Daily Kos

Katrina, Politics and Iraq

Wed Aug 31, 2005 at 08:28:30 PM PDT

All our prayers and thoughts are with the folks in the Gulf Coast region of our country. This is unquestionable of all Americans - Democrats, Republicans and Independents. And indeed, this is not a time for politics -- not only for moral and ethical reasons, but for political ones as well. That is, politics itself mandates that these days not be political. Hunter below, and Josh Marshall speak a frustration and anger many of us share:

I'm sorry. I know we're supposed to be observing an accountability free moment for the president. But there are just too many examples out there of the ways in which his policies have contributed to and accentuated this crisis: systematic cuts in levee and pump construction around New Orleans (second article here), phasing out FEMA and the apparently the whole concept of national coordination of the response to natural disasters. That's a great idea, isn't it? Similar failings are discussed by Bruce W. Jentleson and Juliette Kayyem at TPMCafe. And, of course, example after example of cronies running critical agencies. Anyone want to give a buzz to Joe Allbaugh over at New Bridge Strategies?

The scene of any natural disaster, especially one of such grave magnitude, will invariably be chaotic. Much won't go according to plan. But a lot of people seem to have been caught unprepared in this mess, a lot of preparedness agencies appear to have missed a few beats in getting on top of it.

Josh is right I believe. More importantly, Josh's critique cuts across partisan lines in my opinion. Yes Bush and his administration have much to answer for. But what of the government of the State of Louisiana? The government of the City of New Orleans? I for one believe all have to answer for this. But not now. Maybe next week. But not today. For the reasons described above.

Interestingly, Matt Yglesias wrote a rather strange post that, I think unintentionally, illustrates a related point about Iraq. I'll discuss it on the flip.

  • ::
The good news for Democrats is that by 57-42 people disapprove of Bush's handling of the war, and by 53-46 people say the war wasn't worth it. The bad news, however, is this:

By a 51 percent to 38 percent ratio, the public said the United States is winning the war, despite mounting casualties and insurgent attacks. A majority (54 percent) continued to say the United States should keep military forces in Iraq until civil order is restored there; 44 percent said U.S. forces should be withdrawn. Six in 10 opposed announcing a timetable for withdrawal.

. . . [C]ontrary to some loose talk I've heard from fellow anti-war liberals, the evidence seems to suggest that the anti-war view remains a minority one on forward-looking issues. The challenge for Pottery Barn Democrats, meanwhile, is not only the mismatch between their views and those of most Democrats, but the need to offer an alternative vision for "handling" the war that's actually credible and compelling. For what it's worth, I'd very much like to support that position, but the ideas I've seen on the table -- with all due respect to our current Table for One guest and others -- don't seem very credible to me. It's natural that the population would like to choose hope over despair, notwithstanding concerns about the current situation, but even as a political stance "do the war but do it better" doesn't work very well in the absence of a sound policy vision.

I think Yglesias completely misunderstands the political ramifications of the poll results. Of course Americans want to believe they are winning. Of course they want the U.S. to "win the war." But in the face of this obvious strong pull, 44% TODAY want withdrawal! That is amazing. In the face of NO opposition by the Democrats, a pliant Media, and the strong "rally round the flag" urge of the American People during any war time, the number who support withdrawal is already nearly half of the population. Where will that number be next July? What Matt misses in this part of his analysis seems simple to me - the election is NEXT year. Not this year. Next year. A little forward looking political thinking is in order.

In a certain sense, the process by which advocating withdrawal becomes the clear majority opinion, one politicians will be able to express without fear of political blowback, is accelerating rapidly. To me that is the noteworthy political news from the WaPo poll cited by Yglesias, not the lesson he takes. Remember, the election is next year.

The other mistake Yglesias makes is his critique of Democratic strategy alternatives for Iraq. He says he doesn't find them compelling. Well guess what? No sane person would. But it doesn't matter - Democrats have no say over Iraq policy. Democratic alternatives for Iraq are simply political statements, they can be nothing else until 2007. Now, the strategies that might be worth discussing in a serious way are related to what we do in the Middle East AFTER the U.S. leaves Iraq. How do we manage the Debacle and ITS Aftermath? This exercise, however, CAN be dangerous politically right now. But my hope is that some smart Democrats are considering that. Because that will be the REAL question for next year and beyond. How can we manage the incalculable damage done by Bush and his Iraq Debacle if and when Democrats DO get power. On policy, that is the only pertinent question now. The rest is politics.

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Permalink | 173 comments

  •  The tragedy spike (4.00 / 2)

    I don't see him getting better poll numbers over this one, this time.

    Creationists make it sound as though a 'theory' is something you dreamt up after being drunk all night - Carl Sagan (1934 - 1996)

    by mdhatter on Wed Aug 31, 2005 at 08:27:55 PM PDT

    •  Bush is Getting Slammed... (none / 1)

      In editorial after editorial from the ultra right-wing Manchester Union to the Ny Times.  Man, if he's lost the Union he is burnt toast.

      "We're all working for the Pharaoh" - Richard Thompson

      by mayan on Wed Aug 31, 2005 at 08:49:02 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Golly, I hope you're right ... (4.00 / 3)

      ...but I've been led to believe that he couldn't possibly gain from situations in the past and was proved wrong. So, I'm not yet persuaded that he and his handlers won't find some way to make him seem ... presidential in this catastrophe and ratchet himself up a few points. At least temporarily.

      I am an anti-imperialist. I am opposed to having the eagle put its talons on any other land. -- Mark Twain

      by Meteor Blades on Wed Aug 31, 2005 at 08:49:54 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Remember... (none / 0)

        ...what masters these thugs are at manipulating public opinion.  

        I won't be AT ALL surprised if the Rethugs gain seats in both the House and Senate in 2006.

        JUST SAY NO TO HILLIEBERMAN!!! "The truth is there is something terribly wrong with this country, isn't there?" ---"V"---

        by asskicking annie on Wed Aug 31, 2005 at 08:58:51 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  I'm with you. (4.00 / 5)

        I think the theme has to be Greed and Incompetence.

        Bush is on vacation.  Pound him on it.  Connect it to "My Pet Goat."

        The situation in New Orleans is just unbelieveable.  What the hell have the FEMA folks been doing for three days?

        I've been watching the WWL-TV live feed off and on today and the fact that there are still thousands of folks stranded on roofs, second floors, in attics three days-post hurricane is mond-boggling.

        We're like a goddamned third world country.  And there has been a clear, underlying tension over the lack of National Guard availability.

        This disaster ties up all the loose ends of this administration's many inane, insane efforts and policies... needed state forces tied up in a needless war; a slow and seemingly unconcerned response dur to the Bush/Cheney lack of empathy for anyone unlike themselves -- rich and white; proce gouging and more political favors for the oil industry, Halliburton, Bechtel, etc.; environmentally destructive policies such as favoring development over wetlands and ignoring/denying global warming... The list goes on and on.

        Greed and Incompetence.  A deadly combination.

