So Rick Moran of the Right Wing Nut House wrote at the American Thinker about 14 lies Joe Biden supposedly told during the VP debate. I've gone through and found that Moran either distorted or flat out lied multiple times in his quest to find "lies" from Biden.
Follow me below the fold for the debunking.
Now, I didn't rebut every single one of Moran's points, because I didn't find obvious distortions and lies in all of them. Just most of them. This was also originally written on Facebook, so my answers had to be somewhat short. So if you're wondering why I didn't delve into a treatise in one of these responses, that's why.
- TAX VOTE: Biden said McCain voted "the exact same way" as Obama to increase taxes on Americans earning just $42,000, but McCain DID NOT VOTE THAT WAY.
#1: McCain never bothered to show up to cast a vote in the first place. But the $42,000 line? It's a lie.
- AHMEDINIJAD MEETING: Joe Biden lied when he said that Barack Obama never said that he would sit down unconditionally with Mahmoud Ahmedinijad of Iran. Barack Obama did say specifically, and Joe Biden attacked him for it.
#2: This has already been fact-checked. Moran is wrong, and CNN calls this "misleading".
- TROOP FUNDING: Joe Biden lied when he indicated that John McCain and Barack Obama voted the same way against funding the troops in the field. John McCain opposed a bill that included a timeline, that the President of the United States had already said he would veto regardless of it’s passage.
#4: Nope. See the correction at the bottom of this FactCheck.org link.
- OPPOSING CLEAN COAL: Biden says he’s always been for clean coal, but he just told a voter that he is against clean coal and any new coal plants in America and has a record of voting against clean coal and coal in the U.S. Senate.
#5: He has a record of... huh?? No, he doesn't.
- ALERNATIVE ENERGY VOTES: According to FactCheck.org, Biden is exaggerating and overstating John McCain’s record voting for alternative energy when he says he voted against it 23 times.
#6: Oh, only 11 undeniable times. That's sooooo much better.
- HEALTH INSURANCE: Biden falsely said McCain will raise taxes on people's health insurance coverage -- they get a tax credit to offset any tax hike. Independent fact checkers have confirmed this attack is false
#7: McCain's tax credit just happens to be indexed for inflation, instead of the FASTER growing rate of health care, so that $5,000 shrinks every year. Just what "independent fact checkers" is Moran talking about?
- OIL TAXES: Biden falsely said Palin supported a windfall profits tax in Alaska -- she reformed the state tax and revenue system, it's not a windfall profits tax.
#8: LOL, Michelle Malkin's own site shows Palin DID support it.
- AFGHANISTAN / GEN. MCKIERNAN COMMENTS: Biden said that top military commander in Iraq said the principles of the surge could not be applied to Afghanistan, but the commander of NATO's International Security Assistance Force Gen. David D. McKiernan said that there were principles of the surge strategy, including working with tribes, that could be applied in Afghanistan.
#9: Nope. Sorry. Simply not true.
- REGULATION: Biden falsely said McCain weakened regulation -- he actually called for more regulation on Fannie and Freddie.
#10: Groan... so tell me, how did McCain VOTE on GLBA in May 1999? Talk vs. action, Rick.
- IRAQ: When Joe Biden lied when he said that John McCain was "dead wrong on Iraq", because Joe Biden shared the same vote to authorize the war and differed on the surge strategy where they John McCain has been proven right.
#11: Go back to his floor speech and listen to WHY Biden voted for that resolution. And the drop in violence was NOT the reason Bush and McCain gave for the surge back in January 2007.
BTW, John Aravosis found 18 lies from Sarah Palin. The worst were her lies on Darfur and on our troop levels in Iraq.
What was interesting was that I originally saw Moran's post in someone's Facebook note. I responded with the arguments I listed above, which prompted this response from another conservative. Here are his arguments in the blockquotes, along with my rebuttals to his arguments following them. And no, I don't suffer fools lightly. He started with the lie that Palin got more votes than Biden.
Actually, the reason that it was repeated and you're upset is because it was misstated:
The truth is this: Sarah Palin got more votes running for Governor of Alaska than Joe Biden did running for President.
For your information, Sarah Palin received 114,000 votes running for Governor. That was what the true line was, but because the media has thrown it around so many times, it's gotten perverted from its original impact.
Wrong. The line specifically came from Mike Huckabee's RNC speech, and he said mayor, NOT governor. Since you're so adamant that was the "true line", please provide a source for that claim. AFAIK, it originated with Huckabee. Do you have evidence to the contrary? Besides, this whole notion of comparing the number of votes someone got in winning an election to the number of votes someone else got in losing an election seems a rather pointless exercise to begin with.
And since you insist,
#1: If you were to read that, and go to the link with the actual claim analyzed, then you find out that Barack Obama voted for budget resolutions aimed at rescinding Bush tax cuts on anyone making about $42,000 or more.
Therefore: Barack Obama voted to raise taxes (by removing tax cuts) on people making $42,000 or more.
#1: Politifact rated it "barely true" for a reason, your protestations notwithstanding. You are making the exact same claim they already call a "gross distortion".
#2: I believe I already addressed this issue. But the precondition that is absolutely vital is that Iran allow independent investigators to enter the country and ensure that the centrifuges are indeed being used to enrich uranium for Nuclear Power Plants, and not for nuclear weapons.
#2: You say one thing, CNN says another. But since you brought it up, tell me, why is allowing inspectors inside a necessary PREcondition to even having a meeting in the first place? What exactly is so dangerous about discussing the role of inspectors AT the meeting? And why should I listen to someone who's supported the party and neocon philosophy of "cowboy diplomacy"?
#3: You didn't argue. Because you know it's true.
See response to #12-14. (I also used his words here against him later on.)
