Daily Kos

Preempting 60 Minutes tonight

by kos

Wed Sep 08, 2004 at 02:59:19 PM PDT

I've gotten two reports of preemption of tonight's scathing report on Bush's National Guard years on CBS' 60 Minutes.

The first is from KWTV in Oklahoma City (it will air at 3:15 a.m.), the second from Indianapolis.

Both stations claim the move isn't political. Both claims are suspect, at best.

Update: The Oklahoma City affiliate caved. They're showing the program.

Update II: The CBS affiliate in Indianapolis now plans on airing 60 Minutes II at 9 p.m. (rather than its usual 8 p.m. slot) to make way for a special they are running. It was originally going to run at 2:30 a.m.

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  •  OKC (4.00 / 4)

    Looks like OKC is back on

    Blog: Sydneysided. Photoblog: pflog.

    by AggieDemocrat on Wed Sep 08, 2004 at 03:00:44 PM PDT

  •  Bill Moyers (none / 0)

    show was often preempted and usually when there was a controversial (not quite pro-the-gov't-program) guest.

    Pssst ... there are mad men in the White House.

    by banjon on Wed Sep 08, 2004 at 03:04:06 PM PDT

  •  Both IN and OK (none / 0)

    Both IN and OK are solidly red states.

    John McCain a/k/a John Sidney "Grampy McSame"

    by MRL on Wed Sep 08, 2004 at 03:04:16 PM PDT

  •  Both red (none / 0)

    Who controls the past, controls the future. Who controls the present, controls the past. George Orwell

    by moon in the house of moe on Wed Sep 08, 2004 at 03:05:41 PM PDT

  •  Aside from . . . (none / 1)

    Aside from making health care inaccessible to millions, gutting domestic programs, and getting a lot of people killed for no good reason, Bushco is seriously threatening my ability to be surprised.

    Which is why I wouldn't be surprised if they halted "60 Minutes" altogether.  

    Jerks.

    by Spideysense on Wed Sep 08, 2004 at 03:06:05 PM PDT

  •  dont be surprised (4.00 / 2)

    if they cancel wednesday night altogether.  we'll all wake up tomorrow morning just as dumb as ever.

    by usstrippe on Wed Sep 08, 2004 at 03:07:48 PM PDT

  •  But why? (none / 0)

    Not the real reason, but the official reason. What show, according to those stations, is so timely that 60M must be pre-empted?

    What's the difference between Vietnam and Iraq? Bush knew how to get out of Vietnam.

    by strandedlad on Wed Sep 08, 2004 at 03:09:11 PM PDT

  •  I just called the IN station (none / 0)

    it's my local CBS affiliate. Just called them (WISH-TV www.wishtv.com)

    The woman on the phone said it is NOT being preempted. It is being moved back an hour due to a CBS anniversary special?

    She said it was originally scheduled for 2:30am but that was changed and the schedule was arranged so that it would be shown.

    We'll see. I'll be watching tonight to see if they end up showing it. I'm not seeing any sort of "anniversary special" on the official CBS schedule so depending on what happens tonight, I will call CBS again and ask if just Indianapolis was showing this "special."

    xtra-rant.com & indianademclub.org

    by descolada99 on Wed Sep 08, 2004 at 03:12:52 PM PDT

  •  Gee, you'd think . . . (none / 0)


    . . . with those 2 states being as right-wingvery as they are, the TV stations wouldn't be worried about Kerry putting any "dents" in the redness of either.  On the other hand, these stations might be concerned that the brown shirts might get all Frankenstein Movie on their ass and come marching on the buildings with torches and signs saying:  "Truth Sux" and "Rednecks for Rich Boys say, 'Go to Hell' CBS!"

    You never know.  Some of these station managers may not have unlisted numbers, may have daughters and may be very, very afraid of what Right Wingnuts who know little-but-Fox could do if adequately maddened by bad news about 'their boy.'

     

    "We in the gloam, old buddy," he said, "We definitely right in the middle of it." -Larry Brown

    by BenGoshi on Wed Sep 08, 2004 at 03:13:22 PM PDT

  •  Pope Opposes Military Response to Terrorism (4.00 / 3)

    Sorry about posting this here, but I don't have a diary and I thought this was major news:

    Catholic World News is reporting the following:

    Pope opposes military response to terrorism

    Milan, Sep. 08 (CWNews.com) - At a major international conference in Milan this week, two prominent Vatican officials have acknowledged the need for a military campaign to eliminate terrorism. But Pope John Paul II (bio - news) is not ready to endorse a military response.

    The Pope called for firm action against terrorism, but insisted that warfare is not the best approach, in a statement released on Wednesday, September 8.

    The Pope's message was delivered to an international conference organized by the St. Egidio community, meeting in Milan this week. Earlier, Cardinal Renato Martino had said that the battle against terrorism is, in effect, a worldwide war. And Cardinal Walter Kasper (bio - news) had said that the response to terrorism would surely include military action.

    John Paul II reminded the conference participants that in 1993, at another meeting in Milan, world religious leaders had united in a call for peace, insisting that violence should never be motivated by religious faith.

    Since that time, the Pope observed, "unfortunately, new conflicts have arisen." But he insisted: "Peace is always possible!"

    The spread of terrorism across the world "calls for firmness and decision, in fighting the workers of death," the Pope said. But he quickly added that the decisive action against terrorism should not take the form of a military campaign. "Violence begets violence," he said. "War must always be considered a defeat: a defeat of reason and of humanity." He argued that world leaders should seek to root out the primary causes of terrorism, "especially misery, desperation and the emptiness in hearts."

    John Paul II urged international leaders "not to give in to the logic of violence, vendetta, and hatred, but rather to persevere in dialogue." He concluded by expressing the hope that "men soon make a spiritual and cultural leap forward to outlaw war!"

