Daily Kos

Rightwingers Try to Shore Up Bush's Crumbling post-Katrina Support. Take the Poll.

by Meteor Blades

Sat Sep 03, 2005 at 01:49:00 PM PDT

Update [2005-9-3 17:2:6 by Armando]: From the diaries by Armando.

While the most recent poll shows Americans decidedly of the opinion that the Feds have failed to do enough to help the victims of Katrina, the rightwingholes are countering criticism of Bush with all kinds of interesting commentary. A few samples:

According to James S. Robbins at the National Review On-Line, there IS no crisis with the National Guard and our military has not been denuded by the war in Iraq. After all, he notes, only a third of Louisiana's NG is in Iraq, and they'll be home soon.

And then there is Ben Stein's 13-point paean to Bush - Get Off His Back - in The American Spectator:
   

11.) If the energy the news media puts into blaming Bush for an Act of God worsened by stupendous incompetence by the New Orleans city authorities and the malevolence of the criminals of the city were directed to helping the morale of the nation, we would all be a lot better off. ...

    13.) The entire episode is a dramatic lesson in the breathtaking callousness of government officials at the ground level. Imagine if Hillary Clinton had gotten her way and they were in charge of your health care.


The folks over at Power Line say "The City of New Orleans and its residents owe the President a profound debt of gratitude" because he personally appealed to Gov. Blanco to issue a mandatory evacuation order ahead of the storm.

And then there is the plethora of egregious commentary blaming Mayor Nagin, Governor Blanco and the victims who "weren't smart enough" to leave New Orleans or Biloxi or Pass Christian when they had the chance.

I'm sure Kossacks have seen plenty such examples of their own. [UPDATE: For instance, see Jonathan's Diary.]

Over the past few years, I've become ever more skeptical when some new event, some new scandal, some new outrage has occurred that I thought would finally shatter Dubyanocchio's grip on that portion of his supporters who actually have brains. Over and over again, when it's appeared that the man's number was up, I've been disappointed. And that may happen again this time around.

But, in the midst of this horrible disaster, as with the on-going disaster in Iraq, there's something genuinely heartening in seeing what seems to be an accumulation of disgust toward the man who I think it's clearer than ever is the Worst. President. Ever.

Poll

Bush's Handling of Katrina ...

63%1184 votes
23%437 votes
6%130 votes
3%68 votes
3%58 votes

| 1877 votes | Vote | Results

Tags: (all tags) :: Previous Tag Versions

Permalink | 356 comments

  •  As JamesTown demonstrated... (4.00 / 9)

    ...there are some people for whom nothing, not even the threat of death, can evoke a change in thinking.  Such is the case with Bush's cult.

    By the way, I noted this evolving wingnut talking point, as well as some rebuttals, in this diary.

    by Jonathan on Sat Sep 03, 2005 at 01:50:07 PM PDT

    •  But independant minds can be swayed (none / 0)

      Bush's cult follower will stay behind the cult leader. But there is a vast pool of independant minds out there, ready to believe what they see and hear.
      And if Iraq is too far to see, New Orleans isn't.
      So they need to see and hear our message!
      We all have an angle to comment on the lack of preparedness, the missing national guard and equipment, our environment, the nepotism that put incompetent croonies in power at FEMA, etc...

      Check (and bookmark) these tips to Write Letters to the Editors (in the Activism Toolkit on the right; the tips include a link to the Media Database to find local papers to target), and fire away!

      "Katrina was a natural disaster.
      But the thousands of deaths of people left behind underfunded levees, neither evacuated nor rescued, was a man-made disaster."

      Don't just complain, Take Action.

      Don't just complain, Take Action.

      by cyrilb on Sat Sep 03, 2005 at 02:46:57 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I agree (none / 0)

        And the minority of true-blue Bush-blinded supporters is becoming ever smaller.

        It's important to remember that even during the height of Watergate, Nixon "enjoyed" a core of supporters amounting to around 25% of the nation's population.  And that was without a dedicated propaganda machine to provide wanna-be supporters with a rationale to stick with him.

        There truly is a significant minority of gibbering, drooling trogodytes in this country and in the human population as a whole.  You'll never get rid of that; all you can do is marginalize it as the group of psychos they are and keep them far from the reigns of power.

        by Jonathan on Sat Sep 03, 2005 at 02:57:35 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  Of course they are. (none / 1)

     These guys are doubly motivated, they want to help the man who has helped them and they want to shore up their own reputations. They backed this horse, and they don't want to look like fools.

     Like you, I worry that the whole mess will somehow manage to bypass BuchCo. I can see a little of that happening with the growing Fed presence in NOLA. The thing is, it's hard to forget the outrage that we all were feeling during this week of Hell. And the more the Feds do, the more you can't help but see what they could have done.

    Edwards Democrat voting for Obama would like to remind you, "Concentration Moon, over the camp in the valley" Frank Zappa knew.

    by high uintas on Sat Sep 03, 2005 at 01:53:13 PM PDT

  •  I don't get it (4.00 / 9)

    Imagine if Hillary Clinton had gotten her way and they were in charge of your health care.

    What's health care?

    I'm lost.

