Skip to main content

Coming off the heels of eight years of raping the nation’s treasury, conflicts of interest and cronyism that would make even the most corrupt people shudder in jealousy and outright lying and covering up for more lies, crimes and cronyism – one would think that the republican party blowhards should probably just keep their mouths shut – especially in light of the overwhelming ass kicking that Obama and the Democrats just gave them, the absolute rejection of their lies and corruption and philosophy and the favorability ratings of Obama and his picks so far (not to mention the complete cowardice and absence of Bush and republican leaders in Congress for the huge problems created on their watch).

Well, it took less than no time to find out that the spirit of bipartisanship according to republicans only extends to the Democrats bending over (take that term however you want) to accommodate their demands and whining.

My buddy droogie said the other day – "Daily Kos has a fever" – wondering what the focus will be on as the community finds a new voice in light of Democratic control in Congress and the White House.  And I think there is an easy answer here – as evidenced by the few examples I will note below.  Not only do we have the responsibility to move our elected officials more towards the progressive policies this country needs and voted for (not the "center right" crap being pushed), but also to shut the whiny assclowns on the right up and put them in their place.

And not only do they whine, but as I say in my title, their arguments just flat out suck-diddly-uck.

We can start with the "very serious questions" surrounding Eric Holder that are raised by Arlen Specter, Karl Rove and whatever other republican simpleton who is pre-programmed to yell "but but but BILL CLINTON!!" while ignoring, well, everything else.  Forget that Holder helped bring down powerful Democrat Rostenkowski.  It is the republican playbook special "latch onto something that can be blown out of proportion and run with it".

Well, for anyone that questions Holder (or anyone on the receiving end of questions about Holder) – there are three words.  Alberto.  Gonzales.  Torture.

There is also the one regret that Bush has - the "intelligence about Iraq was flawed".  Well, why doesn’t anyone point out the little fact that the "flawed" intelligence was made up by his own people in order to hoodwink the world into what has become a war crime-filled disaster and epic fail of the highest order?  There is no argument that "the intelligence was flawed" unless we are talking about Bush’s own intelligence.

But wait, there is more.  Much more, actually.

Back to Bill Clinton and how the donations and his financial ties "cause concern" about the countries that Hillary may have to deal with as Secretary of State.  Have we not forgotten that the Vice President made millions from his current financial ties to Halliburton while it was getting billions in no-bid contracts?  Or how the most of the Bush family (and then some) has financial interests in Carlyle with how many other other conflicts of interest?   Sorry – if nobody raised an eyebrow about this (or Cheney’s secret energy commission or Condi Rice’s Chevron tanker named after her while she was on the board of a company who had kickbacks to Saddam problems while she was overseeing their foreign relations, then please, kindly STFU.

Or the three stooges (McCain, Lieberman and Graham) giving advice on Iraq.  Three people who were wrong (and no, the surge did NOT work – especially the way it was intended to) every step of the way.  Three people who were in the forefront of policies that were soundly rejected by the American people (not to mention the Iraqis).  Sorry – but why should discredited losers start offering up their views as anything that should be taken seriously?  And why should anyone listen to or give a forum to these points and arguments?  Might as well have Kristol, Perle and Cheney tell Obama what they need to do about Iraq.

But the funniest is the so-called "pontificating" by the rightist dimwits about what the Blagojevich scandal means in terms of hurting Obama.  Have we not paid any attention to the fact that Obama and Blagojevich don’t really like each other or that Obama distanced himself a long time ago or that there is no actual link of anything other than being from the same state between the two?  Have we not forgotten all of the directly linked corruption scandals and conflicts of interest between state republican party officials and the national party (like Katherine Harris or Ken Blackwell or the NH phone jamming or the US Attorney firings or the myriad of other links between republican felon Jack Abramoff and scores of members of the Party?  Or the number of republican Congressmen who are under indictment, investigation or are linked to crime, corruption or "pay to play" ?

Sorry – you don’t get to feign outrage.  The credibility is long gone.  The reasons that are being conjured up are flat out invalid and irrelevant.  Bottom line – the republicans lost in every way on every level.  The policies failed.  The excuses failed.  The corruption failed.  The philosophy failed.  On an epic level.

The least that can be done is to either suck it up or at a minimum, not be so hypocritical and patently ridiculous.  And since that is not going to happen, I guess that answers one of the points raised in droogie’s diary.  Push back (or initially) harder and stronger against the concern trolls that have crawled out from under the rocks that they were put under.  Shame, mockery and dismissal.

If any want to help move the country forward again, great.  If not, then sorry – the nonsensical bullshit arguments will have to be smacked down.

Because the only thing worse than an inaccurate argument is an inaccurate argument that is ridiculous and hypocritical.

Originally posted to clammyc on Sun Dec 21, 2008 at 06:24 AM PST.

EMAIL TO A FRIEND X
Your Email has been sent.
You must add at least one tag to this diary before publishing it.

Add keywords that describe this diary. Separate multiple keywords with commas.
Tagging tips - Search For Tags - Browse For Tags

?

More Tagging tips:

A tag is a way to search for this diary. If someone is searching for "Barack Obama," is this a diary they'd be trying to find?

Use a person's full name, without any title. Senator Obama may become President Obama, and Michelle Obama might run for office.

If your diary covers an election or elected official, use election tags, which are generally the state abbreviation followed by the office. CA-01 is the first district House seat. CA-Sen covers both senate races. NY-GOV covers the New York governor's race.

Tags do not compound: that is, "education reform" is a completely different tag from "education". A tag like "reform" alone is probably not meaningful.

Consider if one or more of these tags fits your diary: Civil Rights, Community, Congress, Culture, Economy, Education, Elections, Energy, Environment, Health Care, International, Labor, Law, Media, Meta, National Security, Science, Transportation, or White House. If your diary is specific to a state, consider adding the state (California, Texas, etc). Keep in mind, though, that there are many wonderful and important diaries that don't fit in any of these tags. Don't worry if yours doesn't.

You can add a private note to this diary when hotlisting it:
Are you sure you want to remove this diary from your hotlist?
Are you sure you want to remove your recommendation? You can only recommend a diary once, so you will not be able to re-recommend it afterwards.
Rescue this diary, and add a note:
Are you sure you want to remove this diary from Rescue?
Choose where to republish this diary. The diary will be added to the queue for that group. Publish it from the queue to make it appear.

You must be a member of a group to use this feature.

Add a quick update to your diary without changing the diary itself:
Are you sure you want to remove this diary?
(The diary will be removed from the site and returned to your drafts for further editing.)
(The diary will be removed.)
Are you sure you want to save these changes to the published diary?

Comment Preferences

  •  before anyone jumps in (467+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    RichM, Alumbrados, paradox, Ed in Montana, OkieByAccident, Angie in WA State, Susan S, Donna Z, vicki, Terri, raboof, Bill in Portland Maine, Peace JD, ogre, laurak, kate mckinnon, gogol, Christin, melvynny, BigOkie, janinsanfran, RunawayRose, billlaurelMD, bramish, meg, Jay C, shayera, Midwest Meg, eeff, frsbdg, TX Unmuzzled, kdub, MackInTheBox, Bexley Lane, frisco, ZAPatty, sobermom, mataliandy, vrexford, dnamj, rasbobbo, opinionated, chira, bronte17, missLotus, conchita, TracieLynn, mentaldebris, mmacdDE, Cassandra77, understandinglife, ask, CoolOnion, highacidity, MillieNeon, Xapulin, chuckvw, roses, murphsurf, Jesterfox, nupstateny, Cedwyn, CocoaLove, sidnora, celticshel, dksbook, Brit, Eddie C, mayan, Lynwaz, emmasnacker, ranger995, thesunshinestateisdark, TiaRachel, White Buffalo, exiledfromTN, smarty jones, wdrath, chantedor, attydave, On The Bus, Sychotic1, snakelass, raster44, produceus, lcrp, riverlover, alizard, Pohjola, inclusiveheart, dkmich, ybruti, side pocket, KayCeSF, tomjones, CanYouBeAngryAndStillDream, bablhous, cartwrightdale, solesse413, avahome, xxdr zombiexx, pat208, Timroff, wolverinethad, TexMex, davidincleveland, Fabian, chumley, historys mysteries, Bluesee, marina, ZZZzzz, NoMoreLies, DianeNYS, bellevie, UFOH1, Elise, UncleCharlie, Nadnerb in NC, JanetT in MD, JaciCee, SherwoodB, relentless, chimene, irate, PBen, bitter fruit, Simplify, DocGonzo, truong son traveler, ChemBob, huckleberry, Brooke In Seattle, Turkana, Jules Beaujolais, owlbear1, bleeding blue, majcmb1, pasadena beggar, Existentialist, LABobsterofAnaheim, podster, optimo, QuickSilver, Ozzie, The Raven, Big Nit Attack, sodalis, Lisa Lockwood, LithiumCola, USexpat Ukraine, playtonjr, daddybunny, Ekaterin, empathy, murasaki, dancewater, kathny, Asinus Asinum Fricat, noweasels, begone, dehrha02, Mother Mags, third Party please, Nightprowlkitty, Do Tell, Patriot Daily News Clearinghouse, ravenwind, Pinko Elephant, mjfgates, vigilant meerkat, sherlyle, RustyBrown, 417els, Clytemnestra, BlueInARedState, Yellow Canary, cookseytalbott, martyc35, Samwoman, KenBee, IvanR, Partially Impartial, greenearth, Farradin, triv33, tecampbell, aepm, global citizen, 4Freedom, nonnie9999, Crashing Vor, imabluemerkin, FireCrow, JVolvo, happy camper, Dauphin, NearlyNormal, CTLiberal, Preston S, Potus2020, myrealname, soccergrandmom, doinaheckuvanutjob, MBNYC, quantumspin, llbear, Turbonerd, rage, CA Nana, profh, Persiflage, sarayakat, va dare, Lovo, fiddlingnero, Cassiodorus, Dreaming of Better Days, kurt, MadMs, shaharazade, airmarc, drdana, PhilW, Hovercraft Full of Eels, Friend of the court, coolsub, Hedwig, Temmoku, Aaa T Tudeattack, DemOrDie, DBunn, Thinking Fella, seabos84, AmericanRiverCanyon, One Pissed Off Liberal, flagpole, marykk, Buckeye Hamburger, ibonewits, dotsright, Cronesense, Duke S, JFinNe, randorider, blue armadillo, dmh44, california keefer, possum, NDakotaDem, moodyinsavannah, godislove, LV Pol Girl, EdSF, moosely2006, The Reverend and Doctor Omed, jds1978, TtexwiTyler, yowsta, kath25, operculum, Jimdotz, DWG, suejazz, drchelo, twinpeaks, newpioneer, Orange County Liberal, MI Sooner, jayden, GMFORD, montanajen, thursdays child, jnhobbs, millwood, Rumarhazzit, ImpeachKingBushII, Badabing, cloudbustingkid, willb48, TomP, Empower Ink, gizmo59, Red no more, MKinTN, alkalinesky, Dem in the heart of Texas, wondering if, coachster, rogerdaddy, TX Freethinker, ratador, RickMassimo, dotster, aisteacher, edison, MikePhoenix, OleHippieChick, joycemocha, indyada, dave1042, bythesea, Satyanand, skohayes, Cat Servant, Mannabass, lineatus, Archangel, Its any one guess, Haplogroup V, dewley notid, happymisanthropy, evora, Wek, pickandshovel, Jeff Y, rubine, tamasher, mofembot, Gemina13, phrogge prince, Jacques, luckylizard, chalatenango, James Kresnik, DixieDishrag, Goodbye Kitty, lenzy1000, binkycat, oobi, magicsister, CatJab, dmhlt 66, cactusflinthead, Scubaval, shortgirl, jlms qkw, CIndyCasella, ibinreno, ryangoesboom, LaFeminista, satanicpanic, wv voice of reason, SciMathGuy, bluemoonfever, Jacob Bartle, Mr Tentacle, christine20, WSComn, JG in MD, socalmonk, BoiseBlue, WereBear, jaf49, banjolele, Kairos, weltshmertz, janmtairy, notrouble, crazyshirley2100, earicicle, MsAnimated, SciVo, MingPicket, rini6, Daily Activist, glassbeadgame, Mercuriousss, redtex, Angry Mouse, ZilV, DClark4129, allep10, billssha, dotalbon, kevinpdx, IngeniousGirl, The BBQ Chicken Madness, newview88, Munchkn, elropsych, Knarfc, sherijr, FundaMental Transformation, Sleepwalkr, Tommymac, deviant24x, TenthMuse, Cleopatra, o possum, Lefty Ladig, Choom Gang Vets for Truth, BigVegan, ladygreenslippers, smileycreek, oohdoiloveyou, confitesprit, Sam James, RevolutionRock, ArtSchmart, LaughingPlanet, The Jester, eXtina, kjoftherock, Interceptor7, fidellio, stunzeed, chrome327, kemetcc, wvmom, FrankCornish, Radical def, sunny skies, legalchic, Man from Wasichustan, ATFILLINOIS, Dexter, gougef, snaglepuss, puffmeister, elginblt, AJ in Camden, pateTX, Micheline, addisnana, Johnny Q, Bizzerkeley, WedtoReason, MsGrin, skillet, Otteray Scribe, keonhp, bottles, science nerd, Always Thinkin, Its a New Day, Actbriniel, jeanma, NellaSelim, theKgirls, dmet, renbear, the girl, Colorado is the Shiznit, Verstand, kerflooey, Freelance Escapologist, FeloniousMonk, DoubleT, Mz LadyPhoenix, Olon, Wolf Of Aquarius, indigoblueskies, Laurdet, good aint it vern, The Son of the Devil Himself, blueinmn, zukesgirl64, Carolyn in Oregon, mniowan, athena47, bamabikeguy, sjr1, IT Professional, CKendall, najablah, gilead

    and jumps down my throat about "Obama says we need to get along" - just remember that we are not even 6 weeks into the post election season and it.  ain't. happening.

