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This is what the new Arkansas state representative - elect, Republican Loy Mauch believes.

He is part of and former head of a neo-confederate group, Sons of the Confederate Veterans.  He is also a current member of The League of the South.

The League of the South advocates for Southern secession and an independent southern nation.

While the LoS doesn't come right out and say they're racist,

The Southern Poverty Law Center calls the group a "neo-Confederate" organization, adding that League rhetoric often bears racist overtones. "The League believes the 'godly' nation it wants to form should be run by an 'Anglo-Centric' (read: white) elite that would establish a Christian theocratic state and politically dominate blacks and other minorities," an SPL report said.
-- Arkansas Times

There are interesting gems from their website (not to mention the advertisement on their website screaming for civil war: SOON!) about how they intend to accomplish secession.  But until that manifests itself they are planning to:

. . . We intend to form active chapters in every county in every Southern State, and as many chapters as possible in non-Southern States. We also encourage individuals and families to personally secede from the corrupt and corrupting influence of post-Christian culture in America. We call this "abjuring the realm," and it's a real and dramatic first step all of us can take by simply withdrawing our support of and allegiance to a regime that has imperiled our future.

While we seek to use shame and contempt to de-legitimate the institutions controlled by the Empire, we must not stop there. We must create our own parallel institutions to which our people can attach their loyalties. A good example of this is the move out of the "public" schools and into home schooling or the establishment of our own private academies. Also, the League sponsors weekend Hedge Schools and week-long summer institutes to educate our people.
-- LoS website

The United States of America is the [evil] Empire. (cue Star Wars music).

Republican Mauch replaces Democrat Mike Burris, who was at the end of his term limit.  Mauch's opponent was Democratic candidate Terry Bracy.  Bracy says that he didn't have this information at the time.  There is some question as to whether or not he'd have used it if he had.

"Everybody is entitled to their opinion, I guess," Bracy said. "I was hoping maybe that the electorate would be more in tune with that. I really didn't want to be negative in the campaign to be honest with you."

How is pointing out that someone belongs to certain organizations, especially it those organization advocate for the secession of the country, "going negative?"

You are not saying "Have you ever been or are you now a COMMUNIST?"  
He belongs to the group, there is no question.  He's listed on their website as a chair.

When confronted with this by the Arkansas Times, Mauch went all "Todd Palin."  

. . . While Mauch said he isn't as active in the Tea Party as he once was, he's very sympathetic to their goals, saying they've "got it right" about limited government.

Asked about his involvement in the League of the South, which listed him as the chairman of their western Arkansas chapter as late as 2005, Mauch said that he's a dues paying member, but is too busy to be active in the organization and doesn't attend meetings. He said the chair position was "just a title." Contrary to the League website, Mauch said the group doesn't want the former Confederacy to stray from the Union again. "We don't think we should secede from the Union," Mauch said. "We just want constitutional government.

Then he add this sentence which should erase all doubts about the man.

Secession has never been unconstitutional.

Among all this concern is a lesson for Democrats who have forgotten how races are won.  To win this seat Mauch went door to door and listened to people.   Candidates for national office cannot go door to door but they cannot skip over localities, states, etc.

Olde tymie electioneering works.  The 50 state strategy  works because it says every state is important.  You can't say "I feel your pain," and then say "only these states are important to campaign in because they are all that's needed to win."

People in the states ignored don't feel that they are important enough to a candidate for their vote.  Just like people in a town don't feel important enough to a candidate who doesn't take the time, and footwear to meet them and listen. So neither votes.

But also it allows the opposition to paint and set the narrative for the absent candidate.  The Democratic party is still dealing with the effects of the narrative set by the Republicans during the Clinton administration.  Though Gov. Dean did a lot to take that on and out. After the 2008 win the DNC seemed ready to throw that all away.

The battle for 2012 has already begun.  The election results of 2008 shook racists and those who are not aware that they are racists to their core.  Their world was not only rattled but shaken as if a 8.4 earthquake struck.  And they will fight to put it all back "right."

With Republicans tacit approval in not calling out the racism, but joining in it, and the money Citizen's United funneled to them, 2012 will very much be the battle defining how our nation will move forward, or backward.

How did Mauch celebrate Obama's presidential win?  He argued in a letter to the editor that the Confederate [Battle] Flag should be made  larger in one of the town squares.

Oh and don't worry about that "Biblcal government" stuff he believes.  Mauch said it doesn't mean theocracy.

****
edited to add:  Thank you for the rec list.  I hadn't expected it and was about to get up and fold laundry.

Originally posted to Clytemnestra on Sun Nov 14, 2010 at 10:09 AM PST.

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  •  Tip Jar (223+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Mike S, Alumbrados, ljb, Sylv, chrississippi, Alma, lapin, grollen, ogre, Timaeus, Cali Scribe, tin woodswoman, emal, Fishgrease, Ed Drone, Goobergunch, hyperstation, Byron from Denver, eeff, Ahianne, regis, opinionated, bronte17, highacidity, stevej, chimpy, dchill, Iberian, wader, psnyder, Moody Loner, BleacherBum153, TexDem, grannyhelen, houyhnhnm, Catte Nappe, annetteboardman, alizard, Matt Esler, side pocket, tomjones, vacantlook, slapshoe, snowbird42, Josiah Bartlett, sawgrass727, bloomer 101, Bluesee, radarlady, Tinfoil Hat, Ckntfld, BluejayRN, jiffypop, SherwoodB, Alice Venturi, ChemBob, TigerMom, eru, goldrick, cfk, majcmb1, Gordon20024, lotlizard, CT yanqui, blue jersey mom, mph2005, wiscmass, FindingMyVoice, Ekaterin, grada3784, terjeanderson, RJDixon74135, Nowhere Man, pico, esquimaux, buddabelly, gwilson, myboo, tobendaro, tonyahky, Yellow Canary, Naniboujou, blueoasis, shrike, bubbanomics, JVolvo, bleeding heart, sceptical observer, myrealname, ER Doc, Something the Dog Said, Cenobyte, Clive all hat no horse Rodeo, big annie, blueoregon, kurt, Temmoku, Eryk, DBunn, pgm 01, john07801, dotsright, Loudoun County Dem, dmh44, camlbacker, Jimdotz, terabytes, Historicus, Steve In DC, joyful, aliasalias, kingyouth, Orange County Liberal, Seneca Doane, jayden, Uberbah, jnhobbs, millwood, hopi13, rogereaton, gizmo59, sk4p, JaxDem, dotster, wayoutinthestix, Involuntary Exile, bythesea, elwior, skohayes, blue book, tofumagoo, royce, mayim, pamelabrown, happymisanthropy, NogodsnomastersMary, mofembot, Seamus D, glendaw271, luckylizard, GrannyOPhilly, Leo in NJ, LaFeminista, maggiejean, prettygirlxoxoxo, Louisiana 1976, Bule Betawi, DontTaseMeBro, Dirtandiron, Rick Aucoin, janmtairy, velvet blasphemy, JesseCW, Daily Activist, allep10, kevinpdx, DaNang65, sherijr, Nonconformist, mahakali overdrive, davespicer, porchdog1961, catilinus, appletree, rosecar, pyegar, LaughingPlanet, jethrock, Eddie L, ItsSimpleSimon, Kristina40, NYWheeler, Texas Cowboy, JRandomPoster, OrganizedCrime, Oh Mary Oh, TigerStar337, Colorado is the Shiznit, kerflooey, ozsea1, StateofEuphoria, Dixiedemocrat, AuroraDawn, freesia, BlueJessamine, Susipsych, QuestionAuthority, soothsayer99, Coilette, Kcox, Jen Green, Cinnamon Rollover, BarackStarObama, Idgie Threadgoode, LSmith, aoeu, bloomin, Jantman, SteelerGrrl, Anthony Page aka SecondComing, zenox, weinerschnauzer, DRo, No one gets out alive, Azazello, Mathazar, Prairie D, HamptonRoadsProgressive, CuriousBoston, angry marmot, Aji, Siri, We Won, delmardougster, pitbullgirl65, Socratic Method, multi, talismanlangley, teabaggerssuckbalz, supercereal, randytheram, Frank33, howarddream

    Bumper sticker seen on I-95; "Stop Socialism" my response: "Don't like socialism? GET OFF the Interstate highway!"

    by Clytemnestra on Sun Nov 14, 2010 at 10:09:19 AM PST

  •  The thing is (39+ / 0-)

    Some of this would be funny if these weren't the kind of people to start grabbing guns and playing paratrooper in the woods on weekends.

    These people sound not even racist but mentally unhinged.

    Like, if you replaced some of the words in there with "Aliens" or "The Lizard People" it'd be hilarious.

  •  So Jesus ran the southern strategy? (27+ / 0-)

    Damn crazies

    "Another world is not only possible, she is on her way. On a quiet day, I can hear her breathing." Arundhati Roy

    by LaFeminista on Sun Nov 14, 2010 at 10:17:46 AM PST

  •  Come on man! (9+ / 0-)

    What does racism have to do with solving our country's problems?!  As far as I can see, it really doesn't have anything to do with anything except providing fodder for the poor, whiny clappers to make excuses for a piss-poor President!

    If Obama had manned, dicked, balled and foreskinned up and passed progressive policies, then these Confederates wouldn't have the power they have now!  If Obama grabbed his nutsack with both hands, then Republicans wouldn't have spread all those lies about him.  I'm glad they're makin' the battle flag bigger!  Obama needs to see how big he fucked up!

    Oba-MA bumaye! Oba-MA bumaye!

    by fou on Sun Nov 14, 2010 at 10:18:07 AM PST

  •  Can't we just find some island somewhere (6+ / 0-)

    and ship all these asshats off to live on it?  The South itself is quite pretty, and I'm trying to be optimistic that the morons giving it a bad name are in the minority, so why don't we keep that and get rid of the idiots?

    But hey, I'm sure that secession thing will work out WAY better in 2010 than it did in the 1800s.  /eyeroll

    If you want to fight and die for my right to sit here and bitch, sleep with whomever you want.

    by talismanlangley on Sun Nov 14, 2010 at 10:19:26 AM PST

  •  Fixed your tags. :) n/t (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Clytemnestra, soothsayer99, Siri

    Oba-MA bumaye! Oba-MA bumaye!

    by fou on Sun Nov 14, 2010 at 10:24:12 AM PST

  •  There is a big piece of me that says (8+ / 0-)

    let them secede.

