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Meteor Blades had a post about newspapers and their failure to correct errors.

Of course, you will never see a "correction" like that in the Times or any other U.S. newspaper. In fact, you never see that many corrections at all because they're either buried or don't appear, period. A year ago, Scott Maier, an associate professor at the University of Oregon’s School of Journalism and Communication, concluded from his research that fewer than 2 percent of factually flawed articles are corrected at dailies.

Considering that Daily Kos's front pagers fail to correct their errors, that is rank hypocrisy.

Earlier this year we had a front pager say West Virginians were too racist to vote for a black candidate.

The press, however, will lap up the talking points of the pundits, Clinton spinners (and Republicans) that losing Kentucky and West Virginia means that Obama won't do well with White voters, when it really means voters in Appalachia aren't ready to vote for a Black candidate, even though in most of the rest of the country they are.

Since DHinMI has had the audacity at times to claim that he was not referring to racism, I'll point out the headline of his post was: "How Kentucky, West Virginia and Racism Could Screw Up the Clinton Exit"

But the white vote in West Virginia was the same as the white vote nationally.

National
Vote by race
White voters 43 percent Obama

West Virginia
Vote by race
White voters 41 percent Obama

Then we had front pagers routinely refer to red counties that included Texas, Oklahoma, Arkansas and other areas not in Appalachia as Appalachian (here's just one example).

When errors are pointed out to the front pagers not just by me, but also by other readers, no corrections are printed.

Meet the new media - same as the old media.

I've put off writing about the hypocrisy of the Daily Kos front page waiting for the writers to correct themselves. They haven't.

In mid November, kos wrote

Wait, there is another reason I bring this up. The assertion made, that Latinos wouldn't vote for an African American, had seriously ugly undertones -- that we Latinos were too racist to vote for a black man.

Here was my reply.

Now I've never denied racism isn't a problem here. But as I've pointed out time after time, it's a problem everywhere. The exit polling proved that racism was no more of a factor than the national number.

While it's important to hold the traditional media accountable, it's also important to hold the new media accountable as well.

Update: Off to run errands. Been trying to depart and keep getting sucked back into the comments.

Originally posted to Carnacki on Mon Dec 29, 2008 at 05:57 AM PST.

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  •  Tip (339+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Alumbrados, Ed in Montana, zzyzx, BrooklynBoy, raboof, Aeolus, fcvaguy, Phoenix Woman, MadRuth, Savage, eugene, hester, decisivemoment, Bendygirl, MrHinkyDink, Timaeus, Anton Sirius, Geenius at Wrok, Tuffy, nicolemm, Dems2004, emal, odum, lobbygow, tommurphy, annalivia, sara seattle, wu ming, Ed Drone, meg, willyr, moira977, chicagochristianleft, PhillyGal, catjo, x, fightcentristbias, Sandy on Signal, Cambridgemac, prfb, caliberal, Bryce in Seattle, sobermom, BenGoshi, MarkInSanFran, Radical Faith, Heart of the Rockies, geordie, RubDMC, Cho, kayebee, missLotus, mentaldebris, Wee Mama, srkp23, Time Waits for no Woman, RabidNation, Xapulin, PBnJ, cosmic debris, Scoopster, mkfarkus, mrblifil, LeftofArizona, altoid, L0kI, Boston to Salem, juslikagrzly, Dem in Knoxville, exconservative, lotuspoint, dmsilev, CocoaLove, dksbook, wader, Anderson Republican, WeatherDem, psnyder, Moody Loner, Dallasdoc, Eddie in ME, grannyhelen, kevin22262, ccr4nine, Kidspeak, desmoinesdem, johnnygunn, attydave, kalmoth, walkshills, blonde moment, zett, ybruti, WV Democrat, randallt, Virginia Liberal, mdsiamese, Irish Patti, Timroff, gsbadj, donailin, decitect, sawgrass727, greenskeeper, madaprn, davidincleveland, joanneleon, Fabian, mrmango, maybeeso in michigan, bloomer 101, 3goldens, freakofsociety, Phoebe Tea, CTPatriot, rweba, zeuspapa, PBen, jhutson, panicbean, clammyc, Simplify, Clem Yeobright, stitchmd, wildcat6, Turkana, Lepanto, devadatta, majcmb1, Mr X, ladybug53, Burned, Ambrosius, Phil S 33, WolfmanSpike, Prison4Bushco, blue jersey mom, The Bulldog Manifesto, AnotherMassachusettsLiberal, nyseer, Marcus Junius Brutus, cerulean, zinger99, sodalis, Silence is Complicity, Riff, MindRayge, dsteffen, bartman, Unduna, Lindy, tigerdog, Snud, viscerality, begone, lgmcp, snewp, RiaD, Tin hat mafia, Showman, Shirl In Idaho, esquimaux, trashablanca, Nightprowlkitty, Debbie in ME, The Sinistral, Patriot Daily News Clearinghouse, vigilant meerkat, edwardssl, BlueInARedState, andydoubtless, Big Eddie Calzone, Yellow Canary, jeffman, mango, Son of a Cat, greenearth, Hobbitfoot, triv33, bubbanomics, nonnie9999, Crashing Vor, real world chick, Pager, JVolvo, NearlyNormal, Preston S, steep rain, gabriella, nowheredesign, ridgerunner, llbear, emsprater, sarayakat, va dare, Dreaming of Better Days, Statusquomustgo, blueintheface, Dr Klahn, AntKat, AmericanRiverCanyon, One Pissed Off Liberal, anotherdemocrat, khereva, Cronesense, nipit, meowmissy, Haningchadus14, Russ Jarmusch, Cat Whisperer, possum, lordcopper, jetskreemr, gloriana, psychodrew, FishOutofWater, Matt Z, gustynpip, Rex Manning, dconrad, Seneca Doane, jayden, snowshoeblue, vbdietz, cyncynical, Junglered1, jnhobbs, dgil, Wreck Smurfy, The Red Pen, keikekaze, cacamp, gloryous1, kdnla, Predictor, LnGrrrR, alkalinesky, skymutt, condorcet, flowerfarmer, NYContrarian, NotGeorgeWill, Indexer, rontun, Wes Opinion, Cat Servant, Mannabass, Mother of Zeus, OWCH, wvablue, Therapy, MrJayTee, daddy4mak, Somebody Else For President, envwq, temptxan, o the umanity, RDemocrat, SpamNunn, luckylizard, MalachiConstant, Guadalupe59, Mad Season, caps lock on, dmhlt 66, immigradvocate, wishbone, jlms qkw, Fight or Die, TennesseeGurl, wv voice of reason, FudgeFighter, Bule Betawi, hippie bitch, arainsb123, Rick Aucoin, sustainable, snackdoodle, Hope08, Rabbithead, futurebird, carllaw, mim5677, Mercuriousss, UnaSpenser, Angry Mouse, deedogg, dawnt, soms, whatnext, fernan47, cassandraX, Amber6541, Just Bob, Lazar, Norbrook, CalGal47, oohdoiloveyou, angry liberaltarian, Sand in Florida, ArtSchmart, LaughingPlanet, eXtina, serendipityisabitch, amk for obama, Crabby Abbey, No Looking Back, Faith in Tomorrow, ExpressStreetcar, Benintn, HartfordTycoon, Puddytat, aggie98, nickrud, Caerus, BlueFranco, otter 8, bottles, CA Berkeley WV, Freelance Historian, JClarkPDX, VitaminD, Jane Lew, praying manatheist, the girl, ebbet, FeloniousMonk, DParker, Dretutz, arrows theorem, Chuck Cook, Alanna Trebond, tresgatos, zukesgirl64, ShowMeMoBlue, Laurie Gator, 4 Borders Pundit, Wicket, davidweinstein

    I won't be holding my breath for those corrections.

    There is nothing more deceptive than an obvious fact. S. Holmes

    by Carnacki on Mon Dec 29, 2008 at 05:58:02 AM PST

    •  Ben, I feel your pain... (62+ / 0-)

      Part of the problem is that it's awfully hard to admit you're wrong.

      Then again, there have been many times when I've seen stories being updated with new/corrected information.

      Still, transparency is important, and you're right with one major edit: we all need to post corrections when we get something wrong.

    •  In part, with some (3+ / 0-)

      it is that they have come from different backgrounds, not necessarily with journalistic training, or simply don't have time to get a second source, or interest to go back and correct errors.

      Perhaps at some point there can be a error area where such information can be collated and then inserted as a postscript to the original post?

      •  Perhaps (20+ / 0-)

        they should take the time to skim their comment threads. No idea how many times I've submitted a correction in a comment thread -- only to have it ignored.

        Obama's campaign just transformed from "Yes, we can" to "You're fuckin'-A right we did!"

        by Eddie in ME on Mon Dec 29, 2008 at 06:27:40 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Comments can help (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          atxcats, FrozeAgain

          as a collaborative process, but contrary opinions are often mistook for something other than discourse, and then things sometimes get heated.

          Once you bore down to diaries that are more specialized it seems the comments become more helpful than combative, at least in my experience.

          •  It depends on the subject, I think (4+ / 0-)

            Some corrections are welcomed. Some corrections, however, seem to be dropped into a thread, first post, and the commenter sticks to it like glue, at the expense of all other discussion.

            But that would be a different hypocrisy, one that's not part of the subject matter here. I definitely agree that there don't seem to be corrections proffered regularly, and I, like teacherken, would love to see corrections done the way he notes upthread:

            What I did did was cross out the incorrect info  like this:

            10%  

            and insert the correct information with an apology for having gotten in wrong.

            If I were king kos, I'd make that a standard requirement for all FPers. Will he? Depends on if he cares about accuracy or not.

            I'm not an anarchist, but it would be good if people started realizing the difference between political propaganda and the truth. --John Lennon

            by o the umanity on Mon Dec 29, 2008 at 06:47:42 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

          •  I'm careful about that (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Debbie in ME, dgil, atxcats

            I note "Correction" in my subject header and state actual factual information, including links when warranted.

            I'm not talking about stuff that results in fights over who's right, I'm talking blatantly incorrect stuff. Like typos. Or using the wrong link. Or adding a "negative" in a sentence that makes it become the opposite of what they're trying to say. Even things like that are ignored, after being pointed out by 50 commenters.

            It's obvious that some FPers never, ever read their comment threads. Or that they just don't care. And some are flat-out dynamite about it.

            Obama's campaign just transformed from "Yes, we can" to "You're fuckin'-A right we did!"

            by Eddie in ME on Mon Dec 29, 2008 at 08:29:03 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

    •  Perhaps it is time (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      tmo, Cambridgemac, rsmpdx

      For this site to hire a managing editor?

      "One of the reasons we were all thrilled Tuesday night is it was pretty obvious this was a collectively intelligent decision." - Al Gore

      by Marcus Junius Brutus on Mon Dec 29, 2008 at 06:08:01 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  I agree completely (17+ / 0-)

      as you know how I feel about accuracy and sourcing and being careful to back up what we write.

      Center-right country, my ASS.

      by clammyc on Mon Dec 29, 2008 at 06:44:01 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  Wish I had seen a (9+ / 0-)

      front page diary about the Tennessee fly ash tragedy before this front page diary on corrections, or the review of Amazon's new electronic book. I've been looking and looking for one, did I miss it?

      How does KOS ignore government officials telling people the water is safe to drink just a day or so after the incident? Reminded me of the EPA saying the area around the twin towers was safe after they fell.

      And now people are dead.

      'Journalism is the new factory farm'

      by the girl on Mon Dec 29, 2008 at 06:46:34 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  There were (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        wader, esquimaux, the girl

        A revolution is coming... whether we will it or not. We can affect its character; we cannot alter its inevitability. -- Robert F. Kennedy

        by Anton Sirius on Mon Dec 29, 2008 at 07:10:36 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Nope these aren't front page (4+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Anton Sirius, Fabian, moosely2006, wvablue

          these were diaries by individual KOSSACKs who were the only ones writing about this that I could see - no front page articles on KOS, just reviews of electronics and three repeats of the Open Thread on Condi Rice.

          Find me one by a front page writer. I've been looking and can't find one.

          'Journalism is the new factory farm'

          by the girl on Mon Dec 29, 2008 at 07:15:47 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  They are as front page as this diary is (0+ / 0-)

            A revolution is coming... whether we will it or not. We can affect its character; we cannot alter its inevitability. -- Robert F. Kennedy

            by Anton Sirius on Mon Dec 29, 2008 at 07:16:59 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  Huh? Do you know what Front Page means? nt (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Anton Sirius, moosely2006

              'Journalism is the new factory farm'

              by the girl on Mon Dec 29, 2008 at 07:17:59 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  Before this turns into a silly flame war (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Cambridgemac, the girl

                You wrote

                before this front page diary on corrections

                This is not a front page diary, it is a Recommended Diary, just as the two I linked were.

                A revolution is coming... whether we will it or not. We can affect its character; we cannot alter its inevitability. -- Robert F. Kennedy

                by Anton Sirius on Mon Dec 29, 2008 at 07:21:08 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  ARRRGH! (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Anton Sirius, Cambridgemac

                  I wasn't refering to THIS diary, I was referring to the one on the front page that this diarist was referring to.

                  'Journalism is the new factory farm'

                  by the girl on Mon Dec 29, 2008 at 07:24:55 AM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Actually you were (4+ / 0-)

                    referring to this diary as being on the front page.

                    "Wish I had seen a front page diary about the Tennessee fly ash tragedy before this front page diary on corrections,"

                    That sentence can only have one meaning. You may have intended something else but that isn't what you wrote. Perhaps you should issue a correction?

                    );

                    I understand there's some kind of upcoming political contest? -- Molly Ivans

                    by brenda on Mon Dec 29, 2008 at 08:55:33 AM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Darling brenda (2+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      Anton Sirius, moosely2006

                      you are the one mistaken.

                      The words "front page" refer to a "front page" diary, not a rec diary or a recent diary.

                      There are distinct differences among a front page diary and a rec diary and a recent diary.

                      Read up dear. Learn a little more before you jump on that high horse.

                      'Journalism is the new factory farm'

                      by the girl on Mon Dec 29, 2008 at 09:00:54 AM PST

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  I'm loving this thread. (2+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        Anton Sirius, rsmpdx

                        "You're miserable, edgy, and tired. You're in the perfect mood for journalism."

                        by Spider Jerusalem on Mon Dec 29, 2008 at 09:06:51 AM PST

                        [ Parent ]

                      •  Wow. (2+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        Anton Sirius, Catesby

                        You're not attending.

                        This diary, this one right here, right now, that we are in, this diary that YOU referred to as "front page" is NOT front page.

                        You want a front page on coal sludge. Yeah, me too. But you got you're apples and oranges mixed up in your first comment. Everybody else is doing just fine, thanks.

                        "In all chaos there is a cosmos, in all disorder, a secret order." Carl Jung

                        by Unduna on Mon Dec 29, 2008 at 09:07:20 AM PST

                        [ Parent ]

                      •  Not a very high horse (4+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        tmo, Anton Sirius, dudemanguy, gustynpip

                        Just common english. Let's take a look.

                        "Wish I had seen a front page diary about the Tennessee fly ash tragedy before this front page diary on corrections,"

                        The pronoun "this" is clearly referring to the diary we are currently commenting in:

                        "Hypocrisy on the front page of DailyKos"
                        by Carnacki

                        Pronouns like "this" are function words. That is, they can stand in for other other nouns or noun phrases. In this case we could substitute "Carnacki's diary titled "Hypocrisy on the front page of DailyKos". Or we could shorten that to: "Carnacki's diary". Therefore we have:

                        "Wish I had seen a front page diary about the Tennessee fly ash tragedy before Carnacki's front page diary on corrections,"

                        However Carnacki's diary is not a front page diary. It is a recommended diary. Therefore the initial statement claiming it is a front page diary must be false.

                        QED

                        I understand there's some kind of upcoming political contest? -- Molly Ivans

                        by brenda on Mon Dec 29, 2008 at 09:44:05 AM PST

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  Brenda (2+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          Anton Sirius, Carnacki

                          In a conversation with Carnacki, which is what my comment was, I was referring to what Carnacki was writing about - the ONLY front page diary about corrections written by MeteorBlades.

                          There is no other, to my knowledge, front page diary about the subject of corrections other than the one belonging to MeteorBlades.

                          In the context (which you have chosen to ignore) it was clear that I was referring to the ONLY diary written about corrections on the front page - the one by Meteor Blades.

                          If you or anyone else read it wrong, that's your problem.

                          My reference was correct, since Carnacki's diary was NOT on the front page, and was not even a REC diary when I made that comment. If you can tell the difference between a front page diary and a rec diary and a recent diary, you can understand the context.

                          But you have successfully sidetracked an important conversation begun by Carnacki and diverted everyone's attention from my original point, which was that KOS has failed to publish any FRONT PAGE diary on the tragedy in Tennessee.

                          'Journalism is the new factory farm'

                          by the girl on Mon Dec 29, 2008 at 12:34:50 PM PST

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  Amazing (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            the girl

                            You can't even admit you might have been a bit unclear... love the pseudo-irony.

                            Since you were referring to Meteor's open thread posting (he wrote no diary about corrections, if we're going to be so exact and all) about journalistic standards, however, the correct phrasing would have been something more like "that front page post", not "this front page diary". "Meteor's front page post" would have been far more precise, though.

                            Let's just leave this at us all in agreement that the lack of front page coverage about the disaster in Tennessee was noteworthy.

                            A revolution is coming... whether we will it or not. We can affect its character; we cannot alter its inevitability. -- Robert F. Kennedy

                            by Anton Sirius on Mon Dec 29, 2008 at 05:15:50 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Okay this is the last time I will engage (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Anton Sirius, Jane Lew

                            Anton, way back in like my second comment, I clarified what I meant.

                            ARRRGH! (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:Anton Sirius, Cambridgemac
                            I wasn't refering to THIS diary, I was referring to the one on the front page that this diarist was referring to.

                            You rec'd me for that - but Brenda couldn't let it go and kept it up. That's the problem, she was the one who antagonized this for no reason and without any manners.

                            I clarified any ambiguity I presented - up front, yet I was badgered all day. Unfairly.

                            I stand by everything I said. There are different terminologies for the diaries, and it is my understanding under the KOS FAQs, that the ones referred to as "front page" are written by a select group of authors - and KOS has selected them. Neither you nor I can write a front page diary. Neither can Carnacki.

                            Our diaries can be listed on the front page, but they are not known as front page diaries.

                            But you have been fair Anton Sirius, and for that you have my respect. Thanks.

                            And for background, I am a former journalist who covered environmental disasters and have seen the people I've interviewed die from drinking contaminated water that they were told was safe by their government. It's taken over 10 years since I first exposed it and just now the government is getting to any remediation. The people do, however, have a public water supply as a result of my stories.

                            So when I see anyone who mocks others without having his/her own house in order - I get angry.

                            I thought KOS was better than this. Apparently the front page diarists would rather pitch electronics than cover the real news. Just like the MSM that the diarists are so quick to criticize for its failure to cover the real news.

                            When you hold yourself up as the ideal, you have very heavy responsibilities, and the front page diarists have been printing crap lately while they criticize others for printing crap.

                            Hypocrisy, just like Carnacki says.  

                            'Journalism is the new factory farm'

                            by the girl on Mon Dec 29, 2008 at 08:34:13 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Yep (3+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            odum, Jane Lew, the girl

                            There was confusion, and it created a pointless semantics argument. I'm willing to accept as much blame for that as anyone.

                            I recced you when I got back online this evening because it seemed clear from the rest of the thread that this story was personal for you; it is for me too, since I grew up in Knoxville and still have relatives in various spots in east Tennessee, although fortunately none (that I know of yet, at least) got hit. When I said the lack of attention the story was getting here was "noteworthy" I was trying very hard to be polite. If the ash continues to dry out over the next couple of days it'll become airborne. Given the raping of the EPA and other federal agencies under Bush and the state of the TVA I can't trust them to either contain that problem, or report it accurately if that does happen.

                            I am also trying very hard not to believe that the non-response is motivated by the fact that this happened in red state Tennessee, and that if it had happened in, for instance, shiny new blue state Colorado it would be getting the same (lack of) attention on DK.

                            A revolution is coming... whether we will it or not. We can affect its character; we cannot alter its inevitability. -- Robert F. Kennedy

                            by Anton Sirius on Mon Dec 29, 2008 at 09:08:12 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Glad to know you Anton (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Jane Lew

                            and I will keep your relatives in my thoughts, and hope for good things.

                            And yes, I am afraid of what the people near and far will endure in the future from this tragedy in Tennesee. I heard that idiot the other day on MSNBC telling people the water was safe to drink. I can't get it out of my head.

                            And I too, believe me, am disgusted with the mainstream media (I wrote a diary about the demise of journalism soon after the shoe-thrower had his breakdown) and I was so happy to find DailyKOS. I trusted that the beliefs here reflected mine.

                            I got severely disappointed over the past week or so. I just wrote a response to Scout Finch below about it.

                            Yea, it's the holidays, it's the holidays for the emergency response workers in Tennessee. For the people there who are now homeless, for the media the front page writers criticize so freely. It's also the holidays for the EPA employees, many of which are on the last days of their jobs, without a leader (not like they ever had one in Bush)  - if everyone gets a free pass because of the holidays, where does that leave us?

                            Oh, we can't do a diary on Tennessee because we worked hard this year and it's the holidays? If a reporter on CNN said that - can you imagine? Or FOX?

                            I am pretty passionate, and I am angry at DailyKOS for letting me down. But I'm still here and I'm screaming because I don't want to lose the integrity here. I don't come here to see the MSM mocked - I come here to see the MSM mocked and the truth reported here as well. Without them together DailyKOS becomes a joke itself.

                            If my son plays in traffic, I yell and warn him he could get hurt. I guide him back to a place where he needs to be. Why? Because I care.

                            Apparently so do you. Thanks new friend.

                            'Journalism is the new factory farm'

                            by the girl on Mon Dec 29, 2008 at 09:24:58 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

      •  Now Barbin has a FP diary (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Anton Sirius

        called SLOW NEWS DAY.

        Huh? There's nothing else going on in the world and while making fun of the MSM, Barbin actually recycles the MSM nonsense news into a front page article for us and holds himself up self-righteously as someone WITH news?

        Yea, there's nothing else in the world going on, way slow news day Barbin.

        HYPOCRISY.

        I think I'll take a couple days off from KOS. Way to frustrating here these days.

        'Journalism is the new factory farm'

        by the girl on Mon Dec 29, 2008 at 07:30:00 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  You know, it is the holiday season.... (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        the girl

        and many of us have spent an ungodly amount of hours working this year -- and  a few of us have actually been spending a little time away from the computer to see our families this week.

        It should in no way impede you or anybody else from writing on the subject.

        •  Holidays are fine (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Anton Sirius, Dems2004

          Maybe print a holiday "slow news cycle coming alert" or something - I am a journalist too. I've been through close to 30 Christmas holidays as one, as well as weekends, snowstorms, floods, power failures. I know skeleton crews.

          However, when DailyKOS mocks other journalists for not reporting real news or corrections, I take that seriously when KOS is printing pitches for electronics and prints no corrections.

          The Tennessee sludge story has been ignored. IGNORED here at Daily KOS by the front page authors. Why? Because of the holidays? What a perfect time for a news dump, or a sludge dump.

          You can't point out how slick politicians bury a story on a Friday or Christmas eve and then check out for the holidays yourselves, while laughing at the MSM for being duped.

          Take your holiday. You all do work hard, and we appreciate it, and you know what you are doing and you do it better than anyone.

          But know that if people start calling your hypocrits when you hold the MSM to a standard YOU don't meet, this is why.

          'Journalism is the new factory farm'

          by the girl on Mon Dec 29, 2008 at 08:55:16 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

    •  Out of curiosity, have you ever tried writing the (7+ / 0-)

      authors via the "contact" page?  I'm just wondering if corrections via comments are too easy for diary authors to overlook, whereas a direct message might cut through the clutter?  Obviously, that's not always possible with diarists, because many don't include email addresses in profiles.

      We must allow them to finish their terms. Then they can start their new "terms". -edscan

      by lineatus on Mon Dec 29, 2008 at 06:48:51 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  Hey, Carnacki. (22+ / 0-)

      I've been thinking I should send you an e-mail.  I've been missing you around here, and wondering what's up.  I guess this must be part of it.

      I hope you and yours are holding up OK.  You have been missed.  At least by me.

      "The river always wins" - Mark Twain

      by Land of Enchantment on Mon Dec 29, 2008 at 07:03:10 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  I hate to say this (17+ / 0-)

      But the list of FPers whose stuff I just skip over is growing.

      A revolution is coming... whether we will it or not. We can affect its character; we cannot alter its inevitability. -- Robert F. Kennedy

      by Anton Sirius on Mon Dec 29, 2008 at 07:16:27 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  Problem is... (11+ / 0-)

      I've seen Kos and other front pagers (even those at FDL or Taylor Marsh) print outright lies and be used for someone's propaganda purpose.  There's been outright smears against people--like the Hey John bull crap that Kos posted and never apologized or corrected. He became a part of the problem.  Or there's Taylor Marsh who used her site and cross-posted here, with a bunch of anti-Obama lies.

      The problem is, that some of the headliners here or at other sites now pride themselves on having access to political people or to media and now they are using the same tactics that the old media did.  Anything to keep access and self high profile.

      Thanks for writing this diary.  I've seen people nit-pic at spelling and grammar, but there's not enough holding Kos and front pagers to the same standard that we hold mainstream media to.

      •  In a Nutshell n/t (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Carnacki, Silence is Complicity
      •  Such a serious charge surely requires proof. (6+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        DBJ, IM, sadpanda, blueness, ppl can fly, k8dd8d

        I've seen Kos and other front pagers...print outright lies and be used for someone's propaganda purpose.

        Link, please?

        HR 676 - Health care reform we can believe in.

        by kck on Mon Dec 29, 2008 at 08:12:43 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  The website "Hey John" was a hoax. Kos frontpage (0+ / 0-)

          frontpaged it and then claimed victory.  Um..yeh.    I guess you had to see it to remember it.  And even then Kos wouldn't back down.  

          And I could name more from other sites, Like Taylor Marsh's lies against Obama.  But that is a different website.  

          Regarding other information about connections to politicos...that's their own words in their articles--when they feel like bragging or pretending to clue us in on stuff.  

        •  No. I'm not linking to all the different times (0+ / 0-)

          they've done that.  It'd take too long.  If you weren't there to remember it, then I don't need to waste my time digging up links.

          •  Weak answer. (4+ / 0-)

            You could at least mention one or two issues of significance where you feel there were serious distortions.