    I suppose the Pope is refusing to play footsie with Bush. First he smacked him on the wrist for the Abu Ghraib and now this politically savvy pope, right after Ratzinger conceded it was okay for Catholics to vote for Kerry, and right after Bishop Burke back tracked on his staments about Catholics not voting for Kerry, clearly questions this administration's judgment and core policy.

    JPII is not a pacifist. He grew up in war torn and Soviet dominated Poland and so he understands the power of evil structures, but he also understands that Poland succesfully resisted soviet communism, less by arms and more by spirit. I think this is a set back for the BC04 Catholic efforts. Kerry just needs to capitalize on this.

    Another Catholic for Kerry

    by onoekeh on Wed Sep 08, 2004 at 03:14:39 PM PDT

  •  How far do IN stations reach? (none / 0)

    Is there reach from the Indy stations into Ohio?  

    by kerrymedia on Wed Sep 08, 2004 at 03:15:40 PM PDT

  •  OKC bump was planned (none / 1)

    At least in OKC, the pre-emption did not have anything to do with the content of 60 Minutes. The St. Jude's fundraiser was printed in the TV guide almost two weeks ago. I used to work at a paper and I know that those TV inserts are done way ahead. I really dont' think there was any conspiracy. 60 minutes II is probably not a big ratings getter here, so they chose that as a good spot for Marlo & friends.

    Okie? Join Sooner Kos. | Why Obama? Because we've never had a president whose name started with O.

    by gypsy on Wed Sep 08, 2004 at 03:20:56 PM PDT

  •  Terrorism Alert Around The Corner (4.00 / 3)

    How soon after the program concludes do you think Tom Ridge calls a press conference to alert us to a serious and credible terrorist threat?  I put the over/under at 15 hours.

    by thebrucie on Wed Sep 08, 2004 at 03:21:12 PM PDT

    •  you got it (none / 0)

      And wasn't there one just after the 1,000th reported US soldier dead in Iraq?  It didn't make many waves, tho.

      by sheldonlanghorne on Wed Sep 08, 2004 at 03:34:07 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  There already was... (none / 0)

      Tom Ridge already came out this week, didn't he?  He raised the financial center alert back to Orange.  Nobody is paying attention to him anymore.  :-/

      -4.25, -6.56

      by fwiffo on Wed Sep 08, 2004 at 03:44:13 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  They will pre-empt the telecast nationally (none / 0)

      for an orange alert on ... er ... "bridges and stuff" ... "lotsa chatter"

      that's my official prediction.

      "Any single man must judge for himself whether circumstances warrant obedience or resistance to the commands of the civil magistrate" John Locke

      by TheGryphon on Wed Sep 08, 2004 at 03:54:26 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Let's play Terror Twister with those Dems! (none / 0)

      I'm sure we all couldn't help but notice how quiet it was before and during the Republican National Convention vis a vis Ridge's calling out of Terror Twister colors. Orange! Red! Green! No, Orange! Not one single alert during that whole lead-up period. All quiet, well except for all of those nice protesters.

      Hmm.

      Contrast with the Democratic National Convention. Anyone remember Randi Rhodes carrying on about how absurd it was for them to be under a threat warning issued for the media covering the event? Apparently, someone was supposedly threatening to blow some of their trailers up. You better watch you report, Randi!

      Osama doesn't want you to tell the Americans the truth, you know.

      And of course, this was all on the heels of the major NYC 'cased years ago' tapes which led to fortress Citibank going up. And the announcement that kicked it all off? That the terrorists were going to try to affect our elections! So, Ridge just said the same thing again yesterday. The perfect bookends for the Convention season! How really thoughtful of them...

      Funny how it's always the Democrats that seem to be the ones in danger...anyone heard anything about the anthrax investigation? That was targeted at media down in Florida and Dems as well. Truth is stranger than fiction...and I'm still waiting for our very own Deep Throat to help us sort out all of this mess.

      Water that Twister board down. Ridge is just getting us warmed up.

      On PTSD Combat | Moving a Nation to Care

      by ilona on Wed Sep 08, 2004 at 08:51:08 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  It will backfire (none / 0)

    No matter how red the state, this sort of hanky-panky ALWAYS backfires, and can do more damage to Bush in the long run than if they never called attention to it by trying to suppress it.

    Dumb, typical.   Doomed to defeat.

    by arthura on Wed Sep 08, 2004 at 03:23:30 PM PDT

  •  Oklahoma station's home page (none / 0)

    Features the 60 minutes II story on it's front page now on the left side.  It does not mention any schedule change.  Of course the part that really kicks ass is that a Republican State Rep. was jailed today and the front page of the site is dominated by this dude in handcuffs!

    http://www.newsok.com/

    Btw, is there a link to who the fundraiser was supposed to be for?  Perhaps some turkee to show some good will?