  •  Last I Checked They Kind Of Lost That War (17+ / 0-)

    My father's PhD is in Civil War history. I spent my entire youth, on summer vacation, walking Civil War battle fields throughout the country. I get the south being proud of the service of their family members. I get it.

    But they also have to get that a lot of Americans, not just African Americans, are not so happy our family members served and died fighting them.

    And that flag, well it kind of reminds us of that. We're not fans.

    "In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act." - George Orwell

    by webranding on Sun Nov 14, 2010 at 10:27:37 AM PST

  •  Gee, what was happening then? (12+ / 0-)

    Founded in 1994 in Killen, Ala., The League of the South advocates for "the secession and subsequent independence of the southern states from this forced union and the formation of a southern republic," according to the "Introduction" page on its website.

    When a Democrat is in charge they don't believe in the constitution.

    I was Rambo in the disco/ I was shootin' to the beat/ When they burned me in effigy My vacation was complete. Neil Young

    by Mike S on Sun Nov 14, 2010 at 10:31:14 AM PST

  •  Yeah, but the nuts on the Left are just as bad, (18+ / 0-)

    right?
    I mean we've got a wacko up here in Oregon that wants a progressive income tax and money spent on alternative energy.

    "The kid in the combat gear is dead because the men in the suits failed."-me

    by porchdog1961 on Sun Nov 14, 2010 at 10:37:03 AM PST

  •  Instead of posting the 10 commandments... (5+ / 0-)

    ... they could just post, on a giant 7 ton stone, the Confederate Constitution. Put it right there in the fucking rotunda. Perhaps they could go woth all caps on their favorite part:

    No bill of attainder, ex post facto law, or law denying or impairing the right of property in negro slaves shall be passed [by Congress]

    "As God is my witness, I thought turkeys could fly."- Arthur Carlson

    by bobinson on Sun Nov 14, 2010 at 10:42:47 AM PST

    •  I think that would be an excellent idea (5+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Ahianne, bobinson, tobendaro, sk4p, conlakappa

      it would end forever this romantic revisionism of what the Confederacy was about.

      I've asked people who spout this "state's rights" stuff if they've ever read the Confederate Constitution, they've all said "no."

      I send them a link to it.

      Bumper sticker seen on I-95; "Stop Socialism" my response: "Don't like socialism? GET OFF the Interstate highway!"

      by Clytemnestra on Sun Nov 14, 2010 at 10:45:33 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  Jesus was the worlds first known (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Clytemnestra

    Con Man or at least his handlers were and I support secession completely...as i would love these states to wake up and realize they no longer received benefits and money from the Feds and could no longer do business across state lines.

    •  I take issue with the "con man" characterization (0+ / 0-)

      of Jesus ... but yes, they could and would pull a Rick Perry awfully fast.

      Bumper sticker seen on I-95; "Stop Socialism" my response: "Don't like socialism? GET OFF the Interstate highway!"

      by Clytemnestra on Sun Nov 14, 2010 at 10:46:41 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  I'm an atheist and I'm cool with Jesus, as are (14+ / 0-)

      most atheists I know, actually. I think he was a pretty chill guy, and if more people followed his teachings - his ACTUAL teachings - life would improve. I can get behind putting the stones away and loving my neighbors. Unfortunately, what we have are a bunch of sanctimonious Pharisees instead.

      in everything give thanks.

      by terra on Sun Nov 14, 2010 at 11:07:39 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Yes, one can follow the teachings without (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Clytemnestra, blueoregon

        buying into the Catholic ideology that was created in the aftermath of his execution. Unfortunately, relatively few Christians or atheists are familiar with what he actually taught.

        I never liked you and I always will.

        by Ray Blake on Sun Nov 14, 2010 at 01:02:11 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  As an atheist (0+ / 0-)

          who is familiar with what the Gospels' Jesus actually teaches, I have a hard time understanding why anyone who's not a dyed-in-the-wool Christian finds him a laudable character.

          Moreover, as various studies (such as this one) have found, at a level of statistical generality at least, atheists tend to be substantially more knowledgeable about the Bible than Christians are.


          There is one very serious defect to my mind in Christ's moral character, and that is that He believed in hell. I do not myself feel that any person who is really profoundly humane can believe in everlasting punishment. Christ certainly as depicted in the Gospels did believe in everlasting punishment, and one does find repeatedly a vindictive fury against those people who would not listen to His preaching -- an attitude which is not uncommon with preachers, but which does somewhat detract from superlative excellence. You do not, for instance find that attitude in Socrates. You find him quite bland and urbane toward the people who would not listen to him; and it is, to my mind, far more worthy of a sage to take that line than to take the line of indignation. You probably all remember the sorts of things that Socrates was saying when he was dying, and the sort of things that he generally did say to people who did not agree with him.
          You will find that in the Gospels Christ said, "Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of Hell." That was said to people who did not like His preaching. It is not really to my mind quite the best tone, and there are a great many of these things about Hell. There is, of course, the familiar text about the sin against the Holy Ghost: "Whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost it shall not be forgiven him neither in this World nor in the world to come." That text has caused an unspeakable amount of misery in the world, for all sorts of people have imagined that they have committed the sin against the Holy Ghost, and thought that it would not be forgiven them either in this world or in the world to come. I really do not think that a person with a proper degree of kindliness in his nature would have put fears and terrors of that sort into the world.

          Then Christ says, "The Son of Man shall send forth his His angels, and they shall gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity, and shall cast them into a furnace of fire; there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth"; and He goes on about the wailing and gnashing of teeth. It comes in one verse after another, and it is quite manifest to the reader that there is a certain pleasure in contemplating wailing and gnashing of teeth, or else it would not occur so often. Then you all, of course, remember about the sheep and the goats; how at the second coming He is going to divide the sheep from the goats, and He is going to say to the goats, "Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire." He continues, "And these shall go away into everlasting fire." Then He says again, "If thy hand offend thee, cut it off; it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into Hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched; where the worm dieth not and the fire is not quenched." He repeats that again and again also. I must say that I think all this doctrine, that hell-fire is a punishment for sin, is a doctrine of cruelty. It is a doctrine that put cruelty into the world and gave the world generations of cruel torture; and the Christ of the Gospels, if you could take Him as His chroniclers represent Him, would certainly have to be considered partly responsible for that.

          - Bertrand Russell, "Why I Am Not a Christian"

      •   attributed teachings is more accurate (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Clytemnestra

        as most things were passed on orally for generations before being in print, and why not there weren't many people at that time that could read, so as oral legends go exaggerations are imminent. The next thing you know people will say he walks on water.

        But it doesn't matter where the teachings originated if it gives people a better way of looking, and living life (IMHO)and if it makes lives happier, if it helps people better examine their acts, or lack of, more power to the story.

        without the ants the rainforest dies

        by aliasalias on Sun Nov 14, 2010 at 08:39:24 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Well... (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Clytemnestra, aliasalias

          But it doesn't matter where the teachings originated if it gives people a better way of looking, and living life (IMHO)and if it makes lives happier, if it helps people better examine their acts, or lack of, more power to the story.

          Okay, but those are much bigger "if"s than just about anyone on this thread realizes. The Gospels say what they say—including a large number of very ugly things (here's a small sampling) that the denizens of this thread appear to have no idea about.

          •  I definitely meant cherry pick good suggestions (0+ / 0-)

            if something some supposed person said,( as repeated generations later), gives any positive guideline that people will accept, for whatever reason, then it's useful for good. Too bad we have to have some  character that was crafted over the centuries for a guideline to any good behavior.
            The 'Apocrypha' has all the texts of the Bible, meaning all the ones left out because the stories were too fantastic, contradictory, or showed Jesus in a bad light, and they obviously didn't get all of the bad stuff purged. (good examples at your link)
            For example stories like Jesus pushing a kid off a roof was pulled out ,and considering all the bad stuff purged from the accepted final text of the Bible, I believe there was a historical person named Jesus.

            without the ants the rainforest dies

            by aliasalias on Mon Nov 15, 2010 at 03:13:54 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  Really? (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              aliasalias

              If I resolve to jump into Godwin's Law with both feet, do you really believe this?

              I definitely meant cherry pick good suggestions if something some supposed person said,( as repeated generations later), gives any positive guideline that people will accept, for whatever reason....

              So if you ran into a crowd of people who thought Hitler was a swell guy, you'd seriously stoop to cherry-picking nice lines out of Mein Kampf while talking to them? (BTW, there are plenty to choose from; it's a huge book, and the author talks about love, caring, pride, etc., quite a bit.)


              Anyway, I think our current context isn't merely "Let's cherry pick some good suggestions." In point of fact, we live in a society in which the Bible—the entire Bible, complete with the horrible parts—is extremely easy to find and consult. It isn't up to you which passages from the Gospels, or any other portion of scripture, people will consult in making decisions in their lives.

              In that light, isn't it a little more important what the character of Jesus was like in broad terms that don't fixate on a small number of nice passages? Regardless of what you prefer to cherry-pick, the Jesus promising genocide and condoning slavery and spitting racist hatred and (especially) shrieking that his enemies will burn in Hell remains all over the Gospels, right in front of your audience's eyes.

              Wouldn't it make more sense to do what we can to discredit the very notion that we should look to that book to find worthwhile moral lessons and exemplars? In light of all the baggage that comes along with lauding the Bible and the characters in it, wouldn't it make more sense to steer society toward repositories of moral wisdom that are less terrifyingly uneven?

              •  good ideas didn't originate with the Jesus (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Rieux, Clytemnestra

                character, and people do cherry pick stuff, from the Old and New Testament, but I don't think the Bible should be a reference point to decide what is right. I don't think many people have actually read much of the Bible, so all they have are certain quotes pulled out of it, and some people like MLK cherry picked verses from it in his crusade for Civil Rights. I don't see that happening with Mein Kampf because of the author's life, but no one person is responsible for what's in the Bible. Too bad the entirety of Jesus' life isn't looked at, but even that story differs from gospel to gospel, but it isn't and about the only good about it is based on what people cherry pick.

