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As demonstrated by hundreds of comments, it would appear that I am the object of no small amount of upset by some readers of the Daily Kos.

Am I surprised? No. My style of direct speaking, and commitment to always voice truth to power may not be everyone's cup of tea. That is okay.

As folks who have followed me over the last few years know, I can go all out and cut a damn good promo if need be; I also can move silently and do work with a scalpel; And at times I choose to use a garrote to ether my opponents.

In all, styles make fights and I try to use the right tool from the tool box in order to get the job done.

A few months back, some of my folks online encouraged me to check out Daily Kos and its fracas over race and blogging while black. I received emails from allies and friends asking about my thoughts on the matter, and if I were going to get involved. I'm not 'fam so I initially demurred. But, what I saw while lurking was enough to encourage me to move forward. I chose my time wisely and decided to make some small forays, to do some basic recon in order to get the lay of the land.

As Brother King and the other warriors in our glorious black freedom struggle realized, sometimes you have to shake the bushes to get the snakes out. At other times, you need to lay an ambush to get a sense of how your enemy will react.

I have long been a student of Whiteness. I am particularly interested in racism--and the many manifestations of white privilege--as performed by white liberals.

The latter are particularly fascinating on these matters because in our contemporary political imagination "racism" is something those "other people" do. White supremacy and racism are albatrosses and weights that hang from the necks of the Right, the false white populists, the Tea Party GOP and Birthers, racial reactionaries, and the bomb throwers and bigots like Buchanan, Limbaugh, Coulter, and Beck.

There sins are not "our" sins, in fact, a belief in anti-racism, and the merits of "multiculturalism," are the distinguishing marks of the contemporary left and progressives in the Age of Obama.

I knew what I would find here at Daily Kos. There would be some allies and perhaps even some friends. There would be those put off and afraid. Some would come closer and others would run away. That is the way of the world; Its diversity is a good thing.

I also knew that I would encounter white privilege, glaring examples in fact, that would further the thesis that Whiteness does real work in our society as it impacts all folks across the color line.  

I always try to pass along what I have learned on my journeys to others. Before I get banned by cowardly souls, here is a primer, a set of helpful hints for black folks (and other fellow travelers), who may endeavor to write about race, politics, culture, and power here at the Daily Kos.

Please do amend it as necessary.  

10 Tips for Blogging While Black on the Daily Kos

1. Every community has certain rules. The rule here is to be "respectful." Respect can also mean conforming, knowing your place, not rocking the boat, and staying on the approved script. Respect is also about power: who wields it; who makes the rules; who gets to decide what behavior is "inappropriate." In majority white spaces, those decisions and rules are always racialized. You probably learned those unspoken rules and life lessons as your guide for life, from a parent, elder, or other sage. Remember, those rules still apply online. Do update your Negro Motorist Green Book with entries about blogging while black at the Daily Kos.

2. Whiteness is ultimately about the maintenance of white privilege. White privilege can be understood in material, economic, legal, social, and political terms. The most basic manifestation of white privilege is the freedom and ability to determine how and when you will be uncomfortable, and under what circumstances. Thus, do not engage in any talk about race, white supremacy, identity politics, or other matters that may make certain folks "uncomfortable," "upset," "feel dirty," or "angry."

3. Your intellectual life, creative voice, and right to speak are subject to the demands of the chorus. You must get permission to speak. You must live for the approval of the (white) Kossacks. If you do not, then you will be marginalized, confronted, and told that your voice is not welcome.

4. To the above: remember that you as the Other are the perpetual teacher. Never forget that special burden. And yes, it is hard to be the teacher when your students will feign knowing more about these matters of life experience, history, and power than you do. Never forget, you are the little man behind the stove--even when others want to argue for an equivalence of insight and experience.

5. For blacks to criticize other black folks for their tom foolery, race minstrel shtick, or hostility to the empowerment of people of color, is verboten. You must speak in an approved tone that does not offend the sensibilities of white folks who may want to participate in the conversation. We live in the age of the black superpublic where there are no more "black spaces" for private talk. Moreover, the white gaze is real; never forget that your conversation and critique should always allow a space for Whiteness to participate. To do any less is both rude and uncivilized.

