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We're going to be hearing a lot about a new poll conducted by Zogby that shows "57 percent agreed with a statement that Congress should start over."

Of the more than 2,500 people surveyed from Jan. 29 to Feb. 1, 57 percent agreed with a statement that Congress should start over -- which is exactly what Republicans are demanding and what President Barack Obama insists he will not do.

Moreover, 56.4 percent of people indicated they would prefer Congress to tackle healthcare reform on a step-by-step basis, not take the comprehensive approach as embodied in the legislation that passed the House and Senate last year but has stalled fore the past month.

Take this with a block of salt: it's Zogby, as Markos has said, "the least credible pollster in the world, one that I've long-ago learned to ignore whether I like his results or not." A far more credible poll taken just last week for ABC/WaPo showed that two-thirds of those polled want comprehensive reform.

Republicans are going to play this one to the hilt. Chuck Grassley is already at it, telling reporters today "the chances of returning to health reform 'are not very good unless the White House is willing to start over.'" Starting over, as Dems know very well, is not an option, regardless of what Zogby and the Republicans say.

But assume that this Zogby poll does show one thing, something that we pretty much already knew, that the electorate is worn down and frustrated with the process. Obama and Congressional Dems still need to hold firm and get this done, through reconciliation in the Senate on a sidecar bill that will clear the way for the House to pass the Senate bill. House leaders have said again and again that they can pass the bill when they know there's a fix. There's support in the Senate for reconciliation.

As for public support, there's frustration now, but finishing the job is pretty much the only way to dissipate that. The perception that Dems are unable to act is what got us into this mess. Passing the bill without the Republicans is both the reality of how it has to happen, and a political opportunity for Dems, if they're willing to make it one. They can get a two-fer out of it--pass the bill without them and get credit for getting it done and demonstrate to the American electorate that the only way to make progress against the obstructionist Republicans is to roll over them.

Originally posted to Daily Kos on Tue Feb 16, 2010 at 04:22 PM PST.

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Comment Preferences

  •  This is not snark or rhetorical: (4+ / 0-)

    Why can't we start again?

    •  If you start from scratch, (16+ / 0-)

      the GOoPers (and DINOs like Ben Nelson) will just seek to kill the new bill just like they killed the last one.  They have no interest whatsoever in helping struggling middle-class Americans, so Democrats must use whatever tools at their disposal to get this done.  Passing the Senate bill plus a sidecar reconciliation fix seems to be the best way to accomplish this ASAP IMO.

      Barack Obama in the Oval Office: There's a black man who knows his place.

      by Greasy Grant on Tue Feb 16, 2010 at 04:32:05 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  What's the point of starting again? (10+ / 0-)

      There's no virtue in starting over unless there's absolutely nothing of value in the present bills worth keeping.  

      Of course, nobody polled is saying that there's NOTHING in the bills to be liked.  

      So it's merely frustrated people; probably a greater percentage would call for the entirety of congress to resign so we can start over with new people, too.

      Subsidies without cost controls, regulatory reform means that citizens get a little more awful insurance at a huge cost to taxpayers. Like Part D but worse.

      by Inland on Tue Feb 16, 2010 at 04:36:38 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  That's really a pretty silly argument (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        WillR

        We've shelved plenty of legislation with features people liked, to come back later and take it on from a different tack.

        Now, starting from scratch means we'd likely get nothing done for six years, which is a great reason to oppose doing so, but that's not the same as saying "Well, if there's anything of value in the bill it doesn't make sense to start over".

        There was a lot Kennedy liked in Medicare Part D - but he still wanted to ditch it and start over after it got back from the House.

        "If you have to wave dead babies in the air to make your point, you haven't got one" My Mom

        by JesseCW on Tue Feb 16, 2010 at 04:41:44 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  You're just adding slogans, not strategy. (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Judge Moonbox, CalliopeIrjaPearl

          If there's features people like, then why not a) name those features and b) enact them?

          What is this "differen tack" you are thinking of which would justify shelving features people like?  What's the gain?  So we can enact features people DON'T like?  

          You know, aside from getting rid of everything passed so far, "startng over" has zippo meaning...it's a certain death of the current bills with nothing to take its place, which is why the republicans like the phrase so much.

          Subsidies without cost controls, regulatory reform means that citizens get a little more awful insurance at a huge cost to taxpayers. Like Part D but worse.

          by Inland on Tue Feb 16, 2010 at 04:56:31 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  I'm not sloganeering, I'm talking about (0+ / 0-)

            your sloppy "logic".

            You're claiming that it catagorically doesn't make sense to scrap a bill if it's got anything good in it - it often does.

            Now, if you want to have a conversation about why it's a bad idea to try to "start over from scratch" in this case, we can do that.

            That's not, however, your original assertion.

            "If you have to wave dead babies in the air to make your point, you haven't got one" My Mom

            by JesseCW on Tue Feb 16, 2010 at 06:03:19 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

        •  Let's say Obama DID start over. (0+ / 0-)

          Wouldn't the Grassleys turn around and say that shows his lack of persistence?

          I would also like to know: How many of the people who say Obama should start over know that Sarah Palin was lying when she talked of "Death Panels?" What percentage believed this accusation that's as vicious as it is unsubstantiated? I think a cross-tabulation would show that if we debunked the lies, the people would follow.

          Greg McKendry, Linda Kraeger, Dr. George Tiller, Steven Johns. Victims of Wingnut violence

          by Judge Moonbox on Tue Feb 16, 2010 at 06:12:00 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Absolutely (0+ / 0-)

            And the absolute best we'd get out of it is some kind of completely unsustainable high-risk pool.

            That doesn't justify categorical statements that it's never a good idea to start over if you've got a bill which contains some elements people like.

            The bill is chock full of really noxious provisions - loopholes on recission you could drive a truck through, a seriously underfunded individual mandate and no employer mandate, a serious lack of regulation when it comes to the old-fashioned game of stalling approval for procedures, taxing ordinary peoples benefits (cramming down coverage) instead of taxing the Rich, the list goes on.

            The fact is, I'm willing to bet 80% + of the population would want to start over if we thought it could result in fixing the massive flaws this bill contains.

            Hell, wouldn't you, if you thought it could work?

            "If you have to wave dead babies in the air to make your point, you haven't got one" My Mom

            by JesseCW on Tue Feb 16, 2010 at 06:37:46 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

      •  Starting again and starting (0+ / 0-)

        down a completely different path toward the goal of universal health care insurance might just get us to the goal .
        Picking up the rule book from the Netherlands and putting it on the table would be my dream .
        The republicans had their chance , they were asked to work with us to come up with a new system that would work , they failed and caused any and all forward movement to be next to impossible .

