Daily Kos

CONFIRMED: WP is a CW if used to cause harm through toxic properties

Thu Nov 10, 2005 at 05:48:46 AM PDT

First of all, let me say that this diary is not about the morality of the actions alleged in the RAI documentary. I assume that all dkos readers have more or less convergent opinions on that matter.

This diary addresses the issue of whether or not the illegal application of white phosphorus as a weapon constitutes use of a chemical weapon. I know that this issue has been argued back and forth in recent days, but it seems to me that a central point has not been widely addressed, and so I take the liberty of turning my comments into a diary, but adding the important confirmation below. For the reasons mentioned at the end of this diary, I also maintain that the issue of whether or not the US is in breach of the Chemical Weapons Convention is very important, at the same time as this does not subtract from the importance of the separate issue of whether or not the US in fact burns and/or melts children.

Also, the accusation that the alleged illegal use of WP by the US constitutes use of a chemical weapon under international law, seems to evoke a lot of anger. With all due respect for each and every dkos reader: I don’t care. If anyone should wish to scream at me for this, they should do so. I still think it is important that this point be addressed, not because of the morality of the alleged actions, but because of the potential for legal action against the people in command, including those at the top of the US government. I will also say that I am merely a layperson, and should the articles and quotes I use turn out to be complete humbug, I shall stand corrected, but until that time I maintain what is the central argument below.

My central point is that the argument: "It's an incendiary round, not a chemical weapon," does not hold up. The one does not exclude the other.

Wikipedia says the following about the Chemical Warfare, the Chemical Weapons Convention (ratified by the US in 1997) and its General Purpose Criterion:

Chemical warfare is different from the use of conventional weapons or nuclear weapons because the destructive effects of chemical weapons are not primarily due to any explosive force. […]

Under this [Chemical Weapons] Convention, any toxic chemical, regardless of its origin, is considered as a chemical weapon unless it is used for purposes that are not prohibited (an important legal definition, known as the General Purpose Criterion)."

Thus, WP is a chemical weapon if it is used illegally. It does not matter if it is also an incendiary. The CWC classification of dual use chemicals depends not only on their properties, but also on their use. Any illegal use of WP as a weapon renders it a chemical weapon under the CWC.

The quote above should address both the issue of chemicals in bullets, TNT, etc., as well as the question of whether or not an incendiary which is not named in the CWC would also be classified as a chemical weapon if used illegally.

To quote the CONVENTION ON THE PROHIBITION OF THE DEVELOPMENT, PRODUCTION, STOCKPILING AND USE OF CHEMICAL WEAPONS AND ON THEIR DESTRUCTION directly (also quoted by BigBite and others):

For the purposes of this Convention:

1. "Chemical Weapons" means the following, together or separately:

(a) Toxic chemicals and their precursors, except where intended for purposes not prohibited under this Convention, as long as the types and quantities are consistent with such purposes;

(b) Munitions and devices, specifically designed to cause death or other harm through the toxic properties of those toxic chemicals specified in subparagraph (a), which would be released as a result of the employment of such munitions and devices;

(c) Any equipment specifically designed for use directly in connection with the employment of munitions and devices specified in subparagraph (b).

2. "Toxic Chemical" means:

Any chemical which through its chemical action on life processes can cause death, temporary incapacitation or permanent harm to humans or animals. This includes all such chemicals, regardless of their origin or of their method of production, and regardless of whether they are produced in facilities, in munitions or elsewhere.

(For the purpose of implementing this Convention, toxic chemicals which have been identified for the application of verification measures are listed in Schedules contained in the Annex on Chemicals.)

Now note the following: All the 3 schedules list one of the two the following guidelines:


It has little or no use for purposes not prohibited under this
Convention.

or


It is not produced in large commercial quantities for purposes not prohibited under this Convention.

In other words, the chemicals named specifically in the CWC lists are what may be called (for all practical purposes, as weapons) single-use. The CWC classification of dual-/multiple-use chemicals, such as WP, depends not only on their properties, but also on how they’re applied.

So to make my point even clearer:

The alleged illegal use of WP does not merely constitute illegal use of an incendiary weapon, it also constitutes use of a chemical weapon under the CWC, even though it is not named specifically, as it is a dual-/multiple-use chemical. (Cf. The General Purpose Criterion) It does not matter that it is separately listed as an incendiary and, for that reason (as it has “legitimate” applications as well),  is not named specifically on the CWC list. Illegal use, under the CWC, would seem to include also the use of WP in quantities that are inconsistent with the purpose of illuminating enemy troops or camouflaging movement. The images we have seen, as well as the testimonies of burned bodies and "shake and bake" missions, seem to make for powerful allegations of illegal use of WP, as a chemical weapon.

This was my assertion, now to the confirmation:

The argument is also explained by Peter Kaiser (Organization for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons, the organization that administers the CWC) on the RAI News24 web site (Thanks to Gabriele Zamparini for linking this on The Cat’s Blog). Click on the the play link in the right corner if this link does not work.

Essentially, Kaiser explains that the use of WP is prohibited by the CWC when it is used as a weapon that is not:


[…]used within the context of a military application which does not […] intend to use the toxic properties of white phosphorus. […] If [...] the caustic properties [are] intended to be used as a weapon, that of course is prohibited [under the CWC].[...] Any chemical that is used against humans or animals that causes harm or death through the toxic properties of the chemical are considered chemical weapons. So it does not matter which substance we’re talking about. As long as the purpose is to cause harm through toxic properties, that is prohibited behavior [under the CWC].

Please excuse the two negatives in that first sentence, but to me, it cannot get much clearer than that.

IMO, if the US is guilty – under international law – of using chemical weapons, this must be addressed! The political and moral implications are important in and of themselves, but primarily separate matters from this specific issue of legality. The images of melting children should cause outrage among all sane people, but in order to refute any argument that this is regrettable but legally acceptable collateral damage, it is important to look at all the ways in which the US may be in violation of international law, and this includes applying the CWC.

*Update*

It seems that I may not have made the best job at expressing myself clearly enough. (Mea culpa, this is not my first language.) So let me try and be more precise. These are the claims that I'm making:

1) The general statement "WP is a chemical weapon" is in itself neither true, nor false.

2) The general statement "WP is not a chemical weapon" is in itself neither true, nor false.

3) The possession of WP by a state is legal!

4) WP can be used in a legal, legitimate fashion, i.e. as defined by international law, including the CWC.

5) WP can be used in an illegal fashion -- as defined by international law, including the CWC -- namely by using it to cause harm through the toxic properties of the chemical.

6) A caustic property is a toxic property (though a toxic property is not necessarily a caustic property).

7) The illegal use of WP [as described in 5)]renders WP a chemical weapon in that context and its illegal use as a chemical weapon (i.e. in that context) is banned by the CWC.

Peter Kaiser of the OPCW is essentially making the same points. I encourage everyone to listen to the audio clip.

By the same token: If I purchase a hammer and say it's a tool, no one can object, as long as I use it merely as a tool. However, if I use it to hit someone on the head, the police will take my hammer away and claim that, under the law, it is a weapon, because of the way it was used. The application defines the object in any context.

Tags: white phosphorus, Willie Pete, chemical weapons, Iraq, Fallujah (all tags) :: Previous Tag Versions

Permalink | 260 comments

  •  If you agree (3.93 / 60)

    that this is an important issue, please recommend. Thanks!

    The yellow ribbon has been overtaken as the company's best-selling product by a wristband promoting chastity before marriage with the slogan "True Love Waits".

    by LodinLepp on Thu Nov 10, 2005 at 05:48:10 AM PDT

    •  Done (none / 0)

      Thanks for the effort.