    -Mutt

    by Muttley66 on Wed Sep 08, 2004 at 03:35:58 PM PDT

    •  aoeu (none / 0)

      from one of the diaries on the matter: The time was bought by St. Jude's hospital for a fundraising program called "A Time to Live" I support Marlo and all, but this sucks.

      turtles consider
      every single vote deeply
      yet always vote dem

      by TealVeal on Wed Sep 08, 2004 at 03:41:39 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Luv my HOMETOWN - way to go Indy !! (2.00 / 2)

    This the same "town" that refused to show "Tales from the City" etc...
    INDIANAPOLIS MEDIA > TV - Newspapers and City Movers and Shakers are all Republican. Remember Indiana is the First state that Tom Brokaw will call for "W" on election night. As it alwasy is. Though in 1996 Clinton hung in there until 9:00 at night - OMG. It's just "W"rong Indiana to be so ass backwards. They must want to proteck them Hoosiers from the lies of 60 minutes - surely God's choosed one (George) (Indiana beleives this you know) could have never been like what those evel 60 minutes peopel describe - all a fabrication and must be stopped. Go Indiana Go !! away

    ObamaNation 2009!..... Rebecca > www.Kaplan4Oakland.org (4 coveted City-At-Large Council Seat)..... Gavin Newsom Governor California 2010......

    by AustinSF on Wed Sep 08, 2004 at 03:49:20 PM PDT

    •  Um. (4.00 / 5)

      Skip the generalizations, please. Yeah, we're as red as a red state can be.  Yeah, we've got more than our fair share of fundies, freepers and freedom (fry) fighters.  But there's a solid, and growing, number of Democrats who are getting spine transplants around here-- generalizing all Hoosiers isn't helping your cause.

      by Kaj on Wed Sep 08, 2004 at 03:54:49 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  OK - what is your take on Indiana Right Now? (none / 0)

        Just Curious. Are they going to keep the Governors Mansion? etc...

        I get constant reports that is is pretty fucked up there right now. More did your heals in Republican partisan than in a long time.

        I am told that if you say anything against GEORGE people will physically leave the room.

        Your take? I lived there for 38 years...got a right to comment.

        ObamaNation 2009!..... Rebecca > www.Kaplan4Oakland.org (4 coveted City-At-Large Council Seat)..... Gavin Newsom Governor California 2010......

        by AustinSF on Wed Sep 08, 2004 at 04:05:36 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Wha? (none / 0)

          I'm really not trying to be snarky, but you wrote:

          More did your heals in Republican partisan than in a long time.

          I've been wracking my brain trying to figure out what this means, with no luck. What does it mean? Help!

          "A shark on whisky is pretty risky; A shark on beer is a beer engineer." - Space Ghost

          by Gaska on Wed Sep 08, 2004 at 04:25:12 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  It's not THAT bad (3.66 / 3)

          I also tire of the constant generalizations made about Hoosiers on this site and others.

          It's not THAT bad. Yes, there are parts of the state where people are VERY conservative, but hell, there are parts of EVERY state like that.  Most people will have a debate/argument with you but they won't leave the room. I have regular debates with some of the right-wingers at work and we generally all get worked up but once the debate is done we can be cordial and friendly afterwards.

          Some people like to make things here to be much worse than they really are.  

          *We have a good chance at holding on to the Governor's Mansion, although Kernan is in a tough fight. It'll be a close race either way it goes (not the landslide Republicanism many people see Indiana as)

          *We should have no trouble holding onto our three (of 9) Dem House seats (IN-1,7,9) and we have a chance to take two more back (IN-2,8). Even if we don't their strong showings are evidence of a good and growing number Democrats-with-spines in the state.

          *We'll have no trouble holding onto our one Dem Senator, Evan Bayh. Say what you will about by at times being too conservative or willing to compromise - he's another D in the Senate and regularly wins by large margins.

          *Something like 7 of the 9 largest cities in Indiana have Democrat Mayors.

          So things aren't as bad as some people make them out to be. Yeah we have our share of fundies and freepers and right wing crazies, but no more than many other states.

          xtra-rant.com & indianademclub.org

          by descolada99 on Wed Sep 08, 2004 at 05:08:19 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  What I see.... (3.50 / 2)

          I've regularly worn some sort of anti-Bush paraphenalia for over a year now. I always have a button (finally got a Kerry/Edwards button!) pinned to my purse and try, at least one day a week, to wear an anti-Bush t-shirt when I'm out and about.

          The reason I do this is two-fold: Visibility for the campaign, obviously; and to plant the idea that Bush isn't the only alternative; and (okay, make that three-fold--no one expects the Spanish Inquisition!) finally, as sort of an outreach to potential Dem voters.

          Through the summer, I've had two people comment negatively--one in a humorous fashion, one in a nervous, defensive, Republican Youth fashion. Beyond that, I've talked to a great number of people who are enthusiastic about getting Bush out of office. Some of these are die-hard Dems--I met a 79 y.o. woman at the grocery store who said she was a life-long Republican until she "got some sense" and she's been volunteering for Dems ever since. One older woman told me she was a life-long Repub but she really doesn't like George Bush; then she reached into her purse to show me her printout of "George Bush's Resume". Finally, I get people who say, "Ooh, I like your button/t-shirt/bumpersticker! I thought I was the only one!" These people I love because that's how I felt before I got involved in the Dean campaign. I'm so glad to tell them that no, they're not alone.

          So, that's what I see. Will Indiana go for Kerry? Not bloody likely, but hey, we're trying. Will we go Dem in some future election? Count on it! The demographics are changing, baby.

          On Kernan, I've just started seeing new ads for him in the past couple days. That will hopefully make a world of difference in the race. They look good: slick but folksy.

          tragically un-hip
          ..- .... --..-- / --- -.- .-.-.-

          -5.88, -6.82

          by Debby on Wed Sep 08, 2004 at 08:25:17 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Indiana a "resource state" (none / 0)


            The Kerry campaign considers Indiana a "resource state", whose volunteers are eagerly encouraged to spend some time in battleground states.  

            While we have plenty of Democrats in office, they tend to be more conservative than the national party.  This is, after all, Evan Bayh's home state, the state that elected him to two terms as Governor and then sent him to the Senate.  

            For this reason, ignoring Indiana for Michigan and Ohio makes for good, conventional strategy.  

            by Yamaneko on Wed Sep 08, 2004 at 10:41:42 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

  •  St. Jude's? (none / 0)

    Interesting....I'm looking at St. Jude's website and can't find any indication that they have any kind of program or event on tonight.  Anyone else see anything?

    http://www.stjude.org/

    Thanks to all who called KWTV!

    by lrhoke on Wed Sep 08, 2004 at 03:54:32 PM PDT

  •  Recommend (none / 0)

    this diary!