                FWIW I would rather the Bible would be either ignored, or viewed with all the ugly parts included ,but it's not happening right now and when social activists stand behind whatever good precepts they feel are validated by the Bible (that were good before the Bible), good things have happened (MLK). I appreciate the work of some Churches and I don't see them separating their acts from what they perceive as Bible sanctioned charity, but I find it hard to believe that they all have missed the bad parts. In short, I think some very well meaning people have used it as a cudgel to better others' lives and probably will continue to do so for at least one more generation.

                without the ants the rainforest dies

                by aliasalias on Tue Nov 16, 2010 at 01:49:56 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

      •  Really? (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Clytemnestra, aliasalias

        if more people followed his teachings - his ACTUAL teachings - life would improve.

        Color me skeptical. I'm grateful that not too many folks try to follow "ACTUAL" teachings like these:

        But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.

        - Jesus, in Luke 19:27


        I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

        - Jesus, in John 15:6


        But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

        - Jesus, in Matthew 8:10-12


        The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

        - Jesus, in Matthew 13:41-42


        Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels. ... And these shall go away into everlasting punishment.

        - Jesus, in Matthew 25:41, 46


        And that servant [slave], which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.

        - Jesus, in Luke 12:47


        And being in Bethany in the house of Simon the leper, as [Jesus] sat at meat, there came a woman having an alabaster box of ointment of spikenard very precious; and she brake the box, and poured it on his head.

        And there were some that had indignation within themselves, and said, Why was this waste of the ointment made? For it might have been sold for more than three hundred pence, and have been given to the poor. And they murmured against her.

        And Jesus said, Let her alone; why trouble ye her? she hath wrought a good work on me. For ye have the poor with you always, and whensoever ye will ye may do them good: but me ye have not always.

        - Mark 14:3-7 (italics added)


        And from thence [Jesus] arose, and went into the borders of Tyre and Sidon, and entered into an house, and would have no man know it: but he could not be hid. For a certain woman, whose young daughter had an unclean spirit, heard of him, and came and fell at his feet: The woman was a Greek, a Syrophenician by nation; and she besought him that he would cast forth the devil out of her daughter.

        But Jesus said unto her, Let the children first be filled: for it is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it unto the dogs.

        And she answered and said unto him, Yes, Lord: yet the dogs under the table eat of the children's crumbs.

        And he said unto her, For this saying go thy way; the devil is gone out of thy daughter. And when she was come to her house, she found the devil gone out, and her daughter laid upon the bed.

        - Mark 7:24-30 (italics added)

        So, here, we have Jesus ("ACTUAL"ly) promising genocide; shrieking hellfire and brimstone (and he does that many, many, many more times in the Gospels than you see above); condoning slavery; displaying a notably arrogant callousness toward the poor; and finally harboring deep racist resentment, under which Syrophenician Greeks are "dogs" unworthy of healing.

        I have a hard time understanding how one can read the Gospels and come away with the notion that this is "a pretty chill guy."


        I can get behind putting the stones away and loving my neighbors.

        Unfortunately, in the Gospels Jesus has several times as many words to say about his opponents burning in Hell as he does about stones or about kindness to neighbors.

        And this is not exactly a new observation:

        Now here is a curious thing. It is believed by everybody that while [God] was in heaven he was stern, hard, resentful, jealous, and cruel; but that when he came down to earth and assumed the name Jesus Christ, he became the opposite of what he was before: that is to say, he became sweet, and gentle, merciful, forgiving, and all harshness disappeared from his nature and a deep and yearning love for his poor human children took its place. Whereas it was as Jesus Christ that he devised hell and proclaimed it!

        Which is to say, that as the meek and gentle Savior he was a thousand billion times crueler than ever he was in the Old Testament -- oh, incomparably more atrocious than ever he was when he was at the very worst in those old days!

        Meek and gentle? By and by we will examine this popular sarcasm by the light of the hell which he invented.

        - Mark Twain

    •  Imagine the money saved (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Clytemnestra

      pulling all those government services out of the New Confederacy...plus closing down all the military bases and training facilities, pulling out the recruiters, shutting down the VA hospitals. Veterans and anyone who wants to leave can apply for political asylum; make them pass a test to determine eligibility. (Question 1: Is the Bible or the Constitution the basis of United States law?)

      Shop Liberally this holiday season at Kos Katalog

      by Cali Scribe on Sun Nov 14, 2010 at 02:48:06 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  hmm a new interactive NYT map (0+ / 0-)

        balance the budget by closing and moving all the US bases .... dang there are some bases/towns in MA and RI that are going very sad they were down sized and some pieces sold off

        Bumper sticker seen on I-95; "Stop Socialism" my response: "Don't like socialism? GET OFF the Interstate highway!"

        by Clytemnestra on Sun Nov 14, 2010 at 02:59:30 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

  •  Can we just let the GOP have the South.. (4+ / 0-)

    ..and we'll take the rest of  the country? :)

    "That's quite a jump. But you keep it up, I'm sure one day you'll clear that shark."

    by Steve In DC on Sun Nov 14, 2010 at 10:44:03 AM PST

  •  he apparently didn't get the message (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Clytemnestra, pgm 01, john07801

    that the south LOST.  They got their asses KICKED.
    sounds like someone in the south needs a reminder ass-kicking.  lol

    •  shhhhh, they don't like to hear that (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      gayjustice

      Bumper sticker seen on I-95; "Stop Socialism" my response: "Don't like socialism? GET OFF the Interstate highway!"

      by Clytemnestra on Sun Nov 14, 2010 at 10:48:46 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  No, no, no! (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Clytemnestra, pgm 01, gayjustice

      Last time I was in Georgia, there was a letter to the editor of the Atlanta Constitution complaining how the northerners often cited the treatment of Union soldiers as Confederate prisoners-of-war when the North did their fair share of torture, too.  An important observation 150 years after the fact.

      Ever seen those "It ain't over" signs?  To them, it ain't!

      I used to be Snow White...but I drifted.

      by john07801 on Sun Nov 14, 2010 at 11:09:06 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  If the South had seceded US would have a modern (12+ / 0-)

    social safety net that includes universal health care, and have a higher standard of living, and much more income equality. More like the countries in Western Europe.

    The Confederacy would probably be a third world country ruled by a tiny entrenched elite.  

    {;~P)

    Demand Filibuster Reform call your Senators at (202) 224-3121 -AND KEEP CALLING

    by Lefty Coaster on Sun Nov 14, 2010 at 10:52:08 AM PST

  •  All the 'let them secede' talk above, (15+ / 0-)

    I know is meant in frustration, but it cuts to the heart of what you said above about the 50-state strategy:

    People in the states ignored don't feel that they are important enough to a candidate for their vote.  Just like people in a town don't feel important enough to a candidate who doesn't take the time, an footwear to meet them and listen. So neither votes.

    In our communities, we should already be organizing not just for 2012, but for 2014, 2016, and on.  I'm under no illusion that I can drag my old home district in southern Louisiana to a progressive candidate in just two years, but there's infrastructure needed, and there's doors to be knocked on, and people to be talked to, and these things take a lot of time.

    Saint, n. A dead sinner revised and edited. - Ambrose Bierce

    by pico on Sun Nov 14, 2010 at 10:53:06 AM PST

  •  This is no shocker -- where was the push back (11+ / 0-)
    from the left all along??

    And yes you were warned well over a year ago...

      title=

    This noise is about race. It is about "othering" a President who is seen as a symbol of white dispossession: dispossession of white hegemony, white entitlement, white expectation, and white power, unquestioned and unchallenged from the darker skinned other. This is what animates the every move of the angry masses, individual exceptions notwithstanding.

    Unless the left begins pushing back, and insisting that yes, the old days are gone, white hegemony is dead, and deserved its demise, and that we will all be better off for it, the chorus of white backlash will only grow louder. So too will it grow more effective at dividing and conquering the working people who would benefit-all of them-from a new direction.

    "....while there is a soul in prison, I am not free." Eugene V. Debs

    by soothsayer99 on Sun Nov 14, 2010 at 10:58:12 AM PST

  •  With every bit of news, I hope that the max crazy (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Clytemnestra, sk4p

    has been reached. Then more news. Would be interesting to see the birthrate of R vs D, homeschooled vs all other.

  •  I saw a sticker on the back of a truck that said (5+ / 0-)

    NOBAMA in the Stars and Bars flag of the Confederacy.

    Instead of the Stars, the word nobama was used twice in each slanted X bar portion of the flag. Sad...

    "We are a Plutocracy, we ought to face it. We need, desperately, to find new ways to hear independent voices & points of view" Ramsey Clark, US AG

    by Mr SeeMore on Sun Nov 14, 2010 at 11:02:06 AM PST

  •  I read their FAQ. They claim Anglo-Celtic people (13+ / 0-)

    settled the South and gave it its dominant culture. HAH! Settled it on the backs of slaves. Profited off of the backs of slaves. Held up their culture on the backs of slaves. The historic south would have been NOTHING without black people.

    in everything give thanks.

    by terra on Sun Nov 14, 2010 at 11:05:52 AM PST

  •  Limited government (4+ / 0-)

    While Mauch said he isn't as active in the Tea Party as he once was, he's very sympathetic to their goals, saying they've "got it right" about limited government.

    If the  Conservatives  are so against big government, why do they keep running for office?
    How I loath them, and that damn flag. Hey Crackers: you lost, we won, and we are tired of your fapping over The War Between the States (tm) Frankly, this Yankee ( Massachusetts  born and bred New Bedford)is tired of her tax dollars funding your Ofay ass.

    Peace sells/but who's buying Megadeth 1986

    by pitbullgirl65 on Sun Nov 14, 2010 at 11:07:56 AM PST

  •  So ironic that the League of the South (8+ / 0-)

    describes their intention as "abjuring the realm" in light of the meaning of that phrase in the history of English Law. Abjuration of the realm was an alternative allowed to felons (yes, there's the key... to felons) who, having sought sanctuary in a church, rather than submit themselves to the law could confess their guilt and swear an oath to leave the country within forty days. The felon would be given a map to the nearest port, dressed in sackcloth and sent on their way. Failure to leave the country was punished by death...

    Real stupidity beats artificial intelligence every time. (Terry Pratchett)

    by angry marmot on Sun Nov 14, 2010 at 11:13:42 AM PST

  •  Projectionism: (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Clytemnestra

    Part of a "history lesson" I never learned in school

    The sort of destruction laid upon Southerners can be sold to the public only if the targets of that destruction are demonized to the point of having their humanity stripped away. Then they become non-persons against whom the vilest depredations can be righteously excused. For decades before the war Southerners were stigmatized as a brutal and backwards people in dire need of punishment and repentance. Thus all that was done to them they deserved. Both public and private organs in the North perpetrated a false image of Southern "savagery:" the murder of Union prisoners on the battlefield; the unique horrors of Andersonville prison; and the complicity of Jefferson Davis in the assassination of Abraham Lincoln. By such lies and distortions, the War Department and the Congressional Joint Committee on the Conduct of the War place the mark of infamy upon the South. Northerners who took a less emotional view of the South also had ulterior, mercenary motives: the restoration of the former Confederate states to the Union as markets for Northern goods and capital. They hoped that through contact with the North the region could be morally regenerated and brought to see the benefits of Republican rule.