    Center-right country, my ASS.

    by clammyc on Sun Dec 21, 2008 at 06:25:32 AM PST

  •  There is ONE thing worse... (14+ / 0-)

    Because the only thing worse than an inaccurate argument is an inaccurate argument that is ridiculous and hypocritical.

    ... and that's a Sunday morning without pie!

    But other than that, I agree. And, in case you haven't noticed, not too many people are listening to their blather. Not even my wingnut family members, not anymore.

    The usual clowns are talk talk talk, but we are ignore ignore ignore.

    America, you have earned a new puppy.

    by pat208 on Sun Dec 21, 2008 at 06:32:48 AM PST

  •  What? (20+ / 0-)

    You think there should be one standard for Rs and Ds? Don't you know that's unpatriotic?

    :-D

    Warning: this comment may contain sarcasm or satire.

    by MBNYC on Sun Dec 21, 2008 at 06:33:58 AM PST

  •  I've been wondering just how much (4+ / 0-)

    weight Arlen Specter carries.  Is there a possibility that he and his buddies can derail the nomination of Holder?  Would anyone other than a republican vote against his confirmation?


    The religious fanatics didn't buy the republican party because it was virtuous, they bought it because it was for sale

    by nupstateny on Sun Dec 21, 2008 at 06:36:12 AM PST

  •  Excellent push back (15+ / 0-)

    and also, how quickly we forget. It is actually not surprising given the MSM's careening from one non-scandal to another, and ignoring the Big Ones. I am embarrassed that I realize that I "forgot" Cheney's involvement in Everything. Information overload? Selective amnesia?

    We All Know that we are in for a hurtin' time, and to spend any extra energy doing the but-but pushing back is quite heroic. I will attempt to emulate...

    Americans, while occasionally willing to be serfs, have always been obstinate about being peasantry. F. Scott Fitzgerald, the Great Gatsby

    by riverlover on Sun Dec 21, 2008 at 06:36:15 AM PST

  •  Great stuff! (19+ / 0-)

    There is also the one regret that Bush has - the "intelligence about Iraq was flawed".  Well, why doesn’t anyone point out the little fact that the "flawed" intelligence was made up by his own people in order to hoodwink the world into what has become a war crime-filled disaster and epic fail of the highest order?  There is no argument that "the intelligence was flawed" unless we are talking about Bush’s own intelligence

          The people who believed the lies are as responsible as the "Liars". I noticed something quite similar in today's NYTimes about the so-called housing crisis.

    There are plenty of culprits, like lenders who peddled easy credit, consumers who took on mortgages they could not afford and Wall Street chieftains who loaded up on mortgage-backed securities without regard to the risk.

          Those who borrowed the money are held to be equally as responsible as the lenders, who working on commission sold what they knew to be bad loans downstream with the knowledge that they would never be held responsible for the resulting fiasco.
    http://www.nytimes.com/...

    CHRISTIAN, n. One who believes that the New Testament is a divinely inspired book admirably suited to the spiritual needs of his neighbor. A. Bierce

    by irate on Sun Dec 21, 2008 at 06:36:28 AM PST

    •  The flaws were added on purpose (6+ / 0-)

      There is also the one regret that Bush has - the "intelligence about Iraq was flawed".  Well, why doesn’t anyone point out the little fact that the "flawed" intelligence was made up by his own people in order to hoodwink the world into what has become a war crime-filled disaster and epic fail of the highest order?  There is no argument that "the intelligence was flawed" unless we are talking about Bush’s own intelligence.

      That needs to be stated over and over again:

      "Of course there were flaws - because you put them there!"

      You don't need to protect me from someone else's spelling, grammar, extra posts on a topic, or use of quotations.

      by mataliandy on Sun Dec 21, 2008 at 09:21:49 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  People who took on mortgages (8+ / 0-)

      consumers who took on mortgages they could not afford

      has got to be the biggest red herring of the whole debacle. How does someone find out whether they can afford a mortgage? You go to a mortgage lender, and ASK THEM! Duh!

      You ask the good people at the bank, "Can I afford to buy this house?"

      And if the good people at the bank say, "Yes, of course you can afford it! We have this special mortgage package designed to make this affordable for people just like you! Sign here!"

      What are you supposed to do? Argue with the expert? Tell your banker, "No, I don't think so. I'm really not making enough money." ?

      Sheesh. People should really LOL whenever this is mentioned.

  •  It's interesting to watch the media (23+ / 0-)

    continue to try smearing Democrats by "suggestions" and "some say". They're trying with all their might to link Obama to Blagojevich while reinventing W.

    It doesn't seem to be working this time. I wonder if any of them realize what it's like out here in the real world. Even the republicans I know aren't buying it. It's just a bunch of white noise that matters very little.

    •  "Blagojevich" is this admin's "Whitewater" (4+ / 0-)

      CHRISTIAN, n. One who believes that the New Testament is a divinely inspired book admirably suited to the spiritual needs of his neighbor. A. Bierce

      by irate on Sun Dec 21, 2008 at 06:39:16 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Replacing Rezko, I assume? (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        irate, banjolele

        PALIN: I have a vast variety of sources where we get our news.

        by Big Nit Attack on Sun Dec 21, 2008 at 07:57:46 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  When you're in fear of losing your job (7+ / 0-)

        it matters little what people in the media feel is important to cover because they feel it will help them in keeping their jobs.  They keep screaming (hell, they've been screaming about Wright, bitter, rural white voters and all sorts of utter nonsense for the past year) but I don't think anyone is listening anymore. This country is not in the mood for Clinton media deja vu.  Irrelevance has been reached. Finally.  They are just screaming to entertain the NY/DC bubble now.

        Americans are too busy trying to survive or worrying how they are going to survive his economic tsunami.  And many of us aren't being bailed out, nor getting non-oversighted $200,000 bonuses for destroying the economy. What the pundits have to say about any trivial (and they specialize in trivial) matter is meaningless. But they are addicted to triviality.

        You don't reach out to intolerance...you shun it.-landrew

        by mentaldebris on Sun Dec 21, 2008 at 08:49:21 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  jeez, I hope you are right (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          mentaldebris, Radical def, Johnny Q

          because I live just outside of and work in the NY bubble (NYC, actually).

          And I never know if the level of bullshit saturation is even close outside.  But I hope it isn't....

          Center-right country, my ASS.

          by clammyc on Sun Dec 21, 2008 at 08:59:56 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  From my vantage it the media has (5+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            irate, clammyc, kurt, yowsta, Radical def

            become a circle jerk of elites who have no concept of living in the real world and only talk of things with which to amuse themselves. Like Obama shutting down the Blago questioning when introducing a cabinet appointee. The media were all, "OMG, he's going to regret doing that. He was being rude to us, the public will not stand for this evasion."  Whine, whine, whine. The public response was, "Good. It was a stupid question. There are more important things to talk about. Let's move on."

            Just as they were shocked when Obama won the debates in the instant polling after they tried to hand it to McCain, they have been dismayed that their usual circle-jerking faux scandals has done nothing to Obama's polling numbers.  They aren't getting through anymore because the public has been there and done that and got four more years of George Bush as a result of it.

            Imagine someone+ using Daily Kos for their single solitary news sources and getting caught in the riptide of the latest story du jour and thinking the whole world are as caught up in it as they are.  DK is a bubble too.  And someone spending 12 of the last 24 hours doing nothing else but hashing a single issue out is going think it's the most important story or issue in the world. That's the media now.  They are that person.  Day in and day out, not looking beyond the latest story du jour. Difference is, the media is suppose to look deep and look beyond. Problem is, they have to fill 24 hours of airtime and make money.  Voila! Irrelevance.

            +Any resemblance to a real Kossack is strictly unintentional. Although admittedly I've been in that bubble from time to time myself. Maybe not for 12 hours straight. I think. :)

            You don't reach out to intolerance...you shun it.-landrew

            by mentaldebris on Sun Dec 21, 2008 at 09:27:36 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

        •  There are a lot of people.,,, (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Radical def

          outside the DC bubble who listen to drug-addled bloviating windbags like Limbaugh.

          CHRISTIAN, n. One who believes that the New Testament is a divinely inspired book admirably suited to the spiritual needs of his neighbor. A. Bierce

          by irate on Sun Dec 21, 2008 at 09:46:22 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

    •  It seems a strange time to me (10+ / 0-)

      The election is won, Bush the failure is on the way out, but the calendar gap is so freaking big until the transfer of power actually happens we're stuck in this terrible limbo.

      The Senate Democrats act precisely the same, as if nothing has changed.  It's eerie, there should be screaming urgency to produce different tactics and results, but they sleep-walk on.

      Obama has been strangely quiet on the auto bailout failure, Digby wrote the other day. Well, what the hell can he do?  Like all of us:  wait. Change is here, really, but not yet. When every day yawns as an eternity to get something done nothing is done but more failure.

      The media acts like nothing has changed, they slobber and jabber at foolishness while all tumbles down and our people die.  It's disorientating.  Disheartening.  Dismay on a daily fucking basis, man.

      [shrugs] Maybe when millions are in the streets DC will pay attention.  Maybe.

    •  Story on yahoo all day yesterday... (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      clammyc, BoiseBlue

      ...was that it is a problem for Rahm.

      Which is total BS. They didn't let that stop them.

      AP, I think.

      PALIN: I have a vast variety of sources where we get our news.

      by Big Nit Attack on Sun Dec 21, 2008 at 07:56:40 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  Sumbuddy go dig up Ronald Reagan. (3+ / 0-)
  •  I'm hoping Franken takes the Wellstone path (26+ / 0-)

    and calls out the bullshitters quick and often.

    Tues. a.m. on Motorized Bikes Diaries What does "one one, one two, one three" stand for?

    by bamabikeguy on Sun Dec 21, 2008 at 06:39:48 AM PST

  •  "Shame, mockery and dismissal." (18+ / 0-)

    Right on!!

    It's the only way to change the status quo.  And right now the status quo is for Democrats to give in to Republican demands and wishes, which is the staus quo that leads to the destruction of the Middle Class.

    And since we will never change the mind-set of a Republican, I fear the only way to change the status quo now is to get rid of those Democrats who don't understand that being a tool of the Republican party is unacceptable.

    It's not over just because we won an election.  We've much work to do before 2010 and 2012.

    Great diary, clammyc, keep it up.

    Obama/Biden, 2012!

    by WSComn on Sun Dec 21, 2008 at 06:41:31 AM PST

  •  Don't hold your breath waiting for the corporate (16+ / 0-)

    media.

    They're still wedded to the notion that you must provide equal time to discredited persons and their disastrous ideas and proposals in the name of journalistic "balance."

    So we'll continue to see this false equivalency manifest itself throughout the confirmation hearings, as people like David Gregory and Snufflupagus give credence and air time to the "views" of people who themselves have a record of supporting proven incompetents or worse.

    Don't hold your breath waiting for our Democratic senators to point this out either. That would be "uncivil."

    Sometimes I think Caligula was spot on when he appointed his horse as a Roman Senator.

    Who was Bush_Horror2004, anyway?

    by Dartagnan on Sun Dec 21, 2008 at 06:50:59 AM PST

    •  Caligula was a madman (8+ / 0-)

      and the fact that we, over 2,000 years later, still know his name and deeds just goes to show that placing a madman in a position of power over us is not only possible but likely.

      That was proved in 2004 when MSM sold the majority of us on reelecting Cheney/Bush.

      Hell, Ancient Rome at the height of it's decadence would have killed for control over a communications network as vast and as vapidly quick as our present one.  And their concerns for accuracy and truth in that communications network would have probably equaled our own, as well.

      Obama/Biden, 2012!

      by WSComn on Sun Dec 21, 2008 at 06:59:53 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Well I would argue that Caligula had the (9+ / 0-)

        reasonable excuse of being totally insane.

        Whilst Bush and Cheney have no such excuse for their malevolence.

        Who was Bush_Horror2004, anyway?

        by Dartagnan on Sun Dec 21, 2008 at 07:05:25 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Only because we know the dangers of drinking (4+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          greenearth, kurt, Dartagnan, Jacob Bartle

          acidic wine from lead lined goblets!

          Bush and Cheney's dreams for greed and their hunger for power came true, unfortunetly, at the expense of all Americans.  And like most afflected with such diseases, once they obtained their heart's desire they didn't have a clue on how to maintain it for the good of all.  They just took what they could grab and left the carcass of a country behind.
          It's as I've said for some time now, Republicans do not know how to hold power.  They should not be entrusted with it, ever.

          Obama/Biden, 2012!

          by WSComn on Sun Dec 21, 2008 at 12:26:44 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Caligula invaded... (4+ / 0-)

            ...no foreign nations and never debased Roman currency like Bush.  Incitatus' appointment to the senate sounds like a classic gag routine hatched on the Colbert Report.  The truly mad romans have to the guys who actually invaded and butchered foreigners, right?

            "It's a race to decide who the British goverment will follow blindly for the next 4 years" Kennedy/Kerry '08

            by Salo on Sun Dec 21, 2008 at 02:22:15 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

      •  Have to take issue with that (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        zett, greenearth

        America did not "elect" Bush/Cheney, and it is inappropriate, that is to say,  inaccurate,  to claim that Americans are so stupid that "we" were duped into doing so by commercial corporate mass media.

        Little more than half the eligible electorate registered, and nearly half of them did not cast a ballot.  