            "The extinction of the human race will come from its inability to EMOTIONALLY comprehend the exponential function." -- Edward Teller

            by lgmcp on Mon Dec 29, 2008 at 09:37:44 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

          •  Your charge about kos is a serious one... (0+ / 0-)

            ...implying that kos prints what he knows are lies. Without proof, it is slander and so ethically should be withheld.

            Everyone makes mistakes...given the volumes of content here I couldn't possibly keep track of kos's or his retractions. Sloppiness, bias - another "but of course" reaction...

            But you imply a nefarious intent with words like "outright", "used", and "propaganda" and so either prove it or your comment (right or wrong) is dishonest, a false empty charge.

            HR 676 - Health care reform we can believe in.

            by kck on Mon Dec 29, 2008 at 01:04:15 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  Two? (0+ / 0-)

              Hey John.

              Paid to blog for Howard Dean but didn't disclose his ties.

              •  "Hey John" is meaningless to me unless... (0+ / 0-)

                ...I do your research. The latter, old and settled issue, presents no "outright lies" or "propaganda".  

                "Tarring" comes to mind - painting weaknesses and mistakes as integrity issues.

                HR 676 - Health care reform we can believe in.

                by kck on Mon Dec 29, 2008 at 03:26:27 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  Whatever...Still stands... (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  kck, Jane Lew

                  If you decide that a witness deliberately lied about one thing, then you may chose whether the witness may be believed on other things.

                  My statement's stand.  Headliners know that they've f*cked up.  They merely chose not to correct and not to apologize.  And many of us are here to remember many times when Kos or his headliners did not make corrections.

                  So they need to show some courage, the same courage that they want regular media to have.

                  Yes, this site is partisan.  But if they ask for better from other media sources, then it's time they bite the bullet and right their wrongs.

                  PS  I don't really care whether YOU remember or know. KOS or DH in MI or others KNOW and that's what matters.  I hope they do the right thing from now on.

      •  Wow, Taylor Marsh, really? (0+ / 0-)

        Y'know, I've seen some questionable stuff on No Quarter, too. The Tubes are going down the tubes!

        We are caught in an inescapable network of mutuality, tied in a single garment of destiny. Whatever affects one directly, affects all indirectly.

        by dconrad on Mon Dec 29, 2008 at 04:22:24 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

    •  and I'm also sick of (20+ / 0-)

      the anti-union sentiment around these parts too. Often it's couched in very right wing talking points followed with comments about union members being racist, homophobic and un-educated. There are crappy elements in all groups, but the few homophobes, gun loving, choice hating, racist elements aren't any bigger among union members than in the general public.

      PS, I've been using your Labor Dog pic on my site. Rusty's just so cute; I just couldn't help myself.

      Early bird special ends 12/12 for the People's Inaugural Ball

      by Bendygirl on Mon Dec 29, 2008 at 07:39:24 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Anti-union sentiments, like anti-immigration ones (4+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        tmo, Bendygirl, Silverbird, gustynpip

        are not so very rare in the Democratic party.  I am surprised sometimes at the vehemence of nativist sentiments that I see expressed here sometimes, and not by such a small number of individuals either.  

        Fortunately the "who cares about the gays" strain is at least in retreat right now.  Timing is everything ...

        "The extinction of the human race will come from its inability to EMOTIONALLY comprehend the exponential function." -- Edward Teller

        by lgmcp on Mon Dec 29, 2008 at 09:40:05 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  ah yes (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          lgmcp

          the anti-immigrant strain, as if all of us weren't immigrants. My grandfather was an immigrant from Finland, an undocumented one. In fact, we think they came (the whole family) came over through Canada, but non one has ever been able to find how or when we came over, just that the family spoke Suomea (Finnish, written in Finnish) in the census. I always thought it was interesting that the woman who took the census wrote Suomea. Maybe, she spoke a little.

          Early bird special ends 12/12 for the People's Inaugural Ball

          by Bendygirl on Mon Dec 29, 2008 at 09:47:46 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

    •  The beauty of independent media (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      newfie53523, sadpanda, moosely2006

      is that they don't have to correct themselves. But rather be corrected by anyone with a voice.

      Does it matter if they choose to acknowledge their mistake when everyone knows about it non-the-less? Only if they value their credibility with their audience! The forum is more important than any one individual voice speaking. The wisdom of the audience is the gatekeeper on the Internets.

      Let's the debate and may the best man or woman win!

    •  Thanks for pointing out that WV wasn't (9+ / 0-)

      more racists than other states. I believe as many voted for Obama as did Kerry. Correct me if I'm wrong. :)

      The Appalachian error is almost funny. I think we've finally established that there are two Virginia's, but it seem we need to straighten up the  difference between Appalachia and the deep South.  

    •  I Stand By What I Wrote 100% (25+ / 0-)

      West Virginia has a Democratic Governor, two Democratic Senators, two of three Democratic members of Congress, and an overwhelmingly Democratic legislature.  It was seriously contested by Obama in the general.  Yet it went for McCain by 16 points.  Note that the McCain margin was WAY more than what Bush got in 2000 (when Gore was vilified for being anti-coal) and that Obama got less than Kerry did.  

      Furthermore, comparing the white vote here devoid of any context is dishonest or idiotic.  The fact is that the white vote for Obama was less than it was for Kerry or Gore.  That's the opposite trend of most of the rest of the country.  And it's also completely at odds with other votes by white West Virginians, who regularly vote Democrat up and down the ticket.  Thus, only comparing the white vote of West Virginia with, say, Utah or Idaho or Mississippi, while not noting that in those other states white voters don't vote Democrat for anything is dishonest or stupid.  

      Here's the reality you want to deny:  

      Finally, everything I wrote was about the primaries.  The fact that you fail to mention that reveals significant information about either your analytical capacities or your intellectual integrity, or more accurately, lack thereof.  

      For anyone who actually wants to make their own decisions about this bizarre obsession by carnacki, judge for yourself.  I'll do what carnacki doesn't have the integrity to do, which is provide links to all my posts about Appalachia:

      What To Watch For From the Potomac Primary Results (and Spin)

      Obama v Clinton: Maryland, Virginia and a Look Ahead

      PA, NC and KY Primary Polls, and the Question of Appalachia

      Democratic Primary Polls: PA, IN, NC and KY

      How Kentucky, West Virginia and Racism Could Screw Up the Clinton Exit

      How Kentucky, West Virginia and Racism Could Screw Up the Clinton Exit

      Appalachia's Last Chance to Show It Doesn't Have an Obama Problem

      Not only do I stand by what I wrote, I'm quite confident anyone who's not blinded be denial will see that I also stand vindicated.  

      "Dignified people, without a whimsical streak, almost never offer fresh insights, in economics or anywhere else." Paul Krugman

      by Dana Houle on Mon Dec 29, 2008 at 08:21:08 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  DHinMI (17+ / 0-)

        Speaking of denial, you think a map showing huge areas outside of Appalachia (just 30 of the 420 Appalachian counties trended more red) and that the same percentage of white vote in West Virginia as nationally "vindicated" you?

        You wrote that the people were too racist to vote for a black candidate. So the same percentage voting for John Kerry as voting for Barack Obama is because they were too racist to vote for John Kerry?

        So when white voters in Appalachia vote at the same level as white voters nationally, that means nothing to you? You see no need to correct your statements that the region was too racist to vote for a black candidate? By your logic, white voters nationally were too racist to vote for a black candidate.

        Your superficial analysis and stereotyping of Appalachia is what is apparent in your posts.

        There is nothing more deceptive than an obvious fact. S. Holmes

        by Carnacki on Mon Dec 29, 2008 at 08:28:43 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  I Linked to What I Wrote (6+ / 0-)

          I stand by it, and I encourage people to read what I wrote and make up their own minds.  

          And when white voters in Appalachia used to vote MORE Democratic than the rest of the country, and then they stop when a black man is at the top of the ticket, but continue to vote Democratic everywhere else on the ticket, it means something to me.  In fact, it means at least two things.  It means there's something going on about race.  And it means you'll put your fingers in your ears, close your eyes and lash out at people shining a light on reality.  

          But like I say, people can accept carnacki's characterizations of what I wrote, or they can do what I would expect of people at Daily Kos who consider themselves critical readers and thinkers, and they can read for themselves what I wrote, and make up their own minds.

          I'm confident about the conclusions they'll make.  And if you were confident, you would have including links to my posts.  That you failed to include even a single link shows both your lack of intellectual integrity and your fear that someone reading what I wrote will discover that you are being dishonest and have staked out an indefensible position that is blatantly wrong.  

          "Dignified people, without a whimsical streak, almost never offer fresh insights, in economics or anywhere else." Paul Krugman

          by Dana Houle on Mon Dec 29, 2008 at 08:34:10 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

        •  Look at Ohio on DHinMI's map (4+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Carnacki, dconrad, carllaw, Jane Lew

          One third of Ohio's counties are in Appalachia. Yet ALL of Appalachian Ohio went stronger for Obama than it did for Kerry. The only Ohio counties in which Kerry outperformed Obama were outside Appalachia.

          DHinMI consistently said that Ohio was a problem because of Appalachian racism. TOTALLY WRONG.

          And even now with the evidence plain he won't admit it.

          We'll sooner hear GW Bush admit his errors I think.

          •  Nope, Look Closer (4+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            GOTV, malharden, dconrad, Uberbah

            You're not noticing the gray colored counties, which includes almost all the counties along the Ohio river.  It doesn't refute what I asserted, it supports it.  

            "Dignified people, without a whimsical streak, almost never offer fresh insights, in economics or anywhere else." Paul Krugman

            by Dana Houle on Mon Dec 29, 2008 at 11:47:47 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  Sorry your ignorance is showing (3+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Carnacki, dconrad, Jane Lew

              Unfortunately those maps are not weighted by population. The few counties you mention are extremely rural with tiny populations. And the complicating factor in those few counties is that they are all in Ted Strickland's old congressional district, and Strickland pulled hard for Clinton -- nothing to do with racism.

              If you actually knew anything about this area, you'd know that Obama outperformed Kerry in Appalachian Ohio BY FAR counting votes. Every Appalachian population center -- Portsmouth, Chillicothe, Athens, Zanesville, etc... went stronger for Obama than for Kerry.

              It's totally absurd to claim otherwise.

              •  Sigh (3+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                GOTV, malharden, Uberbah

                OK, keep your fingers in your ear and your eyes closed and continue to argue against things I neither said nor implied.

                Funny, though, that Strickland also pulled hard for Obama.  Why does his old district only listen to him when he pulls for white candidates but not Black candidates?

                You offered that argument.  You try to figure it out.  

                "Dignified people, without a whimsical streak, almost never offer fresh insights, in economics or anywhere else." Paul Krugman

                by Dana Houle on Mon Dec 29, 2008 at 12:11:06 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

          •  Ohio (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            malharden, Uberbah, Jane Lew

            "Dignified people, without a whimsical streak, almost never offer fresh insights, in economics or anywhere else." Paul Krugman

            by Dana Houle on Mon Dec 29, 2008 at 12:03:48 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

          •  This is just plain inaccurate (0+ / 0-)

            here are the numbers, and Kerry performed better in 19 of 29 Appalachian counties in Ohio, and by 5,295 total votes.  So, there is no good reason for DH to retract or admit anything that you're demanding him to.

            In vino veritas

            by GOTV on Mon Dec 29, 2008 at 01:32:39 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

      •  Compare the Maps (10+ / 0-)

        This is a map I did with kossack meng bomim:

        Note the amazing symmetry between our map during the primary and the counties that shifted more Republican from 2004 to 2008.  It's pretty hard to not conclude that a significant segment of voters in concentrated swath of the country--a crescent from northern Appalachia down the spine of Appalachia in to northern Missippi and in to Arkansas, the Ozarks and Oklahoma--didn't much want to vote for Obama in either the primary or the general.  

        "Dignified people, without a whimsical streak, almost never offer fresh insights, in economics or anywhere else." Paul Krugman

        by Dana Houle on Mon Dec 29, 2008 at 08:28:45 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  DHinMI (13+ / 0-)

          You don't even know where Appalachia is.

          There is nothing more deceptive than an obvious fact. S. Holmes

          by Carnacki on Mon Dec 29, 2008 at 08:29:57 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  It's Defined in the Posts (8+ / 0-)

            The ones you were too afraid and dishonest to link.  The most detailed one is here, which includes this map from the federal government, which is of the Appalachian Regional Commission:

             

            "Dignified people, without a whimsical streak, almost never offer fresh insights, in economics or anywhere else." Paul Krugman

            by Dana Houle on Mon Dec 29, 2008 at 08:36:36 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  DHinMI (8+ / 0-)

              And look how much of that red is OUTSIDE of Appalachia.

              There is nothing more deceptive than an obvious fact. S. Holmes

              by Carnacki on Mon Dec 29, 2008 at 08:44:59 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  No, that IS Appalachia. (6+ / 0-)

                If you take the time to follow the links and read a bit further you'd see that.

                The Appalachian Region

                Appalachia, as defined in the legislation from which the Appalachian Regional Commission derives its authority, is a 205,000-square-mile region that follows the spine of the Appalachian Mountains from southern New York to northern Mississippi. It includes all of West Virginia and parts of 12 other states: Alabama, Georgia, Kentucky, Maryland, Mississippi, New York, North Carolina, Ohio, Pennsylvania, South Carolina, Tennessee, and Virginia.

                You are wrong, admit it.

                I understand there's some kind of upcoming political contest? -- Molly Ivans

                by brenda on Mon Dec 29, 2008 at 09:12:32 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  brenda (4+ / 0-)

                  My comment refers to how much of the New York Times map lies outside of the Appalachia map. Hope that clarifies.

                  There is nothing more deceptive than an obvious fact. S. Holmes

                  by Carnacki on Mon Dec 29, 2008 at 09:28:25 AM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  No it doesn't clarify (4+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    blueness, moosely2006, malharden, Uberbah

                    The blue and white map above is a map of the Appalachian Region. You say "look how much of that red is OUTSIDE of Appalachia" There is no red in that map. I assume that you mean the purple areas indicated in the map above the blue and white one?

                    I think you see the elongated grey area and are mistaking it for Appalachia and then saying "look how much of that red is OUTSIDE of Appalachia". You are misreading the map. If we superimposed the blue map that highlights the Appalachian Region over the purple and black map you would see that a good deal of that "red outside of Appalachia" is in fact inside of it.

                    Does that make sense?

                    I understand there's some kind of upcoming political contest? -- Molly Ivans

                    by brenda on Mon Dec 29, 2008 at 09:55:10 AM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  brenda (3+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      blueness, Predictor, CA Berkeley WV

                      The problem with too many windows open. I thought you were referring to the New York Times map, which shows the red counties. See, I can admit when I err.

                      There is nothing more deceptive than an obvious fact. S. Holmes

                      by Carnacki on Mon Dec 29, 2008 at 09:57:51 AM PST

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  It's clear from that map (2+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        moosely2006, Uberbah

                        that much of it includes the Appalachian Region plus a couple other southern states. DHinMI is correct.

                        I understand there's some kind of upcoming political contest? -- Molly Ivans

                        by brenda on Mon Dec 29, 2008 at 10:11:51 AM PST

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  brenda (4+ / 0-)

                          But he's not. 30 of 420 counties in Appalachia went more Republican. That means 390 did not. In addition, he placed it on racism, saying this region was too racist to vote for a black candidate. Obama got the same level among white voters here as he did nationally and as Kerry received in 2004.

                          There is nothing more deceptive than an obvious fact. S. Holmes

                          by Carnacki on Mon Dec 29, 2008 at 10:19:13 AM PST

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  Where do you get that? (3+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            sadpanda, malharden, Uberbah

                            "30 of 420 counties in Appalachia went more Republican"

                            What's your source?

                            I understand there's some kind of upcoming political contest? -- Molly Ivans

                            by brenda on Mon Dec 29, 2008 at 10:34:47 AM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  brenda (4+ / 0-)

                            See my comment elsewhere where I erred. I'll have the other number later, but it's about a third of the counties trended more Republican. At least I correct my errors and it doesn't disprove my point that most of those red counties that trended more Republican lie outside of Appalachia.

                            There is nothing more deceptive than an obvious fact. S. Holmes

                            by Carnacki on Mon Dec 29, 2008 at 11:04:04 AM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  DHinMI hasn't made any errors (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Uberbah

                            You have failed to demonstrate any. DHinMI has directly refuted you at several points in this diary and every time you resort to name calling while refusing to address the facts involved.

                            it doesn't disprove my point that most of those red counties that trended more Republican lie outside of Appalachia.

                            That's not the issue under discussion.

                            I understand there's some kind of upcoming political contest? -- Molly Ivans

                            by brenda on Mon Dec 29, 2008 at 11:09:52 AM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  brenda (4+ / 0-)

                            That's your opinion, but it doesn't make it correct. The outcome of the election with whites in West Virginia voting for Obama at the same level as they did nationally disproves his central point. That is the issue under discussion and just because a few of his sycophants refuse to acknowledge that central doesn't make you right.

                            There is nothing more deceptive than an obvious fact. S. Holmes

                            by Carnacki on Mon Dec 29, 2008 at 11:12:23 AM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  bzzzzzzzzzzzt! Wrong (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            malharden, Uberbah

                            The outcome of the election with whites in West Virginia voting for Obama at the same level as they did nationally disproves his central point.

                            West Virginia is not Appalachia. The general election is not the primary. As moosely2006 points out upthread, which you have conviently ignored:

                            you're accusing him of inaccuracy in one arena, but citing information from a completely different arena.

                            Methinks perhaps you need to correct that.

                            Hoist. Petard.

                            I understand there's some kind of upcoming political contest? -- Molly Ivans

                            by brenda on Mon Dec 29, 2008 at 11:29:01 AM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  west virginia (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Predictor, Jane Lew

                            the entire state of WV is in appalachia.

                            "Every Pootie is a masterpiece." - Da Vinci

                            by mdsiamese on Mon Dec 29, 2008 at 11:44:22 AM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  But it isn't (0+ / 0-)

                            the entire Appalachian Region.

                            I understand there's some kind of upcoming political contest? -- Molly Ivans

                            by brenda on Mon Dec 29, 2008 at 11:54:07 AM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  asdf (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Predictor

                            I don't believe I read any post where anyone said WV was the entire Appalachian region. It is being used as an example of the area to support a premise in an argument, not as the entire area.

                            "Every Pootie is a masterpiece." - Da Vinci

                            by mdsiamese on Mon Dec 29, 2008 at 11:57:47 AM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  mdsiamese (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Dems2004, Predictor

                            brenda is totally in the tank for DHinMI so is trying to confuse the issue. DH tried the dishonest line about the primary himself in one of his comments, but if you read his own posts it's clear he's not just referring to the primary. So there's the real hoist. petard.

                            There is nothing more deceptive than an obvious fact. S. Holmes

                            by Carnacki on Mon Dec 29, 2008 at 03:39:46 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

              •  Carnacki (6+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                MJB, IM, Nowhere Man, malharden, Uberbah, Predictor

                I understand the point you're making, but I think the reality is probably somewhere between your position and DHinMI's.  

                The above comment, for example, is one where you're going overboard.  The statement by DHinMI doesn't define the red area as "Appalachia"; he says (correctly) that it runs throughout Appalachia and continues into Arkansas and Oklahoma.  He ignores Louisiana, for some reason.

                Yes, DHinMI is probably being overly defensive about his own opinions, considering what appear to be fairly insignificant differences to be perhaps more meaningful than they actually are.  But it takes two to do this particular tango.

                The way to win is not to move to the right wing; the way to win is to move to the right policy. -- Nameless Soldier

                by N in Seattle on Mon Dec 29, 2008 at 09:27:10 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  N in Seattle (5+ / 0-)

                  30 of the 420 counties in Appalachia voted more Republican - are in the red - in the New York Times map.

                  His central point in post after post was Appalachians were too racist to vote for a black candidate. Not some. Not too many, but the entire segment.

                  He smeared an entire region. And the exit polls showed Obama had no more problem here than he did with white voters nationally. He won't even acknowledge he got that wrong.

                  There is nothing more deceptive than an obvious fact. S. Holmes

                  by Carnacki on Mon Dec 29, 2008 at 09:33:39 AM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Um... (3+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    malharden, Uberbah, brklyngrl

                    OK, I hesitate to step into a bee's nest here, but I count 41 counties in Appalachian Kentucky alone that trended more Republican in 2008 compared to 2004.  This is based on the ARC website's county list and the NYT results.  However, this certainly doesn't invalidate your point that the red regions on the map in question include more than just Appalachia.  You should double check me, but I just thought you'd like to know your numbers might be off.  

                    •  dreaminonempty (2+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      Predictor, CA Berkeley WV

                      I'll double check my numbers some point later - I'm not like DHinMI and will correct when I'm wrong - but I had counted the NY Times map almost two months ago and may have the number wrong - but you're right it doesn't invalidate that much of the map lies outside of Appalachia.

                      There is nothing more deceptive than an obvious fact. S. Holmes

                      by Carnacki on Mon Dec 29, 2008 at 10:27:37 AM PST

                      [ Parent ]

                    •  dreamingonempty (2+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      Predictor, CA Berkeley WV

                      I'll go over the numbers again, but it was roughly a third of the Appalachian counties on the New York Times map. That's where I must have got the thirty stuck in my head. Still the majority of the counties lie outside of Appalachia. So here's a correction of my earlier number - which is something DHinMI and other front pagers won't do and if I had put it in the diary I'd correct it there.

                      There is nothing more deceptive than an obvious fact. S. Holmes

                      by Carnacki on Mon Dec 29, 2008 at 10:39:44 AM PST

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  Another possibility (2+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        Carnacki, Alanna Trebond

                        It looks likeabout 20-25 Appalachian counties flipped from Dem winning to Republican winning between 2004 and 2008.  Perhaps you saw that number somewhere and it stuck in your head.

                        I know you'd correct it, that's why I bothered to bring it to your attention - I thought you might care.  :)

                        •  I actually do (4+ / 0-)

                          I've got to go to recycling and other errands and have to run now. But I'll look at it.

                          There is nothing more deceptive than an obvious fact. S. Holmes

                          by Carnacki on Mon Dec 29, 2008 at 10:58:01 AM PST

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  So... let me gets this straight (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            DHinMI, Uberbah

                            This whole thing - you accusing a front page writer of the serious charge of hypocrisy, all that is based on vague and half remembered figures and that you can't cite and that probably have nothing to do with the entire controversy.

                            Ok.... this isn't going to end well.

                            I understand there's some kind of upcoming political contest? -- Molly Ivans

                            by brenda on Mon Dec 29, 2008 at 11:14:20 AM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  brenda (3+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Dems2004, Predictor, CA Berkeley WV

                            Bullshit, brenda.

                            You can look at the exit polling data that is central to my diary in pointing out DHinMI's error see I quoted those numbers accurately about the 41 percent of the white vote in West Virginia being at the same level, 43 percent, as the white vote nationally. Me getting a number wrong in a comment that is a side issue to the main point is irrelevant to the main point.

                            There is nothing more deceptive than an obvious fact. S. Holmes

                            by Carnacki on Mon Dec 29, 2008 at 11:18:03 AM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  You have funny ideas (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Uberbah

                            about what words mean. 41 does not equal 43, as JohnKWilson points out far down thread. Which you ran away from. Which tells me something about the validity of your argument.

                            So is it your argument that racism is equal everywhere in the US and that the Appalachian Region is not "disinclined to vote for Obama"?

                            I understand there's some kind of upcoming political contest? -- Molly Ivans

                            by brenda on Mon Dec 29, 2008 at 11:37:27 AM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  brenda (4+ / 0-)

                            As someone else pointed out, calling them different is "pathetic." If that's the point you want to hang your hat on that DHinMI was correct, you're proving my point that personalities matter over facts here on this site.

                            My argument is that when front pagers err - and there are many examples in the comments beyond those in my diary - they are not corrected. Call it an error by omission on his part if you prefer, but his statement about West Virginia not being ready to vote for a black candidate was disproved by West Virginian voting at the same level - quibble if you want, there is no meaningful difference in the numbers - for John Kerry and whites nationally.

                            There is nothing more deceptive than an obvious fact. S. Holmes

                            by Carnacki on Mon Dec 29, 2008 at 11:44:54 AM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Opinion is not fact (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Uberbah

                            there is no meaningful difference in the numbers

                            Play all the semantic games you like. Your problem is twofold. First, the numbers do not show what you claim they do. Second, if it is really a matter of judgment on the significance of 41 vs 43 then it is a matter of opinion. Opinions cannot be right or wrong, hypocritical or otherwise. They simply are what they are.

                            In this case, DHinMI's opinion that the voting trends of the Appalachian Region indicate a reluctance to vote for a black man for president, or as he says "Appalachia has a bit of an Obama problem", is supported by the facts.

                            I understand there's some kind of upcoming political contest? -- Molly Ivans

                            by brenda on Mon Dec 29, 2008 at 12:03:12 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  brenda (3+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Dems2004, Predictor, Jane Lew

                            Sycophant all you want. I'm done discussing this with those who can't be reasoned with as you clearly are in the tank and don't care about facts.

                            There is nothing more deceptive than an obvious fact. S. Holmes

                            by Carnacki on Mon Dec 29, 2008 at 02:11:09 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Statistically insignificant? (5+ / 0-)

                            It seems to me there are a bunch of reasons why any particular person might vote for McCain/Palin over Obama/Biden and that it would be difficult to control all the variables to fully understand.

                            Examples of reasons why someone might vote for McCain/Palin over Obama/Biden.

                            I am not saying these are good reasons, but they are real reasons for a McCain/Palin vote other than racism.

                            1. I'm a conservative.
                            1. I believe our president should have served in the military.
                            1. I don't believe in abortion on demand.
                            1. I am afraid I will have my guns taken away from me if the Democrats get in.
                            1. McCain has more experience.
                            1. John McCain is a war hero.
                            1. I have known John McCain longer and I trust him.
                            1.  John McCain should have gotten the nomination the last time...it is his turn.
                            1. I like Sarah. The press has been unfair to her.
                            1. The Democrats are against a strong defense.
                            1. My taxes won't go up with Republicans.

                            Etc.

                            Why is there an assumption that the reason for a McCain/Palin vote over Obama/Biden is racist?

                          •  Jane Lew (3+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Dems2004, Predictor, Jane Lew

                            Because it fits their bigoted, preconceived notions about West Virginia?

                            There is nothing more deceptive than an obvious fact. S. Holmes

                            by Carnacki on Mon Dec 29, 2008 at 02:30:46 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Thank you for all you have done. (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Carnacki, Predictor

                            I just wish others would do what you have done so brilliantly...write about what you know...                   ;>D

                  •  carnacki (2+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    Uberbah, Predictor

                    I agree with the central premise of your diary about error corrections. However, an opinion is not a fact that needs to be corrected just because you disagree with it. DHinMI used some set of data to form an opinion. You see something else in that set of data. That does not make DHinMI wrong about factual data. He can draw whatever opinion he wants to from election results and polling.