    "If you don't want to fight for the future and you can't figure out how to beat these people then find something else to do." BILL CLINTON, Sat Oct 29, 2005

    by DriftawayNH on Sat Sep 03, 2005 at 01:53:57 PM PDT

  •  Over at TPM Cafe (4.00 / 6)

    Jonathon Cohn blogs Chertoff's press conference today, in which he tries to perpetuate the "no one imagined the levees being breached" lie. I suppose it's some sort of belated attempt to provide Bush cover, so he's not seen as the only idiot. Either that or they're betting on the repitition of that statement working it's way into the public psyche like the lie that Iraq had anything to do with the 9/11.

    "There is danger from all men. The only maxim of a free government ought to be to trust no man living with power to endanger the public liberty." - John Adams.

    by mcjoan on Sat Sep 03, 2005 at 01:54:13 PM PDT

  •  I heard last night... (4.00 / 4)

    Micheal Reagan saying that the Dep. of Homeland Security is only to deal with terrorism and not with natural disasters.  I was like WTF! This guy is insane.

    So sent a comment on his web-page to check the DHS website were it clearly says that DHS is responsible for dealing with natural disasters.

    "Its when murder is justice that martyrs are made..." Lamb of God

    by Darth Codis on Sat Sep 03, 2005 at 01:54:47 PM PDT

    •  Primary Responsibility (none / 0)

      Until its scrubbed from the DHS website.

      Notice: This Comment © ROGNM

      by ROGNM on Sat Sep 03, 2005 at 02:10:14 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  no shit huh (none / 0)

        Too bad for them they can't scrub Chertoff and Brown's dumb-ass, inept comments they've made on television.

        "Its when murder is justice that martyrs are made..." Lamb of God

        by Darth Codis on Sat Sep 03, 2005 at 02:28:28 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Who's in charge here? (4.00 / 10)

        Well... FEMA says the PRESIDENT is in charge.

        The President shall insure that all appropriate Federal agencies are prepared to issue warnings of disasters to State and local officials.

        The President shall direct appropriate Federal agencies to provide technical assistance to State and local governments to insure that timely and effective disaster warning is provided.

        Immediately upon his declaration of a major disaster or emergency, the President shall appoint a Federal coordinating officer to operate in the affected area.

        In order to effectuate the purposes of this Act, the Federal coordinating officer, within the affected area, shall--

           1. make an initial appraisal of the types of relief most urgently needed;
           2. establish such field offices as he deems necessary and as are authorized by the President;
           3. coordinate the administration of relief, including activities of the State and local governments, the American National Red Cross, the Salvation Army, the Mennonite Disaster Service, and other relief or disaster assistance organizations, which agree to operate under his advice or direction, except that nothing contained in this Act shall limit or in any way affect the responsibilities of the American National Red Cross under the Act of January 5, 1905, as amended (33 Stat. 599) [36 U.S.C. §§ 1 et seq.]; and;
           4. take such other action, consistent with authority delegated to him by the President, and consistent with the provisions of this Act, as he may deem necessary to assist local citizens and public officials in promptly obtaining assistance to which they are entitled.;
           5. When the President determines assistance under this Act is necessary, he shall request that the Governor of the affected State designate a State coordinating officer for the purpose of coordinating State and local disaster assistance efforts with those of the Federal Government.

        by debraz on Sat Sep 03, 2005 at 02:34:28 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Exactly (4.00 / 2)

          This is the Stafford Act (amended in 2000).  I came across it earlier today.  It spells out the responsibility of the President.

          The important thing here is that this was an Act of Congress, passed under Congress' constitutional authority to promote the general welfare (Article I, Section 8).  The President, as chief law enforcement officer, is bound to carry out and enforce the law.  And that's over and above the President's basic duty to protect and defend the American people, and the principles of basic human decency.

          As Editor & Publisher say today, Bush's performance is nothing less than a dereliction of duty.

          by Jonathan on Sat Sep 03, 2005 at 03:09:50 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Exactly (none / 0)

            And the Patriot Act actually expanded the powers. As I read this, under the Stafford Act, not only don't the Feds don't need an invite from anybody - the opposite is true - states who don't want the help must request a FEMA waiver!

            "Any Federal agency charged with the administration of a Federal assistance program may, if so requested by the applicant State or local authorities, modify or waive, for a major disaster, such administrative conditions for assistance as would otherwise prevent the giving of assistance under such programs if the inability to meet such conditions is a result of the major disaster."

            by debraz on Sat Sep 03, 2005 at 04:03:11 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

        •  Mennonite Disaster Srevice?! (none / 0)

          WTF is this doing being specifically named?

          by astuar on Sat Sep 03, 2005 at 04:44:21 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  Who's in Charge? The Worst President. Ever. (4.00 / 2)

          ...and the political cronies he surrounds himself with.

          The final words of Meteor Blades' diary.
          Visually, it just 'writes' itself.

          www.epluribusmedia.org

          by kiw on Sat Sep 03, 2005 at 04:52:58 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  was the Federal coordinating officer appointed??? (none / 0)

          Immediately upon his declaration of a major disaster or emergency, the President shall appoint a Federal coordinating officer to operate in the affected area.

          when was he appointed, and what is his name ???

          george recieved a request to declare a disaster on the 28th

          who is the federal coordinating officer, and where the fuck is the guy right now ???

          by knowthings on Sat Sep 03, 2005 at 05:50:53 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  Michael Reagan's dad (none / 0)

      didn't nickname him "schmuck" for nothing.