        If you strike a match and light a fuse , don't be surprised when something goes boom .

        by indycam on Tue Feb 16, 2010 at 04:57:52 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  IMO, there are two acceptable alternatives (0+ / 0-)

          to the current system which have actually been shown to work in practice.

          Single payer, which is cheaper, and heavily regulated mandatory private insurance as in NL and some other EU nations.

          Neither has anything in particular to do with the mandatory private insurance with the appearance of regulation (if you don't look too closely at it) which is the legislation currently under consideration.

          Looking for intelligent energy policy alternatives? Try here.

          by alizard on Tue Feb 16, 2010 at 06:08:28 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

      •  And "starting over" (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        phonegery

        just gives the right more time to make meaningless noise, ramp up the fear and get paid by insurance industry lobbyists. It squares the chances that nothing will come out of this, and that everything else will be put on the back burner – which is exactly what the Republicans want: nothing.

        Rather than "starting over" (what — a friggin' YEAR isn't long enough?), they should bulldoze this thing over Chuck Grassley's prone body.

        Stop Rob "The Job Outsourcer" Portman. Jennifer Brunner for Senate http://www.jenniferbrunner.com/

        by anastasia p on Tue Feb 16, 2010 at 05:05:04 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  2 months ago - you all wanted to "start again" (0+ / 0-)

        including Markos. "Kill the bill" was the hit song in the left blogosphere. What happened since then to change your minds?

        As R. W. Emerson said, "Fear springs from ignorance."

        by healthy on Tue Feb 16, 2010 at 05:23:00 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  And I"m still not sure about it at all. (0+ / 0-)

          Just saying that "starting over" implies that killing this bill just naturally lays the ground for something else positive and not the status quo.  It's not the case.

          Subsidies without cost controls, regulatory reform means that citizens get a little more awful insurance at a huge cost to taxpayers. Like Part D but worse.

          by Inland on Tue Feb 16, 2010 at 05:25:38 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

    •  because with the same cast of characters... (3+ / 0-)

      we get the same results. Going back to square one means waiting for the next session at least, with hopefully, some new democrats and maybe a handful of sane republicans. Or, which is more likely, waiting, presumably, until some democratic strength returns to congress after a, presumable, successful Obama re-election.

      In other words, the future, even in the short term, is way too uncertain.

    •  Delay the bill means kill the bill (4+ / 0-)

      We already have a bill. Let's pass that one.

      We spent 13 months debating the current bill and in the mean time nothing else got done in DC. Do you want to spend another 13 months debating the same bill?

      •  Wait - nothing got done? (0+ / 0-)

        We didn't pass a stimulous package, the Fair Pay Act, the James Bird/Mathew Shepard Act, massively expand SCHIP, pass a moderate but needed credit card bill...

        I dreamed all that?

        "If you have to wave dead babies in the air to make your point, you haven't got one" My Mom

        by JesseCW on Tue Feb 16, 2010 at 04:43:41 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  Or delay means start from scratch... (0+ / 0-)

        with some blue dog/repub market driven drivel of HCR with vouchers and tax credits for health insurance and medicare.

        "Sisters, brothers and the whities, Black and the crackers, Police and their backers, They're all political actors"--Curtis Mayfield

        by Cynic in seattle on Tue Feb 16, 2010 at 05:44:48 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

    •  Start-over means delay (7+ / 0-)

      Delay = failure

      Simply put, anything that GOPers support is likely just another excuse to not playing game. Some, like Shadegg (R-AZ) even claim to support single-payer (when they know it's dead for now).

      They want to run out the clock until a more favorable political environment exists for them.

      It's a bigger version of "referring a bill to committee" ... which is where bills go to die.

      --
      Make sure everyone's vote counts: Verified Voting

      by sacrelicious on Tue Feb 16, 2010 at 04:39:47 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  Start Over = Kill It. (2+ / 0-)

      It's as simple as that. And the GOP know that better than anyone.

      There is a reason that there has only been a Dem in the Oval Office for 13 of the past 41 years. And it ain't Obama.

      by kitebro on Tue Feb 16, 2010 at 04:55:18 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  Do-Overs are okay for grade school. (0+ / 0-)

      But there are many lives on the line!

      Starting over? For what? Now that the Senate and the House have both passed bills, progress has been made.

      Do you really think more could be accomplished now that the participants know where they have ended up?

      You're obstructing the simple idea in this diary. But you offer no reason.

      They only call it class war when we fight back! ht: buhdydharma

      by ezdidit on Tue Feb 16, 2010 at 04:57:11 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  You want antoher whole YEAR (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      blueyedace2

      of teabaggers screeching about socialism and killnig granny — only this time they've perfected their message and it will be even louder and deadlier. Meanwhile, everything else will be off the table? Right. Not me.

      Stop Rob "The Job Outsourcer" Portman. Jennifer Brunner for Senate http://www.jenniferbrunner.com/

      by anastasia p on Tue Feb 16, 2010 at 05:06:12 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  I think we should . . . (0+ / 0-)
    •  In the words of McEnroe - You CANNOT be Serious!! (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      phonegery

      After it took a year of wrangling and begging, and with a super majority, to get 2 disconnected Bills thru Congress - You think the Dems will fall for starting from scratch now and delay Help for Americans by another 2 years or never..!??

      The Republicons are protecting Big Insurance and Big Pharms record profits, period

      But where do the dittos presume that record profits for Big Corps come from..?

      Exploiting Americans and the very Republicon constituents that drank enough kool aide to elect them!

      Big Hint:

      Business model for Record Profts =
       Constantly Increased Fees
      + Reduced quality
      + Lower payouts (to doctors who actually perform the service)
      + Reduced services
      + Death Panels to deny treatments and coverages more often

      And Dems want to help Americans and stop the dangerous trends and unfair practices that are victimizing them for Profits!

      Yet, again the Republicons just say NO!!

    •  Nothing wrong with starting over, if we take (0+ / 0-)

      away all the Congressional health care benefits until everyone has something equal.

    •  Thanks for asking the question. (0+ / 0-)

      I think we can't start again because 1) we're never going to get further, 2) it's going to result in millions more spent by lobbyists and special interests trying to gerrymander reform to suit their provincial interests (and not the interests of the American people), 3) the public option approach is the right way to go and it's where we started the last time, and 4) Scott Brown will make any progress in the Senate almost impossible.

      "It is a serious thing to live in a society of possible gods and goddesses." - CS Lewis, Weight of Glory

      by Benintn on Tue Feb 16, 2010 at 06:02:29 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  The Republicans are ruthless (7+ / 0-)

    While the Democrats are wimps.  That's the public perception and that's why Democrats may be facing a rout in November.  But, with a few exceptions, they seem to be too afraid to fight.