        The "mandate" for "victory" in that "election" was substantially less than 20% of the population that actually directly supported Bush/Cheney with a vote.

        And, there were all the dirty tricks of the Republicans, to suppress voter turnout, as well, making it arguable that they stole the "election" by hook and by crook.

        You can speculate all you want about why so many didn't vote, but polls show a vast majority of the population tend to support Democratic rhetoric and programs.

        The more who vote, the stronger the mandate for Democrats.

        My analysis is that a very sizable percentage of the non-voters were progressives and Democrats who simply did not see sufficient material difference between the parties, and did not want to be played for suckers, in an obviously contrived, bogus, corrupt, commercial bourgeois fraud.

        I'm not saying they were "right" to boycott...but they weren't altogether "wrong" in their reasons.

        We really need to change that perception, and mobilize those people, and that is going to take clear and material changes in the party, or, at the very least, clear signs that a real fight is going on, to make those changes.

        Also, I would point out that the same media were in place, doing the same things this time, with much different results...so, while their influence is substantial and deplorable, they do not completely rule the hearts and minds of America

        "...a printing press is worth 10,000 rifles..." Ho Chi Minh

        by Radical def on Sun Dec 21, 2008 at 01:00:46 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  I beg to differ. (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        greenearth

        Caligula conquered no foreigners--he was bookended by Tiberius and Claudius who were both conquerers. He made a joke about conquering Neptune and returned home with some sea shells. He almost sounds like a acid tripping hippy. He humourously appointed a horses arse to the Senate (nothing short of Colbertian brilliance), he pimped out the senate's wives and murdered various aristocrats who were ripping off ordinary Romans and Gauls. His death toll was in the hundreds and most of his victims were degenerate aristocratic criminals.

        Given that he grew up in the court of a mass muderering Roman general and later emperor and was succeeded by a man who cynically conquered the British isles with great slaughter, he looks positively tame.  His flaw was that he gave the Roman army no foreigners to butcher, so their Praetorian officers eventually butchered him.

        "It's a race to decide who the British goverment will follow blindly for the next 4 years" Kennedy/Kerry '08

        by Salo on Sun Dec 21, 2008 at 02:19:11 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

    •  oh, I won't (9+ / 0-)

      but as it gets more and more irrelevant (although there is still so much ground for it to lose and for the "alternative" media to gain), and as more newspapers go out of business, less of a megaphone for the talking meatsticks and the AP - the better it will (hopefully) get.

      It is a long and slow process to undo 40 years of right wing noise machine infrastructure and memes, but we have come a long way in the past 5 years.

      Center-right country, my ASS.

      by clammyc on Sun Dec 21, 2008 at 07:01:33 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  Molly Ivins says get them BACK in the news (6+ / 0-)

      gathering bidness, let US cipher and recipher the trends and meanings.

      Those that probe and expose will be rewarded, we should all be helping McLatchy and avoiding AP, if only there was a way to twist the Yahoos/Googles and HuffPo's to our bidding.

      Tues. a.m. on Motorized Bikes Diaries What does "one one, one two, one three" stand for?

      by bamabikeguy on Sun Dec 21, 2008 at 07:02:18 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  Sometimes one side speaks the truth (8+ / 0-)

      and providing equal time to falsehoods doesn't provide anything resembling balance.

      moderation in everything ... including moderation

      by C Barr on Sun Dec 21, 2008 at 07:23:04 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  I don't much like it when Rachel (6+ / 0-)

      or any other progr reporter or site cites absolute garbage from Politico/Pajamas, either. They should be marginalized, mocked.

      Kindly remove your 8-year-old turd from my punchbowl.

      by OleHippieChick on Sun Dec 21, 2008 at 07:39:49 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  Democrats eat their own (5+ / 0-)

    We like to tear down our own leaders when they aren't perfect. If they deviate in the slightest from progressive purity, we are quick to scream that we have been betrayed.

    We are our own worst enemies.

    A revolution without dancing is a revolution not worth having // Swords Crossed

    by quaoar on Sun Dec 21, 2008 at 06:59:58 AM PST

  •  Time to rub republican noses in that steaming... (14+ / 0-)

    stinking pile they left on our carpet.
    Biden on "This Weak" yapping about looking forward.
    We can not let bushco slide, this has to stop now!
    Bipartisan prosecution of bushco is the only thing that MUST happen to heal this country.

    St. Ronnie was an asshole.

    by manwithnoname on Sun Dec 21, 2008 at 07:01:30 AM PST

  •  Sorry, but the corporate ties the Clinton's (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    greenearth

    have, as do many democrats in Congress, is no less harmful than Republican corporate ties.

  •  Obama is not the only answer nor is it a (12+ / 0-)

    Democratic Congress nor is it a combination of both.

    Two things:

    1.  All those people who told us to get off our asses, turn off our computers and go work on campaigns need to come back and help fight the information battle.  The campaigns are over for a while but the war continues.
    1.  We won the war, this last one at least.  Now we must fight the occupation battles.  The internet is our tool and our weapon.

    Public education is the most visible and comprehensive government program; it is being dismantled and sold for parts.

    by algebrateacher on Sun Dec 21, 2008 at 07:18:01 AM PST

  •  The Republicans are just trying to teach... (8+ / 0-)

    the Democrats what an opposition party is suppose to do. I seem to remember this lesson being taught before.

    Now let's see if the Democrats ever gleaned anything from the Repug's lesson of what a majority party is suppose to do.

    Hey maybe some of the promises will get passed if they follow some of their examples. I mean Republicans suck but they sure know how to shove bad legislature down out throats. Republican tactics should work even better for good legislature.
     

  •  But clammy - they are the Party of Ideas (13+ / 0-)

    As explicitly detailed here.

    "Republicans have grown accustomed to having our party recognized as the `Party of Ideas,' but we must acknowledge that many Americans today believe the party is stale and does not deserve that label," reads one of the memo's starker assessments, adding that "we have not used our principles to provide solutions to the kitchen table concerns of middle-class America."

    That's RNC chief Mike Duncan, who then lays out a program of how the republicans have to do this and that to become viable again. And you just have to laugh because they all stood up to kill Detroit and the UAW, and the republican solution to education and healthcare problems is "private savings accounts."

    The republicans are going to be dead for a long, long time as long as their solution to everything is "give rich people more money, and the rest of you little people can go piss off!"

    You're so right - all of their arguments suck.

    Every day's another chance to stick it to The Man. - dls.

    by The Raven on Sun Dec 21, 2008 at 07:20:57 AM PST

  •  Calling Dr Moe, Dr Larry, Dr Curly (5+ / 0-)

    And let’s not forget Blago wasn’t even invited to the Dem convention.

    I absolutely agree clammy, that the failures of neocon philosophy generally and BushCo specifically have to be resolutely exposed and clearly articulated.  Where they went wrong, why they went wrong, but most importantly, that they are wrong. Allowing right wing gasbags to change the subject or kick up dust to obscure the debate will not help us achieve the change we need and voted for.

    Liberté, Egalité, Fraternité

    by snaglepuss on Sun Dec 21, 2008 at 07:29:17 AM PST

  •  We need to set priorities (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    alizard, greenearth, Radical def

    Creating a stable, fair plan to fix the economy would cover a lot of areas and should be the number one priority.

    It can't be fixed in one year, but a sensible plan can gradually get us there.

    Too much money was put into the future.  Retirement investments, pensions, Social Security, life insurance, even charity was supposed to come later from 'today's dollar'.  

    Pension and bank insurances were paid for, just in case.  

    Now, the future is here and it seems too many have taken from the investments ahead of time, by hook or crook.

    The underfunded pension insurance is almost used up. The unnecessary national debt/deficit hurts the future payouts.

    It is almost like it was a ponzi scheme deliberately created for the boomer generation. After all their years of paying in, now that it is time to take their benefits there are all kinds of reasons or schemes being used to not let them have what is due them.

    Maybe, those who created this mess should be the number one focus. Getting their hands off the wheel would help a lot.

  •  As always smart and to the point. (5+ / 0-)

    What registers in Las Vegas votes in Nevada.

    by JeffLieber on Sun Dec 21, 2008 at 07:38:06 AM PST

  •  NOT going to make the Progressive Happy (0+ / 0-)

    and those of you who demand it 100%? Start now screaming and moaning and pissing in the wind....try not to get wet..... because in case you truly were not paying attention...ALL through the campaign Obama said, time and time again for those of you with attention deficit disorder, he would be a President for ALL Americans. That means that he will make decisions that will make the Left, Center and Right happy at differing times....but not everyone at the same time. Now you want to scy foul? The only thing I smell foul is the stupidity that is rising off of those who failed to pay attention.

    Obama will be a Great leader and more because when those of you arm chair politicans try to take him to task for not leading how YOU think he should? He will ignore you.

    •  um, ok (22+ / 0-)

      now that you finished scolding whoever for something that is not the point of this diary, do you feel better?

      Center-right country, my ASS.

      by clammyc on Sun Dec 21, 2008 at 07:41:44 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Your wrong but (0+ / 0-)

        hey good luck with that attempt.

        •  No, I think he's pretty much dead on n/t (4+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          LynneK, James Kresnik, BoiseBlue, Johnny Q
        •  how am I wrong? (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Johnny Q

          specifically.

          Center-right country, my ASS.

          by clammyc on Sun Dec 21, 2008 at 08:44:03 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  I think it doesn't go much past: "he sez so" (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            James Kresnik, Radical def, Johnny Q

            or: "Obama good, critics bad, make all people happy sometime good, left right center all happy sometime next 8 years good".

            I think it amounts to a very aggressive call for appeasment or rule by committee.

            The direction of our country has been flat out wrong since ... FDR died.  Any good since then has been tempered with balance or some lame compromise with evil.  The Great Society was  sabotaged at the start and dismantled since any way, but the scares of Vietnam still effect our politics every single day.  That is just one example.  Hell, Vietnam goes back to a bad decision by Truman.  

            We have major global catastrophies to fix, and nearly half our country isn't all that interested in fixing them.  Do we want them fixed and let the troglodytes bitch and moan about the earth not being destroyed and poor people being able to eat and have homes?  Or do we want half measures doomed to fail to keep evil appeased?

            Excellent Diary!

            My political compass: Economic: -7.38 Social: -5.79

            by musicalhair on Sun Dec 21, 2008 at 09:00:33 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

    •  I didn't realize that you were a part of (5+ / 0-)

      Obama's inner circle.

      Had he ignored the progressives during the election, he would have lost.

      If he moves the country left (back to the center) he will win re-election with progressive support.

      If he doesn't affect real change, he may win re-election as Republican-lite but the country will get more of the same.

      Excess ain't rebellion. You're drinking what they're selling. - Cake

      by slatsg on Sun Dec 21, 2008 at 07:50:29 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  No one says... (10+ / 0-)

      ...he's not going to be president for "all Americans".  That's not the point.

      The point is that wingnuts are once again starting in with attempts to hamstring a Democratic administration.  The point is that they are looking to bring Obama down.

      That's what they do.  It's not about Obama being or not being the most progressive president ever.

      Today's conservatives are radicals, and they're radicals with power.  Things are not going to be peachy just because we want them to be.

      And you know what?  For those of us who actually paid attention during the campaign, Obama was anything but willing to take a punch with no response.  He is not a Ghandi, and he is not unwilling to defend himself.

      The bottom line is this:  Wingnuts want power, and yes, they're the bad guys.  They have a vision for America, undimmed by their failures over the last eight years, that is radically at odds with what most of us want, and is demonstrably unhealthy for our society and our country.  Obama's their president, too, and he wants to enact policies (yes, some of them very progressive) that will help most of them as well, even though they don't want what he wants to do.

      Wingnuts have to be opposed, if we want to avoid a repeat of the 90's.

      •  good points ... (6+ / 0-)

        I'd like to add to them that there is a difference between being a "president for all Americans" by doing what they (all) want (an impossiblity) and by doing what is needed by all.  

        Even the wealthiest need the poorest and most desperate to be well fed and educated and housed, or they run the risk of being mugged when they walk outside.  The wealthiest may not recognize how that public good serves them too, but we shouldn't let such shortsightedness deter us.  

        My political compass: Economic: -7.38 Social: -5.79

        by musicalhair on Sun Dec 21, 2008 at 09:06:53 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

    •  So for example, if he never actually makes... (0+ / 0-)

      ...one particular individual happy he's not everyone's president.  He's already pissed off a fairly vocal group--who are seeking out their just civil rights.

      It really doesn't look like a good start.

      "It's a race to decide who the British goverment will follow blindly for the next 4 years" Kennedy/Kerry '08

      by Salo on Sun Dec 21, 2008 at 02:02:58 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  I knew Obama would do this, because he's (0+ / 0-)

      centrist. I never was under the impression he was a progressive or even a liberal. He turns a nice phrase, and is capable of rousing a crowd.

      You now, Jack Kennedy never would have had a Rick Warren figure at his inauguration. Neither would have Bobby.

      Jimmy Carter didn't. Even Bill Clinton didn't.

      I think progressives and liberals have been deluded, all along into thinking we'd get 'our candidate' into office.

      Does that make Barack Obama a 'bad man'? No.

      And I feel confident he will make decisions based upon science and truth, more so than upon corporatist concerns. I feel confident he will act in favor of the working class, not out of ideology, but because it's the right thing to do for the country.

      I'm further to the left than almost anyone here, so for me to see your bullshit argument about 'changing politics', well it makes me laugh my ass off. Obama is not going to change politics. He's already playing politics with his own inauguration.

      You are even more blind than the 'progressives' you are bitching and moaning about here.

      2008, the Year the Republican Party dissolved into a little pond of goo

      by shpilk on Sun Dec 21, 2008 at 02:25:03 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  Progressives are watching very closely to (10+ / 0-)

    see how our democrats perform when they have no more excuses.