    Bush in '88...

    CONNIE CHUNG: The problem, though, would be is if, indeed, made several phone calls or some people made phone calls on his (Dan Quayle's) behalf to get him into the National Guard. I mean, did that happen to you? Were you...

    DUBYA (interrupting): No. I don't think so. But in those days, people were going into the service all different branches. And if you want to go into the National Guard, I guess sometimes people make calls. I don't see anything wrong with, a matter of fact I'm glad he served his country. And serving in the National Guard is serving in the military. They probably should have called the National Guard up in those days. Maybe we'd have done better in Vietnam.

    by reef the dog on Wed Sep 08, 2004 at 04:38:04 PM PDT

    •  Reef (none / 1)

      You have my undying respect for digging up this gem.  What an asshat!  I just do not understand how he continually gets positive poll ratings for his "likability".  He is an asshole!  The arrogance and hostility exuding from his pores just make me want to puke.  How can this bastard fool almost half the population?

      I know, I know; almost half the population is just like him.  Jeez, what the Hell has happened to us?

      "It's been headed this way since the World began, when a vicious creature made the jump from Monkey to Man."--Elvis Costello

      by BigOkie on Wed Sep 08, 2004 at 07:02:43 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Texans for Truth on Hardball (none / 0)

    Joe Barton (R-TX) was the counterpoint to the guy from TfT had an interesting spin on 527s, saying that the Texans for Truth was "another example of a 527 not doing a whole lot of good."

    So Chris asked him if the Swift Boats Liars 527 fit the same bill, and all Barton could do was smile and say, "I have no comment on that." HA

    by bostonmass on Wed Sep 08, 2004 at 04:46:36 PM PDT

  •  Baton Rouge... (none / 0)

    St. Jude's special is running here as well. Anyone know of when the 60 minutes show will run in this area?

    My political compass: 1.38, -4.56

    by mld530 on Wed Sep 08, 2004 at 05:03:55 PM PDT

    •  Me too. (none / 0)

      I'm in BR too and all I got is Marlo and St. Jude.  Is it the CBS affiliate or Cox Cable?
      WAFB is the station...

      Although children with cancer is very sad. it was another sadness altogether that I hoped to watch this evening.

      We are stardust.We are golden. We are caught in the devil's bargain...And we've got to get ourselves back to the garden.

      by Voodoo on Wed Sep 08, 2004 at 05:55:36 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  WAFB contact info (none / 0)

        WAFB 9 Baton Rouge, LA 70801 (225) 383-9999 Of course, when you call them, you get a recording with no chance to leave a message or actually talk to anyone at the station, except during business hours. Maybe we should try calling the news emergency line. Seems they bill themselves as "Louisiana's News Leader", so I think it's sufficiently urgent to warrant calling the news emergency line. "News Emergency Line" (225) 215-4825

        by vought on Wed Sep 08, 2004 at 06:14:53 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  WAFB programming director (none / 0)

        I called WAFB's news emergency line, and was told to call back tomorrow to speak with Programming Director Kathy Kadrosky at (225) 215-4705.

        I will, and to those other denizens of Louisiana's state capitol, I encourage you too as well. The woman I spoke with sounded harried; I think she may have gotten another call or two about this.

        Make sure to let tham know that they're not doing their job as "Louisiana's News Leader" if they're not going to actually show news.

        by vought on Wed Sep 08, 2004 at 06:19:19 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Thanks. (none / 0)

          for the WAFB info. I emailed Kadrosky, but wont hold my breath on a reply.   I was curt and sarcastic....couldn't help it.

          To think that pressure from these people will force local stations to carry water for this phony infuriates me.  I plan to write a letter today to the editor of the Advocate.

          I really wish Louisiana would go blue for Kerry but that could be way too optimistic.

          anyway thanks for the info.
          We all need to hang in there.

          We are stardust.We are golden. We are caught in the devil's bargain...And we've got to get ourselves back to the garden.

          by Voodoo on Thu Sep 09, 2004 at 06:13:22 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

  •  Watching it Now (none / 0)

    ..."Oh, The General Rose of Texas"...

    As usual, Daddy Bush kept his fingerprints off the affair, but a word in a friend's ear to another friend, etc.

    Not so scathing so far...

    by ripdash on Wed Sep 08, 2004 at 05:11:23 PM PDT

  •  Holy Shit..... (4.00 / 2)

    60 Minutes is supposed to be on right now, but we have a rain storm in the area which could possibily develop into a tornado, and they've interupted the show since 8:00. The weather guy is just flicking through maps, talking about rain, showing footage of the rain, showing individual streets where it is raining. It's still on as I type this. Holy shit, he's been talking about rain and flipping through maps and it's now 8:12 PM. He has been talking about rain for 12 minutes. Is 60 minutes airing the Bush piece at the beginning of the show? Holy shit, he is still just talking about the rain. 13 minutes now. I think Mr. Weatherman will be on blabbering about rain until the Bush piece is over. Unfucking believable. Well, you guys let me know how the Bush story goes! Us here in Richmond, VA have no idea.

    by BobIngersoll on Wed Sep 08, 2004 at 05:15:01 PM PDT

    •  the Bush story (none / 0)

      ran at the beginning.   They also included some memo written by Bush's former commander.  I found it all to be rather scathing to Bush.  It was also fun to watch Bartlett squirm in his seat over this,

      "There is no job that is America's God-given right anymore." -Carly Fiorina CEO, Hewlett-Packard

      by baffled on Wed Sep 08, 2004 at 05:22:23 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  It was on up here in NoVa. (none / 0)

      Just watched it.  Not a bad piece.  Not as hard-hitting as I would have liked, but there were some new bits of information in there to keep Chimpy's feet to the fire for a while.

      by ericy on Wed Sep 08, 2004 at 05:23:05 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  DoH! Bob, I'm in RIC too... (none / 0)

      Was that a belabored meteorology lesson, or what? Definitely a demonstration on how to "stretch" to fill time.