    "We have always known that heedless self-interest was bad morals, now we know that it is bad economics." Franklin Delano Roosevelt, Jan. 20, 1937

    by Navy Vet Terp on Tue Feb 16, 2010 at 04:26:33 PM PST

    •  Honestly, that's one reason why I think (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      pragprogress, papicek, virtual0

      it is very possible that the Democrats would fare better if they started over with something substantial that would really be worth fighting hard for on the HCR front.  The current plan in the Senate is frought with so many poison pills and such mediocrity that makes it difficult for anyone, except those interested in political treachery, to fight and die on their political swords for it.

      From a branding/marketing perspective, I'd say they really might be better off in rousing public support if they did start over - and made sure that it reflected the things that garnered the most public support rather than allowing those intent on undermining the effort to drive both the narrative and the actual policy.

      •  A do-over will not look better. Grassley is not (7+ / 0-)

        suggesting we come back with a public option.

        The people committed to maintaining the status qou are happy with nothing getting done.

        Don't think that it will be any easier or any better. The same liars will come right back out. They won the first round, they want us to go back and play that one again.

        I said, "You know they refused Jesus too." And he said,"You're not him." -Dylan

        by mungley on Tue Feb 16, 2010 at 04:39:07 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Oh I don't give a shit about what (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          mungley, SBandini, pragprogress

          Grassley says - he is one of the people who was allowed to insert poison pills and delay this effort in the first place.  I'd take his damn dare though and create the plan of his worst nightmares - which would be a plan that takes care of people rather than the insurance companies.  And, if I were Obama and the Democratic Leadership, I would make hay of the CONTRAST between what you can get out of a solid Dem effort versus what you get out of an effort to appease people who are participating in BAD FAITH.

          •  Unfortunately we are incapable of acting alone (0+ / 0-)

            in the best interests of the nation.

            Apparently we need Charles Grassley's permission to even consider legislation, let alone write it and pass it.

            The reality is that we will never end up with a good bill as long as our system remains the same. Don't forget that he Ben Nelsons of the world )or Senate) will insist that Grassley get to put his two cents in.

            I said, "You know they refused Jesus too." And he said,"You're not him." -Dylan

            by mungley on Tue Feb 16, 2010 at 04:57:49 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  Reconciliation nullifies the Nelson (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              phonegery, Cynic in seattle

              and Grassley's of the world on the mechanics of reform from a public standpoint; and neither is stupid enough to vote against the millions of people in this country with pre-existing conditions or the cancer lobby in the normal legislative process.  Again, these people were negotiating in bad faith.  The only way to deall with them is to use every tool possible to sideline them - and the way to justify that departure from "bipartisanship" negotiations is to give people something that they really can love - not a big mess of stuff frought with poison pills and mediocrity.

              •  I thought you said, "start over" (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                inclusiveheart

                I said, "You know they refused Jesus too." And he said,"You're not him." -Dylan

                by mungley on Tue Feb 16, 2010 at 06:12:52 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  Well, my definition of starting over (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  mungley

                  is departing from the silly stance that reconciliation is some sort of taboo; and to streamline the efforts so that they are the most cost effective and efficacious in getting healthcare access to people - rather than worrying so much about how the GOP and conservadems feel about the effort.

                •  Oh and starting over means selling the GOOD (0+ / 0-)

                  deal from the bully pulpit rather than playing the easy-going "good idea" man regardless of the fact that people like Grassley, Snowe and conservadems were peddling shitty and destructive "ideas".  There is such a thing as a "bad idea" no matter what your kindergarten teacher said to you in a effort to make you feel good about yourself. (BTW I do not mean YOU specifically - I am talking about the general YOU who buy into this silly no bad ideas concept - For instance, if I told you to jump off the Golden Gate Bridge, I would hope that you'd reject that idea as being patently "bad".)

                  •  I'm sorry you had such a bad time in (0+ / 0-)

                    kindergarten.

                    Starting from scratch means more delay and more failure.

                    I said, "You know they refused Jesus too." And he said,"You're not him." -Dylan

                    by mungley on Tue Feb 16, 2010 at 08:42:25 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Oh, I had a great time in kindergarten. (0+ / 0-)

                      The world was my oyster then.

                      I don't know that stripping out the bs and taking the best really could be considered "starting from scratch" - except on the PR front which is their first problem right now.  Too many people have lost faith in Congress' judgment now for them not to address the issue.  One way to do that is to focus on the popular aspects of the effort and leave behind the unpopular aspects.  As they keep telling us, they can always go back and "fix" the bill later.  Why not expand Medicare as an option to everyone 55+ through reconciliation and pass the pre-existing condition and recission legislation separately and see what happens next.  I think a lot of people would be really happy with that result.

        •  Grassley wants a fat wet kiss to (0+ / 0-)

          his insurance company overlords.

          Can we elect a Democrat please?

          "It is a serious thing to live in a society of possible gods and goddesses." - CS Lewis, Weight of Glory

          by Benintn on Tue Feb 16, 2010 at 06:03:42 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

      •  No (5+ / 0-)

        push the modified bill through, and roll over the republicans.

        If you've raised kids, they will push you until you either say no, and stand by it. If you never stand by it, they continue to push.

        It's time the Dems stood up and did the "Nike" logo: "Just Do It".

        She who hesitates, waits.

        by KatGirl on Tue Feb 16, 2010 at 04:41:01 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  FIRST have a nice little discussion session (4+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          mwm341, mungley, KatGirl, Mr MadAsHell

          where the Republicans can whine about all their issues, and show everyone that they are clueless, don't have anything to contribute, and are not interested in solutions anyway.

          THEN pass the sidecar reconciliation (with a strong public option), pass the Senate bill through the House, and move on.

          I'm hoping that's the game plan being developed.

      •  poor marketing... (4+ / 0-)

        was the problem from the get go. An article I read on Pollster.com recently cited a number of polls, and also shared results of the question: Th Public Option is concerned with:

        1. Banking
        2. Energy
        3. Health Care
        4. I don't know

        Onlu 56% knew it was about health care. and a full 33% had to admit they didn't know. I've been hammering dems for not doing a better job marketing their ideas, and this is why.

      •  Why we can't start over. (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        mungley

        It would seem logical that starting over might make sense, but the problem is that the way the Senate operates does not make sense.

        The problem is that the Republicans, with Brown's win, can now filibuster to their heart's content and this is what they would do with a new start-from-scratch bill.  

        This is why everyone is saying that starting over means giving up on passing a comprehensive bill.

  •  I don't see this as an either/or (9+ / 0-)

    proposition. Pass the bill into law.  Then start over by fixing what works and unfixing what doesn't work.

    Enuff already. Move on. Pass it and and then continue the squabbling.  Who knows whether it will work or not, all of it won't, sone of it will. MOVE ON. DETACH.