      Sometimes a .sig is just a .sig.

      by rhubarb on Sat Sep 03, 2005 at 04:28:32 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Does anyone but me remember the wingers on 9/11 (4.00 / 8)

    saying "Imagine if Al Gore was president! How fucked would we be! He would do nothing, he would want to send cookies to the enemy! How lucky we are to have a Man of Action as president!"

    And even as Bush has failed miserablyTM over and over again, they have still made excuses, saying "But what if Al Gore had been president on 9/11?"

    That's been their defense - that no matter how bad he is, he's still Not As Bad As the hypothetical Gore presidency of their steretyped imaginations.

    Finger pointing for real and imagined, totally retrofitted Democratic failings is what this presidency is founded on.

    Of course they don't want us turning the mirror back on them.

    "Don't be a janitor on the Death Star!" - Grey Lady Bast (change @ for AT to email)

    by bellatrys on Sat Sep 03, 2005 at 01:55:56 PM PDT

  •  well, i think (none / 0)

    bu$hco's pug strong father card is useless now.

    American Fascism 101 A Must Read

    by cognitive dissonance on Sat Sep 03, 2005 at 01:56:21 PM PDT

  •  I think it's going to hurt them a lot sooner [nt] (4.00 / 2)

    "Don't be a janitor on the Death Star!" - Grey Lady Bast (change @ for AT to email)

    by bellatrys on Sat Sep 03, 2005 at 01:56:32 PM PDT

    •  and if not... (none / 0)

      ...this disaster is not going away. over a million people are going to be essentially homeless for 1-3 months without any ability to even check and see if their houses are still standing.  

      And that's just the begining of the road to rebuild.

      I think we've passed the worst as far as human suffering is concerned, but we have not yet even BEGUN to feel the economic impact of this.  not by a longshot.

      I suspect this christmas will tip the scales economicly.  I think this is going to be a dismal holiday season for retailers.  and that is going to be the straw that broke the american economy's back.

      If you can't stand the heat, don't play with matches.

      by DawnG on Sat Sep 03, 2005 at 03:16:49 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  1-3 months is way too optimistic... (none / 0)

        [snip] ...this disaster is not going away. over a million people are going to be essentially homeless for 1-3 months without any ability to even check and see if their houses are still standing.   [snip]

        Actually, for those having to completely rebuild their lives, 1-3 months is way too optimistic. It's going to take more like a year, and probably longer. And that does not include the mental and emotional effects that will have to be handled (counseling, etc).

        The overwhelming majority of the refugees will have some degree of PTSD for the rest of their lives. Learning to live with this will entail counseling, rebuilding fragile self-defenses (and self-esteem issues), and lots of external support while they are learning, literally, how to live again.

        When we called "Operation Share Your Home" we were even asked if we understood the long-term possibility of our offer. We said yes, and the lady we talked to was very relieved that we understood what we were pledging to do. Apparently, some folks thought it would be a cake-walk, but she said no one, at least that she talked to, backed out once the situation was explained to them.

        We are praying our family gets here soon, b/c the sooner we get them settled, the sooner we can help them begin to heal and rebuild their lives.

        JM5CW...

        In Love and Light...
        Rev Denise Michel

        by rev denise michel on Sat Sep 03, 2005 at 03:46:05 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  counseling? (none / 0)

          they can hardly get them food and water.  No one is going to give them counseling.

          I agree they'll need it, but don't look to the government to offer it.  They'll just tell people they're lucky to be alive and get over it.

          If you can't stand the heat, don't play with matches.

          by DawnG on Sat Sep 03, 2005 at 03:50:30 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  RE: Counseling... (none / 0)

            [snip] counseling?
            they can hardly get them food and water.  No one is going to give them counseling.

            I agree they'll need it, but don't look to the government to offer it.  They'll just tell people they're lucky to be alive and get over it. [snip]

            Yup, you must have heard the official RC line. The RC rep specifically told me they didn't need anything like that in the area or in the shelters. Terribly short-sighted, but it is the official policy.

            FWIW, it is obvious (to me, at least) that the victims will be on their own, unless the rest of us step up and do what needs doing. So, it looks like we all have our work cut out for us, you know?

            In Love and Light...
            Rev Denise Michel

            by rev denise michel on Sun Sep 04, 2005 at 11:37:44 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

        •  some of them will never go back (none / 0)

          six months minimum to remove the water, just the water

          another six months to clean up the mess, destroy the damaged buildings, and haul off the garbage

          about next september, the power company and the other utilities can begin rebuilding their infasructure, and major roads can be repaired and paved

          once that is done, people can return to their property, or what's left of their property

          I'd say it will be 18 months before people are allowed to return to rebuild their homes

          people who rented houses, or lived in mutistory apartments will not be allowed to return until those units are ready for occupation

          average time of return might be 2 years, average rate of people who return in all of the affected areas might be as low as 50%

          this is gonna change America forever

          by knowthings on Sat Sep 03, 2005 at 06:18:45 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

  •  Could be a resounding victory for Repugs. (none / 0)

    These guys, led by Rove, will stoop to nothing to make black seem white, lies seem truth and evil seem good. We have watched them do this time and time again and nothing seems to change their supporters minds, as you have amply demonstrated. Bush himself could cut off Hinderakers balls with a rusty knife and powerline would still find a way to justify it.

    by duhnonymous on Sat Sep 03, 2005 at 01:57:03 PM PDT

    •  that may be (4.00 / 2)

      But the public will still remember the abandoned dying in the streets, in the shelters and the bodies floating in the floodwaters.  Some things can't be washed away.  And every hurricane that spawns this season will be watched with a suspicion because the people will wonder if they will be the next ones to be begging the faceless government to help them when they have no power, water or food.

