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It has become clear that people are unclear on appropriate use of Hide Ratings.

The site FAQ is no longer linked on the frontpage (well, at the top of the page...it's still at the bottom) because it is a mess, obsolete, and needs to be redone.  Who should redo it?  Well, kos had said that the FAQ is a community project in wiki form not maintained by the admins, so anyone can update it.  He has not said that someone has been tasked with redoing the FAQ (which still remains online for your perusal).

This diary is a first step towards drafting a partial FAQ on comment ratings that can be incorporated into a larger DK4 FAQ.  This may become obsolete when Daily Kos adopts the planned Community Moderation scheme, but should still be adaptable to guidelines for flagging questionable posts in that system.  This is mainly taken from old FAQs and diaries/comments by kos.

What are comment ratings?  Who can rate comments?

Users have an option to vote to recommend, beginning one week after registration.  Additionally, "trusted users" have the ability to vote to hide comments.  They can give up to five hide ratings per day.  The ability to rate comments can be taken away due to misbehavior, either temporarily or permanently.

Why are trusted users limited to five hide ratings per day?

Unlimited hide ratings were tried and didn't work, according to kos.

Why can hide ratings no longer be recycled?

The ability to take back a hide rating so that you can use it on someone else was removed because an audit revealed "the VAST majority were used for nefarious purposes".

What is a troll rating?  What is a donut?  What is a 4?

Hide ratings were previously referred to as troll ratings, a term still used by some.  A "donut", or a "zero", is another name for a hide rating.  A "4" is another term for a recommend.  A former ratings system used to allow users to rate comments on a scale from 0 to 4.

How can you tell if a comment has been rated?  How can you tell who has rated a comment?

Next to the title of a comment are two numbers in parentheses.  (7+/2-) would indicate that seven people have recommended the comment and 2 people have hide-rated it.  Clicking on the numbers will show who has rated the comment.  Clicking on it again will hide the names.

What effect do ratings have?

Having your comments recommended increases your mojo.  Recommending comments also affects the recommender's mojo.

"If a comment has been hide-rated by two users and recommended by none, then that comment (and all replies to it) are automatically hidden. If a comment has been recommended at least once, then Hides must be applied to the ratio of 3x+1 (where x is the number of recommends) in order to hide that comment (again, all replies to the comment will also be hidden). Hidden comments and their responses can only be seen by Trusted Users."

If a commenter receives hide-ratings on a sufficient number of comments, that triggers an autoban.  The autoban formula is not publicly know, but kos has said that you need to receive a lot of HRs in a lot of different comments.  Piling on hide ratings does not trigger the autoban faster.  No amount of uprating will protect someone who has a history of being HRed.

What if I want to see hidden comments?

Trusted users can change their settings so that they can view hidden comments.  To do this, go to your profile and select "edit profile".  One of your options will be "Display hidden comments?"  The drop-down menu will have options of yes, no, or show until I hide rate.  In their "Welcome Back" box, trusted users can also click on "Hidden" to see a list of hidden comments.

What are acceptable reasons for HRing a comment?

According to Hunter, "You're saying that the comment is so bad -- so disruptive or damaging to the community -- that it isn't worth even a debate, but should be deleted from the discussion as being simply inflammatory, simply off-topic, or simply a lie."

Posting a "first" comment, in which a commenter in a new thread in other internet forums tries to post a message along the lines of "first" in the first comment.

Diary pimping, the practice of encouraging people to read an unrelated diary.  Diary pimping is permitted when relevant to the diary the comment is posted in.  It is also permitted in open threads.

Copyright violations

Racist/sexist/bigoted language

Threats or calls for violence.  "Threatening to beat up or kill someone, or suggesting that people should kill themselves, or saying that poison should be put in somebody's crème brûlée, or making similar remarks, even as a joke, is prohibited and can lead to banning. This does not mean that all forms of cartoon violence, literary references, metaphors and the like are barred."  Direct calls to violence are not permitted.

Outing Revealing the real identity or other personal information of a registered user who has not him- or herself made that identity known at Daily Kos or otherwise given permission for such information to be publicly revealed will result in summary banning. Among other things, such revelations include, but are not limited to, phone numbers, addresses, including email addresses not publicly available at Daily Kos, places of employment or clients, gender, sexual orientation, and the identities of other family members. Asking hostile outing questions such as: Do you work at such and such a place? when research has shown this to be true or likely to be true is a form of outing and will be dealt with as such.