    I was Rambo in the disco/ I was shootin' to the beat/ When they burned me in effigy My vacation was complete. Neil Young

    by Mike S on Sun Nov 14, 2010 at 11:15:12 AM PST

    •  intereasting how those people who object to the (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Mike S, royce, soothsayer99

      treatment of their fore-bearers now has no problem visiting it on American Muslims.

      Bumper sticker seen on I-95; "Stop Socialism" my response: "Don't like socialism? GET OFF the Interstate highway!"

      by Clytemnestra on Sun Nov 14, 2010 at 11:18:36 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  My favorite whine. (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Clytemnestra

      What does Obama really stand for, besides his vaunted "change?" By what principles would he govern if elected? This brings us back to our opening thought. The only change Obama or Clinton or McCain embody is the change that has been going on steadily ever since Father Abraham destroyed the Old Republic with his war of aggression against the people and States of the South. He set in motion an inexorable assault on the liberties of all the American people, starting with us Southerners. He launched the rise of an oppressive state that overturned the constitutional republic of 1789 with its limits on the powers of the central government. The campaign of 2008 is the culmination of that process, the realization of socialism or ‘soft’ Marxism. It’s the consolidation of an all-powerful Empire no longer bound by checks and balances, subject only to its own will as the final judge of its authority. Election day in November 2008 will see an even stronger "unitary Executive," a President who is above the law and can make sweeping life-or-death decisions that involve the whole country, on his own and without accountability.

      I was Rambo in the disco/ I was shootin' to the beat/ When they burned me in effigy My vacation was complete. Neil Young

      by Mike S on Sun Nov 14, 2010 at 11:26:02 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  "Soft Marxism?" (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Clytemnestra

        Sure, unfurl that flag.

        There were alternatives to "the war of aggression."

        Maybe John Brown and Nat Turner's way would've been a better resolution to the South's slave owning plutocracy that in large part sadly survived the conflict to perpetuate their delusional racism.

        Meteor Blades seems to do an outstanding job of community moderation despite the abject failure to be perfect.

        by catilinus on Sun Nov 14, 2010 at 12:17:22 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

    •  South Carolina Talked Rebellion in 1780 (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Clytemnestra

      before the Constitution was even written, SC was talking secession.

      I forget which of the Founders called them backwards and practicing a degenerate and hateful form of Christianity.

  •  The plague of progressive gentility. (5+ / 0-)

    Mauch would not have used the truth (!) to keep a neo-Confederate out of Congress.

    God help us.

    This is something that drives me nuts about progressives. They are so "above" the rough and tumble of politics. If your opponent is a confessed or proven pedophile, let the people know!  If he is an out and out crook--can you say Florida?--let the people know! If he's the kind of guy who wants half the country to be his own version of the C.S.A., let the people know!

    But do we do this? Even when working with facts that actually bear on someone's worthiness for office? Oh, no. That might not be nice. That's beneath us.

    The only thing that should be beneath us is what the Republicans do...spreading unfounded rumors... taking "facts" totally out of context....telling outright lies.

    But if you have a fact, and it's something the voters need to know, get it out there!  

    Freedom has two enemies: Those who want to control everyone around them...and those who feel no need to control themselves.

    by Sirenus on Sun Nov 14, 2010 at 11:19:04 AM PST

    •  See if you can dig up ... (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Clytemnestra, Dixiedemocrat

      the late 80s SNL sketch "The Liberal".

      The Liberal is confronted by his girlfriend's conservative father, who is about to shoot him, but then the father says "Ahh, I won't shoot an unarmed man" and tosses The Liberal a gun.

      The Liberal says something principled about not believing in violence and throws it away.

      It got laughs, to be sure, but it's all too dreadfully true.

      "A good president does what's possible and a great president changes what's possible." --sterno

      by sk4p on Sun Nov 14, 2010 at 12:12:24 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  As an Arkansan (8+ / 0-)

    these neo-confederates embarass the hell out of me.  I still have my 'Rednecks for Obama' bumper sticker on my truck.  No one says shit about it. I keep hoping, but no takers in two years.

    But, if any fool thinks that the average white guy in Arkansas votes Republican because of his stand on 'lower taxes,' he should listen to the chatter at the coffee shop or the feed store.  Most of them think Obama is the 'anti-christ.'  Not because of his 'socialist' policies, but because he is black, pure and simple.

    Don't piss down my back and tell me it's raining!

    by Arkieboy on Sun Nov 14, 2010 at 11:38:09 AM PST

  •  "zoroaster, take the wheel!" (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Bulldawg, Clytemnestra

    democrats may make you sick, but republicans will kill you

    by memofromturner on Sun Nov 14, 2010 at 12:06:34 PM PST

  •  Oh, for crying out loud. (7+ / 0-)

    This jackwagon doesn't get to define what "The South" is. His concept of it -- white Christians who admire the Confederacy -- doesn't even include about half the region's own population.

    But of course it plays into everyone else's misconceptions and stereotypes about the region, so we get the usual moronic chanting about letting "them" secede.

    That "them" includes a significant portion of the nation's minority populations, many millions of Democrats, and of course a lot of Kossacks. So we should secede - or get tossed out - because morons like this guy get elected somewhere? No f*cking way.

    So cut that sh*t out. Put down your broad brush and your shot gun, and take shots at the actual problem: people like the subject of this diary, and people who think like him. And leave the region-baiting and stereotyping to the GOP.

    "If you don't stick to your values when they're tested, they're not values. They're... hobbies." -- Jon Stewart, Jan. 22, 2009

    by pat208 on Sun Nov 14, 2010 at 12:10:45 PM PST

  •  It is so embarrassing (2+ / 0-)

    that people like him (dumb asses)  are elected to congress.  I really fear for the country.

    It's not a "pledge for America" it is a "pledge for American Corporations."

    by regis on Sun Nov 14, 2010 at 12:13:53 PM PST

  •  With apologies to Jacopo Belbo and Umberto Eco (8+ / 0-)

    How to distinguish a moran from a lunatic:

    "I’m getting there. A lunatic is easily recognized. He is a moron who doesn’t know the ropes. The moron proves his thesis; he has a logic, however twisted it may be. The lunatic, on the other hand, doesn’t concern himself at all with logic; he works by short circuits. For him, everything proves everything else. The lunatic is all idee fixe, and whatever he comes across confirms his lunacy. You can tell him by the liberties he takes with common sense, by his flashes of inspiration, and by the fact that sooner or later he brings up the Templars."

    Light is seen through a small hole.

    by houyhnhnm on Sun Nov 14, 2010 at 12:19:32 PM PST

  •  I love how this group (4+ / 0-)

    assumes there's going to be a war to stop them from seceding.  Buh-bye baby.  According to my Google search, Arkansas gets back $1.41 for each dollar they pay in federal taxes.  It's a net gain if they go, and hey, let's swap - we'll take the minorities from Arkansas and they can have all the bigots and members of the Tea Party from the United States.    

  •  We call this "abjuring the realm," (5+ / 0-)

    I call it "treason."

    QUICK! HIDE GRANDMA! T3H DETH SKWADS IZ COMINGZ!!!1

    by Bulldawg on Sun Nov 14, 2010 at 12:34:07 PM PST

  •  That's not even the fucking Confederate Flag (9+ / 0-)

    You want to fly the Confederate flag because your state was part of the confederacy, fine.

    But that ain't the fucking Confederate Flag he's talking about.  It's the Confederate Battle Flag, which flew over no state capitols during the Civil War.

    That was a regimental flag which was then adopted by the KKK nearly 40 years after the fucking war.

    So these racists crackers are not just racists and crackers, their uneducated, ignorant mother fucking racist crackers.

    God it's so painful that something that's so close, is still so far out of reach. Tom Petty/Al Gore

    by Velvet Revolution on Sun Nov 14, 2010 at 12:38:33 PM PST

  •  Making this (2+ / 0-)

    all about race is a mistake. I don't doubt what you are saying about the rep but calling people racists makes them mad hence one of the reasons people voted against the Dems in 2010 among other things. IMO, it's the same tactic that Bush used calling everybody traitors and it's tiresome.

    Attacking the GOP on their tired old solutions and rotten ideas is the better way to go IMO.

    I'm too disgusted right now to think of a sig.

    by Ga6thDem on Sun Nov 14, 2010 at 12:56:39 PM PST

    •  yes, calling me "fat" makes me mad too (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Ahianne, conlakappa, CuriousBoston

      but it is what I am.

      The tired old GOP traditions includes stirring up the racists ... they are,

      Bumper sticker seen on I-95; "Stop Socialism" my response: "Don't like socialism? GET OFF the Interstate highway!"

      by Clytemnestra on Sun Nov 14, 2010 at 02:53:46 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Yeah (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Clytemnestra

        but nobody's attacking anybody for their weight are they? I think the racist thing makes people shut down and not even listen to what you are saying. And I say this as someone who lives in the south where people will scream and call you communist. After they say that, do you even want to or care to hear what they are saying?

        I'm too disgusted right now to think of a sig.

        by Ga6thDem on Sun Nov 14, 2010 at 03:18:28 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  this is a dairy here (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          CuriousBoston

          where we can be honest, supposedly

          in no where do I advocate going up to a racist and saying to his/her face "You are a racist"

          and I wouldn't, you don't win anything that way
          and in my experience only good friends can get friends to think about their inadvertent racism by pointing it out.

          But I'm not speaking to a racist here ... I am pointing out that they are racists here

          You are welcome to write a diary about how we shouldn't label racists, racists.

          Bumper sticker seen on I-95; "Stop Socialism" my response: "Don't like socialism? GET OFF the Interstate highway!"

          by Clytemnestra on Sun Nov 14, 2010 at 03:26:26 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  I didn't say (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Clytemnestra

            that there weren't racists but some of the claims of racism seem to go towards anybody who criticizes Obama which actually helps the real racists out there IMO get away with what they are doing.