      The government has gone from being a benevolent parent to a distant, emotionless entity concerned only with its own fate.

      Proud member of the Cult of Issues and Substance!

      by Fabian on Sat Sep 03, 2005 at 02:13:26 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Blame Management (4.00 / 2)

        This is the magic of the right, the assignation and absolution of guilt.

        People dying in the street, whose fault was that? The government's fault.

        So what do we need? Less government.

        There is no way the criminal response to Katrina is even partially the fault of the Bush administration or conservative ideology. That would require a psychologically-impossible acceptance of fault, when the root cause of the success of the right is guilt-avoidance.

        John McCain is anti-child.

        by GussieFN on Sat Sep 03, 2005 at 02:19:24 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Unfortunately (none / 0)

          that describes much of the American psyche.

          by corvo on Sat Sep 03, 2005 at 02:28:11 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  You people just don't get it (3.53 / 13)

          Katrina was a Natural Disaster and you're blaming Bush.  And the mess that New Orleans turned into?  My God, it was just horrific - those in charge in New Orleans did such a poor job.  But then ...... Bush flew in.  He brought in the Nat'l Guard and fed, clothed, and nourished those poor people and evacuated them to safe places.

          Thank God that Bush arrived when he did!!!  

          Just ask Richard Zuschlag, owner of Acadian Ambulance Services, like the CNN interviewer did.  Everything changed when Bush got there.  Of course, Zuschlag is reportedly a $50k RNC supporter and one has to wonder where the Nat'l Guard, MREs, water, copters, ships WERE from the time Katrina showed her path until when - the day Bush arrived.  Oh, one has to wonder if one has a brain!

          by Southern Mouth on Sat Sep 03, 2005 at 03:07:10 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Y'all did realize that I was being a snot (none / 0)

            Didn't you??  

            LIke I said in other posts, I have been sickened with the rest of you at the sight of the people abandoned, starving, dying of thirst, in filth that was unbelievable.  

            People remarked that the people were not being rescued because they were black and I just couldn't believe it!

            It finally made sense today .... Bushie boy arrived to save the day in New Orleans and elsewhere .... and to push that approval rating up.  Sickening beyond belief.  But I really do think that's the way it's going to be played and the lemmings will cheer happily for Bush.

            by Southern Mouth on Sat Sep 03, 2005 at 04:26:47 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  I saw him personally (none / 1)

            suckle a little babe at his breast--although the glow from his halo may have obscured this somewhat.

            Sometimes a .sig is just a .sig.

            by rhubarb on Sat Sep 03, 2005 at 04:31:44 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

      •  THAT may be but (none / 0)

        Diebold will still find they voted Republican at the ballot.

        "Take whatever you can, Steal whatever you can't take, Kill what you can't steal so no one else can have it." - Republican Business Philosophy

        by Pen on Sat Sep 03, 2005 at 02:27:10 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Exactly my point. (none / 0)

        Concerned with its own fate is all its ever been. Politics trumps competency. I certainly hope that the truth of this matter will not be forgotten.

        by duhnonymous on Sat Sep 03, 2005 at 04:27:38 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  More importantly (none / 0)

        We have video of people abandoned dying in the streets, in the shelters, and of the bodies floating in the floodwater.

        One reason that Mr. and Mrs. America have a short memory is because they aren't repeatedly assailed with video images of what has happened.

        by GOPhuckYourself on Sat Sep 03, 2005 at 04:39:37 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  Good ole Ben Stein. (4.00 / 4)

    "The entire episode is a dramatic lesson in the breathtaking callousness of government officials at the ground level."

    Carrying what has to be the rallying cry for the Bush apologists. Nobody associated with this administration is responsible for anything. Stein is basically blaming the grunts for the shortsightedness of their bosses. Policy means nothing. Budget cuts mean nothing. Diverting funds and manpower to fight a war for empire means nothing. It's those "at ground level" who are at fault. Just like Abu Ghraib, right?

    "I was so easy to defeat, I was so easy to control, I didn't even know there was a war." -9.75, -8.41

    by RonV on Sat Sep 03, 2005 at 01:58:22 PM PDT

  •  Bush supporters have big problems (4.00 / 8)

    I don't know what's wrong with them, but it certainly looks like some bizarre variant of sociopathy coupled with narcissism.

    They're revved up bigger and meaner than ever over this. Whereas Wednesdaym they were calling the survivors"icky" and "whiney" and "what is wrong with those ... uh ... people?", today they've got the entire thing spun as REVERSE RACISM!! that's right, REVERSE RACISM! and Nagin's fault and the failt of the environmentalists and worse.

    They're crazy.

    And I am truly for the first time ever not sure this country will ever recover from what Bush and these sociopaths have done to us --- because there's too many of their type among us.

    James Inhofe (R - Exxon): The greatest hoax ever perpetrated on the people of Oklahoma. - Eiron

    by cookiebear on Sat Sep 03, 2005 at 01:59:53 PM PDT

    •  I'm over it (4.00 / 3)

      I'm through trying to reason with these people.

      And I'm not the only one.

      Aloha!

      by wetzel on Sat Sep 03, 2005 at 02:10:14 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  looter society (none / 1)

      We are a looter society, or increasingly headed that way. I suspect part of the outrage over the looters was a bizarre type of jealousy:" i.e. They stole Tommy Hilfigger and I had to pay my 'hard earned' $60 for it !."