                    I was born in Appalachia. I have relatives that live there, in fact I was just there for five days visiting for Christmas. My entire family is white, and of the 14 relatives I visited with over Christmas 12 voted for Obama. The other two voted for McCain because they always vote for whoever they think is pro-life (religious fanatics that they are). So I don't like that DHinMI smeared my home and my family as being racists since we so obviously are not, and I do not support his opinion in any way shape or form and am quite annoyed with it. But his opinion is not fact that needs to be corrected as a factual error would. He gets to have his opinions and express them, misguided as they are, and does not need to correct them to fit yours or mine.

                    "Every Pootie is a masterpiece." - Da Vinci

                    by mdsiamese on Mon Dec 29, 2008 at 11:52:17 AM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Dude (2+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      malharden, Uberbah

                      It's not "smearing your home" to say that race had a bigger effect on white voters there than it did elsewhere.  Nowhere did I say or imply that my generalizations applied to everyone.  I'm not a moron, nor do I think most of my readers are morons.  However, a phenomenon doesn't have to be universal to be significant.

                      And I'm from the Detroit area.  I'm not racist for saying it's one of the most racially charged places in America.  It's a fact that the Detroit area is one of the most racially segregated places in the country.  It would be naive and intellecually and politically idiotic to not acknowledge that race is a factor here.  But race isn't a factor only in the Detroit are.  And one of the places that it appears to be a significant factor is Appalachia.  

                      "Dignified people, without a whimsical streak, almost never offer fresh insights, in economics or anywhere else." Paul Krugman

                      by Dana Houle on Mon Dec 29, 2008 at 12:08:11 PM PST

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  wow (2+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        Predictor, o the umanity

                        I defend your right to your opinion, and you argue with me. That says a lot.

                        "Every Pootie is a masterpiece." - Da Vinci

                        by mdsiamese on Mon Dec 29, 2008 at 01:22:19 PM PST

                        [ Parent ]

                      •  But you did (3+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        Dems2004, Predictor, Jane Lew

                        Again, you didn't say some in Appalachia or too many in Appalachia. You said the entire region. Why are you so damned bull headed, so damned insecure as to admit that was wrong of you to do when you say it is wrong for others to generalize?

                        You didn't even say it was a significant faotor. You called it the factor. You wrote Appalachians weren't ready to vote for a black candidate. You don't even own up to your own words while claiming you stand 100 percent behind them.

                        God damn, DH you've been a real piece of shit throughout this.

                        This isn't some hot head saying this. This is coming from the guy whose done a lot for community building on this site through happy stories and top comments and countless other ways.

                        You fucking smeared an entire people as racist, including those of us who worked our asses off to elect Obama. And you never even bothered to look up black candidates elected from here before writing that statement.

                        There is nothing more deceptive than an obvious fact. S. Holmes

                        by Carnacki on Mon Dec 29, 2008 at 02:36:43 PM PST

                        [ Parent ]

                      •  You need to get to know us a little better. (1+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        Dems2004

                        Just because a particular group of white people voted for McCain/ Palin does not mean they voted against Obama/Biden because of racism.

                        Those of us who grew up in Appalachia have excellent reason not to trust people we do not know. Any person new to our community has to prove himself/herself a friend through actions not words. That is difficult in a short space of time.

                        We are very slow to commit, but when we do we are loyal to a fault.

                        The other thing to know about us is that we are stoic folks. We don't complain and we don't explain. For us it is bad form.

                        We are outsiders.

                        Knowing my community, Obama/Biden team the next time around has an great opportunity in WV. The thing Obama has going for him with us is that just like us, he is an outsider.

                        If he can get us working again, his picture will be right up there on the wall with JFK and FDR.

                        •  Riiiiiight (0+ / 0-)

                          And you all knew John Kerry much better than Barack Obama.

                          Thanks for your engagement with avoidance of data.  

                          "Dignified people, without a whimsical streak, almost never offer fresh insights, in economics or anywhere else." Paul Krugman

                          by Dana Houle on Mon Dec 29, 2008 at 03:07:25 PM PST

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  DHinMI (3+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Dems2004, Predictor, Jane Lew

                            You're the one avoiding the fact you wrote Appalachians weren't ready to vote for a black candidate when you didn't even know of black candidates who had been elected from here and that the outcome isn't different here than elsewhere among white voters.

                            There is nothing more deceptive than an obvious fact. S. Holmes

                            by Carnacki on Mon Dec 29, 2008 at 03:09:56 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •   Are John Kerry and Barak Obama exactly (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Predictor

                            the same except for race? Of course not.

                            For example: John Kerry did not have the Rev Wright millstone around his neck in Appalachia. Obama lost votes because of the endless loop of Wright saying: G-d damn America, G-d damn America, G-d damn America.

                            I thought I was holding out my hand to tell you about my people with the thought that perhaps if you opened your heart just a little we might find a little bit commonality.

                            You know nothing about me or my people, nor do you want to know.

                            You see what you want to see.

                            If I spoke about your ethnic group in the way you have spoken about mine, how would you react? I doubt if you would be as reasoned as Carnacki.

                            You seem to assert that there are no other reasons people might not prefer McCain/Palin over Obama/Biden besides racism. You may be able to show differences in the votes, but you have not shown the reason to be racism.

                    •  mdsiamese (2+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      Predictor, Jane Lew

                      Call it an error of omission then. The election results disproved the central point of his earlier posts and he didn't follow up on it. We want to hold Bill Kristol and Bill O'Reilly accountable for their opinions as being wrong, we should also hold up people on our side as well.

                      There is nothing more deceptive than an obvious fact. S. Holmes

                      by Carnacki on Mon Dec 29, 2008 at 02:32:24 PM PST

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  but that's just it (1+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        Predictor

                        someone's "opinion" isn't wrong just because we have a different "opinion". I don't want to hold Bill Kristol and Bill O'Reilly "accountable for their opinions as being wrong", I want to hold them accountable for being moronic talking heads who chase a paycheck by pandering to a small portion of the political spectrum rather than by being rational people who want intelligent discussion of issues from all points of view.

                        "Every Pootie is a masterpiece." - Da Vinci

                        by mdsiamese on Mon Dec 29, 2008 at 03:09:15 PM PST

                        [ Parent ]

            •  That doesn't include (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Predictor

              Arkansas or Louisiana or North Texas.

              Sprinkles make the cupcake, don't you think?

              by Lazar on Mon Dec 29, 2008 at 09:42:13 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

        •  DHinMI (6+ / 0-)

          The biggest issue was the reason you gave for the voting patterns, strongly implying it was due to racism and not demographics.

          (Even worse, you then claimed you didn't really say it was racism, but also wouldn't say you didn't not say it... making the discussion even less productive.)

          Answering "why" is what the part you still have not provided evidence of.

          Tarring a whole state and a whole region as racist is an ugly thing to say. You should not be surprised by the reaction. I'm still waiting for an apology.

      •  DHinMI (9+ / 0-)

        A good example of your lack of integrity and honesty. You wrote:

        and that Obama got less than Kerry did.

        Democratic voters for Obama 69 percent. Democratic voters for Kerry. 69 percent. Statewide Kerry 42 percent. Obama 41 percent.

        There is nothing more deceptive than an obvious fact. S. Holmes

        by Carnacki on Mon Dec 29, 2008 at 08:33:25 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  I'm with you. (5+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        DHinMI, theran, liberte, blueness, Uberbah

        To deny that white Democrats in Appalachia have a problem voting for a black guy is to be delusional.  And comparing the voting habits of white Dems with white Repubs in order to deny this, as the diarist does, is intellectually dishonest.

        Incidentally, I've read that McCain won the white vote overall by 12 percentage points, but that was largely due to his winning the white vote by 38 points in "the south".  In the rest of the country McCain and Obama equally split the white vote.  It may not be relevant to the discussion (WV isn't technically "the south" and election patterns in the general election don't relate much to those of a primary wrt race, etc), but since the diarist brought up the overall white vote stats in the GE, I thought I'd add some context to it.

        •  Escamillo (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          CA Berkeley WV

          Did you even read the diary? I've never denied race was a factor here. I've always said it's the same nationally and the numbers show support among whites was the same level here as nationally.

          White votes nationally 43 percent Obama.
          White votes WV 41 percent.

          There is nothing more deceptive than an obvious fact. S. Holmes

          by Carnacki on Mon Dec 29, 2008 at 09:54:29 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

      •  Obama got 41% of the white vote in West Virginia, (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Uberbah, condorcet, carllaw

        and only 39% of the white vote in Virginia.

        Sprinkles make the cupcake, don't you think?

        by Lazar on Mon Dec 29, 2008 at 09:44:45 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  I Rarely Agree with DHINMI But He's Right here (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        brenda, Uberbah

        The canard about "the White vote was the same as it was nationally," means nothing, because the "National" white vote was dragged down by racist states (like West Virginia).

        If you want a fair comparison, compare West Virginia's racial breakdown to that of similar sized states that Obama won.

        You're not disproving that WV was too racist to vote for Obama by pointing out that WV is less racist than Mississippi, which is all you're really doing.

      •  Not So Fast --You totally screwed up on Ohio (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Dems2004, CA Berkeley WV, Jane Lew

        You consistently lumped in southern Ohio with the rest of Appalachia and said all of Appalachia would be a problem because of racism. And I consistently corrected you, and you consistently said I was wrong.

        Well I have news for you. Obama won Ohio, and he won because he did significantly better than Kerry in APPALACHIAN Ohio.

        In my county, one of the poorest "white" counties in all of Appalachia, Kerry lost to Bush by about five times as much as Obama lost to McCain. (McCain won my county by only 170 votes out of about 12,000 cast.)

        So explain please how Obama did so much better than Kerry in this Appalachian region.

        Please.

        The fact is, you insist on pontificating about areas you know nothing about.

        •  I Stand By What I Wrote (4+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          GOTV, theran, malharden, Uberbah

          There are links and people can look at the data.  Most of the Appalachian counties of Ohio swung more Republican in 2008.  The reason Obama won Ohio was because of a surge of voters in the cities and because he significantly improved his margins in the Northeast quadrant of the state, roughly the area from Columbus west toward Indiana and north to Sandusky, including the counties on the Michigan border and most of the counties on the Indiana border.  

          Most of the counties on the Ohio River gave McCain a larger share of the vote than they had given Bush.  Other than Athens County (Ohio U), most of the region shifted away from Obama, at the same time as he was flipping the state from R to D.  

          So, you continue to be wrong, and I continue to be correct.  

          "Dignified people, without a whimsical streak, almost never offer fresh insights, in economics or anywhere else." Paul Krugman

          by Dana Houle on Mon Dec 29, 2008 at 11:39:48 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Look at your OWN friggin map (5+ / 0-)

            The counties in Ohio that went more red in 2008 were all OUTSIDE APPALACHIA.  Appalachian Ohio is a big swath of white on your map.

            You are totally wrong about it. I dare you to provide one shred of evidence that Appalachian Ohio went more for McCain than it did for Bush -- the whole idea is totally absurd.

            And the only single county in which you might have some case is Clermont, which despite being formally classified as Appalachian is, in fact, comprised of wealthy non-Appalachian suburbs.

            Most to the point, the poorest Appalachian counties showed the biggest gain for Obama over Kerry -- totally invalidating your argument.

        •  Actually, that's not true (0+ / 0-)

          In a year where the total poular vote in the country went up by about 7,000,000 voters, Obama actually drew less votes than Kerry did, by about 40,000.  The reason Obama won Ohio is because McCain under performed Bush by about 358,000.


          2004
          Bush   2,859,768

          Kerry   2,741,167

          2008

          McCain  2,501,855

          Obama   2,701,685


          Obama won Ohio because many more Republican voters stayed home.

          In vino veritas

          by GOTV on Mon Dec 29, 2008 at 12:00:43 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Erratum: (0+ / 0-)

            There's a slight error in the reported numbers (which I took from the dailykos scorboard site):  Obama's vote total for Ohio was 2,708,685, so he drew approximately 33,000 fewer votes than Kerry.   The point remains.

            In vino veritas

            by GOTV on Mon Dec 29, 2008 at 12:07:21 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  Those figures don't speak to Appalachian Ohio (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Dems2004

              where Obama outperformed Kerry by a large margin. Democrats also had some down-ticket problems in Ohio in 2008, for example Jean Schmidt's 8 point reelection and numerous Democratic corruption scandals around the state. So I don't think your numbers speak to relevant issues.

              •  These do, and what you say is still wrong (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                IM, malharden

                In the Ohio counties considered to be a part of Appalachia, Kerry still bettered Obama in 19 of 29 counties and, by my tally, 5,295 votes:


                Belmont   Kerry  17,576   Obama  15,986
                Carroll    Kerry  6,300    Obama 6,302
                Columbiana   Kerry 23,429   Obama 21,222
                Coshocton   Kerry 7,378   Obama  7,580
                Guernsey   Kerry 7,768   Obama 7,369
                Harrison   Kerry 3,780   Obama 3,495
                Holmes    Kerry 2,697   Obama 3,074
                Jefferson    Kerry 19,024   Obama  17,256
                Muskingum   Kerry  16,421   Obama  17,209
                Tuscarawas   Kerry 18,853   Obama 20,957
                Athens    Kerry  18,998    Obama 19,258
                Hocking  Kerry 6,175   Obama 6,083
                Meigs   Kerry  4,438   Obama 3990
                Monroe   Kerry  4,243   Obama 3623
                Morgan   Kerry 2,875   Obama 2,921
                Noble   Kerry 2,654  Obama 2,419
                Perry   Kerry 7,257   Obama 7,128
                Washington   Kerry 12,538   Obama 12,082
                Adams   Kerry 4,281   Obama  4,041
                Brown    Kerry 7,140   Obama  7,280
                Clermont   Kerry 25,887   Obama  30,124
                Gallia     Kerry 5,366  Obama 4,616
                Highland    Kerry 6,194  Obama  6,437
                Jackson    Kerry  5,700   Obama  5,108
                Lawrence   Kerry  12,120   Obama 10,956
                Pike   Kerry 5,989   Obama 5,833
                Ross   Kerry 13,978   Obama 13,636
                Scioto  Kerry 16,827   Obama 14,470
                Vinton  Kerry 2,651   Obama 2,405

                (County winner in bold)


                Again, this must all be looked at in the context of a large increase in overall turnout for Obama nationwide, but not in Ohio.  In fact, to remove Clermont County from Appalachia, as you argue above--where Obama enjoyed a 4,500 vote edge on Kerry--Kerry did better than Obama by almost 10,000 votes in Appalachia!  

                I don't know where your numbers come from, but these do not support your assertions.

                In vino veritas

                by GOTV on Mon Dec 29, 2008 at 01:24:52 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  What I see in those numbers (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Dems2004

                  is that Obama underperformed in all of OH-06, which is Strickland's old district, and especially in Strickland's home county of Scioto.

                  Everyplace outside that area, Obama outperformed Kerry. This is a very interesting result and itshows just how bad a hatchet job Strickland did on Obama during the primary.

                  Since I'm not in OH-06, I hadn't fully realized.

                  What it does NOT show is any pattern of racism. Only the people under Strickland's machine are racists?  There's just no racism pattern anywhere evident in those numbers.

                  •  Sheesh (3+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    GOTV, IM, malharden

                    It was Appalachia before Ted Strickland was born, and it will probably still be Appalchia after he dies.

                    Just like carnacki, afraid for some bizarre reason to accept reality, which means you'll never be able to effectively do anything to change it.  

                    "Dignified people, without a whimsical streak, almost never offer fresh insights, in economics or anywhere else." Paul Krugman

                    by Dana Houle on Mon Dec 29, 2008 at 02:42:54 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  it has NOTHING to do with Appalachia (3+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      Dems2004, Carnacki, Jane Lew

                      It has to do with with how machine politics work in poor rural areas.

                      Do you comprehend that before the primary Ted Strickland spent many months torpedoing Barack Obama on the good assumption that Clinton would have placed Ted Strickland on the ticket?

                      Do you not comprehend that Ohioans all assumed, because the newspapers told us, that it would be a Clinton-Strickland ticket?

                      And do you not comprehend that the Strickland machine people in his old home district totally bought into the "Torpedo Obama!" line?  They were the ones SPREADING the slanders about Obama being Muslim, etc.

                      Those same people were terrified that Obama would take retribution against Strickland for the hatchet job of the primaries.

                      THAT is what happened here.

                      NONE of it has anything to do with racism.

                      Sheesh, get a clue. Look at those Scioto County numbers.

                  •  What? (0+ / 0-)

                    Do you even read what you write yourself, or do you ignore that, too?  Previously, you pulled out of your ass the bullshit that Obama won Ohio on the strength of Obama's performance in Appalachia:

                    Well I have news for you. Obama won Ohio, and he won because he did significantly better than Kerry in APPALACHIAN Ohio.

                    Once you're directly refuted by actual numbers, you blame the reality on Strickland not being in the race, as though this somehow supports your original point.  Clearly, Obama quite seriously underperformed Kerry in Appalachia--let me repeat that: in Appalachia.  

                    Just admit it, pal: you pulled this shit out of your ass and tried to help the diarist with his vendetta.  

                    The facts don't back you up on this shit from your ass, either:

                    Everyplace outside that area, Obama outperformed Kerry.

                    Let's review:  Kerry outperformed Obama by about 33,000 votes statewide.  Kerry outperformed Obama by roughly 5,300 votes in the 29 Appalachian counties.  So, what can we deduce from this math fans?  Surely, it must be that Kerry outperformed Obama outside Appalachia by roughly 27,700 votes.  (In case you have trouble with story problems, 33,000 - 5,300 = 27,700.)

                    Now quit making shit up (especially in a diary that for its premise posits that there's just too damn much making shit up around here).  

                    In vino veritas

                    by GOTV on Mon Dec 29, 2008 at 03:16:22 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

    •  The Carnahan-Kennedy hypocrisy was (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      gustynpip, Bull Schmitt

      particularly egregious.  kos is for some political monarchies and against others.

      On December 8th he wrote this:

      This country isn't a monarchy

      I hate political dynasties. Hate them. But Jane is right, in this case, the idea is particularly egregious -- Caroline has done nothing to help beat back the right-wing machine. But now, she's supposed to be handed by fiat what others fight their whole lives to attain?

      Then on December 9, he wrote this glowing approval of the Carnahan dynasty in which he doesn't criticize the fact that Jean Carnahan was selected after Mel died.  

      MO-Sen: As expected, Bond (R) is in trouble

      Robin, of course, is a member of one of the top political families in Missouri. Her father, Mel, was governor, and defeated Sen. John Ashcroft at the polls in 2000 three weeks after dying on a plane crash. Jean Carnahan, Robin's mother, took over the seat (was selected) for two years, before being defeated at the poll in a 2002 special election by Jim Talent. (Talent was defeated in 2006 by Claire McCaskill.)

      Robin is currently secretary of state. Her performance in office and family name have added up to a potent political package, and given the large number of people who still have no opinion about her (mostly people who don't know she exists), she has a great deal of upside. Watch for the GOP to spend the next year trying to knock her down a peg or two in preparation for what will be another top-tier battle in the Show Me state. As for Carnahan, watch her to spend a great deal of time in these areas between Kansas City and St. Louis shoring up her numbers in rural Missouri. Compare the following maps:

      I did not see any clarification or apology regarding this blatant hypocrisy, did anyone else see one?

      There are so many political families in the US that have included appointments and selections, not to mention family members of various political "dynasties" winning on their own merit and/or cashing in on their famous names that singling out one family and banging the drum diary after diary reeks of hypocrisy when one or two families in particular are criticized and the others are given a pass.  

      •  If Caroline had been Sec of State and been in the (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Do Tell, malharden

        mix, then I don't think he would have a problem. It seems his issue with Caroline is she hasn't held ANY political office, been elected to nothing, and now is interested in a seat that many others are more eligible for like Nadler and Mosley, who have political experience.

        ... the prophet is a fool, the spiritual man is mad, for the multitude of thine iniquity, and the great hatred.

        by Tirge Caps on Mon Dec 29, 2008 at 04:19:11 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Neither did Jean Carnahan before being (0+ / 0-)

          appointed to her senate seat, but he glossed over that fact.  

          You can't be for some appointments and not for others.  You can't be for some political dynasties and not for others.  

          Robin Carnahan, like another famous daughter who won political office, Lisa Madigan, won office by campaigning, however no one can ever say that they would have won if not for their famous fathers.  

          In fact, Jean Carnaham was even less prepared for the Senate than Caroline is.  

          Jean Carnahan = Caroline Kennedy.  Robin Carnahan, like many others, traded in on her famous political family, which kos opposes, as he hates political dynasties when it is convenient.  

    •  Carnacki, the new media are produced by (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Carnacki

      an old model of being. They are called human beings, and one of their peculiarities is an assumption that righteous intent trumps meticulous accuracy, and advocacy excuses dishonesty. White people do it, black people do it, straight and non-straight, male and female and other, all ethnicities and (above all) all religions do it. As a species, we lie to make our point as naturally as breathing.

      I mostly love the people I meet here, fully as much as I loved those people I hung out with in the '60s, and for a similar reason; both groups were evolving mentally. But I have yet to meet anyone who has evolved beyond their prejudices to the point where they don't even manifest any.

      Most people don't even realize when their bias is influencing their pronouncements, and are therefore incapable of self-correction. It is easier for many of them, if they are called on their baggage, to claim or infer that their critics are picking nits with an agenda. In your case they'll say "well.. Carnacki is an Appalachian, so consider that the source of this complaint is oversensitive.."

      "Dialogue is good, sometimes even productive, but if you do not believe in equality, then you are not of this tribe." -swampus

      by davidincleveland on Mon Dec 29, 2008 at 12:22:13 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  I also remember there was lots of talk in the MSM (0+ / 0-)

      and here as well, talking about the FACT that Catholics wouldn't vote for Obama over Hillary (and then McCain) with racist undertones for the FACT.

      Then I remember seeing subsequent polling that showed there was no real difference between white Catholic Democrats and white Protestant Democrats in voting for Obama. And White Catholics were more likely to vote for Obama than white Evangelicals. The original numbers had more to do with the fact that there are fewer black Catholics, per capita.

      Of course the white, non religious and Jewish and Islamic voters were more likely to vote for Obama.

    •  Flawed analyses and opinions (0+ / 0-)
      are not the same as factual errors.

      This diary mostly cites examples of the former.

      As for the Appalachia issue, sure, I suppose that kind of thing should be corrected. But a little geographic ignorance is a very minor infraction.

      The diarist has a point - ideally, all factual errors should be corrected - but I think accusing front-pagers of 'hypocrisy' is a little over the top.

      "Great warrior!?" (laughs) "Wars not make one great." -Yoda

      by VictorLaszlo on Mon Dec 29, 2008 at 12:37:34 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  Sirota Made Him Do It ;-) n/t (0+ / 0-)

      "Salvation for a race, nation or class must come from within. Freedom is never granted; it is won. Justice is never given; it is exacted." A. Phillip Randolph

      by Savage on Mon Dec 29, 2008 at 02:55:34 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  The New York Times (23+ / 0-)

    runs multiple corrections every day, more than any other paper.  Smartasses might say this means they make more mistakes than other papers, but they don't.  It means they correct even their smallest mistakes.

    Don't tar them with the same brush; even with some famous fuckups, new media has a long way to go to reach the journalistic standards of the Times.

  •  It could be argued, although weakly, (7+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Garrett, raboof, fritzrth, Timroff, Fabian, RiaD, Do Tell

    that posts correcting diaries are there for the viewing, forever linked to the front page diaries with the errors.

    But I agree, this is hypocrisy and more than that, highly unprofessional.

    "One of the reasons we were all thrilled Tuesday night is it was pretty obvious this was a collectively intelligent decision." - Al Gore

    by Marcus Junius Brutus on Mon Dec 29, 2008 at 06:03:32 AM PST

  •  Hypocrisy? No. Fallibility? Yes. (15+ / 0-)

    The front page here is not a monolith.  You have to come up with a lot more than this to call Meteor Blades an hypocrite, in my opinion.

    But the front page writers make mistakes and wrong conclusions with some frequency, just like anybody else.  And you're quite right to point out the error here, especially when it concerns racism charged but not borne out in the polls.  I won't be holding my breath waiting for the writer singled out to make a correction, however.

    Our long national nightmare is almost over. Congratulations and blessings to all.

    by Dallasdoc on Mon Dec 29, 2008 at 06:04:35 AM PST

    •  Dallasdoc (21+ / 0-)

      I'd emailed Meteor Blades some time ago about the errors so he knows about them. We also had an exchange in the comments about front page errors. He told me to write up the post about the white vote. I did and just as I predicted it scrolled down the recent diary list.

      There is nothing more deceptive than an obvious fact. S. Holmes

      by Carnacki on Mon Dec 29, 2008 at 06:08:06 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  good point (5+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Dems2004, sadpanda, Matt Z, malharden, royce

      especially when it concerns racism charged but not borne out in the polls.  

      Now maybe I missed mea culpa. After the Prop 8 defeat, you and several other posters tore into black voters. Never saw an apology. If it exists, please point me to it.

      Thanks much.

      -7.38, -5.23 I'm celebrating Barack Obama's victory. Catch me with the protests after 01.20.09.

      by CocoaLove on Mon Dec 29, 2008 at 07:16:54 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  I tore into black voters? (0+ / 0-)

        I tore into black voters who voted for Prop. H8, which is an entirely different matter.  Besides bigotry, I criticized them for hypocrisy.  

        You didn't see an apology from me for that because I don't believe one was required.  I'm still waiting for an apology from Prop. H8 supporters, though.  I don't expect one from people annoyed at my criticism.

        Our long national nightmare is almost over. Congratulations and blessings to all.

        by Dallasdoc on Mon Dec 29, 2008 at 09:26:51 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  this comment (0+ / 0-)

          You don't make any distinction between supporters and opponents. I emphasized the comment to which I take issue here.

          Unfortunately, it's beside the point (5+ / 0-)

               Recommended by:
                   DigDug, KathleenM1, homogenius, banjolele, browneyes

               It's like the Hillary partisans trying to invalidate all criticism of her by tying it to the most over-the-top, sexist bullshit that appeared.  Or the supporters of Sarah Palin trying to pretend that all criticism of her was sexism or unfair treatment of her kids.

               Once again, how is criticism of AA voters for Prop. H8 racism, exactly?