        •  Don't forget to add "arrogance." n/t (none / 0)

          I am an anti-imperialist. I am opposed to having the eagle put its talons on any other land. -- Mark Twain

          by Meteor Blades on Wed Aug 31, 2005 at 09:13:13 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  No shit.... (4.00 / 2)

          These guys couldn't get back to DC fast enough when Terri Schiavo was the "theme du jour"....

          And all for political points!!!

          So this "... let's not get into politics - the nation needs us together" is crass bullshit.  You know the republicans are spinning this as fast as they can, and all they care about is politics, ahem, I mean MONEY and POWER.

          So, yes, let's roll over and show our bellies in a spirit of coming together... just don't twitch when they plunge the knife in... and please don't squeal either - it detracts from the purity of the scene.

          Where's the "Culture of LIfe" NOW, HUH!?!

          "Kiss my shiny metal ass. And FTFY" - Bender

          by seronimous on Wed Aug 31, 2005 at 09:52:35 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  Haley Barbour gets his comeuppance (none / 0)

          According to RFKJr., Barbour was instrumental in getting W to renege on his campaign promise to regulate CO2. Looks like Mother Nature decided to smack him down.

          What is valued is practiced. What is not valued is not practiced. -- Plato

          by RobLewis on Thu Sep 01, 2005 at 12:35:36 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  Let's not forget Classist and Racist (none / 0)

          If those were blonde, white women down there, the response almost certainly would be much greater.  If they were wealthy, even more so.  The "Lawlessness and Looting" you're seeing is a direct result of the failed response, and it's going to get worse.  I think this might have ramifications in more than just the Southern cities hit by the hurricane, I think we have a Rodney King situation here again.  I hope those people get help and fast, and I also am noticing a serious racist response to this catastrophe.

          The MSM is propaganda.

          by mmuskratt on Thu Sep 01, 2005 at 09:01:20 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  Check out the main NYT editorial today... (none / 0)

        They say the idiot gave the worst speech of his presidency yesterday:  

        "And nothing about the president's demeanor yesterday - which seemed casual to the point of carelessness - suggested that he understood the depth of the current crisis."

        His pathetic, late response to the crisis along the Gulf Coast, along with the resulting rising gas prices, will not help endear him to the masses. In light of this, I don't see how his pol numbers will improve.

        It's just another example how detatched Dear Leader is from reality. I can imagine that as he safely looked down upon the devastation yesterday from 2000 feet, all he could think of were Tonka toys and train sets.

      •  to get the benefit (none / 0)

        there has to be doubt

        there isn't ANY.

        they failed.

        Direct line, money trail, dead people.

        To quote our president.

        "Fool me twice..... i won't be fooled again"

        Creationists make it sound as though a 'theory' is something you dreamt up after being drunk all night - Carl Sagan (1934 - 1996)

        by mdhatter on Thu Sep 01, 2005 at 10:46:18 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  WHO GIVES A FUCK (none / 1)

      about bush's poll numbers!

      The only thing people care about now is trying to help.  In any way they can.

      Ever been through a hurricane? I worried about 4 last year (so much so that I evacuated twice) and lost power for a total of 9 days from the other TWO.

      No one effected gives a damn about which politician was to blame.  

      And I have to say this to this community:  most effected have NOTHING BUT CONTEMPT FOR PEOPLE OF ANY POLITICAL IDEOLOGY WHO TRY TO TAKE ADVANTAGE.
      Having been personally involved in efforts to help people from Charlie last year - I have nothing but contempt for someone wondering about Bush's poll numbers, or what the impact is on 2006.

       The last thing you care about in the aftermath is assigning blame.

      I am profoundly disappointed in this board in the aftermath of the tragedy.

      If you give a damn, get out your checkbook.  Offer to house some homeless.  Rent a U-Haul and stock full of groceries and get on the road.

      Of shit the fuck up - because you aren't doing anything but blowing hot air.

      With this post I write my last comment on this board, almost 3 years after I posted my first comment here.

      •  I (4.00 / 4)

        I was in three hurricanes last year and I can raise you a week and half without power. And speaking for myself, I'm intensely interested in Bush's poll numbers at all times and particuloarly right now. Because the more they go down the more we can help people out of this mess and avoid the next one down the road. Whereas the more they stay steady or spike the greater damage he can do to the next state or town or family he gambles into the sewer or Iraq and stuffs into his buddies pockets.

        Read UTI, your free thought forum

        by DarkSyde on Wed Aug 31, 2005 at 11:38:58 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Try to Remember Where You Are (none / 0)

        dKos is not a general purpose on-line community. It is a political one, and one that is primarily concerned with getting Democrats elected.

        We can care about, post about, and contribute to helping, the people who have suffered from this disaster, and still consider the political angle.

        Regarding "No one effected gives a damn about which politician was to blame", I am 100% sure that you are wrong about that. A lot of people affected want to know how the government could be so unprepared for an event that was known to be a potential disaster.

        This is CLASS WAR, and the other side is winning.

        by Mr X on Thu Sep 01, 2005 at 05:24:15 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  $$$ For Levees (none / 0)

        All Politics is local, and arBusto raped FEMA, for a morph into HS, and denied funding to Army Corps of Engineers- http://tinyurl.com/bsttp

        I understand your disgust, but I think you have fear-laden tunnel vision.

        Expose the liars and the cheats, and you just might save future victims, that could include yourself.

        Leaving an open conversant community is not the answer.  

        Stand up, and fight, or tune into NPR and be pacified.

        Your choice; goodwill to you-

        Evidence that contradicts the ruling belief system is held to extraordinary standards, while evidence that entrenches it is uncritically accepted. -Carl Sagan

        by RF on Thu Sep 01, 2005 at 05:24:36 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  I give one. (none / 0)

        "Of shit the fuck up - because you aren't doing anything but blowing hot air."

        I really haven't been keeping track, is fladem for real or somebody's talking-point tool?

        OK, I looked up his most recent posts, May 5, December 4, Oct 24. Oct 14, and he writes like a democrat.

        So that implies this really is an emotional issue and not just a thug smokescreen.

        Myself, if I was delivering 1000 meals to a refugee camp that had 5000 people in it, I'd want to mention that we were doing the best we could but the funding got cut and the helicopters are in iraq. It would be worth mentioning, something people would be interested in.

        I can see people getting bothered that there could be a few democrat strategists as heartless as the average republican strategist, who think about how to limit the damage republicans can do to them when they could be spending 100% of their effort helping people. I'm not sure what to do about that.

        Like, we could start a campaign to donate all existing democratic campaign contributions and all paid democratic salaries to disaster relief. We could do our part to make up for the money the republicans cut from the budget. But....

        It looks like a real true issue that I have no idea what to do about. Things like this could turn into important republican talking points. And yet somehow Little Green Footballs doesn't seem to hurt the repubicans at all.

      •  NO! this is a FAILURE! (none / 0)

        This FAILURE is too enormous to strike when the iron has gone cold.

        Rove is already trying to tell the story

        why can't we?

        because YOU are pissed? redirect! not at me!