  •  No disrespect intended Ms. McJoan (15+ / 0-)

    but if you are ignoring Zogby polls ... then this story doesn't exist.

    •  seriously...wtf? (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      arielle, indubitably, katesmom

      take this with a mountain of salt, because even the proprietor of this blog thinks zogby couldn't poll its way out of a paper bag, but i'm going to post this anti-HCR, GOP-friendly meme on the front page anyway!

      wheee?

      People are upset Obama hasn't solved all the problems yet. C'mon, he's only been in office one year...the man went to Harvard, not Hogwarts. - Wanda Sykes

      by Cedwyn on Tue Feb 16, 2010 at 04:56:04 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Really??? (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        island in alabama

        I thought the gist of the piece was that the GOP and fellow wingers were going to run the phoney baloney up the flagpole and we ought to be alerted to the onslaught ahead, but, I often fail to understand the most simple things.

        •  i see no value in such an "alert" (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          indubitably

          other than the dismissable poll, we learned nothing new. and it's not like the poll changes a damn thing, since it is zogby and we know they won't start over, as also stated in this piece.

          the poll is the kind of non-story that doesn't even warrant notice, let alone a write-up. the whole piece is a negative, GOP-friendly presentation of some underlying point, which i presume to be the need to pass HCR.  

          and if indeed this poll is so transparently intended to be a bludgeon for the GOP to wield, why should we be giving their arguments a lick of prominence?

          apologies, mcjoan; i just had a very strong reaction to this piece.

          People are upset Obama hasn't solved all the problems yet. C'mon, he's only been in office one year...the man went to Harvard, not Hogwarts. - Wanda Sykes

          by Cedwyn on Tue Feb 16, 2010 at 05:31:26 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

  •  Its depressing how the MSM just repeats GOP lies (5+ / 0-)

    Why can't Dems do that? This has been happening since before Fox News!

  •  if that's what it taked to get it done, (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    TheTrucker

    so be it, get it done!

    •  That is the exact opposite of what needs to (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      vacantlook, TheTrucker, katesmom

      happen for reform to be passed and Grassley knows this.

      My question is, since the GOP is now following the polls, are they going to vote for the Public Option?

      public option support Pictures, Images and Photos

      "I will fight for my country, but I will not lie for her. " -- Zora Neale Hurston

      by blueintheface on Tue Feb 16, 2010 at 04:50:58 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  that question should be answered by (0+ / 0-)

        those republicans. it could also be answered by the WH indirectly.

      •  If the Senate bill is passed by the House (0+ / 0-)

        As is and then a stand alone Public Option bill is brought to the floor of the Senate, reconciliation is NOT needed.  Those who vote against the Option will be removed in the elections.  And then we do it again next year and the year after until it gets done.  If it were in the bill already it would not take effect until 2014.  It is an EASY add on once the rest of the stuff is signed into law.  It would be the "gift that keeps on giving" when used to beat hell out of Republicans.

        I do not understand this crap about "We gotta have a public option at square one or we will kill the bill".  Utterly stupid.

        "I know no safe depository for the ultimate power of society but the people themselves" -- Jefferson

        by TheTrucker on Wed Feb 17, 2010 at 01:12:43 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

  •  Can't we just put a rider on the current bill (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    mungley, nonnie9999, pademocrat, papicek

    that bans the Republican party in it's entirety?

    That would solve the whole problem.

    I think George W. Bush is the perfect president to preside over the end of the world. -Marc Maron

    by Nona D Above on Tue Feb 16, 2010 at 04:28:15 PM PST

  •  You cannot go back. (15+ / 0-)

    If this bill doesn't go through, you will never see another healthcare bill again. With all its warts, it gets us over the start line. All of us probably would want to see a different bill but the reality is that we have this bill and we have to pass it by reconciliation.

    •  The answer is too simple-IMHO (0+ / 0-)

      Phase in Medicare. The program is alrady in place, cannot be misrepresented, and is well understood and liked.Do it thru reconciliation, and screw them.

      Everybody over the cliff? Let's do it together, then!

      by waltoon on Tue Feb 16, 2010 at 04:43:54 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  A non-starter. (0+ / 0-)

        Look we all wish we had a single payer system. But to get it you need votes in the Congress, and the votes just are not there, no matter how fervently we might wish it. It's a bitter pill but there it is.

    •  Just a little by hyperbolic? (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      DawnG, wsexson, FreeLancer

      If this bill doesn't go through, you will never see another healthcare bill again.

      The heavens won't actually fall, and we won't actually be sucked into a black hole.  We will most definately see another health care bill again, likely half a dozen or more in the next ten years, if this fails.

      Of course, some of those might be a lot worse than this one.

      "If you have to wave dead babies in the air to make your point, you haven't got one" My Mom

      by JesseCW on Tue Feb 16, 2010 at 04:47:39 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  For too people in desperate need of medical (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        kareylou, CalliopeIrjaPearl

        coverage, if we don't get any kind of reform this time around, they won't make it until the next bill is introduced. And for many others, they will be financially ruined because of medical issues by the time the next bill is introduced.

        No hyperbole.

        "I will fight for my country, but I will not lie for her. " -- Zora Neale Hurston

        by blueintheface on Tue Feb 16, 2010 at 04:53:07 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  What you did there? (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          FreeLancer

          Yeah, that was completely nonresponsive.

          The issue was whether or not we'd ever see another health care bill again, not whether or not reform is desperately needed.

          "If you have to wave dead babies in the air to make your point, you haven't got one" My Mom

          by JesseCW on Tue Feb 16, 2010 at 05:03:18 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

  •  Frankly public opinion be damned, unless (9+ / 0-)

    people are taking time to be informed they should
    answer "I don't know".

    Dick Cheney was below 15% in polls, and GW Bush was below 30%, and yet we didn't remove them from office, either - even though there's more than enough information to show they should have been.

    Polls mean squat when it comes to making policy decisions.

    It's Single Payer that is the right solution.

    The elimination of the monopoly of [if not the outright eradication of] for-profit health "insurance": the public option is the path down that road and it's the right choice, for any number of reasons.

    "the work goes on, the cause endures .. "

    by shpilk on Tue Feb 16, 2010 at 04:30:20 PM PST

  •  yeah, that's what I was waiting to read... (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    mungley, nonnie9999

    that this is a Zogby poll, and to be taken with more than a grain of salt.

    Does Zogby do anything but "interactive online polling"?

    •  Oh they do phone call canvassing (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      mungley, nonnie9999, papicek

      It's been shown before that Zogby will follow the intent and lead of the those paying for the poll, and use leading questions and select by demographic to make the outcome fit the client's needs, rather than the truth.

      Zogby is worse than useless, it serves as paid propaganda and nothing more.