6. Race is always secondary to class. In fact, if we just stopped talking about all of this race stuff then our problems would be solved. Abandon intersectionality. Remember, it is always class--and you should forget that class location is a function of this country's racial hierarchy. Really, I mean it. Simply forget those inconvenient facts. Delete them now. Your life will be a lot easier.

7. The Right is lampooned and mocked for its "echo chamber" memes and tendency towards "epistemic closure." The Left has its problems in that regard as well. Be prepared.

The Freepers, Townhall, and Fox News types have "Socialist," "libtard" and "class warfare" as their Orwellian newspeak PC working conversation shutdown vocabulary. As an equivalent, many Kossacks throw about "racism" and "sexism" to marginalize those with who they disagree. Like their peers on the Right, most cannot define these terms. They are simply weapons of the lazy and the anti-intellectual. Avoid the fire, smoke, and distraction of those slow moving bludgeons by asking for a definition: most will disengage because they have none to offer.

8. The ban hammer and Daily Kos' "hide rating" is a type of cyberbullying and intimidation. Some rules appear "race neutral." In practice, we know that they are not. Tread carefully. Whiteness is a lie. Because it is a lie, Whiteness is existentially dependent on hiding the truth. The "HR" is a tool to that end.  

9. There is frontstage racism and backstage racism. Frontstage racism is that which occurs in public. Backstage racism occurs in private, and in (often) all white spaces where people feel comfortable enough to let their guard down. Because racism has evolved over time, frontstage racism is heavily policed and a source of shame when the perpetrator is called out. Backstage racism continues on in the Age of Obama.

Because of their different political personality types, white liberals and white conservatives manifest racism and racial resentment in divergent, if not complementary ways. What they have in common is a type of racial heliocentrism, what we call "the white racial frame" which puts Whiteness at the center of all things. Conservatives are more honest about this fact. Liberals and white progressives are also paid the psychic wages of Whiteness, but they cash the check while feeling either very great guilty or grossly magnanimous.

10. Take the words of the Kossacks seriously for what they reveal about white privilege and liberal/left/progressive politics is invaluable. For example, on my post regarding Herman Cain's noxious race politics, the commenter Poetic Mind wrote that:

...a selection of uprates...well, my hr stands,I am still unconvinced:  the presentation and the racialist undertones still make this post inappropriate for a progressive blog...sure, I am not African American, I may not be able to follow your perspective as an African American, but Dailykos has community standards and I still feel, you haven't met them...but in time with more posts you will probably understand what a progressive blog is really about... progressiveness is looking into the future, not getting hung up by the past!

Progressives are "race neutral." In fact, you need to leave the richness of your humanity and life experiences out of the conversation. Your Blues Sensibility and four centuries of experience in the New World, the Black Atlantic, and as the co-founders of this Republic, ought to be ignored. You are quintessentially American, but that essence is inconvenient. It may make some white folks uncomfortable: we are the envy of the world; but no one really wants to be black.

Ultimately, black folks are in need of a good lecture about the real meaning of "progressive" struggle.

We may have led the fight to improve American democracy and carried whole peoples and their struggles on our backs, but now we have sit at the knee of "the real progressives" and take our moment of instruction. Like John Lewis learned at an Occupy Wall Street protest, you best know your place and always ask for permission to participate.

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Comment Preferences

  •  Is this your "GBCW" diary? (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    khereva, debedb, cybrestrike

    Or are you seriously hoping to stick around after throwing all of these bombs?

    "The two pioneering forces of modern sensibility are Jewish moral seriousness and homosexual aestheticism and irony." Susan Sontag

    by Shane Hensinger on Tue Nov 08, 2011 at 06:26:14 PM PST

  •  This is dead on (25+ / 0-)
    5. For blacks to criticize other black folks for their tom foolery, race minstrel shtick, or hostility to the empowerment of people of color, is verboten. You must speak in an approved tone that does not offend the sensibilities of white folks who may want to participate in the conversation. We live in the age of the black superpublic where there are no more "black spaces" for private talk. Be mindful to choose your words carefully lest some white folks be offended. Moreover, the white gaze is real; never forget that your conversation and critique should always allow a space for Whiteness to participate. To do any less is both rude and uncivilized.