Personal attacks on other users

Supporting conspiracy theories and other debunked talking points.

Advocating for third parties

What are some unacceptable reasons for recc'ing or HRing a comment?

Uprating a comment containing an insult or objectionable content.

Hide-rating someone who disagrees with your own opinion in a civil fashion.

Hide-rating other, acceptable comments by someone who has made an unacceptable comments

Hide-rating someone for hide-rating you or an ally.  "But I was JUSTIFIED!" is not an acceptable excuse for retaliatory ratings.

Hide-rating for idiocy.

Adult language is not in and of itself HRable (although it is banned from diary titles).

What are the primary documents used to compile this list?
The old Daily Kos FAQ
The DK4 FAQ
The Tao of Troll Rating by Hunter.
The diaries/posts and comments of Markos "kos" Moulitsas


What other questions (and answers) should be included?  Are there other reasons that should be listed under acceptable or unacceptable uses of HRs?  Which reasons need to be expanded?  (I'm going to say that a "What is racism?" is a question large enough for its own document, to be linked to from a comment ratings FAQ.)  Can you provide links to examples that can be used as cases to illustrate some of these points?

You can treat everything before the list of reasons to HR as potential language to be included in a FAQ.  The rest are raw lists of items to be incorporated.

I see several paths this can go.  Either kos ignores this effort and it potentially becomes the de facto standard adhered to by many users.  Or kos embraces it, in whole or in part with modifications he wishes to add, and it becomes the de jure standard.  Or kos repudiates it, and we are left with the sure knowledge that there is no clear standard or else he promulgates a standard of his own devising.  I see any of these outcomes as preferable to the status quo.

My plan is to use the comments in this diary (and perhaps future ones) to determine what else needs to go into a FAQ.   My preference is to only include items supported by links to diaries or comments from people with authority, such as kos or Meteor Blades, making this sort of a compilation of Daily Kos common law.  Despite having been around for a while, I have generally been absent from metawars so am unfamiliar with the body of MB's rulings.  At some point, I will put a complete first draft up on dKosopedia.  Then, it will become a community document which all are able to edit.  Although I will probably keep an eye on it and do some work to maintain it, I will relinquish any notion of "ownership".  Indeed, the best-case scenario in my mind is one where I can walk away from it whenever I want because several other people are committed to maintaining it.

Originally posted to Anthony de Jesus on Wed Sep 21, 2011 at 06:49 PM PDT.

Also republished by Troolz.

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Comment Preferences

  •  Uprated to offset what I can only imagine... (10+ / 0-)

    ..was an accidental (or hilariously funny intentional) HR.

    "If I can't dance, then I don't want to be in your revolution"--Emma Goldman

    by ehrenfeucht games on Wed Sep 21, 2011 at 06:57:47 PM PDT

    •  People are running out of excuses (4+ / 0-)

      for doing this, now that the buttons are moved back over like they are with other comments

      -
      Somebody has to do something, and it's just incredibly pathetic that it has to be us.
      ~ Jerry Garcia

      by DeadHead on Wed Sep 21, 2011 at 08:49:56 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Well, I've clicked on the wrong button more than.. (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        lineatus, LABobsterofAnaheim

        ...once and HR'd somebody accidentally.

        The popup window might help some, but it's really quite easy to click that away accidentally if your mouse is hovering over the right (or wrong!) place when it comes up.

        And I don't discount the possibility of a joke, either. Given the content of the diary, were I in a different mood, I might be tempted to do the same...lol.

        "If I can't dance, then I don't want to be in your revolution"--Emma Goldman

        by ehrenfeucht games on Wed Sep 21, 2011 at 09:02:55 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  If anyone has a hide rate without a popup (4+ / 0-)

          are you sure box, please report it immediately via the helpdesk link in the upper right corner of the page. That bug is supposed to be squashed.

          Fry, don't be a hero! It's not covered by our health plan!

          by elfling on Wed Sep 21, 2011 at 09:11:12 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  I'm not saying it doesn't happen (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          FrugalGranny, blueoasis, rebel ga

          I'm saying it doesn't need to happen.

          Watch the ratings numbers after you rate.

