Every time you buy something, you pay for Health Care
This was a running thread on an investment board from one of my stocks.
For sometime I've both thought and tried to find away to put my thoughts and logic about health care, into an article, because IMHO, if we continue down this path of high cost health care, paid for by businesses to businesses, at the greediest levels, America may no longer be the America we've known and loved.
My handle is Nickm, the others have been changed to protect the guilty and the innocent. :)
FR
"You call it re-distribution of wealth. I call it being fair." - Joe Biden
"This is a BFD!" - Joe Biden
Hair implants put in to deep.
How about the eighth commandment, Joe?
Thou shalt not steal also applies to the government.
Vote 'em out!!!!!
Nickm
I see, it's OK for the rich and big corporations to buy government and the NLRB and then steal from the middle class.
What we've had is government of the money, for the money and bought buy the money.
Some people think that, as long as they get theirs, F the rest.
We followed the rules and VOTED THEM OUT!!!
Fr
They're hitting the middle class right in their 401k s, medical devices, medicines, insurance, benefits, coverages, choices, etc..
Once you run out of other peoples' money what will you do?
ENUF!
Vote out tax and spenders.
Every law and every tax is a taking of your rights and freedoms!
T reported a 1 Billion charge against earnings (as required by Sarbanes per Oxley) due to the health insurance bill. That comes out of the stockholders pocket (read: retirement funds, pension funds, 401K s, and others of the middle class). It's just the begining.
All the many bureaus that the bill created will be issuing new rules and regulations of their own pretty soon. More rights and freedoms lost.
Welcome to the exchange; you won't be able to keep your private insurance. They will make sure you don't.
glty, nick, it's gonna cost you a bunch and you won't be able to say anything about it.
Nickm
Fr, rather then start a board war, I would be willing to discuss this with PMs.
At what point are people, at least as valuable as money?
Pot
exactly! at what point are people more valuable than the taxes that can be beat out of them.
wonder if George III liked salty tea?
income tax, investor tax, property tax, sales tax, vehicle tax, travel tax, tourist tax, user fees, medical device taxes, medicine taxes, value added tax, reduced benefits, higher premiums, reduced coverage, reduced services, reduced availability, fines, no saturday delivery, unfunded mandates, shuffle the burden on to the bankrupt state governments, government take-over of insurance and student loans, . . . you name it; it's in there!
slimey process too
staged and orchestrated too
just recently AZ hospitals are proposing a 1% tax on the rich (families that make more than *$150,000*), the democrat mayor of phoenix proposed a 2% tax on food, a state sales tax raise of 1% is on the ballot. AZ had recently expanded medicaid coverage but due to budget constraints needs to cut that back, but can't because the fed will cut off medicaid funds to any state reducing current medicaid coverage - the expanded coverage was done because of the promise of tobacco tax money to fund the expansion - those funds are less than expected and were drained off for other programs in the meantime.
gltua. don't bother with the PM. this board has fallen from the active boards list. in any case the investor taxes make these posts germain to stock related subjects.
POC
Knowing Nickm is a man of his words:
Nickm will be holding an OPEN HOUSE this weekend at his home.
Everyone that has less than he are welcome to take all his possessions. He will even sign his XXX stock certificates over to the less fortunate. Even his house is for taking to any homeless person(s).
Maybe the West Coast Cabal can have a GROUP OPEN HOUSE !
Yes; Nickm you are a Saint, Sorry, you are Jewish so I not sure what to said. Maybe Ke can help me out.
I wonder what taking so long to get my Tractor per Mulcher Tune-Upped. I want to be ready for those Obama supporters.
The not so saintly one
Nickm
I think you forgot a couple of Taxes. The healthcare tax you pay every time you buy something. The cost of healthcare on whatever you buy? Someone has to pay for the companies employees heathcare costs.
The money that isnt in your paycheck every week, because part of your last pay raise went to pay the increasing cost of your healthplan. I know, because I've been in on some of my unions negotiations.
Oh yeah, some other taxes. When is the last time your health insurance costs went down or your prescriptions were cheaper? What about the job you or your neighbor lost or had hours cut, because his job moved to some factory in some country with national health.
Yes, I believe healthcare is a RIGHT. You, me, the guy down the street has a right to not just live, but, as the Declaration of Independence says, a right to the pursuit of happiness. When is the last time you pursued happiness when you felt like crap?
I love guys like you, you scream nail the other guy, until your the other guy
EZ
""Yes, I believe healthcare is a RIGHT."" (This is a quote from Nickm's post)
There are even more people that are hungry....right to food....they need a way to pick it up....right to car per transportation....they need a house to store it in....right to housing.....whoops got that through ACORN and criminal investment banks....right to utilities to run appliances for food.....and on and on and on until.......Nicki has NO RIGHT to all that money in his accounts......and they have a right to THAT....
You really sound like a UNION BOSS....but in an industry where people make millions pretending to be what they are not?