    •  Yes they are...and many held back, did not vote (4+ / 0-)

      Or voted for McKinney, or others, "on principle"  (which I will forgive, this time, since Obama clearly had a lock on it, heh, but not the last time, when it handed the "election" to Bush by default)

      100 million people did not vote this time...some may be too stupid, apathetic, or satisfied with the status quo to bother, no doubt...or even potential Republican voters, demoralized into staying home..

      But polling shows that a vast majority hold views sympathetic to the rhetoric and programs of the Democrats...the more who vote, the more the results favor the Democrats.

      And among those who did not vote this time were many many progressives who just can't bear to be taken for a sucker, again.

      Obama needs to step up boldly, and give them good reason to join us in kicking some Republican (and Blue Dog) ass, for real...He has to say it, and call for it, and lead the way in that.

      And so do we...the grassroots are where we need to go, to move the more conservative district constituencies to the left, to force their Blue Dog and Republican representatives to either move to the left, or else be replaced by more progressive challengers, by popular demand.

      Progressives have the networks and the organizing skills it will take, to do that, if we can just get more of them to actually get on the bus, and stop holding back.

      "...a printing press is worth 10,000 rifles..." Ho Chi Minh

      by Radical def on Sun Dec 21, 2008 at 12:41:10 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  Right on. (18+ / 0-)

    All this bipartisanship stuff sounds like a really sweet idea and all, but why does it have to mean we give any credibility to losers who were wrong about absolutely everything?

    They're the minority now.  Let them try to get along with us.

    After all, elections have consequences, and the Democrats have political capital to spend.

    Hope you enjoyed it, Sarah, 'cause we just kicked your silly winking folksy lipsticked ass back to Alaska. Now shut the fuck up and stay there. Also.

    by Kaili Joy Gray on Sun Dec 21, 2008 at 07:40:28 AM PST

  •  Add another one this morning (13+ / 0-)

    George Will suddenly rediscovers the evils of big government and the virtue of rule of law.

    In his column this morning, Will decries Bush's "ignoring Congress" in routing some of the TARP money to the big 3 auto manufacturers, using the opportunity to bash FDR's supposed lawlessness.

    Toward the end, he seems to sense his and his fellow conservatives' blatant hypocrisy in letting Bush's overt lawlessness and big-government spending go unchecked over the last eight years, and claims sheepishly that at least in national security, the President's right to ignore the law and the will of Congress is "arguable".

    Anything is "arguable", of course, but whether one can make a rational and solid argument is another matter, and I notice Will doesn't even try.

    The moral of the story is that if Will is any guide, conservatives may try to use the bailout of the auto manufacturers as a pivot point to really start in earnest with the bashing of Obama's FDR-like economic plans, rediscover the traditional conservative rationales for opposing anything they don't like and rewrite the Bush years as not a failure of conservative principles but an abandonment of them.

  •  We can fight them. (4+ / 0-)

    Or we can fight each other.

    The point I've been trying to make is that unless we fight them and join to erase the las eight+ years, then more people out here will die.  

    Sitting on our high hills/heels and fussing at each other is just putting more people out of jobs, out on the street and without medical care.

    The clock is ticking.

    You gave Obama a To Do List. What is your To DO List?

    by redtex on Sun Dec 21, 2008 at 07:43:14 AM PST

  •  Here's the thing about doing the Ghandi... (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    greenearth, fisheye, LynneK

    you either do it or you don't.

    It takes 2 parties (or more) to get along peacefully, it only takes 1 to make war.

    I am not making any judgment about whether peace or war is the right metaphor.  I'm just saying, peace may actually take more commitment.  Ghandi showed that you must be willing to expose your antagonist's brutality.

    The outcome is never certain, no matter which road you choose.  It sure feels better to throw a punch than to take one, at least in that moment.  

    It's too bad the school of hard knocks gives you the final exam before the first class

    by Imavehmontah on Sun Dec 21, 2008 at 07:46:04 AM PST

    •  tell me how well all that went (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      alizard, greenearth, Johnny Q

      over the past 8 years.

      Center-right country, my ASS.

      by clammyc on Sun Dec 21, 2008 at 09:21:44 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  You said it yourself in your diary (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        greenearth

        the republican party blowhards should probably just keep their mouths shut – especially in light of the overwhelming ass kicking that Obama and the Democrats just gave them, the absolute rejection of their lies and corruption and philosophy and the favorability ratings of Obama and his picks so far

        I feel this will be the result in exposing Warren too. When vulnerabilities opened by throwing punches aren't filled, they're left on display.

        Moving on, finally.

        by fisheye on Sun Dec 21, 2008 at 11:21:13 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  What we witnessed the past 8 years (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        James Kresnik

        is a lot of complicity, confusion, and leaderless ineffectuality.  That is not a good example of what could be accomplished with a different kind of resistance to tyranny.  

        It also should not be seen as being the only alternative to further diviseveness and polarization.

        Maybe asking the Israelis and Arabs about the long term benefits of polarization would be more instructive?  Tell me how well all that went for the past XXXX years?

        It's too bad the school of hard knocks gives you the final exam before the first class

        by Imavehmontah on Sun Dec 21, 2008 at 12:17:44 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Gandhi was the genteel front man... (0+ / 0-)

          ...for real Indian nationalists like General Bose.  A Man who didn't shrink from taking to the British.

          "It's a race to decide who the British goverment will follow blindly for the next 4 years" Kennedy/Kerry '08

          by Salo on Sun Dec 21, 2008 at 02:08:39 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  MLK :: Malcolm X (0+ / 0-)

            However, MLK would have never continence injustice and oppression with inaction, complicity and prostrating before power. It was quite the opposite, actually. Moreover, Ghandi did not tolerate injustice with prostration and inaction.

            Confrontation, non-violent confrontation, is  core principle of Non-Violent Resistance.

            Therefore, Imavehmontah's assertion, is on it's face, highly questionable.

            They don't pay me enough to save, and they don't pay me enough to spend. So let 'em bail their own asses out and stop blaming me. -Joy Busey

            by James Kresnik on Sun Dec 21, 2008 at 06:52:24 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

  •  This is exacty why we should keep the pitchforks (9+ / 0-)

    out and waving.

    They aren't going to stop. (Apologies to Will Smith in "I am Legend.)

    We need to take it to them. We need to have more people with us in the next election.

    We cannot allow these folks to steal back any portion of what we have won.

    We need to hit back and them hard and we need to do it constantly.

    They desire to be bipartisan like a snake desires to be bipartisan with a mouse. It is our turn to be the snake.

    PALIN: I have a vast variety of sources where we get our news.

    by Big Nit Attack on Sun Dec 21, 2008 at 07:49:26 AM PST

    •  heh...we don't want to be snakey, do we? (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      James Kresnik

      But I agree, we do need to take it to them, instead of just trying to parry their thrusts.

      100 million eligible people did not vote this time...that is an awesome resource, waiting to be tapped, of which a very substantial portion are deliberately boycotting out of disgust over the lack of substance or differences.

      If a significant portion of that 100 million can be mobilized to join the fight, we can give the Republicans and the Blue Dogs the bums rush, from the "top" to the "bottom".

      "...a printing press is worth 10,000 rifles..." Ho Chi Minh

      by Radical def on Sun Dec 21, 2008 at 12:24:28 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  Everyone, just turn off (9+ / 0-)

    the damn television. Think for yourselves. Stop buying into the bullshit and feeding these concern trolls.

    It is unbelievable to me every time I see this nonsense where people buy into bullshit and throw away people who have worked to earn their integrity and credibility.

    Why? Because it's juicy.

    Concern trolls feed on juicy gossip, juicy scandal. And instead of it making them sick, it makes me wretch.

    I love too, the people who think Bush and Cheney and the rest of the criminals have half a conscience - like they will drive the country into the sewer, but when it comes to anything worse (like stooping to murdering a potential witness against them) they stop themselves - because somewhere deep down in there is a conscience and "they would NEVER do that."

    If Bush and Cheney had a conscience, we would never be where we are right now. PERIOD.

    No one has half of a concience. Either they do or they don't, and once I see a sign of no conscience in someone, I know they are simply a perverted predator preying on their own kind and I get the hell away from them.

    I don't wait around to see what it takes for their conscience to kick in.

    That's the hypocrisy that kills me, yea, Bush and Cheney wouldn't stoop 'that low.' Yea folks, they will, if they haven't already.

    It's called Omnipotence. Normal rules of humanity don't apply to them.

    Do you need any more evidence of that?

    If you sit by the river long enough, your enemies float by. -ancient Chinese secret

    by the girl on Sun Dec 21, 2008 at 07:50:55 AM PST

    •  Need info...rather than Kill your TV, improve it! (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      the girl

      Fairness Doctrine would help...and more substantial subsidies, and channels, for public TV, alternatives.  

      There should be strict limits against media monopolies, and even big corporate ownership, for sure.

      Independent media should be encouraged, and corporate propaganda clearly identified and stigmatized as such, with strict requirements that they tell the truth, and the whole story, or else get off the air.

      I'd like to see Faux "News" and some hate radio completely shut down.

      Let the right scream bloody murder over "censorship" of their "right" to lie their ass off, sow sedition and hatred, even call for assassination...take away their voice, and nobody will listen, or get suckered into believing their shit, heh...and nobody with a brain will miss them.

      And if that seems too drastic and slippery a slope, then we need to at least put a lot better and more alternative perspectives out there, so people have a real choice, and not merely the "choice" between which corporate hack they are going to be "informed" by.

      Either way, no way should any media be allowed to just lie their ass off, spew hate speech, or call for outright sedition and treason...

      There Must be Some standards, Some method of rationally, reasonably, democratically holding media accountable, to a far greater extent.

      "...a printing press is worth 10,000 rifles..." Ho Chi Minh

      by Radical def on Sun Dec 21, 2008 at 12:18:20 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Wish that could happen (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        James Kresnik

        but I doubt it will happen soon.

        Television journalism is the low of the low, quick soundbites filtered through an anchor desk of pretty people.

        That's what it is and that's all it is. It is designed to inflame, to feed on sensational stories, not real journalism.

        Except for KO and Rachel, I don't see much there worth tuning in for, and for now, tuning out is my favorite option.

        Unfortunately, lazy voters like lazy journalists. No one ever then, has to look over at the elephants in their living rooms.

        Ignorance is truly bliss. That sucks.

        If you sit by the river long enough, your enemies float by. -ancient Chinese secret

        by the girl on Sun Dec 21, 2008 at 01:15:07 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Kill Your Cable (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          the girl

          Your cable bill goes directly to the pockets of those scumbags. And don't fool yourself, they own the entire cable dial, lock, stock and barrel. Keep the internet at the slowest speed you can use and drop everything else.

          They don't pay me enough to save, and they don't pay me enough to spend. So let 'em bail their own asses out and stop blaming me. -Joy Busey

          by James Kresnik on Sun Dec 21, 2008 at 06:55:54 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

  •  day by day, the old media is dying (7+ / 0-)

    and they only have themselves to blame. If you spew nonsense, then people stop listening and eventually you have no audience.

  •  I can always count on clammyc to (6+ / 0-)

    to raise the bar on the bs level. Well done.

  •  I figure sooner or later Obama is going (7+ / 0-)

    to realize that hand he's reaching across the aisle is going to be firmly grasped for the sole purpose of keeping him still so the rest of the right can plunge the knives in.  

    What he does with that experience will be telling.  Personally, I hope he takes what Will Rogers said about diplomacy and applies it to bi-partisanship:

    "Diplomacy is the art of saying "Nice doggie" until you can find a rock."

    Otherwise, we are truly fucked.

    You don't reach out to intolerance...you shun it.-landrew

    by mentaldebris on Sun Dec 21, 2008 at 08:01:42 AM PST

  •  There's less linkage between Obama and Blago... (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    musicalhair, clammyc

    ...than there was between Saddam and 9/11 - look for the same folks to pushing it!

  •  I hate whiny assclowns n/t (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    clammyc

    die welt ist shizer

    by Unbozo on Sun Dec 21, 2008 at 08:05:05 AM PST

  •  That punk Kantor is currently on Blitzer. (0+ / 0-)
  •  No Opposition Arguments Sucks (7+ / 0-)

    Your arguments against Republican credibility don't suck. They are all correct. Republicans who failed to apply a legit standard to Republicans, letting them create the vast wasteland of catastrophes that is America's world today, have zero credibility in conflicting with anyone according to that "standard".

    But what really sucks is that we are therefore left with no opposition party. Sure, one reason I prefer Democrats to Republicans is that Democrats are indeed usually more divided against each other, rather than a lockstep juggernaut government inflicting its power on me and the world. But today's Democrats are unusually unified, which is not only good for the people's business, but also good for all the incompetence, corruption and misguided work that Democrats also do.

    Perhaps the greatest damage Republicans have done is to deprive America of an opposition that can check and balance the Democratic trifecta power monopoly.

    Which specifically undercuts some of your arguments. Just because Halliburton and Carlyle (and Cerberus Capital, getting bailed out of its 80% Chrysler ownership, and others) are paragons of interest conflicts, that doesn't mean that Bill Clinton's huge donations from foreign governments aren't a conflict with Hillary Clinton's interests as a freehanded Secretary of State. Just because Gonzales got away with torture doesn't mean Holder should get away with even much lesser corruption. Just because Bush rigged intel to invade Iraq doesn't mean Obama should get to do it with a new guy (or keep an old guy who did it for Bush). Just because Abramoff was the rock on which Bush built his church, doesn't mean Obama should get one, too.