          Box or no box, if the HR number increases, change it, if you didn't intend to HR.

          Simple.

          -
          Somebody has to do something, and it's just incredibly pathetic that it has to be us.
          ~ Jerry Garcia

          by DeadHead on Wed Sep 21, 2011 at 09:12:37 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Well, I have a 24 inch screen at home, and ... (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            rebel ga

            ...a mouse that works.

            But I also have a 10 inch netbook that I take to work that has a touchpad that acts up.

            I can hardly see where the buttons even are!

            Not that it matters much when the touchpad doesn't behave as advertized.

            I even had somebody in my diary today who was actually trying to access the diary from her cellphone!

            Whowuddathunkit?

            LOL!

            "If I can't dance, then I don't want to be in your revolution"--Emma Goldman

            by ehrenfeucht games on Wed Sep 21, 2011 at 09:20:27 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Well (0+ / 0-)

              I'm on DK a lot, every single day. The only way I access this site is on my phone.

              As in, exclusively. So it can be done, without misfired HR's.

              No biggy. I just think it's kinda funny.

              :-)

              -
              Somebody has to do something, and it's just incredibly pathetic that it has to be us.
              ~ Jerry Garcia

              by DeadHead on Thu Sep 22, 2011 at 01:45:43 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

          •  Y'all seem more concerned than I am :) (5+ / 0-)

            I figure that a stray accidental HR doesn't have any real effect.

            •  No doubt it won't affect you (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              FrugalGranny

              It's just with more scrutiny being placed on misguided HR's in general, I think paying a little more attention to the actual result produced by rating a comment is not to much to ask of anyone.

              How-To Guide for Avoiding Accidental HR's

               ● Look at the username of the comment you are HRing. If HRing tip jar for a troll diary, does it match the username of the diarist? If not, you are HRing the wrong person.

               ● Look at the word next to the green dot. Does it say "recommend," or does it say "hide?" Alternatively, you can watch the tip/hr counter increment.

               ツ

              -
              Somebody has to do something, and it's just incredibly pathetic that it has to be us.
              ~ Jerry Garcia

              by DeadHead on Thu Sep 22, 2011 at 01:30:01 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  It wasn't accidental, (0+ / 0-)

                   I thought it was funny.

              ¡Viva Baja Libre!

              by Azazello on Thu Sep 22, 2011 at 08:14:10 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  The things people do for laughs (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Azazello

                The problem is, I wouldn't be so confident that kos, or someone with an itchy email finger shares that sense of humor, lately.

                Why not just contribute with something constructive to the diary, instead of creating unnecessary sub-threads trying to figure out why the tip jar was HRed?

                -
                Somebody has to do something, and it's just incredibly pathetic that it has to be us.
                ~ Jerry Garcia

                by DeadHead on Thu Sep 22, 2011 at 11:18:14 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

      •  I had the problem before then, with ordinary (3+ / 0-)

        non-tip jar comments, when I was posting from my phone.  It may be that there was a bug that kept the box from showing all the time, and now its fixed.  Or it might still be there... who knows?  Without the warning, it's easy to do.

    •  I vote for hilariously funny! n/t (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      ehrenfeucht games

      We may have democracy, or we may have wealth concentrated in the hands of a few, but we can't have both. - Former Supreme Court Justice Louis Brandeis

      by RageKage on Wed Sep 21, 2011 at 11:03:43 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Someone HR'd the tip jar? /snicker n/t (7+ / 0-)

    Never argue with a fool, onlookers may not be able to tell the difference.

    by Kysen on Wed Sep 21, 2011 at 06:58:03 PM PDT

  •  Hmm....we have an HR of the tip jar (n/t) (8+ / 0-)

    The United States is not just losing its capacity to do great things. It's losing its soul.--Bob Herbert. gulfgal98's corollary- Our soul is gone.

    by gulfgal98 on Wed Sep 21, 2011 at 06:58:39 PM PDT

  •  I uprated the tip jar. (8+ / 0-)

    I don't understand why a d0nut was tossed here...

  •  Personal attacks (16+ / 0-)

    Should be personal attacks against actual posters on the blog.  I see many HR's for personal attacks on the president or other figures who are not part of the community in any meaningful sense.  These are not what HR's are for.