            I'm too disgusted right now to think of a sig.

            by Ga6thDem on Sun Nov 14, 2010 at 03:34:51 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  true (0+ / 0-)

              much like anyone who criticizes Israel is not antisemitic

              we devalue what those words mean when we carelessly throw them around like that.

              Bumper sticker seen on I-95; "Stop Socialism" my response: "Don't like socialism? GET OFF the Interstate highway!"

              by Clytemnestra on Sun Nov 14, 2010 at 03:44:32 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

  •  I didn't realize Jesus was crucified on a (3+ / 0-)

    St Andrews' cross instead of, ya know, the usual Roman kind.

    For relevant sci-fi and fantasy, go to http://www.betty-cross-author.net/

    by Kimball Cross on Sun Nov 14, 2010 at 12:58:48 PM PST

  •  That's great. (2+ / 0-)

    I thought the Repubs were too looney for the American public but apparently not, so the Repubs will have to get even more looney befor the next election.

    This guy should help.

    I, for one, welcome our new hillbilly overlords.

    by Bush Bites on Sun Nov 14, 2010 at 01:03:34 PM PST

  •  They've already seceded from (5+ / 0-)

    the Rational World, and they've taken Congress with them.

    These are sick people, and sometimes I want to tell them what I tell my students: "If you're sick and  really need to leave, don't cause a disruption -- just leave unobtrusively and quietly close the door behind you."

    "The truth does not change according to our ability to stomach it." -- Flannery O'Connor

    by teachme2night on Sun Nov 14, 2010 at 01:11:14 PM PST

  •  Yes! Let them form an Ignorant nation (3+ / 0-)

    of their own and watch how many try to get over the border fence we will have to erect against them, Joe Miller style, complete with barbed wire and shoot to kill.

  •  You absolutely nailed the importance of the 50 (4+ / 0-)

    State Strategy.

    Sorry I can only Rec' this once.

    There are no "permanent tax cuts". 9th grade civics, people.

    by JesseCW on Sun Nov 14, 2010 at 01:15:45 PM PST

  •  Somehow I... (2+ / 0-)
    ..think Jesus would disagree with Loy Mauch.

     I don't think Jesus wants to be associated with a flag that symbolizes an army that went down in ignominious defeat.

    Jesus wants to be associated with the flags of victors.

    Somebody should tell Loy Mauch that.

    Dear Jon Stewart: Your fall has been assiduous. You are now the left's version of Dennis Miller.

    by wyvern on Sun Nov 14, 2010 at 01:25:23 PM PST

  •  Well, secession isn't unconstitutional (2+ / 0-)

    It's only that the process isn't described there explicitly. However, just as the exact process for adding a new state to the union is not spelled out there in so many words, there is a panoply of very clear hints as to how to go about seceding.

    You'd need approval of the state legislature(s), and nowadays, probably the citizens of the states. And you'd need to put together a Bill of Secession that would have to pass both houses of congress. Essentially, you'd be doing the Constitution's statehood process in reverse:

    New States may be admitted by the Congress into this Union; but no new State shall be formed or erected within the Jurisdiction of any other State; nor any State be formed by the Junction of two or more States, or Parts of States, without the Consent of the Legislatures of the States concerned as well as of the Congress.  The Congress shall have Power to dispose of and make all needful Rules and Regulations respecting the Territory or other Property belonging to the United States; and nothing in this Constitution shall be so construed as to Prejudice any Claims of the United States, or of any particular State.

    The problem the southern traitors had was that they knew they'd never get a secession bill through Congress, so they unilaterally declared secession. Then, out of unmitigated arrogance, they attacked the US Army, kicking off the War Between the States. Not only was this against the Constitution, but it was really, really stupid if their goal really was primarily to split off from their natal union.

    By the way, I doubt that any modern-day state could get a Bill of Secession approved either within the state itself or in Congress.

    Texas, maybe.

  •  150 Years Later and . . . (3+ / 0-)

    Some people in the South still can't get over the fact that 1) they lost and 2) regarding the stupid flag, citing heritage does not cover up the hate.

  •  The stars and bars represent the ANTI-CHRIST (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Clytemnestra, conlakappa

    And this man has never known the God he claims to be an agent of.

  •  The "divinely inspired" US Constitution does not (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Big Tex, Clytemnestra

    mention whether or not a state may secede.  How could the Creator be so absent-minded?

    •  The "divinely inspired" Constitution (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Clytemnestra

      doesn't even mention the creator that supposedly inspired it.  I guess he must have just been having an off day. (^_^)

      Proud member of the unpaid "professional left" since 8/10/2010 / Viva Canadian healthcare! Death to the Pentagon! Free Mumia!

      by Big Tex on Sun Nov 14, 2010 at 02:33:39 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  Jesus a Confederate? LOL (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Cali Scribe, rosabw, Clytemnestra, PhilJD

    If Jesus had been around during the Civil Rights Movement, I have a feeling that Loy Mauch's intellectual predecessors in the white sheets would have strung him from a tree instead of nailing him to a cross -- mostly because they saved all their crosses to be torched at Klan rallies and burned in the front yards of black families.

    It should be noted that what we currently refer to as the Confederate or rebel flag never actually flew over the confederacy. It's actually a combination of the colors from the Confederate Battle Flag and the dimensions from the Second Confederate Naval Jack, and wasn't created until after the Civil War.  It became popular among Southerners during the Jim Crow era, and should rightfully be thought of as a product and symbol of that era. The rebel flag never flew over the Confederate States nor was it carried into any battle by Confederate servicemen, but it was carried prominently by those protesting the desegregation of schools and other public institutions.  There are probably still a few African-Americans left alive who remember seeing that flag being waved as a symbol of hatred and intimidation by gauntlets of screaming white racists.

    By saying that the Confederate flag is a symbol of Jesus Christ, what Mauch is indirectly saying is that Jesus was a racist and would have approved of both segregation and the violence that was used to defend it. I'm not a Christian and I'm not even sure that Christ ever existed, but if he did and if we can judge him by what the Bible says about him, I'm quite certain that what Mauch is saying indirectly about him is bullshit.

    Proud member of the unpaid "professional left" since 8/10/2010 / Viva Canadian healthcare! Death to the Pentagon! Free Mumia!

    by Big Tex on Sun Nov 14, 2010 at 02:32:19 PM PST

  •  Not in MY church (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Clytemnestra

    it ain't.

    I'm beginning to think that we'd be better off letting some of these areas split off -- considering how much they cost to support them and how few tax revenues they bring in, it could be the best deficit reduction method out there. Then when they come crawling back begging to be readmitted when they find out how hard it is to run a country, charge them a repatriation fee. And maybe after all this country is just too damn big to govern effectively anyway.

    (I think I'm joking...)

    Shop Liberally this holiday season at Kos Katalog

    by Cali Scribe on Sun Nov 14, 2010 at 02:43:51 PM PST

  •  Christian theocratic state?!?!? (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Clytemnestra

    The CSA cabinet had a Jew in it over a generation before the USA cabinet did.

    Lincoln played to Evangelical voters as few presidents have before or since.

    I doubt anyone died in Pickett's charge fighting for a 6-year, non-renewabole presidential term, the right of cabinet secretaries to vote in the Senate, or a line-item veto, but a lot of rebels thought they were fighting for traditional American freedom of religion against an attempted takeover by Puiritan Evangelical Yankee do-gooder liberal abolitionists.

    They were wrong, but that's what they thought.

  •  I actually walked out of a Skynyrd concert when (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    GlowNZ

    they tied that thing to their microphone stand.

    Can't we get rid of this blasted thing already?

    "Raise your hand if you think Social Security and Medicare are Socialism."-Lawerence O'Donnell

    by AZphilosopher on Sun Nov 14, 2010 at 03:04:14 PM PST

  •  I am intolerant of intolerance. (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    brainwave, Clytemnestra, GlowNZ, Amber6541

    I hate the hate.  I'm also a Southerner who lived on Monument Avenue in RVA for quite some time.  For those of you who have never lived in the South, please don't bash an entire portion of the U.S.A. just because there are some real ignoramuses that happen to reside here.

    There are also a lot of amazing, loving, open-minded people here.  I just attended a Native American Expo all weekend and there were beautiful people of every hue in attendance.  The spirit of the event brought me and my Mom to tears.

    Hate the hatred.  Thanks for the good diary Clymnestra-T&R'd.  

    "The truth does not change according to our ability to stomach it." - Flannery O'Conner

    by Dixiedemocrat on Sun Nov 14, 2010 at 03:41:52 PM PST

    •  thank you for all your input! (0+ / 0-)

      Bumper sticker seen on I-95; "Stop Socialism" my response: "Don't like socialism? GET OFF the Interstate highway!"

      by Clytemnestra on Sun Nov 14, 2010 at 03:42:57 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  I wish I had met some of the good southern people (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Clytemnestra

      when I lived there.  But I have to say on the whole I did not.

      The people I met were not "evil". But I heard time after time remarks about how blacks were just not suited to doing "white" jobs.

      California turned Blue America turned Insane.

      by GlowNZ on Sun Nov 14, 2010 at 04:24:56 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  and that was just the tame stuff (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Clytemnestra, susanala

        I won't repeat some of the really bad stuff I heard.

        It doesn't help that this comes from the poor whites who have been poor since  the civil war and they blame blacks for what happened to them.

        California turned Blue America turned Insane.

        by GlowNZ on Sun Nov 14, 2010 at 04:26:10 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  My greatest frustration (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Clytemnestra

          My dad grew up on a dirt farm in Lamar County, Alabama, during the Great Depression. When plowing involved a mule named Emma (pronounced Emmer). Who would kick you in the head if you didn't do to suit her.

          His family lived to tell the tale only because of the FDR programs. And my mamaw and papaw proudly voted "the straight Dim'crat ticket" their whole lives. They could barely read or write, but they voted for Adlai frickin' Stevenson! They voted for JFK, even though they thought Catholics were akin to devil worshippers. I can't say they weren't racist, but the Southern Strategy didn't work on them. Papaw died in 1975, mamaw in 1982. Neither ever voted for a Republican in so much as a dogcatcher's race.

          But OMG their children after them. They all turned Rethuglican, based mostly on appeal to bigotry.