      "I just had the basic view of the American public -- it can't be that bad out there." Marine Travis Williams after 11 members of his squad were killed.

      by Steven D on Thu Nov 10, 2005 at 05:58:13 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  I like your diary, but (none / 1)

      I really wish people would stop using Wikipedia as an authoritative source.  It's not, it doesn't claim to be, and, to the contrary, it will often lead you astray.  Reading the comments to this diary reveals, I think, that your Wikipedia quote is not an accurate representation of the treaty.
      •  I do not (none / 0)

         contest that Wikipedia need not be an authorotative source, but the quote in question was IMO representative of my argument and precise. But I could have left it out, and perhaps I should have; the quote might as well have been just my own assertion. The claim is confirmed by the other sources, IMO. If you like, leave everything but the last paragraphs out. The Organization for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons should know, as they administer the treaty. Peter Kaiser is their spokesman.

        The yellow ribbon has been overtaken as the company's best-selling product by a wristband promoting chastity before marriage with the slogan "True Love Waits".

        by LodinLepp on Thu Nov 10, 2005 at 09:53:28 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  I agree (none / 1)

        It basically is a refined form of gossip.  Anyone can add anything to Wikipedia without having any factual basis whatsoever.  Someone else may prune out the incorrect information later.  Or they may not.  Wikipedia is convenient, kind of fun to see what people write, but it shouldn't be viewed as authoritative.
    •  Toxicity of White Phosphorus (none / 0)

      According to the CDC, these are the health effects due to the toxicity of WP:

      http://www.atsdr.cdc.gov/...

      WARNING: LARGE FILE

      I think you will all find this enlightening.

  •  Yup, it's important (none / 0)

    I've recommended. Thanks for the post.

    Listen to The Wilflipson Show at http://wilflipson.com

    by wilflipson on Thu Nov 10, 2005 at 05:53:15 AM PDT

  •  I recommended (none / 0)

    and I would love to see a counter-argument, if one exists.
    •  This is not a counter argument but consider this.. (4.00 / 4)

      If we had found White Phosphorus Rounds In Iraq...

      Do you think Bush would have proclaimed...

      WE FOUND SADDAM'S WMD!!!

      You bet your sweet ass he would have.

      "You Have The Power!" - Howard Dean

      by talex on Thu Nov 10, 2005 at 08:52:58 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  No way (none / 1)

        I respectfully disagree -- I would be shocked if we didn't find WP in Iraqi weapons caches.  It's the most effective smoke-screen producer, and can also be used in illumination rounds.  I know the Repugs were eager to find the WMDs, but claiming that WP is a WMD would open them up to universal ridicule.  (Er, beyond the usual...)

        For the same reason, I think posts labeling WP as a chemical weapon are specious.  If any army wanted to use a chemical weapon, WP would be a stupid choice.  Sure it's toxic, but so are most high explosives.  You're not going to drop tons of nitroglycerine on a target in the hope that it will cause arrhythmias and heart attacks... you'd want to use some of the really toxic crap like nerve agents or incapacitants.

        IMO, depleted uranium rounds or Agent Orange are close to being "gray areas".  WP -- incendiary yes, chemical weapon, no.  

        If you don't know where you are going, you will wind up somewhere else. Yogi Berra

        by Twin Planets on Thu Nov 10, 2005 at 11:33:10 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  Counter argument (3.81 / 16)

    I understand your point, but you're wrong.

    To make this short and sweet, here's the two main flaws in your argument. First, when the Senate ratified this international treaty, they added a section to the treaty that specifically listed flame weapons and obscurants (smoke), herbicides, and riot control agents as exempt from treaty considerations. There is a great deal of dispute about this among the state parties because of the language you've indicated, but point one is, WP is exempt and is not considered a chemical weapon from the US govt point of view (also it is NOT an incendiary device but a smoke munition). But you've already seen the official line, you're talking about the letter of the law.

    Point two, the CWC language says: ""Chemical Weapons" means the following, together or separately: (a) Toxic chemicals and their precursors, except where intended for purposes not prohibited under this Convention, as long as the types and quantities are consistent with such purposes;"

    First of all, the active component of WP is not toxic in and of itself. The physical property of its reaction to oxygen, resulting in WP burning, is the issue. If a chunk of WP is floating in oil, it's not burning. Quick, is it still a toxic chemical? Same issue with napalm - it's the action of napalm BURNING that makes it a dangerous substance to people, not the compound itself. And the intent and purpose of the WP munition, as I've stated, is for smoke generation and is not designed as a chemical munition.

    I understand the confusion, but this issue has been gone over for decades by arms control specialists. It's pretty clear in the legal courts - you're not going to get anywhere by saying that the toxic fumes from buring WP makes use of the WP munition an act of chemical warfare. Also see my dkos diary here.

    Timendi causa est nescire (Ignorance is the cause of fear)

    by Animal13 on Thu Nov 10, 2005 at 06:25:12 AM PDT

    •  You're answering hot outrage (4.00 / 4)

      with cold logic, and that's never a winning proposition.

      From what I've read, I think you're correct on the facts--there is a legal distinction here that most of us aren't addressing. (Partly, perhaps, because the treaty we signed and our own laws don't appear to be entirely convergent.)

      I also think we're almost certainly researching chemical weapons which are clearly prohibited ... and that, more to the point, the use of WP as a direct-fire munition is a convincing cautionary tale for those who believe we can control the weapons we develop. That's the real story here. Even in the hands of, as you said--and as I believe--the 'good guys,' we will exploit every capacity of the weapons we create.

      •  It's not a legal distinction (4.00 / 10)

        It is a scientific one.

        White phosphorus, despite any incidental toxicity its combustion byproducts may have, is not used as a weapon because of its toxic effects.  It is used as a weapon because it burns vigorously and emits a considerable quantity of light while doing so.  

        The harm it causes people is physical harm -- thermal damage -- much as any other explosive or incediary.  Practically any explosive has toxic effects in addition to its physical harm.  

        RDX (Royal Demolition Explosive), is one of the main explosives in torpedoes, rockets, and bomb warheads. It is used to make composition C (i.e, C4) demolition explosive.  It also has toxic effects.  It has been used as a rat poison.  It can cause seizures after ingestion or inhalation, and is a suspected human carcinogen.

        Just because an explosive or incendiary device is made of chemicals, or has toxic side effects, does not make it a chemical weapon.

        LodinLepp's thesis is wrong.  It is not for the toxic properties of white phosphorus that it is used - it is for the physical chemical properties - its tendency to burn.  Fast.

        I'm no apologist for this crime.  I hate it.  And I'm angry that this administration is dragging our collective name through the mud by using cruel weapons against civilians.

        But, from the evidence on white phosphorus I've seen, it's not a chemical weapon.  

        •  Couldn't agree more.... (4.00 / 4)

          I wish people would stop trying to somehow make the matter worse by twisting reality to turn WP into a chemical weapon.

          Was the way it was used possibly wrong? Yes.
          Was it illegal? Possibly.
          Was it a chemical weapon? No.

          McCain '08: Like Hope, But Different.

          by Siberian on Thu Nov 10, 2005 at 07:18:54 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Exactly! Armchair chemists... (4.00 / 6)

            ... armchair weapons experts, armchair international treaty experts, armchair [fill in the blank]... it's a dailyKos parlor game, and it isn't helpful.  At all.
            •  Then what exactly IS helpful?? (4.00 / 7)

              You've got the mojo and cred to do something, stir up concrete plan that will move Kossacks out of semantic inter-family warfare and into action.

              Well??

            •  aoeu (none / 0)

              I've been waiting to hear your take on the CW status of WP since you are after all a chemist.

              turtles consider
              every single vote deeply
              yet always vote dem

              by TealVeal on Thu Nov 10, 2005 at 08:09:24 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  Is this helpful? (none / 0)

              I too, wish our outrage could be directed into productive actions.

              • Start with the premise that an optional war is a war crime, perhaps the grandaddy of all crimes, destined to beget many smaller ones. This means starting to demand a reckoning from the small handful of humans (to stretch the term) who started it. We know who they are. This doesn't mean automatically giving anyone in the field a pass. But it does mean first things first.