        For the record, I've given, and I did it BEFORE I opened by YAP.

        aside from that, i'm 2,400 miles from there.

        tell me how to be more useful, oh arbiter of truth.

        check your attitude!

        Creationists make it sound as though a 'theory' is something you dreamt up after being drunk all night - Carl Sagan (1934 - 1996)

        by mdhatter on Thu Sep 01, 2005 at 09:56:09 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  Only if..... (none / 0)

      I think his poll numbers may spike if he's allowed to play CiC and get away with it.  Democrats need to start getting on his ass...about a lack of national guard troops, about not putting price caps on gasoline right now, about cutting budgets for disaster relief and prevention...

      He will get away with this if Democrats allow him too.....and based on past experience they probably will.

  •  Thank you. (4.00 / 7)

    The Democrats must fight now. Nature acted, criminal negligence intervened, horror resulted.

    "Rupert Murdoch Loves Hillary Clinton"--CBS News headline.

    by Thistime on Wed Aug 31, 2005 at 08:29:04 PM PDT

  •  Re: Josh's post (4.00 / 5)

    This really is the debut moment of the post-9/11 National Response Plan....

    You're walking, and you don't always realize it, but you're always falling. --- Laurie Anderson

    by baggy on Wed Aug 31, 2005 at 08:32:57 PM PDT

    •  Will try to get hardcopy of this...n/t (none / 0)

      ...all words no action.

      Will the elite be happy living behind gated communities in the potential meltdown? Peace now. -7.00, -2.92

      by mattes on Wed Aug 31, 2005 at 08:54:32 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Accoutability-free Moment is Over (none / 1)

      CNN just reported (6:50 AM Thursday, Sept 1) the emergency aid bureaucracy is in gridlock.

      After 72 hours, the lack of planning and coordination is appalling.  It doesn't matter how much money is being raised if the people who need help NOW are being neglected.

      They need hundreds, if not thousands, of rescue helicopters and boats.  They need to get people out before they starve or drown.

      And they need to distinguish between "looting" and taking food that will spoil anyway to feed themselves and their families.

      BushCo's accountability-free moment is over.

      The rhetoric of the right wing is being fixed around the policy of disinformation.

      by MoronMike on Thu Sep 01, 2005 at 06:57:25 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  The issue for 2006 will not be Iraq (none / 0)

    It will be gasoline.  It will be interest rates.  It will not be Iraq.  Im sorry to say, but by next July people will be inured to 5 dead Marines a day.  Five dollar a gallon gas will turn heads though.

    Be careful around Bill O cuz he'll pop a loofah in yo ass.

    by calipygian on Wed Aug 31, 2005 at 08:33:37 PM PDT

    •  friend (4.00 / 5)

      Friend, by next July the US will have declared victory, and the troops will be coming home.  The only ones left in Iraq will be in heavil fortified embassies and military bases that are protected from all but the most deadly attacks.  That's what happens when you have billions to spend on fortfying a few square miles of land.  

      Iraq will be screwed and in a civil war, from which a likely strongman, or cabal, will emerge as a quasi-dictator.  The best we can hope for is a Pakistan like situation where the majority of the country hates America but the ruling elite is fearful of crossing us.

      •  Totally agree. (none / 0)

        n/t

        Be careful around Bill O cuz he'll pop a loofah in yo ass.

        by calipygian on Wed Aug 31, 2005 at 08:41:05 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Correct (none / 1)

        The sad thing is, this is exactly what we said would happen when these morons started his war. I think they knew it, too, but did the risk/reward and figured it was worth it. Assholes.

        Let's go back to E Pluribus Unum

        by hazzcon on Wed Aug 31, 2005 at 08:43:23 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  or maybe they're just fine with it that way. (none / 1)

          If we have our bases there, so the thinking may go, we can keep an eye on the oil and be able to launch special ops easily throughout the region.  

          It might even be, I hate to say it, that the Saudis and others would be quite happy to never see Iraq produce a lot of oil in the future, because they can make extra bank that way, and if Iraq's in a civil war then I suppose they won't be bothering their neighbors.  

          I hate to think like this, just trying to figure out what could possibly be going on.  It's hard to believe W and them could be as stupid as they seem to be on the surface.  And I'm not sure which is the right way to think of W.  Is he stupid, like I used to think, or nefarious, which is the way I'm leaning now?

          •  People smatrter than Bush though about it long (4.00 / 2)

            before he did.

            Zbigniew Brzezinski in "The Grand Chessboard: American Primacy and Its Geostrategic Imperatives" wrote:

            A power that dominates Eurasia would control two of the world's three most advanced and economically productive regions. A mere glance at the map also suggests that control over Eurasia would almost automatically entail Africa's subordination, rendering the Western Hemisphere and Oceania [Australia] geopolitically peripheral to the world's central continent. About 75 percent of the world's people live in Eurasia, and most of the world's physical wealth is there as well, both in its enterprises and underneath its soil. Eurasia accounts for 60 percent of the world's GNP and about three-fourths of the world's known energy resources.

            That power is us, of course. Dominating central Eurasia is key to dominating the world. These people don't think small.

            If honesty were suddenly introduced into American life, the whole system would collapse - George Carlin

            by brenda on Wed Aug 31, 2005 at 09:14:59 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

        •  everyone (4.00 / 2)

          Everyone assumes Bush is an idiot, and his guys didnt do any planning on Iraq.  They also tend to pin Bush as being an oil grabbing tryant.

          I see it like this.  Bush is simple and addled.  He has always thought that Hussein was a world class nemesis instead of a two-bit strongman.  When 9/11 took him by surprise - and I think it really did - he immediately believed Iraq involved because Hussein is a nemsis.  So his guys took all the evidence, and stripped out anything that was contradictory, and accentuated and puffed up everything that was complimentary, and presented it to him.  In his administration no one is ever frowned on for being a yes man, and no one is ever promoted for being a questioner.  He was convinced, and so, it was just a matter of convincing enough others to get onboard.

          As far as planning, the initial operation went according to plan, but then it went to shit.  His original plan was to hand over the reins to Chalibi, who his guys believed to a modern day George Washington in exile.  Turns out everyone knew him to be a fraud and a liar.  I figure Bush and his guys planned 6-weeks from the days the marines hit the proverbial beach.  After that Chalibi would swoop in and take over as President, and institute democracy on Washington's timetable.

          We all know how that turned out.

          Same thing goes with the hurricane.  Bush never figured for the leevee system going tits up.  He figured he'd sign a disaster decleration, do a few photo-ops, get a 5-pt bounce, and ride it a few months into Social Security reform and the Roberts confirmation.

        •  What do they care... (4.00 / 2)

          ...if Iraq is a catastrophe?  They've succeeded in dumping half the U.S. treasury into Halliburton's bank account.  Mission fucking accomplished.

          JUST SAY NO TO HILLIEBERMAN!!! "The truth is there is something terribly wrong with this country, isn't there?" ---"V"---

          by asskicking annie on Wed Aug 31, 2005 at 09:02:23 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  I don't agree with your assessment (4.00 / 3)

        There are those who argue the US intention on drafting an Iraqi Constitution in its own economic self-interest will backfire.