          I wish I could find a way to explain it, without sounding all high and mighty. Remember when the rich townies made sure the honest farmers stayed poor and starving? It's the same damned thing! Your common cause is with other poor or beat-down folks. Not with Wall Street bankers. If hating on black people is more important to you than voting for people who actually want to help you ... well how the hell can anybody help you?

          Also, it would help if so many Dems hadn't gone corporatist. But that's another rant altogether.

          Just because you're not a drummer doesn't mean that you don't have to keep time. -- T. Monk

          by susanala on Sun Nov 14, 2010 at 05:09:28 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

  •  I remember when I first arrived here in USA (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Clytemnestra, raincrow

    It was too Biloxi Mississppi.  Talk about a huge culture shock.

    I arrived right at the time where the was a HUGE protest by Confederate Flag supporters (racists) and African Americans who correctly saw the Confederate Flag as the flag of Slavery.

    Talk about an eye opener to race relations from a girl from New Zealand.

    I didn't know much but it was obvious to me that the Confederate Flag Supporters were a bunch of racist assholes who were deliberately provoking African Americans by waving it in their faces.  

    At one of the "rallies" some of the supporters were armed.  

    Apparently they thought the African Americans were all going to show up and shoot them.  I told one asshole, no they won't.  Thats what your ancestors did to the African Americans.  Thats YOUR behaviour , not theirs.

    Not a smart thing to say to a guy who was armed.  But I knew he wasn't going to shoot a white female.  I was safe.

    Ugh.

    California turned Blue America turned Insane.

    by GlowNZ on Sun Nov 14, 2010 at 04:20:21 PM PST

    •  don't be so sure, especially since you and I (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Jantman

      are married to "non-whites" (but as my husband points out, he probably has more Aryan blood in him than they do) because you and I are "race traitors"

      sigh

      My high school was named for one of the four cardinal directions (actually all 4 original high schools in Denver were named for each of the cardinal directions)

      Somewhere in the 30, 40s or 50 (I haven't discovered which yet) my high school adopted the mascots and images from the Confederacy (now you should be able to figure out which cardinal direction my high school was named for).

      In the late 80s they finally got rid of the confederate flag ... two years ago they got rid of the Rebel Head - which has caused another furor.

      I literally  had a lady at my parents church (also an alumn from my high school) spitting mad because I supported the change.

      Bumper sticker seen on I-95; "Stop Socialism" my response: "Don't like socialism? GET OFF the Interstate highway!"

      by Clytemnestra on Sun Nov 14, 2010 at 04:30:41 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  I know I'm not supposed to wish that they secede (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Clytemnestra, raincrow

    because of all the poor people who can't leave those states and would be left alone to deal with the reign of these lunatics.

    But really. Isn't there some unpopulated place in the Oklahoma Panhandle or on Jupiter where these freaks can go and play Jesusland and leave those of us who prefer to live in the 21st Century alone? That would be one country I wouldn't mind building a fence around.

    "Will the highways of the internet become more few?"
    - GWB asketh, Verizon/Google answereth

    by brainwave on Sun Nov 14, 2010 at 04:22:02 PM PST

  •  MSNBC (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Clytemnestra

    has a commentator who is a part of this very group and is allowed to influence everyday.

  •  Let them, my civl war relatives (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Clytemnestra
  •  Nothing about the Confederacy was Christian (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Clytemnestra

    And the activities of the KKK have allows been the polar opposite of the message of Christ, true?

    Why do they burn the cross at the KKK meetings? Because they are destroying, unconsciously, the teachings of Christ. As the cross burns, all witnesses know that the proceedings want to eliminate Christianity, and the method used is to pretend like their violent, prejudiced, nasty lives are somehow Christian, right?

    The Confederacy & the KKK are seriously bent.

    Greenspan admits his free market faith was "a mistake" - Reliance on self interest creates a flaw "in how the world works."

    by Otherday on Sun Nov 14, 2010 at 05:48:26 PM PST

    •  asdf (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Clytemnestra

      Nothing about the Confederacy was Christian / And the activities of the KKK have allows been the polar opposite of the message of Christ, true?

      No, false.

      The right of holding slaves is clearly established in the Holy Scriptures, both by precept and example. - Rev. Richard Furman (1755 - 1825), first president of the South Carolina State Baptist Convention


      There is not one verse in the Bible inhibiting slavery, but many regulating it. It is not then, we conclude, immoral. - Rev. Alexander Campbell (1788-1866), "early leader in the Second Great Awakening"


      [Slavery] was established by decree of Almighty God ... it is sanctioned in the Bible, in both Testaments, from Genesis to Revelation ... it has existed in all ages, has been found among the people of the highest civilization, and in nations of the highest proficiency in the arts. - Jefferson Davis (1808-1889), President, Confederate States of America


      And that servant [slave], which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.

      - Jesus, in Luke 12:47

      The modern incarnation of the KKK has always been interested in a kind of random violence and intimidation that is somewhat more disorganized and scattered than is Jesus' inhumanity in the Gospels—but as long as we're talking about the Confederacy, their Gospel credentials are as strong as anyone's, Twenty-First Century liberals very much included.


      Because they are destroying, unconsciously, the teachings of Christ.

      Uh, no. There are more "teachings of Christ," Horatio/than are dreamt of in your philosophy.


      Some of [Jesus'] parables are not just foggy, but to me, they're really sort of offensive. Like, in Luke, Jesus helps us understand God's relationship with humans by telling us a story about how God treats people the way people treat their slaves. They beat some more than they beat other ones.

      Okay, I know this was a different time and everything, and I really tried to keep that in mind as the Bible refers to slavery all over the place. And not only does it not say it's wrong, I mean, the Bible gives advice about how you're supposed to keep your slaves and how slaves should behave obediently at all times to their masters.

      But I don't know, I sort of thought the Son of God would say slavery was wrong. But no, Jesus does not say that. In fact, he uses slavery as an example of how God treats people.

      - Julia Sweeney, "Letting Go of God"

      •  You are as selective as the Rebs were. (0+ / 0-)

        So those tidbits of Christianity that you choose to cite pretty much sum up the totality of the religion? Aren't you being extremely selective just to prove a point?

        What about the Abolitionists who also use the same religion to buttress their arguments against slavery? You don't mention them. Why?

        Yes, slaves have always existed -- the UN study says there are about 22 million slaves today, right now. Recall that Jesus repeatedly describes himself as a "servant," and to make the point he washes the feet of his disciples. He doesn't do that because he hates slaves, of course. It's all part of his "love your neighbor" philosophy. The Confederacy/KKK wasn't like that, right?

        Anyway, you claim that the Confederacy/KKK are Christian to the core and that there is no disconnect between the Christian religion & the Confederacy/KKK. I completely disagree. The hate preached by the KKK is the opposite of "love your neighbor as yourself" and spits in the face of God, at least the God as understood by most Christians.

        And I say this as a Protestant Secularist, out of fairness to those Christians who try to walk their talk.

        Greenspan admits his free market faith was "a mistake" - Reliance on self interest creates a flaw "in how the world works."

        by Otherday on Mon Nov 15, 2010 at 09:04:47 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Huh? (0+ / 0-)

          So those tidbits of Christianity that you choose to cite pretty much sum up the totality of the religion?

          Of course not. When did I say that they did? (When did I say anything about "Christianity" at all?)


          Aren't you being extremely selective just to prove a point?

          Well, I was indeed "prov[ing] a point"—I was rebutting the following assertion of yours:

          Nothing about the Confederacy was Christian / And the activities of the KKK have allows been the polar opposite of the message of Christ, true?

          As the material I quoted (and there's plenty more that I didn't but could have) shows, that assertion is heavily dubious.


          There's some real irony in your response to me. You made a huge generalization, asserting that "[n]othing about the Confederacy was Christian." It is you, not I, who have actually purported to "sum up the totality of the religion." All I did was point out some of the evidence showing that you're mistaken, that there is plenty of material within Christianity that supports Confederate notions, especially about slavery. Pointing out the evidence you have seen fit to ignore is not "selective"; it's just showing that you have been notably "selective."


          What about the Abolitionists who also use the same religion to buttress their arguments against slavery? You don't mention them. Why?

          Because they're irrelevant to the matter actually at issue—your sweeping generalization. The existence of Christian abolitionists also didn't change the fact that Jefferson Davis was right about one thing at least: the Bible is uniformly pro-slavery.

          Moreover, the abolitionist movement was considerably more secular than the American populace at the time was, and the pro-slavery demographic was more Christian. Still, though, none of the that has any relevance to the point we were actually discussing, which was the dubiousness of your declaration that "Nothing about the Confederacy was Christian."


          Yes, slaves have always existed -- the UN study says there are about 22 million slaves today, right now.

          Indeed. And the Gospels' Jesus, unlike several philosophers in his day and millions of people in ours, never said an unkind word about slavery. Quite the contrary, as I've shown.


          Recall that Jesus repeatedly describes himself as a "servant," and to make the point he washes the feet of his disciples.

          He also spits racist hatred at a suffering woman, sneers that it's more important to spend money for swanky luxuries for him than to help the poor, and promises to order the genocide of anyone who doesn't approve of his rule. Not to mention his favorite topic of all, the horrific torture of his opponents in Hell.

          Which is just to say that Jesus does a whole lot of things in the Gospels, and your heavily selective reading of those books does nothing to rehabilitate your notions that Confederate ideals were utterly un-Christian.


          Anyway, you claim that the Confederacy/KKK are Christian to the core....

          I have claimed nothing of the kind. You are doing a notably poor job of dealing with my statements accurately.


          It's all part of his "love your neighbor" philosophy. The Confederacy/KKK wasn't like that, right?

          According to you it wasn't. It's just not at all clear that that's the perspective of the deity that supposedly inspired by the Bible.

          Supporters of slavery read the Bible for centuries and saw, as Davis describes, the institution "established by decree of Almighty God [and] sanctioned in the Bible, in both Testaments, from Genesis to Revelation." The fact that you detest slavery does not change the fact that it is uniformly condoned throughout the Bible—and I imagine that Davis, Furman, Campbell, and company might point out that thinking your notions on moral questions are superior to God's looks an awful lot like "spit[ting] in the face of God" itself.


          You have made some very questionable declarations about what Christianity does and does not include. Hundreds of thousands of antebellum Christians (in the north as well as the south, as it happens) understood Christianity quite differently. They had notably strong grounds in Christian doctrine, history and (especially) scripture for believing that slavery and other forms of racism were entirely acceptable. Your notion that your conception of Christianity is superior to theirs is based on nothing objective or impartial that I can see; indeed, scriptural treatment of slavery cuts strongly in favor of pro-slavery Christians and against you.