              • Resolve that it's way past time to be more in-your-face about it. This is most true with the MSM, and least true with your next door neighbor, who is possibly a neighbot. But it is true all around.

              • Let's quit drawing distinctions without a difference, and stop hopping on little semantical twists of connotation. Yes, we're all sick about this, or we've got some dead sensory mechanism inside of us. You probably know what I mean by this, but if you don't, I don't really care to discuss it with you.

              • Let's come up with some good old fashioned protest ideas. Anybody got a PDF file from the Hague of a fill-in-the blank war crime indictment? Let's see if we can make it into a giant tent someone better than me can wear, to wave Hi to our Members of Congress? Maybe another person, also better than me, could wear a tent made out of pictures of the burnt children? Maybe this is a stupid idea or not, but as their side has shown us, a bad direction beats no direction at all.

              • Ask yourself and everybody else, how do you want to remember yourself and what you did or not during this time? Did you bloggedly squabble your day away, or did you make a move on meatspace? Remember Lee Atwater, who, after getting papa Bush elected, found out that he had terminal cancer. That meant to him that he would soon be going to hell if he didn't seek some form of earthly redemption. I don't know if it worked for him or not.

              Let them know the tide has already turned against them.

              Ooops! Where's my earthly redemption? Gotta be mute here, now. Bye folks. CYA L8R

              •  Naw, not really . . . . (none / 0)

                What would really be helpful is we'd all just shut up for the good of the country, ala Mr. Boies' example:

                " . . . top Democrat lawyer David Boies told CNN's Lou Dobbs that he'd like to see a deal worked out because, if the Libby case goes to trial, "a lot comes out" and "it damages America."

                Responded Dobbs: "I'm like you. I would like to see this resolved so that it is less injurious to the nation."

                I'm sure Mr. Kerry, Hillary, and the rest of our brave leaders feel likewise . . .

                •  Yes... (none / 0)

                  that was an intriguing thing he said. Made me wonder what the folks in Washington know that we don't. I think he's a good man(Boies not Dobbs) but I think it's misguided to think that we don't need to get to the bottom of all that led us into this war and the terrible consequences that it has had on our world stature, our own psyche, and our economy. I think we must, and I think this trial is a great opportunity. If it further lowers our stature in the world when we find out just what sort of monsters are leading this country, then so be it. It's time for a reckoning. Democrats, Republicans, everyone responsible must be held to account.
                  •  I lost all respect for Boies when he fucked up (none / 0)

                    Gore's recount efforts in Florida.

                    I wish I had saved it, but the New Yorker had an excellent analysis how a couple of obscure - but dead on - academics who had studied every recount ever do over the past 30 years devised what would have been a winning strategy (in retrospect) and they were brushed aside/ignored by Boies in favor of a few grandstanding efforts that were doomed from the get go.

                    Even back then he was on the darkside (once again, in retrospect it's clear - him, and Karl Rove's goof friend Ms. Bazille (sp?) running Gore's campaign - and let's throw in Kerry's partying with Dennis Miller and Arnie at Sun Valley while people on the ground were still valiantly trying to prove the Ohio fraud last December)).  Was that all for the good of the country -  of was just another manifestation that the same group of people run both parties - and they reflect what would be bad for them to be bad for america (mostly to protect  their own asses).

                    It's time for a major housecleaing in the Democratic Party . . . (the Repubs are beyond hope of saving, hopefully they soon end up on the proverbial trashheap of history, or whatever the saying is)  

                •  Hmm, better if Libby didn't go to trial (none / 0)

                  because of all that would "come out" and harm America?

                  all just shut up for the good of the country

                  Good how? Where? For who?

                  I'm sorry. Ya lost me.

            •  could not disagree more (none / 0)

              Oh yes it is helpful.  It's a chemical, it was used as a weapon, it's a chemical weapon.

              I merely express the viewpoint of a layperson.

              In God we trust. All others must pay cash.

              by yet another liberal on Thu Nov 10, 2005 at 09:24:50 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Water is a chemical (none / 0)

                if I drown you, is that a chemical weapons attack? You see everything is a chemical and everything that burns is what lay people call a chemical and they virtually all have toxic effects of some sort. RBC people, let's get with it, when we use mindless rhetoric to attack, we become the enemy.
            •  PP, a question. (none / 0)

              I respect your comments here, so please forgive if I'm being an armchair whatever...

              The following question occurred to me.  

              If at any time over the last few years, an "unfriendly" round of WP exploded near or on the position of US troops, would they have
              a) Suited up in NBC suits and/or
              b) Issued a chemical weapons warning

              How does the army treat these weapons when used this way?

              IOKIYAR! They believe markets and competition solve everything AND that the universe is centrally planned.

              by No One No Where on Thu Nov 10, 2005 at 11:25:49 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

        •  Well, (none / 0)

          I agree the legal definition is based on a scientific distinction, but I think the law is more relevant to this discussion than the chemistry.

          If WP was 'scientifically' a chemical weapon but 'legally' permitted by the CWC, its use was arguably immoral but not illegal; if it was not 'scientifically' a chemical weapons, but prohibited, then its use was inarguably illegal.

          And we all agree this is horrible.

        •  Maybe our definition is fucked... (4.00 / 2)

          just like our definition of torture. We ARE torturing, whether we define it as such or not.

          This weapon SHOULD be defined as a chemical weapon by it's use. As we debate "legalities and definitions" innocent people burn, by our hands.

          Will the elite be happy living behind gated communities in the potential meltdown? Peace now. -7.00, -2.92

          by mattes on Thu Nov 10, 2005 at 08:24:23 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  It all depends... (none / 0)

            ...on what the meaning of "is" is.  "Is" it a chemical weapon?

            Gee, innocent little me thought that these kinds of semantic distinctions weren't going to be drawn by our new, honest, forthright, compassionate conservative government after we got rid of those nasty, dictionary-loving, language-parsing Clintons.

            "There is nothing false about hope." -- Barack Obama

            by DC Pol Sci on Thu Nov 10, 2005 at 09:26:02 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Here we go....TRUST US (none / 0)


              Torture is a crime, not a policy

              ADVERTISEMENT
              Click to learn more...

              President Bush insists the United States does not torture prisoners, even as his aides draft memos on what kinds of torture are acceptable, and even as he exempts the United States from international conventions against torture and even as he opposes attempts by Congress to bar him from approving the use of torture.

              And now it turns out that the CIA has been operating, apparently immune from any oversight, a network of secret prisons overseas, including with dreadful symbolism one in a former Soviet prison camp.

              Bush's national security adviser, Stephen Hadley, said this week that if such prisons existed they were being run "in a way that is consistent with our principles and values." It is the all-purpose Bush administration response: Trust us.

              link

              Will the elite be happy living behind gated communities in the potential meltdown? Peace now. -7.00, -2.92

              by mattes on Thu Nov 10, 2005 at 10:12:23 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

        •  In general, (none / 0)

          I agree with your point, however, in support of the diarist, I would argue that the "use" provision would allow RDX to stray into that grey area of CW classification if large amounts of it where dumped into a civilian water supply, with an expressed nod toward its toxicity.

          However, you point is still salient.  Strict legal interpretation may separate the WP compound itself from its incendiary properties.

      •  When You're Arguing That We Use Chemical Weapons (4.00 / 11)

        Hot outrage is fine as a motivator, but  you better have cold logic on your side if you want to win that argument.

        "Sometimes I wonder whether the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it." -- Mark Twain

        by JDRhoades on Thu Nov 10, 2005 at 07:12:53 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Often a problem (4.00 / 2)

          When progressives try to overturn a law or argue against a government or corporate activity, they tend to believe that moral outrage based on assumptions is all you need.  This is good for raising money, but not much else happens in the way of a substantive change.