               Our long national nightmare is almost over. Congratulations and blessings to all.

               by Dallasdoc on Fri Nov 07, 2008 at 11:10:47 PM EST

               [ Parent ]

          There are a lot of us who did not support that odious initiative. But we don't get any credit judging by your statement.

          I sent you an email hours after your post because I wanted to understand. Never got a response. This seemed to be a great opportunity to raise the issue.

          Again, I want to understand. Help me out.

          -7.38, -5.23 I'm celebrating Barack Obama's victory. Catch me with the protests after 01.20.09.

          by CocoaLove on Mon Dec 29, 2008 at 10:35:22 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  You're taking it out of context (0+ / 0-)

            The discussion was about AA voters who voted for Prop. H8.  In a thread it is usually unnecessary to append the same qualifying statement over and over again, because context is understood.  At no time have I ever criticized all AA voters or meant to, and to assert I did is a deliberate misreading.  

            Our long national nightmare is almost over. Congratulations and blessings to all.

            by Dallasdoc on Mon Dec 29, 2008 at 11:20:14 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  that was the purpose of my email (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Dems2004

              To get clarification from you. I read the statement, became concerned and sought out further information. How is that deliberately misreading?

              -7.38, -5.23 I'm celebrating Barack Obama's victory. Catch me with the protests after 01.20.09.

              by CocoaLove on Mon Dec 29, 2008 at 11:24:22 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  I missed your email (0+ / 0-)

                ... so sorry for not replying.  But as I recall the context of that discussion was clear, and did not include a blanket denunciation of AA voters.  Please see my reply to Brenda below for more context, if it's helpful.

                Our long national nightmare is almost over. Congratulations and blessings to all.

                by Dallasdoc on Mon Dec 29, 2008 at 11:26:55 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  the discussion was caustic, (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Dems2004

                  nearly to the point of being toxic, IMO. People were all over the place with thoughts and ideas, so context was muddy at best. There were several comments blaming black voters (in general) that went so far of the map that I made a mental note to put some people on permanent ignore.

                  Your comments were not the worst, but I became concerned enough to write via email. That was my first time becoming so concerned, which is why I remembered the thread.

                  -7.38, -5.23 I'm celebrating Barack Obama's victory. Catch me with the protests after 01.20.09.

                  by CocoaLove on Mon Dec 29, 2008 at 11:39:43 AM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  There was a lot of anger (0+ / 0-)

                    I hope my reply below frames my own feelings in a context you can understand.  I hope I hold no racist feelings, but neither do I feel especially inclined to excuse any voters who approved of Prop. H8.  

                    I certainly don't hold any community responsible in general, but prefer to focus on the actions of individuals and organizations which played a direct part in the Yes on H8 campaign, or who voted for the measure.  I would hope that most of us would feel the same way, once the anger of the moment passed and sober reflection returned.

                    Our long national nightmare is almost over. Congratulations and blessings to all.

                    by Dallasdoc on Mon Dec 29, 2008 at 11:48:19 AM PST

                    [ Parent ]

        •  You'll wait a long time then (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Dems2004, malharden

          Because it's you that owes the apology. Blacks did not vote for prop 8 in the manner that has been reported. Mostly by Fox News so you know how much to trust them.

          The truth is that older voters are the ones who supported prop 8. Blacks voted along with Whites and Latinos in similar patterns i.e. older more religious and conservative Blacks voted along with older more religious Whites and Latinos to approve prop 8.

          The meme that Blacks defeated prop 8 is a deliberate lie. It is propaganda that is intended to divide the left and set us at each others throats. It is working extremely well in that regard.

          I understand there's some kind of upcoming political contest? -- Molly Ivans

          by brenda on Mon Dec 29, 2008 at 11:03:54 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  It's not how many AA voters voted yes on H8 (0+ / 0-)

            The criticism is of those who did.  It is entirely analogous to the same criticism I'd level at gay racists, even though I don't believe they're anywhere near in the majority.

            It's bad enough to vote for a discriminatory initiative, but when you belong to a group that's been badly discriminated against and you vote for discrimination then hypocrisy is added to bigotry.  The color of one's skin doesn't enter into the matter, nor does age, religious affiliation or other qualifiers.  People who objected to such criticism have twisted themselves into pretzels to avoid the obvious point, but that point remains.

            Our long national nightmare is almost over. Congratulations and blessings to all.

            by Dallasdoc on Mon Dec 29, 2008 at 11:25:36 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  Why single them out? (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Dems2004, malharden

              Why single out older, Black, religious conservative voters from White and Latino voters of the same demographic? Smacks of racism to me.

              Since when was it your job to lecture Blacks anyway? Where is your criticism of Latino voters who voted in the same patterns as the older Blacks did?

              Typically, Blacks don't appreciate it when upper middle class whites lecture them on civil rights. Just a hint there.

              I understand there's some kind of upcoming political contest? -- Molly Ivans

              by brenda on Mon Dec 29, 2008 at 11:46:33 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  Why protect them from criticism (0+ / 0-)

                I'll happily criticize anyone who voted for Prop. H8.  It's the common feeling that it's somehow impermissible to criticize the AA community that singles them out.  

                I haven't found that anybody appreciates being criticized for bigotry.  Why single out blacks?  Smacks of racism to me....

                Our long national nightmare is almost over. Congratulations and blessings to all.

                by Dallasdoc on Mon Dec 29, 2008 at 04:02:31 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

    •  I don't believe anyone was called a hypocrite... (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Dems2004, Carnacki

      here. One does not have to be a full blown hypocrite to do hypocritical things from time to time (we're all guilty of it.)

      This was a critique (IMHO) and not a condemnation. I admire a lot of the front pagers here, but that is not to say that they are exempt from critique and criticism.

      :::::

      •  If you accuse someone of hypocrisy (0+ / 0-)

        you are calling them a hypocrite. And in this particular case the accusation is false.

        I understand there's some kind of upcoming political contest? -- Molly Ivans

        by brenda on Mon Dec 29, 2008 at 09:26:39 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  That is a binary argument. (0+ / 0-)

          People are more complex than that, or, I'd like to think so, anyway.

          :::

          •  Words have meanings (0+ / 0-)

            or they are useless. If I accuse you of hypocrisy I am implying that you are a hypocrite. If I accuse you of lying I am also calling you a liar. These are logical conclusions that flow from the definitions of the words used.

            I understand there's some kind of upcoming political contest? -- Molly Ivans

            by brenda on Mon Dec 29, 2008 at 10:08:09 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  People who are not liars lie. (0+ / 0-)

              People are not defined by one action or expression.

              For example, I still believe that your argument is binary; but it would be foolish of me to call you a binary person based on my one disagreement with you.

              I wouldn't have used the "H" word, personally, I think it takes a lot of persuasion out of what the diarist is trying to get across. However, It's his/her prerogative, and I set that part aside to gather my interpretation of what he/she was trying to express.

              :)

              ::::

              •  This is nonsense (0+ / 0-)

                For most people when you accuse someone of lying you are also attacking their character. You're playing semantic games with "One does not have to be a full blown hypocrite to do hypocritical things" or "People are not defined by one action". While it might be nice if people didn't judge others based on false charges of lying or hypocrisy it just ain't so.

                People have a right to defend their reputation from false attacks.

                I understand there's some kind of upcoming political contest? -- Molly Ivans

                by brenda on Mon Dec 29, 2008 at 10:54:42 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

              •  Are you a lawyer? (0+ / 0-)

                'cause you sure can parse with the best of 'em!

    •  i don't think carnacki is calling meteor blades (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Dems2004, gabriella

      an hypocrite, just cited MB's diary on this issue, and then specifically mentioned other FPs as being hypocrites.

      "Water and air, the two essential fluids on which all life depends, have become global garbage cans." -- Jacques Cousteau

      by Patriot Daily News Clearinghouse on Mon Dec 29, 2008 at 10:19:57 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  That ignorant narrative really ticked me off (27+ / 0-)

    at the time, and I'm a Yankee! ;)

    I'm glad you wrote this, Carnacki, and Cheers! to you :)

  •  Here is the thing. It isn't an error. (29+ / 0-)

    The Front Page of the Daily Kos is not really a newspaper frontpage, rather it is an editorial back page.  

    DHinMI, as he is often to do, was offering his opinion on West Virginia and Kentucky voters, in my view.  

    And as you point out, he was wrong.  Should he admit that he was wrong?  Perhaps, but it is less egrigous for an opinion writer to be wrong than a journalist in the New York Times.  

    So I do not share your outrage or view that it is hypocritical.

  •  Officialy Correcting and Opinion Piece (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    howd, Naniboujou

    since what You refer to here is invariably an opinion piece -- and often times, factual errors are corrected 'on the fly' or with Updates ... i am not honestly too sure what You are expecting ...

    i get what You are saying -- but i don't know what You are expecting

    "I want to keep them alive long enough that I can win them to Christ," - Rick Warren, Professional Greed Driven Scumbag

    by josephk on Mon Dec 29, 2008 at 06:06:42 AM PST

  •  Ben, let me quibble just a bit (11+ / 0-)

    there are parts of the 3 states you cite, particularly in AR and OK, whose residents are heavily descendent from the Appalachian whites commonly called Scotch-Irish, which is why sometimes for political and ethnographic reasons they are included as such.

    I might also note that I have heard a prominent elected official from West Virginia describe his constituents as too racist to vote for a Black man.  His words, not mine.

    Peace.

    do we still have a Republic and a Constitution if our elected officials will not stand up for them on our behalf?

    by teacherken on Mon Dec 29, 2008 at 06:07:15 AM PST

    •  teacherken (8+ / 0-)

      You rely too much on Jim Webb's book which teachers of Appalachian history find a good read but of dubious value in truly understanding the region.

      There is nothing more deceptive than an obvious fact. S. Holmes

      by Carnacki on Mon Dec 29, 2008 at 06:11:24 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  no, in this I am not relying on Webb (6+ / 0-)

        but rather on several other people who have studied the Scotch Irish, and who disagree with Webb on a number of items but not on this.  

        do we still have a Republic and a Constitution if our elected officials will not stand up for them on our behalf?

        by teacherken on Mon Dec 29, 2008 at 06:13:04 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Being half Scots Irish (5+ / 0-)

          ...first let me say, that the Scots Irish are no significant part Irish but mostly Highland Scots by way of Dublin and its Pale. Further not matter what any politician from some part of Appalachia said the Hill folk of Appalachia tend to value people on their merit that is to say what they can do rather than their race or religion. Hard life in the hills does that the world over.

          If one is interested in Appalachian history there is a book, long out of print but obtainable through inter library loan, titled "Our Southern Highlanders" written, I believe, by a man named Fox. He walked the Appalachian trails for over a third of his life collecting family names and histories, and recording the cultural aspects of the people who live there. All my father's people were with the exception of a Russian Jew and a couple of Indians were Scots Irish Appalachian folk. My father rose from that environment to become a deputy director of our largest intelligence agency...just another canny Scot with a tested IQ almost off the scale. Never underrate those folks or classy if them with out knowing them which is not easy.

          The Melungeon people of central Appalachia were of mixed race and managed to survive and get along with the Scots Irish Appalachians for a couple of hundred years as did the Cherokee who ran deeper into the hill to avoid Andy Jackson's "Trail of Tears."

          These people are a separate culture who distrust any outsiders who show no respect for their traditions and rules, but are less racist that a great many of their lowland and city slicker brethren.

          The remarks about their being racist offend me too.

          The young man who has not wept is a savage, and the old man who will not laugh is a fool. George Santayana

          by Bobjack23 on Mon Dec 29, 2008 at 10:17:55 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  I am not arguing on the issue of racism (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            moosely2006

            merely that some demographers would not consider it inappropriate to consider some parts particularly of AR and to a lesser degree OK Appalachian by background because of the prevalence of people of "Scotch-Irish" (do the quotes make it better?) descent.   Webb is not alone in making that assertion.

            do we still have a Republic and a Constitution if our elected officials will not stand up for them on our behalf?

            by teacherken on Mon Dec 29, 2008 at 10:31:12 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  Having been in both regions... (0+ / 0-)

              ...I find significant differences though I will agree there are Scots Irish people in the Ozarks. BTW, the book I mentioned might have been by a John Campbell it has been years since I read it was written in the early Twenties

              The following book will support your argument with important corrections on cultural differences (at least to the residents of the areas)

              Hillbilly by Anthony Harkins

              The young man who has not wept is a savage, and the old man who will not laugh is a fool. George Santayana

              by Bobjack23 on Mon Dec 29, 2008 at 11:01:07 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  PS (0+ / 0-)

                It was John Fox Jr. who wrote the book I referenced, John Campbell wrote a similar book in the same era. I read both authors and several others once upon a time when I was trying to confirm some hand me down stories/histories.

                The young man who has not wept is a savage, and the old man who will not laugh is a fool. George Santayana

                by Bobjack23 on Mon Dec 29, 2008 at 11:25:51 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  My Scotch Irish ancestors (0+ / 0-)

                  came to Kentucky in 1814.  I think we have been here long enough to be Americans; at least my vote is not influenced by national heritage.  Influenced by compassions for and afinity with the working class maybe, but not because of being from people who were Scotch Irish relatives 184 years ago.

                  ...do the elites...actually believe that society can be destroyed by anyone except those who lead them? - John Ralston Saul -

                  by Silverbird on Mon Dec 29, 2008 at 11:39:01 AM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Slow down a bit... (0+ / 0-)

                    ...at least my vote is not influenced by national heritage....

                    At Least?

                    I never said mine was nor was it if you are asking or think you are telling. As for being fond of ones cultural roots, your mileage may vary. What ever turns your crank suits me...for you.

                    The young man who has not wept is a savage, and the old man who will not laugh is a fool. George Santayana

                    by Bobjack23 on Mon Dec 29, 2008 at 11:45:48 AM PST

                    [ Parent ]

      •  also, you did not respond to my entire comment (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        moosely2006, Uberbah, cybrestrike

        including my interaction with the prominent elected

        do we still have a Republic and a Constitution if our elected officials will not stand up for them on our behalf?

        by teacherken on Mon Dec 29, 2008 at 06:13:51 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  teacherken (5+ / 0-)

          If he wrote it on the front page of DailyKos or another blog, he should state he was wrong. But your prominent elected official didn't.

          There is nothing more deceptive than an obvious fact. S. Holmes

          by Carnacki on Mon Dec 29, 2008 at 06:18:39 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

        •  teacherken (5+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Dems2004, Kidspeak, Unduna, carllaw, Jane Lew

          Anotherh part of your comment I didn't answer is about Appalachia. Appalachia is a specific term to 420 counties from New York to Alabama. Either specific words matter or they don't.

          There is nothing more deceptive than an obvious fact. S. Holmes

          by Carnacki on Mon Dec 29, 2008 at 07:59:49 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  geographically yes, but (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            moosely2006

            the cultural characteristics often travel when people migrate, which is the point however sloppily some people make.  

            Yes I am quite aware of the geographic area covered by the Appalachian Regional Commission, which seems to be how you are getting to those Counties.   And yet within that geographic region there are parts that are very different in culture, while there are counties in Arkansas that have more in common with some parts of the region.

            Am I defending DHinMI for the tenor of his remarks?  I am actually ignoring them.  I am talking about the impact of culture being carried with people when they move to another area.  

            Thus, there are parts of the Miami area that have far more in common with Brooklyn than they do with the rest of Florida, because they are so heavily populated with people who came South at some point, and not all to retire - my cousin moved to Miami to teach school, got married and raised her family there, and even her kids have traces of her Brooklyn accent, and she is now into her 70s, and they are late 40s at this point.  As to food patterns - they have picked up some Hispanic food preferences, but they still enjoy traditional deli and Eastern European Jewish foods.  

            We have probably beaten this as far as we can.  I am not sure we are in total disagreement.  Ethnographic similarity is not determinative - not all Blacks voted for Obama, and not all people of Appalachian descent voted against him.   But it can help in explaining some of the behaviors that we do see.  

            do we still have a Republic and a Constitution if our elected officials will not stand up for them on our behalf?

            by teacherken on Mon Dec 29, 2008 at 10:39:07 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

    •  Ken, re: (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Carnacki, Unduna, Jane Lew

      I might also note that I have heard a prominent elected official from West Virginia describe his constituents as too racist to vote for a Black man.  His words, not mine.

      Just because this local says it doesn't make it so.  It's an opinion or more accurately a guess as to what the demographic breakdown of voters would look like on election day.  I think it is important to interpret diaries (FP or other) that speak of a future event as opinion/best guess/prediction.      

      As we all recall, Ed Rendell said the same of Pennsylvanians and he was wrong.

      I think the problem with this particular issue is that the TM latched on to these statements and tried to make facts of opinions.  Instead of looking at a complex issue (why Obama had trouble connecting with voters in Appalachia) the media conflated the race issue and proceeded to flog it mercilessly.  I am sure that the TM is quite proud of the "frank" discussions on race that they fostered when really they only cheapened and squandered the opportunity given them to perform in depth analysis.

      -Peace

      •  Oh, I never said this official was correct (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        EmmaKY

        but this is someone important who to keep winning elections has to know the concerns and attitudes of constituents.  And in the primary Rendell was more right than he was wrong.  Obama after all still lost by about 10 points.  And at that point Rendell was trying to make an argument on behalf of Clinton, so he may have overstated the case.  The official from West Virginia was not making a case against Obama, merely stating a perception based on supposedly knowing constituent attitudes.

        do we still have a Republic and a Constitution if our elected officials will not stand up for them on our behalf?

        by teacherken on Mon Dec 29, 2008 at 10:41:33 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  teacherken (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          EmmaKY, CA Berkeley WV, Jane Lew

          I'd argue that when the MSM and places like Daily Kos keep repeating narratives, no matter how false, they become conventional wisdom and keep getting repeated even by people who know better. Take Nick Rahall, possibly your source since I know you met him. He's Arab American yet racism hasn't kept him from winning in landslides each cycle.

          There is nothing more deceptive than an obvious fact. S. Holmes

          by Carnacki on Mon Dec 29, 2008 at 10:45:20 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  my comment was the attitude of an elected (0+ / 0-)

            who believed his constituents were racist enough that Obama could not win them in a primary or a general, but who felt that it would be possible to lessen the margin of defeat:  in other words, not all irretrievable.

            On a separate note, Rahall may be an Arab, but he is also a Presbyterian, and does not look visibly different.

            I went through this with some of my elderly Jewish relatives in Brooklyn, who didn't understand how the black experience was different than the Jewish experience, where if you chose you could lose the Yiddish accent and mannerisms, even change your name and melt in to the larger society.  Here I am reminded of golfer Cory Pavin leaving Judaism for evangelical Christianity and some questioning at the time if it were for the reason of wanting to better fit in on the tour.  Note, again I am commenting about remarks at the time, not saying that I agree with them.

            And I think we do have to discuss this openly.  Clearly DHinMI was not alone in his attitude - look at a lot of the media narrative on the subject.  

            And also remember that there was a history of pitting poor whites against blacks in a divide and conquer strategy by the powerful, often from the coastal regions of those states with both coast and mountains.

            Today is our anniversary, Leaves is about to get home, and we are heading out, so I will have to abandon this discussion to others.

            Peace.

            do we still have a Republic and a Constitution if our elected officials will not stand up for them on our behalf?

            by teacherken on Mon Dec 29, 2008 at 11:08:51 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

        •  I hope I didn't sound like I was attacking you (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Carnacki

          because that was not my intent.

          Your contact in WV may not have had very many in depth discussions with his constituents about race, after all it is not an easy topic and I wouldn't step into that minefield with a prospective voter.  Your contact may well have heard things that gave him pause on the issue that led him to the belief that WV voters wouldn't vote for a Black man.  I don't know and I'm not knocking his assessment.  It's his.

          While Rendell may have been right about the primary it showed a lack of connection to his constituents' concerns.  While they may have preferred Hillary to Obama in the primary they still preferred a Democrat in the general.  Between the two, there was a preference in the state but that didn't mean they wouldn't vote for Obama in the General.  They clearly did and Rendell was IMO out of touch with his constituents.  He had every right to support Clinton and to advocate for her as the better candidate on the issues but his statement about racism seemed to play into a meme that wasn't being born out by the statistics.  I believe that he compared primary polling data and extrapolated it based only on Obama's race (an issue he believed to be a problem) to the general election.

          That this was elevated as fact by the TM just because he's had to run for election (as a white guy) in PA just doesn't track.  

          Again, I mean you no ill will with this. My problem is that one man's opinion was treated as the gospel.

          Your friend was right that WV wouldn't vote for Barack Obama but I'm not sure the reason is entirely racial.  The opportunity to discern what it is that WV wants from their national candidates is eroded when one person's assessment is simply accepted and no meaningful dialogue occurs.  

          Elevating race as the sole factor was an easy way to exclude the issues that WV residents face from the debate and to make the TMs job easier.  It was disappointing to watch everyone in the TM scratch their heads about the backwoods racist hicks.  We were a joke and a tool used by the TM to further their disunity meme to drive their ratings.  It denied the diversity of the Appalachian region.

          I posit that had Rendell and your friend not provided the tantalizing sound bites for the media that they wouldn't have in turn started turning over rocks to find those with extreme views on race to bolster these assertions.  How many people did they have to interview to get the statements that aired?  Did they ever find Appalachians who didn't represent this meme?  We wouldn't know from the coverage of the region.  Why couldn't Rendell and your acquaintance just say, "I think the people of WV/PA will vote the issues this year, that the Repulican Party doesn't share their concerns and that McCain represents the third Bush term."?  Why call constituents racist?  Again, I'm not ranting at you and apologize if it sounds that way.      

          •  don't worry, didn't view as an attack (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            EmmaKY

            and person is an acquaintance, not exactly a friend.  One makes a lot of acquaintances in politics, and many never go beyond that level.

            My mentioning of the remark was in response to Carnacki that it was not just outsiders who had that perception, rightly or wrongly.  

            Peace.

            do we still have a Republic and a Constitution if our elected officials will not stand up for them on our behalf?

            by teacherken on Mon Dec 29, 2008 at 05:49:50 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

  •  Has anyone else felt that the front page of DKos (8+ / 0-)

    over the last two days has been incredibly trivial, with its head buried deep in the sand?

    We're shocked by a naked nipple, but not by naked aggression.

    by Lepanto on Mon Dec 29, 2008 at 06:08:24 AM PST

  •  I think that you are (5+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    bronte17, Unduna, Little, JesseCW, NYWheeler

    half right on this one:

    The following should be corrected as they constitute straight forward factual errors:

    Then we had front pagers routinely refer to red counties that included Texas, Oklahoma, Arkansas and other areas not in Appalachia as Appalachian (here's just one example).

    But the I think that x constituency won't vote for y candidate because they are racist type statements shouldn't require correction as they are obviously predictive and therefore subjective. Ill advised and insensitive for sure but that is not the criteria here.

    Taken to a logically absurd level demanding apologies for these statements would, in effect, mean that everyone who makes a wrong prediction would have to publically apologise even if there were solid grounds for the prediction.

    An aside - in the UK if the threshold for an apology is reached it has to have the same prominence as the factually incorrect article i.e. it cannot be buried.  

    •  If it were your ethnic group wrongly accused of (5+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Margot, Radical Faith, triv33, wvablue, carllaw

      racism, would you not object?

      The MSN has not learned. Every election they repeat the same nonsense about racism in Appalachia. The next election cycle the MSN will repeat their racist story line about how backward Appalachia hates everyone.  The next time it may be about Catholics, Jews, Muslims, Italians, Blacks, Mexicans, Chinese...fill in the blank...it is always the same wrong assumption.

      It goes on and on and for us mountain williams it is quite tiresome.

      •  Bigotry against Southerners: (6+ / 0-)

        the last acceptable American bigotry. Everything else is called 'bigotry', but to hate the Southerner is called 'justified'.

        It's gonna be our real last stand.  The day the Dems start really asking us for our vote, really, truly asking us for our vote and giving a damn about getting it, the day they stop making stupid ass excuses for not fighting for us as well, will be a day of huge victory for the entire damn country.

        "In all chaos there is a cosmos, in all disorder, a secret order." Carl Jung

        by Unduna on Mon Dec 29, 2008 at 09:31:33 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

  •  Yawn. (14+ / 0-)

    Here's DH's original piece, which you couldn't bother to link to.  He was right -- Obama did underperform in Appalachia compared to the rest of the country, in both the primary and the general -- or did I miss the WV primary and KY primary exit polls?  

    In the general, McCain had 28% of the Democratic vote in WV (and 29% of the white Democratic vote), compared to 10% and 14% nationally.  That says all.

    •  Villagers (23+ / 0-)

      Ah yes, the new media's villagers, rallying round each other.

      The exit polls for the white vote were the same in WV as nationally. So your "that says it all" says nothing to racism but to party loyalty.

      There is nothing more deceptive than an obvious fact. S. Holmes

      by Carnacki on Mon Dec 29, 2008 at 06:13:49 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  "The White Vote". (6+ / 0-)

        That's because WV has disproportionately fewer Republicans -- while America was 39/32 D/R this year, WV was 48/34.  

        To what do you attribute Obama's massive underperformance among white Democrats in WV compared to other states?

      •  More Data (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        TFinSF

        National:

        Party by race
        Category Obama McCain % Total

        White Democrats 85 14 23
        White Independents 47 49 23
        White Republicans 8 91 29

        WV:

        Party by race
        Category Obama McCain % Total

        White Democrats 69 29 44
        White Independents 36 60 17
        White Republicans 7 92 33

        •  I don't think that proves... (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Carnacki, Clem Yeobright, Jane Lew

          ...that people in WV are more racist.

          There are plenty of people who still have issues with racism who voted for Obama.

        •  Adam (5+ / 0-)

          69 percent Ds voted for Kerry - proof West Virginians were too racist to vote for him?

          There is nothing more deceptive than an obvious fact. S. Holmes

          by Carnacki on Mon Dec 29, 2008 at 06:40:56 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  It does seem to show that the numbers arn't right (0+ / 0-)

            unless there are significantly more Democrats than nationally (I don't have Adam's numbers).

          •  It could be (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            howd

            Not saying it is, just saying it could be, because there's lots of racists who won't vote for any national Dem because the national Dems are considered in the pocket for lazy, shiftless, Black people. Racism has been at least one reason why people vote Republican since the late Sixties.

            Trust me on this one, this phenomenon completely explains my father (who lives nowhere near West Virginia :)).

            What do you call a parent that believes in abstinence only sex ed? A Grandparent.

            by ChurchofBruce on Mon Dec 29, 2008 at 06:48:07 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  ChurchofBruce (10+ / 0-)

              Yes, but my point is party ID was irrelevant to what DHinMI wrote. He said West Virginians were too racist to vote for a black candidate. Now unless he wants to now say white people nationally were too racist to vote for a black candidate, then he needs to step back and apologize to the people and correct his earlier hateful words.