    Thank you for articulating this to others. I don't know that this will be well-received, but it's painfully true, and I would hope that it could be heard.

  •  Thanks teacher. (12+ / 0-)

    Always interesting to watch a class room in action. Though one small correction is in order, I think

    8. The ban hammer and Daily Kos' "hide rating" is a type of cyberbullying and intimidation. Some rules appear "race neutral." In practice, we know that they are not. Tread carefully. Whiteness is a lie. Because it is a lie, Whiteness is existentially dependent on hiding the truth. The "HR" is a tool to that end.

    Yes, the HR and the banhammer can be abused. There is no doubt about that. But they are part of the community moderation. At least for now. A less confrontational system is being developed. But we don't want a "wild wild west" blog where anything goes. What should happen when a conservative drops a load of homophobia into a diary? There needs to be a way to remove it short of having the diary deleted. Right now that way is the HR system.

    GOP 2012 -- Austerity is just around the corner!

    by ontheleftcoast on Tue Nov 08, 2011 at 06:30:52 PM PST

  •  I thought your diary yesterday was great (18+ / 0-)

    chauncey. I was saddened by the knee jerk reaction to the "cornbread" in the title (which, mind you, Cain CHOSE as his own secret service name). You'll encounter this a lot on kos...people who 1) don't bother reading the actual text of your diary and instead react to the title they read and 2) white people who think they know more about racism in America than black people.

    keep writing chauncey. You are intelligent and truthful. You have made some mistakes (I honestly didn't like your diary about that teenage girl, but thats a topic for another day) but you are smart as a damn whip. It would be a shame to lose your voice.

    "The clown car always has room for one more" - a hilarious kossack

    by rexymeteorite on Tue Nov 08, 2011 at 06:34:44 PM PST

  •  You know what I hate (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    DemocraticLuntz, BradyB, khereva, FG

    I hate people who wrap themselves in just language, just causes, and such to defend themselves for what is demonstrably wrong.

    You write some that I good, some that is tedious, some that is wrong, and a t least one piece that is completely offensive.  The common denominator is that you defend all that you do with the same "hard truths" line.  Race is important, and much of what you write about is fair, but wrapping yourself in the "angry black man" cape in regard to every single smart, stupid and offensive thing you say is simply annoying.  It cheapens the very things you, and many others more eloquent than you, are fighting for.

    I am on an IPad.  So I cannot provide a link.  But the key point is that this diarist used this exact same rhetoric to defend a diary named a 14 year old girl for getting filmed giving another boy a blow job, then lectured her about.  It was disgusting, and yet he used the same "hard truths" and speaking as a black man type of bullshit used in this diary.

    Your words and actions cheapen the very truths you are fighting for, by linking the just to the disgusting and unjust words you have written.

    You should be ashamed.

    "Empty vessels make the loudest sound, they have the least wit and are the greatest blabbers" Plato

    by Empty Vessel on Tue Nov 08, 2011 at 06:36:48 PM PST

    •  we angry black men (6+ / 0-)

      you are teaching. thanks again.

      i am not angry. are all black men angry who say things you don't like.

      my style is directness. if i were angry you would know it.

      and also, shoudn't folks be angry about social inequality and its related evils?

      liberals are so afraid of those angry blacks--just like conservatives.

      you are so fixated on something from weeks ago I do have to ask about your fixation, fascination, and obsession.

      why so dedicated? a personal connection perhaps?

      •  My fixation is simple (4+ / 0-)

        I fight for the disenfranchised, and I have a hard time imagining a more disenfranchised person than the 14 year old girl that you named and held up for ridicule.

        "Empty vessels make the loudest sound, they have the least wit and are the greatest blabbers" Plato

        by Empty Vessel on Tue Nov 08, 2011 at 06:43:00 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  go save souls then (6+ / 0-)

          reach out to girls like her and help them make better choices. i didn't ridicule her I gave her the same advice I would give my own daughter.

          use common sense, be mindful of choices, don't trust boys who tell you to fellate them in public in order to win their love, (or any other place for that matter), you know things she should have been told at home, if so, didn't listen to.

          there are lots of Ambers in the world. they need our help.

          you can ride this horse all you want but your amber rose crusade is tiresome. go write your own post on her if you are so inclined, email her, twitter her, form a support group, or what have you.