      Rattle something off to Pete Maroney <pmaroney@wtvr.com>. I just did:

      Peter Maroney -Vice President/General Manager
      WTVR TV 6

      Mr. Maroney,

      As a Richmond resident and long-time viewer of News 6, I can appreciate your commitment to airing local weather developments. But as an interested voter, I can only hope your substantial pre-emption of 60 Minutes II and it's widely heralded story on our presidential candidates' service to country will be rebroadcast as soon as possible, preferably at a similarly accessible hour. I'm sure your commitment to an informed public extends beyond repetitive CGI and storm cell arcana, and, while I do like the work of Robert Duvall, that remnant of the complete show was not why I gave your channel 60 minutes of my family's time tonight.

      by fouro on Wed Sep 08, 2004 at 06:25:59 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Super Long Radar Coverage (none / 0)

        Yeah, my girlfriend told me I was being paranoid, but dammit it just seemed like he was intentionally stretching the time out! It seemed like he wasn't talking about anything! We would have been just as informed on the weather if there was a blank screen with a tornado warning scrolling across the bottom for half an hour. Oh well....wrong place at the wrong time I guess. I'll drop a line to Mr. Maroney...

        by BobIngersoll on Wed Sep 08, 2004 at 08:45:56 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  If you Can Pick Them Up (none / 0)

      there is channel 11 and 13, both out of the Norfolk area, I believe.  I have NBC 29 over here, from Charlottesville (NBC). We have a lot of trouble out here in the country (60 miles west of Richmond)even seeing the local stations to begin with.

      Mark

      It all happens in the Heartland of Virginia

      by Dems2004 on Wed Sep 08, 2004 at 07:00:57 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  60 minutes (none / 0)

    How about some running commentary for those of us on the west coast?  Thanks!

    The test of our progress is not whether we add more to the abundance of those who have much; it is whether we provide enough for those who have too little. -FDR

    by Jeff in CA on Wed Sep 08, 2004 at 05:16:49 PM PDT

    •  'k (none / 0)

      1Lt. G.W. Bush asked his C.O. if he could please be excused from drill through November because his daddy got him a job in Alabama and he didn't have time to fulfill the TANG duties that kept him from getting his ass blown off in Vietnam like the tens of thousands of draftees had by 1972. He was ordered to report for a pyhsical, proceeded to BLOW that off and his C.O. had the sneaking suspicion the young officer had gone over his head to get out of the physical and out of drill.

      Well... that's not verbatim, but that's the gist of it.

      "I am a Democrat without prefix, suffix or apology." - Sam Rayburn

      by sandra1113 on Wed Sep 08, 2004 at 05:24:29 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Very short peice (none / 0)

    very blah. i wanted some of Dubya's blood spraying across the screen.

    http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2007-02-19-mccain-roe_x.htm

    by joojooluv on Wed Sep 08, 2004 at 05:20:54 PM PDT

    •  Are you kidding me? (none / 1)

      The macho manly, flight sutied commander and cheif lied directly into the camera, disobeyed direct orders to take a physical, failed to show up for duty, and was grounded for not meeting ANG standards?  

      What the fuck was blah about that?

      John McCain

      by dbratl on Wed Sep 08, 2004 at 05:23:54 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I (none / 1)

        think it was a little 'nuanced'. ; )

        Maybe I am just completely benumbed by Bush's baldfaced lies, but I don't know what impact it will have.

        Also, when was the last time anyne questioned Dubya/ i hope that starts a trend.

        http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2007-02-19-mccain-roe_x.htm

        by joojooluv on Wed Sep 08, 2004 at 05:28:05 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  NOT only that (none / 1)

        National Guard duty is ONE weekend a month, right? And as far as Guard duty goes, it's not like he was stuck in an armory all weekend. He was at ELLINGTON FIELD, flying a FIGHTER JET. What kind of person wouldn't dig that? A sissified, spoiled rotten Yale cheerleader, maybe?
        Hmmmm....

        "I am a Democrat without prefix, suffix or apology." - Sam Rayburn

        by sandra1113 on Wed Sep 08, 2004 at 05:32:08 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  It could be more damaging (none / 0)

      if it's spoon fed to the "mainstream" voter ... it could also make it harder to bat down.

      To sum up the piece:

      It's NOT just that daddy pulled strings to keep his son out of Vietnam ... we all knew that.

      It's NOT just that he didn't show up for his physical.

      a lot of people shrug when you point this stuff out. "He's a rich kid, what do you expect?" they say.

      The damning part, the new part, was that his commanding officer, confronted with political pressure, put a memo in Dubya's file THAT HE DIDN'T MEET STANDARDS, AND THAT HE DISOBEYED A DIRECT ORDER.

      Olberman (seen w/ DVR) is all over it too.

      One Tin Liberal Street Fighter Rides Away ...

      by Madman in the marketplace on Wed Sep 08, 2004 at 05:32:17 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  ahhh . . . time for an open thread on this subject (none / 0)

    Did anyone just see the same memo I just saw?

    Bush was suspended from flying for refusing a physicial and "not meeting the standards of the Texas Air National Guard"?

    !!!!

    Gahhhh, they might as well have a cup a cup of cocaine saturated pee saved from the 70's.