          So your generalizations about Christianity are subject to considerable doubt. That's all.

          •  You don't like Christians much, eh? (0+ / 0-)

            You don't give Christians any credit for even attempting to lead a moral life. Not one? Perhaps you feel about Christians much the same way that an anti-Semite feels about Jews? Seems like it.

            Back during the Civil War era most of the "mainstream" churches split over the issue of slavery, true? Clearly, there were more discussions about a Christian's views on slavery than the simple one you provide. Yes, Davis & his cohort said those things. They were also in the minority. They also lost the argument, right?

            Which group did Lincoln credit with doing the most to win the war? Methodists! (Look it up.) Aren't they Christian too? Why don't you include those wonderful heroes in your constricted definition of Christianity?

            Without the various active, passionate work of Christian groups (Quakers, Congregationalists, et. el.) the Abolition movement wouldn't have gotten off the ground, most likely. And by the end of the war, according to James McPherson and others, the vast majority of Union soldiers, and Northern citizens, wanted slavery crushed in America. Your man, Davis, didn't like that -- tough shit Jeff!

            Parts of the Bible are about 3000 years old or so. There's been a lot of water over the dam since then. Yes, it is easy to abuse it because you can find just about anything in that volume. Some religious people insist that every word is true; Others, myself included, don't. Times change.

            I view the Bible like Jefferson did: read it and glean what you can that makes sense and sounds just -- and toss the superstitious stuff, the outdated junk, the magical mumbo-jumbo into the nearest dumpster, or maybe study it as an artifact of human philosophy and belief.

            Greenspan admits his free market faith was "a mistake" - Reliance on self interest creates a flaw "in how the world works."

            by Otherday on Mon Nov 15, 2010 at 12:16:40 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  What in the world? (0+ / 0-)

              You don't like Christians much, eh?

              You don't give Christians any credit for even attempting to lead a moral life.

              What are you talking about? I have never said anything remotely related to this.

              In my first comment responding to you, I pointed out some things that Jesus says in the Gospels (and some pro-slavery Christians said in response). You bizarrely accused me of opining on "the totality of Christianity," when I had done no such thing.

              In my second comment responding to you, I said a thing or two about Christianity—pointing out that it does contain material that calls very much into question your sweeping generalizations about it.

              Again you reply in bizarre category-error terms, accusing me of not "lik[ing] Christians much." WTF? When have I ever stated some kind of broad declaration about Christians?

              I really wish you'd respond to what I've actually written, instead of chopping up crazy strawmen with no evident connection to the arguments I actually make.


              Perhaps you feel about Christians much the same way that an anti-Semite feels about Jews? Seems like it.

              What kind of well-poisoning insult is that? I have made a small number of statements about a particular belief system. I have supported those statements with several citations to scripture and history. Where do you get off accusing me of some kind of hatred of Christians?

              The religious privilege you are trying to enforce aside, criticizing ideas is not the same thing as attacking people.


              Yes, Davis & his cohort said those things. They were also in the minority.

              Not true. American Christianity was predominantly pro-slavery before the Civil War. And, for the nth time, there are very clear scriptural reasons for that.


              Which group did Lincoln credit with doing the most to win the war?

              Irrelevant. That does nothing to rehabilitate your bald declaration that the Confederacy was utterly un-Christian.


              Aren't they Christian too?

              Yes, they were. But I am not the one pretending that Christians whose reading of their religion disagree with mine do not exist. That is what you are doing.


              Why don't you include those wonderful heroes in your constricted definition of Christianity?

              Pray tell, what "constricted definition of Christianity" have I provided on this thread?

              You are simply imagining an opponent that you do not have. I have never asserted what you are pretending I have.

              Moreover, once again, you are accusing me of something that you are in fact guilty of. I have never said that "nothing about abolitionism was Christian." To the contrary, there were Christian schools of thought that opposed slavery—the scriptural support for slavery notwithstanding.

              It is you who are attempting to "constrict [the] definition of Christianity" so that notions you find ugly are given no place there. You're demonstrably mistaken, as the slaveholders' scriptural arguments demonstrate—but you've got some gall accusing me of "constricting" Christianity when I am doing no such thing, but you are.


              Your man, Davis, didn't like that -- tough shit Jeff!

              Davis is not "my man," but what we were actually discussing is whether his ideas were Christian. Your summary declaration that they were not remains entirely unsupported, and it is strongly refuted by the Biblical text he and his Christian slaveholding allies cited with considerable frequency.


              Parts of the Bible are about 3000 years old or so. There's been a lot of water over the dam since then.

              Yes. That doesn't make Jesus' condonation of slavery any less Christian.


              Yes, it is easy to abuse it because you can find just about anything in that volume.

              Which is precisely what Confederate Christians would accuse you of doing right here—"abusing" a volume in which "you can find just about anything" to pretend that their position was not Christian.

              You seem to have forgotten this, but what is at issue here is your rash assertion that there was nothing Christian about the Confederacy. The numerous red herrings you have been lobbing in an attempt to distract attention do nothing to support your point.


              I view the Bible like Jefferson did: read it and glean what you can that makes sense and sounds just -- and toss the superstitious stuff, the outdated junk, the magical mumbo-jumbo into the nearest dumpster, or maybe study it as an artifact of human philosophy and belief.

              How nice for you. That calls into question whether your notions of what is and is not Christian have any relevance to the religion at all. Sad as it may make you (it certainly does me), reams of "superstitious stuff, outdated junk, [and] magical mumbo-jumbo" are among the most centrally Christian ideas in the history of the religion.


              Now if Christ is proclaimed as raised from the dead, how can some of you say there is no resurrection of the dead? If there is no resurrection of the dead, then Christ has not been raised; and if Christ has not been raised, then our proclamation has been in vain and your faith has been in vain.

              We are even found to be misrepresenting God, because we testified of God that he raised Christ--whom he did not raise if it is true that the dead are not raised.

              For if the dead are not raised, then Christ has not been raised. If Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile and you are still in your sins. Then those also who have died in Christ have perished. If for this life only we have hoped in Christ, we are of all people most to be pitied.

              But in fact Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who have died. For since death came through a human being, the resurrection of the dead has also come through a human being; for as all die in Adam, so all will be made alive in Christ.

              - Paul, in 1 Corinthians 15:12-22

              In light of the supernatural nonsense of resurrection (not to mention the belief in a literal Adam) Paul preaches, should we now conclude that "nothing about him was Christian," either?

              •  What in the Universe?!! (0+ / 0-)

                Heck.

                I'm sorry if I've rubbed some of your raw feelings. Seems like you are working 'em though. Good luck with that.

                Just because the Confederates said that what they were doing was in accord with the teachings of Christ doesn't mean that it was. You claim they were correct in asserting so; I, and many millions who fought them, say that the Confederates were full of shit.

                So let's leave it at that. You, with you arm across the shoulder of Jeff Davis and friends; Me, patting Lincoln on the back.

                Greenspan admits his free market faith was "a mistake" - Reliance on self interest creates a flaw "in how the world works."

                by Otherday on Mon Nov 15, 2010 at 01:56:35 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  Pfft. (0+ / 0-)

                  I'm sorry if I've rubbed some of your raw feelings.

                  Whatever. You posted poor arguments; I refuted them; you disregarded the matter at issue and posted different equally poor arguments, leavened with absurd misrepresentations about me. Your dishonesty and illogic are not my "feelings."


                  Just because the Confederates said that what they were doing was in accord with the teachings of Christ doesn't mean that it was.

                  And the same goes for you.

                  The difference is that they had evidence in Christian doctrine, history, and scripture to support their arguments. You have nothing but your own presuppositions... and laughable logical fallacies:

                  You claim they were correct in asserting so; I, and many millions who fought them, say that the Confederates were full of shit.

                  One seldom sees such an oblivious resort to the argumentum ad populum. Gee, d'you think that maybe "millions" of Confederates thought that people like you were "full of shit"?

                  Again. Jefferson Davis and other pro-slavery Christians had evidence for their contentions. You don't. That's the relevant imbalance between you.


                  You, with you arm across the shoulder of Jeff Davis and friends; Me, patting Lincoln on the back.

                  You can stick your dishonest bullshit up your ass. You apparently prefer to forget the assertion you made that started this exchange; your baseless assertion that there was nothing Christian about the Confederacy fails to align you with Lincoln, who would never have claimed something so absurd.

                  And demonstrating—repeatedly, despite your constant attempts to distract attention from your misstatements—that your initial statement is untenable does not place me "with me [sic] arm across the shoulder of Jeff Davis." Your utter refusal to address the matter that's actually in question here is risible.

                  •  The Rev. Martin Luther King agrees with Me. (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    Clytemnestra

                    The Confederacy & KKK made all sorts of bogus claims that they stood for Christianity -- and you seem to buy it. I don't. Neither do tens of millions of Christians, such as MLK.

                    Much like those who attacked us on 9/11 claimed to be doing their deed in the name of Islam -- we are told repeatedly that what they did had nothing to do with Islam, right? They slaughtered many innocents using phony arguments. Same with the Confederacy & KKK -- religion used as a fig leaf to cover up their brutish behavior.

                    Anyhow. We're talking past each other, obviously, so I'll stop. Have a good one.

                    Greenspan admits his free market faith was "a mistake" - Reliance on self interest creates a flaw "in how the world works."

                    by Otherday on Tue Nov 16, 2010 at 09:12:10 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  You're a fallacy machine. (0+ / 0-)

                      The Rev. Martin Luther King agrees with Me.

                      So, having fallen on your face with the argumentum ad populum, you're now switching over to argumentum ad verecundiam? You're going through the list of logical fallacies at an impressive clip.

                      You do realize that that nonsense of yours is logically invalid, don't you?


                      The Confederacy & KKK made all sorts of bogus claims that they stood for Christianity....

                      Yes, you keep asserting that such claims are "bogus," but—once again!—you have no support for it. Your bandwagon and authority fallacies are not arguments; they're simply excuses for refusing to actually think about the issues your heedless declarations have raised.


                      Much like those who attacked us on 9/11 claimed to be doing their deed in the name of Islam -- we are told repeatedly that what they did had nothing to do with Islam, right?