    •  Taking a stab at 11 (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      mallyroyal, jts327

      11.  Everything you say will be under twice the scrutiny, and every slip-up will never be forgotten.  There are no bad days for those nobly representing an underprivileged group* on DailyKos.  

      * I am white, and female.  The experience is not the same, and I don't claim it is, but I could, if I wanted, write a parallel version of this.  I happen to also disagree strongly with what the diarist said in that previous discussion, but think that has nothing to do with the excellent points they are making here.  (That may not be the link you were first thinking of, but I'm on an iPad too, and I thought it illustrated that there is a history between you and the diarist.)

      •  < / a > (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        badscience

        And whoops, HTML fail.  Pay no attention to the unclosed tag behind the curtain.  

      •  would apply (4+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Larsstephens, jts327, antimony, Avila

        keep them coming.

      •  If the diarist had ever (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        ehrenfeucht games

        Said he was wrong about that diary, I would back off.  But he has doubled, tripled and quadrupled down on it.  Seriously, go read it and his responses, them come back and tell me I am wrong.

        "Empty vessels make the loudest sound, they have the least wit and are the greatest blabbers" Plato

        by Empty Vessel on Tue Nov 08, 2011 at 06:51:55 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  and (5+ / 0-)

          I stand by what I said. why does that gall you so. Are you going to show every time I write something to talk about that stuff?

          you need to go process the issue. write a haiku, a poem, a story, write a play.

          you don't know me, will never meet me, and this is all online stuff, let it go. your obsession is odd. really.

          •  You are right, and this will be my last comment (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            ehrenfeucht games

            In any diary of yours.  But in answer to why I have gone over the top in my disgust for you, it really comes down to this.

            You attacked a powerless, weak and humiliated 14 year old girl for your own personal amusement and moral superiority.  And far from being sickened by your actions, you are proud.

            "Empty vessels make the loudest sound, they have the least wit and are the greatest blabbers" Plato

            by Empty Vessel on Tue Nov 08, 2011 at 06:59:56 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  If what he said above is representative (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              mallyroyal, Avila

              of what his position was on that subject, then you are clearly taking his remarks, like WAY out of context.

              Calm down.  You seem to be overreacting needlessly here.

              "The bottom line is, we've got to wake up. We can't allow our disappointment in Obama to lull us into allowing a truly dangerous strain of conservative philosophy to gain any more traction than it already has." --ObamOcala 4/5/11

              by smoothnmellow on Wed Nov 09, 2011 at 12:03:26 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

          •  That's an interesting comment to make... (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Larsstephens

            ...on the heels of the comment below.

            who decides if I am in the "right" place or not?  you?

            Who decides whether or not the commenter should be here, you?

            "First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win". Mohandas K. Gandhi

            by DaveinBremerton on Tue Nov 08, 2011 at 07:01:21 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  she can do as she wishes (3+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Larsstephens, mallyroyal, Avila

              if he/she wants to talk about this issue forever, and misrepresent what I wrote from her own frame, so be it.

              i am just signaling that it is a dead issue and a bit bizarre. i could post a great recipe for thanksgiving turkey and he/she would show up talking about that post.

              weird is all. obsessive. and as i said, should be processed some way.

              •  I just read that diary. (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Empty Vessel, Sychotic1

                As the father of two daughters, I would respectfully ask you to please edit the title to remove the girl's name from the title.

                "If I can't dance, then I don't want to be in your revolution"--Emma Goldman

                by ehrenfeucht games on Tue Nov 08, 2011 at 09:17:39 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  as the person who wrote the diary (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  mallyroyal, Avila

                  i respectfully decline.

                  i a member of the community to which she belongs i respectfully decline.

                  as someone who breathes air and likes coca cola I respectfully decline.

                  as a Sapporo beer lover I respectfully decline.

                  see where this is going?

                  her name was out there long before. sorry.

                  that is part of the convo her pops should have had with her.