    Politicians enter an arena in which personal attacks and criticisms are an inevitable, historic reality, and that's not going to change on a political blog for any politician some folks approve of and others won't.  Racist, homophobic, sexist or other attacks against politicians are perfectly reasonable reasons for HR's, but the imputation of personal flaws from a pattern of behavior is an inevitable part of political discussion, and cannot be censored in a community as broad as this one.  They can be vigorously disputed, but not censored.

    Don't tell me what you believe. Tell me what you do and I'll tell you what you believe. --Meteor Blades

    by Dallasdoc on Wed Sep 21, 2011 at 07:00:52 PM PDT

    •  It will be interesting to see if there's (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Dallasdoc

      Been any changes is this behavior lately. My understanding is that HR's decreased during the boycott, but that could be for a variety of reasons.

      -
      Somebody has to do something, and it's just incredibly pathetic that it has to be us.
      ~ Jerry Garcia

      by DeadHead on Thu Sep 22, 2011 at 01:49:53 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  A question that I would like addressed in the... (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Ramdove, falina

    ...FAQ.

    Is it acceptable on Daily Kos to link to photographs of interracial couples in Loving Day Diaries without permission in gun diaries?

    Yes or no?

    Kos really needs to decide this issue, since Kossacks clearly have differing opinions on the matter.

    My opinion is that authors of Loving Day Diaries do NOT intend their diaries to be used in this fashion, and that it should therefore be explicitely prohibited.

    Loving Day Diaries on Daily Kos are intended to be safe places for folks to celebrate Marriage Equality, just like on any other website.

    This issue will come up annually, every June 12th, until such time as Kos makes his opinion known.

    Let's make Daily Kos a safe place for interracial couples (and everybody else) to celebrate Marriage Equality.

    "If I can't dance, then I don't want to be in your revolution"--Emma Goldman

    by ehrenfeucht games on Wed Sep 21, 2011 at 07:05:49 PM PDT

    •  DO NOT FEED THE TROLL! (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      deedogg

      Check out today's entry.

      "Faced with what is right, to leave it undone shows a lack of courage." - Confucius

      by IndieGuy on Wed Sep 21, 2011 at 07:11:06 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Why can't we celebrate Loving Day in peace? (nt) (0+ / 0-)

        "If I can't dance, then I don't want to be in your revolution"--Emma Goldman

        by ehrenfeucht games on Wed Sep 21, 2011 at 08:04:29 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  IndieGuy, I understand you do not like (0+ / 0-)

        e games. And I'm very new to the interaction between you two, so it's way beyond obvious. I think you are behaving poorly. As kos said, one does NOT have to say they don't like someone all day every day ad infinitum.

        Move on. If you feel you were harassed/damaged by e games, talk to kos or try emailing the offending party. I know, there are some assholes that cannot be dealt with, but you appear to be losing it.

        There are people on here I have NO INTENTION of interacting with in a civil manner, because of their past actions.

        But there are lots of others here.

        •  Report me to Kos or move along. (0+ / 0-)

          If you support this guy's trolling (trollery?), then knock yourself out.  But please do not put words in my mouth.  You just look silly.  (I mean, really.  "Losing it?"  Hyperbole much?)

          To everybody else reading this entry in this diary, really all that's needed is to (a) read this entry in the context of this diary; (b) follow the link to the call-out diary where this troll made a similar (false) accusation against another Kossack; and (b) check out his comment history.

          Support whom you like, falina, but I'm off the hook on this one.  Bye now.

          "Faced with what is right, to leave it undone shows a lack of courage." - Confucius

          by IndieGuy on Thu Sep 22, 2011 at 11:35:12 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  For now (3+ / 0-)

      This FAQ will focus on things that kos (or someone else whose words carry official weight, such as Meteor Blades) have said.  In the absence of any such comment, the FAQ cannot address your concern directly.  If the powers that be have declined to punish anyone, it is because they are either ignorant of the facts or do not believe that racism is involved.  I can offer you nothing else beyond that.  If you have nothing further to add, then this conversation has probably reached the limit of its usefulness.

      I have suggested that separate FAQ addressing what constitutes racism on this site should be written.  Should anyone choose to spearhead such an effort, you can take it up with them.  You can even consider doing that yourself, for the sole purpose of having this one point addressed.