#4: There is a large difference in the two bills. McCain voted against and Obama voted for a bill that yes, would have given the troops funding, but also would have taken control of the war out of the Generals' hands and into Congress's hands. That is illegal. The constitution makes it clear that the President is the Commander-In-Chief. Congress can only stop a war by cutting off funding for it. That's the constitutionalist, legal, and ethical way to do it.
McCain voted for and Obama voted against a bill that followed the constitutional guidelines. I'd actually respect Obama for doing that, if he wasn't trying to delay a drawdown agreement now.
#4: Hmm, I'm no Constitutional expert, but I don't remember Republicans saying a timeline was "illegal" when we had the debate, just that it was irresponsible. You would've thought that it being illegal would've been the centerpiece of all their floor speeches, yet it wasn't. Why is that? Georgetown law professor Marty Lederman says the timeline is most definitely a legal thing for Congress to do, and was pushing for it. Who to believe, a well-respected Georgetown law professor, or you? Thanks, but no thanks; I'll go with Lederman.
#5: Your link points out that Obama supports clean coal. But it also admits that Biden did tell supporters that he opposed Clean Coal.
#5: Moran claimed Biden's actual voting record has been against clean coal. The link showed that wasn't true. And of course, just being for clean coal doesn't mean you want to start building MORE coal-fired power plants, when the technology does not exist yet. China ain't building clean coal power plants, lemme tell you. But if you want to harp on what Biden told a voter once, knock yourself out.
#6: Um...you just admitted that it WAS a lie.
#6: 11 were clear cut cases. The others, as FactCheck states, were when McCain voted against the mandatory use of alternative energy, or voting for exemptions to those mandates. Those votes were NOT what environmental groups were asking Congress to do. And when McCain votes the exact same way as global warming denier extremist James Inhofe on mandating alternative energy, do you really want to try to make the case that that somehow absolves McCain's record? I have no problem with Biden grouping them all together; those votes McCain cast were against letting alternative energy sources develop, no matter how much you try to spin it.
#7: I personally don't like either candidate's stance on Healthcare. However, McCain's plan would cost far less than Obama's government-mandated healthcare.
#7: I asked what "independent fact checkers" Moran was citing. You failed to answer that, unless YOU consider yourself one of those independent fact checkers, LOL. I also cited a study that showed his credit would depreciate with time. Per your own words, since you didn't argue that, it must be because you know it's true. ;-)
#8: Perhaps you really should read the links you're posting. And, if you're going to argue that it was a bad thing, perhaps you should take a look at Obama's plan...
#8: My point, which went completely over your head, was to refute Moran's claim that Biden "lied" about it. This isn't about whether I support every single iota of Obama's plan.
#9: Why don't you start looking at the sources the links you posted get their information from. For example, the CNN article it quotes: It takes things out of context. McKiernan said that he thought using the tribes WOULD work, but he didn't want the American Military doing it. He wanted the Afghan government, who know the inter-tribal relations, doing it. Plus, he just asked for 4 more brigades. (Surge-like strategy, anyone?) Also, you could say that a very successful strategy in Iraq, one that Obama also condemned, and that needs to be transferred over to Afghanistan is that of LISTENING to our Generals, not our legislators.
#9: You still don't get it, and you may never get it. McKiernan specifically said an Iraq-like surge would NOT work in Afghanistan for a variety of reasons, while you seem more like Bill Clinton in parsing the meaning of what the word "surge" is. I can only explain it to you, I can't make you understand it.
#10: Though it doesn't involve McCain, it does show the parties and their viewpoints.
#10: So... you respond with an unrelated video to the original point, which was about McCain himself. Again, how did McCain vote on the GLBA in May 1999? Did you not argue because you know it's true? As for the video, I've long said that both parties share the blame. But tell me, from that 2004 video, which party controlled both the House and the Senate in 2004? Which party had the votes in their committees to take action if they so chose to do so?
#11: So, you admit that it was a lie, so why are you arguing it?
#11: You're not making sense. You think that everyone who votes yes on a bill must have the same line of thinking for it? Again, go back to look at the reasons Biden gave and the reasons McCain gave in 2002. What did the bipartisan effort that Biden undertook with Dick Lugar, which the Bush administration rejected, say about authorizing military action? Was McCain on board with what Biden wanted?
#12-14: So, you don't deny them?
And I've got to start reading for class, so I will get to the other portion some other time. But I do have one question for you? Was the brainwashing painless?
The point wasn't to respond to every single one of Moran's points, because not all of them had glaring misstatements and distortions. But if you're trying to defend him getting only 28% of his statements correct, hey, knock yourself out. The rest of us still considered that a FAIL.
But if you want, here's what I think of #12. I think Biden was talking about American families, not individuals. But by all means, I beg of you, highlight this to everyone you know, that their plan would raise taxes for people making over $200,000, instead of just over $250,000. Especially to all the families in America making less than $200,000. I'm sure they'll be TOTALLY sympathetic to what you have to say.
(BTW, the Tax Policy Center has different numbers than what either camp is saying.)
Oh, and since you didn't respond to any of the 18 Palin lies I linked, again, per your own logic, you didn't argue, therefore you know it's true that Palin did indeed lie those 18 times. :-)
Ahh... debating wingnuts in the morning. :-)
So, what do you guys think? Were there more salient points that I missed that you would've included? Was I flat out wrong in anything I wrote? I don't claim to know much of anything about the economy or politics, so I rely on reading a lot of sources to keep up with what's going on. And I recognize the awesome collective brainpower of this community in understanding and dissecting a wide variety of topics. I'm curious to see if he'll try to respond again with more lies and misunderstanding of my points.
Anyway, if any of you guys encounter these talking points from the right-wing in the future, please use this to combat those lies and distortions.