      It's basically take what you can for yourself, maybe a few family members, and to hell with everyone else.

      Hand in hand with this is suspicion, superstition and racism.

      by bigbay on Sat Sep 03, 2005 at 02:25:03 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Sorry Ass Ignoramuses (sp?) (none / 1)

      I've decided that my life has no room for them anymore.  I don't care if it is a family member or longtime friend.  Anyone whose "values" are so incredibly fucked up is not someone that I want to deal with and they are being unceramoniously ejected from my world.

      I'm at war.  These people are my enemy.  

      by AngryOne on Sat Sep 03, 2005 at 02:27:01 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  It's about time we started returning fire. (none / 0)

        We have more ammo.

        Want to make a difference in the media war? Kill your cable, write a letter to the company and give that money to independent media.

        by HunterKiller on Sat Sep 03, 2005 at 02:32:00 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  We Sure do!! (none / 0)

          The only problem is that when you try to explain to these mouth-breathers what is going on they divert the conversation.  I've already been accused of "blaming bush for the storm".  Can you believe it!!!  They won't discuss anything with anything remotely like logic.  They just change the subject and accuse you of being irrational.  

          by AngryOne on Sat Sep 03, 2005 at 02:38:44 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Wrong tactics. (none / 0)

            You shouldn't argue with Wingers, you should coolly and decisively dismember them.

            We should be using this, and Iraq, as the narrative center of very every election in 2006. We need to capture the heart and mind of the 'independent' and the 'moderate'.

            This is 'Lincoln 1860' at a tactical level.

            Instead of always attacking their acolytes, whose usefulness is only in producing smokescreens and distraction, we should go right after George Bush. He's weak, mumbling indecisive and foolish. Then we tie his ineptitude, using specific examples to every freaking R who supports his foolish adventures. We should use his failures as a narrative and provide c clearly articulated and distinctive alternative. Coolly pound the facts, then draw the emotional connection to the facts that are relevant to the audience. Contrast with the half of the `Two Americas' we represent. Repeat ad-nasuem.

            Want to make a difference in the media war? Kill your cable, write a letter to the company and give that money to independent media.

            by HunterKiller on Sat Sep 03, 2005 at 03:13:30 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Sorry I rushed this. (none / 0)

              I'm not the best speller.

              Want to make a difference in the media war? Kill your cable, write a letter to the company and give that money to independent media.

              by HunterKiller on Sat Sep 03, 2005 at 03:22:13 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  Nope (none / 1)

              Don't argue with them, I agree.  Coolly and decisively dismember them, I also agree with, but not because you want to win them over to our side.  You want to win that other guy standing next to him, the one who hangs out with him a lot but you know him to be fairly rational-minded, to our side.

              Fuck the wingers, they can have Bush.  We want those people for whom the scales may have fallen from their eyes this week about the true nature of the conservative agenda.

              by GOPhuckYourself on Sat Sep 03, 2005 at 04:42:31 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  You misunderstood what I meant. (none / 0)

                The dismembering is for the sake of the audience. Wingers are a prop to make your point and nothing more.

                Their strength is in controlling through abusive emotional confrontation, if you emotionally surrender to their taunts, and they are nothing more than taunts, you lose.

                It is a performance and they know it, but you don't and that's how you get hooked every time.

                Never argue with them, don't even attempt to make them understand your point of view. You talk over them to the audience using their 'arguments' as a comic foil. Be a hero for the audience, with the winger as the hapless sidekick.

                I don't respect wingers because I know they're liars and clowns. Everything you do after they open their oversized cakehole and spout something foul should be with the understanding that they are lying and bullying and you have no obligation to respect a liar or a bully.

                Want to make a difference in the media war? Kill your cable, write a letter to the company and give that money to independent media.

                by HunterKiller on Sat Sep 03, 2005 at 10:03:22 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Perfect summation (none / 0)

                  This is the perfect summation of how to "argue" with a winger:

                  "Never argue with them, don't even attempt to make them understand your point of view. You talk over them to the audience using their 'arguments' as a comic foil. Be a hero for the audience, with the winger as the hapless sidekick."

                  Excellent.

                  by GOPhuckYourself on Sun Sep 04, 2005 at 03:56:16 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

            •  I do try to discuss cooly (none / 0)

              I was explaining that the lack of the national guard being at home, where it belongs, was a mistake.  Had it been there it could have responded immediately, the shipment of troops into NO cost valuable time.  I explained that Amtrack and Greyhound had suspended services prior to the evacuation orders, that anyone without a car but with enough money to leave was trapped.  There was no government action to get these people out.  I explained that bush cut his vacation short by one day and was eating cake with McCain while people were dying in NO.  That Condi was laughing her ass off at a broadway show.  That a leader would have been there standing in the water with those people.

              Instead of discussing this with me he accused me of "I bet you blame the storm on bush too".  

              I've come to the conclusion that you can't talk to these people because they are aliens.  They do not and never will think like us.  What started this whole thing with him was when I told him that I've been crying for days over the dead woman in the wheelchair sitting there for 5 days and that could have been my mother, his response was "that's what they get for building a city below sea level."  That's a "values" view that I can never, will never, understand.  How CAN you ever change the mind or rationally talk to someone like that?  It's like talking to a vampire.  