      "the work goes on, the cause endures .. "

      by shpilk on Tue Feb 16, 2010 at 04:34:38 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  Lots of polls showing (5+ / 0-)

    strong majority support for a public option. If they say the process needs to start over because the polls show the people want them to, they must also support the public option for the same reason?

  •  While Democrats dither... (3+ / 0-)

    Republicans win the message war.

    It's hard even imagine how the Senate has screwed this up so badly -- unless that was the goal all along.

    Never say die while there's a shot in the locker.

    by masswaster on Tue Feb 16, 2010 at 04:32:16 PM PST

  •  If they want to govern by polls... (9+ / 0-)

    Then the Dems should say "57% want to start over but a clear majority also want a robust public option and Medicare at 55yrs old"...

    Politics is like playing Asteroids - You go far enough to the left and you end up on the right. Or vice-versa.

    by Jonze on Tue Feb 16, 2010 at 04:32:25 PM PST

    •  Wouldn't that be (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      island in alabama

      nice....that is the trouble the WH and Democrats are confusing bipartisanship with competence. The American people are fed up they had 60 in the Senate and couldn't do anything. My sister is leaning towards the tea party due to this crap. I still say they should have stayed in August and got it done.

      How much pain have cost us the evils which have never happened. Thomas Jefferson

      by coffejoe on Tue Feb 16, 2010 at 05:18:02 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •   like the Repugs, ignore the polls you don't like (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    mungley, nonnie9999, Nona D Above
  •  Single Payer (8+ / 0-)

    now that we have everyone's attention
    that would be my idea of a do over.

    Corporations are the immortals that are sucking our blood. We have to invite them in.

    by 88kathy on Tue Feb 16, 2010 at 04:33:00 PM PST

  •  The poll ended on Feb 1.... (10+ / 0-)

    ...and it's just now coming out?

    This is being released to drive the agenda. I've never heard of a poll taking that long to come out otherwise.

    Bush Bites is a subsidiary of Bush Bites Inc., a registered corporate personhood.

    by Bush Bites on Tue Feb 16, 2010 at 04:33:18 PM PST

  •  Seriously Zogby? Didn't Zog say O would (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    nonnie9999
    win the CA primary in 2008?  Yeah that did not turn out so well did it.  Zog is not a pollster he is a sychophant, reading the entrails of poorly worded questions asked of poorly sampled respondents.
  •  Anybody who thinks pols aren't afraid of polls... (0+ / 0-)

    needs to find a new hobby other than politics.

    Never say die while there's a shot in the locker.

    by masswaster on Tue Feb 16, 2010 at 04:33:39 PM PST

  •  Where was Grssley when polls said 80% support (7+ / 0-)

    HCR?

    Oh Yeah, Pulling the plug on Grandma.

    But Yes, let's start over: Medicare for ALL!

    Just to clear the decks. I own no monkeys.

    by Misterpuff on Tue Feb 16, 2010 at 04:34:00 PM PST

  •  It's a little bit too convenient that at this (9+ / 0-)

    particular moment in time, right before the Republicans will have to face the American people on the healthcare issue, that all of a sudden there is a poll suggesting that HCR be restarted.  As worthless as it is, this is definitely a poll that was bought and paid for by the Repubs.  

  •  Obama & Harry Reid know what the public wants (5+ / 0-)

    ANd they  know a couple of ways to do it.

    All they need is the will to make it happen.

    HR 676 - Health care reform we can believe in - national single-payer NOW.

    by kck on Tue Feb 16, 2010 at 04:36:20 PM PST

  •  Know what's funny? (6+ / 0-)

    If the Dems would just roll over the Repubs once, they could probably loosen them up, and get rid of their obstructionism.

    Or, at least reduce it enough to get a couple of them to really try to do something constructive.

    She who hesitates, waits.

    by KatGirl on Tue Feb 16, 2010 at 04:36:28 PM PST

  •  Take out all of the made up stuff, and most (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    nonnie9999, papicek

    people are going to be fine with it. THere are many people who still think we have death panels in the bill.

    Grassley will be among the first to say, "They could not get this done in over a year," come election time.

    I said, "You know they refused Jesus too." And he said,"You're not him." -Dylan

    by mungley on Tue Feb 16, 2010 at 04:36:39 PM PST

  •  Zogby poll? (7+ / 0-)

    That's all one has to say...

    Obama 1/10: "We don't quit. I don't quit."

    by Drdemocrat on Tue Feb 16, 2010 at 04:37:07 PM PST

  •  The two are not mutually exclusive (5+ / 0-)

    I feel the majority do want reform.
    I feel the majority also feel as though the current legislation is a mess.

    The two aren't mutually exclusive.

    People still want serious reform.

    They just don't want this reform, which, despite all the pleas to the contrary is at this moment a gigantic mess of pork and non-sensical policy.  I know, bad form to say that.

    But A Spade is a Spade.  Even Markos came on here and referred to it as a mess.  So let's not deny what it is.

    But starting over is not necessarily the worst thing in the world, despite the chicken little "if we do, it's giving up!" cries.  I don't buy that.   Even if you just get inch by inch what you want, it's in some ways, better then something you know from the get go is messed up.

    Having Hope and using action to give people hope are different things. Make a difference for someone.

    by Chris Reeves on Tue Feb 16, 2010 at 04:37:10 PM PST

    •  That makes no sense (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      begone, nonnie9999

      Starting over may get you nothing, because there's no guarantee the Republicans will vote for anything proposed by Obama.  And the step by step stuff is covered in the Senate bill.  On top of that, HCR is such a complicated process that every issue is interconnected-you can't increase affordability without mandates, and you can't ban discrimination unless you get everyone in the system, because that would make increasing affordability impossible.  The approach you suggest will guarantee failure.

      •  The poll question doesn't ask what people (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        island in alabama, coffejoe

        think is a feasible strategy.

        It asks what they want.

        "If you have to wave dead babies in the air to make your point, you haven't got one" My Mom

        by JesseCW on Tue Feb 16, 2010 at 04:49:20 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Bam, said the lady! (0+ / 0-)

          Exactly.  It's not asking people about the political viability.  Most people don't care about that.

          People have largely decided the legislation as it is is no good.  We can debate that all we want, but there is a large public belief that it's chock full of pork, poison pills and things they don't want.

          But just because that's true doesn't mean people don't want HCR.  They do.  They've just decided they don't want =this= HCR bill.

          Having Hope and using action to give people hope are different things. Make a difference for someone.

          by Chris Reeves on Tue Feb 16, 2010 at 04:51:14 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Definately not a lady. (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            island in alabama

            Gallup didn't ask "Would you support starting over if it likely meant that no substantial reform bill would pass this year" - which seems to be how most here are reading the answer....as they denounce their fellow Americans and insist that democracy is a mistake or go with the "Zogby dah evil!!!" route.