      To speak to a larger point, you don't get to control how any content you produce is used.  For example, the "guest in your house" rule does not permit diarists to squash (civil) disagreement in comments to their diaries.  Also, at the bottom of each page, it says, "Site content may be used for any purpose without explicit permission unless otherwise specified".

      If you want to argue a point in this diary, you would be better off discussing the use of an organized "hide rate on sight" policy against you.  I did not carry it over because I am uncertain about it, but the old FAQ says:

      Some posters create accounts at dkos strictly for the purpose of causing disruption. It is considered acceptable to hide all of the posts made by such people, even the ones that are not in and of themselves trollish. It should be emphasized, however, that this should not be done lightly. Before rating comments en masse, you should be very very sure that the author is really a troll, and not just a regular poster who is having a bad day. If there is any shadow of a doubt as to whether a person is a dedicated troll, you should refrain from mass-hiding their comments. To reiterate, this "hide on sight" approach should be used cautiously and rarely.

      The diary to which is appended the comment you object to says:

      Right now, there is only one person who is HROS in RKBA diaries and that is ricardomath/pigeonhole principle/banach tarski paradox/ehrenfeucht games. I will post up a comment explaining why for those who are curious and yes, that's four usernames for one person.

      I think it is a more germane question to ask when such a policy is justified.

      •  Does the FAQ allow linking to eliminationist... (0+ / 0-)

        ...websites mascurading as human rights websites on ones blogroll while linking to photos of interracial couples in Loving Day Diaries?

        http://www.dailykos.com/...

        The main indication that gun control in America has failed is the fact that its supporters are still alive. Millions of people who have invested in arms, training and lobbying in response to past restrictive legislation have no plans to surrender. If gun control efforts begin to infringe significantly on their ability to fight in the future, those who wish to disarm others will be killed.

        http://www.a-human-right.com/...

        Are there any limits at all as to what we can be subjected to?

        "If I can't dance, then I don't want to be in your revolution"--Emma Goldman

        by ehrenfeucht games on Wed Sep 21, 2011 at 08:45:38 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  This FAQ only deals with comment ratings (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          FrugalGranny, gratis4

          Blogrolls are outside the purview of this FAQ.

          •  Ok, with respect to comment ratings, ... (0+ / 0-)

            ...I would suggest that comments that link to photographs of interracial couples from Loving Day Diaries in gun diaries without permission should be HR'd, not rec'd, in order to hide the links from public view.

            Daily Kos really needs to bring itself into the 21st century.

            Marriage equality is the law of the land, at least here in Iowa, and we ought to be able to celebrate marriage equality in peace here at Daily Kos.

            That means HRing such trollish comments, not reccing them.

            "If I can't dance, then I don't want to be in your revolution"--Emma Goldman

            by ehrenfeucht games on Wed Sep 21, 2011 at 09:39:03 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

  •  The thing is... (7+ / 0-)

    ...pretty soon now hiderates are going the way of the dodo.  I agree with this diary, though.  There's no reason the same rules of engagement can't be used with the new community moderation system.

    "Faced with what is right, to leave it undone shows a lack of courage." - Confucius

    by IndieGuy on Wed Sep 21, 2011 at 07:08:17 PM PDT

  •  loving day diaries...please douse me with your (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    ehrenfeucht games

    love. as we find ourselves becoming closer and closer in this life, may we continue to always love and support each other.

    I once had a rose named after me and I was very flattered. But I was not pleased to read the description in the catalog: "No good in a bed, but fine up against a wall." ~Eleanor Roosevelt

    by Ramdove on Wed Sep 21, 2011 at 07:14:10 PM PDT

  •  It's okay to HR for revealing someone's "gender"? (0+ / 0-)

    No kidding?

    •  If it's against their wishes (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      FrugalGranny, blueoasis, Pluto

      and hasn't been previously disclosed by choice, it makes sense to me.

      -
      Somebody has to do something, and it's just incredibly pathetic that it has to be us.
      ~ Jerry Garcia

      by DeadHead on Wed Sep 21, 2011 at 09:00:13 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  One thought occurs to me (0+ / 0-)

        Should it be HRable to reveal that someone is lying about their gender?

        •  I don't know if there's history (0+ / 0-)

          behind this comment, so this reply is based only on the question you've posed (though a certain RG does come to mind):

          I think it should be unless the user lying about gender/race/religion is doing so for the specific purpose of trying to win an argument-- or make themselves part of a group they normally disparage-- they shouldn't be outed.  I think that those that do what RG did to stir shit, should just be reported to kos and banned outright.