        There are coalitions being formed and ideas spreading which have nothing in common with our viewpoints or way of life.  Bush has given the word "democracy" a bad image.  

        Like shrub, many here are thinking through a vision of a few years, maybe even 10 or 12. They think that is a long term strategy. It will fail.

        ...the Iraqis wanted a country different from that for which the Americans had come to Iraq. They, or at least those who were involved in drafting the constitution, wanted nothing of the kind of economic and political system that Bremer and other US officials had been attempting to create in Iraq ever since the occupation began. What the occupation authorities wanted was to fulfill "the wish-list of international investors", as The Economist magazine described the economic policies they began imposing in the country in 2003.[2]

        As direct occupiers, the US enacted laws that give foreign investors equal rights with Iraqis in the domestic market; permit the full repatriation of profits; institute the flat tax system; abolish tariffs; enforce a strict intellectual property rights regime; sell off a whole-range of state-owned companies; reduce food and fuel subsidies; and privatize all kinds of social services such as health, education and water delivery.

        [snip]

        Writing Iraq's permanent constitution is the latest step in the political transition process agreed upon by the US administration and the Iraqi political parties that have chosen to cooperate with it since the beginning of the occupation. At every step of that process, the US has attempted to lock in policies that would advance and protect its fundamental interests in the country by championing and strengthening the hand of those Iraqis committed to defending them even after formal occupation ends.[3]

        Even before combat began, the US had assembled Iraqi exile groups who would not only support the invasion but would also defend free-market policies and tolerate the presence of coalition troops. In July 2003, the US handpicked the members of what would become Iraq 's first political entity during the transition, the Iraqi Governing Council (IGC). American lawyers then worked with the IGC members to draft Iraq 's transitional constitution, ensuring that all the laws enacted under occupation would be carried over by the incoming Iraqi interim government.[4] In June 2004, the US handed "sovereignty" to this interim government, its prime minister and other officials effectively chosen by the US.[5] In the elections for choosing Iraq's transitional parliament last January 2004, the US conducted both overt and covert operations to support former CIA agent Iyad Allawi's party and to reduce the margin of the winning coalition dominated by the Supreme Council for the Islamic Revolution in Iraq (SCIRI) and the Islamic Da'awa party.[6] While the US did not succeed in installing Allawi, SCIRI and Da'awa officials subsequently championed the US preferred agenda on oil, privatization, and the presence of coalition troops.

        As the Iraqis huddled to hammer out their permanent constitution, US officials were once again with them every step of the way. Outside the Green Zone, the negotiations were protected by 160,000 US and other coalition troops. Playing a central role inside was newly appointed US ambassador to Iraq Zalmay Khalilzad, a member of the Project for a New American Century who had called for invading Iraq since 1998. Having served as an intermediary for the US government with the Taliban regime, Khalilzad previously worked for Unocal in Afghanistan . After the invasion in 2001, he was subsequently appointed to be the US's first ambassador to Afghanistan . There, he was accused of serving as the "campaign manager" of pro-US candidate Hamid Karzai in that country's presidential elections.[7]

        Behind closed doors where real debates took place, according to the Washington Post, Khalizad was described by Reuters as being a "ubiquitous presence" and by the Financial Times as playing a "big role in the negotiations".[8] One State Department official called Khalilzad's actions "intensive diplomacy".[9] While media spin on the process portrayed US officials as reluctant, impatient intermediaries uninterested in the contents of the constitution ("just as long as it gets it done on time"), at one point, Khalilzad's team of American diplomats offered their own proposed text of the constitution to the Iraqis.[10] Shuttling back and forth from constant meetings with the Iraqi president, the speaker, and other high-ranking officials, Khalilzad was backed up by US embassy officials who, according to the Washington Post, were working from a Kurdish party headquarters to "to help type up the draft and translate changes from English to Arabic for Iraqi lawmakers".[11]


        Our... constitutional heritage rebels at the thought of giving government the power to control men's minds. Thurgood Marshall

        by bronte17 on Wed Aug 31, 2005 at 09:39:42 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  It will be the new poor (none / 1)

      who believed they were above it all and learned they are not so special after all.

      Will they understand the old poor?

      "Rupert Murdoch Loves Hillary Clinton"--CBS News headline.

      by Thistime on Wed Aug 31, 2005 at 08:37:57 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  The issues will be abortion, gay marriage and (none / 0)

      whatever else they throw out.  We always seem to fall for the right wing noise machine dictating the issues.

      How do we change that?  Throw down the gauntlet on real issues first.

      Everything is funny as long as it is happening to somebody else. --Will Rogers

      by groggy on Wed Aug 31, 2005 at 08:45:12 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  I do (3.66 / 3)

    He could come out and state the real reason we are in Iraq: oil is running out. That is a catastrophe far far greater then even Katrina. If Bush said: "We're in Iraq to secure our way of life and guarentee access to oil in a future of dwindling supplies." I think you'd see the public turn on a dime. Especially if he says this after rolling blackouts sweep the nation and crude hits $100 a barrel.

    If honesty were suddenly introduced into American life, the whole system would collapse - George Carlin

    by brenda on Wed Aug 31, 2005 at 08:35:02 PM PDT

  •  oops (none / 0)

    this was meant to be parented to madhatters post

    sorry

    If honesty were suddenly introduced into American life, the whole system would collapse - George Carlin

    by brenda on Wed Aug 31, 2005 at 08:36:00 PM PDT

  •  Opportunity for Bush (4.00 / 3)

    Use Katrina as an excuse for bailing on Iraq.
    Don't be surprised.
  •  Yes Armando (none / 0)

    you are (ouch, ouch, this hurts) right.

    Ultimately, Katrina will, I think, bring the Bush Administration to it's knees.  But we need to hold our fire to the appropriate moment.

    When is that?  I'm not sure I know.  Certainly, we need an accounting of the dead, injured, and displaced.  It may be days, it may be a week or two, but it's coming.

    Also, let's try to keep our attacks factual and supportable.  By going of the deep end with unprovable, or unprovable-sounding, theories we will weaken the tidal surge of facts that will, I hope, wash the stain of the Bush Administration from the body politic.

    John McCain, you are _not_ my friend.

    by LarryInNYC on Wed Aug 31, 2005 at 08:36:45 PM PDT

    •  your instinct is right (none / 0)

      Your instinct is right.

      Katrina is not going away.  Right now Bush can marshall some resources.  It's late, he should have already done it, he's a liar and a loser.  We all know that.

      But for now he is on top of a huge organization with tons of resources.  In that capacity we should root for him to pull off a turn around of organization and leadership.

      The coming weeks and months will highlight again and again his failures: of stragetgy, of funding, of priorities, of vision, of imagination, of character.

      There is literally nothing to be gained running around saying things that will be misinterruptered as "Bush caused Katrina" or "Bush killed my grandmother".