          This is one reason why progressives wind up losing suits against chemical factories, govt. facilities they suspect pose a risk, etc.  They hire a consultant with some letters after his name who shares their ideology and tells them what they want to hear.  

          But such a consultant, who usually collects big bucks from donations given by people who want to correct, say, an environmental ill, often does not have the science or the research or the understanding of the law to back up the case.

          The other side does. The judge, ruling fairly according to what the law says, decides in favor of the chemical company, etc.  The progressives then assume a conspiracy has occurred.

          Happens all the time.

          Solution:  we progressives need to learn the science and get the facts from reliable sources.

          The IPCC predicts average global temperatures to rise enough by 2050 to put 20-30% of all species at risk for extinction.

          by Plan9 on Thu Nov 10, 2005 at 07:42:47 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  science and emotion can coexist (none / 1)

            Yes, we need to differentiate ourselves from the repugs who twist science and words to their own ends.  Even when science doesn't support what we say, or the words of a treaty don't support our stand, we need to acknowledge them.  But then we need to also continue to argue from our hearts as well as our heads.  In this case, I cannot tell where legality lies from the arguments I have read.  We can acknowledge that there is disagreement about the legality of WP and cite the pros and cons.  Then we can continue to cry out about the immorality of these actions.  Head and heart - that is what the Democratic Party is at its best.

            Maybe if mothers (and men with a mother's heart) ran the world, we would stop killing so many people.

            by chichagof on Thu Nov 10, 2005 at 08:45:43 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

      •  No he's not. (4.00 / 3)

        You're answering hot outrage with cold logic

        No he's not.  The author of the diary was quite explicitly arguing from a strictly legalistic point of view, and putting aside questions of morality and emotion.  As he says, with respect to the latter, we're all on the same page.

        When someone then responds with a strictly legalistic counterpoint, if you claim that they're "answering hot outrage with cold logic", then you're trying to have your cake and eat it too.

        -- E pur si muove.

        by asdfasdf on Thu Nov 10, 2005 at 07:39:56 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Why is Peter Kaiser wrong? (none / 0)

          I haven't seen anyone attempt to explain that one.
          •  I don't know (none / 0)

            I'm sorry, but I have no idea who Peter Kaiser is, or what he has said on this subject, and therefore I have no idea why, or even whether, he is wrong.

            -- E pur si muove.

            by asdfasdf on Thu Nov 10, 2005 at 09:37:39 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  Okay, (none / 0)

            this looks like as good a place as any to jump in.
            Mr Peter Kaiser is a talking head, not a Chemist. From the OPCW,
            Mr Peter Kaiser, Head, Media and Public Affairs Branch, External Relations

            His statement,
            If [...] the caustic properties [are] intended to be used as a weapon, that of course is prohibited [under the CWC].[...] Any chemical that is used against humans or animals that causes harm or death through the toxic properties of the chemical are considered chemical weapons.

            is true as far as it goes, and is a blanket statement. It does not say that these properties exist with WP. If there are not toxic or caustic properties to exploit as weaponry, a substance cannot be used as a "Chemical Weapon". The guy on the Italian video who was saying that WP smoke will melt the skin off of anybody who touches it either was flat out lying, or had his head so far up his ass he was re-chewing his bubblegum.

            From a response I got from somebody experienced in the field.

             It'll irritate your throat for a while (none / 1)

            but you're quite correct; when it's laid down as a screen, your own troops advance through it... without the need for respirators and with no ill effect. Prolonged exposure to the smoke will make you physically ill in a contained environment, but it is less irritating and less persistent than CS gas (tear gas).

            The intitial burst is nasty and it wouldn't do to be hit by any part of the bloom. It will burn your skin, but the descriptions provided in the Italian vid smack of pure bullshit.

            Your own troops move through it. Please, people.

            Here's a little article about Phosphorus and you.

            Phosphorus the second most abundant element (after calcium) present in our bodies, makes up about 1 percent of our total body weight. It is present in every cell, but 85 percent of the phosphorus is found in the bones and teeth.

            Deficiency and toxicity:There is no known toxicity specific to phosphorus; however, high dietary phosphorus, as is found in a diet with meats, soft drinks, and other convenience foods, can readily affect calcium metabolism. Potential calcium deficiency symptoms may be more likely when the phosphorus intake is very high. A low calcium-to-phosphorus ratio in the diet increases the incidence of hypertension and the risk of colon-rectal cancer.

            Phosphorus in small amounts like 100-200 mg. is often contained in multimineral or multivitamin formulas. It is unlikely that anyone takes phosphorus as a separate supplement.

            Okay, I think that we can put down the spray can of "Aaaaaah, WP is poisoning everybody" already. While pure P4 is a poison, frankly, you've got bigger problems if you're encountering it. Pure P4, if it's loose and anywhere near you, will be desperately trying to become P4O10, releasing quite a bit of energy in the process. That's the burning part.

            There is a report, Toxicity of Military Smokes and Obscurants, Volume 2 (1999) which would give more concrete data, but the NAP site seems to be down. Wayback machine has some of it, but not enough.

            An aside, not to the commentor I'm replying to, but to the community in general, please tone it down if you don't know what you're talking about. Take the time to find out the reality of something before screaming your head off. This is the reality based community, isn't it?

            Now, back to our regularly scheduled programming.

            As to the "caustic" possibilities,

            Ordinary phosphorus is a waxy white solid. When pure, it is colourless and transparent. It is insoluble in water, but soluble in carbon disulphide. It catches fire spontaneously in air, burning to P4O10, often misnamed as phosphorus pentoxide.

            P4O10 is apparently deliquescent, meaning it reaaaaally likes water. I'm sure somebody will give me shit for that definition, but hey. So, P4O10 is not stable, but reacts with water to form a fairly dilute phosphoric acid.

            From Wikipedia

            Given time, the droplets will continue to absorb more water, growing larger and more dilute, until they reach equilibrium with the local water vapour pressure. In practice the droplets quickly reach a range of sizes very suitable for scattering visible light, and then start to dissipate due to wind or convection. The dilute phosphoric acid in the cloud may be mildly irritating to the eyes but with normal field concentrations and exposure it is not harmful; extended exposure can lead to damage of lungs and throat.

            Speaking of Wikipedia, which I almost abbreviated WP, ironically enough, its article on WP is now being polluted with this chemical weapon BS.

            I'm not an expert, but from what I can see, there is no reason to call WP a chemical weapon. This does not detract from the fact that its use was wretched and probably illegal. It does no good to harp on an aspect of an act that is demonstrably false. This is especially true if there are other aspects, easily confirmable, that are equally as deplorable. I think Hunter has it right. The real problem is that we're burning the skin off of children. Burning, blasting, flaying, or boiling, I'm pretty well opposed to that.
            After looking into it, I'm starting to think the Italian video is an overly pumped tabloid piece. That they present WP smoke as searing the flesh off of anything it touches is reason enough to seriously question or disregard the rest of it. The PDF acknowledging the use of WP is a much more potent indictment. Some of the footage in the RIA video is helpful as backup, but to use a source with such obvious failings as primary doesn't cut it. Should I diary a hysterical "Batboy is coming to get us" citing the Weekly World News?
            Let's stick to what is absolutely unshakable rather than trying to put round pegs in square holes. Fallujah was collective punishment, and that alone makes it a war crime. Using WP against civilians doubles that. There is no need to exaggerate it into CW territory. Think Fitz, think right. Get them for what is provable without a shadow of a doubt.

            The lone and level sands stretch far away. -Shelley

            by justme on Thu Nov 10, 2005 at 12:27:03 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Kaiser is talking about WP (none / 0)

              Listen to the audio.