    Now, I'm not saying that the Clintons will necessarily have interest conflicts, or that Holder served them corruptly, or that Obama is trying to get riggable intel chiefs or is in any way corrupt. I'm not. What I'm saying is that our system relies on adversarial public questions to find out whether those possibilities are true, before we allow them the vast power of a Federal government controlled by a single party with the largest majorities in several generations, amidst the hugest shock demanding government intervention everywhere, among the highest presidential approval rating excepting an active violent attack on our physical territory.

    We don't have that adversarial opposition to fill our adversarial system, because Republicans have destroyed their standing to oppose with anything but the most cynical politics.

    So yes, let's force Republicans to shut the fuck up. The sooner they either somehow reform on a platform of credibility (unlikely) or get out of the way for a new opposition party, the better - at nearly the most fundamental level of our political system.

    But even more important is to forge a new political system closer to the way ours was supposed to work: of, by and for the people. Force interaction with Obama and the Congress. Many more and much larger grassroots campaigns presenting petitions pointing at alternate solutions. Primary campaigns as a matter of course, not exception, to undermine incumbentism. The center of media coverage of politics distributed all around the Web, fully interactive with public discussions in setting the agenda, values and priorities. More lawsuits by small-donation foundations that convict and remedy insider corruption, rewrite rules to keep it clean.

    It's not enough to just shut down the enemy when its arguments suck the life out of democracy. Success in that campaign makes it essential to raise up new adversaries whose vested interests represent viable alternatives, even if people cleave to one or the other out of their own interests. Remapping the adversity from arbitrary private political clubs into actual conflicting agendas balanced between large groups of stakeholders in their own actual self interest is what America was founded on (and the point of President Washington's famous warning about devolving into political parties). Republican collapse has presented us with an epochal opportunity, as usual shrouded in an epochal crisis. If we blow it, we will simply follow them down. And, unobstructed except by the hollow Republican Party, we will follow them much faster. And probably without hope of escape.

    Let's do it differently from them. Let's embrace adversity and make us all stronger for it. Right away, rather than merely gloat at the exhaustion of our necessary enemy.

    "When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro." - HST

    by DocGonzo on Sun Dec 21, 2008 at 08:07:40 AM PST

    •  I agree, with a caveat (5+ / 0-)

      if the opposition is willfully unproductive for the purpose of being obstructive and not to seek compromise on an important issue, then we are starting with no hope of accomplishing anything.

      Center-right country, my ASS.

      by clammyc on Sun Dec 21, 2008 at 09:24:09 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  right? difference of loyal opposition vs sabotage (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        alizard, SciVo

        Seems to me we have plenty of "opposition" already, within the Democratic Party, with the recent insurgence of Blue Dogs, "swing voters" and "undecideds", who can't seem to make up their mind where their principles part way with blatant opportunism.

        I think we need more solidarity, and less "opposition", especially of the disloyal sabotage kind, especially of the internal kind.

        We need to let it sink in, internalize the fact, and broadcast it, that the Republicans, their "analysis" and their methods are irrelevant, and no longer "politically correct" in this country, for real, and quit obsessing about them so much.

        We certainly don't "need" their kind of "opposition", which has amounted more to treason, in seeking profit over and above, and against the public interest

        However it's true, that If the super-majority Democrats remain primarily a Blue Dog contrivance, then DocGonzo's fear of ultimate corruption will indeed be realized.

        The solutions posed are also absolutely correct...grassroots pressure, actual real democracy, swift and sure accountability, all up and down the ladders of power, are the only protections.  

        Time for the Better Democrats to step up.

        "...a printing press is worth 10,000 rifles..." Ho Chi Minh

        by Radical def on Sun Dec 21, 2008 at 11:57:50 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

  •  And while we're... (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Dave925, Fabian, greenearth, soundchaser

    ranting about inaccurate arguments can we please stop with the Detroit makes shitty cars one?

    Seriously, the cars made here are pretty damn good according to JD Powers rankings. I hate it when I see people like Kos and others here repeating the lies of the Republicans word for word about U.S. made cars and trucks.

    And its complete and utter BS that they have been losing money hand over fist for decades, heck in 2006, just two years ago GM had a record year...

    What we do for ourselves dies with us, what we do for others and the world remains and is immortal. (Albert Pine)

    by laughingriver on Sun Dec 21, 2008 at 08:11:44 AM PST

    •  The do make pretty good cars (5+ / 0-)

      they just make the wrong ones.
      back in the early 70's, American cars were becoming behemoths - hug, tank-like sedans. And they weren't even good looking. Any small cars they made, like the Pinto, really sucked. japan came in with smaller, fuel-efficient, cute cars and took the market.
      Same thing is happening now. We have some really good looking cars, but, seriously, who needs a Hummer? Who needs a navigator?
      Meanwhile, Asian cars come in with more cost-effective cars that Americans want. We're not all made of money.
      I'd love to see Detroit go back to being innovative. Go back to creating the best cars they can - kick the rest of the world's butts.
      How about bringing back the classic cars of long ago - only as hybrids? Would anyone else out there like one styled like the original Mustang, but only as hybrid?
      American has lost its innovative spirit in place of satisfying stockholders. Consultants run things, MBAs (there's a useless person if there ever was one) run things. The artist, engineers and others who know how to do things are marginalized in favor of the bean counters.
      We can do better. Yes we can.

      Electing conservatives is like hiring a carpenter who thinks hammers are evil.

      by MA Liberal on Sun Dec 21, 2008 at 09:21:33 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  I don't disagree with that... (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        MA Liberal

        However they largely make what the American public wants and administration policy dictates when it comes to energy.

        I'd love for them to make some classic replicas as hybrids, that would be really really cool...

        What we do for ourselves dies with us, what we do for others and the world remains and is immortal. (Albert Pine)

        by laughingriver on Sun Dec 21, 2008 at 10:05:04 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  Mini is closing down for 2 months (0+ / 0-)

        stlyish economy car.  BMW made.   It's not about the specific car corporations.  It's the real estate melt down.

        "It's a race to decide who the British goverment will follow blindly for the next 4 years" Kennedy/Kerry '08

        by Salo on Sun Dec 21, 2008 at 02:06:20 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

  •  Republicans never... (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    greenearth

    ...play by the rules, and are always changing them to suit themnselves, being the dishonest, hypocritical demagogues, whores and prostitutes for the filthy rich elites that they are.

    They don't care if their arguments make no sense. They just want to score political points.

    They don't care how badly they and their policies destroy this country. They just want to score political points.

    They don't care about reason, the rule of law or common sense, despite that they are constantly citing those as their values. They just want to score political points.

    So...your point is well-taken. Instead of giving in to these amoral thugs and Grand Old Prostitutes, the progressives of this country need to start fighting their stupid arguments with the best weapon we have...truth and reason.

    When progressives stop cowering to the childlike games of name-calling, demaguery and hatred of the Republican'ts...may be the day that they start unraveling as a viable political party.

  •  Clammy! (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Dave925, clammyc

    You've reintroduced the big questions.  Now, what are we going to do about it?  What good are rights when you live in a country that hoodwinks its people at every juncture and gets away with it.

    If Bush and his buddies get away with this, how can America ever begin to live up to its potential?

    A+++.

  •  I agree, BUT.... (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    clammyc, Radical def, DParker

    I agree that the ridiculous, false and 100% politically motivated arguments and objections that the Republicans are already throwing up need to be smacked down.

    But our response should always include that it was their kind of partisan, party-first politics, the politics they continue to practice, that landed us in the colossal mess that the Obama administration is inheriting.  

    On the Republican watch, a big NOTHING was done to address the impending economic disaster; NOTHING was done to address what is probably our most serious challenge, the climate threat.  NOTHING was done to repair our standing in the world.  NOTHING was done to find solutions.

    Any response to Republican whining should include this closer:  it's time for Republicans to grow up.  Grow up and stop this partisan game-playing; there are real problems to address, very serious problems.  Grow up and become part of the solution instead of continuing to be part of the problem.

    "The other folks are voting!" Rep. Chambliss (R-GA)

    by keeplaughing on Sun Dec 21, 2008 at 08:32:08 AM PST

  •  my problem with Holder (0+ / 0-)

    is that he hasn't played by the rules before, and those rules are written.
    Marc Rich - didn't get required input from pardon unit in DoJ
    Banana company - ignored rules about paying money to terrorist groups

    There's another one, but I forget what it was...

    This is not what I want to see in the AG, especially not after eight years of Bush's guys.

  •  uh-uh. I have GREAT arguments (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    clammyc

    Everyone with whom I have had a GREAT argument, please raise your hand. :)

  •  Shame, Mockery and Dismissal. That should (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    ebbinflo, clammyc, Johnny Q

    be our policy toward the GOP for the next four years.

    Once in a while you get shown the light in the strangest of places if you look at it right.

    by darthstar on Sun Dec 21, 2008 at 08:34:14 AM PST

  •  Blago is a non-starter (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    clammyc

    Next week Obama will put an end to all reasonable speculation.  Of course, the right wing is not reasonable so they will continue to manufacture crap just as they did with Obama is a muslim, Obama is not a citizen. etc...  There's nothing we can do about it except smack them down if they come in here.

    Still waiting for real change

    by noofsh on Sun Dec 21, 2008 at 08:38:28 AM PST

  •  Most excellent! (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    clammyc

    Who could have thought it possible that the Right could be so wrong for so long.

    But it's true, and it's not so easy to protest that it's not.

    Not anymore.

    WereBear
    Pootie fan? Me too! Check out my cat advice blog.
    The Way of Cats

    by WereBear on Sun Dec 21, 2008 at 08:39:57 AM PST

  •  You can't get along with crooks. (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Dave925, clammyc, CIndyCasella

    There is a certain acking i have, i guess it's a symtom of being pissed off at congress, for their lack of spine. If they did their jobs and investigate, we wouldn't have to hear all this republican crap. We'd be hearing confessions in order to save their asses. The republican complaints and whining, is similar to a child molester complaining about the child's grades.  

  •  AG Holder deserves a clean confirmation (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    clammyc

    Obama deserves it as President by virtue of winning.

    Republicans should give it for giving us Gonzalez and Mukasey.

    "It stinks." - Jay Sherman

    by angry liberaltarian on Sun Dec 21, 2008 at 08:43:23 AM PST

  •  Stay focused on more and BETTER democrats. n/t (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Dave925, clammyc, Radical def, Johnny Q

    Picture a bright blue ball just spinnin' spinnin' free. It's dizzy with possibility.

    by lockewasright on Sun Dec 21, 2008 at 08:44:06 AM PST

  •  amen... (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    clammyc, CIndyCasella

    its just the vacuum of power and real news...that the wignut echo chamber is kicking into high gear...Jan 20th cant come soon enough...itll probably take a full term to fix the pile of poop that obama is inherting but he looks like he's ready to act....

    Leave the gun take the cannoli..

    by Wallst Democrat on Sun Dec 21, 2008 at 08:57:26 AM PST

  •  The way to bring Republicans to the table... (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    superHappyInDC

    is to make them beg for consensus.  Until they must beg, they, with a few exceptions, are not ready to engage in a process that benefits all.

  •  HA! So there! (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    clammyc

    Fantastic as always Clammyc!

    "There are some things I don't understand. I don't understand how we ended up invading a country that had nothing to do with 9/11." - Next POTUS Obama

    by Cleopatra on Sun Dec 21, 2008 at 08:59:55 AM PST

  •  Great diary. I recommend. (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    CIndyCasella, notrouble

    I really hate to be so picky, but does this correction need to be made?

    There is no argument that "the intelligence was flawed" unless as long as we are talking about Bush’s own intelligence.

    "A pentagram, and reindeer laughing. You figure it out." -Tom Servo

    by jorogo on Sun Dec 21, 2008 at 09:14:08 AM PST

  •  Prioritizing and the Echo Chamber (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Dave925

    Not only do we have the responsibility to move our elected officials more towards the progressive policies this country needs and voted for (not the "center right" crap being pushed), but also to shut the whiny assclowns on the right up and put them in their place.

    while I share cc's frustration about the usual propaganda/lies put forward by corporate lackeys in the MSM and elsewhere, I don't think much effort should be put forth to "shut them up and put them in their place".

    NOBODY (except us, apparently) are swayed by them and in addition, the election already proved the voters are not swayed.

    62 percent of the eligible voters voted in this election. that's the best turnout in 40 years. what does this mean for the democratic party?

    it means it's time for congressional democrats to move their asses on crucial legislation. patience is thin and we're out of time here-- mainly because congress has so horribly and profoundly failed us over the last twenty some years.

    IMHO, we need to prioritize thus: ninety nine percent of our time should be spent putting pressure on congressional democrats to do what needs to be done-- one percent of our time dealing with the misinformation/propaganda put out by the cretinous MSM.

    "People and governments need the courage to do the right thing". Alexandr Solzhenitsyn

    by Superpole on Sun Dec 21, 2008 at 09:22:39 AM PST

  •  Obama needs to throw some steak to the GOP (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Dave925, ggwoman55, notrouble

    and appoint some kind of 60's era protester with a sordid past. Something big and obvious for them to get really upset about. Let the nomination fail in congress and make the GOP feel like they've accomplished something.

    I've done this with clients. I've deliberately shown them something really awfull so that they can feel good about disagreeing with something. It gives them the illusion of control and that their opinions are actually affecting the process.

    I think its an old car salesmen trick as well.

    •  right? Bill Ayers for Education! but wait... (0+ / 0-)

      Actually, it would be better if he won the position, and the Republicans were forced to face the fact that they are no longer "politically correct" in this country, and that they are the ones who should learn to "love it, or leave it"...

      It seems we already have quite enough "old car salesmen" in Congress as it is...