      A big issue that will emerge is the probable thousands who lost their lives because they improperly believed they could ride out the storm, light some candles, listen to some old records, and hang out for a few days.   Attempting to pin their deaths on Bush is arrogant and bound to be seen a macebre politics at its worse.  

      •  Katrina in Some Degree... (4.00 / 4)

        is the ultimate logical outcome of the modern GOP vision.  All those concepts that we've seen play out at large in the Bush regime:  "small government," "local resources," "money for military and homeland security - screw the infrastructure," "tax reductions" "political appointments based on nepotism rather than merit" - In an mind-numbingly tragic way, this is the perfect storm outcome.  No federal leadership, no resources, just a huge sucking vacuum...and we are like deer caught in the headlights.  

        "We're all working for the Pharaoh" - Richard Thompson

        by mayan on Wed Aug 31, 2005 at 08:56:01 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  And to not highlight (4.00 / 2)

          This major philosophical difference at a time where the nation must absolutely ante up to repair a city in a state that lacks the resources to do it alone would be political negligent to our cause and the effort of rebuilding New Orleans and Biloxi.

          -Hope never cost Corporate America a dime -Somebody blow Bush so we can impeach him already.

          by DWCG on Wed Aug 31, 2005 at 09:04:42 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  absolutely (none / 0)

            I am not saying don't do it.  Just that now when people are still trapped in houses and on rooftops is probably not a good idea.

            New Orleans is going to be screwed long after the water goes down.  There will be plenty, plenty, plenty of time to nail Bush for his failures.

        •  Nobody is this incompetent (none / 0)

          They completely flat-footed this disaster.  What were they waiting for?  A gov't of any size puts a contingency plan in place to sure up infrastructure and place resources for rescue and relief where it's needed the most.  Yes, NOLA is our Holland, but neglect and inaction will bear some potent fruit for this singularly inept administration.  Watch the GOP's handling of critics turn off a lot of people.  This was/is an epic error.

          Disclaimer: Any resemblance to actual robots would be really cool

          by Mike E on Thu Sep 01, 2005 at 06:39:08 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  We can take our cue from Mayor Nagin (4.00 / 12)

      who was reported today as saying that funds were diverted from levee reconstruction to Iraq. When he and Landrieu start vocalizing their criticisms we need to have their backs.
      •  Everyone's number one job-reverse global warming (none / 1)

        The effort to silence, to ruin science is not because of Darwin and evolution, it is because of global warming.  Everyone's number one job has to be to reverse global warming in order to stop the methane release in Alaska and Siberia or hurricanes specifically will get ever larger and more numerous. So to save ourselves, our loved ones and our planet, we should and must criticize strongly the lack of attention and problems solving needed to prevent our own extinction.

        Because they do not understand.

        Bush 1 was criticized for his bad job performance during a Florida hurricane (FEMA appointee was not a professional in emergency management which was critical).

        Jeb says no such thing as global warming after Florida got run over by 4 hurricanes last year.

        Below is Michael Moore's collection of Bush 2 blunders.

        from
        http://www.michaelmoore.com/mustread/
        Wednesday, August 31st, 2005

        When the Levee Breaks:

        "It appears that the money has been moved in the president's budget to handle homeland security and the war in Iraq, and I suppose that's the price we pay. Nobody locally is happy that the levees can't be finished, and we are doing everything we can to make the case that this is a security issue for us."
        -- Walter Maestri, emergency management chief for Jefferson Parish, Louisiana; New Orleans Times-Picayune, June 8, 2004.

        Here's the Story of a Hurricane:

        The Gulf Coast wetlands form a "natural buffer that helps protect New Orleans from storms," slowing hurricanes down as they approach from sea. When he came into office, President Bush pledged to uphold the "no net loss" wetland policy his father initiated. He didn't keep his word. Bush rolled back tough wetland policies set by the Clinton administration, ordering federal agencies "to stop protecting as many as 20 million acres of wetlands and an untold number of waterways nationwide." Last year, four environmental groups issued a joint report showing that administration policies had allowed "developers to drain thousands of acres of wetlands."

        Flood Control:

        Decades of flood-control efforts to protect New Orleans and other places, combined with the region's huge oil and gas investments, have contributed heavily to the destruction of coastal wetlands that can help tame the fury of storms like Hurricane Katrina, say scientists and government officials.

        Louisiana's governor says everyone must leave New Orleans as Day Two gets worse. The refugees currently in the Superdome will be sent temporarily to Houston's Astrodome.

        President Bush -- who is almost done with his vacation (he'll be back at the White House late this afternoon) -- will release oil from America's strategic reserves.

        The Mayor of New Orleans says there are too many people giving orders. The levee breach that allowed the lake to spill into the city's business district was supposed to be sandbagged yesterday but it never happened:

        According to the mayor, Black Hawk helicopters were scheduled to pick up and drop massive 3,000-pound sandbags in the 17th Street Canal breach, but were diverted on rescue missions. Nagin said neglecting to fix the problem has set the city behind by at least a month.

        many green, yellow, blue and now purple dogs are a majority.

        by Prove Our Democracy with Paper Ballots on Wed Aug 31, 2005 at 09:38:47 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  With all the corporateering (none / 0)

      and War reconstruction corruption going on in the Oval Office since 2001, it wouldn't be a surprise if this "woman" brought the Bush Administration to its knees.

      Dems will not hold impeachment hearings while Bill is campaigning with Hillary.

      by annefrank on Wed Aug 31, 2005 at 08:55:54 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  "the appropriate moment" (4.00 / 4)

      is now.  Why on Earth would you want to cut Bush any slack . . . cover his ass, as it were?  Every damn thing should have his name on it . . . failed levees, slashed FEMA, no real "Homeland Security", no "energy policy" . . . all of it.

      You sound like the "don't criticize the President while we're at war" crowd . . . like "give him a few more years to sort things out and then you can criticize" (in a history book).

      The meme is simple, direct, and now.  Katrina is not Bush's fault.  Failure to prepare for Katrina, and the unnecessary death and devastation that resulted, is Bush's fault and NO statement about any part of the unfolding tragedy should omit that fact.

      The "appropriate moment" is now and forever.

      •  No. . . (none / 0)

        Why on Earth would you want to cut Bush any slack . . . cover his ass, as it were?  . . . You sound like the "don't criticize the President while we're at war" crowd

        I want to see this bring down the Bush Administration, or at least reduce them to sufficient irrelevancy that they lose control of the policy making appartus.

        To do so, we need to avoid shooting off our ammunition when it won't do any good but rather keep our powder dry until we see the whites of their eyes.  That will be in a matter of days.

        Right now, Bush is doing our work for us.

        (But, notice, that when it does become time to start firing, we need to do so mercilessly.  After 9/11 the first reaction to Bush was extremely negative from both the right and the left.  Then, we gave him time to regroup.  We must not make that mistake this time).

        John McCain, you are _not_ my friend.

        by LarryInNYC on Wed Aug 31, 2005 at 09:23:09 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  "giv[ing] him time to regroup" (4.00 / 2)

          is exactly what you are proposing.