              I'll say this, basing racist intent off a person's vote as DHinMI argued is the wrong way to do it. I split wood yesterday with a man I go to church with. I've spent many hours working on cars and other labor with him. There's not a racist bone in his body and he voted for John McCain. I think the key factor here was the evangelical vote going to McCain on the abortion issue. That might change with familiarity of Obama in 2012.

              But that's different than what DHinMI stated when he went on about racism.

              There is nothing more deceptive than an obvious fact. S. Holmes

              by Carnacki on Mon Dec 29, 2008 at 06:54:08 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  Your first paragraph (0+ / 0-)

                I completely agree with. Though that's a different argument than comparing Kerry's results in WV to Obama's results. All I was saying is that some white people (not just in WV, but everywhere) could vote against Kerry and against Obama for the same exact racist impulse even though Kerry isn't black. That's far different that trying to separate Appalachia as some sort of bastion of racism, which is what DHinMI tried to do. I am proud of living in MA, a state with half (6%) of the national percentage of black people that still voted for a black Governor even before Obama came along. But there's plenty of racists here, too (witness my father, for one). I do believe that there are people, nationwide that vote Repub for racist reasons.

                And, yes, there are lots of reasons to vote Repub that have nothing to do with racism, including abortion (though I'd say there's at least some sexism in that one, but that's a whole 'nother diary :)).

                What do you call a parent that believes in abstinence only sex ed? A Grandparent.

                by ChurchofBruce on Mon Dec 29, 2008 at 07:08:36 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

              •  Carnaki, I remember that time very clearly (3+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Terri, Miss Blue, IM

                The CW was that Obama was gonna get shellacked in Appalachia. We were watching videos of WV locals talking about how frightened they were of our candidate, that they were scared he would "seek revenge" on whites, all kinds of crazy stuff. The polling for Obama was dismal, and I for one was very surprised by how well Obama ultimately did there.

                The item by DHinMI was an accurate read of what most people were thinking about the race and it aligned with polling and interview data. So to be fair, it would have been odd for him to write that "while all indications are that Obama will do poorly in WV, I think they will surprise and ultimately break for Obama."

                That would have been more accurate, but it would have been strange, too. So I'm not sure exactly what you want here.

                Every day's another chance to stick it to The Man. - dls.

                by The Raven on Mon Dec 29, 2008 at 07:18:49 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  The Raven (10+ / 0-)

                  If we've learned nothing from the past 8 years, it's that the media will find people to fit their preconceived narrative. I could go into Vermont and find people to say equally egregious things about blacks and Muslims.

                  There were many factors why Obama did poorly in WV primary, not the least of which is Clinton campaigned hard here and Obama was pretty much a no-show. The grassroots people worked hard but the paid staff we received were third team at best. We got two visits, including a perfunctory one the day before the primary.

                  That also killed us in the general election. Many of the hardwork grassroots people decided since Obama wasn't going to fight for the state, why should they bother? It became a self fullfilling prophecy.

                  There is nothing more deceptive than an obvious fact. S. Holmes

                  by Carnacki on Mon Dec 29, 2008 at 07:33:51 AM PST

                  [ Parent ]

      •  I hate to be petty (15+ / 0-)

        But I have noticed then whenever DhinMI launches into one of his Armando imitations about the only ones who defend or uprate him are the front pagers. It doesn't surprise me to see it happen in this context either. It's worth noting that when DHinMI believes someone has made a factual error or disagrees with their opinion he will often hound them mercilessly.

        I guess the bottom line is that this is human nature and no matter where you go, traditional media, Redstate, or Dkos, there will always be a certain element of this occurring. Maybe that should be the signal to a front pager that it is time to move on and give someone who is a bit more humble a shot.

        Don't get me wrong, Armando was very intelligent, but it was overshadowed by his bullying. He didn't try to persuade, he bludgeoned. And he wasn't content to have his say, he harped to the point of hijacking threads. He was very, very abusive to members of this community at times and was NEVER held accountable for it.

        Bullying and thread disruption are no substitute for rational discourse and debate, and if a factual error is pointed out it should be corrected. It has a direct impact on the credibility of this site. As Markos is fond of pointing out - we are supposed to be a reality based community. I sincerely hope that ideal is not falling by the wayside here.

    •  Adam B (4+ / 0-)

      BTW, you're showing how false narratives take root and become conventional wisdom, in DC and the blogosphere.

      There is nothing more deceptive than an obvious fact. S. Holmes

      by Carnacki on Mon Dec 29, 2008 at 06:24:49 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  Heaven forbid he criticize something that (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      andydoubtless, CA Berkeley WV

      the front pagers did! /snark

    •  I see your Yawn and raise you a yawn. (6+ / 0-)

      In the general, McCain had 28% of the Democratic vote in WV (and 29% of the white Democratic vote), compared to 10% and 14% nationally.  That says all.

      Actually, that says virtually nothing.  Registered Democrats outnumber registered Republicans in WV nearly 2:1. Furthermore, registered Independents are less than 50% of the national average. In other words, many members of the WV Democratic Party would likely not be Democrats if they lived elsewhere. So the fact that the WV dems had a higher defection rate in 2008 than the national average is simply a result of the fact that Democrats possess an artificially high percent of the registrations. The only number that matters is the author's:

      National
      Vote by race
      White voters 43 percent Obama

      West Virginia
      Vote by race
      White voters 41 percent Obama

      Unless you can dispute that, you've got no conclusive argument. The author wins.

      Gentlemen, you can't fight in here! This is the War Room!

      by bigtimecynic on Mon Dec 29, 2008 at 06:33:01 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  Adam, with all due respect . . . (34+ / 0-)

      to you as well as to the intellectual mettle of everyone who reads and writes on Daily Kos, it would be very, very refreshing indeed if only one time, when one FP writer is challenged, that all the others don't immediately post forgive me, a rather rude, "yawn" and go on to a lengthy defense of said person.

      Is it possible, that there are ever any legitimate questions about anything anyone writes on the left side of Daily Kos? Or is it all uniformly flawless and perfect?

      Remember John McCain's yellow teeth or something along those lines.

      We all make mistakes. I do. We all become overwrought with passion and confuse (willfully or not), fact for opinion. I'm sure I'm not alone in doing this.

      •  See above (13+ / 0-)

        Carnacki provided more data.  I now see where he's coming from.

      •  does that include making sweeping comments (4+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        IM, Uberbah, royce, TFinSF

        About the front pagers being hypocrites? Or claims that FP's never correct their pieces?

        "Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies." - Groucho Marx

        by Greg Dworkin on Mon Dec 29, 2008 at 07:22:28 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Dem, are you referring to my comment . . . (5+ / 0-)

          or Carnaki's diary?

          I don't expect you're inclined to agree with me, especially if you take objection, as is your right, of course, with my comment.

          Oh well. Happy and healthly 2009 to all. I knew I shouldn't have waded into such a minefield.

          •  And that (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            nyceve

            is a shame. Everyone should be able to discuss this without drawing sides.

            And, just because, I see where Adam understands Carnacki's point, but still insisted in his first comment that it was (IMO) boring complaints (yawn).

            It would be nice to see someone like Adam also retract his cynicism about any complaints.

          •  your comment suggests that (4+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            nyceve, IM, moosely2006, malharden

            FPs immediately "gang tackle" criticism of the FP. Well, it sorta depends what the criticism is. If someone suggests, as Carnacki did, that FPs routinely don''t correct factual mistakes and that they are, as a group, hypocrites, I imagine many/any of the FPs might wish to respond to it (and sooner rather than later).

            For the most part, corrections take place within the offending post. And, of course, we are talking about corrections of fact and not corrections of opinion.

            I read and respond to all the comments in my posts, on a routine basis and I correct whatever factual errors I find (or are pointed out to me and credit/link the commenter and I can give examples), so I was semi-turned off by Carnacki's post (he's got the right to post it, but it seemed pretty dumb to me to move from a specific point about W VA to "all FP's are hypocrites" or "no FP corrects facts". I really don't care if he's got a bug up his ass about DHinMI or not; that's a separate issue.)

            In any case, there's an open invitation to post factual corrections in comments, as we have always done. It's true that if you post said correction in some open thread somewhere I (or the author) might not see it.

            if it's opinion, and you demnd people agree with you, good luck with that. ;-)

            Have a healthy and happy New year, eve.

            "Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies." - Groucho Marx

            by Greg Dworkin on Mon Dec 29, 2008 at 09:45:56 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  All good health to you too, DemFromCT . . . (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Dems2004, Glinda

              I think Jeffrey Feldman made an interesting point about corrections in comments, which others said, are not read by many.

              I don't know, I should have avoided this entire discussion like the plague, but I didn't--stupid me--so here we are.

            •  You should care (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Carnacki, CA Berkeley WV

              I really don't care if he's got a bug up his ass about DHinMI or not; that's a separate issue.

              His behavior on this site, and bullying, should be of a concern of all the editors. It reflects badly on this place, just as Armando's behavior did.

              A little more humility and thought would really help your answer here.

              •  Define Bullying (0+ / 0-)

                Did I punch someone?  Doesn't one have to be bigger and stronger than whomever they're bullying?

                Is it that I simply know more and have stronger arguments and use them to refute people with more vigor than you like?  Or is it just silly and childish to complain that I'm a "bully?"  

                "Dignified people, without a whimsical streak, almost never offer fresh insights, in economics or anywhere else." Paul Krugman

                by Dana Houle on Mon Dec 29, 2008 at 12:21:27 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  Dana (5+ / 0-)

                  How tall are you? How much do you weigh?

                  Yes, you do use rhetorical punches to express yourself, this post I am responding to being a mild example.

                  Bullying is in the eyes of the beholder, and you are one, in my opinion.

                  Yeah, for all your education and intelligence, you still can't have a discussion without insulting someone.

                  Oh, by the way 'vigor' is not defined as being a flaming jerk. I would ask you to examine yourself and find out whether you are satisfied how you interact with people, even those whom you see as being 'below your station'.

                  •  Ah, One of the Cutsey Types... (1+ / 1-)
                    Recommended by:
                    blueness
                    Hidden by:
                    Dems2004

                    ...who wants to use my name.

                    How juvenile.

                    As for things being in the eyes of the beholder, that's a horseshit claim.  It allows someone to say whatever they want about other people, and then hide behind a dishonest ploy that they're allowed to say whatever they want if it's true in their eyes, and they never have to back up their accusations.  

                    Really what happened here is you made a claim about me, I called you on it, and you cried that I was a bully.  I'm not a bully.  But you're a whiner who can dish it out but can't take it.

                    If you can't stand up and defend your bullshit opinions, maybe you should think about being more careful about how you express yourself instead of complaining that it's uncomfortable when you're called on your bullshit.  

                    "Dignified people, without a whimsical streak, almost never offer fresh insights, in economics or anywhere else." Paul Krugman

                    by Dana Houle on Mon Dec 29, 2008 at 02:12:50 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Look it up Dana (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      Carnacki

                      Because since you continue to call names to me, I will continue to use your name. It is your name, is it not?

                      I am standing right here having an unproductive discussion with you, is that not standing up for what I think is right?

                      I suppose you could tell me now that since I decide to call you on your behavior, that it means I am a whiner, but don't tell me I can't take but can only dish it out. I, on the other hand, can say that I think you are a sad, angry person with a holier-than-thou complex. It's not very becoming.

                      From the other day you called me a dumb scumbag, does that further any rational discourse? You objected to me using your god given name in that shitfest too.

                      You can call me on anything you want, it is your right. But don't be intellectually dishonest in doing so.

                      Now, don't you have some furniture to move or something on the hill? They are waiting for your treasured insight into all things everywhere, over there where you 'work'.

                      Quit being someone who can only call names and not make substantial arguments.

                      Respond if you wish, but I expect more foolish invective to try making me lose my cool.

                      Look in the mirror.

                      PS: I HR'd you because you are an insufferable, serial name caller. Merry fucking Christmas.

                      •  Ahhh, You Show Your Fine Character... (0+ / 0-)

                        ...by troll rating me.

                        And thanks for reminding me of this:

                        And I can't make up my mind if you are merely sick (ill), or pathological.

                        People who accuse people with whom they disagree of being mentally ill are scumbags.  People who can't understand why that's offensive and then characterize it as "rational discourse" are dumb...unless they're simply liars.  

                        Thus, the charge was not only accurate, but deserved.  

                        There, now, troll rate me again and show that you're also a petulant, silly and trivial person as well.  

                        "Dignified people, without a whimsical streak, almost never offer fresh insights, in economics or anywhere else." Paul Krugman

                        by Dana Houle on Mon Dec 29, 2008 at 03:12:42 PM PST

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  Yeah (2+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          Carnacki, o the umanity

                          because everyone enjoys being called a dumb scumbag.

                          Thanks for never addressing any points, and always calling more names.

                          FWIW, I never called you mentally ill, and I even offered that since I am mentally ill, I should recognize it.

                          I said I couldn't make up my mind. You are hilarious in your flailing.

                          •  he spends a lot more energy flailing (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Dems2004, On The Bus

                            than he would spend if he'd just learn how to quit being such a coward.

                            He deserves to be called names--and he deserves to be called out repeatedly, in front of witnesses, until one of the REAL site admins around here does the FP a favor and takes his byline away. He abuses his status on this site, IMO, by intimidating posters he doesn't like with "I am a site admin", insinuating he'll get them in trouble if they don't back off whatever his pet position is at any given time.

                            I've seen this at least twice now, and I've linked to it once in these comments. He should consider being a bit more careful about abusing this position, before someone diaries on it specifically. Because someone is going to, and it's not going to be pretty, especially if the site owners continue to look the other way on this.  

                            I'm not an anarchist, but it would be good if people started realizing the difference between political propaganda and the truth. --John Lennon

                            by o the umanity on Tue Dec 30, 2008 at 06:00:18 AM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  I couldn't agree (0+ / 0-)

                            more.

                            Although the other CE in this very diary seems to have no problem with it whatsoever.

              •  thanks for the advice (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Dems2004

                but I will go with the logic of DHinMI's argument and the data he's presented re the primary, and reject Carnacki's over-generalization of what front pagers do in regard to facts (separate from opinion), and whether that makes them hypocrites. I will also refrain from calling anyone names.

                PS "A little more humility and thought"

                What does that mean? That I'm supposed to agree with you or else I'm arrogant and thoughtless? That's somewhat arbitrary, no?

                "Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies." - Groucho Marx

                by Greg Dworkin on Mon Dec 29, 2008 at 12:29:31 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  Well (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  DemFromCT, Carnacki

                  To answer the first part of your response, I guess you don't care, really, about the nature of this CE who can't keep it together when posting.

                  I do not agree with DH's claim that Appalaichans won't vote for Obama (paraphrased). It is too general, and I do not agree that the front pagers ALL correct their mistakes. I have seen you and many of them do it. That would be too general too.

                  I am not sure what you call the behavior of shouting down anything you don't agree with in loud, unending, cynical posts that solve nothing and do not further any discussion. I call it bullying. Dana's complaints to the contrary, bullying does not only happen physically, it happens in lots of ways.

                  On to your objection to my admonition.

                  I think saying that you don't care whether someone has a bug up their ass about someone here (a CE), is disingenuous due to the fact that this behavior has manifested itself over a long period of time. So, I was asking you to be a little more humble and less defensive. And to think about the effect words have on people, you and I included.

                  FWIW, I have never had a problem with you in the 5 years I have been here, in fact I highly respect you for many reasons, among which are the flu diaries/wiki.

                  I do appreciate that you and many CE's correct their errors, just as we do in the right side of the page. I am unhappy about the over-the-top heavy-handedness of one CE who can't seem to have a discussion without being insulting and bullying.

                  By the way, bullying is in the eyes of the beholder.

                  I am being serious here, so please don't dismiss me as being relatively uneducated (I am), or not sufficiently deferential to one CE. I have been here longer than that, in good standing.

                  Thanks for the discussion.

            •  DemFromCT (0+ / 0-)

              Thanks for proving my one point inadvertantly.

              I never wrote "all front pagers are hypocrits." Show me where I wrote that. I wrote there was hypocrisy on the front page because I know there are errors made that are not corrected that have been pointed out to front pagers.

              Yet you got offended because you thought an entire group was being smeared, in this case the front pagers. Guess what? That's what happened to West Virginians in post after post by DHinMI. Except you misquoted me to find flaww ith what I wrote and I quoted him accurately.

              So you got "semi-turned off" and didn't even bother to quote my diary accurately. Instead, you aren't even bothering to find out if I have a legitimate complaint about the geographical errors and other numerous uncorrected errors cited by people.

              There is nothing more deceptive than an obvious fact. S. Holmes

              by Carnacki on Mon Dec 29, 2008 at 03:51:15 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  I read your diary from start to finish (0+ / 0-)

                I think there is a legit discussion to be had about data interpretation.

                I think the rest of your diary (the part that's not data driven) is not worth responding to, and I wasn't directly quoting you. However, your title sucks.

                "Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies." - Groucho Marx

                by Greg Dworkin on Mon Dec 29, 2008 at 04:10:51 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  DemFromCT (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Dems2004

                  I wasn't directly quoting you

                  Really?

                  Because when you wrote:

                  "all FP's are hypocrites" or "no FP corrects facts"

                  You used quote marks which are used for "directly quoting" somebody.

                  Meanwhile I don't recall a single front pager complaining about DHinMI overgeneralizing of Appalachians or West Virginians as racist.

                  But since under your reasoning about not seeing an error by DHinMI, when I referred to "all FP's" I was stating my opinion, it's not a factual error that needs correcting.

                  There is nothing more deceptive than an obvious fact. S. Holmes

                  by Carnacki on Mon Dec 29, 2008 at 04:38:51 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Come to think of it (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    Dems2004

                    I don't remember any criticism of DHinMI from the front pagers about his inflammatory diary title and posts either. He's proud of his work though.

                    There is nothing more deceptive than an obvious fact. S. Holmes

                    by Carnacki on Mon Dec 29, 2008 at 05:08:16 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

            •  DemFromCT (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Dems2004

              Let me put this more directly: you think I wrote "all front pagers" even though I never used that phrase. I was referring specifically to the front pagers I linked to. You didn't like it because you were lumped in with the front pagers in the wrong. But DHinMI wrote "... means voters in Appalachia aren't ready to vote for a Black candidate, even though in most of the rest of the country they are" in a diary about West Virginia and Kentucky and racism.

              Now I replied to you and linked to the front pagers I meant. When DHinMI was asked repeatedly and specifically to clarify if he meant some or too many Appalachians, he never clarified. He never explained he didn't mean all. In fact, he used similar phrasing again, lumping all Appalachians together, in his other diaries. But he says he stands by them 100 percent. He's proud of them.

              Now do you understand?

              There is nothing more deceptive than an obvious fact. S. Holmes

              by Carnacki on Mon Dec 29, 2008 at 04:07:33 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  Sure I understand (0+ / 0-)

                You wrote a deliberately inflammatory title and a provocative diary that obscured the legitimate data discussion. Why on earth would you be proud of yourself for that kind of work product?

                "Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies." - Groucho Marx

                by Greg Dworkin on Mon Dec 29, 2008 at 04:12:55 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  DemFromCT (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Dems2004

                  No, that's not what I did. I saw hypocrisy in the criticism of the media for uncorrected errors and saw similiarities with my experience here. I'd discussed the West Virginia data earlier in a diary that MB himself suggested to me that I linked to here after I complained in the comments of an open thread - just as you've suggested - about errors in georgia10's diaries and how the data from the election proved DHinMI's posts about Obama and West Virginia wrong.

                  But neither - including the indisputable errors about geography - led to corrections hence the hypocrisy.

                  You're angry because you feel smeared unfairly and included with those. You think you've been painted with the same broad brush and you're angry. Now you know how those of us in West Virginia and Appalachia feel about being painted with a broad brush. No, I'm not proud of this diary. I wish like hell it didn't have to be written or said. But it did.

                  There is nothing more deceptive than an obvious fact. S. Holmes

                  by Carnacki on Mon Dec 29, 2008 at 04:29:26 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                •  you mean like accusing racism in a title? (0+ / 0-)

                  That isn't inflammatory?

                  Wow, different standards here.

  •  Huh? (5+ / 0-)

    I think you confuse opinions with facts. And there are no "comments sections" in daily newspapers so that corrections can be made on the fly with readers.

  •  the beauty of a diary (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Fabian, Haningchadus14

    is you can edit it as soon as a comment shows you made an error. you can fact check it and make the corrections.

    NASA wants an Internet for Deep Space join the debate, pros and cons for space spending.

    by Vladislaw on Mon Dec 29, 2008 at 06:19:56 AM PST

  •  You make a very good point (10+ / 0-)

    that factual errors should be pointed out and corrected, especially from front pagers, if we want to maintain a credible site.  Editorial opinions should be clear that they are opinions, not fact. Front pagers should be aware that their words should be chosen carefully.

    This is all my opinion.

    •  Well-said (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      zett, Silverbird, Matt Z

      Editorial opinions should be clear that they are opinions, not fact. Front pagers should be aware that their words should be chosen carefully.

      Some would argue "but traditional media doesn't have to do that"--well, maybe not anymore. But that doesn't mean they shouldn't have to.

      I'm not an anarchist, but it would be good if people started realizing the difference between political propaganda and the truth. --John Lennon

      by o the umanity on Mon Dec 29, 2008 at 07:03:41 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  In this specific case (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Unduna

      I think that it was clearly an opinion because of the predictive aspect to it.  This didn't need an IMO at the beginning.

      I do think that this was an instance of over simple analysis that failed to raise the level of the conversation and mirrored the sentiments of the TM.

      It was a diary worthy post, but it just wasn't up to the standard that I'd like to see for the FP.

  •  The funny thing about that (9+ / 0-)

    red map showing where the vote went more republican this time, was that Arkansas (which is decidedly NOT in Appalachia) seems to be the epicenter of the trouble.  I would point out that this state was largely ignored by Obama.  He did not come and appear with our blue dog congressional candidates who were in very safe seats, nor did they go out and campaign for him (that I remember seeing).  Lincoln tried to help Rice next door in OK, but the others were oddly quiet.  People assume that this ugly red shift was the result of racism, when other factors were probably more of an issue.  We lost our state party head at a crucial time.  I did have one person say to me "I never voted for a n*gger and I never will", but I had many more tell me they simply couldn't support abortion.  The anti-gay foster care amendment drove churches participation, pulling out that same segment of anti-abortion people in droves.
    I also heard comments (even from a black lady I work with) that they didn't appreciate the way Hillary was treated.  Her later support did little to sway that anger.  When I went to a calling party in the delta, 2/3 of the participants were white.  When I drove to Little Rock most of the Obama bumperstickers were on white people's cars.  To say that this shift was the result of racism ignores several important cultural issues, and while it may be partially true, it just makes me mad.
    I don't expect this to be analyzed or the impression corrected, because I guess we don't really matter here in fly-over country.  Mocking us as racist hillbillies must be ok, because we aren't here in large numbers, but it sure won't help draw any more to our cause.

    Watch this space. Something brilliant will come to me soon, I'm sure.

    by tresgatos on Mon Dec 29, 2008 at 06:23:21 AM PST

    •  I think that... (6+ / 0-)

      I don't expect this to be analyzed or the impression corrected, because I guess we don't really matter here in fly-over country.  Mocking us as racist hillbillies must be ok, because we aren't here in large numbers, but it sure won't help draw any more to our cause.

      This is a way of pawning off the problem of racism on someone else-- it the only racist people are some poor white folks in the middle of the country then we can all sit around and feel great about not being racist at all on the costs right?

      I think it is very destructive.

      •  It is destructive, because we ignore it (4+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Kidspeak, Fabian, Unduna, CA Berkeley WV

        at our own peril.  Who has any hope of making a difference here when the problem is racism?  I can see why people would write it off.  But the truth is we can shift AR blue.  You simply have to structure the message and the other ballot issues being aware of the culture you're dealing with and for that you need to have an accurate view.  Some pastors in AR are still fighting that 80s culture war, with their armies at hand.  We need to break that link between church participation and voting.  

        Watch this space. Something brilliant will come to me soon, I'm sure.

        by tresgatos on Mon Dec 29, 2008 at 06:41:39 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  Zactly. (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        tresgatos

        Thank you.

        "In all chaos there is a cosmos, in all disorder, a secret order." Carl Jung

        by Unduna on Mon Dec 29, 2008 at 09:54:52 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

    •  Agreed (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Radical Faith, Silverbird, tresgatos

      Here in KY the state party leaders pretty much ran away from Obama.  Yarmouth came out early for Obama but Chandler only did so when it appeared he would be the candidate (and just in time to announce Obama when he came to Louisville).  Governor Beshear was silent until the election at which point he blamed Obama for not doing enough for Kentucky.

      I was really disheartened by the state Democratic party's failure to sense the mood of the rest of the country by their fielding recycled candidates both against Mitch McConnell and for Governor back in 2006.

      2006 was a lock for any Democrat on the heels of the failed Fletcher administration and the Party stuck with a status quo candidate in Steve Beshear instead of looking for new talent. (I liked what I saw of Greg Fischer but the higher ups decided early on that it would be Beshear and quashed any chance we had to weigh the two on their merits by effectively starving his candidacy).  The party doesn't nurture their young which results in a continuation of more of the same.

      The KDP's choice of Lunsford to run against McConnell was cynical at worst and shortsighted at best.  Either way it is an indictment of the state party's leadership and vision. Lunsford's rich so the Party wouldn't have to give him any money.  It's that plain and simple.  However they completely failed to see or adapt to the fact that Mitch McConnell was dipping in the polls and that there was an amazing opportunity to run a change candidate to lead Kentucky forward.  A wave was sweeping the country and Kentucky largely missed it.  I doubt that Lunsford, had he won, would be much better than McConnell (and that is a low bar) but that he got as close as he did (compared to the presidential race) left me pondering what could have been.  

      A better candidate would have inspired support rather than being handpicked in Frankfort and foisted on the electorate.  Fischer's early success should have been a clue to the KDP that his message was resonating with the voters but alas the party might have to spend money or work to get the electorate familiar with him.  A better candidate would have taken advantage of the massive Obama infrastructure/instruction manual that was handed to him/her on a silver platter.  

      Lunsford's sole campaign tactic was attack ads (and the fact that he wasn't Mitch McConnell of course).  A better candidate could have been Obama's emissary in Kentucky.  A dedicated and inspiring local candidate willing to go door to door and speaking to the issues that effect Kentuckians could have addressed "concerns" about Obama and countered them with more authority than a lackluster candidate running a traditional campaign from afar ever could.  Lunsford ran away from Obama, as well as the issues, entirely.