              The yellow ribbon has been overtaken as the company's best-selling product by a wristband promoting chastity before marriage with the slogan "True Love Waits".

              by LodinLepp on Thu Nov 10, 2005 at 12:44:30 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  I listened to it. (none / 0)

                He is saying that any chemical used in a way where the toxic properties are the vector of harm is a chemical weapon. Mixing up a bunch of bleach and ammonia would be a chemical weapon. I agree entirely. WPs damage is caused by heat. Burning. Not chemical toxicity. Ergo WP≠CW.
                The first interviewee in the RAI video seriously misrepresents the effects of WP, and they use it. This fact, to me, puts everything else said into heavy doubt.
                I apreciate your passion for the issue, but you're wrong. I'd love to see you put the energy into the issues that are undeniable iron clad disasters that are brought out by all this.

                The lone and level sands stretch far away. -Shelley

                by justme on Thu Nov 10, 2005 at 02:05:38 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Irrespective of my passions, (none / 0)

                  it is very clear that Kaiser is talking specifically of WP. At the same time, the fact remains that the CWC applies to all chemicals used to inflict injury through toxic properties.

                  Kaiser on WP and the CWC: "If, on the other hand, the toxic properties of WHITE PHOSPHORUS, in other words the caustic properties of WHITE PHOSPHORUS, are specifically intended to be used as a weapon, that of course is prohibited, because the way the convention is structured, or the way it is infact applied, any chemical that is used against humans or animals, that causes harm or death through the toxic properties of the chemical, are considered chemical weapons."

                  Do you agree that this is what he says? He is talking about WP. The point extends to any chemical used in an illegal fashion.

                  The yellow ribbon has been overtaken as the company's best-selling product by a wristband promoting chastity before marriage with the slogan "True Love Waits".

                  by LodinLepp on Thu Nov 10, 2005 at 02:30:34 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  That seems (none / 0)

                    to be what he said. It is, however, not in full context. I'd love to hear the whole thing. You could just as easily say

                    "If, on the other hand, the toxic properties of COCA COLA, in other words the caustic properties of COCA COLA, are specifically intended to be used as a weapon, that of course is prohibited,"

                    and say the same thing. Nowhere does he state plainly that these properties exist in a strength capable of being used as a weapon, only that were there capability, it would be illegal to use it. So that "If" is a mighty big one. The fact is, the harm and death caused by WP is not caused by toxicity or caustic action. It is caused by BURNING. It's not a CW, and it's not productive to call it one.

                    Also, as I said, that RAI video lacks credibility. I don't know how they've edited that audio, either.

                    The lone and level sands stretch far away. -Shelley

                    by justme on Thu Nov 10, 2005 at 02:59:03 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Well, (none / 0)

                      at least we can agree to disagree, but I appreciate that you did address the point I was trying to get accross in the diary. I still maintain that if you take the entire sound clip into consideration it is pretty clear that he's talking about chemicals with far greater capacity to do damage through use of toxic properties than coca cola. But I respect your view. And I think we agree that even with a legal question in mind, energy should be put into putting the morality issue on the agenda.

                      The yellow ribbon has been overtaken as the company's best-selling product by a wristband promoting chastity before marriage with the slogan "True Love Waits".

                      by LodinLepp on Thu Nov 10, 2005 at 03:09:29 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                    •  One more thing, though (none / 0)

                      How would you explain the presence of large numbers of dead bodies with burnt/melted skin and flesh, but with clothes that are more or less intact?

                      The yellow ribbon has been overtaken as the company's best-selling product by a wristband promoting chastity before marriage with the slogan "True Love Waits".

                      by LodinLepp on Thu Nov 10, 2005 at 03:34:53 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  For one, (none / 0)

                        I'm not a pathologist, but to my eye, I haven't seen such a thing demonstrated for certain. I've seen some photos, on my computer screen, that might, maybe, be that. Bodies left out for long periods get mightily gruesome. Some of the natural processes can be mistaken for "melting".
                        Second, there is no effect of WP documented that will do that. If there are indeed large numbers of bodies like that, then something much worse than WP has been used. Again, WP kills by combustion, not some magic eat-your-flesh-away reaction. It will burn straight down to the bone, but it will torch anything in its way.
                        None of what I'm saying makes what happened at Fallujah any less of a war crime, I'm just saying WP is not a CW. If the level of proof offered won't even convince me, somebody who, were the government to be using CW, would want to know, and want something done about it, it's going to go nowhere with the lobotobots on the other side. So far, the explainations and the evidence don't add up to me.
                        And Jeez, isn't there reason enough for outrage, ala Hunter's diary?  

                        The lone and level sands stretch far away. -Shelley

                        by justme on Thu Nov 10, 2005 at 04:00:41 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  What "level of proof?" (none / 0)

                          The military has already admitted to using WP as an anti-personnel weapon in indiscriminate targeting. What's to prove?
                          •  I know that. (none / 0)

                            And I am well and thoroughly outraged by it. I was ready to Nuremburg the bastards in charge for going in like they did in the first place. Demolishing a city of, what, 300k people, is collective punishment, plain and simple.
                            Using WP in that manner is wrong, you'll get no argument from me on that. My only point on this is one of classification. It's a geek thing. WP, like napalm, which we also seem to have dusted off and brought down from the shelf to make crispy deep fried kiddies on the run with, is an incendiary, rather than a chemical weapon, which truly are different things. WP has a few uses. If it's used as smoke, it's not so much an offensive weapon. If used as illumination, again, not so much weapon. If used as a direct fire weapon, it is classified as an incendiary, not a chemical, by people more familiar with the distinction than you or I. Even in the illegal usage on civilians, the damage vector remains the same. I only worry that miscategorization would enable some to ignore the whole thing. That's all. And this should be shouted from the rooftops. I think we are finally finding the tipping point of the center. This was hugely ignored when it happened. It may just be the right time to drag it out. Maybe the media will pick up on it. I, for one, hope they do. And I hope they focus on the crimes that cannot be denied, rather than have a piefight about mechanism.

                            The lone and level sands stretch far away. -Shelley

                            by justme on Thu Nov 10, 2005 at 06:30:30 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

      •  Exactly wrong (none / 0)

        That's exactly how you answer "hot outrage".

        Today's Special: Chickenhawk, slow-baked in its mother's basement.

        by Earl on Thu Nov 10, 2005 at 08:52:44 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  I bet you could also wax eloquently (2.50 / 4)

      about what the meaning of is is . . . .
      •  If the person's wrong (4.00 / 3)

        contend with the substance - don't take cheap shots.  I thought it was a very good and through analysis.

        "The state has no place in the bedrooms of the nation." - Pierre Trudeau

        by fishhead on Thu Nov 10, 2005 at 07:28:33 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Why should I dignify complete nonsense (none / 0)

          With an actual argument?

          For example, the poster's statement:

          "First of all, the active component of WP is not toxic in and of itself."

          is a lie -  do your own search and you'll find that WP is quite toxic indeed:

          Burns to persons struck by particles of burning WP are usually much less extensive than napalm or metal incendiary burns, but are complicated by the toxicity of phosphorus (50 mg being the average lethal dose, LD50),   (from wikipedia).

          Perhaps a helpful comparison is the old stand-by toxin cyanide , where the LD50 is ~ 200 mg - therefore WP is four times more toxic than cyanide ..

          Seriously, does "a very good and through analyis" of this type really deserve a dignified reply?

          •  On second reading of your post . . . . (none / 0)

            I assume you must be of British (albeit by way of Canada) heritage - and like the British say, Americans can't recognize irony  - so I apologize for becoming a bit snippy upon reading your clearly facetious response.

            Yup, that "very good and through" joke really had me going there for a second . . .

          •  Toxicity (none / 0)

            My understaanding is that the toxicity results from oxidation.  Correct me if I'm wrong (I'm just heading out and don't have time to do more research).  But to me the key point he raised was the exemption of WP from the weapons treaty when used for its proper purposes, as it was ratified by the US.  I took your very brief comment in response as referring to the validity of this legal argument.  