              There are people that I have talked to that I have been able to reach.  Some I am still working on, they can be reached, but then there are some like this that seem to have absolutely no soul.

              It's chilling.

              by AngryOne on Sat Sep 03, 2005 at 05:39:54 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  This isn't an intervention, it's a war. (none / 0)

                And you are attacking the wrong problem.

                Want to make a difference in the media war? Kill your cable, write a letter to the company and give that money to independent media.

                by HunterKiller on Sat Sep 03, 2005 at 10:07:15 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  I agree (none / 0)

                  it is a war.  What do you mean though by I am attacking the wrong problem?

                  by AngryOne on Sun Sep 04, 2005 at 06:38:41 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  You're trying to convert wingnuts. (none / 0)

                    It doesn't work. Those people have defects and are generally immune to reason or compassion. I don't know what's going on in their heads, and I've become afraid to ask. They're only really 40 percent of the population at best, not a majority of the electorate.

                    It's not like I care anyway. The real electorate are the moderates and fustrated progressives who are either enabling this madness or not-participating out of anger. Your job is to inform them of what is going on and expose the lies that wingnuts spew out with robotic precision.

                    A few may get a bad case of conscience and come in from the cold, but it won't necessarily be because of anything you've done. Use them for props, not a Pygmalion project.

                    Want to make a difference in the media war? Kill your cable, write a letter to the company and give that money to independent media.

                    by HunterKiller on Sun Sep 04, 2005 at 08:02:23 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

      •  AngryOne is a mind-reader! (none / 1)

        [snip] I've decided that my life has no room for them anymore.  I don't care if it is a family member or longtime friend.  Anyone whose "values" are so incredibly fucked up is not someone that I want to deal with and they are being unceramoniously ejected from my world.
        I'm at war.  These people are my enemy.  [snip]

        OMG! You read my mind (and if you knew how totally  nutter my family is, you'd know that I am the undisputed purple sheep of my family)....

        Sometimes I wonder if they have even a micron of compassion or empathy. Hubby says, 'prolly not, now go to sleep, you need to rest.' Of course, Hubby thinks sleep will solve all of my problems with my family, LOL... (not sure if he means my sleeping, or having them put to sleep tho, most of the time {snark OFF})...

        It is a sad day indeed when our enemies end up being loved ones, sigh (as she contemplates the run-up to the 'Civil' War, yet again)...

        JM5CW...

        In Love and Light...
        Rev Denise Michel

        by rev denise michel on Sat Sep 03, 2005 at 03:56:06 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Just Plain Fed Up (none / 1)

          My family is a dysfunctional compassionless freakshow. I've been at loggerheads with them for my entire life.  I've been the black sheep since I could (and often would) voice my views.  My entire immediate family is cut-off.  Only my Grandmother, Aunt and Uncle and some cousins remain.

          It is civil war like, brother against brother.  

          I'm bringing this down to a level these idiots can understand:  "If you're not with me, you're against me".  

          And, btw, I only mean this to neocons.  I don't have a "if you're not with me, you're against me" policy toward people who may disagree with me on things, but who actually use their brains and have compassion for others.

          Sorry you got a nutter family too, rev!

          by AngryOne on Sat Sep 03, 2005 at 05:57:16 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  If they are that bad then stick to family matters. (none / 0)

            Politics should only be pushed if they say something offensive or politically inflamtory. Take personal offense and explain why youre offended with the truth you possess. Keep it stuble and low key.

            You're right, we are fighting a slightly more civilized version of the Civil War.

            Want to make a difference in the media war? Kill your cable, write a letter to the company and give that money to independent media.

            by HunterKiller on Sun Sep 04, 2005 at 08:07:18 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  Nutter kin.... (none / 0)

            [snip] And, btw, I only mean this to neocons.  I don't have a "if you're not with me, you're against me" policy toward people who may disagree with me on things, but who actually use their brains and have compassion for others.

            Sorry you got a nutter family too, rev! [snip]

            Got that same 'tude, what is snipped above (para 1).

            Actually, AO, I was going to commiserate with you too, but somehow omitted it from my original post. My nutter kin are one of the main reasons I decided to go for ordination.  I felt it was vital that someone in my family stand up for compassion, empathy, and just plain caring, even for strangers (and more likely, especially when it is for strangers).

            Hubby said we're not telling either side that we're taking in a family. He said the BS isn't worth it, and will detract from what we need to be doing (I agree with him, BTW)...

            SO, unless they find out by accident, they won't find out at all. Thank God for small mercies...

            In Love and Light...
            Rev Denise Michel

            by rev denise michel on Sun Sep 04, 2005 at 11:44:32 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

    •  asdf (none / 0)

      Their selfish, hate-filled souls are a disgrace.  Whatever God they worship must be weeping over them.

      by Silverleaf on Sat Sep 03, 2005 at 02:30:29 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  The Whole God Thing... (none / 1)

        is a con-game misdirection.  The only gods they worship are Mammon and Moloch.  Don't let 'em fool you...these are the most nihilistic, amoral, cynical individuals in America.

        "We're all working for the Pharaoh" - Richard Thompson

        by mayan on Sat Sep 03, 2005 at 03:10:30 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  there is no such thing (none / 1)

      as "Reverse Racism"

      Racism is racism is racism, and these assholes are practicing it on a daily basis.