      The right candidate could have beaten McConnell and improved Obama's numbers here.  It's tragic really in hindsight to see such a golden opportunity wasted.      

      •  not sure I agree about governor (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        EmmaKY

        but I only have anecdotal evidence and my own memories of NKy to go by.

        My right-leaning friends who are still there had no intention of voting for Obama or anyone that didn't vote against him, yet all voted for Beshear.  A large part of that was his support for gambling (can't remember the specifics right now), and they're very upset at the moment because he hasn't delivered.

        It's basically the way I remember everything there, as far as needing to be a conservative Democrat to have success...but I realize that's a very small sample affirming my preconceived notions so it's not worth much.

        I hate moving goalposts.

        by dudemanguy on Mon Dec 29, 2008 at 10:49:56 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  NKY is sort of it's own animal. (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          dudemanguy, tresgatos

          Where a great deal of KY is socially conservative, NKY is just plain conservative.  I think that lots of people are Dems out of habit and also due to the long history of Democrats elected Governor.  They want access.

          It was/is in their best interest to be Dems because the Dems (mostly in name only) have been the party in power.  I think it's pragmatic for the monied elite and the power brokers to say they are Dems.

          Just my thoughts.

  •  OK. (9+ / 0-)

    You are very very right when you say that racism is not limited to the south-- I wrote about this issue too There is no "racist belt."

    News flash: lots of people who voted for Obama still have racist ideas and do racist things. You can love MLK and still have racist ideas-- You can have a black boyfriend and still do racist things.  Concepts like "the racist belt" don't help us fight racism since we end up defining it as something limited to just one part of the country.

    I think you make a very good point.

  •  Why did they single WV out? (10+ / 0-)

    I live in PA, and wasn't even sure he could this state. I mean I thought it was more likely than not. But the race issue was always in the back of my head. Then the day after he won everybody just came out of the woodwork and I was surprised how many people voted for him. It was like we were all afraid to say it or something. There's racism everywhere in the US of A.

  •  Who reads the front pagers anyway? (0+ / 0-)

    The value of daily Kos is the diaries and comments.  The front page writers are just predictable filler.  No one reads them.

  •  It's an echo chamger in here n/t (0+ / 0-)

    "We will now proceed to construct the socialist order."

    by 7November on Mon Dec 29, 2008 at 06:29:25 AM PST

  •  I don't think this is a black and white (6+ / 0-)

    case of "you're wrong, post a correction", more a case of different interpretation of the facts.

    For instance, this shift in vote certainly seems to show an Appalachian/southern bias against Obama from 2004. Whether that was racism or not is impossible to say for sure. You're probably right that blanket statements like "West Virginians are racist" are as stupid and harmful as "Latino's don't like Blacks" or "African Americans are homophobes".

    •  Grass (8+ / 0-)

      In the one instance, counties outside of the 219 counties that run from New York to Alabama were referred to as Appalachia. That is a simple factual error that should have been corrected. But in the bigger picture of the more counties turning red, that was 30 of the 219 Appalachian counties, but it was referred to as happening as an Appalachia issue. So either words matter or they don't. But to refer to the south as Appalachia is incorrect.

      There is nothing more deceptive than an obvious fact. S. Holmes

      by Carnacki on Mon Dec 29, 2008 at 06:44:46 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  I understand what you mean (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        IM, CA Berkeley WV

        but the NYT map clearly shows a streak of counties running up the Eastern part of the US. It very roughly corresponds to Appalachia, with lots of counties outside it's boundaries, and other areas separate from that streak of red (like Arkansas and North Texas).

        I get how calling it Obama's 'Appalachian problem' plays to clichés of racist hicks, but I'm not sure what else you could call that region where something is occurring. Calling it Obama's Arkansas, North Texas, North Alabama, Tennessee, West Kentucky and West Virginia problem just doesn't roll of the tongue.

        •  So it's not easy to categorize? (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          CA Berkeley WV, Jane Lew

          So then, too bad, categorize it any way?

          And then leap from one geographical generalization into another generalization - Appalachians are racists - to the next - Southerners are racists - to the next - forget the South.
          Never mind that Oklahoma isn't the South, and did not even have one blue county.

          And in that generalization jumping, we completely overlook that it might actually be classicism, maybe even the party's classicism, that's the real issue. Uh -oh, that's a whole series of electoral opportunities thrown away. AGAIN.

          See the problem? I don't care that it doesn't roll of your tongue.  Oklahoma is most emphatically NOT South Carolina, in any way.

          We have an voting issue here, and specifics bloody well matter. Let's at least start with some accurate terminology.

          I see your point, I suppose, but it is not going to work.

          "In all chaos there is a cosmos, in all disorder, a secret order." Carl Jung

          by Unduna on Mon Dec 29, 2008 at 10:06:07 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

  •  I was thinking the same thing (5+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Dems2004, Carnacki, CocoaLove, Fabian, Matt Z

    when I read that. Where does KOS post its corrections?

    My daily, where I worked for 20 years, has a policy that it prints corrections for EVERYTHING - all someone has to do is ask and have a reasonable request for a correction.

    But the problem too, is, as we saw with Rachel Maddow a week or so ago, is that the journalism is sloppy and isn't correct right from the start.

    I see two issues coming up - these days with blogs, we never, ever have to ever hear the other side. We can stay where we are, comfortable and surrounded by only the news we like. (And that goes for the other side too).

    And the other is that journalists, in their attempt to get both sides, just pull in ANYONE who has anything contrary to say, whether they are credible or not, and that's why I think we have such SHIT MSM. Lazy journalism sucks and that's what we have.

    Our corporate media treats journalists like shit, and journalists no longer put themselves on the line for the story. Why should they when they are encouraged to be sloppy and lazy and collect a paycheck and be home at 5 p.m.?

    'Journalism is the new factory farm'

    by the girl on Mon Dec 29, 2008 at 06:38:17 AM PST

  •  But if I make corrections it will impair my (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    SpamNunn

    desire to be insufferable...and what fun is that?

    This is just to say Forgive us victory tastes delicious so sweet and so cold

    by Dave the Wave on Mon Dec 29, 2008 at 06:44:56 AM PST

  •  These are opinion pieces (5+ / 0-)

    I don't think that any paper corrects opinion pieces, only news stories.

  •  Well in all fairness (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    howd, Uberbah, leonard145b

    Big media dailies don't allow swarms of commenters to examine/correct every single thing they've written and have that correction (or critique) permanently ensconced with the original piece either.

    Who was Bush_Horror2004, anyway?

    by Dartagnan on Mon Dec 29, 2008 at 06:45:46 AM PST

  •  I think you're confusing two things, here (6+ / 0-)

    Reporters are required by professional standards to issue corrections because they generate the factual baseline for a story.  Reporters work inside an editorial process, so if there is a factual error in an article, an errata is issued on behalf of the entire newspaper, etc.  Bloggers, by contrast, are not reporters nor do they pretend to be. They're more akin to Op-Ed columnists who write outside of an editorial process, even if they write pieces on occasion that mimic the process of introducing baseline facts.    So, if a blogger posts an errata, that would be claiming something false: that they are reporters.

    What bloggers do instead (most of us, anyway) is engage in comment threads where we defend their views in the face of direct criticism.  Reporters, of course, do not engage our readers directly because that is not the convention.  

    What this means for DailyKos is that all the opinions and facts on the FP are not just stated as cold fact in the way that articles are in newspapers.  DailyKos posts exist in the context of reader discussions filled wit all kinds of claims and counterclaims.  And it is the willingness of bloggers to allow, nurture, and protect that contextualization by readers--readers whose opinions we do not control (although we sometimes prune it back for decorum's sake)--that gives bloggers their own kind of integrity.

    So, if FP posters where not allowing discussion of their pieces, you would have a case that they were the same as, e.g., a reporter who refused to ever issue errata.  

    That's how it works.

    ---
    Tired of violent language from right-wing pundits? Buy my book: Outright Barbarous

    by Jeffrey Feldman on Mon Dec 29, 2008 at 06:48:45 AM PST

    •  Jeffrey (11+ / 0-)

      You're confusing addressing issues in the comments with what is stated on the front page posts.

      Think of those as the news articles or opinion pieces. If a fact is stated in either and is wrong it should be corrected.

      Comments don't go out on news readers. Front page posts do.

      There is nothing more deceptive than an obvious fact. S. Holmes

      by Carnacki on Mon Dec 29, 2008 at 06:57:27 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  well... (0+ / 0-)

        I am generally confused on most things in life, but not this one, strangely.  Maybe it's because I run a blog and I interact with the mainstream media on a regular basis, so my understanding of the difference between the two is not accidental.  

        Your point about comments not coming up on searches is not really the issue here, because Google searches bring up cached pieces anyway.  So, I could write a post that says "Scientist Proves DailyKos Run By Communist Hedgehogs Living In Remote Russian Laboratory," and it would be pulled up by searches no matter how many corrections I issued ("Errata:  The hedgehogs are not communist--they're carnies; sorry for that error.")  And the same is true of newspapers.  In today's world of internet tubes, people getting out-of-date information via the Google is just part of life, not the fault of writers.

        But on a personal note (besides how annoyed I get when people put my name in a subject line...ehem), the larger issue here just might be that DHinMI has a dark and powerful gift for getting under people's skin--a talent that I simultaneously loathe, admire, fear, celebrate and on occasion:  imitate (oh, the shame of it).

        ---
        Tired of violent language from right-wing pundits? Buy my book: Outright Barbarous

        by Jeffrey Feldman on Mon Dec 29, 2008 at 07:17:33 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Jeffrey (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Dems2004, CA Berkeley WV

          That is nothing to imitate, particularly when it is about passing along false information.

          In this you are wrong. Kos has stated many times he doesn't like the phrase mainstream media because this is the mainstream media.

          For example your overly cute example of communist hedgehogs. If you later wrote that you were wrong, that too would come up in google searches so a correction of sorts would be there. But if you now know there's no communist hedgehogs and you don't write anything because you're too insecure of a writer to admit you're wrong then you can't go around expecting to be taken credibly. Do you want Daily Kos to be taken credibly or not?

          There is nothing more deceptive than an obvious fact. S. Holmes

          by Carnacki on Mon Dec 29, 2008 at 07:23:17 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Elvis (0+ / 0-)

            Do I want DailyKos to be taken seriously or not? Didn't know this thread was marching me to a major life decision, but...OK.

            I don't care about assuaging those people who don't take DailyKos seriously in the hopes that they will suddenly take it seriously. Life is too short to worry about such things.  For goodness sakes, half the country doesn't take The New York Times seriously.  I want DailyKos to be influential--and it is.  

            But you know what? If posting errata is important to a group of people around here, why not start a diary series along those lines?  That would serve the needs of the people in this thread who believe that would be a valuable addition to the site, and I'm sure it would be welcome by many in the diaries and elsewhere.

            ---
            Tired of violent language from right-wing pundits? Buy my book: Outright Barbarous

            by Jeffrey Feldman on Mon Dec 29, 2008 at 07:44:21 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  Jeffrey (4+ / 0-)

              I do take the truth seriously. I do take Appalalchians - DHinMI didn't say some Appalachians or too many Appalachians but Appalachians - as too racist to vote for a black candidate seriously. Words matter. Having my children smeared matters. It shouldn't be influential if it posts false information and doesn't correct it.

              Posting a diary series is not the answer. Posts on the front page are read by millions. Posts even those on the recommended list are read just by thousands. And as my earlier correction of the errors showed they too often just slide down the recent diary list.

              Congratulations on coming up with a solution that's about as relevant as your hedgehogs.

              There is nothing more deceptive than an obvious fact. S. Holmes

              by Carnacki on Mon Dec 29, 2008 at 07:49:27 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  well...I'm happy to have this discussion (0+ / 0-)

                so long as we talk about the actual subject matter and drop all this blogger-professional-code stuff.

                When you felt your children were smeared, you countered the smear--and everyone saw it.   If you feel there's a poster on the site who routinely maligns Appalachia, drive the discussion of Appalachia on the site so that the FP poster becomes a minority opinion, irrelevant.

                IOW: if you're really angry about how Appalachia is discussed, don't talk about 'journalistic standards.'  Talk about Appalachia.

                That much being said, I am a fairly active reader of this site and I have no idea what DHinMI thinks of Appalachia nor did I even know there was a general opinion tossed around during the election.  So, if that's any indication of how influential those posts where...

                C&J started as a diary series and it now has a huge readership. PastorDan started as just a diarist, and he has a huge voice.  Frameshop is a diary series with a relatively modest readership, but carries influence. Don't under-estimate the power of a diary series or the power of a single diarist with energy and focus to shape the discussion on this site. Sure, the FP posters are influential in some ways. But the real power of this site is in the diaries.  And I really believe that.

                ---
                Tired of violent language from right-wing pundits? Buy my book: Outright Barbarous

                by Jeffrey Feldman on Mon Dec 29, 2008 at 08:04:24 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  Jeffrey (4+ / 0-)

                  No, this is about errors on the front page. I used a specific example because if you don't include specifics people will ask for them or just say you're wrong. Quite a few other people have mentioned other errors that were uncorrected here in the comments.

                  There is nothing more deceptive than an obvious fact. S. Holmes

                  by Carnacki on Mon Dec 29, 2008 at 08:11:49 AM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                •  Jeffrey (4+ / 0-)

                  This is the problem... you said "When you felt your children were smeared, you countered the smear--and everyone saw it.   If you feel there's a poster on the site who routinely maligns Appalachia, drive the discussion of Appalachia on the site so that the FP poster becomes a minority opinion, irrelevant."

                  Not everyone saw it. The FP closed ranks. They never promoted any of Carnacki's recommended diaries on the topic. It's not like OpenLeft with a Right to Respond. Many people saw it, but there are readers who only read the FP.

                  Otherwise, I agree with what you said.

        •  that depends on your perspective (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Dems2004, CA Berkeley WV

          there's a difference between "a dark and powerful gift for getting under peoples' skin" and "stirring up shit and then hiding behind their current, elevated writer-status".

          I've witnessed, more than once, where this person disagrees with whatever argument, diary, or comment being made. When further challenged, reference is then made to "being a site administrator", which I do not believe to be the same thing as "being a front page writer".

          I have asked repeatedly for clarification on that--I was only once referred to the dkosopedia, where the only thing referencing it which came close was the section on "who speaks for kos". And he wasn't on that list. The other times, my asking for clarification ended that thread of the discussion.

          Even if "being a site admin" is the same as "front-page writer", these disagreements do not seem to be made in the spirit of honing their linguistic talent further, such that the word 'gifted' is associated with them--they seem to be done for one reason and one reason only: to intimidate.

          I'm not an anarchist, but it would be good if people started realizing the difference between political propaganda and the truth. --John Lennon

          by o the umanity on Mon Dec 29, 2008 at 07:37:28 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

    •  come on, Jeffrey (7+ / 0-)

      Lots of people read the front page but never wade into the crowded comment sections. So they would never read the comments correcting errors in the original post.

      Join the Iowa progressive community at Bleeding Heartland.

      by desmoinesdem on Mon Dec 29, 2008 at 07:06:40 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  that's right, but everyone--I mean (0+ / 0-)

        everyone reads the errata issued by a newspaper.  That's why they print them three weeks later in 3.5 font hidden in the obituaries.  So people can find them.  Whereas comments are really, really difficult to find.  

        I'd bet something off the menu at Applebee's that the percentage of blog readers who find comment threads is exponentially higher than the percentage of newspaper readers who happen upon errata statements.  And I have absolutely no data to prove that...

        ---
        Tired of violent language from right-wing pundits? Buy my book: Outright Barbarous

        by Jeffrey Feldman on Mon Dec 29, 2008 at 07:22:58 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

    •  Jeffrey (11+ / 0-)

      Also you miss the bigger picture. kos is the one who refers to this site as part of the media. If the front page wants to hold other media accountable and expects to hold columnists and other opinion makers accountable for their errors, then this site has to be held to the same or even higher standard.

      There is nothing more deceptive than an obvious fact. S. Holmes

      by Carnacki on Mon Dec 29, 2008 at 07:08:55 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  Let's take your argument at face value then. (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Miss Blue, zett, Mehitabel9

      If journalists, whether writers for newspapers or reporters for networks or whomever, have a set of professional standards that create a higher set of expectations both that they should have in their own work and that we proles should have in it, it is because they want to be trusted, want to be believed, want for something that is published in the New York Times to have a greater truth-value than something published in the Weekly World News.

      If a contributor to a website, in any capacity, wants to be trusted they will assume journalistic burdens and responsibilities. Or else, if they prefer to be written off as cranks writing in their jammies (really, insert your favorite derogatory comment about writers at Daily Kos here), they should feel free to hold themselves to a less exacting standard.

      But when it comes write down to it, is anyone writing here, or is anyone writing ever, who does not want to be trusted? Does not want to be believed? Does not want to be respected?

      You can argue for these limitations on what we should expect at Daily Kos, but if you do then we get to keep them, and we have earned to that degree a small bit of the ire and disrespect the Bill O'Reillys of the world heap on us.

      "It's like we weren't made for this world, But I wouldn't really want to meet someone who was." --Of Montreal

      by andydoubtless on Mon Dec 29, 2008 at 07:10:50 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  well... (0+ / 0-)

        Bloggers don't need to 'assume journalistic standards' to be trusted.  Reporters set the baseline for a story by building up facts.  Bloggers shape and drive a story through argument.  Very different, although they interact quite a bit.

        Bloggers need to follow blogging standards to be trusted.  And they do.  Unless they don't.  

        ---
        Tired of violent language from right-wing pundits? Buy my book: Outright Barbarous

        by Jeffrey Feldman on Mon Dec 29, 2008 at 07:27:26 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Come on now. (0+ / 0-)

          So blogging is about argument whereas journalism is about facts? But how does an argument about anything get traction except either by its use of facts? Of course there is no end of fine practitioners of the art of fact-free blogging (God, how sweet life would be if at least some of them took up kite-flying or model airplanes instead). But do we really want these to be the models for how we structure the discipline of blogging?

          All argument requires facts, reasonably verified. And as I say above, all arguments want to be believed. The difference between what you do and what journalism is is decided more than anything else by how you choose to go about your blogging, and the standards you choose to argue for in venues like this one.

          "It's like we weren't made for this world, But I wouldn't really want to meet someone who was." --Of Montreal

          by andydoubtless on Mon Dec 29, 2008 at 07:43:30 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

    •  Bloggers report and editorialize (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Miss Blue, carllaw

      I'll admit that a lot of it is "Gonzo journalism" but there isn't a magic wall between blogging and reporting. Some of the best legal reporting is done by law professors on the blogs. Likewise, there is some excellent science reporting done by scientists on the blogs.

      DHinMi has done some excellent political reporting. He is a Washington insider who is capable of excellent work.

      However, in my opinion, he lets his personality get in the way of his work on many occasions.

      "It's the planet, stupid."

      by FishOutofWater on Mon Dec 29, 2008 at 07:16:19 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  sure there's a magic wall (0+ / 0-)

        It's called a 'paycheck.' Reporters, for the most part, get paid and are subject to editorial process of their employers.  There's overlap, but the distinction is pretty clear.  The number of bloggers who do reporting is very small (e.g., FDL does some, TPM divides its site into reporting and blogging, RawStory has a few reporters, HuffPo has a few). But in each case, what turns a blogger into a reporter is (1) paying him/her and (2) subjecting him/her to editorial process.  

        ---
        Tired of violent language from right-wing pundits? Buy my book: Outright Barbarous

        by Jeffrey Feldman on Mon Dec 29, 2008 at 07:30:31 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

  •  The FP isn't worthless (6+ / 0-)

    ...but sometimes, it's close.

    Look, Kos got lucky. He got lucky by deciding to start a blog (and smart enough to make it a community blog) at exactly the right time to turn this place into some sort of zeitgeist, helped along by whoever it was that invented Scoop.

    But let's not make it more than it is. Just because he got lucky, and that luck translates into book deals and facetime on the teevee, doesn't mean Kos is or ever was much of a thinker...and he's not. And, unfortunately, many (not all, but many) of the people he taps for the front page are the same type of lucky mediocrities that he is.

    The FP was never where the "action" is around this place. Honestly, with a few exceptions that are fine thinkers, and with a few useful regular features (C&J, the Pundit Roundup, and others like that), the FP's main function is a peek into the mindset of Kos and his chosen fellow lucky mediocrities. And that mindset is often a big pile of murk.

    What do you call a parent that believes in abstinence only sex ed? A Grandparent.

    by ChurchofBruce on Mon Dec 29, 2008 at 06:57:50 AM PST

    •  Devilstower's posts on mountaintop removal (13+ / 0-)

      were powerful, highly professional reports that were worthy of some kind of award. The FP has much mediocre material, but there are also gems. The FP has much in common with "old media" in that regard.

      "It's the planet, stupid."

      by FishOutofWater on Mon Dec 29, 2008 at 07:19:49 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  McJoan is awfully good, though. (6+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Dems2004, Miss Blue, zett, Unduna, wvablue, temptxan

      Her writing is some of the finest around, I think. She's one of the few (and main reasons) I still blog here.

      The faux mask of anonymity amplifies the courage just like whiskey. And it just as graceful and eloquent as whiskey.

      by Pager on Mon Dec 29, 2008 at 07:25:08 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  Wow (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Unduna

      If I had felt the way you do my first year here, I would have been gone long ago.

      With the rare exception, the front page writers on this site, including Kos, have been far above "mediocre".  In my humble opinion.

      Do they all occasionally write clap-trap?  Sure.  But taking their work as a whole, the higher percentage is way above average.  

      "But your flag decal won't get you into heaven anymore"--Prine 4210+ dead Americans. Bring them home.

      by Miss Blue on Mon Dec 29, 2008 at 07:31:27 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  I disagree (0+ / 0-)

      I don't believe it was just luck. If that were the case then there would be hundreds, if not thousands, of other bloggers similarly situated. The quality of the commentary and analysis on this site has been very high from the very beginning. Although the signal to noise ratio has been impacted in direct proportion to the rise in membership.

      Markos is an incredibly insightful blogger IMO. That attracted many other highly intelligent commentators in the early years (and continues to do so). A look at the membership of Dkos in the early years reads like a who's who of the Blogosphere. I agree with about 99.9 percent of what he posts, and that is unusual for me.

      The only gripe I have is that he doesn't step in to hold his front-pagers accountable (when necessary), and he occasionally allows bias to seep into his commentary. In other words, he at times stoops to being human. I always feel disappointed and let down when I realize he is mortal, but his commentary is so consistently on point that I get over it quickly.

  •  Remember the "blackened Obama" video (9+ / 0-)

    where the site owner claimed nefarious blackening of Obama footage by the Clinton campaign for which he cited overt racist intent.

    All that was debunked, and we never heard a peep about it again.

    Only sayin'.

  •  Been there, done that. (11+ / 0-)

    About a year ago, I had this rec'd diary on New Year's Day calling out the front page blaring headline: "Obama Slams Gore"

    Of course, the whole thing was so inaccurate I expected some sort of correction.  It never came.

    So it goes.

    Obamaponies made of rainbows would make ME happy.

    by wmtriallawyer on Mon Dec 29, 2008 at 07:00:15 AM PST

  •  What's the point? Some errors are self correcting (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    sadpanda, LnGrrrR

    and as such need not the type of correction that you are demanding.

    But, when Bill Kristol falsely states that Obama was in the Church during one of Rev. Wright’s incendiary remarks,; that needs the type of correction you are demanding here.

  •  Agree with you re: Appalachia, but think (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    mihan, LynneK

    kos' post that you link to is saying the opposite of what you are implying here.  He is not saying that Latinos will vote against Obama due to race.  He is saying the opposite.  He is also acknowledging from first-hand experience that racism is a problem that infects the Latino community.  And saying that won't determine people's votes at the end of the day.

    The festive scenes of liberation that Dick Cheney had once imagined for Iraq were finally taking place -- in cities all over America -- Frank Rich

    by Mother of Zeus on Mon Dec 29, 2008 at 07:04:03 AM PST

  •  one double standard I never understood (6+ / 0-)

    was why Ed Fallon, Democratic challenger to Bush Dog Leonard Boswell in the IA-03 primary this year, got no help (that I am aware of) from any Daily Kos front-pager except for one small mention at the bottom of an mcjoan post about FISA.

    How many times has Kos written that the only leverage we have against bad Democratic incumbents is to primary them?

    After all the front-page posts about Mark Pera and Donna Edwards, and how important it is to be thinking ahead about primary challenges in 2010, I expected some kind of front-page activity on the IA-03 primary here.

    I understand people's reasons for not supporting Fallon, but I think Kos or someone else should have at least explained why DKos was not getting behind Fallon. Was it because Boswell isn't "that bad?" Was it because they thought Fallon had no chance to win the primary? Wouldn't be a good representative? Supported Nader in 2000?

    I posted many comments in many threads asking why there was no support for Fallon, and never got an answer. A modest DKos fundraising effort for Fallon would have allowed him to run some tv ads near the end. A front-page post explaining the decision not to back Fallon was in order, in my opinion.

    If I'm a candidate anywhere in the country thinking about running against a Blue Dog incumbent, I would have no idea whether I'd get massive support from DKos like Mark Pera or radio silence like Ed Fallon.

    Thanks, by the way, to the bloggers who did write about the Fallon race, like Howie Klein.

    Join the Iowa progressive community at Bleeding Heartland.

    by desmoinesdem on Mon Dec 29, 2008 at 07:04:17 AM PST

  •  racism in US? (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    sistersilverwolf

    Percentages of persons voting for a candidate don't reflect racism or lack of it.

    The best evidence I saw for racism was a map in the NY Times that showed placed that voted a higher percentage of Republican for president than in the previous election. That, to me, is more direct evidence of racism, and Appalachia had areas where that was included in that map.

    I am open to alternative explanations.  

    The original article was in the NY Times

    http://silencedmajority.blogs.com/...

    Be ashamed to die until you have won some victory for humanity. Horace Mann (and btw, the bike in kayakbiker is a bicycle)

    by Kayakbiker on Mon Dec 29, 2008 at 07:07:30 AM PST

    •  Kayakbiker (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Dems2004, Unduna, CA Berkeley WV

      30 of those counties - less than a third - are in Appalachia. Appalachia has 219 counties, the majority of which went more blue.

      There is nothing more deceptive than an obvious fact. S. Holmes

      by Carnacki on Mon Dec 29, 2008 at 07:10:30 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  This is a question (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Dems2004

        does "Appalachia" have such a standard, exact definition that you can delineate counties like that? "Appalachia" I always took as more indistinct than that.