            People may well want this bill rather than nothing, but Zogby didn't ask that question.

            "If you have to wave dead babies in the air to make your point, you haven't got one" My Mom

            by JesseCW on Tue Feb 16, 2010 at 05:02:01 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  And the fact that Zogby DIDN'T ask that question (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              arielle

              is one more demonstration of why Zogby sucks.

              •  No one is asking that question. (0+ / 0-)

                Zogby certainly does suck - their on-line polls are just darts thrown at a board and their lives polls have a consistent large R lean.

                But, no one is asking that question.

                "If you have to wave dead babies in the air to make your point, you haven't got one" My Mom

                by JesseCW on Tue Feb 16, 2010 at 06:32:01 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

            •  Just to note, the phrase (0+ / 0-)

              It has nothing to do with the sex of the poster.. the phrase "Bam said the lady!" is just a jargon from Nathan Fillion (Serenity/Firefly) as kind of an exclamation of "you heat the nail on the head"

              You're right Zogby didn't ask that question.  In fact, the original post is two questions from different polls (Gallup/Zogby).  I'm just saying not mutually exclusive in the questions.

              (BTW, if you haven't watched anything with Fillion, or followed his feeds, that may seem more out of sort then it is ;)

              Having Hope and using action to give people hope are different things. Make a difference for someone.

              by Chris Reeves on Tue Feb 16, 2010 at 07:56:44 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

      •  Oh, and this (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        tmservo433, wsexson, nonnie9999

        you can't increase affordability without mandates

        Is horseshit.

        "If you have to wave dead babies in the air to make your point, you haven't got one" My Mom

        by JesseCW on Tue Feb 16, 2010 at 04:49:57 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

    •  It won't work. Starting over is never going to (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      nonnie9999

      get it done.

      The same obstructionists are in the same positions they were last year.

      Why would you believe that they will sit back and let us tell the truth this year?

      Remember the lying? Remember the threats? Remember calling the President Hitler? Those things are all still there.

      The Republicans got EVERYTHING they asked for and are still unhappy. That's because what they want is for nothing to happen.

      I said, "You know they refused Jesus too." And he said,"You're not him." -Dylan

      by mungley on Tue Feb 16, 2010 at 04:44:51 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  Didn't Baucus' gang of six have a blank page? (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    nonnie9999, island in alabama

    They had 8 months to figure it out and couldn't come up with a good bill.  It's time to get it done.

    "The work goes on, the cause endures, the hope still lives and the dreams shall never die."

    by rscopes on Tue Feb 16, 2010 at 04:37:13 PM PST

  •  People aren't simple, and both polls (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    tmservo433, nonnie9999

    are badly worded.

    When the poll is asking what people want, and not what they "think is likely considering other factors" -

    1. The Senate bill is chock full of poison pills.  Of course a majority would rather they start over, in an ideal world.
    1. We've accomplished a lot of changes item by item.  It's no wonder a lot of people would endorse that approach here, many of them probably hoping the parts they personally hate would be left behind.
    1. None of that means Gallup is wrong - "Do you want comprehensive reform" only means "Should the House pass the current Senate Bill, possibly with minor changes" inside this bubble we call Dailkos.

    There are no contradictions here.

    Oh, yeah, and Zogby does have that notorious R lean, but its ussualy 4-5 points and doesn't really undermine the meaning of this poll.

    "If you have to wave dead babies in the air to make your point, you haven't got one" My Mom

    by JesseCW on Tue Feb 16, 2010 at 04:38:19 PM PST

    •  Not necessarily disagreeing with you, but (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      nonnie9999, coffejoe

      most Americans supported the Iraq war in 2003. They were about as wrong as can be.

      Sometimes our politicians need to make decisions that we citizens may not like at the time. The Iraq war was a perfect example of that,ie Bush should not have attacked Iraq.

      The same can be said for HCR, ie pass the bill.

  •  by all means, trust chuck yer-ass-is-grassley (5+ / 0-)

    he's been such an honest broker so far...


    larger version

    I didn't get Jack from Abramoff...I'm not a Republican!

    by nonnie9999 on Tue Feb 16, 2010 at 04:39:18 PM PST

  •  Everybody hates a bill. (3+ / 0-)

    Before most bills are passed, 40% of people are going to want it to be more conservative, 40% are going to want it to be more liberal, and only 20% of people are going to be happy with it.  Because it's a bill, it's subject to change.

    Once it's been passed, people are going to stop judging it on what it could be and start judging it on how it changes things from how they were.  

    I think there are a lot of people, such as many kossacks, who don't like the Senate bill, but like the status quo even less.  Some reason, those people don't get factored in by the msm.  

  •  The Fact That 57% of Americans Are This Naive, (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    mungley

    ....believing that there's a snowball's chance in hell that Congress with "start over" and reconfigure a health care bill from scratch that is both painless and free of charge, is in my opinion more depressing than if their opposition to HCR was based on teabagger-esque ideological differences.  

    If the people were sincere in opposing the basic premise of health care reform, we wouldn't waste any more political capital on it.  Instead, we get the worst of both worlds...an electorate insisting on dramatic improvement to the health care system that will be inevitably scared into opposing whatever bill actually rises from the ashes and then voting down-the-line Republican in the next election to "punish" the people who tried in good faith to reform health care in the first place.

    Hard not to be as jaded as Evan Bayh claims to be looking at BS like this.

    •  Talk about a strawman. (0+ / 0-)

      reconfigure a health care bill from scratch that is both painless and free of charge,

      reconfigure a health care bill from scratch that is both painless and free of charge,

      "If you have to wave dead babies in the air to make your point, you haven't got one" My Mom

      by JesseCW on Tue Feb 16, 2010 at 04:55:10 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Is That Not Effectively What People Are Saying? (0+ / 0-)

        People want a health care plan that makes their own premiums go down, covers all of the uninsured without mandating that they pay for it, not require tax increases, and not add to deficit.  That's unrealistic in itself, and as long as they're as gullible as they are in allowing Republicans to convince them it won't work, there is zero chance of successfully pulling off health care reform without turning it into the Democrats' Iraq War in the court of public opinion.

    •  It was a bullshit poll. (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Lynwaz, island in alabama

      .
       An "incremental" way could mean (a) this month make denial of private coverage based on pre-existing illness a crime; (b) 60 days later allow Medicare to cover people down to age 55; (c)  by November 1, extend Medicare to cover people down to 40, plus Trust-busting the Insurance carriers.

       I could fashion questions to make 56% of those polled say that they like eating poo sandwiches while getting loofah'd by Billo.

      .