            "The state has no place in the bedrooms of the nation." - Pierre Trudeau

            by fishhead on Thu Nov 10, 2005 at 08:05:37 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Hopefully somebody will correct Wikipedia (none / 1)

              Promptly (maybe you?) so that no one else falls for this bullshit  statement:

              Detonating a WP shell will cause an effect comparable to the use of lung agent poison gases for those exposed to the gas.

              But now I see the game you're playing - which is remarkabl;y similar to the 'definition of is is' parsing btw  - where the actual chemical in question does not act directly as a toxin but need to be modified in some way before it achieves full activity.  

              Once you get this confusion cleared up, I'm sure you'll want to take on "Big Pharma" who classifies many of their products as 'drugs' in common everyday usage when in reality - horror of horrors - they are really just  PRO-DRUGS

              •  A question (none / 0)

                If you light a pile of wood and throw someone on it does that mean that wood is a chemical weapon?  The illegality is in burning people alive, not burning wood.  You can burn wood for all sorts of legitimate purposes.  All the author is trying to do, IMO, is suggest the proper grounds for opposing this - I still don't understand why you object to that.

                "The state has no place in the bedrooms of the nation." - Pierre Trudeau

                by fishhead on Thu Nov 10, 2005 at 04:05:33 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Spontaneous human combustion? (none / 0)

                  Maybe it's not a myth - I don't really know.

                  Otherwise, your scenario of burning people basically requires a chemical accelerant - whether it be gasoline, wood, napalm, WP, or whatever.

                  My point is that common sense allows the combination of the "chemical" (whatever was used to burn the people) and "weapon" (the fact that people were violently harmed) into an idea that can connect - and hopefully shock and horrify the average person out of their complacency.

                  Instead, this site is full of WP apologists who nitpick the legalities to death about whether some obscure international treaties (that are in effect so 20th century as there's not a chance in hell they'll be enforced against the US military - it's like, well duh, not 'illegal' - nothing King George does is illegal in the sense that whether or not laws exist, they will never be enforced).  So, quite frankly, I am completely baffled over the obsession with proper legal grounds, carefully parsed legalities, etc etc.  

                  By the time the 1783th iteration of making sure the terminology exactly fits the legalities, the average person's mind will be firmly glazed over and nothing will have been accomplished, except to make them even more insulated from reality.  The reality is that horrifying things are being done, and however they can be described in down to earth, common-sense, everyday terms that can get through to people should be used.

                •  If you die from the (none / 0)

                  heat of an atome bomb, does that mean it's an incendiary device rather than a nuke?

                  Kind of doesn't matter one whit, does it?

                  All behold the tamed Maverick, at his master's feet.

                  by coigue on Thu Nov 10, 2005 at 10:23:23 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

            •  Garbage pseudo-chemistry all around (none / 1)

              I don't have enough knowledge one way or another on the larger question of legality, but this argument ("it's not toxic by itself, it's only toxic when it combines with oxygen in the air") made by you and also by the parent in the thread is inane on its face.

              By the same argument, phosgene (COCl2) isn't toxic because the phosgene itself doesn't burn your lungs and cause you to drown to death -- it's just that the phosgene combines with water in your lungs to form carbon dioxide and hydrochloric acid!  So I guess it's fair to say, applying the same logic, that phosgene isn't a chemical weapon either.

              So I suppose we should tell the 100,000 soldiers gassed to death by phosgene in WWI that they really have nothing to complain about because just because it's a chemical doesn't make it's a chemical weapon.

              •  Phosgene has no phosphorous (none / 0)

                it is COCL2 (can't subscript here, sorry)

                "Many people did not care for Pat Buchanan's speech; it probably sounded better in the original German," Molly Ivins, 1992

                by jeffinalabama on Thu Nov 10, 2005 at 08:51:25 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Well, no, like PP said its actually COCl2 (none / 0)

                  In any event - so what if phosgene has no phosphorous?

                  It's not raining outside either right now - while that's an absolutely true statement the relevance to this discussion is a tad murky.

                  •  before I saw your comment (none / 0)

                    I was going to say, "dope slap for me for my reply." After reading your comment, I'll stick by what I said about the dope slap, but add "bite me," also :-P. Please troll rate it out of existence.

                    "Many people did not care for Pat Buchanan's speech; it probably sounded better in the original German," Molly Ivins, 1992

                    by jeffinalabama on Thu Nov 10, 2005 at 09:13:29 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  No that's OK (none / 0)

                      It  gave me a nice softball to extent this morning's string of obnoxious posts (guess I'm just a bit over-wrought over those  -  not you personally - who seem much more concerned over obscure legalities than the 800 pound (or is 900 pound) gorilla  in the room).
                      •  Semantics are important (none / 0)

                        Once this thing hits talk shows, analysis, interviews, etc. it will bog down in semantic arguments if the semantics are contestable.  It's a great diverter of attention from the real issues, so  precision is important to cut off objections before they arise.

                        For God's sake, we can all agree that using this practice is abominable and there have been threads aplenty to allow venting and provide tools for pressuring politicians.  This thread is about legality and semantics - that is to say meaning - and no one can seriously claim that this is unimportant.

                        "The state has no place in the bedrooms of the nation." - Pierre Trudeau

                        by fishhead on Thu Nov 10, 2005 at 04:20:27 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

          •  Read the post you replied to (none / 0)

            the COMPONENTS are not in and of themselves...

            Today's Special: Chickenhawk, slow-baked in its mother's basement.

            by Earl on Thu Nov 10, 2005 at 08:54:25 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  So what is the toxicity of P2O5 (none / 0)

            Fine, so white phosphorus is toxic.  It is well known by now that it burns.  So it is no longer white phosporus, but mixed phosphorus oxides once it is used as a weapon.  Guess what they turn into when you add water?  Phosphoric acid.  Guess where you find phosophoric acid?  Coca-cola among other places.
            •  P2O5 is not phosphoric acid (H3PO4 is) (none / 1)

              But I'm sure you already knew that and were just being intentially obtuse?

              Anyway, I'll play along and tell you about its Toxicology

              . . .  may be fatal if inhaled, swallowed or absorbed through the skin. Very destructive of mucous membranes. Eye contact may lead to serious permanent eye damage. Corrosive - causes burns. (see LD50 values at the link).

              Moreover, P2O5 reacts violently with water, alcohols, metals, sodium, potassium, ammonia, oxidizing agents, HF, peroxides, magnesium, strong bases.

              Then, after these violent reactions you have phosphoric acid as found in your Coca-cola. (in the Fajullans, these violent reactions did not occur in a chemical plant prior to addition of H3PO4 to beverages, they occurred inside the people  ).  That's what some of non-WP apologists are a tad upset about.

              •  So here is where your data gets you (none / 0)

                I took the liberty of doing a few conversions for you.  The LC50 for P2O5 for rats is 1217 mg/m^3.  The LC50 for phosgene (known chemical weapon) for rats is 20 mg/m^3.  Notice a difference?  

                Ever wonder why they make WP grenades but not phosgene or nerve gas grenades.

                •  Since you did the conversions . . . (none / 0)

                  Are going to be so kind as to post them?

                  (or does the listing of two LC50 values rise to the standards of 'doing a few conversions'  in your world?).

                  In any event, you might have listed the LD50 values for mice, which are closer to 200 mg/m3.  Don't know if people are more like rats or mice, but giving you the benefit of the doubt - a 50 kg  person (occupying approximately a volume of 0.05 m3) would need about 60 mg to be killed (50% of the time, although there's only a 10% chance of that).  

                  So basically, the 200 mg advil I just took for the headache I got from dealing with all this shit would have the ability to kill three people if they were like rates (or 18 if they were more like mice) if it had been made of P2O5.   Wonder how many advils could be stuffed in a 50 mm artillery shell?  And how many people that could be killed due to their chemical toxicity (if they were P2O5)? Care to do the conversions?   (if not, I'll get around to it presently)

                  •  Check your units (none / 0)

                    I do this for a living.  You listed a vapor or fume concentration which requires a time attached to it and then used it to calculate a dose.  That doesn't work.  You need to use an LD number to calculate a lethal dose.  