      I see no reason to continue to feed Republican illusions...what they really need is a wake up call, to convince them that the country is moving to the left, whether they like it, or want it to be so, or not...and that they will either have to get on the bus, or get left by the side of the road.

      And I don't mean letting the camel stick it's nose into the "big tent", lol.

      Ultimately, the "more" Democrats phase is OVER now, as far as I'm concerned.

      We don't need any more "swing voters" and "undecideds" at this point, who are too confused or unprincipled to make up their minds, nor do we need any more opportunist poseurs, seeking to try to push the Democrats to the right.

      What we need is Better Democrats, ie: more progressive Democrats, to absolutely crush the Republican (and Blue Dog) subversion of democracy in this country.

      And that will require all-out grassroots organizing, to mobilize a substantial portion of those 100 million who did not vote this time, because they are still holding back, primarily due to a perceived lack of substantial and significant enough difference between the parties.

      Some really bold actions from Obama would really help with that, a lot more than going too far with the conciliatory "bipartisanship", and trying to further encourage the Republicans in thinking that they can still weasel and manipulate, subvert and sabotage, rip off and ruin our nation, and make a profit off it.

      "...a printing press is worth 10,000 rifles..." Ho Chi Minh

      by Radical def on Sun Dec 21, 2008 at 11:37:48 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  Whoo hoo! This diary is One For The Ages n/t (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    clammyc
  •  I just watched Dick Cheney parse his words with (5+ / 0-)

    an impish twinkle in his eye and a wry smile about whether he supported diplomatic efforts to prevent Iran from obtaining nuclear weapons or whether he would have gone to war with Iran. What a sociopathic monster.

    This is just to say Forgive us victory tastes delicious so sweet and so cold

    by Dave the Wave on Sun Dec 21, 2008 at 10:00:30 AM PST

  •  you forgot the gnu & improved (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Panda, clammyc

    Ill'askan version of FAMILY VALUES.

    a) Bristol's with family, so they got that going for them.
    b) Bristol's gonna get married, so they got that going for them.
    c) Bristol's mommy in law is a self-made career woman, so Sarah can proudly claim the Ill'askan way is the best way.
    d) Bristol's mommy kept most of her clothing, so she can use it in her 2012 run.
    e) Bristol's mommy approves of Bristol's taste in folks. but considering that the #1 employment industry in Wassilly, AK is the manufacture and sale of Crystal Meth, you really have to wonder why Sarah named her Bristol and not Crystal.

    What we call god is merely a living creature with superior technology & understanding. If their fragile egos demand prayer, they lose that superiority.

    by agnostic on Sun Dec 21, 2008 at 10:28:25 AM PST

    •  you can stop wondering (0+ / 0-)

      If she'd been named "Crystal", a great many people would suddenly make the connection between that name and Palin's constant manic energy state, that fixed smile, and that glassy stare.

      Whether an accurate one or not, I can't say... but IIRC, 40 meth labs were busted in Wasilla in a recent year... which implies that 400 weren't... in a town of 10000, this suggests at least one bathtub meth facility per block and possibly a lot more than that, I don't know that town's layout to be able to say this with certainty.

      And most of the people making that connection would be in the middle of her own support base. Meth use is endemic among lower income whites in quite a few parts of America. However, I think users knowing that a VPOTUS candidate was "one of them" in that sense of the word would consider that reason to vote against her.

      In the face of this, Sarah's minister and Rick Warren and the rest of the "Third Wave" religious extremist movement in America probably could not have kept Sarah Palin's voters in line and probably would have been among the first to publicly condemn her.

      Looking for intelligent energy policy alternatives? Try here.

      by alizard on Sun Dec 21, 2008 at 03:34:51 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  How do we become as efficient (0+ / 0-)

    as the Republican spin machine, without becoming the thing we hate? I don't want to be just like them, and not include or listen to anyone that thinks differently. How do we change the dialogue from pushback to construction, when there is still so much pushing back that needs to be done? How do we find a way to allow them to talk all they want but be impotent in their message like we were for 8 years? We've shown that we can be an effective machine to get Obama elected. We need to "retool" our machine and refine our own marketing.

    That seems like a big enough challenge, but now how do we hold accountable the asshats on the other side without being "mean-spirited?" Perception is everything and I would suggest we be the adults.

    •  Spin machine is run by the special interests, who (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      clammyc

      control/own the news media, most of the Republicans, and a large part of the Democrats.

      We do not need to worry about becoming like them.  We will never become like the special interests, because we are good people.

      What we need to figure out is how can we prevail over these traitorous special interests, who have high-jacked our country, when they have monopolized our Congress and news media.

      We elected Obama, for one, but as we can see, they are still calling the shots from behind the curtain.

      We the People have safety in numbers, which the special interests had thwarted, as long as the economy was humming along, with their propaganda.  Now, however, the people have realized what has been done to them and our country.  We need to harness the power of the people to make the news media do its job and report the truth, not the spin of the special interests.  We need to make our Representatives in Congress listen to us, not the special interests.

      We need to hold the criminals accountable.  

      We are now able to do all of this, because the special interests went too far and their plan has backfired.  

      So, please, don't tell us to let this opportunity slip, when it's clear you don't fully understand the parameters of this mess we're in.

      ClammyC's diary is just what we need to galvanize the press, who agree with us, but have been towing the line of their sponsors, because they were afraid to lose their jobs, and our Congress critters, who also were afraid of the hatchet job the media could do on them & the biased justice system can do on them (Don Siegelman style), if they listen to us and buck the lobbyists.

      Information is the currency of democracy. ~ T.J.

      by CIndyCasella on Sun Dec 21, 2008 at 01:43:10 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  Republicans are teh suck (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    alizard, Panda, clammyc

    Tehy just are. Suck on this, Republicans. Democrats rule your world now.

    (Of course, as we all know, that doesn't necessarily mean anything these days. But don't tell anyone. I like to see a grown Republican sweat bullets of fear.)

    The liberal soul shall be made fat. He who waters shall be watered also himself. (Proverbs 11:25)

    by kovie on Sun Dec 21, 2008 at 10:37:42 AM PST

  •  Fuck all of you.*** (0+ / 0-)

    ahem. Now that I have your attention...

    (I'm sorry, sometimes you need a very bright flash of light to pull people's attention away from the constant strobing of our cultural medium)

    It ain't happening. Here's why IMNSHO. The election is over. We won that game. But there are way too many people posting to this site, myself included. Everyone here should not be here. Everyone reading this is not:

    out organizing
    out talking to neighbors
    editing a documentary (what I should be doing)
    starting a grassroots effort on anything

    IOW, this site should be mostly vacant, now. A hundred thousand people sitting on our asses posting comments to this website are a hundred thousand people less doing something else.

    Log out. Shut down. Get to work.

    You use your map, I'll use mine. I'll see you there.

    I seem to recall Barack stressing as much as he could stress without being so overtly obvious that his political enemies would have noticed, when he repeatedly said that most of the change will need to occur from the bottom up.

    And now he is in the reality distortion field of DC, and everything he says must be measured.

    Inevitably, when a group gets large enough, it becomes more about the group. It becomes an easier target for surreptitious saboteurs. And the news becomes opinion immediately after the first two or three descriptive sentences. We spend most of our time analyzing the corn kernels in each other's 'opinion'.

    Log out. Shut down. Get to work.

    You use your map, I'll use mine. I'll see you there.

    (There. How was that?)

    ***I mean that in the best possible way

    Before Jesus, there was love. Without love, there would be no Jesus.

    by oobi on Sun Dec 21, 2008 at 11:09:30 AM PST

    •  This website is getting the attention of the news (0+ / 0-)

      media, who are finally talking about holding these criminals accountable on the teevee, which reaches far more people than we can by talking to our neighbors, who already agree with us, because they are about to lose their jobs and homes.  

      Diaries like this one are very effective, in fact, much more effective than the plan you propose, so you can go out and do your thing, but we will continue to make sure that accountability gets put back on the table, thank you.

      p.s. if you use that kind of language with your neighbors, heaven help you, if you want them to join you.

      Information is the currency of democracy. ~ T.J.

      by CIndyCasella on Sun Dec 21, 2008 at 01:24:10 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  between elections (0+ / 0-)

      DailyKos is mainly about discussing public policy... and given a Democratic Party in power, trying to figure out how this country ought to be governed is exactly what we should be doing.

      In the unlikely event that Obama wants progressive help in pressuring Congress to get his program passed, I'm sure somebody on the White House staff has www.dailykos.com somewhere among his list of thousands of bookmarks and can figure out how to get an account and post.

      Looking for intelligent energy policy alternatives? Try here.

      by alizard on Sun Dec 21, 2008 at 03:40:24 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  you can say that at any time (0+ / 0-)

      just because someone is reading or writing now (or any particular time) doesn't mean that many of us are NOT doing the organizing/talking to neighbors, etc.

      Many of us are perfectly capable of that.  And many of us have spent the past year+ doing just that for this election.

      Center-right country, my ASS.

      by clammyc on Mon Dec 22, 2008 at 06:08:19 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  In the annals of history (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    clammyc, CIndyCasella

    I hope the truth about the last 8 years is told. Dick and his BFF Don are War Criminals. Before we're all dead these evil bloodthirsty men MUST be held accountable. George too...he really enjoyed the torture part. If they aren't we truly do suck.

  •  I'm-gonna-kick-yourass diaries (0+ / 0-)

    are self-indulgent and self-righteous, and we simply don't have time for that anymore.

    We must find a way to work together for the common good. That's the way to "move the country forward again." Smacking people down is only going to divide us, distract us and keep us spinning our wheels.

    If you don't agree with me about that, find something you do agree with me about and let's get on with it.

    Online counseling from a uniquely healing perspective: Center for Transformative Counseling

    by sunflight on Sun Dec 21, 2008 at 11:15:49 AM PST

    •  Self righteous = wingnut buzzword. How is allow- (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Hornito, alizard

      ing criminals to continue to gut our environment, raid our treasury, bankrupt us, and keep on killing and maiming" with impunity for the common good"?

      No, we've had enough of your spin, thank you, and it's time to turn this truck around.  

      Information is the currency of democracy. ~ T.J.

      by CIndyCasella on Sun Dec 21, 2008 at 01:18:45 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  then nothing is stopping you from (0+ / 0-)

      not reading them.

      Apparently we do still have time for them, and still need them (as evidenced by at least 2 front pagers recommending this diary).

      Once again, this is not meant towards those who want to work towards solutions - as I say in the diary.

      But it is clear that a good portion of people on the right don't have any intent of doing that.

      Center-right country, my ASS.

      by clammyc on Mon Dec 22, 2008 at 06:10:47 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  Of course (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Panda

    the question of why they don't stfu is only rhetorical. Because we know the answer. They're Republicans. If they had any sense at all, they would be Democrats to start with.

    Common Sense is not Common

    by RustyBrown on Sun Dec 21, 2008 at 11:20:52 AM PST

  •  You are wrong, Clammy C (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Panda, clammyc, newpioneer

    Well, for anyone that questions Holder (or anyone on the receiving end of questions about Holder) – there are three words.  Alberto.  Gonzales.  Torture.

    AlbertoGonzalesTorture is one word.

    "If religion is the opiate of the masses, then fundamentalism is the amphetamine." Miz Vittitow

    by MillieNeon on Sun Dec 21, 2008 at 11:24:56 AM PST

  •  In california the GOP (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    alizard, Panda, yowsta, CIndyCasella

    would bankrupt California in a desperate attempt to regain some power. Nationally the GOP has shown it would harm US interests just to hopefully gain some political points. We need to get rid of the sissy Democratic leadership and start prosecuting the criminals. This is not partisanship, its saving Democracy to keep crooks from controlling any single American party including the Democrats. The GOP culture of corruption needs to be broken.

    Patriotism consists not in waving the flag, but in striving that our country shall be righteous as well as strong. ~James Bryce

    by california keefer on Sun Dec 21, 2008 at 11:27:28 AM PST

  •  Great diary clammyc, thanks for making this snowy (4+ / 0-)

    Sunday much more crisp.  You nailed it, and now if there are any Democrats in the Senate or House who are listening, we may get somewhere; just don't hold your breath.  Happy holidays.

    When power leads man toward arrogance, poetry reminds him of his limitations. JFK

    by yowsta on Sun Dec 21, 2008 at 11:48:46 AM PST

  •  I for One Am Heartily Sick (9+ / 0-)

    of the wussy mantra I heard coming out of Joe Biden's mouth this AM on Talking Head TV.

    When asked about pursuing criminal charges against Bush Admin officials regarding torture, Beep Elect felt his spine go limp and his mouth slacken.  He replied, "P-E Obama and this administration is not about looking back, we're about moving forward.  It's time we healed old wounds."

    News flash, Boy-o.  There are certain kinds of wounds from which it is necessary to pull off the scabs and drain the pus before you put the bandages on and proceed with life as normal.

    The country needs and the world expects Obama, when president, not to wait for the Justice Department to determine if it wants to look into "wrong doing."  The country needs and the world expects him to treat this nation's suspected war criminals the same way it treated Germany's.  Those war criminals, and our own suspected war criminals have been involved in exactly the same crime -- TORTURE.

    President Obama, raise the fist of righteousness and bring it down on the heads and shoulders of the transgressors against the American Constitution decisively, forcefully, and powerfully. In short, restore America.  In other words LEAD, don't conciliate.

    Don't blacken the name Democrat with the brush Republicans used the past 8 years to sweep "inconvenient truths" under the table.  Else I will call, "Shame on you Barrack Obama.  Shame on you Joe Biden."