      "I have to go now. I feel . . . sticky." Anthony Bourdain

      by BenGoshi on Tue Feb 16, 2010 at 05:18:18 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  57% of the Zogby poll respondents (0+ / 0-)

      I would not confuse a Zogby poll with the view of the people

      "We have here a forecast of the long history of American Politics, the mobilization of lower-class energy by upper-class politicians, for their own purposes"

      by island in alabama on Tue Feb 16, 2010 at 06:53:22 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  The House Should PASS THE DAMN BILL! (5+ / 0-)
    •  Friggin Purists, (0+ / 0-)

      Look, you may not like it, but we're going to have to compromise with the assholes who care about helping people and go the reconciliation route, even if it means your perfect rainbow farting unicorn of a Lieberman plan gets watered down the point that Atenas CEO has to make to with a gold-plated toilet encrusted with rubies instead of diamonds.

      Supporting reconciliation before the House votes is the only pragmatic solution, and it's time to stop letting the quest for the corporate perfect be the enemy of the greater corporate good.

      "If you have to wave dead babies in the air to make your point, you haven't got one" My Mom

      by JesseCW on Tue Feb 16, 2010 at 04:58:27 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  That poll is two weeks old, and it's... (4+ / 0-)

    only being released now?  It's definitely an attempt to give the cowardly rethugs cover for not attending President Obama's meeting next week.  Well, it's not going to work, no matter how much they cry and moan about it.

    "There is no red America, or blue America, there is the United States of America." 2004 DNC Speech

    by BarackStarObama on Tue Feb 16, 2010 at 04:43:41 PM PST

  •  Zogby said that Coakley would win.... (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    BenGoshi, nonnie9999, Benintn

    ...enough said.  Go back to polling soap products. It's what your best at, Jon.

    DARTH SPECTER: I am altering the deal! Pray I don't alter it any further!
    LANDO REID: This deal keeps getting worse all the time!

    by LordMike on Tue Feb 16, 2010 at 04:46:54 PM PST

  •  you can take this many ways: (5+ / 0-)

    Moreover, 56.4 percent of people indicated they would prefer Congress to tackle healthcare reform on a step-by-step basis, not take the comprehensive approach

    You can take this as "they want congress to start over" (as some has) but I think you can just as equally take it as a ala carte approach that includes reconcilliation and other strategies to get different parts of HCR passed in different ways.

    Plus the wording is just vague enough that you can't even tell what the motivation behind the desire is.  Do people want to "start over" becuase they think it'll be more successful, or because they actually want to scuttle it entirely?

    Curling is the shiznit!

    by DawnG on Tue Feb 16, 2010 at 04:48:07 PM PST

    •  Well put. (0+ / 0-)

      .
       Hell, I'd like to "start over", put Single Payer on the table and give the GOP 72 hours to respond (72 seconds would be all that's needed).  Then say, "O.K., you want nothing, we want Single Payer, therefore the compromise will be (1) all insurance reforms currently on the table, (2) no mandate to buy insurance, and (3) a public option -- or -- expansion of Medicare to age 35, take your choice.  Now go get bent.

       Period.
      .

      "I have to go now. I feel . . . sticky." Anthony Bourdain

      by BenGoshi on Tue Feb 16, 2010 at 05:12:26 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  It bears repeating::: (6+ / 0-)

    Photobucket

    Look at that graph--63 percent want comprehensive reform to pass, and more Independents want to see it pass than Republicans want to see it fail. But a note of caution, while the blame is primarily falling on Republicans now, ultimately the blame will be shared if it fails, and the bulk of it would fall on Obama and the Dems, since they are in charge.

    They only call it class war when we fight back! ht: buhdydharma

    by ezdidit on Tue Feb 16, 2010 at 04:52:27 PM PST

  •  Fine. (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    ezdidit

    .
     *  We say Single Payer.

     *  The Tea Kluxers say no reform (let the fuckers go bankrupt next serious illness).

     The compromise:  Public Option.

    .

    "I have to go now. I feel . . . sticky." Anthony Bourdain

    by BenGoshi on Tue Feb 16, 2010 at 04:55:13 PM PST

  •  Obama should pull a Bush and tell us (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    BenGoshi, Lynwaz

    all that he doesn't govern based on polls then...and tell us we need health-care...and we're going to get it...if W can say that and enter this country into war...surely Obama can do it to get some people some care.

  •  If they were told Lieberman & Nelson would get (0+ / 0-)

    get to hold us hostage again what would the number be? A recent poll showed only 26 percent of Americans know that it takes 60 votes to end a filibuster. Leaders need to lead.

  •  They really want a "do-over" of the election... (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    BenGoshi

    fuck the HCR... they'd like to pretend the last election never happened, then they can "do away" with HCR

    "24" is to torture what "The Archies" were to Rock n Roll...

    by ThatSinger on Tue Feb 16, 2010 at 05:02:55 PM PST

  •  I think a lot of the bill is noncontroversial (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    island in alabama, RweTHEREyet

    If everyone was sincerely trying to be bipartisan, I think there's a lot of stuff (e.g., health IT) that the Republicans would be fine with. And, even if the Republicans wanted to tinker with those parts, the Republicans might actually have good ideas that the Democrats ought to take seriously.

    One problem with the Republicans sitting out the debate is that they didn't do a complete job of going through the bill page by page and pointing out the places where we seriously messed up and could do things better.

    When the Republicans shout "socialist! socialist! death panel!" every time we open our mouths, that's obstructionist.

    When the Republicans point out that some parts of a 2,000-page bill are dumb, that's the glory of democracy.

    •  But they AREN'T sincerely trying to be bipartisan (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      island in alabama, kwt3200

      Bipartisanship - in the current environment - is wishful thinking to the nth degree. My conviction is - if something as horrific as 9/11 happened during this presidency - it would be highly unlikely that the Reps would get on board ANY kind of "consensus" and try to heal/repair the country.

      They...Do...Not...Care about healing the country, helping citizens or anything else except - trashing this admin & returning to power.

      So I wish the "bipartisanship" meme would go off in a corner with the "where is my pony?" remarks. It ain't gonna happen.

      •  I heard some bipartisan stuff during committee (0+ / 0-)

        hearing telecasts.

        I think some of the Republicans really had intelligent, reasonable things to say, but they were overshadowed by the socialist socialist socialist people.

        Because reasonable Republicans are enabling the lunatics and meanies, the lunatics and meanies are drowning out the people who might be quite conservative but are also reasonably rational.

        But I still think it would be to our benefit if we could figure out how to bring the sane moderate conservatives began into the civic conversation.

  •  I agree. I want Medicare Choice not current bill (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    wsexson

    It cuts two ways. I think Democrats should jump on it. One lesson learned was even the most extreme of the right wing GOP'ers were DEFENDING Medicare from cuts.