                    BTW you get more phosphoric acid from a can of coca-cola than what you are talking about.

                    •  Check my units? (none / 0)

                      You're the one posted data with the units incorrectly specified (see above, 1217 mg/m^3 when it's really 1217 mg/m^3/1 h).

                      Strange.

                      Also, if you still haven't grasped the difference between P2O5 and H3PO4   - I gotta say it's a tad stranger that somebody would actually give you a job in this line of work.

                      •  Heh (none / 0)

                        Busting me for leaving off the time?  That's funny.  Okay, they were both 1-hour.  You got me.  At least I didn't try to do something like use an LC number to calculate a oral toxic dose, but whatever.  

                        Phosporus pentoxide is the anhydride form of phophoric acid.  When it contacts water (like in your mucus membranes) it immediately becomes phosphoric acid.  Thus when you talk about phosphorus pentoxide toxicity, you are essentially talking about phosphoric acid plus the dehydrating action of the anhydride.  So which one are you talking about, and where?  It is WP in the weapon, phosphorus pentoxide as soon as it hits the air, and a mixture of phosphorus pentoxide and phosphoric acid as it combines with atmospheric moisture.  If there is some part of this that I am missing, please enlighten me.

                        •  Huh? (none / 0)

                          First, in posts above, you claim that there is P2O5 in Coca-Cola.

                          Now, you claim that immediately upon contact with water, P2O5 becomes phosphoric acid.  

                          OK, I realize this might be a stretch for you, but I'll type slowly so you can ponder the ramifications and repercussion of the fairly widely-accepted fact that  a can of Coke contains water (hint: both of your contentions (listed above) cannot be true).

                          Upon reflection, I suspect that even you will go with the second one, namely that immediately upon contact with water, P2O5 becomes phosphoric acid.  One might even be able to write a chemical equilibrium equation:

                          P2O5 + 3 H2O  <------>  2 H3PO4

                          OK, what you seem to be missing is the impact of this conversion on - let's say - mucous membranes:   Without looking it up or calculating the thermodynamics of the conversion, I think it's safe to say the "violent reaction" characterization of this conversion means that it's a highly exothermic reaction.    I will leave it to the reader's imagination what the "immediate" release of a lot of heat is apt to do to those mucous membranes you refer to . . .

                          •  Sigh (none / 0)

                            Wow. I am so impressed.  There is no real equilibrium between P205 and phosphoric acid because all of it will react to form phosphoric acid, ergo no equilibrium.  But again, whatever.

                            You must be quite the chemist because this material is SO far beyond my 4 years of chemistry.    

                            The reason I talked about P2O5 in coke is that everyone kept listing acidic and corrosive properties for WP and its products, well the only acid is phosphoric so I jumped ahead.  Sorry if I lost you.

                            Again, WP is used as an incendiary and not as a toxic agent.  You want to throw out exothermic reactions.  Fine.  Quick class.

                            Heat of oxidation of phosporus - 24 kilojoules per gram.

                            Heat of hydration for phosphorus pentoxide - 0.46 kilojoules per gram.

                            Guess which property got WP selected as an anti-personnel agent?

                            •  So, you finally acknowledge (none / 0)

                              That there is no P2O5 in Coca-cola .

                              See, that wasn't so difficult, was it?

                              Now, I'm off to pour a few liters of sulfuric acid all over myself - I don't think that should be dangerous at  all considering that hydrofluoric acid is considerably more lethal .

                              I'll probably also deliberately expose myself to the new strains of avian influenza, too - no danger there because, from all acounts, ebola virus is more menacing.

                              (etc).

                              •  Reread my original post (none / 0)

                                It is back there a ways.  I never said that there was P2O5 in coke, I said that there was phosphoric acid.  I said later that P2O5 is hazardous in similar manner to phosphoric acid with an added dehydrating action.  Note that thermal effects from P2O5 hydration will be unnoticeable when you contact it as a vapor (especially when it is hydrating due to moisture in the atmosphere as soon as it is formed).

                                I thought I was really clear all the way through.

                                Your humor does not sell your argument.  I have no real desire to get crushed by a supersonic shockwave from HE, ballistically tattooed with supersonic dirt and debris, have my guts ripped out with shrapnel, etc.  All of those things really suck and none are illegal.

                                •  Finally, some damn useful information from you (none / 0)

                                  Quote "I have no real desire to get crushed by a supersonic shockwave from HE, ballistically tattooed with supersonic dirt and debris, have my guts ripped out with shrapnel, etc.  All of those things really suck and none are illegal."

                                  Geez, now I finally know how to deal with my really, really annoying next door neighbor . . . . and do it legally!!  I'm going to start with the supersonic shockwave 'cuz that sounds really cool, but in the end might resort to some good old-fashioned supersonic dirt (that'd probably be cheaper than the schrapnel option).

                          •  If the WP smoke (none / 0)

                            to phosphoric acid was violent, the whole damn cloud would be on fire. The reaction is taking place with the water vapor present. The phosphoric acid continues to suck water until equal with vapor pressure. I'm under the impression this happens fairly quickly.

                            The lone and level sands stretch far away. -Shelley

                            by justme on Thu Nov 10, 2005 at 12:48:29 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                    •  Why bring up the coke (none / 0)

                      example?

                      It muddies the waters. Kind of like minimizing the OK City bombings by talking about how we all eat nitrogen in our meat every day. See how irrelevant and confusing that might be?  All sorts of things we use and eat daily have small quantities of things that are corrosive at high molarities. You must know that it is fairly irrelevant to the fact that the forms used in the military have little to do with the fact that there is phosphoric acid in coca-cola (which is corrosive, as you would know if you've ever judged a middle school science fair).

                      All behold the tamed Maverick, at his master's feet.

                      by coigue on Thu Nov 10, 2005 at 10:33:56 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

    •  Intent (none / 0)

      This all goes to intent.  You may quibble about the semantics and parse the law, but it comes down to intent.

      Read:

      The Alleged Use of White Phosphorus in Falluja by spoon or no spoon (a former US defense advisor)

      [I'd refer to the one by a liberal Marine posted last night, too, but it has been deleted -- very, very worrisome.]

      Then ask yourself about intent.  Were deployments of  WP in An Nasiryah and Fallujah intended ONLY as illumination?  Were they ONLY deployed as traditional incendiary ordinants?

      The very use of the phrase, "shake and bake" in regards to the use of WP suggests the intent to use WP illegally, to my mind.

      •  Sanitized (none / 0)

        Good God.  Now the diary entry at the link I provided above has been deleted, too.

        Who is sanitizing this stuff and why?  Is this literally too hot for people in positions to know to discuss in public forums?

      •  Object of Intent (none / 0)

        It is NOT illegal, for US troops, to use WP munitions.  See my post below for more details.  

        It IS illegal to intentionally use WP, or ANY other offensive device, against a non-combatant.

        "If everyone is thinking alike, someone isn't thinking." -George S. Patton

        by vmibran on Thu Nov 10, 2005 at 07:28:26 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  I read it (none / 1)

          And I've read and re-read every DKos diary entry on this topic, along with external material, read the 1980 Convention on CCW.

          Using WP as an areal ordinant to "shake and bake" in an urban setting containing civilians is illegal.  

          The targets weren't tightly focused and couldn't be, in that environ.

          WP was NOT applied for illumination, if anecdotal evidence by US troops is to be believed.

          And then the issue of intent...

          I'm sick and tired of the desultory back-and-forth, with no plan to take action.  What are those of you who believe WP has been used illegally going to do about this?  Sit by and continue to quibble over semantics while our troops in our name prepare to use WP again in a Iraqi-Syria border town ??

          •  Specifics and Generalities (none / 0)

            I'm SAYING it IS illegal to use WP, or any weapon, against non-combatants.  Chill out.