Nickm
In my business,(I worked in the movie industry) god only knows what would have happened without a union. I do know one fact. When we lost something in our union agreement, the very next day, the non union guys, who always made less money and had worse working conditions, lost too.
Since we're getting rid of things, lets get rid of the Commons like fire depts, police depts, rules governing Gas, Electric, Phone and other communications. A real good example of no fire dept was in the old Roman days. I believe it was Pompei who owned the fire dept in Rome. His guys would pull up to your place and if you didnt pay, just let your place burn.
We need to get rid of all laws on constructions, Haiti's beautiful this year. No buildings to obstruct your view. Lets get rid of the NIH and all the health depts and dont forget the laws to cover the practice of medicine. Best of all, just think of money we can save if you get rid of the Army and Navy.
If we work it right, we can have a country just like Somalia. Now that's a real Conservative government for you.
We are a country and as a country, we have to draw lines somewhere, so where would you, any of you, draw the lines.
What do you think is Right and Wrong?
POT
" ... but, as the Declaration of Independence says, a right to the pursuit of happiness." (Quote from Nickm)
You are correct. The Declaration of Independence does say we all have the right to the pursuit of happiness. It does not say we have the right to happiness itself ... just the pursuit thereof. If someone considers healthcare part and parcel to happiness ... and its a good arguement that it is ... let them go out and pursue it. I have no issue with helping those who are physically and per or mentally unable to make that pursuit. I have extreme issue with those who are able but unwilling ... those whose concept of pursuit is to take it from someone else.
FR
Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness
pursuit of happiness means "property"
the govt has no right to your life, your liberty or your property.
property = realty, personalty, ideas, intellectual property, money, patents, contracts, etc, etc.
the Declaration and the Constitution with its Bill of Rights and ammendments restrict government. They curtail it; not empower it.
there is no right to health insurance in these documents.
everything everyone wanted (affordability, access, no pre-existing, portability, competition, cost containment, no caps, etc, etc) could have been had without the monstrosity that passed.
beware of any bill that has "comprehensive" in its title. the devil is in the details. "We won't know what's in the bill until we pass it." - Nancy Pelosi
"you scream nail the other guy until your (sic) the other guy." Didn't the tax on cadillac health plans get eliminated? There's a benefit that is certainly income.
answer me this: why were 150 new bureaus created, why were 16,000 new IRS agents hired, why are the taxes immediate and the benefits postponed for four years, why are programs being cut, why was the student loan deal included in a health insurance bill?
Does it look like we are losing our lives, our liberties and our properties?
every law and every tax takes away our freedoms and liberties.
folks, there was a way better way to do this!
don't buy any more "comprehensive" legislation.
vote 'em out!
FR
do you believe in the draft or the all volunteer armed forces? ever live where there was a "volunteer" fire department or a bigger area where the fire was privately run? they work just fine, thank you.
we had a health insurance system that worked fine for most folks, and they liked it by and large. it just needed tweeking. it didn't need a massive government take over. "This is just the begining." - Barack Obama
what it needed was:
Bust fraud and abuse.
Tort reform (no frivilous, caps on actual damage, and no punitive).
A huge infusion of IT technology.
Competition across state lines.
Competitive pools.
Special pools for special people who need relief.
Each of those could have been a separate "up or down" votes with no earmarks.
There is so much pork in what passed that it is going to oink up the place for years to come.
Repeal and replace with something much better. The sooner the better. jimho fwiw
Mel
We talking about banks or the healthcare per insurance industry?
Funny how people only seem to get really upset by having their money taken by others who don't have much. When the rich steal it, we grimace, rail a bit and then reassume the position.
What the f does fairness have to do with anything?
This is posted as a rhetorical point, not intended to be construed as support for any particular position (except the one we have all been assuming over the past couple decades).
Still employed, but things are very slow, lol.
Nickm
IMHO, I agree, this bill sucks, but the alternate sucks worse. When you have unlimited money going into politics, you get bills like Medicare Part D, which makes this bill look like something from the gods.
Will this bill get changed and improved? We all hope so.
Despite the fact that I believe health care is a right, the facts are that right now, we're all paying for every ones health care, either directly or indirectly.
IMHO, in the long run, because of the constant cost increases, the inability of you and I to limit costs and monopolist business practices, the fact that health care isnt like buying a car, meaning you cant go somewhere else and dicker for a better price, we will all be better off healthwise and moneywise when health care becomes part of the Commons.
We all complain about the cost of government, the cost of goods and just the plain cost of our day to day lives.
Twenty years ago America ran the world. Our products were the gold standard, so we could set prices and not worry about the cost of making products. We made the rules.
Today we are becoming unable to compete with the rest of the world. We MUST find ways to lower the cost of doing business. Business paying for health care is no longer competitive.
Twenty years ago, products cost a percentage above the cost of manufacture, so it was profitable to pay for health care, because business could make more profit passing those costs on to the consumer. If you make 10% above the cost of goods, then you make more money if the product cost $5 to make instead of $3.