      "Never, never, NEVER give up!" --Winston Churchill

      by rioduran on Sat Sep 03, 2005 at 02:33:07 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Let the whitewashing begin.... (4.00 / 4)

    They are working quickly to change the facts of this nationl disaster.

    I have been watching CNN and they have been great. I am afraid that their corporate masters will put their foot down, not to show the pictures of the trapped people, but only of their late arriving feel good rescue operations.

    Republicans : Socialism for the rich, capitalism for the poor

    by ctsteve on Sat Sep 03, 2005 at 01:59:54 PM PDT

    •  I think the damage might have have been done (none / 1)

      already. Its hard to undo images of babies dying in front of your eyes.

      It's a neighborly day in this beautywood. Relentless!

      by ablington on Sat Sep 03, 2005 at 02:08:06 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Hopefully (none / 0)

        I think we're dealing with gop "dead-enders" here.  I'm gonna go out on a limb say this current version of the GOP is in it's "last throes"

        what are the people - the great masses in the middle - gonna believe?  Thier eyes, or the increasingly disconnected lies of Chimpy McFlightsuit and his evil minions.

        When life gives you scurvy, make lemonade.... Seriously make some lemonade - it'll clear that shit up right away.

        by Edanger6 on Sat Sep 03, 2005 at 02:18:10 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  What will they believe? (none / 0)

          They'll continue to believe the Vacationer-in-Chief.  After all, any fault attributed to the administration is simply sour groups because the "Sore Loserman" ticket didn't win.  We must simply accept the fact that Dubya, as God's Chosen Son, is without fault.  Why should they believe their lyin eyes, when God's Chosen tells them otherwise?

          by Andrew618 on Sat Sep 03, 2005 at 03:03:33 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  Yes the damage is done.........but (none / 0)


        They are playing up Bush as coming to the rescue. Even if he was AWOL for four days or so they will quickly make him look the hero.  They just need to get the News Stations back on board and then re-write history....they have done this before.

        Republicans : Socialism for the rich, capitalism for the poor

        by ctsteve on Sat Sep 03, 2005 at 02:27:18 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Yes the damage is done.........but (none / 0)

        They are playing up Bush as coming to the rescue. Even if he was AWOL for four days or so they will quickly make him look the hero.  They just need to get the News Stations back on board and then re-write history....they have done this before.

        Republicans : Socialism for the rich, capitalism for the poor

        by ctsteve on Sat Sep 03, 2005 at 02:27:47 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  I Think There are Too Many Witnesses... (none / 0)

        on the ground.  The Iraq propaganda was able to flourish in darkness and secrecy, behind their previously indomitable stonewall.  Even that has been breached.

        This has happened, like a gangrenous wound, splayed open for everyone who cares to have eyes to see, ears to hear, a brain to think with, and a heart to feel.  Sure, there will be folks who don't meet that criteria...but don't forget, Bush was beginning to flounder at any rate.  

        Don't get me wrong, I fear what you do.  They are VERY good at what they do, the marketting of lies and the manipulation of symbolism and image.  But this has radicalized many, many people.  The thing is to keep the truth coming and the images coming out of N.O., Biloxi, Gulfport, etc. will speak for themselves.

        "We're all working for the Pharaoh" - Richard Thompson

        by mayan on Sat Sep 03, 2005 at 03:14:25 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  See Billmon. (none / 1)

      He nails it again.

      ..."In keeping with recent congressional practice, we will try to shield the president and the senior members of his administration from directly responsibility for this fiasco, although a few token resignations may be required this time around," the pair said in a joint statement. "Our primary focus, however, will be on figuring out how to throw billions of dollars in additional funding to the very same agencies that failed so spectacularly this past week."

      Senate Majority Leader Bill Frist expressed his own support for a cover up, saying it would follow in the "proud footsteps" of Congress's refusal to hold anyone accountable for the failure to stop the 9/11 attacks, the completely inadequate investigation into the Abu Ghraib torture abuses, and the Senate Intelligence Committtee's whitewash of administration efforts to cook the intelligence on weapons of mass destruction in Iraq....

      It would be funny if it wasn't both true and inevitable.

      by Mike S on Sat Sep 03, 2005 at 02:21:06 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  CNN yesterday (none / 1)

        On American Morning, one if their correspondents speakingveryfast and in a long string of remarks,
        said something to the effect that Congress seems to finally be overcoming its reluctance to exercise oversight over this Adminstration.  I though I had misheard, but a friend of mine caught it, too.  Too bad it was said so quickly, and that the sentiment will most likely be forgotten by the GOP Congress so absolutely.

        by Silverleaf on Sat Sep 03, 2005 at 02:34:01 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  Body Count (4.00 / 4)

    I think that the final body count, and it's composition (age/race) will pay an important part of how this goes down honestly.

    If it is relatively low, i think he does get to walk away from this clusterfuck (by low I am thinking <1500 or so)

    On the other hand if it is catastrophic (>10,000) i think he is toast - anything in between and i think a game is going to be played out with finger pointing everywhere.

    What is clear is that 9/11 changed nothing.

    Buckeye State Blog

    by Pounder on Sat Sep 03, 2005 at 02:01:48 PM PDT

    •  adendum (none / 0)

      when i say "low" and mention 1500 - that is a lot of people, but i think given the coverage people are expecting far more - so coming under the "estimates" would be considered "low"

      Buckeye State Blog

      by Pounder on Sat Sep 03, 2005 at 02:03:06 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Did You See The Reuters Story? (none / 0)

      A Reuters story about the victims of Hurricane Katrina included a story about a woman from New Orleans who did not want to ever return there because 17 people died in her home during the flood.  The death toll will be devastating.

      by eafredel on Sat Sep 03, 2005 at 02:05:28 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  The Death Toll will be Devastating (none / 0)

        But if Pounder's scenario is correct, the Official count will be exactly 9,995.