            The diarist, however, wants to claim that using WP is illegal.  It's not.  He also wants to claim that it's a chemical weapon.  It's not.

            "If everyone is thinking alike, someone isn't thinking." -George S. Patton

            by vmibran on Thu Nov 10, 2005 at 07:47:36 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Common ground (4.00 / 3)

              Most of us Kossacks agree that the use of WP as evidenced by RAI and anecdotes IS ILLEGAL.

              And I'm not going to chill out until there's less hammering and yammering about freaking semantics and more action.

              I've already sent a letter to the Senate Armed Forces Committee demanding an investigation into the  use of and production audits of WP.  I've already contacted my Senator.  I've already posted bills asking for action, already blogged about WP's misuse, will be working on media contacts next.

              And all I'm seeing in the Kossack community is more inter-community bashing because this or that Kossack is using the so-called wrong terminology.  Gah.  No wonder we've lost the White House...

              •  Thank you!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! n/t (none / 0)

              •  Misguided Passion (none / 0)

                I ALSO "agree that the use of WP as evidenced by RAI and anecdotes IS ILLEGAL."

                So why are you bashing me?

                I applaud your efforts to counter and draw attention to the MISUSE of WP munitions.

                My only intention, and my continued (albeit failing) attempts at clarification, are that WP munitions are not illegal in and of themselves.  And they are not chemical weapons in accordance with ANY national or international standard.

                Ill-informed passion serves little purpose.  Action utilizing improper terminology is counter-productive.

                "If everyone is thinking alike, someone isn't thinking." -George S. Patton

                by vmibran on Thu Nov 10, 2005 at 10:15:30 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Fine. Now get your tail in gear (none / 0)

                  If you know all the right terminology, use it in your letters to the members of the Senate Armed Forces Committee.

                  Use it in your letters to your own Senators.

                  Use it in a diary with an example letter to these Senators for other Kossacks to use as a template for their own letters.

                  Without action it's just semantically correct and empty words.

            •  Read it again. (none / 0)

              You are wrong.

              The yellow ribbon has been overtaken as the company's best-selling product by a wristband promoting chastity before marriage with the slogan "True Love Waits".

              by LodinLepp on Thu Nov 10, 2005 at 10:12:10 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  No, I'm Not (none / 0)

                Are YOU an expert on chemical weapons and their employment in military environs?  Because I was.

                Under your definition, fucking WATER is a chemical weapon if I drown someone in it.

                And you seem to be neglecting the little portion of your diary that says "(For the purpose of implementing this Convention, toxic chemicals which have been identified for the application of verification measures are listed in Schedules contained in the Annex on Chemicals.)"

                So go to the Annex on Chemicals that YOU LINKED.  Do you see white phosphorus anywhere on that list?  

                No.

                It doesn't change the fact that the use of WP AS EMPLOYED IN THIS INSTANCE, was illegal and horrific.

                But you, and others, continued insistence that

                1. WP use in general is illegal; and
                2. WP is a chemical weapon
                is just flat out WRONG, not supported by your own justifications, and fundamentally damaging to your stated cause.

                I'm trying to help you, whether you can see it or not.

                "If everyone is thinking alike, someone isn't thinking." -George S. Patton

                by vmibran on Thu Nov 10, 2005 at 10:26:19 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  I do not (none / 0)

                  claim anything of the kind. That's where you're wrong. Read the diary again. I'm claiming the complete opposite of what you're saying.

                  I claim that:

                  1. The general statement "WP is a chemical weapon" is in itself neither true nor false.

                  2. The general statement "WP is not a chemical weapon" is in iteslf neither true, nor false.

                  3. The possession of WP by a state is legal!

                  4. WP can be used in a legal, legitimate fashion, * i.e. as defined by international law, including the CWC.

                  5. WP can be used in an *illegal fashion -- as defined by international law, including the CWC -- namely by using it to cause harm through the toxic properties of the chemical.

                  6. A caustic property is a toxic property (though a toxic property is not necessarily a caustic property).

                  7. The illegal use of WP [as described in 5)]renders WP a chemical weapon in that context and its illegal use as a chemical weapon (i.e. in that context) is banned by the CWC.

                  By the same token:
                  If I purchase a hammer and say it's a tool, no one can object, as long as I use it merely as a tool. However, if I use it to hit someone on the head, the police will take away my hammer and claim that, under the law, it is a weapon, because of the way it was used. The application defines the object in any context.

                  Please listen to the audio again.
                  Peter Kaiser of the OPCW is making the same points.

                  The yellow ribbon has been overtaken as the company's best-selling product by a wristband promoting chastity before marriage with the slogan "True Love Waits".

                  by LodinLepp on Thu Nov 10, 2005 at 12:13:58 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Oy. (4.00 / 2)

                    Yes, melting the skin off babies is horrible.  Yes, I, like you, am outraged by this fucking mess these pigs in Washington gotten this nation into, through their lies and hubris.

                    But.

                    Insisting that the use of this particular weapon can be construed as the use of a chemical weapon, in contravention to years of arms control conventions and treaties, is just not going to work, and it's a waste of moral outrage that should be focused on the war itself.  Here's what happens if we bring this up in the MSM as a "forbidden use of chemical weapons" issue (assuming it would be reported that way):  first, you'd get a parade of talking heads saying that WP is not a chemical weapon.  They would point to language that specifically includes WP in Protocol III of the CWCC instead of Protocol II.  You might even have some Dem talking heads mixed in with the bunch, since Protocol III (and our refusal to sign it) goes back to around 1980 and spans both Rethug and Dem administrations.  Then they would point out that the US has refused to sign Protocol III, for all kinds of "good" reasons.  They would then say that becuase WP is listed specifically as an incendiary-type device, it doesn't belong in Protocol II because it's primary purpose, as an incendiary, is covered in III, and any toxic effects are purely collateral and are "unintended consequences."  By the time this was over, if the media was still covering the story, you'd be fighting an uphill battle to talk about melting skin from babies, because at that point, you'd've lost credibility on the chemical weapon issue.  

                    The point, as Hunter stated, is that we're melting the skin off of babies, for Christ's sake. The focus should be that we are killing civilians directly-not only with WP, but also with bullets, shrapnel, and bombs, to name a few additionsl "legal" weapons.  Not only that, but we have turned Iraq into a charnel house, where it isn't safe for the average person to walk or drive down the street, without risk of being caught in a crossfire, shot by a nervous patrol, or blown up by a suicide bomber.  Whatever the fuck this is, it ain't "spreading democracy".

                    Repeating that message puts the pigs on the defensive.  The "chemical weapons" screed just won't fly:  WP isn't, and trying to make it that way by bending it into a different category out of  a justified sense of moral outrage is counterproductive.  

                    Think if it this way: what's more effective, saying "We're using chemical weapons because the incendiary that we legally use has a side effect that is toxic, so it must really be a chemical weapon even though years of convention says it not, so we're just a bad as Saddam", or saying "We need to stop melting the skin off babies"?  

                    •  You're not addressing my points. (none / 0)

                      And it doesn't even seem like were talking about the same Convention. I'm talking about the Chemical Weapons Convention. That's what the issue is here. I'm not talking about conventions on conventional weapons.

                      I'm sure most politically conscious Americans are able to have two thoughts in their head at the same time. It must be able to argue both the legal and the moral aspects of an issue. If not, what the heck was Fitzmas all about?

                      The yellow ribbon has been overtaken as the company's best-selling product by a wristband promoting chastity before marriage with the slogan "True Love Waits".

                      by LodinLepp on Thu Nov 10, 2005 at 01:19:56 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                •  As explained, (none / 0)

                  the chemicals listed in the Annex on Chemicals are listed because they are considered single-use. The CWC is not exclusive. The General Purpose Criterion states that all other (dual-use) chemicals that are, in a certain context, used to cause harm through toxic properties, are concidered chemical weapons in that context.

                  Read it, its plainly stated.

                  <