          People are asking "why did this happen, why is this happining" now . . . and we should be giving the answers now:

          We were unprepared for Katrina because:

          Bush wanted tax cuts for the rich, and

          Bush wanted a war on Iraq (for no reason or benefit except, perhaps, to Israel), and

          Bush wants "small government", not effective and humanitarian government.

          Why would you wait even a minute to say any of that ? ? ?

          •  because (none / 0)

            Because people are trapped on the roof right now.  Bush has the power to marshall resources and support to save lives.  Will that give him some temporary political help?  Yes.  Will you have plenty of time to make him pay for his foolish policies?  Absolutely.  New Orleans is wrecked, and that's not going to change tomorrow, next week, or next month.

            There is no upside for slamming Bush and his agencies and leadershp at a time when we need those agencies and leadership to save real lives.

            In two weeks his failures will be even more evident.  Already pouncing hard is being taken as democrats blaming Bush for the hurricane itself.  That's not a good strategy.

            •  What are you really saying? (none / 1)

              "There is no upside for slamming Bush and his agencies and leadershp at a time when we need those agencies and leadership to save real lives."

              I'm still not quite getting it.

              Are you saying that if we criticise the planning effort at this stage, that the agencies and leadership will stop doing their jobs and people will die?

              There's something about this that I'm just not getting.

              •  close (none / 0)

                I am saying that right now 100% of all energies need to be focused on rescue, mitigation, and immediate needs and as the weeks go on, rebuilding and repair.  

                Starting a big media theme about how this is all Bush's fault, or how Bush could have prevented some of the side effects, etc will be taken as "Bush could have prevented the hurricane".  Right now there are a lot of people who need assistance from the government, and having them thinking that the government is the source of their problem will make things even worse.  Half of the problem right now is that people didn't listen to the government in the fist place.  The last thing we need now is the devaluing of the governments authority and directives.

                •  No, that makes no sense. (none / 0)

                  Preparation for this has been utterly bungled. You're saying pitch in and help recover from the bungling, yes, that's necessary.

                  But the time to start taking actions to replace the bunglers is now.

                  We're going to have people making heroic actions to rescue victims. Those people are heroes. The people who made the heroic actions more necessary than they had to be -- those are bums.

                  It's past time to stop giving Bush the benefit of the doubt.

                  •  whats the difference (none / 0)

                    Whats the difference in doing it in 3 weeks instead of today?

                    There is nothing to gain but political ends, and much to lose.

                    •  Nothing to lose (none / 0)

                      Go read LGF or a Freepers site and tell me they aren't already politicising it.
                      •  so (none / 0)

                        They are.  They are wrong.  Are you wrong also?  That's the question here.  Will you be on the wrong side, or the correct side?
                        •  "I'd rather be right than President." (none / 0)

                          Dan, the question is no longer right and wrong. The question is "Does it work?".

                          We've been decent. Through two presidencial elections, decency has failed us.

                          We've been reasonable. Being reasonable failed.

                          The only important issue this country faces is to get rid of enough hack incumbents to impeach Bush.

                          This is the first order of business. Is there something you want the federal government to accomplish? Sorry, Charlie. It isn't going to happen until afterward.

                          If you want to argue that being nice to Bush is the right thing to do, tell me how it speeds up the impeachment process. Persuade me that criticising Bush will delay the impeachment process by one single day and I'll instantly stop.

                          •  stop (none / 0)

                            Dan, the question is no longer right and wrong.
                            Sorry.  That is the only question.  What is RIGHT and what is WRONG.  

                            If you want to argue that being nice to Bush is the right thing to do, tell me how it speeds up the impeachment process.
                            This isn't about Bush, or you, or your political goals.  That's the whole point.  This about people who are actually suffering.

                            When you ignore what is right and wrong you are irrelevant to me.

                            When your party starts doing what is RIGHT people will flock to it.  Driving people from Bush is only half the battle.  

                            •  You have lost reality. (none / 0)

                              If it isn't about Bush, it isn't about the federal government.

                              You want the federal government to do something right? That's a political goal. It won't happen until you get rid of Bush.

                              If you want to discuss the correct way to be a good christian while being persecuted by the imperial government, go ahead. That's valid topic for discussion. But I'm not up for that one. My topic is throw out the incumbent hacks and impeach Bush/Cheney.

                              If you want to say that criticising Bush means he'll allocate less resources to the catastrophe and more people will die, that's a sort of blackmail I can't give in to.

                              •  well fine (none / 0)

                                If you want to say that criticising Bush means he'll allocate less resources to the catastrophe and more people will die, that's a sort of blackmail I can't give in to.
                                Well fine.  I hope you like blood on your hands.

                                Like you can't wait two weeks.  His numbers are tanking and people are realizing organically that he's incompetent.  Running around barfing about him needing to be impeached makes you look foolish.

                                People are smart.  They'll know.  You just don't want to miss your golden opportunity.  Because you put your political goals above all else.

                                The fact is and remains that right now Bush is the only way to get anything done in NO.  Instead of helping you are personally hurting the effort to save lives and prevent more death.  

                                The world obviously revolves around you and your goals in your head.  Far be it from me or anyone else to suggest that it may be better to keep it under your hat until all the bodies are buried.  

                                •  I keep thinking you might make your point (none / 0)

                                  "The fact is and remains that right now Bush is the only way to get anything done in NO.  Instead of helping you are personally hurting the effort to save lives and prevent more death."

                                  You keep sort of circling around it without saying it.

                                  Are you telling me that if I criticise Bush, he'll withhold aid to NO to punish democrats?

                                  See, Bush isn't actually in the loop. It isn't like what he does has any direct effect on rescue operations, unless he tells people not to do things.

                                  The people who're doing the work really ought to be ignoring any criticism of their actions, they need to be busy doing the best they can, and look at the post mortems later.

                                  So how is it that criticising Bush for the mismanagement and misbudgeting that put us where we are now, how is that going to hurt the effort?

                                  Unless it persuades Bush to punish the innocent?

                                  •  no (none / 0)

                                    See, Bush isn't actually in the loop. It isn't like what he does has any direct effect on rescue operations, unless he tells people not to do things.
                                    Wait.  The whole two-disaster concept relies on the fact that the second disaster is bushes fault for poor leadership.  You can't go back on that now!

                                    So how is it that criticising Bush for the mismanagement and misbudgeting that put us where we are now, how is that going to hurt the effort?
                                    Good question, let me try one more time.

                                    I am all for nailing him for his failures, as I've said before.  Go for it.  Get the jugular.  I am just saying that doing now hampers his ability to lead, and does so for a number of reasons.

                                    For one, he needs all hands.  He's an idiot.  He can't do more than one thing. His political wing is the only wing.

                                    Second, he is in charge of a massive appartus.  His ability to act as head of that appartus comes only from a position of apparent power.  If he is apparently weakened he cannot control the appartus.  One thing that was always great about Clinton was the he always appeared to be in control.  He was smooth and collected.  Bush can't the stress of the vicious criticism he deserves.  Clinton could.  He could recognize mistakes, learn, change tactics as needed, and go forward stronger than before.  That makes Bush the worst president in history.  