We can all talk about this bill, but it's law and no matter what the other guys tell you, it will be law next year and long after we're all gone. I suggest we find ways to get special interests out of the process and bring hard working Americans back in control of the process.
Then and only then can we make this better for all of us. Isnt that the real goal?
FR
"nah nah nah" - Aflac Goat
"get special interests out of the process" - like, mebbe, union leadership? aarp leadership? taxpayer funded lobbying group leadership?
your "this is not perfect" argument should stop right there. It is horrible.
Tell me, if part of this law if found unconstitutional, should all who took an oath to support and defend the constitution be voted out of office?
this law will not get improved. "This is just the begining." - B Obama
If we are already paying everyone's health care why are we paying for it again?
corporations and unions shuffling their legacy costs off onto the taxpayer is what sucks.
The real goal is to get the govt out of our pockets and to start responding to the people.
If they've been in Wash, D.C. more than 4 years vote them out.
Nickm
Can I buy you a new brand of shampoo? :)
Exactly what parts of government do you want out of your life?
Please be specific?
Thanx
------------------------------
This is pretty much where to thread ran out of steam, but I found it fascinating to read my thoughts and opinions against other's thoughts and opinions.
Please allow me to continue my thoughts on what the cost of health care is doing to our America.
If we're going to compete in this new world economy, we have no choice, but to take the cost of health care out to of the cost of goods.
Consider these two realities on how health care affects most of us.
Today, health insurance companies take 30% from either your personal money or business' dollars, for the cost of doing business or profit, while Medicare costs only 3%.
Lets assume the direct money from your pocket or business' pocket is $300 per month to your insurance company. Let's say it would cost 5% for government or another non profit source, to run your health program.
Right now, you would be paying $90 per month out of your pocket to profit making insurance companies, just to run your health insurance program, while only $15 per month to government or a non profit, for the same service. However, your government or non profit wouldn't cost $300 per month, it would only cost you $225 per month. $3600 per year or $2700 per year, for the same service. Which do you want to pay?
Does it matter that you save $900 per year from paying taxes or insurance? Personally, like business, I only care about my bottom line.
For business, that reduces the cost of making a product or providing a service and that means, business becomes more competitive. For you, that reduces your cost of living or adds cash to your wallet.
Look at it this way. Right now the cost of health care to business and our economy, in some cases, is the greatest single cost to the price of some goods or services in America. If we want our economy to grow, if we want America to continue to be the world's economic gold standard, we have only one choice to stay competitive with the rest of the world's emerging economies. Get the cost of health care out of the cost of goods and services.
Second, let's assume we take the cost of health care out of the cost of goods. If you've read some of my past posts on DailyKos, you know I worked in the Motion Picture Industry for over 30 years. Let's say a feature film costs 100 million dollars. Historically the cost of "below the line" workers, the guys who aren't considered talent, is 15% of the budget.
Take 2% out of the cost of "below the line" and you save two million dollars from the cost of the feature's production. I've been in contract negotiations and I know the cost of health care comes mostly out of the raises I would have added to my paycheck.
Instead of raises of between 2% and 4% a year, rarely 4%, I would probably have received raises of 3% to 6% a year.
Out of the 2% saved from the 100 million dollar film's budget, I would have probably earned an additional 1%, while the producers would saved the other 1%, but what's a million dollars to a 100 million dollar film? One Million Dollars!
What is 1% of several billion dollars in production costs? Almost real money. What is 2% to 4% or more, from the cost of manufacturing a car or a pound of steel? JOBS, PROFIT and even better, bringing manufacturing back to America. More jobs, more manufacturing, a stronger economy? More taxes to pay for health care, meaning more money in our pockets.
If we make more personal income, if your business makes more profit, we take more money to the bank and pay more taxes, then the economics become circular. Everyone’s bottom line benefits.
Over the last year of health care’s verbal warfare, we’ve heard almost nothing of these middle class reasons for any health care bill’s passage. Why is that? Why have we only heard reasons that have little or no real impact on our daily lives? I’ll leave those anwers to you, but I think we’re all smart enough to know who controls message.
If you've done any homework during the recent health care fight, you know we Americans, pay twice the cost for health care of Canada, the county paying the second highest health care costs. In fact, we pay as much for health care, as the next 13 countries added together.
Starting to feel a bit ripped off? Try this, we have the best health care in the world, if you have money or a great health plan, but overall, most of us have a level of heath care that only ranks 37th in the world.
Why aren't we paying the same rate as the rest of the civilized world? Because the rest of the civilized world has some form of government controlled health care and we don’t. It's no longer just competing economically with the rest of the world, it's are we ever going to be able to compete again?
If we ever again, want to see America as the worlds economic gold standard, we must take the cost of health care out of the cost of goods and services and accept the same fact that countries, from democracies to dictatorships have understood.
Government controlled forms of health care isn't just good for people, it's good for business and your bottom line!