                      We are "told" that "repeatedly," yes. And that assertion is just as dubious as your silliness. It is anything but clear that the 9/11 terrorists were wrong to believe that their acts were based on "real" Islam. Again—your bandwagon and authority fallacies aside—the terrorists' theological arguments are not self-evidently wrong.


                      They slaughtered many innocents using phony arguments.

                      You have done absolutely nothing to show that their arguments were "phony." You just don't like them. That demonstrates nothing.

                      Numerous heroes (including the deity) in the scripture and history of both Christianity and Islam have "slaughtered many innocents." If you took these issues seriously, you might notice that that reality provides support for Christian and Muslim violence today.


                      Same with the Confederacy & KKK -- religion used as a fig leaf to cover up their brutish behavior.

                      So what? Religious doctrine, history, and scripture is full to overflowing with "brutish behavoir" and overt justifications for same. Why should we share your thoughtless presupposition that claiming religion as a justification for brutality is automatically illegitimate?

                      Religion isn't about peace and love just because you wish that were the case.


                      And that servant [slave], which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.

                      - Jesus, in Luke 12:47


                      But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.

                      - Jesus, in Luke 19:27


                      I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

                      - Jesus, in John 15:6


                      And slay disbelievers wherever ye find them, and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution is worse than slaughter. And fight not with them at the Inviolable Place of Worship until they first attack you there, but if they attack you (there) then slay them. Such is the reward of disbelievers.

                      - Qur'an 2:191


                      Our Lord! Lo! it is Thou Who gatherest mankind together to a Day of which there is no doubt. Lo! Allah faileth not to keep the tryst. (On that Day) neither the riches nor the progeny of those who disbelieve will aught avail them with Allah. They will be fuel for Fire. Like Pharaoh's folk and those who were before them, they disbelieved Our revelations and so Allah seized them for their sins. And Allah is severe in punishment. Say (O Muhammad) unto those who disbelieve: Ye shall be overcome and gathered unto Hell, an evil resting-place.

                      - Qur'an 3:9-12

                      Your willful blindness to the inhumanity that exists within religion—real religion—does not make it cease to exist.

                      •  Fine, You agree with the Confederacy's Arguments. (0+ / 0-)

                        I get it.

                        I don't agree at all. Jeff Davis would be proud of you. The KKK should make you an honorary member. MLK, a Christian minister, preached something quite different.

                        Christianity has nothing to do with hatred. Jesus said, "Love your enemies," true? That's extremely radical thinking. He got killed going down that path. Real Christianity doesn't endorse the sort of hatred and bigotry that the Confederacy & the KKK represent, right?

                        Why put all your talents at the service of the Confederacy & the KKK? You deserve better.

                        Greenspan admits his free market faith was "a mistake" - Reliance on self interest creates a flaw "in how the world works."

                        by Otherday on Wed Nov 17, 2010 at 10:38:04 AM PST

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  asdf (0+ / 0-)

                          Quite clearly you have no interest in actually addressing any of the substance of any of these matters. You prefer to bait me with logical fallacies and misrepresentations of what I have written, apparently winning some kind of childish game in your own head.

                          As I have explained repeatedly (and you have mindlessly ignored repeatedly), antebellum Christians had ideas about the relationship between Christianity and slavery. As many of them recognized, their ideas find strong support in the Bible, as well as centuries' worth of Christian history and doctrine.

                          You dismiss all of this without even thinking about it, thoughtlessly tossing off bandwagon and authority fallacies. You simply refuse to think about the problem, returning instead to your own impenetrable dogma:

                          Christianity has nothing to do with hatred.

                          That is your assertion. It is disputed. There is hatred all over the Bible, including from the mouth of Jesus. If you cannot support an assertion like that—especially in the face of considerable contrary evidence—it fails.


                          Jesus said, "Love your enemies," true?

                          Sure. As I just quoted for you, he also promised to order the genocide of his enemies. He also repeatedly screamed that his enemies would burn in Hell—many, many more times than he said anything about loving those enemies.

                          You simply refuse to deal with any of this evidence. One tossed-off phrase extracted from one verse of the Bible does not erase all of the obscenity that is still in the book, including in the statements of the Gospels' Jesus.

                          Your dogmatic shibboleths about Christianity and Jesus are nothing but your own unexamined preconceptions. If you want your arguments to be taken seriously, you're going to need to actually look into these matters and think about them, rather than your current course of mindlessly presupposing them away.

                          You're simply entirely ignorant of vast amounts of evidence that's relevant to your assertions. That's your problem, not your opponents'.


                          Real Christianity doesn't endorse the sort of hatred and bigotry that the Confederacy & the KKK represent, right?

                          Why—whatever would make you think so? How do you explain away the "hatred and bigotry" that suffuse Real Christian Real Scripture, Real Doctrine, and Real History? How would you actually address the theological arguments that, as I showed you, Confederate Christians made? Your logical fallacies won't work. Your unexamined and ignorant dogmatic assertions about Jesus, Christianity, and hate won't work. What material do you actually have?

                          Or are taunts and illogic all you're capable of?

                          •  Let my empathetic pity bath you in justice. (0+ / 0-)

                            This argument that we are having is very old.

                            I had an ancestor who live in the Shenandoah Valley of Virginia back in the early 1700's. Every village had a church and they argued about what to do with slavery. 3 congregations left Virginia and moved to Ohio because they "didn't want to break bread with slaveholders." That U.S. history. That is fact -- even if you insist otherwise. You seem to think that this issue never came up among thinking people. But it did!

                            My ancestor got killed in the process. Dead. Over the slavery issue, got it? Can you figure that out? Millions of Americans struggled with this issue and it led to our worst war. The good guys won. This truth bothers you, clearly, but that is the way it is.

                            Greenspan admits his free market faith was "a mistake" - Reliance on self interest creates a flaw "in how the world works."

                            by Otherday on Wed Nov 17, 2010 at 12:06:50 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  What? (0+ / 0-)

                            I can't tell if you have an attention deficit problem or are just utterly disinterested in actually addressing the substance of this discussion. You flit about from fallacy to fallacy, diversion to diversion, spiced with bizarre misrepresentations of what I have said. Did you pick up your debate techniques from a hyperactive six-year-old, or what?


                            This argument that we are having is very old.

                            Yes, it is. And you're evidently totally clueless about what your opponents have ever argued. Your presuppositions and fallacies certainly are not relevant responses.


                            3 congregations left Virginia and moved to Ohio because they "didn't want to break bread with slaveholders."

                            Good for them. I'll bet the farm that they weren't as clueless and disinterested in what their opponents were actually arguing as you are.


                            That is fact -- even if you insist otherwise.

                            I've never remotely "insisted otherwise," you lying jackass. I have never suggested that there wasn't conflict between pro- and anti-slavery Christians, but it appears that your total disinterest in what my actual argument is has led you to imagine otherwise.


                            My ancestor got killed in the process. Dead. Over the slavery issue, got it? Can you figure that out?

                            Of course I can; between us, I am the one being honest about the reality of the connections between Christianity and slavery. Given your blind dogmas, though, I wonder how you explain it. If, as you asserted, there's nothing Christian about the Confederacy and slavery, who in the world was in those churches for your ancestor to "not break bread" with? Why would (s)he have to leave Virginia, if Christianity was unconnected to slavery? Who could possibly have killed this person over this issue, if the only people (s)he was leaving behind were Christians?


                            Your story makes a terrific case for taking these issues seriously. It's utterly bizarre, then, that you don't. Pretending that Christianity self-evidently has nothing to do with the Confederacy or slavery leaves it utterly mysterious what your ancestors were so concerned about. By your (absurd) account of the theological issues, whom could they possibly have been arguing with?

                            Your cognitive dissonance is deafening.

                          •  You seem unhappy. (0+ / 0-)

                            Go take a walk and get some fresh air.

                            Greenspan admits his free market faith was "a mistake" - Reliance on self interest creates a flaw "in how the world works."

                            by Otherday on Wed Nov 17, 2010 at 09:05:19 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  You seem mindless. (0+ / 0-)

                            Your utter refusal to address the matters at issue is an insult to the people who spent their lives dealing with them.

                          •  Whatever. Have a Good One. nt (0+ / 0-)

                            Greenspan admits his free market faith was "a mistake" - Reliance on self interest creates a flaw "in how the world works."

                            by Otherday on Thu Nov 18, 2010 at 10:56:25 AM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  And so the sun sets (0+ / 0-)

                            on this exchange without your having spent a single word addressing your opponents' arguments. Despite being given nine opportunities to do so.

                            Apparently baseless dogma, logical fallacies, and meaningless diversion is all you're capable of and/or interested in.

                            How sad.

  •  I always thought (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Rieux, Clytemnestra, OrganizedCrime

    that it was the symbol of a treasonous organization that killed United States soldiers.

    Shows what I know, I guess.

    Are you on the Wreck List? Horde on Garrosh.

    by Moody Loner on Sun Nov 14, 2010 at 06:01:02 PM PST

  •  The insane irony is... (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Rieux, Clytemnestra

    ... that these are the same folks who, in the not so distant past, were the one's saying things like, "if you don't support the war and the prez'dent, yer a ter'rist sympathizer" and so forth.

    The inadequate is the enemy of the necessary.

    by JRandomPoster on Sun Nov 14, 2010 at 06:37:49 PM PST

  •  Shameless plug (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Clytemnestra, OrganizedCrime

    My Civil War project has really taken off with four blogs posting everyday to a Facebook fan page.  Follow the history of the American Civil War as it unfolds day by day.

    http://www.facebook.com/...

  •  "Secession has never been unconstitutional." (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Clytemnestra

    Yes it has, Mauch.  We had a little shootin' match over that point.  If that wasn't enough, the Supreme Court has decided it: Texas v. White, 74 U.S. 700 (1869).

    Hooray for legislators who don't even bother to understand the law of the land.  But then, cognitive dissonance is a prerequisite to be a Teahadist.

    •  pshaw, that little ole thing of Northern (0+ / 0-)

      Aggression? You mean that thing?

      /snark

      As with Christine "Constitutional Expert" O'Donnell it's not really about reading, deep thought, understanding and discussion with those who do and do not share your point of view, it's about taking a class (maybe) in the echo chamber, listening totally to the echo chamber and repeating all their words.

      Bumper sticker seen on I-95; "Stop Socialism" my response: "Don't like socialism? GET OFF the Interstate highway!"

      by Clytemnestra on Sun Nov 14, 2010 at 08:08:38 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

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