                                    Finally, most people on dkos can understand the "two disasters" theory, but already the talk is that the democrats are saying that the "hurrican is Bush's fault".  That's how it's going to sound at this point.  Obviously this is not the argument, but that's how it sounds.  And that perception is damamging to people who are now homelesses, jobless, and hungry.  

                                    November rolls around, pound the shit of the idiot.  Get in gear and let it rip for 12 straight months.  Take out ads, do letters to the editors, etc.  

                                    But for now - although it's to late the damage on this issue is done - it would be better just to wait.  His fuckup isn't going away.  It's not going to be done with.  NO isn't going to be better in a few days.  It's just going to get worse.

                                    •  You seem to be heavy on the symbolism. (none / 0)

                                      "The whole two-disaster concept relies on the fact that the second disaster is bushes fault for poor leadership.  You can't go back on that now!"

                                      What? He cut funding. He chose incompetent hirelings to gut FEMA etc. He sent the experienced disaster-relief guys to iraq. And now you want him to do some mystical "leadership" that's supposed to make a difference?

                                      "If he is apparently weakened he cannot control the appartus."

                                      Ah.... Do you think the massive apparatus of disaster relief will work better with Bush leading it than it would on auto-pilot? Have you seen something that gives you that idea?

                                      "His political wing is the only wing."

                                      Yes, you understand that. There's no way to keep it from being political with him. So your advice makes no sense whatsoever.

                                      "... already the talk is that the democrats are saying that the "hurrican is Bush's fault".  That's how it's going to sound at this point."

                                      Of course. That's republican spin control. Do you think if we just politely give them a few months head start that they'll be polite back? You think they won't use their headstart to the ultimate? Give them time, and if you say anything about the hurricane that isn't praising Bush even normal people will tend to hear you saying the hurricane was Bush's fault. These guys are good that way. They aren't good at anything but spin, but they're real good at that.

                                      Your stand makes no sense. It's like you're going into a boxing ring, and somebody gives you the advice, "Don't hit back the first few rounds, the audience wouldn't like it. Just stand there with your arms down and let him hit you for four rounds and then in the fifth round you can hit back as hard as you like."

                                      •  it;s not a game (none / 0)

                                        It's like you're going into a boxing ring, and somebody gives you the advice, "Don't hit back the first few rounds, the audience wouldn't like it. Just stand there with your arms down and let him hit you for four rounds and then in the fifth round you can hit back as hard as you like."
                                        It's not a game!  It's not a contest!  It's human lives!  Real people!

                                        Real people!

                                        So what - bush gets a pass for 5 weeks.  SO WHAT.  So his machine goes on the offensive for a few weeks.

                                        SO WHAT.

                                        If it was your life, would it be worth it?  Because that's what at stake here.

                                        Politics, or life.  Bush will choose Politics, because that's who he is.

                                        The question is not what would Bush do, but what will WE do.

                                        My opinion is that I support the President's efforts to provide relief and shelter for those in need.

                                        •  That's a nonsequitur. (none / 0)

                                          Of COURSE we want Bush to approve further relief efforts. What possible justification could he have for not doing that?

                                          How can he possibly justify the inaction so far?

                                          "Oh, we aren't allowed to help because the governor hasn't gotten around to giving us permission."

                                          Look -- when the tsumani hit, Bush made a token donation. And after he got a lot of criticism, he scrounged up some more aid.

                                          Do you think he'll do less if he gets criticised this time, or more?
                                          Look -- people's lives are at stake. And the only thing that can get Bush to give the federal government permission to help is massive criticism.

                                          And you want to play nice-nice until after the crisis is over because you don't want to accept a political advantage. It's people like you who're responsible for Bush being president in the first place.

                                          •  and it's (none / 0)

                                            It's people like you who're responsible for Bush being president in the first place.
                                            It's people like yourself who have caused the DNC to shed voters that would have always gone traditionally the democrat candidate.  

                                            It's absurd.  It's shooting yourself in the foot.  Bush is falling on his face, and the only thing slowing him down is people like yourself shouting about impeachment.  

                                            It's a crisis and all you can talk about is politics.  

                                            •  You're almost there (none / 0)

                                              So, tell me, why would otherwise-sensible voters listen to the Swiftboaters and it gets them to vote for Bush, but they listen to me and it gets them to vote for Bush?

                                              What are the scummy republicans doing right that I'm doing wrong?

                                            •  You're almost there (none / 0)

                                              So, tell me, why would otherwise-sensible voters listen to the Swiftboaters and it gets them to vote for Bush, but they listen to me and it gets them to vote for Bush?

                                              What are the scummy republicans doing right that I'm doing wrong?

                                              •  what? (none / 0)

                                                What are the scummy republicans doing right that I'm doing wrong?
                                                It's mostly just demographics.  The democrat base has been shrinking unionized households have dropped, blacks a % of the population has dropped, self-identified catholics have dropped, etc.  
                                                •  So why does it hurt you and doesn't hurt them? (none / 0)

                                                  They politicise everything, and lie about it.

                                                  I want to point out political implications on this one thing while it's still news, and you say it will hurt democrats.

                                                  Do you have an argument why it would hurt democrats?

                                                  •  yes absolutely (none / 0)

                                                    Do you have an argument why it would hurt democrats?
                                                    Many people around assume that because Bush's numbers are falling Democrats numbers are rising.

                                                    This is not automatically true.  Sometimes it is, but often, well, very often, it is not.  

                                                    This disaster is obviously worsened by Bush; and time will show that.  Going on TV and bitching about what a loser Bush only causes people to be defensive about the man.  Every democrat worth his/her salt in the country hate GWB already; the point is that the Republicans have to start to hate him as well to make any progress whatsoever, in anyway.

                                                    •  I still don't get it. (none / 0)

                                                      It sounds like you're saying if we actually point out what Bush has done wrong, it will make "people" be "defensive".

                                                      But if we don't point out the problems, people will eventually notice the problems for themselves.

                                                      Why would you expect people would notice Bush's idiocy quicker with nobody replying to the spinmasters?

                                                      When somebody starts a chain letter and a lot of idiots think they can each make hundreds of thousands of dollars from it, do you think the'd figure it out quicker if nobody told them?

                                                      Would people understand about Scientology quicker if nobody exposed it?

                                                      •  reponse (none / 0)

                                                        It sounds like you're saying if we actually point out what Bush has done wrong, it will make "people" be "defensive".
                                                        Yes.

                                                        But if we don't point out the problems, people will eventually notice the problems for themselves.
                                                        Yes.

                                                        Why would you expect people would notice Bush's idiocy quicker with nobody replying to the spinmasters?
                                                        Why quicker?  Because when partisan hacks start yammering people shutdown.  The same cast of clowns protest everything Bush does, at all times, regardless of merit.  When these people are yammering people shutdown and become dogmatic.

                                                        It's already happened.  It's too lote, this conversation is already over.  People choose your approach, and now, as predicted, people have shutdown.  Most people do not associate this disaster with Bush.  