        What do you call a parent that believes in abstinence only sex ed? A Grandparent.

        by ChurchofBruce on Mon Dec 29, 2008 at 07:14:50 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  If one were to summarize that map (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        sistersilverwolf

        The red counties appear to follow the mountains, but indeed there are many other red areas as well, including the Florida panhandle and some of the states you mention in your diary.

        Be ashamed to die until you have won some victory for humanity. Horace Mann (and btw, the bike in kayakbiker is a bicycle)

        by Kayakbiker on Mon Dec 29, 2008 at 07:14:56 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Kayakbiker (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Dems2004, CA Berkeley WV

          If you look at them in detail, however, it's not as Appalachian as the front pagers claimed. So when front pagers refer to areas outside of Appalachia as Appalachia I expect a correction of simple errors like that.

          There is nothing more deceptive than an obvious fact. S. Holmes

          by Carnacki on Mon Dec 29, 2008 at 07:18:07 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  I dunno, Carnacki (0+ / 0-)

            I understand your feelings on this, but calling out DHinMI for something done months ago? That doesn't sit well with me.

            I know you observed all the rules, but as pointed out here in comments, you have made errors here as well.

            And you owned up to them immediately. That's a good thing.  Still, this bothers me...

            We do not rent rooms to Republicans.

            by Mary Julia on Mon Dec 29, 2008 at 08:50:51 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  Mary Julia (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              CA Berkeley WV

              It was prompted by the front page post by MB. I could have done it without specifics, but then people would have called me on that and this is the area of the errors I am most familiar with. In the comments, DHinMI claims everything he wrote was correct, including the region being more racist even though it voted at the same as 2004 as 2008.

              There is nothing more deceptive than an obvious fact. S. Holmes

              by Carnacki on Mon Dec 29, 2008 at 09:11:10 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

  •  Righting wrongs (14+ / 0-)

    Carnacki is right about the smearing of Appalachia and also about past wrongs never being addressed on the front page.

    There are a number of things that happened here during the primaries and the general election that need to be revisited and cleared up.  Winning the election didn't just magically fix everything.  A lot of damage was done.  A lot of individuals, factions, groups, regions, etc. were unfairly smeared with the charge of racism, various ad hominem attacks and general mob/bullying behavior.  It's not something one brushes off too easily.  There is more than one front pager who did this, and there are scores of community members who did the same.

    "The true measure of a man is how he treats someone who can do him absolutely no good." --Samuel Johnson

    by joanneleon on Mon Dec 29, 2008 at 07:09:26 AM PST

    •  It won't brush off (0+ / 0-)

      It's a permanent stain. In the end though, all that was really helpful to me because I put way too much faith in what and who I read here without going elsewhere to gain more information.

  •  Thank you Carnaki (8+ / 0-)

    Your WV example is perfect.

    The MSN (almost) always gets it wrong when reporting about our home state. It is as though they have a script about what they think white mountain people are like, and they dust it off and report it every time there is news coming out of our state.

    I wish we could convince the MSN that their preconceived notions about our people are just that...preconceived notions.

    We are human...like everybody else...even if some have difficulty understanding it.

  •  I don't know about corrections on the Front Page (6+ / 0-)

    how about four day old news!  it's incredible how a front page story will arrive days after the rest of the MSM have reported it, today's Obama's tuna melt non story was a non-story days ago when it was reported all over the place.

    What a waste of space.

  •  I'm glad you posted this, Carnacki. (13+ / 0-)

    First, I love Meteor Blades and read those blogs all of the time.  They are fresh insights and informative pieces that give me perspective.  I would be willing to forgive Meteor Blades just about any mistake because there is so much that is put into those posts --an error or two is bound to fall through the cracks.

    But overall, I think that sometimes there is a smugness that comes through some FP's that is offensive.  It is an arrogance that refuses to admit mistakes:  "I think, therefore I'm right."  Rather than adding to the 'expertise' of the DK, it subtracts from the credibility of the site.

    This is a great discussion.  As I read through the comments, I find myself nodding my head through much of it.

    Investigate! Impeach! Indict! Incarcerate!

    by Cato come back on Mon Dec 29, 2008 at 07:11:19 AM PST

  •  20 states at 41% or lower white support for Obama (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Carnacki, Unduna, Jane Lew

    I think the WVA percentage of whites voting for Obama might have beaten more than a few non-Appalachian states in the South and Midwest.

    Let's go take a look, shall we?

    I count 20 states with as low or lower white voter support for Obama in the 2008 election.

    West Virginia ties with South Dakota. You know, one of those Appalachian states.

    I count three - Alabama, Mississippi and Louisiana - with less than 15%.

    You know... Gulf Coast states. As Appalachian as it gets...

    •  CSK, to be honest, (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Unduna

      the northern third of Alabama is in the Appalachian range. In fact, the Birmingham metro area is in the foothills of the Appalachians. The state has more area that is in the Appalachians (or foothills thereof,) than we have area that is on the Gulf Coast.

      "Truth never damages a cause that is just."~~~Mohandas K. Gandhi -9.38/-6.26

      by LynneK on Mon Dec 29, 2008 at 07:25:28 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  DHinMI? (10+ / 0-)

    Correct an error? Hahahahahahahahahahahaha!

    He's a protected species: the anti-environment, self-righteous rustbelt industrial labor Democrat. All attitude, no accountability.

    That's just how Michigan rolls.

    •  I haven't really got a problem (6+ / 0-)

      with rustbelt industrial labor Democrats, being one myself :).

      I've got a problem with people who can't think. Which he can't.

      What do you call a parent that believes in abstinence only sex ed? A Grandparent.

      by ChurchofBruce on Mon Dec 29, 2008 at 07:18:19 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  I wish it were possible to do the kind of search (6+ / 0-)

      that would ascertain whether this Front Pager (I shall refrain from mentioning the name) has ever posted a reply that did not call the previous commentator stupid!  I ewould doubt it.

      When I see him coming i run as fast as possible in the other direction. He ceased to have any relevance to me years ago, sadly, even when he has something intelligent to say. And that is great shame but inmo it has contribuited greatly to the abuse here of the TU status wwwhere people now use it to stifle opposing views.

      I would be very interested to know if anyone knows of a study that has been done by reputable sources of the inevitable descent of any group think site to irrelevancy in terms of growth?

      I have been trying to find some by googling Internet/Psychology, but get so much irrelevant material it is hard to pinpoint the social psychological impact of a blog once it reaches the tipping point or critical mass.

  •  Hey Carnacki (8+ / 0-)

    As you know, I've watched this one unfold over last year or so and agree with you. I don't put this at MB's door, but I think it should be addressed, particularly when it offends 1) the truth and 2) a long term, loyal blogger here like you. You don't have tasks here and don't represent the blog, but your presence here is meaningful and without long-term contributors like you, this place would be shallow.

    I suspect some of this controversy is attributable to personal dynamics (not involving you) and that's too bad.....loyalty primed above truth makes for a pretty empty vessel. Especially when the definition of loyalty is somewhat unidimensional.

    Makes for some interesting side shows, though.

  •  Kos should follow traditional media standards -- (0+ / 0-)

    do nothing.

  •  Stop confusing journalistic responsibility with (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Carnacki

    humility.  

    Having credibility when making an argument is the straightest path to persuasion.

    by SpamNunn on Mon Dec 29, 2008 at 07:17:58 AM PST

  •  Funny you should mention it. (14+ / 0-)

    BarbinMD has a FP post up right now criticizing the traditional media for ignoring real news -- while, as others have already pointed out, the FP has featured exactly zero posts about the fact that Gaza is going up in flames.  Why this is, I don't really know, but it smacks of journalistic cowardice to me.

    Pot, meet kettle.

    I think DK is better than that.  Or at least is capable of being better than that.

    War is a way of shattering to pieces... materials which might otherwise be used to make the masses too comfortable and... too intelligent. George Orwell

    by Mehitabel9 on Mon Dec 29, 2008 at 07:21:25 AM PST

    •  correction (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Phoenix Woman

      I think DK is better than that.  Or at least is capable of being better than that.

      It used to be better than that. I've been a member since 2004, and lately since Markos has slowed down on posting, on his own blog, the quality has really slipped.

      •  Hmmm. (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        eugene, Unduna, esquimaux

        Markos isn't that great of a writer -- he's not bad, either, but if I were to line up the FPers in the order of the quality of their writing, he'd be somewhere near the end of the line.

        I don't think that his absence from the front page has the kind of impact you think it does.

        War is a way of shattering to pieces... materials which might otherwise be used to make the masses too comfortable and... too intelligent. George Orwell

        by Mehitabel9 on Mon Dec 29, 2008 at 07:28:19 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  he's the best with the linky open-threads (0+ / 0-)

          but I used to think that he got it so much better than the rest. Now I'm just not sure.

          Its starting not to matter. I honestly never thought I'd live to see the day where the Daily Kos has outlived its usefulness and became a poor use of my time. At least its outlived MyDD by a couple of years before starting to jump the shark.

    •  To see Gaza coverage, go to FDL (0+ / 0-)

      The latest piece is here.

      Visit http://theuptake.org/ for Minnesota news as it happens.

      by Phoenix Woman on Mon Dec 29, 2008 at 07:38:37 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  Why no Gaza? (0+ / 0-)

      Because this is not a general information news magazine.  You want an I/P diary read one of the several or write one yourself.  There's plenty to read on the subject, and, for one, I do not feel the need to read any particular CE's take on it any more than I need to read any diarist's take on the latest political columnist's weekly piece.

      In vino veritas

      by GOTV on Mon Dec 29, 2008 at 07:50:56 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  Well... (7+ / 0-)

      I have long had my issues with most FPers and agree with the general sentiment here that the FP is not worth that much, isn't where the action is here, and isn't the source of this site's value.

      That being said I feel less concerned about their lack of focus on Gaza - maybe I'm used to it, but this site has never had a strong international bent to it. Never really shown much grasp of international affairs. Even mcjoan's posts on Iraq - which are consistently among the best FP pieces (along with pretty much whatever Meteor Blades writes) - tend to emphasize the way Iraq impacts America. Nothing wrong with that, but we've never really had any good assessments of global affairs in their own context.

      I think that stems from a different issue. DHinMI is basically sacrosanct here - he can say or do literally anything and get away with it, since Markos values loyalty over doing the right thing. I've long felt that to be a huge problem.

      The issue you raise is that this site has a big blind spot on the FP. That suggests the need to develop breadth and seek out internationalist writers, something that hasn't ever really been done (Plutonium Page is a step in the right direction since she's based in Europe, but she too tends to focus on American issues).

      I'm not part of a redneck agenda - Green Day
      Neither is California High Speed Rail

      by eugene on Mon Dec 29, 2008 at 08:10:26 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  This is overblown, IMO.... (8+ / 0-)

    It seems to me that you are taking a couple of random bits of data and inflating that into a "cause", because you have a personal problem with something somebody wrote.  

    The viewpoint that "Applachian whites won't vote for Obama" was hardly exclusive to DKos or DHinMI. And there was a lot of data to support such a conclusion. I seem to recall a  map that showed a swath of red (meaning increased Republican votes compared to 2004) which was used by many commenters to indicate a resistance by white voters to support Obama. Not to mention that there is other data that disagrees with your view that white vote in WV match the national trends. From CNN exit polls:

    WV Wht Dems: O69%-M29%
    Nat Wht Dems: O85%-M14%

    WV Wht Ind: O36%-M60%
    Nat Ind: O47%-M49%

    What does this mean? I don't know--but it seem that more analysis is needed before you can conclude that "white vote in W Va is the same as the white vote nationally".

    If you have different data, or a different interpretation of the results, or a detailed study of actual election results vs the pre-election data and predictions, then the constructive thing to do would be to write a diary analyzing the information and educating the rest of us, instead of taking a few random bits of data and deciding that this constitutes "rank hypocrisy".

    Excuse me if I don't pin your cross to my tunic.

    If there is anyone out there who still doubts that America is a place where all things are possible...tonight is your answer.

    by Azdak on Mon Dec 29, 2008 at 07:37:46 AM PST

    •  Azdak (3+ / 0-)

      Did you read the diary? The rank hypocrisy was about the front page not correcting errors.

      BTW, the white vote in WV for Obama was 69 percent white vote for Kerry 69 percent.

      Hardly proof that West Virginia is racist, just we have DINOs. But expecting something beyond superficial analysis and expecting accuracy is overblown I guess.

      There is nothing more deceptive than an obvious fact. S. Holmes

      by Carnacki on Mon Dec 29, 2008 at 10:06:12 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  the hillbilly sections of our country (0+ / 0-)

    are pretty much the only ones to vote MORE republican this round
    NYT map

    •  FilipinoMonkey (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      CA Berkeley WV

      Proof that ignorance isn't just a "hillbilly" trait and bigotry is a problem with every demographic, 30 of 420 Appalachian counties are on that map. Nearly all of it lies outside of Appalachia.

      There is nothing more deceptive than an obvious fact. S. Holmes

      by Carnacki on Mon Dec 29, 2008 at 09:07:31 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  Time for Atrios to Call for a Bloggers Ethics (0+ / 0-)

    Panel.

    So, who did get picked for the FP in 2009?

    Notice: This Comment © ROGNM

    by ROGNM on Mon Dec 29, 2008 at 07:47:41 AM PST

  •  Looks like Carnacki is bucking for (0+ / 0-)

    the Zypher Teachout Chair on blogging ethics at the Berkman Center.

  •  Error in interpretation, not factual error (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    GOTV, IM, Uberbah, dotalbon

    If there is an error at all.  An argument could conceivably be made:

    West Virginia's partisan breakdown hugely favors Democrats.  In this election, 48% of the voters were Democrats and 19% were Independents, only 34% were Republicans.  But McCain still won, because 28% of Democrats (nationally: 10%) and 58% of Independents (nationally: 44%) voted for McCain.  Nationally, only 10% of Democrats voted for McCain.

    Incidentally, 32% of people who voted for Clinton in the WV primary voted for McCain in the general, giving him a net 9-point margin.  Nationally, that number was only 16%, for a net 2-point margin.

    And the exit poll shows that 31% of WVians thought that race was "a factor" in their vote, and they went 59-39 McCain (nationally: 19%, 53-45 for Obama).  22% said it was "an important factor" and went 62-35 for McCain (nationally: 9%, 53-46 for Obama).

    It's unsupportable to claim that there was no racial component to Obama's poor performance in West Virginia based solely on percentage white-voter support, because that ignores the massive partisan-ID advantage Obama, or at least "the Democrat," should have had.

    However, it's also not necessarily true that race was the biggest issue causing Democrats to flock to McCain.  It may have been guns, it may have been religion, it may have been antipathy towards another "pencil-neck" like Gore and Kerry (who they also didn't vote for), it may have been any number of things.

    That's a far cry from printing a retraction for a factual error, though.  If anything, it is an error in interpretation.  You'll find that Meteor Blades was not calling for a full retraction of all Thomas Friedman's columns ever to have been printed; only factual mistakes.

    •  69 percent D voted Kerry (0+ / 0-)

      69 percent D voted for McCain

      Also the post he blockquoted did call for the Friedman correction.

      As to not expecting correction, I certainly expect a follow up post with the correct information.

      There is nothing more deceptive than an obvious fact. S. Holmes

      by Carnacki on Mon Dec 29, 2008 at 08:02:28 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Uhm... (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Newsie8200

        69 percent D voted Kerry, 69 percent D voted for McCain [sic]

        Which is why I said...

        However, it's also not necessarily true that race was the biggest issue causing Democrats to flock to McCain.  It may have been guns, it may have been religion, it may have been antipathy towards another "pencil-neck" like Gore and Kerry (who they also didn't vote for), it may have been any number of things.

        But you can't just compare to Kerry, see similar performance, and presume there's no racial component, because that also excludes the changed political reality of America between 2004 and 2008.  Nationally, Obama performed some 10 points better than Kerry; in West Virginia, he performed the same.  Obama gained 5 points on Kerry among white voters nationwide, but lost 1 point on Kerry among white voters in WV.  Why?

        Also the post he blockquoted did call for the Friedman correction.

        ...quoi?  The words "Thomas Friedman" appear in the blockquote, sure, but it's got nothing to do with a retraction.  And the post that was blockquoted doesn't call for any corrections from anyone, it excerpts amusing quotes from a satire lampooning the New York Times.

  •  You can refute what was posted in the comments (5+ / 0-)

    From Kos being just "lucky" to "Markos isn't that great of a writer" I really can't believe the whining that this diary has produced.  Sounds like you all have a case of the green eyed monster.  The work involved in keeping this blog up and running is probably a lot more than you all seem to comprehend.  From upgrading servers, to keeping things running during the election, to yearlykos, to holding our representatives feet to the fire, this blog has given us all a forum to voice our objections to the Bush administration, something that was hardly available when it first started.  Even the WaPo now allows comments, probably in a direct response to trying to keep up with the new media.  Sure, out of the thousands of words written, there are going to be mistakes, but since DK is a forum, the accountability comes in the comments.  If you are able to refute what was posted then you can make your case in the comments.  

    •  BDA in VA (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Dems2004, Jane Lew

      So expecting accuracy and credible information is because we're jealous? And we should only expect correct information in the comments where it'll be read by hundreds? Oooookkkaaay. If I wanted to stoop to your level I'd say someone has a clear case of butt kissing going on, but I'll try to hold myself above that...D'oh!

      There is nothing more deceptive than an obvious fact. S. Holmes

      by Carnacki on Mon Dec 29, 2008 at 08:04:41 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  "Whining" is a word I use sparingly (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      tryptamine, BDA in VA

      when commenting on others' posts, but in this case I agree with BDA.  

      dailykos is by no means perfect.  There are boring essays, ludicrous posts, and flat-out wrong statements, none of which get overlooked by the argus-eyed regulars on the site.  For me this adds to the flavor of the reading experience: often the correction posts (and responses to same) can be as entertaining and helpful as the original essay.

      But even good products contain occasional dross.  And hey, aren't we supposed to be doing our own fact-checking anyway, like good informed citizens?

      Electing a Republican is like hiring a carpenter who thinks hammers are evil.

      by dotalbon on Mon Dec 29, 2008 at 08:09:30 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  I remember the Linda Ellerbee slap (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Carnacki, CA Berkeley WV

    But I don't remember any correction or apology.  And that was Kos himself.

  •  Good one... (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Radical Faith, wvablue

    Thank you for this thread.  

    You'd be a lot cooler if you were from Minnesota!!!

    by mim5677 on Mon Dec 29, 2008 at 08:01:21 AM PST

  •  Errors of judgment, analysis, prediction or (7+ / 0-)

    opinion (if there is such a thing) are categorically different from errors of fact.  This diary improperly conflates the two.

  •  WHERE does Old Media have COMMENTS? Any (8+ / 1-)

    one registered can say whatever the hell they want

    IMMEDIATELY.

    where does that exist in Old Sold Out Media?

    give me a break.  

    is there group think, are there cliques

    YES. big fucking deal. grow up.

    you got 2 people, you got politics.

    you got 3 people, you got 6 different cliques possible.

    GROW UP.

    rmm.

    Yond Cassius has a lean and hungry look; He thinks too much: such men are dangerous

    by seabos84 on Mon Dec 29, 2008 at 08:06:17 AM PST

    •  seabos84 (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Margot, o the umanity, CA Berkeley WV

      Such a profoundly insightful comment and so useful to the discussion on standards!

      Yes, from the Charleston Gazette to the Washington Post you can leave comments. Are they moderated? Yes, but so is Daily Kos.

      There is nothing more deceptive than an obvious fact. S. Holmes

      by Carnacki on Mon Dec 29, 2008 at 08:18:32 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  standards are a function of cliques. the f'ing (0+ / 0-)

        fascist synchophantic crap on the front page and inside the NYT and WAPO ...

        how the hell does that compare to what is here?

        most of the non-bleating fact oriented articles here appear to be researched - and, just like the NYT and WAPO, I don't have the time to check it out.

        At least here I can skim the comments to see if there is some kind of uproar.

        finally, political / hitorical / economic writing / reporting is NOT like writing about scientific processes!

        It ain't even close.

        The tears and hair pulling cuz political writing about THE TRUTH ain't mathematical writing about the truth - ummm, whatever.

        THE TRUTH, like standards, are a function of the cliues. At least here the cliques aren't, yet, as bad as the elitist fucks calling themselves

        HA HA HA HA

        'journalists' in the sold out corporate media.

        rmm.

        Yond Cassius has a lean and hungry look; He thinks too much: such men are dangerous

        by seabos84 on Mon Dec 29, 2008 at 08:28:31 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

    •  Uprated (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      sadpanda, seabos84, jay w, DerAmi

      Post is hardly worthy of an HR, even if I don't necessarily agree with it.

      Who was Bush_Horror2004, anyway?

      by Dartagnan on Mon Dec 29, 2008 at 09:54:15 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  I just looked at 8 NYT online articles, WHERE can (0+ / 0-)

      I instantly comment?

      NO FUCKING PLACE.

      Kind of just like when I read the NYT 28 years ago and their rag fucking paper was full of bullshit about how 'people were saying', or some such similiar bullshit, Carter was weak and Raygun was strong.

      when they put comments on their lying ass articles, your arguements MIGHT mean something.

      rmm.

      Yond Cassius has a lean and hungry look; He thinks too much: such men are dangerous

      by seabos84 on Mon Dec 29, 2008 at 07:30:19 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  What I find remarkable is calling DK a news site. (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    JT88, o the umanity

    cherry picking facts to support a point of view for a particular diarist isn't news people, it's editorial writing.  Granted, given enough monkies typing a thousands of keyboards, DK sometimes get's its version of War and Peace, that is an insightful view of a current happening, but more times than not, the diaries are rants not news.

    "I do think it is kind of sad when everybody who owns a laptop thinks they are Thomas Paine" Redlief take on Helen Thomas, 2008

    by redlief on Mon Dec 29, 2008 at 08:13:42 AM PST

  •  meh, the FPers are human (0+ / 0-)

    and occasionally yes they do behave rather hyppocritically.

    Right now I'm chalking it up to boredom

  •  It is not just FPers (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Carnacki, Unduna

    it is also the widely read non FPers -  my area of expertise being finance and markets, I am still waiting for Jerome to come back and explain why he was wrong on his 'Countdown to... ' oil series (remember, he even started a $200 series)

    Bonddad has been quite wrong about the explanations of the credit default swap and generally the lending market.

    Don't get me wrong: Jerome does superlative work in his area of expertise - capital markets in general, wind and alternative energy in particular. But he was clearly wrong on the countdown to $100 oil (crude is trading around $40 today)

    As somebody pointed out - it is very difficult to come out and say you were wrong and why.

  •  You know, it's funny you should say this (8+ / 0-)

    since I'm here today, but the last time I was here (about a month or so ago)...someone made a comment about the South (again).  And yet, funnily enough there were key points in the South that showed up for Barack Obama, like Florida, and North Carolina.  It's like we're all branded Republicans down here.

    Do people who say that stupid shit realize how ignorant it is?  Or that just because a state failed to turn blue that the Dem votes cast aren't meaningless?  They contributed to the overall popular vote total. And furthermore, the fewer of us you alienate, the more of us there might be in future.

    Anyway, I hear ya.  :)

    Vote like your life depended on it.

    by xysea on Mon Dec 29, 2008 at 08:28:20 AM PST

  •  If we were right all the time... (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Loquatrix

    We would be Obama.

    (That was a joke.)

    Republican concept of labor: "Machines of Meat"

    by redtex on Mon Dec 29, 2008 at 08:36:13 AM PST

  •  Maybe the caffeine hasn't kicked in (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Mary Julia

    but I read those blockquotes differently -- not that the author(s) believed that Appalachians/Latinos/whatever were too racist to vote for a black dude, but rather that's what the pundits and the media Heathers believed and were going to adopt as their theme throughout the election. And the events of Nov. 4th enable us to say, like a sports fan whose team just laid a magnificent beatdown on their opponent, "Scoreboard, biatches!" :)

    I've been a member of the Dead Wrong in Public Society often enough to know that sometimes, you don't need an official "I fucked up" pronouncement from those who were incorrect in their assumptions.

    "Once you choose hope, anything's possible." ~Christopher Reeve

    by Cali Scribe on Mon Dec 29, 2008 at 08:37:44 AM PST

  •  To assume media is FAILING to correct the record (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Dave925

    is to assume their intentions are to report facts.  

    Surely by now everyone is aware that the truth is not the directive of corporate media.  Right?

    From print to cable, and yes even the internets, this orchestrated campaign of disinformation is paramount to any blogger's sense of morality.

    After a lifetime of turning on the BS filter, you should never let your guard down.  Even with like-minded individuals who share the same goals and aims.

    The media is not failing at all.  They are very successful at what they do.

  •  DailyKos is opinion-based not fact-based (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    tegrat

    I see no reason to apologize for having opinions - even if they are stupid.

    "Any clod can have the facts, but having opinions is an art." (Charles McCabe)

    •  Non-fiction? (0+ / 0-)

      Well, I have opinions. And it has been said that everyone has opinions. But a person's opinion is based upon information that is either fact or fiction.

      If someone presents information then it should be fact.Otherwise, please label your fiction accordingly.

      If you base your opinions on fiction and not fact then why should I value your opinion?

      Take President Bush.... PLEASE!

      by DerAmi on Mon Dec 29, 2008 at 09:29:15 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  Carnacki got schooled (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    onanyes, TFinSF, Campfire30

    DHinMI makes a much better argument than Carnacki and shouldn't correct.  It's kind of important that people know which parts of the country have this kind of problem.  That's the only way to overcome it.

  •  Props to Honesty (0+ / 0-)

    Props to the subby for saying what needs to be said.  If this site wants to remain powerful now that we have a Democratic government they have to move from angry liberals to honest, and thoughtful discussion of our shared liberal ideas for the country.

  •  To conclude... (0+ / 0-)

    At least to me, this diary to me represents an empty feud between two old-time Kossacks, utterly pointless and silly. Not the first such feud, not the last. Meh.

    •  To clarify... (0+ / 0-)

      were silly things said and not retracted? Probably yes. Is it worth a rec-list slot? Not in my opinion, especially with all the mess in Gaza, and the media shamelessly trying to drag Obama into the Blagojevich scandal, though you may decide differently...

  •  Yeah, DHinMI is easily the worst front-pager. (6+ / 0-)

    He's a reactionary, defensive, spiteful person who regularly behaves like a spoiled child when he should be setting a good example for the rest of us to follow. Some of his comments would be hide-rated if he weren't so high-ranking.

    To a tee, I admire all of the front pagers and I respect their good work in the difficult task of keeping a good progressive blog. All of them, that is, except for that one joker. I don't even bother replying to him anymore.