    John McCain

    by dbratl on Wed Sep 08, 2004 at 05:21:25 PM PDT

  •  Wow pretty hard hitting (none / 1)

    I am sure others will post better but they had files from his direct commander that contradicted most of his claims in the past.... Looked bad for them, Lets watch the spin misters work.... Pretty much what we thought but it will lead others forward to what he was doing in Alabama etc.

    Lots of people see the world in Black and White but it is mostly just shades of grey.

    by Davinci on Wed Sep 08, 2004 at 05:21:28 PM PDT

    •  The other thing that was especially nice about the (none / 0)

      piece was that they shopwed clips of Bush in younger days speaking directly into the camera saying things like "How many times do I have to tell you, no one pulled any strings for me to get into the guard."  preceeded and followed by this guy saying, "I pulled strings to get him in".

      Plus, most people are probably too slow to get the not-so-subtle innuendo, but the combo of the "failed to meet TANG standards" with "Refused to take a physical" SCREAMS substance abuser.

      I can't believe the tabloids will be able to resist the Drug theme once the Kitty Kelly story gets out there.  There is serious blood in the water, and cocaine use is a lot harder for soccar moms to swallow than a little pot smoking.

      John McCain

      by dbratl on Wed Sep 08, 2004 at 05:28:01 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Just saw it (none / 0)

    According to Dan Bartlett, the Kerry campaign -- through, I dunno, seances??? -- to get a Colonel Killian (dead since 1984) to write memos that cast doubt upon Bush's military record.

    One memo (unseen until today) notes that Killian grounded Bush not only because he failed to take the physical exam (we knew that, right?) but before he had failed to perform up to USAF/TANG standards.  

    by Spideysense on Wed Sep 08, 2004 at 05:23:33 PM PDT

  •  Kos must be typing away..... (none / 0)

    Tab or maybe he has to wait an hour.... But there should be an open thread on this....

    Please Post an Open thread Kos.... It sounds like he is fighting many server battles also maybe we are in a window they are using....

    Lots of people see the world in Black and White but it is mostly just shades of grey.

    by Davinci on Wed Sep 08, 2004 at 05:24:20 PM PDT

  •  That was it? (none / 0)

    I don't get it. What's the big deal? OK, they now have documentary evidence that there was political pressure to get Bush into the ANG, and political pressure to get him out of drills to go to Alabama. His CO was complaining in private memos about the pressure.

    So? Why is this so damaging? A well-connected kid has people in high places pull strings for him. Didn't we know that already?

    I think W can still truthfully say that it was not a direct request from his father to Barnes. It seems to have propagated through the old boy network.

    So somebody tell me why this is a smoking gun.

    by rppa on Wed Sep 08, 2004 at 05:26:26 PM PDT

    •  The twist (none / 1)

      New to me, anyway, if not to others: that he was grounded not only for failing to take the physical, but for not meeting USAF/TANG standards.  

      by Spideysense on Wed Sep 08, 2004 at 05:28:20 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  eye roll (none / 0)

      How can you not see how damning that was?

      John McCain

      by dbratl on Wed Sep 08, 2004 at 05:29:05 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Because he LIED about it (4.00 / 2)

      Bush has said nobody pulled strings to get him into the guard, that he just walked in and signed up.  He said he served honorably, when obviously he did not. He said he didn't take his physical because the plane he flew was no longer being used.  That's another lie.  He said he "worked it out with the military" to end his guard service early.  As we saw in the Boston Globe, Bush promised to sign up with a Boston unit but never did.

      He lied repeatedly about his military service.  That's a huge story.  If Clinton can get impeached for lying about sex, well then we can at least call Bush a liar and a scumbag for this much more important coverup.

      Old Man McCain.com - the best McCain attack blog on the web!

      by existenz on Wed Sep 08, 2004 at 05:36:02 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Me neither (none / 0)

      I was expecting a bombshell, but there wasn't one.  Barnes didn't tell us anything we didn't already know.

      by cdiaz71 on Wed Sep 08, 2004 at 05:37:16 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  It's the credibility factor. (none / 1)

      We already know that he was an irresponsible youth. But, he has "reformed."

      But then why do Bush's accounts (going all the way past 2000) differ from the data?

      This is a real credibility issue. It's one thing to be young and irresponsible, but its another thing to be POTUS and lying about being young and irresponsible.

      For years, Republicans have stated that Government is incompetent. Now they are in charge, and proving it.

      by B Rubble on Wed Sep 08, 2004 at 05:38:17 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  And (none / 0)

        He CONTINUES to lie about this.  That's the corker.  So much for being born again.  He may be forgiven for his youthful indiscretions, but not for his "grown up" ones.  (Did I just say W was grownup?  I take that back.)

        Evolution is so obsolete, gotta stamp your hands and clap your feet! Gotta dance like a monkey, dance like a monkey, child.

        by espresso on Wed Sep 08, 2004 at 07:42:54 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  Enough smoke to wake some up (none / 0)


      So somebody tell me why this is a smoking gun.

      The real issue is whether or not there is enough new information here so that the other media will look at this.  It may be old news to most of us that this is the way things worked  back then  -- the way as that professor said 'power feeds power' -- but there are a lot of people who are in denial about the way some lived and some died back then and it would not take too much to yank a big scab off of a not really healed wound.


      To the extent that this happens it has to help Kerry (the guy who could have gotten out of going but ask to go) and hurt Bush  (the guy who not only didn't go but stiffed the Air Force at the end). 