                                                        Partisnship is infectious.  Once the same old cast of clowns starts yelping it's over - the battle is lost.

                                                        •  Partisanship doesn't have to be infectious. (none / 0)

                                                          "Partisnship is infectious.  Once the same old cast of clowns starts yelping it's over - the battle is lost."

                                                          Suppose you're right. And suppose by some wondrous chance everybody on your side understood and agreed and stayed quiet while people listened to the propaganda and figured it out for themselves.

                                                          If you're right, all the propagandists have to do is play both sides themselves. Some of them can pose as Bush supporters and others can pose as stupid Bush opponents, and that's enough to get regular people to shut down and ignore all the problems.

                                                          So your solution was never a workable solution.

                                                          Any other ideas? We need something that can work even when fanatics are yammering on two sides.

                                                          •  no (none / 0)

                                                            If you're right, all the propagandists have to do is play both sides themselves. Some of them can pose as Bush supporters and others can pose as stupid Bush opponents, and that's enough to get regular people to shut down and ignore all the problems.
                                                            Except that if the liberal/progressive voices shut down, and let bush pretend to be a leader, and hey, even get a bounce for some short period of time, Bush wont want to stick his puppets all over the place yammering.

                                                            It was workable, it happened after 9/11 to great effect.

                                                            Bush was an idiot to failed to prevent 9/11.  Fool.  Moron.  Yet criticism was bit for a few weeks, and it was for the greater good of the country.

  •  thanks I agree that now is not the time to play (none / 0)

    politics with this...Their are many people in many places in a few states that have answers to come up with for the future. The democratic party should be using this to show what peoples tax dollars pay for. Highlight the value of government and the need for reform...

    Reforum Dems.....

    As to the war just remember that many people do not still at this late time even think about the war... I am still in holding mode. criticize in individual races but not as a national democratic party message. It might be time in the next few months but for the time being wait and see is safer... (I mean we can still hope for a good outcome.) The problem is the spin of pullout, or wishing for failure for political reasons... something to be used against dems... So lets try and not be to hard on them ...

    DA...

  •  Saving Face (none / 0)

    It's clear at this point that Bush administration doesn't feel politically like it can leave Iraq even if it wants to.  Just like after refusing to meet Cindy Sheehan right away in Crawford, Bush could never meet her later.

    Does Katrina give Bush the opportunity to leave Iraq now?  He can claim (rightly) that he needs the manpower, money and equipment to fight a national disaster.  He can ask for assistance from the international community without admitting he was wrong about Iraq.

    I know I'm giving him too much credit.  My feeling is that the neocons want to stay there forever -- that that was the point.  Do you think there's any chance Bush can or will withdraw?  Is this a pipe dream?

    •  it could be (none / 0)

      It could well be.  Bush can declare victory in Iraq, leave the heavil fortified bases, and bring most of the guard and non-regular forces home.  
    •  Do you really think Bush (none / 0)

      could pry Cheney's cold dead fingers from Iraq?

      Dems will not hold impeachment hearings while Bill is campaigning with Hillary.

      by annefrank on Wed Aug 31, 2005 at 08:58:51 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Why would he withdraw the troops now? (4.00 / 2)

      They needed to be in their home bases 5 days ago not 5 weeks or 5 months from now.

      The rebuilding effort will draw carpetbaggers, scalawags and Halliburton to the feeding trough.

      This administration is like the reckless youngster who is admonished to not drive fast, not drive drunk, check the oil in the car --be responsible and trustworthy.  Well, we know shrub drove too fast into the war, is drunk on power, and never checks the adequate level of fluid for our economy.  

      Responsibility for building those levees was crucial to the lives, health, and economy of millions in the New Orleans area.  The consequences will also spread up the Mississippi and out to the rest of the country.  Symbiotic relationships.  That touchy-feely lib word there.

      Our... constitutional heritage rebels at the thought of giving government the power to control men's minds. Thurgood Marshall

      by bronte17 on Wed Aug 31, 2005 at 09:22:43 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I'm not saying it would help (none / 0)

        But Bush is know for doing things for the wrong reasons... I guess I'm just hoping that this time he'll do the right thing (bring the troops home) for the wrong reason (political expediency).

        Your "youngster" metaphor is perfect, by the way.

  •  I believe it IS a time for politics (4.00 / 15)

    as I wrote on another thread, the turds were blaming Clinton for 9/11, THE DAY IT HAPPENED. This admin has very real culpability and it needs to get publicized.
    •  Definitely agree (none / 0)

      That is why I wrote this diary re:  BBC report stating that the monthly costs of the war in Iraq are higher than Vietnam!  (Costs adjsuted for inflation)

      "Those who cannot learn from history are doomed to repeat it." George Santayana

      by Street Kid on Wed Aug 31, 2005 at 08:50:35 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Greed kills - accountability's a nonpartisan issue (4.00 / 2)

      Forget pre-emptive hatemongering: it's not politicking or partisan nitpicking to demand answers from ANY sitting government.

      This administration's incompetence, corruption and greed are killing people at an appalling rate. If people demand answers when a story is fresh, they dodge accountability by calling it partisan politics. When things cool down, they dodge accountability by saying it's "old news".

      Jesus. Who cares what some sqwawking points hatemonger spews to his/her shriveling audience.

      When death and suffering are preventable, it's a crime NOT TO ask hard questions. Anyone who backs away from engaging the worst administration in history cause some hatebot might call them a name should be ashamed of themselves.

    •  It's definitely time (none / 0)

      With Bush's poll numbers where they are, and the MSM waking up and fumbling toward journalism, it should be relatively safe for even our brave Dem leaders to start jumping in the pool.
  •  We Don't Need to Fear Emboldening an Enemy (4.00 / 9)

    It's not an enemy attack he's bungling here, it's one of the much more frequently-needed core missions of government.

    The President is fair game.

    He's screwed up everything and millions of people are paying the price. They need real leaders to stand up and point to the man and the movement that fattened themselves by exposing us to the thoroughly predicted wrath of nature.

    We are called to speak for the weak, for the voiceless, for victims of our nation and for those it calls enemy.... --ML King "Beyond Vietnam"

    by Gooserock on Wed Aug 31, 2005 at 08:40:18 PM PDT

  •  I don't know... (4.00 / 4)

    I think Bush used up his "accountability-free moment" sometime on September 11 2001.
  •  Not to hijack your diary, Armando but... (4.00 / 15)

    I'm going to be off the boards for the forseeable future.  All expenses paid trip to the Big Easy.  I always wanted to go there, but I wasn't desperate.

    Keep donating what you can to the Red Cross and other organizations.  Don't worry about me, I'll be doing a traditional Guard mission, and that's a good thing.

    I don't know where exactly we're going, and I doubt there will be much in the way of phones or internet available, so I won't be checking in for a while.

    Take it easy, and keep up the good fight.

    I'll catch you all on the flipside.

    "I don't belong to an organized political party. I'm a democrat."--Will Rogers

    by soonergrunt on Wed Aug 31, 2005 at 08:41:36 PM PDT