    But DHinMI is what he is. The rest of the front-pagers, and Kos himself, do a pretty good job with this site, at least in terms of the quality of their posts. (They do a not-so-hot job fostering a cohesive community spirit.) I don't think Carnacki should bash all the front-pagers with the same blunderbuss.

    •  But Whether I Was Right or Wrong? (0+ / 0-)

      Apparently doesn't matter to you.  

      People more concerned with who's nice than who gets stuff right aren't my audience.  They're just the blog equivalent of Broderites.  

      "Dignified people, without a whimsical streak, almost never offer fresh insights, in economics or anywhere else." Paul Krugman

      by Dana Houle on Mon Dec 29, 2008 at 11:09:39 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  DHinMI (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Dems2004, The Sinistral

        Speaking of Broderites, you're definitely one of the new villagers.

        It doesn't matter to you that the white vote was the same here as nationally. That hasn't given you pause that your smear of the entire region was wrong. No, you've doubled downed and said everything you stand 100 percent behind what you wrote.

        Being a villager - new or old - means never admitting when you're wrong.

        There is nothing more deceptive than an obvious fact. S. Holmes

        by Carnacki on Mon Dec 29, 2008 at 03:07:32 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

    •  high-ranking (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Dems2004

      is in the eye of the beholder, apparently.

      Seems to be a difference between a site administrator and a FP contributing editor, especially since the dkosopedia seems to make that distinction.

      I'm not an anarchist, but it would be good if people started realizing the difference between political propaganda and the truth. --John Lennon

      by o the umanity on Mon Dec 29, 2008 at 11:21:18 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  Wait until (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      The Sinistral

      he calls you a dumb scumbag.

      Oh Joy!!

  •  Lies, Damn Lies, and Statistics (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    sadpanda, wvablue

    Both sides here have a point they can defend using statistics.  Both are certain the other is wrong.

    Both are right. And both are wrong.

    To paint a whole region with the broad brush of racism does not seem to be fully supported by the facts Carnacki sights.

    To suggest racism doesn't play a part in the politics of the region isn't fully supported either when you look at the facts DH decides to use.

    Bottom line - as a country we are growing up - slowly.  Racism still plays too large a part in our politics (living in the south I see it every day), but Carnacki is right to be offended by such a broad brush stereotype.

    Cheers.

    Progress on our issues - the only thing that really matters.

    by Stranger in a strange land on Mon Dec 29, 2008 at 09:37:44 AM PST

  •  perhaps opinion is being confused with facts? (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    sadpanda

    I'm not sure, but it seems that a lot of these "errors" are errors of speculation, which should be corrected by the commenters first and then by a diary that expands upon the correction (like this one).  Seems to me that most front pagers are taking huge risks by speculating about this or that topic (and maybe they should be more clear that it is speculation, not factual reporting, on occasion), opening themselves up to plenty of criticism, but to call them errors seems to miss the point a bit.

  •  Too big for britches (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Carnacki, wvablue

    or something. Maybe it's human nature, but the Kos "experts" often seem just as stand-offish as the MSM "experts." And I'm sick of all the snarks that make it to the rec list. Not everyone is making $500K a year at a job that allows him to do nothing but write snotty DailyKos posts.

  •  Racism in West Virginia (5+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    GOTV, IM, brenda, condorcet, Campfire30

    DHinMI is right, and Carnacki is wrong.

    As I have noted, West Virginia had the second highest levels in the country of people who said that race was an important factor and voted against Obama (14.3%), second only to Louisiana (14.8). During the primaries, West Virginia had the highest levels of people voting against Obama and reporting that race was a factor.

    What's notable (and why DHinMI's fears that racism would cost Obama the election were exaggerated, but not wrong) is that the economic crisis and dislike for the Republican Party caused racists in West Virginia to vote for Obama anyway. The proportion of people voting for Obama who said race was a factor jumped from 9% in the primary to 39% on Nov. 4.

    Of course, all of this doesn't necessarily mean that West Virginia and similar states are more racist than the rest of the country. It's possible that racists in West Virginia are simply more willing to admit their racism to a pollster than elsewhere.

    But denying that racism exists, and that it's an insult to Appalachia to mention it, must be rejected. And demanding a correction from those of us who prove that racism is real cannot be justified.

    Obama Politics (www.obamapolitics.com)

    by JohnKWilson on Mon Dec 29, 2008 at 10:19:04 AM PST

    •  JohnKWilson (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Dems2004, condorcet, CA Berkeley WV

      I never denied racism isn't real and stated so in this diary. He was wrong to say it was more of a factor here than anywhere else and the same level of white vote in West Virginia as the national level proves he was wrong.

      There is nothing more deceptive than an obvious fact. S. Holmes

      by Carnacki on Mon Dec 29, 2008 at 10:21:40 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Equal Amounts of Racism? (0+ / 0-)

        To claim that racism is equal, everywhere, just seems obviously wrong to me. Surely there are state differences in the levels of self-reported racism, even if it may exist in every state to some degree.

        Also, the levels of white voting don't strike me as a good surrogate for measuring racism. Doesn't that mean that you're saying that the states with low levels of white voters for Obama are more racist?

        I think a key issue here is that some states are more pro-Democratic than others, and West Virginia used to be a moderately pro-Democratic state. The shifts from the previous election are a better measure of racism than what you're proposing.

        In any case, the fact that you disagree with such an approach doesn't justify a demand for a correction.

        Obama Politics (www.obamapolitics.com)

        by JohnKWilson on Mon Dec 29, 2008 at 10:30:44 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  John (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Dems2004, CA Berkeley WV

          The vote outcome in the primary as opposed to other races was a main rationale used by DHinMI to call it racist so by his own standard when the vote outcome was no different than the national level he is wrong. I didn't set the standard, he did.

          I apologize for my hostile tone.

          But looking at the trends is clear that more than race IS the factor for the state turning more red at the national level because this goes back to 2000 and continued through this election but actually did not get worse this election than in 2004 when it comes to vote outcomes among white voters.

          I'd point out that AA leaders have defended WVians by saying they are not more racist than elsewhere, but more honest. But I have too much to do to find the link now and I'm through with commenting for today. I'd say the national number, while you may not like the implications, shows that to be true.

          There is nothing more deceptive than an obvious fact. S. Holmes

          by Carnacki on Mon Dec 29, 2008 at 10:56:54 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

    •  John (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Dems2004, CA Berkeley WV

      BTW, your own diary was wrong too, ignoring exit polls in many other states where the impact of race was asked.

      There is nothing more deceptive than an obvious fact. S. Holmes

      by Carnacki on Mon Dec 29, 2008 at 10:23:40 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Which States? (0+ / 0-)

        Which states had exit polls with higher levels of race? Please don't call me wrong without offering evidence.

        Obama Politics (www.obamapolitics.com)

        by JohnKWilson on Mon Dec 29, 2008 at 10:26:24 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Why not? (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Dems2004, CA Berkeley WV

          You had no trouble calling West Virginia the most racist state without showing all the data.

          Indeed, did you look at the exit polling from the general election or are you sticking by your incomplete and assholish post?

          There is nothing more deceptive than an obvious fact. S. Holmes

          by Carnacki on Mon Dec 29, 2008 at 10:31:54 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  I Showed All the Data (0+ / 0-)

            In fact, I put together a spreadsheet for the primaries and one for the general election providing all the data. So what is incomplete? What state had a higher level of self-reported racism in the primary than West Virginia? Tell me.

            Obama Politics (www.obamapolitics.com)

            by JohnKWilson on Mon Dec 29, 2008 at 10:39:47 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  JohnKWilson (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Dems2004, CA Berkeley WV

              What had the highest in the general election - oh wait, it's fine to call West Virginia the most racist on this site. I forgot that it's wrong to disagree with that assessment.

              There is nothing more deceptive than an obvious fact. S. Holmes

              by Carnacki on Mon Dec 29, 2008 at 10:40:50 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  An Answer (0+ / 0-)

                In the general election, the highest levels of those saying race was an important factor and voting against Obama were in Louisiana, with West Virginia second. If you look at those saying race was any factor and Obama voting against Obama, West Virginia was third behind Louisiana and Alaska. Now, some states didn't get this question in the general election or the primaries, but among the primaries, West Virginia had the highest responses to the question.

                So that's your answer. I'm still waiting for you to provide any evidence for your smear accusing me of getting my facts wrong.

                Obama Politics (www.obamapolitics.com)

                by JohnKWilson on Mon Dec 29, 2008 at 10:49:58 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  A correction (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Campfire30

                  I meant to write "voting against Obama" not "Obama voting against Obama."

                  My larger complaint, Carnacki, is that you seem to assume that anybody voting for a black candidate can't be a racist, and that states can be ranked for racism by the levels of whites voting for Obama rather than the self-reported responses about race. That's just too simplistic.

                  Obama Politics (www.obamapolitics.com)

                  by JohnKWilson on Mon Dec 29, 2008 at 10:53:49 AM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  John (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    Dems2004

                    No, I agree with you. I don't think a vote for McCain was necessarily a racist vote. But that was the standard established by DHinMI when writing about it in the primary. He ignored all of the other factors such as the amount of campaigning by Clinton and the lack of campaigning here by Obama to say it was about racism. I'm just making the point that by his own metric, he was wrong.

                    There is nothing more deceptive than an obvious fact. S. Holmes

                    by Carnacki on Mon Dec 29, 2008 at 03:03:10 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

    •  One Correction: I Always Thought Obama Would Win (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      IM, CA Berkeley WV

      I always thought whoever got the nomination--him or Clinton--would win the general.  However, as I wrote in a long essay before Super Tuesday, I thought Obama would win big, bring along more Dems, and that it could possibly be a transforming election like 1932.

      Other than that quibble, I agree with most of your points.  The only disagreement I have is the meaning of the 9 percent to 39 percent change.  I think race had a bigger factor among white Dem primary voters in WV than most places, but nowhere near as big a factor as with the general election electorate (which obviously included a lot more Republicans and independents).  

      "Dignified people, without a whimsical streak, almost never offer fresh insights, in economics or anywhere else." Paul Krugman

      by Dana Houle on Mon Dec 29, 2008 at 11:19:01 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Comparing the Race Factor (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        DHinMI, GOTV

        Here was the self-reported race factor in the exit polls in West Virginia:

        Primary: 21% race was a factor, 9% voted Obama, 18.9% net racism.
        Nov. 4: 31% race was a factor, 39% voted Obama, 18.9% net racism.

        So, the proportion of people admitting to race being a factor increased substantially, but the number of those voting against Obama stayed the same. These numbers don't indicate that Democrats are less racist than Republicans and independents in West Virginia, but it does show that racism was not the sole factor in voting, and many racist Democrats voted for Obama.

        Obama Politics (www.obamapolitics.com)

        by JohnKWilson on Mon Dec 29, 2008 at 11:40:20 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

    •  There it is. (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      DemFromCT

      But denying that racism exists, and that it's an insult to Appalachia to mention it, must be rejected.

      I know as well as anyone, and much better than many, how frustrating it is when some numb-brained, uncreative, unintelligent, and thoroughly uninteresting person assumes she is better than you, simply because you are from Appalachia and she is not. I know that,  because I am from West Virginia, I grew up in a series of rented houses, trailers, and - for eleven weeks in 1993 - a tent... and I am awesome and intelligent. :)

      I'm not an analyst of voting behavior, and honestly, I'm not great with numbers. Without further review, I wouldn't swear to the truth of the data in the above comment, but it does sound very reasonable to me.

      The point I want to underscore, though, is that it is unhelpful to consider it an insult when someone wants to examine or address racism in Appalachia.

      The high school I attended had one Black student... until she moved away. I don't think it's completely unreasonable to think that people who grow up in that sort of environment might tend to become more racist than people who grow up around people of various races. When you pair that with polling data, such as the data mentioned above, it does suggest certain motivations that voters are likely to have had. That information can be used by future campaigns, voters, educators, anyone else who studies such things or uses such information. Altogether, this kind of information can help us to understand - and thereby influence - different regions of the country, as a whole.

      This has to be kept separate from how you interact with individual human beings.

      When you meet someone from West Virginia, you should never assume that they are racist. You have no idea. You just met them. If you make and act on an assumption about them, you run the risk of showing your ass. But when you're talking about voting behavior, or other social statistics, you have to look at the big picture and react to what emerges... without tangling it up with personal feelings and anecdotal evidence.

      ~~~ Successfully electing Barack Obama is not an excuse to stop participating in government. It's an encouraging success that we should continue to build on.

      by Campfire30 on Mon Dec 29, 2008 at 03:29:27 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  FLAME WAR! (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    wvablue, jarbyus

    Lest we have forgotten our sociological and statistical principles: CORRELATION DOES NOT EQUAL CAUSATION! And 41% in 2004 doesn't mean the same 41% in 2008. And a trend away from a Democratic candidate in a region that has trended that way for some time could have very little to do with race.  Just because many of these voters would’ve flirted with voting for a woman who was solidly tied back to a time when they were more comfortably associated with Democrats but not some other egghead liberal doesn’t necessarily imply racism as the primary motivator. Perhaps Clinton would’ve shown the same advantage over Biden, had he been the other top contender. Wouldn’t surprise me. I feel like this is a clear "who knows" until solid sociological analysis shows otherwise.

    I want to rip my hair out over this asinine pissing contest.  These numbers wars are meaningless without a much bigger analysis of what's behind them. That endeavor would take a team of experts with time to conduct needed interviews, polling, and statistical analysis.

    Racism is complex, and I suspect people's voting choices are much more so.

  •  None of us can claim to be the 'fly on the wall' (0+ / 0-)

    and privy to the facts.  What we know and what we say here is simply a translation through the filter of our own beliefs.  No better examples of that are the mischaracterization of facts we see daily in print and this blizzard of electrons we call the Internet.  We might be better served to see the communication of our beliefs here and elsewhere as an airing of what we think we know and hope in the end the facts will be worth passing on to our kids and our neighbors kids.

    Beer, politics & pizza - must have died and gone to heaven.

    by mrgardon on Mon Dec 29, 2008 at 10:24:09 AM PST

  •  Journalism? (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Silverbird

    There are no journalists left in the US, just big fat profit driven corporations...

    I love the smell of napalm in the morning

    by Jazzenterprises on Mon Dec 29, 2008 at 10:30:25 AM PST

  •  I believe what we have is corporate media (0+ / 0-)

    not traditional media.  Decades ago, the media worked to bring facts to the public and uncover the truth. Today, they work to promote corporate interests and keeping the public entertained.

    "The very scenario that the Americans feared the most came to pass because of their intervention to prevent it."

    by dancewater on Mon Dec 29, 2008 at 10:31:34 AM PST

    •  Decades ago the media was in bed with the (0+ / 0-)

      government even more than now.  A sexy example is the affairs JFK had.  Everyone knew but it was hush hush on the QT. FDR controlled the press except the Hearst papers and they had their own agenda.  You want to learn about real corporate control read about the Hearst newspaper chains.  We always think our generation is the best or the worst.  

      I belong to no organized party. I am a Democrat. Will Rogers

      by thestructureguy on Mon Dec 29, 2008 at 11:43:27 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  I am glad they ignored JFK's marital (0+ / 0-)

        infidelities.  I consider them irrelevant, to anyone but his family.  

        I wasn't around for FDR times.

        "The very scenario that the Americans feared the most came to pass because of their intervention to prevent it."

        by dancewater on Mon Dec 29, 2008 at 03:10:18 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

  •  Ummm (0+ / 0-)

    Being wrong about a matter of opinion and being wrong about a matter of fact are totally different things.  People don't NEED to apologizes for one to retain their legitimacy.  

    OK - maybe one exception.  Eveyone who said Bush is or would be a good president should apologize to all of us now, because that really is not objectively reasonable.

    I am the typo queen. Sorry in advance.

    by sadpanda on Mon Dec 29, 2008 at 10:33:56 AM PST

  •  Is Meteor Blades in charge of all front pagers? (0+ / 0-)

    Seriously, I am asking because I don't know. Or does Meteor Blades correct his errors and let others handle their own? Because if the later is true, sure maybe he should criticize his fellow front pages as well, but hypocrite is a tad strong in that case, isn't it? Because you specifically point to Meteor Blades post about newspaper, but you are conspicuously generic when you point to the errors, using the generic "front pagers". Hypocrite is a strong word, it shouldn't be thrown around when the word you are looking for is inconsistent. Can you point to any posts of which Meteor Blades was responsible that had errors he failed to correct?

    •  I think age and wisdom contribute to this about (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Dems2004

      corrections. I dont' think Carnacki is suggesting Meteor Blades  did not correct something, jsut pointing out how that recent diary was about TradMed lack of corrections. DHinMI is 42, Meteor Blades is 62

      Pray for the dead and fight like hell for the living~~Mother Jones

      by CA Berkeley WV on Mon Dec 29, 2008 at 11:55:34 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  Grant (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Dems2004

      In this case, he knew of the errors, including the simple clear cut geographical ones, and knew nothing was done to correct them by the front pagers. In that instance it's like the pot calling the kettle black since he knew the errors occurred on the front page of the site and went uncorrected and not any errors he made personally.

      There is nothing more deceptive than an obvious fact. S. Holmes

      by Carnacki on Mon Dec 29, 2008 at 02:51:17 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  I am not in charge of all the FPers ... (0+ / 0-)

      ...and I only run corrections (and sometimes apologies) of my own mistakes.

      Americans do not like to think of themselves as aggressors, but raw aggression is what took place in Iraq. - John Prados

      by Meteor Blades on Tue Dec 30, 2008 at 01:16:53 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  You are forgeting something here (0+ / 0-)

    WV, KY, OK and TN had the highest % of people openly claiming they would not vote for a black man.

    I mean the % of white vote isn't the only metric that refers to racism.

    Further, during the democratic primaries people could afford to be racist (and sexist) because they could choose between two fairly similar candidates.

    Against McCain/Palin and with the backdrop of republican economy meltdown and corruption racism was a luxury many could not afford to stand by.

    •  As opposed to the nuts at the Ohio Palin rally? (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Dems2004, Carnacki

      And that was Strongsville, outside Cleveland, no where near the mythical Appalachia.

      Pray for the dead and fight like hell for the living~~Mother Jones

      by CA Berkeley WV on Mon Dec 29, 2008 at 11:50:11 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  which poll is that? (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Dems2004, Carnacki

      Most polls asked if race is a factor for the vote, but I don't remember seeing a state by state poll asking specifically if you would vote for a black man. Can you tell me which poll that is? I'd love to look at those numbers in more detail.

      Either way, this is a very difficult question to poll. There are reasons why different states have different levels of being willing to admit to prejudices. From what I understand, the most accurate way to measure prejudice is to ask people if they think their neighbors are willing to do X (instead of asking them if they are).

  •  Two word solution: (0+ / 0-)

    Daily Edscan

    ;D

  •  I rather likes seeing the racist and (6+ / 0-)

    regionalj prejudice on dKos.  It reminded me, in case I started to forget, the the so-called left wing is no better than the right wing with it comes to respecting people they differ with.  And the left wing can be just as narrow minded.  As we head for an Obama adminsitration, it was good to have that reminder that what we need is democracy, not one party rule of either party.  I am from Kentucky, and I disctinly remember the ignorance of the state and region passing as wit or knowledge on this blog from people who hardly ever set foot in the places they denigrated.

    ...do the elites...actually believe that society can be destroyed by anyone except those who lead them? - John Ralston Saul -

    by Silverbird on Mon Dec 29, 2008 at 11:21:32 AM PST

  •  With you here, Carnacki. (5+ / 0-)

    .

    The superciliousness "why-can't-everybody-be-like-me" air about a few of our Front Pagers (most are great, and not like that, mind you), not the least of which are Kos and DHinMI, comes from the same emotional core as most of the cringe-inducing Country Club Republicans I've known.

    bg
    _____________________________________________

    "We in the gloam, old buddy," he said, "We definitely right in the middle of it." -Larry Brown

    by BenGoshi on Mon Dec 29, 2008 at 11:23:16 AM PST

  •  DHinMI? (3+ / 0-)

    I personally won't  be holding my breath waiting for integrity from that one.

  •  Why hasn't there been a storm of diaires (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Dems2004

    about Charlie Rangle? Why are we not attacking him as we have others? Yes there is hypocrisy on Kos. It seems it's justified some how when it's our side doing it.  Look at FISA and Obama.  Many were critical but the rationalization of it by even more was amazing.  Same with Warren.  

    Where you stand depends on where you sit.

    I belong to no organized party. I am a Democrat. Will Rogers

    by thestructureguy on Mon Dec 29, 2008 at 11:40:04 AM PST

  •  2 or 3 times, I have urged corrections for FPers (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Dems2004, Carnacki, wvablue

    FPers do not acknowledge that they say anything wrong -- and, if they ever do, they say it was inconsequential and probably not worth the time they devoted to replying to my comments.

    Coming Soon -- to an Internet connection near you: Armisticeproject.org

    by FischFry on Mon Dec 29, 2008 at 11:50:43 AM PST

  •  Hypocrocrisy or Delusion? (5+ / 0-)

    Contained within Adam B's Front Page Diary Bloggers and Caroline Kennedy is Adam B's immodest claim:

    the front-pagers at DailyKos, and the thing that everyone here has in common is that they earned their spots here.

    Either that, or for some quirky reason, Markos likes them. I have no problem with that. There is too much offered by those who make this place worthwhile to be terribly bothered by those on the easily ignored Front Page. My comment about Adam B's importance to me.

    Carnacki: either way, you have exposed the soft underbelly of DailyKos. I don't think Kos really cares too much about DailyKos anymore - except as a cash cow.

    Gen. Shinseki, Secretary of Veterans Affairs. Excellent. Now hire for Sec. of Humanity, Decency, and Civility: noweasels

    by llbear on Mon Dec 29, 2008 at 11:56:15 AM PST

  •  Hypocrisy in carnacki's diary (5+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    DHinMI, GOTV, Boris Godunov, IM, Campfire30

    It's kind of odd that you would condemn DHinMI for making generalizations about white voters in West Virginia, while at the same time making your own generalizations about white voters nationally.  Yes, it is true that white voters in West Virginia voted for McCain/against Obama in roughly the same numbers as white voters nationally.  However, it's intellectually dishonest for you to point this out without putting the numbers in context.

    According to the same exit polls you cited, West Virginia voters were far more likely than voters nationally to cite race as a factor in their vote: 31% of West Virginia voters cited race as a factor, and 22% of them cited it as an important factor.  This compares with only 19% of voters nationally citing race as a factor, and 9% citing it as an important factor.  Moreover, while voters nationally who cited race as a factor skewed toward Obama (53-45%), West Virginia voters who cited race as a factor voted overwhelmingly for McCain (59-39%).  Why the discrepancy?  My guess is that nationally, a lot of African-American voters cited race as a factor because they were motivated at least in part by the symbolic importance of America electing its first African-American president.  In West Virginia, with a much whiter population, the percentage of people citing race as a factor was more than 50% higher, and it was skewed heavily against the black candidate and in favor of the white candidate.

    I'm sure there's a valid discussion to be had about whether white McCain voters in other parts of the country were motivated at least in part by latent feelings of racism, but it seems obvious to me, if the exit polls are to be believed, that whites in West Virginia have a bigger problem with it.  I don't see any need for a front-page correction by DHinMI, and I think you owe an apology.

  •  delurking, and late to the action... (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Dems2004, Carnacki

    ...but here are a couple posts i made on what i call "the great convergence"- the blogs becoming no better than the corporate media. during the primaries, i increasingly found myself defending the clintons from shrill, dishonest smears, including from some of this site's fpers. and i don't particularly like the clintons.

    http://www.theleftcoaster.com/...

    http://www.theleftcoaster.com/...

  •  The accusation is too broad (0+ / 0-)

    taking several DKos articles which made wrong election analyses/predictions and countering them with one article posted today.

    That the DKos election articles were not corrected is not equivalent to the thousands of uncorrected mistakes made in the MSM. Therefore the slam against today's Front Page article is unfair.

    This above all: to thine own self be true...-WS

    by Agathena on Mon Dec 29, 2008 at 12:55:05 PM PST

  •  there is a difference (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Dems2004, vets74

    between a factual error and a prediction that turns out to be incorrect. this is especially true during election seasons when lots of people make lots of different predictions and use data from various sources to back up their prediction. factual errors (like using an incorrect statistic) require corrections, whether they be in the traditional media or blogs. bad predictions by a pundit can be admitted to, but i wouldn't put the same weight on that.

    Under conditions of peace, the warlike man attacks himself. -Nietzsche

    by evolushawn on Mon Dec 29, 2008 at 01:12:27 PM PST

    •  evolushawn (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Dems2004

      I saw it as a statement of fact by him. But if it's an error, call it an error of omission. He made an extraordinary claim and such claims need to be backed up with extraordinary evidence. The fact the final vote outcome disproved his theory, considering how egregious his claim was, places a responsibility on him to follow up with the correct information. He is doubling down.

      The other errors of simple, basic geography are better examples of uncorrected front page posts, but I don't see anyone rushing out to correct them either when they're pointed out.

      There is nothing more deceptive than an obvious fact. S. Holmes

      by Carnacki on Mon Dec 29, 2008 at 02:48:24 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  Thanks for this (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Dems2004, Carnacki
    I got a little tired of seeing Oklahoma as Appalachia, which makes other FP content a little suspect.
  •  The front page has been a dissapointment.... (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Dems2004, Carnacki, the girl

    ...on so many levels in recent times.  A paid political staffer should never be giving political opinions on this site as an "impartial blogger".  In my opinion, the front pagers should never be anonymous and always disclose their political affiliations.  For example....

  •  great diary my friend (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Dems2004

    and spot on!

    Barack Obama 44th President of the United States

    by BlueFranco on Mon Dec 29, 2008 at 02:34:04 PM PST

  •  DHinMI was right (0+ / 0-)

    Your comparison of the poll showing 41% of whites in WV voting for Obama with the national percent white voting for Obama is an invalid comparison.  WV is less than 5% black compared with 12% nationally.  Obama would have to carry more whites in WV to carry the state than he would for an "average" state.  Also, for McCain to win by 16%, no more than 39% of WV whites could have voted for Obama.  While both 43% and 39% are within the margin of error for the poll, it is a mistake to use the poll to argue that WV is not more racist.  Other evidence, the actual vote, indicates otherwise.  No apology is warrented.

    eschew obfuscation

    by jimG on Mon Dec 29, 2008 at 03:09:52 PM PST

  •  *Yawn* (0+ / 0-)

    Anything else from a year ago you want to gripe about?

    scanner something mushroom cloud. -9.25 -8.92

    by el zilcho on Tue Dec 30, 2008 at 12:16:02 PM PST

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