          I don't know of any other reason someone would lie about their gender, but there ya go.

          My actions are my only true belongings. I cannot escape the consequences of my actions. My actions are the ground upon which I stand. ~Thich Nhat Hanh

          by gratis4 on Thu Sep 22, 2011 at 08:52:28 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

  •  asdf (3+ / 0-)

    Pure retaliatory HR's would be "an eye for an eye." Mentioned in diary.

    But...

    HRing for HR abuse. Casting an HR against another, who has committed HR abuse. This appears to be "acceptable" in some instances. Done by someone not involved in a dispute.

    Done indiscriminately, can be construed as sort of "extortion."

    Example: "Remove your HR and I will remove mine."

    If this was mentioned and I somehow overlooked it, disregard.

    -
    Somebody has to do something, and it's just incredibly pathetic that it has to be us.
    ~ Jerry Garcia

    by DeadHead on Wed Sep 21, 2011 at 08:31:49 PM PDT

    •  I do think that has to be addressed (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      FrugalGranny, DeadHead, gratis4

      Some people were punished in the purge for uprating comments that should have been neither recommended or HRed in an attempt to combat perceived HR abuse.

      I can probably find some precedent to support the idea that HRs (and rec's) should only be for the content of the comment being rated, not for the identity of the author and not for other behavior (comments, diaries, ratings) by the author.

  •  Here's a question: (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Anthony de Jesus

    You write that

    Advocating for third parties
    is an HR-able offense.  Today there was a diary lauding Cornel West and Ralph Nader for promoting a primary candidate against President Obama in 2012.  19 people HR'd the diary, for this reason.  A diarist complained that this was HR abuse calling this
    the same old obnoxious behavior that leads to pie wars.   This past week has been wonderful.  I hate to see it end.
    which in turn led to a back-and-forth about who was right.

    Although I thought the diary was HR-able, I didn't add a donut, because I wasn't sure.  Can you comment?

    Sometimes I wonder whether the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on or by imbeciles who really mean it. --Mark Twain

    by SottoVoce on Wed Sep 21, 2011 at 08:39:05 PM PDT

    •  Kos has said it is a bannable offense (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      FrugalGranny, blueoasis

      I think it is an open question as to whether or not it should be HRed or if it should be left to kos to discern.  I welcome thoughts on that idea.  My inclination is that HRs serve to flag questionable comments that should be bannable if they are part of a pattern of behavior.  If it's just one comment, then getting some HRs isn't going to hurt anyone.  If it is part of a pattern, then the pattern will get attention sooner.  I'll also point out thata comment that seemed to be more clearly advocacy of a third party didn't get any HRs despite several comments in the levels beneath it.

      I also advocate declining to HR if there is any doubt in favor of trying to communicate.  If you're not sure, don't do donuts.  I believe in engagement to discern how the diarist feels.  A true third-party advocate will probably betray that bias and make comments that are more obviously HRable.

      Of course, kos has explicitly said that advocating primaries is okay.  It should also be permissible to advocate for ideas that are stupid or that lead to a difference of opinion on whether or not it is good for the Democratic Party.  My non-binding personal opinion is that you should hesitate to HR what you can ascribe to stupidity.

    •  How is advocating a challenge in a (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      LABobsterofAnaheim, Dallasdoc

      Democratic Primary at all "advocating for third parties"?  I'll find it and uprate.

      In my avatar, the blue bars show how many want Reps who COMPROMISE; the aqua bars show who wants Reps who STAND FAST no matter what. (Left=Overall; Center=Democrats; Right=Republicans.) And there's the problem!

      by Seneca Doane on Thu Sep 22, 2011 at 05:56:22 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  You should probably address "Hide on Sight" (5+ / 0-)

    It's a very rare situation, but you do see it referenced on occasion.

  •  Also, another verison of advocating for third (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    blueoasis, Anthony de Jesus

    parties is no. 1 donuting a comment on behalfof no. 2 because no. 2 has run out of donuts or is NR, I would think. There's a reason that TUs get only five a day, and this is an end run around that and should be considered as a possible abuse of HR officially..  