    Democrats should say OK. Blank slate. GOP agrees not to filibuster.

    1. Medicare Choice. People want choice we give them ability to choose Medicare by choosing to pay increased Medicare tax. Their employer particpates just like regular Medicare if the employee chooses the Medicare Choice option.  GOP can't argue with that since it is all consumer choice.
    1. Toss in some reforms for private insurance, no anti-trust protection (GOP is for competition right?), basic health package as minimum, no pre-existing conditions, no denial of services, no annual/lifetime limits.

    Private insurance costs will skyrocket. 140 million Americans will CHOOSE Medicare and CHOOSE to pay more Medicare tax.

    That's what Democrats propose as their "blank slate" solution. GOP won't agree to any of it but Democrats regain the initiative in health care debate whether they can pass it over GOP filibuster or not.

    It's REAL HEALTH CARE REFORM which is the point of all this palavering.

    Who knows, Democrats might be able to put together 50 votes but at least they are offering real reform.

  •  Why would we assume anything when a zogby (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    arielle, island in alabama

    poll is involved - other than it's utter bullshit.

    Telling 30+ million people to suffer the status quo is the Republican plan. Are you a Republican?

    by Elise on Tue Feb 16, 2010 at 05:19:08 PM PST

  •  As I have always said.... (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    RweTHEREyet

    Americans like incremental bi-partisan change...

    Obama - Change I still believe in

    by dvogel001 on Tue Feb 16, 2010 at 05:22:29 PM PST

  •  I definitely want comprehensive reform , but (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    RweTHEREyet, kwt3200

    starting over is a great idea at this point.When too many crooked cooks have stirred the soup from obtuse angles throw the resulting mess out & write a new recipe.

  •  mcjoan, I'm with you. Is that Feb. 25 date (0+ / 0-)

    for a Democratic plan on deck?

  •  In the words of McEnroe - You CANNOT be Serious!! (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Lynwaz, kwt3200

    After it took a year of wrangling and begging, and with a super majority, to get 2 disconnected Bills thru Congress - You think the Dems will fall for starting from scratch now and delay Help for Americans by another 2 years or never..!??

    The Republicons are protecting Big Insurance and Big Pharms record profits, period

    But where do the dittos presume that record profits for Big Corps come from..?

    Exploiting Americans and the very Republicon constituents that drank enough kool aide to elect them!

    Big Hint:

    Business model for Record Profits$ =
     Constantly Increased Fees
    + Reduced quality
    + Lower payouts (to doctors who actually perform the service)
    + Reduced services
    + No spending for Preventions
    + Death Panels to deny treatments and coverages more often

    And Dems want to help Americans, solve problems, prevent risks and stop the dangerous trends and unfair practices that are victimizing them for Profits!

    Yet, again the Republicons just say NO!!

  •  Why not? (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    island in alabama, kwt3200

    Give the GOP exactly what it's asking for.

    Use HR676 ("Medicare for All") as the starting point this time around.

    Let them whine to the media "We didn't really mean it when we said start over." after their insurance industry donors call them while foaming at the mouth.

    And unlike the lobbyist-driven 1000+ page disaster this would replace, HR676 is comprehensible to the average American, so Americans can decide whether or not to be for or against it based on what is in the bill, not statements from bi-partisan spin doctors who have little more idea than the average American of the content as distorted by the media.

    Looking for intelligent energy policy alternatives? Try here.

    by alizard on Tue Feb 16, 2010 at 05:51:41 PM PST

  •  I agree we should start over - with single payer. (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    kwt3200

    It's the best option.  It's the best way to build a system.  Provide single payer and allow supplemental insurance to cover unique issues, expenses, etc.

    It's like building a car.  What kind of chassis do you build off of?  Using the old private-pay for-profit model will just result in more of the same.  We need to rebuild the system.

    And every day we wait, more Americans die.

    "It is a serious thing to live in a society of possible gods and goddesses." - CS Lewis, Weight of Glory

    by Benintn on Tue Feb 16, 2010 at 05:59:26 PM PST

    •  In an Ideal world, I'd agree with you... (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      kwt3200

      But our Prez already said he's not for single payer, didn't he? So that's a pie-in-the-sky dream at this point. Maybe not forever. We really NEED single-payer, I 100% agree with that. But I strongly doubt we're going to get it the first time around, since the Boss isn't behind it.

  •  Well, that's because (0+ / 0-)

    it's been a year and the Senate bill is crap and they know it.

    Doesn't mean they're right, but it's understandable they'd feel that way.

    Grab a mop or shut up, dammit!

    by SouthernLiberalinMD on Tue Feb 16, 2010 at 06:07:18 PM PST

  •  in other breaking news: GOPropaganda is effective (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    island in alabama

    "Politics is like driving. To go backward put it in R. To go forward put it in D."
    --Tom Harkin

    by TrueBlueMajority on Tue Feb 16, 2010 at 06:17:48 PM PST

  •  Start over, my ass (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    kwt3200

      Fuck Zogby

  •  What Poll? (0+ / 0-)

    I am sorry there was a new poll released?

    http://randomthoughtstd.blogspot.com/

  •  "Zogby Poll" (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    island in alabama

    Bah! Pshaw!

  •  1000 radio stations regurgitating lobbyist (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    kareylou

    talking points 24/7 keep making health care reform harder and harder while the left just can't figure it out.

    US social and political reality is largely determined by 1000 radio stations blasting coordinated UNCONTESTED repetition all day long.

    by certainot on Tue Feb 16, 2010 at 08:38:00 PM PST

  •  They Can Always Ask Me What I Want (0+ / 0-)

    Not that they would, of course. But, just in case:

    What I want is the federal government to pay for all necessary health care and to bump up the income tax across the board to pay for it. In other words, I want publicly funded healthcare and I want to get rid of the for-profit healthcare insurance system. I want healthcare divorced from employment. I want a system that is competitive on the world stage (where most countries pay less than 15% of GDP and almost 20 get a system rated better than ours). I want a system that does not prevent anyone from paying more or getting other healthcare outside that. That's what I want. Just in case anyone is listening.

    This is the best way (IMHO) to get affordable, universal healthcare (which I define as costing less than 15% of GDP and covering 100% of all essential health care needs without anyone having serious, personal financial difficulty to pay for their care).

  •  Shove it down their throats (0+ / 0-)

    in reconciliation, but don't use the Senate Bill: it was written by the Insurance Lobby.  Nobody wants that watered down giveaway.  Put back the Public Option.  Remove the anti-trust exemption.  Allow interstate purchase of insurance.  Outlaw cancellation of policy for poor health requiring expensive procedures.  Do the things the American people expected you to do in the first place instead of cowtowing to the Insurance lobby.  Put back the Medicare buy-in.

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