      I suppose the next shoe in all of this may be finding out just why was it that Bush never got in trouble for what he did.  The (now deceased)  CO who tried to order Bush to take the physical said in a written file memo at the time that he sensed that Bush had somehow gone over his head.  Where might that have been?  How might that be discovered?  I say bring it on.


      by Fred in Vermont on Wed Sep 08, 2004 at 06:00:40 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  OK (none / 0)

        The issue is that Bush is on the record in very recent history, post-2000 as saying things which we know are not true.

        So I guess what's damning here is not the ancient history, but the recent lies. And lies upon lies. That's the way to play this stuff. And perhaps as the evidence of new bald-faced lies piles up, some of the willfully ignorant will reach critical mass and realize they can no longer vote for the guy.

        I can see this story as being part of all that, but I can't see it as being sexy enough for the AP to create screaming headlines. Still, we'll see what the SCLM says tomorrow morning.

        by rppa on Wed Sep 08, 2004 at 06:52:00 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  You've been involved (none / 0)

      in the digging up of this information for several months. You've kept up as it's unfolded. A lot of information on this and other web-sites is examined and chewed over but never reaches the public.

      The average person out there (I know, I've been registering voters) is going to be taken by surprise. The problem is, just like the AP article this morning, the meaning of a lot of this stuff is going to pass them by.

      By the way, there was no seance. Killian's widow released his papers.

      by kateNC on Wed Sep 08, 2004 at 06:48:29 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  One thing that no one (none / 0)

      on either side ever seems to comment on much is how a lot of airmen in Vietnam were literally getting their asses shot off in May 1972.  The intensification of the air war at that time coincides almost exactly with the record of bush's sudden reluctance to fly.

      Now that might fly in the face of the conventional Democratic wisdom that Bush was totally safe in the Air Guard during the conflict.  On the other hand, it might reinforce even more greatly the theory that Bush is a complete and utter pussy whenever his personal safety is at stake.

      by BCF on Wed Sep 08, 2004 at 08:46:45 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Summary (none / 0)

    Bush was given a direct order to report for a physical.

    In a later memo explaining the suspension, the officer detailed not only the lack of physical, but Bush's disobedience.

    Can you still get an honorable discharge after disobeying a direct, written order?

    by Craziel on Wed Sep 08, 2004 at 05:26:53 PM PDT

  •  Just one point to make... (none / 0)

    Aside from wearing a medal his flight unit was not awarded with in his pic with Dad which is  punishable by 6 months suspension... (remember the missing time?)

    One more thing to say- BARNES Bitches!!!!

    Conyers is America's Conscience.

    by Mr Murder on Wed Sep 08, 2004 at 05:27:38 PM PDT

  •  People Do Not Care! (none / 1)

    Oh course he got special favors.  Everyone knows that.  The dump sheeple don't care.  

    by Evie on Wed Sep 08, 2004 at 05:28:29 PM PDT

  •  this matter needs to be connected to two issues (4.00 / 2)

    1.  Bush's integrity-  point out every lie he has told about it, especially after being "young and irresponsible."

    2. He's sending Guard members for repeated tours of duty in a war zone and he could not even show up stateside on the weekend?  How does he prosecute deserters?  

    This needs to happen to keep in relevant and to have real legs.  Part of a larger "Bush misleads" meme.  Can't be trusted.  Isn't straightforward and honest, etc.

    Does George Stephanapolous love America as much as you do?

    by PrometheusSpeaks on Wed Sep 08, 2004 at 05:30:02 PM PDT

  •  Sorry, I just didn't think it drew any blood... (none / 0)

    The piece painted a picture of a young man who got preferential treatment - a lazy doofus who traded on his dad's name to get out of trouble, and make his way in life...THIS IS THE SAME WAY HE WON THE PRESIDENCY.  No one cares, or at least anyone who DOES care is already voting against him.  People expect rich brats to be treated better, and they are o.k. with it.  It's the same mentality that gives scholarships to quarterbacks but not to science-geeks.  

    --------
    Please don't bite the heads off the chocolate Elvises.

    by PBJ Diddy on Wed Sep 08, 2004 at 05:32:13 PM PDT

    •  you have a point (4.00 / 2)

      but it also showed not only that he failed to obey a direct order.

      I can see this resonating with military families & people actually serving.

      It also reinforced that he's a liar (a point that John Harwood from the WSJ made very strongly).

      One Tin Liberal Street Fighter Rides Away ...

      by Madman in the marketplace on Wed Sep 08, 2004 at 05:36:43 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  He claims he didn't disobey a direct order, (none / 0)

        and though you and I both know that's a lie, there is no evidence to prove it one way or the other...some dead guy's memo just isn't damning enough for people to change their minds about this guy...the other thing too, Bush is BORN-AGAIN, and for his base, that means that all he has to do is say anything that happened before 1980 doesn't count because he hadn't yet found Jesus.  Remember, Reagan had been a democrat for years, but the fundies didn't hold that against him because he "saw the light".  George's people will give him a pass on this one too.

        --------
        Please don't bite the heads off the chocolate Elvises.

        by PBJ Diddy on Wed Sep 08, 2004 at 05:50:09 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Sure (none / 0)

          Bush's people gave him a pass on the Plame Affair, and the huge Medicare bill, and the huge NCLB bill, and the no WMD, and the Israeli spook story, and Aug 6th, 2001 memo, and the trust of KGB agent Putin, and a host of other things that would have cause apoplexy if done by Bill Clinton.  

          And they won't be deterred by cowardice and irresponsibility in his youth either.

          But there are a lot of voters that will not give him a pass on any of these issues if they are presented to them in a memorable way, and close to the election.

          So, kudos to Dan Rather.  Luke, I am your father.

          Booman Tribune

          by BooMan23 on Wed Sep 08, 2004 at 06:01:45 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Yes, exactly (none / 0)

            I also don't think that military families, vets and active duty military, who traditionally lean to the Republicans (or so the conventional wisdom goes) are as willing to forgive failing to serve honorably.