    They burn our children in their wars and grow rich beyond the dreams of avarice.

    by Limelite on Sun Dec 21, 2008 at 11:50:26 AM PST

  •  Obama wouldn't invite that snake to his own house (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    alizard

    No way he would. Yet Rick Warren is fine for The People's House.

    Yep Evil Doer Rick Warren will address us in "The Peoples House" that Obama seems hell-bent on giving to him without acknowledging there are 7,000,000 other "persons-of-god" much better, much more qualified than this Hack.

    OK - so now a second painful round of this for the LGBTQ Community after the outrage from the South Carolina Primary last Winter.

    I do not understand it. Awful awful decision BARACK - really it is.

    BARACK better not think for a minute we'll go quietly away on 1/20. Nope. I hope - I know all of Gay America will loudly protest Warren right through his evil shit from the podium that day.

    Ya See - Rick is OK since Obama threw us a bone. We get the FIRST Gay Marching Band ever at the inaguration parade. And that is nice on his part. I do appreciate it truly I do. We earned it.

    Except all the Networks will all cut away to commercial then to avoid showing it to America. Wanna Bet?

    So on to the next painful moment for our community after America gets to hear Rick Warren - Bastard. They never get to see the Gay Marching Band.  

    The LGBTQ Community is strong and this is and will be a long battle for our equal rights in this country. We will get there.

    No More Mr. Nice Gay!

    ObamaNation 2009! We Did It! ---- Elected > Rebecca Kaplan - Oakland City Council-At Large Seat -----2010 Oakland Mayor & CA-Governor - Undecided

    by AustinSF on Sun Dec 21, 2008 at 11:57:33 AM PST

  •  We must keep our eyes on the prize (0+ / 0-)

    revenge fantasies won't solve our problems - neither will artificially papering over real offenses against our Constitution.

    Rage is not a productive emotion, it burns out the enraged.

    Let's use our anger at injustice fuel action against injustice itself, first. Let's address the substantive consequences of unjust actions.

    Then - and only then - we should have a rational discussion about the most effective way to prevent similar consequences in the future. In some cases, this may involve punitive action - but we should be very careful - the notion of encouraging lawfulness by punitive action is a core conservative value; progressives tend to believe in effective law enforcement focusing on preventing ills, not vengeance against the ill.

    This isn't about "getting along" or "getting even" - this is about getting effective and sustained positive results - in particular, about effective governance.

    I'm not sure that encouraging an obsessive focus on punishing the Bush administration is the kind of thing that will lead to effective governance.

    One day posterity will remember, this strange era, these strange times, when ordinary common honesty was called courage. -- Yevgeny Yevtushenko

    by RandomActsOfReason on Sun Dec 21, 2008 at 12:05:06 PM PST

    •  Justice is not "revenge fantasy," it's the law. (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      alizard, truong son traveler

      The reason that these criminals are still here to commit even more crimes against our nation is because of fallacious arguments like yours after Watergate & Iran Contra: we must bury the wrongdoing and move on, etc.  

      It's the same cast of characters at play here that have already been given 2 more chances to trash our Constitution and pillage our treasury.

      Rational?  How is it rational to let people flagrantly break our laws over and over again with impunity?  Doesn't the poor state of our economy tell you that they must be stopped?  How about the torture, maiming, and killing?  

      It's illogical not to investigate and try these criminals.

      We have had enough of this spin.

      Don't shoot the messenger by maligning us as just being vindictive.  We want to stop the madness and to regain our peace and prosperity.

      Information is the currency of democracy. ~ T.J.

      by CIndyCasella on Sun Dec 21, 2008 at 01:08:43 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Too bad you responded to a different comment (0+ / 0-)

        than the one I wrote, which started with

        "neither will papering over real offenses to our Constitution [solve our problems"

        , and included

        "Then - and only then [after we address the actual consequences of unlawful actions and the real hurts they have caused real people] - we should have a rational discussion about the most effective way to prevent similar consequences in the future. In some cases, this may involve punitive action"

        Somehow, you not only made me an apologist for the Bush administration, you also made this all about you. Which just proves that rage is not a productive emotion.

        One day posterity will remember, this strange era, these strange times, when ordinary common honesty was called courage. -- Yevgeny Yevtushenko

        by RandomActsOfReason on Mon Dec 22, 2008 at 12:32:49 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  It's all about law, our Constitution, and justice (0+ / 0-)

          Without it, we have lost our country.  

          You can insult me, but it won't validate your weak arguments for letting this administration & the special interests, who pull their strings, off the hook.

          I am not obsessive, nor am I full of rage.  I am simply a citizen, who loves her country, and when I see what this gang has done to destroy the foundations of our great nation, I want them to be held accountable, not out of "vindictiveness," but out of patriotism.

          Your spin has lost it's torque.

          I'm not sure that encouraging an obsessive focus on punishing the Bush administration is the kind of thing that will lead to effective governance.

          Do you call what we have now effective governance?  They should have pulled the plug on that outfit long ago with impeachment.  The economy speaks for how effective it was to circumvent the checks and balances explicitly put in place by the founding fathers to make sure that the sort of despotism we've been under these past 8 years would not destroy our democracy.  This administration figured out how to quell Congress and the justice system to force their agenda, which clearly had nothing to do with the peace and prosperity of We the People, nor the good reputation of our country worldwide.

          Information is the currency of democracy. ~ T.J.

          by CIndyCasella on Tue Dec 23, 2008 at 07:04:20 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  I thought it was all about listening (0+ / 0-)

            before responding.

            I did not argue, weakly or otherwise, to let "this administration & the special interests, who pull their strings", off the hook.

            Nor did I argue (and this assertion is particularly bizarre) that "what we have now" is "effective government.

            I see you are determined to argue with a straw man, rather than the real live person before you. have fun - personally, I find straw to be a bit dry and uncommunicative.

            One day posterity will remember, this strange era, these strange times, when ordinary common honesty was called courage. -- Yevgeny Yevtushenko

            by RandomActsOfReason on Tue Dec 23, 2008 at 02:55:41 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

    •  apparently, you don't learn from experience (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      truong son traveler

      or are too young to remember recent history from the Nixon Adminstration to the present.

      A very large number of Bush's senior level policymakers were/are "unindicted co-conspirators" in various GOP scandals who were let off the hook in the name of "bipartisanship" and "getting effective and sustained positive results" and "moving forward".

      If those people had been investigated, tried, and imprisoned, Bush wouldn't have been able to get the senior-level experienced people needed to carry out his criminal policies for the last 8 years.

      He would have had to try to get people like Monica Goodling too young to remember what happened to previous GOP criminals into Cabinet-level positions, or get people like Rumsfeld released from prison to appoint them, and if he'd tried either, he would have gotten howls of laughter even from the punditocracy.

      Letting GOP criminals off the hook is a guarantee of future disastrous criminal experiments in government.

      Do you really think we can afford any more?

      Looking for intelligent energy policy alternatives? Try here.

      by alizard on Sun Dec 21, 2008 at 03:48:28 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Note that no where in my post (0+ / 0-)

        did I suggest "letting" anyone "get off the hook".

        I did suggest that there is a priority to things, and that our first order of business should be to fix the things they broke, and address the consequences of their offenses - and then hold the guilty responsible.

        As opposed to all the posts that seem to feel that the only, sole focus of the Obama administration and Congress and the Supreme Court for the next 4 years should be sticking bamboo slivers under Dick Cheney's nails.

        BTW, I disagree with your premise that jail time is a deterrent to crime, and that harsh penalties are the answer to lawlessness. That is a strict father meme. As a progressive, I believe lawlessness is the result of a complex series of things, including cultural norms, adequate enforcement and oversight, properly structured systems that remove the incentives for committing crimes, and a whole host of other factors.

        Conservatives focus solely on the lawbreaker, and believe that the only problem we have is that we don't punish them enough, and that the primary purpose of law enforcement is deterrence.

        I don't buy that premise; we could string the entire Bush Cabinet up on DC's cherry trees and have them swaying in the wind for all to see - but, if we don't address the dynamics that impel them to lawlessness, if we don't put real teeth - and real funding - into enforcement, if we don't regulate, if we don't legislate, and if we don't adjudicate - then all the punishments in the world will not stop the next criminal from taking our nation down the tubes.

        The real problem here is that none of you taking this position want to rationally debate people like me - you prefer instead to create simplistic straw men and portray anyone who urges a focus on systems, not persons, as an apologist and facilitator of crime.

        One day posterity will remember, this strange era, these strange times, when ordinary common honesty was called courage. -- Yevgeny Yevtushenko

        by RandomActsOfReason on Mon Dec 22, 2008 at 12:40:32 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

  •  Tipped and recc'ed for (5+ / 0-)

    suck-diddly-uck.

    As an Alaska Resident, I am pleased to report no Russians in my driveway again this morning. Carry on...

    by frsbdg on Sun Dec 21, 2008 at 12:12:07 PM PST

  •  I like the part where the Repugs (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Panda, clammyc

    get their ass handed back to them:

    ...especially in light of the overwhelming ass kicking that Obama and the Democrats just gave them...

  •  The whole "center right" meme... (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    alizard, Panda, CIndyCasella

    Doesn't that suggest that policy-wise, the whole country, if not all by choice, was functioning as a right-wing extremist entity, and that these same "center-right" people were mostly okay with that?

    Just checking... I wanna have my extremist cake and eat it, too...

  •  Who the hell wants to get along with (5+ / 0-)

    these Republican dip-shits.  It'd be sorta like shaking hands with Vlad the Impaler just after he raped your sister.  

     

    The longer I live, the clearer I perceive how unmatchable a compliment one pays when he says of a man "he has the courage to utter his convictions." Mark Twain

    by Persiflage on Sun Dec 21, 2008 at 12:37:29 PM PST

  •  re: corruption (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    alizard

    It's one thing to have the bad apple. We've got Jefferson, of the $90,000 in the freezer cash fame who got defeated. We've got questions about the impropriety of actions of a number of Democratic politicians, from Charlie Rangel to Jack Murtha.

    And of course, giant targets like Rod Blagojevich.

    But all of these are individuals, across a spectrum who have varying degrees of questionable behavior.

    Only Republicans systemically use corruption as political force, agree en masse to break laws, from jamming phones to eavesdropping on phones, from denying people their right to vote to taking away their lives. Only Republicans railroad people off the street into jail, or make up false charges and remove sitting Democratic governors.

    Only Republicans are guilty accessories to mass murder by way of gross incompetence, re: 9/11 and Katrina.

    Everything they say about the actions of those few Democrats means nothing.

    2008, the Year the Republican Party dissolved into a little pond of goo

    by shpilk on Sun Dec 21, 2008 at 02:08:19 PM PST

  •  Concentrate on the Democratic Primaries in 2010 (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    clammyc

    "...we have the responsibility to move our elected officials more towards the progressive policies this country needs..."

    The way to do that is to find and support liberal candidates in all the 2010 congressional primaries. This is the only way we can reliably force Congress to pay attention to the progressive policies this country needs.

    We can petition and whine and stomp our feet all we want, but it's only the fear of losing office that will force congressional leaders to start implementing progressive policies. It won't come from Obama (who has no power to implement these policies, even if he were so inclined) and it won't come from the conservative packed courts, so we have to force it through Congress.

    We need to identify key House races and target them for our attention. I think Speaker Pelosi's district in San Francisco is prime territory for that because it is one of the most liberal areas of the country. If we can't put a liberal in her congressional seat, how are we ever going to gain power?

    Please help me locate and support progressive candidates for House seats in the 2010 Democratic primaries.

  •  Bush is still writing laws (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Knarfc

    that will cause problems for the Democrats. These are hard to overturn, too.

    He has written some that lets our water be polluted even more.

    Bush takes care of Bush.  It is no coincidence he has 3000 acres in Paraguay that has pristine pure water under it.  Water will become the new oil.

    Pathetic.

    •  it's about 100K acres (0+ / 0-)

      and given the new left-wing government in Paraguay that will be happy to extradite Bush to any nation that cares to ask, Bush will never live there.

      In fact, if you want a good price on a chunk of land with a nice aquifer under it and interesting neighbors like a Moonie compound and a Hezbollah training camp, contact the White House RIGHT NOW and make Bush an offer.

      The nice part about having neighbors like that is while you might be SOL if you need to borrow a cup of sugar, asking for a pound of C-4 should work just fine, and I doubt either the Moonies or Hezbollah would even bother to ask what you want it for.

      I think regardless of what Obama and the new AG and Congress do or don't do, that shortly after Bush leaves office, there will be warrants from the International Criminal Court for the arrest of Bush, Rumsfeld, Cheney, etc.

      While as non-participants in the international rule of law, these warrants are unenforceable in the USA (I'll believe that the US will join the ICC after it happens)... if Bush leaves the country, he'll be a fugitive from international justice looking for a place from which he can't be extradited.

      Which will make trying to buy land from him very, very difficult.

      Looking for intelligent energy policy alternatives? Try here.

      by alizard on Sun Dec 21, 2008 at 03:58:08 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  It's about time that the Arlen Spectors and any (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    clammyc

    other Repug's who try this:

    latch onto something that can be blown out of proportion and run with it.

    will promptly be shown the door out of their jobs, as we, (as evidenced by several back to back elections) will not put up with that shit anymore!

    *a hundred years from now, the future may be different because I was important in the life of a child*

    by bonesy on Sun Dec 21, 2008 at 03:01:15 PM PST

  •  Their feigning outrage is interfering with (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    clammyc

    the very real outrage that I feel against them. They're monopolizing all the outrage attention with their faux ranting.

    Silence is not an effective reply to propaganda.

    by fleisch on Sun Dec 21, 2008 at 03:30:32 PM PST

  •  Thanks ClammyC. Wheh! I'm Tired of All (0+ / 0-)

    the negativity. It helps to have a diary such as yours to again remind us of the horrific corruption that's we've been slimmed with, over Bush/Cheney's reign.