    Another matter is those who use the ancient number system while NR'd, or in support of those NR'd. I hope this will also be considered.

    A third question has to do with lies and debunked memes or argument lines.  In some diaries and issues, the beliefs of  groups of more than one are treated as truth, and  statements arguing with those beliefs are treated as lies, or as debunked stuff because one group believes they have done this although another group may never have agreed, and HR'd accordingly. Among some factions in some threads, there are groups who will define something as untrue or debunked, and HR  or otherwise do what nominally seems to comply with a rule or a ruling, whether or not it does but appearing at least to comply with the form of rules but without substance. This is especially tricky with not well publicized MB rulings, which acquire whole realms of penumbral interpretation, donuts to follow.  

    Although in conversation in dining rooms the standard is clear, personal attacks  on diarists or commenters may have to be clarified. You are an idiot, you are naive, you are a liar, you are a troll, you left your brains at home, your mind is on another planet, and the like, although I admit these are sort of dishwater to more legendary insults. What will be the standard for naughty personal insults?

    I hope that these issues will be considered.

    •  I've been thinking about it (0+ / 0-)

      1) I do sometimes wish that soliciting HRs would be a HRable offense.  Let people decide on their own.  It may be difficult or impossible to stop people from doing that off-site, but at least don't let them fill up the comments with pleas for donuts.

      2) By ancient number system, do you mean people who reply with 4 or 0 in a comment?  I think that's a temporary problem.  kos has indicated that he's been leaning towards a separate thumbs up/thumbs down option of some sort while allowing people to flag a comment.  The indicated punishment for inappropriate flagging seems to be loss of flagging abilities, so people should still be able to show approval or disapproval.  I'm inclined to wait and see unless people think it is a pressing need that needs to be addressed.

      3) Conspiracy theories and other debunked lines of questioning have been bannable offenses.  Flagging those does seem appropriate.  I suspect that requires a whole other sub-FAQ on what are banned topics and why they are banned.

      4) There is no obligation to HR things that are HRable, but you shouldn't uprate things that are.  I think the standard for unacceptably naughty personal insults will end up being determined by the community, for better or worse.  There is legitimate concern that this will lead to minority groups and opinions being punished disproportionately.  I suspect kos will want to see how the new system works, then tweak the rules as he sees fit.  I will be amused to see his reaction if there is a campaign to have "dickish" treated as an unacceptable sexist comment.

  •  The essential problem, imo, are the "-isms"... (0+ / 0-)

    The provision in an FAQ of guidelines for what constitutes an "-ism" or "-phobia" is a laudable and perhaps necessary goal, though I myself see it as a Sisyphean task. There are minimalist and maximalist positions, argued from varied perspectives, but in many ways it comes down to kos' (and others') statements akin to "it's like pornography; I recognize it when I see it." Optimistically, the new moderation system (flag for discussion) would create a forum where those comments falling into a "grey area" could be addressed reasonably, with adjudicated outcomes creating a kind of "common law." Pessimistically, the new moderation system strikes me as being potentially as susceptible to 1) capriciousness and 2) censorious gamesmanship as the current HR system.

    Real stupidity beats artificial intelligence every time. (Terry Pratchett)

    by angry marmot on Thu Sep 22, 2011 at 05:27:44 AM PDT

  •  Hr for disagreement (0+ / 0-)

    is the most common error and more recently for perceived racist phrases.

    ❧ to thine own self be true ❧

    by Agathena on Thu Sep 22, 2011 at 11:07:27 AM PDT

  •  The only small nit I would pick is that adult (0+ / 0-)

    language is just fine in titles; what's forbidden is scatological or obscene language. An adult with a robust vocabulary doesn't need that in either the title or text.

    Otherwise, great job - thanks for taking this on.

    Is it true? Is it kind? Is it necessary? . . . and respect the dignity of every human being.

    by Wee Mama on Fri Sep 23, 2011 at 01:12:48 PM PDT

  •  Thank-you (0+ / 0-)

    As someone new here this really helped answer alot of my questions and you did so in a way that didn't make me feel like a moron...thanks :)

    “Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and consciencious stupidity.” ~Martin Luther King, Jr.

    by JMoore on Fri Sep 23, 2011 at 06:05:14 PM PDT

  •  As a Work In Progress this is excellent. (0+ / 0-)

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