        Notice: This Comment © ROGNM

        by ROGNM on Sat Sep 03, 2005 at 02:14:15 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Just now (none / 0)

          on MSNBC I think her name is Cathy Thomas of Time mag is in Baton Rouge.  She said state and fed officials believe 45,000 people are still in NOLA.  Not at the Superdome or Convention Center but in the city.  She said the NG is not seeing them, maybe they are hiding but more likely in the coming days we will find a shocking death toll as the flooded homes are entered.  This is gruesome but Morgue duty alone could take months in NO.

          Free Barney!

          by demkat620 on Sat Sep 03, 2005 at 02:50:38 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  link? (none / 0)

        Do you have a link - for a list of stories I'm putting together about the aftermath? Thanks!

        "Why should we hear about body bags, and deaths . . . I mean, it's not relevant. So why should I waste my beautiful mind on something like that?" - B. Bush

        by The New Politeness on Sat Sep 03, 2005 at 02:17:10 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Nevermind - thanks - got it. n/t (none / 0)

          "Why should we hear about body bags, and deaths . . . I mean, it's not relevant. So why should I waste my beautiful mind on something like that?" - B. Bush

          by The New Politeness on Sat Sep 03, 2005 at 02:22:03 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  St Bernard Parish (none / 0)

          95% destruction and 30% of people are unaccounted for, according to the Vancouver Urban Search and Rescue team down there. Their blog is here.

          by sagesource on Sat Sep 03, 2005 at 03:03:00 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  blocks of Biloxi are gone (none / 0)

            whole blocks of the city have been reduced to foundations. If anybody tried to ride out the storm there, they are probably dead
            Gulfport looked similar to biloxi

            the death toll will be well over 10 thousand

            New Orleans alone might have 10,000 dead

            this one is going in the record books, and we will not know the final toll for atleast 6 months

            somebody on a different thread pointed out that in some small rural communities, no total count will ever be known, cause the whole community is gone

            by knowthings on Sat Sep 03, 2005 at 06:49:46 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

    •  can there even be an accurate #? (none / 0)

      I suspect the best that will be possible is a range.  

      No matter how cynical you get ... you can never keep up.

      by LegalSpice on Sat Sep 03, 2005 at 02:08:34 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  It'll be accurate... (none / 0)

        It might take them months.  But these poor souls weren't blown away or burned in a fire.  Most every dead body is sitting around intact just waiting to be discovered.  

        It'll be accurate enough but it will take a long time.

        If you can't stand the heat, don't play with matches.

        by DawnG on Sat Sep 03, 2005 at 03:20:32 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  They appear to be covering this up (none / 0)

      already, esp in MI where the death count in the many villages is clear but they won't report it.  They'll bury the dead and fudge the count the same way they stole the election.  And I hope they fail.  

      James Webb is a bigot. And an uber hawk. Stephanie Herseth is a bigot. Harold Ford, Jr. is a bigot. And so are those who support them.

      by NorCalJim on Sat Sep 03, 2005 at 02:17:15 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I'm going to ask my brother (none / 0)

        for the actual body count. He's in MS right now with his NG unit. He was called up Tuesday night at 10:00pm. I personally think he should've been put on ready sometime Friday or Saturday--saying, "Hey, we don't know how bad this is going to be, so just sit by waiting for the call to mobilize. We might need you and we might not, but we want to be prepared nevertheless." Of course that didn't happen.

        "Never, never, NEVER give up!" --Winston Churchill

        by rioduran on Sat Sep 03, 2005 at 02:37:09 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  2 days ago (none / 0)

      Off camera some red cross and fema people were talking about 15 000 deaths. And around half a million refugees.

      by williamreymond on Sat Sep 03, 2005 at 03:51:17 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Mass graves (none / 1)

      That was the first thing I thought about when I heard Mosely-Braun talking about the "mass graves".

      If you have "mass graves", then you most likely won't have an accurate body count.

      And I frankly believe that the Bush Administration would lie about how many people died in order to conserve their power.

      by GOPhuckYourself on Sat Sep 03, 2005 at 04:44:40 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Efforts to get the unspun record (4.00 / 6)

    Thanks Meteor Blades.

    It's important to make sure the facts are out there to counter these spinning opinion pieces.

    ePluribus Media member rba is constructing a timeline of the reaction (or non reaction) to official announcements in the run up to Katrina's landfall on the Gulf Coast. The more we have a clear picture of what information was really out there, the better prepared we are as a community to counter the propaganda.

    If any Kossacks would like to participate in rba's project, here's the link:

    Timeline of Reaction of Katrina News

    Come visit us at ePluribus Media Community

    by Cho on Sat Sep 03, 2005 at 02:03:30 PM PDT

    •  This timeline project is good because... (4.00 / 6)

      ...I read on the Freeper site that somebody there is doing her own timeline to prove Bush is being unfairly criticized.

      I am an anti-imperialist. I am opposed to having the eagle put its talons on any other land. -- Mark Twain

      by Meteor Blades on Sat Sep 03, 2005 at 02:05:32 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]