    It's bad enough with anxiety over the depression (yes) we're in. Reading and watching about more and more people losing their homes and renters not being able to pay their rent - and both groups being turned out of their living places. And thousands upon thousands losing their jobs. And retailers and other businesses capsizing.

    And states, counties, and cities in dire straights and laying off workers, cutting their services. And food banks unable to feed the massive increase of desperate people.

    I wonder if during the 1930's depression there were many negative people who carped, complained, and criticized the heroic efforts of FDR to turn things around. I guess there were, from the Republican side. (I was raised in a family who voted Republican. As a child I heard some people speak disparagingly of FDR. I wondered why and only in recent years have I begun to understand the clash in ideologies between conservatives and liberals. In the early 1960's my brother went to UC Berkeley and began to tell our family that the TV and newspaper news we were getting was inaccurate and slanted to the right. As we became more informed, all in our family became Democrats, which was more in line with our ideologies).

    Over the last several years in the media there have been more and more articles about the history of the 1930's forward from the perspective of conservative vs liberal. I'd like to see more of these fascinating histories. Maybe articles on how it was in the past might inform and educate positively. Is anyone up for it?

  •  As a metaperson, Conservatism is a chronic liar. (0+ / 0-)

    The character flaw of chronic dishonesty, also called The Trap, dooms American conservatives to be unable to fix their movement and their party. Unless and until we see evidence to the contrary, the rational expectation is that their institutions won't ever successfully reform themselves. While individuals (such as myself) might have epiphanies, they will just end up leaving the group, not changing it.

    I want to live in a civilization.

    by SciVo on Sun Dec 21, 2008 at 06:22:45 PM PST

  •  about time we told it like it is (0+ / 0-)

    Waiting for the Dem who is going to stand up and say these things when Specter or the traitor Karl Rove start spouting their shit; or any of the Repugs or their fellow traveler apologists like Lieberass...

    Someone has to be willing to finally say 'bipartisanship does not mean Democrats bending over and doing what the Repugs want'

    When IS the last time the Repugs were bipartisan on any major issue and went along with Dems for the greater good? We're waiting...

    And so true - they have given us so much material these past 8 years with the corruption, the deceit, the lies, that every time they open their mouths some spokesperson for the Dems should just throw it back in their face and make them choke on their own shit...

    When it comes to the disaster that has been the last 8 years the Dem strategy has to be to borrow a phrase from the world of analysis: "make them own it".

    Blue is blue and must be that. But yellow is none the worse for it - Edith Sidebottom

    by kenwards on Sun Dec 21, 2008 at 07:47:09 PM PST

  •  Can we get the ~95% of the Abramoff documentation (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    clammyc

    … that John McCain has been sitting on and keeping locked away, and finally have them placed into the public record?

    Yuletide benefit concerts by the Dutch chorus "Nonstop"!! 12/19 in Baarn, 12/21 in Aalsmeer

    by lotlizard on Sun Dec 21, 2008 at 08:59:03 PM PST

  •  No kidding (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    clammyc

    Can Bush try any harder to avoid responsibility??  Bush always regretting that the "intelligence about Iraq was flawed" would be like Clinton regretting that the "interns were so cute."

    "Don't hope for a stronger America. Vote for one." - John McCain. I agree!!!

    by cartwrightdale on Mon Dec 22, 2008 at 12:13:03 AM PST

  •  Guy told me "Obama may be the antichrist, (0+ / 0-)

    but, wtf, Cheney is the devil incarnate, and he's here right now - let's deal him!"

    Go figure! A "staunch Republican," and he just placed his prized copy of Obama Nation on the fire!

    I think it was the inanity and vapidity of Palin McCain non-issue-oriented campaigning that made him a DFH.

    "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -Thomas Jefferson

    by ezdidit on Mon Dec 22, 2008 at 02:33:11 AM PST

  •  the "they'll never do it" comments & diaries suck (0+ / 0-)

    too.

    One notion I've been disabused of over the past several years is "political leadership" as something possessed by an elected representative.

    Political Leadership in this country consists of driving around in a convertible looking for a mob and then saying "look at me!  I'm leading the parade!"

    No, our leaders will never prosecute war crimes.
    Unless & until we demand it.

    No, our leaders will never adopt a progressive approach to the financial crisis.
    Unless & until we demand it.

    Wash, rinse, repeat.
    Unless & until we demand it.

    Folks, we are the political leadership.
    As the Navajo say "we are the people we've been waiting for"
    As they said in Caddy Shack "be the ball, Danny"

    Our job is to demand the change we want to see.  Loudly.  Stridently.  Incessantly.

    "The Universe is change; our life is what our thoughts make it." Marcus Aurelius

    by Mosquito Pilot on Mon Dec 22, 2008 at 04:38:47 AM PST

Meteor Blades, Dana Houle, Alumbrados, paradox, Superskepticalman, Susan S, boydog, vicki, Terri, raboof, LeislerNYC, Bill in Portland Maine, Cowalker, Peace JD, Phoenix Woman, nolalily, eugene, Rayne, slinkerwink, laurak, kate mckinnon, ORDem, brooklyndem, Trendar, gogol, glitterscale, Hornito, Liberal Thinking, greendem, SaveDemocracy, JeffLieber, Danno11, nicolemm, whataboutbob, mem from somerville, melvynny, BigOkie, RunawayRose, Sprinkles, dengre, tommurphy, musicalhair, Shockwave, donna in evanston, maracucho, meg, LuvSet, Jay C, Midwest Meg, eeff, ThirstyGator, frsbdg, TX Unmuzzled, xynz, azale, kdub, MackInTheBox, Bexley Lane, austxlib, WI Deadhead, frisco, dash888, ZAPatty, sobermom, SallyCat, mataliandy, vrexford, expatjourno, dnamj, RubDMC, chira, bronte17, missLotus, conchita, TracieLynn, indybend, cskendrick, mentaldebris, Cassandra77, mbayrob, nyceve, understandinglife, SecondComing, OCD, ask, CoolOnion, highacidity, KMc, Xapulin, Pithy Cherub, Minerva, PBnJ, mkfarkus, roses, JuliaAnn, greenomanic, murphsurf, Larry Bailey, juslikagrzly, CodeTalker, jbeach, maven98, thingamabob, erquirk, sidnora, dksbook, Brit, Eddie C, Melanchthon, mayan, hopesprings, Lynwaz, danthrax, MA Liberal, rufustfyrfly, TiaRachel, madame defarge, White Buffalo, exiledfromTN, cosette, wdrath, attydave, On The Bus, nika7k, snakelass, zapmart, raster44, produceus, lcrp, Pohjola, Democratic Hawk, inclusiveheart, dkmich, MH in PA, KateCrashes, ybruti, davybaby, side pocket, mungley, KayCeSF, tomjones, CanYouBeAngryAndStillDream, bablhous, AaronBa, solesse413, avahome, pat208, bibble, thereisnospoon, Timroff, Limelite, wolverinethad, Gowrie Gal, ebbinflo, davidincleveland, chumley, historys mysteries, Bluesee, marina, ZZZzzz, 3goldens, Kewalo, NoMoreLies, DianeNYS, bellevie, Elise, Sam I Am, JanetT in MD, JaciCee, SherwoodB, theKK, relentless, mjd in florida, irate, PBen, Superpole, truong son traveler, Clem Yeobright, Brooke In Seattle, YucatanMan, Laurence Lewis, boofdah, Jules Beaujolais, owlbear1, bleeding blue, jimstaro, EdlinUser, Existentialist, jimreyn, Inland, GreyHawk, podster, Kayakbiker, Overseas, smkngman, sheddhead, quaoar, lotlizard, peteri2, QuickSilver, Joy Busey, demmefatale, Isara, Ozzie, noemie maxwell, The Raven, zinger99, sodalis, LithiumCola, Rogneid, playtonjr, bookwoman, jj24, Ekaterin, proudprogressiveCA, empathy, dancewater, naltikriti, Land of Enchantment, kathny, simplicio, Asinus Asinum Fricat, fhcec, noweasels, begone, Mother Mags, third Party please, LeftOverAmerica, kovie, Thundergod, Nightprowlkitty, Do Tell, Patriot Daily News Clearinghouse, keeplaughing, vigilant meerkat, sherlyle, RustyBrown, Clytemnestra, BobbyK, BlueInARedState, Escapadia, cookseytalbott, martyc35, kestrel9000, RoyT, Scientician, buhdydharma, KenBee, dougymi, The Wizard, VictorLaszlo, carolita, Partially Impartial, greenearth, ginja, Farradin, Blue Wind, RockNAwe, Flippant to the Last, triv33, tecampbell, global citizen, Tanya, Marshall Collins, Francine Shacter, jasonbl, nonnie9999, imabluemerkin, FireCrow, Caoimhin Laochdha, JVolvo, happy camper, Dauphin, NearlyNormal, CTLiberal, Preston S, ZombyWoof, Potus2020, myrealname, soccergrandmom, doinaheckuvanutjob, bonesy, MBNYC, buckinfuzzard, quantumspin, llbear, Turbonerd, foxsmartchicago, CA Nana, profh, Persiflage, va dare, fiddlingnero, Cassiodorus, means are the ends, Dreaming of Better Days, kurt, shaharazade, airmarc, PhilW, elie, Friend of the court, Hedwig, Temmoku, blueintheface, markthshark, OHdog, Aaa T Tudeattack, DemOrDie, DBunn, seabos84, ammasdarling, lams712, ctlr, bigchin, One Pissed Off Liberal, rufusthedog, Cali Techie, satyrday, Buckeye Hamburger, ibonewits, asilomar, Cronesense, Duke S, blue armadillo, dmh44, california keefer, possum, NDakotaDem, moodyinsavannah, godislove, LV Pol Girl, Dartagnan, ColoTim, atlliberal, gloriana, EdSF, moosely2006, The Reverend and Doctor Omed, jds1978, yowsta, kath25, operculum, Jimdotz, ezdidit, DWG, BCM, drchelo, twinpeaks, Unbozo, bnasley, Kyle the Mainer, Orange County Liberal, Grover StL, MI Sooner, GMFORD, manwithnoname, BKuhl, montanajen, thursdays child, jnhobbs, millwood, Rumarhazzit, skod, ImpeachKingBushII, JML9999, eyesoars, LynneK, TomP, Empower Ink, Red no more, NearlySomebody, MKinTN, fayeforcure, wondering if, rogerdaddy, mconvente, pleochroic, TX Freethinker, ratador, RickMassimo, weegeeone, edison, MikePhoenix, OleHippieChick, Youffraita, bythesea, skohayes, Deep Undercover Agent, lineatus, Archangel, beanbagfrog, Its any one guess, monkeybrainpolitics, North Coast Ohioan, tofumagoo, pamelabrown, happymisanthropy, Wek, pickandshovel, bluesheep, Jeff Y, jorogo, mofembot, Bigyaknut, Gemina13, Notreadytobenice, Ismay, luckylizard, James Kresnik, DixieDishrag, pelagicray, Tross, oobi, magicsister, Pastry Assassin, CatJab, plethora, Scubaval, watercarrier4diogenes, greenpunx, shortgirl, CIndyCasella, ggwoman55, ryangoesboom, LaFeminista, Celtic Merlin, satanicpanic, cameoanne, SciMathGuy, Bule Betawi, McGahee220, Jacob Bartle, Mr Tentacle, DontTaseMeBro, WSComn, emboyo, Imavehmontah, liluli, BoiseBlue, WereBear, jaf49, CanyonWren, Inky99, Kairos, imchange, weltshmertz, janmtairy, notrouble, Partisan Progressive, crazyshirley2100, SciVo, panamaniaco, rini6, EquationDoc, DefendOurConstitution, Daily Activist, lookit, Mercuriousss, redtex, followyourbliss, Kaili Joy Gray, ZilV, hyper, allep10, kevinpdx, deutschluz, IngeniousGirl, Exquisite, newview88, synductive99, IreGyre, Ibis Exilis, PhotogHog, elropsych, sherijr, FundaMental Transformation, Sleepwalkr, deviant24x, citisven, TenthMuse, Cleopatra, o possum, Choom Gang Vets for Truth, Clyde the Cat, BigVegan, BrighidG, My Stupid Opinion, oohdoiloveyou, Sam James, Otherday, Jampacked, winkster, elijah311, LaughingPlanet, The Jester, eXtina, My mom is my hero, Blue Blood, The Free Agent, GeeBee, fidellio, stunzeed, fleisch, chrome327, wvmom, LeftyAce, Radical def, JJC, legalchic, Man from Wasichustan, Dexter, VaHopes, gougef, snaglepuss, Monkey Man Hermit, calichristi, tb mare, Surly Cracker, ourtime08, Funkygal, abrauer, Johnny Q, Pay It Forward, nirbama, lexifer, MsGrin, kenwards, Floande, keonhp, bottles, science nerd, Actbriniel, jeanma, NellaSelim, theKgirls, Pakalolo, tuaka1992, nampa45, the girl, Colorado is the Shiznit, Verstand, Freelance Escapologist, Mz LadyPhoenix, Wolf Of Aquarius, AuroraDawn, Laurdet, good aint it vern, soundchaser, the national gadfly, The Son of the Devil Himself, kevin k, bj57, Civil Writes Activist, blueinmn, future nurse, elisathon, Carolyn in Oregon, Cinnamon Rollover, debaseTheBase, athena47, bamabikeguy, Dog Chains, junipercussion, sjr1, PatriotsFightTheIronHeel, Jenny Cash, gilead

Subscribe or Donate to support Daily Kos.

Click here for the mobile view of the site