            I could care less about his fundi base: they are dead to me. Center right people, who may hold to the right out of a sense of values or tradition, could very well be disgusted by this.

            I do recognize that nothing seems to wear Bush down, but I'm kind of hoping for a sandblasting effect: the paint doesn't start to peal right away, but after its battered by one tiny particle after another, it gets worn away ...

            One Tin Liberal Street Fighter Rides Away ...

            by Madman in the marketplace on Wed Sep 08, 2004 at 06:29:19 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  I still think (none / 0)

              that we should focus like a laser beam on the time period between 8:48 am Sept.11, when CNN began broadcasting live footage of the North Tower burning, and 10:15 am, when Bush finally authorized the downing of civilian aircraft.

              What the fuck was the President thinking?

              How could he assume that a plane hitting the WTC was pilot error after getting 40 seperate warnings from George Tenet that al-Qaeda was looking to attack us, and after having been threatened by aeriel drones in Genoa, Italy in July, and after receiving a memo in August that said bin Laden was determined to attack us in the United States, possibly using hijacked airplanes?

              And even after the second crash, when all doubt was removed, he did nothing to protect the Pentagon or the Capitol building, which was filled with the entire elected federal government at the time.

              I would just hammer this and hammer it?

              Why?

              Why did you send the bin Laden's away and inter innocent Arabs?

              Why did he cover up the Saudi funding of the hijackers?

              Why?

              That is a sandblaster to my liking.

              Booman Tribune

              by BooMan23 on Wed Sep 08, 2004 at 06:43:40 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  his cabal (none / 0)

                has built up such a big myth, a myth that many Americans are terrified to give up on.

                The common thread that runs through his whole life: he is a man with no sense of honor. He lies with impunity. He assumes that people will kowtow to him (which they usually have). He feels no need to meet his obligations, to actually show up, to do his best to meet the expectations that people have of him, expectations that he helped create.

                He has no honor.

                One Tin Liberal Street Fighter Rides Away ...

                by Madman in the marketplace on Wed Sep 08, 2004 at 06:53:56 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  The people (none / 0)

                  I don't know if the people are terrified to give up on the myth or not.

                  When 9/11 happened I was in a business meeting.  I had been very active in the Bradley campaign and quite vocal about how dangerous it was to put Bush in charge of the country, no matter how safe the world looked in 2000.

                  Still, I was surprised when I got back to my desk around 10:00 that about a dozen co-workers had assembed at my desk and wanted to know what I thought about what was happening.

                  "Do you think Bush will know what to do?"

                  "Jesus, you were right, we do need a President who knows about the world"

                  etc.

                  I just looked at them and said, "It doesn't matter.  He's our President now.  He needs our support. We'll find a way to get through this."

                  Bush let me down, and he let my coworkers down.  I was 100% behind him on 9/11, and I am not 99% against him.

                  We all wanted to believe in our President because the alternative was too terrifying.  But as the election approaches, the need to continue believing that myth is ebbing.

                  The time to attack his perceived strength is October.

                  Booman Tribune

                  by BooMan23 on Wed Sep 08, 2004 at 07:08:30 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  It was probably (none / 0)

                    a little easier for you to realize how much he was letting us all down because you were suspicious going in. A lot of Americans knew little or nothing about him, and didn't want to. It's going to be harder to separate him from the office for people who desperately wanted a President to step up. The White House did everything they could to feed that image.

                    I wish I could say that I was behind him on that day, but I'd hated him and his junta for a long time. That so many of the criminals involved in Iran/Contra and the Latin American death squads had positions of power terrified me. I had a friend who's little brother had interned at the FBI for a few months. I had a long talk with him afterwords (this would be the late '90s), and he kept telling me about this guy named bin Laden, and that the agents he'd worked for were really concerned about him.

                    My greatest fear that Bush had dropped the ball, and that he wasn't up to the task, was confirmed by that weak-assed videotaped statement he made after flying around the country.

                    None of this is to say that I'm smarter than most: I've been obsessed with the wackos on the right since Reagan. I'm suspicious of everything they do. It's easier for people like me to see through the lies. In fact, I used to try hard to get other points of view, just to keep myself honest.

                    Anyway, all this rambling is to point out that the less invested you are in the history of Bush and his administration, and the more invested you are in the idea of bipartisanship, the harder it is to see through the Republican agitprop.

                    I'm hoping that the next couple of weeks will wear down more people, forcing them to actually look beyond their comfort zone.

                    One Tin Liberal Street Fighter Rides Away ...

                    by Madman in the marketplace on Wed Sep 08, 2004 at 07:22:29 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  I agree (none / 0)

                      I was only behind Bush on 9/11 because I felt I had no choice.  He was our President, he was the only one to turn to, to protect us and punish the perpetrators.

                      I remember thinking that the only good thing about Bush being President was that the right couldn't blame Gore and Clinton for the fiasco.

                      Or could they?

                      The reason people congrgated at my desk was twofold.  They knew that cared and knew about politics and international affairs, and they knew that I despised Bush and didn't trust him on national security.

                      Well, I showed a stiff upper lip that day, and I was worried about a lot more than politics.

                      Nevertheless, the difference between now and then is that we knew back then that Bush would be President for another 3 and a half years.  We needed to believe in him.

                      On November 2nd, we can cast him out.  We no longer NEED to believe in him.

                      That is why October is the perfect time to re-open the day of 9/11 and tear at the heart of the myth that Bush came into his own and all that horsecrap.

                      Just rip him twin tower sized assholes over his performance that day.

                      Booman Tribune

                      by BooMan23 on Wed Sep 08, 2004 at 07:45:49 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]