                  •  What did this 14 year old girl ever do to you? (2+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    Empty Vessel, Sychotic1

                    Why does she deserve to be treated this way?

                    Sometimes Daily Kos really disgusts me.

                    And this is one of those times.

                    "If I can't dance, then I don't want to be in your revolution"--Emma Goldman

                    by ehrenfeucht games on Tue Nov 08, 2011 at 09:27:36 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  You know what? I'm a black female (2+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      mallyroyal, Avila

                      and I agree with the remarks he made in THIS diary about that subject.  While I hold with distain the act of filming the act without her consent or knowledge, the whole issue of teenage promiscuity seems to be the point missing here.

                      It seems to have gone over many folks' head.  Like duh people...

                      "The bottom line is, we've got to wake up. We can't allow our disappointment in Obama to lull us into allowing a truly dangerous strain of conservative philosophy to gain any more traction than it already has." --ObamOcala 4/5/11

                      by smoothnmellow on Wed Nov 09, 2011 at 12:09:46 AM PST

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  i am an old white man (0+ / 0-)

                        and father of a white woman, thank you for your comment in defense of the diarist.
                        i wonder at times about the lack of reading comprehension here.

                        ...sin that pays its way can travel freely, and without a passport,whereas Virtue, if a pauper is stopped at all frontiers. from The Sermon, Moby Dick

                        by jts327 on Wed Nov 09, 2011 at 04:53:37 AM PST

                        [ Parent ]

                      •  Teanage promiscuity can be addressed without... (0+ / 0-)

                        ...leaving the girl's name in the title of the diary.

                        I find it quite shocking that a diary written in october could remain on Daily Kos this long with her name still in the title.

                        The diarist is not the only person with the ability to edit that title, and even if the diarist (who is just one of thousands of dKos users here) seems beyond persuasion on that point, the fact that her name remains in the title to this day reflects quite poorly on the administration of Daily Kos.

                        Plent of time has elapsed for the title to have been edited and her name to be removed by Kos himself.

                        "If I can't dance, then I don't want to be in your revolution"--Emma Goldman

                        by ehrenfeucht games on Wed Nov 09, 2011 at 06:37:42 AM PST

                        [ Parent ]

              •  In the "white" frame your past haunts you (0+ / 0-)

                Look at how important one's reputation is in "white" culture. How some people will use your words against you or make ruining your reputation a "blood sport".  

                The proper way forward is to value redemption and to acknowledge that people can change their hearts and attitudes.  We must create space for people to honestly air their experience and concerns to get to that place of redemption. Sometimes that will be "uncomfortable"

                --Mr. President, you have to earn my vote every day. Not take it for granted. --

                by chipoliwog on Wed Nov 09, 2011 at 09:50:44 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

        •  See this is the point. Right here. (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          mallyroyal, jts327, Avila

          Since when does someone have to say they are wrong about their own opinion?  That's the problem.  Just say you strongly disagree with that person's opinion and keep it moving...

          "The bottom line is, we've got to wake up. We can't allow our disappointment in Obama to lull us into allowing a truly dangerous strain of conservative philosophy to gain any more traction than it already has." --ObamOcala 4/5/11

          by smoothnmellow on Wed Nov 09, 2011 at 12:00:53 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

        •  why are you obsessed with this? nt (0+ / 0-)

          ...sin that pays its way can travel freely, and without a passport,whereas Virtue, if a pauper is stopped at all frontiers. from The Sermon, Moby Dick

          by jts327 on Wed Nov 09, 2011 at 04:49:48 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

    •  So, anyway, I had no idea what to expect, but (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      mallyroyal

      you really motivated me to find and read the ostensibly universally offensive piece. Maybe it's one of those things where "you really had to have been there", but I came away unmoved in either direction.

      Society, sickeningly, has had a propensity for creating a mind set in teenage girls that tends to give them a self image that I have labeled as being a "meathunk". And lots of adult women, for whatever reason, don't want to tackle that head on, and lots of adult men, again for various (but, to me, very transparent) reasons also don't want to.

      In my own somewhat similar musings on the subject, I think that I wrote clearly more skillfully and intelligently than did Mr. De Vega. On the other hand, I take nothing away from the fact that he was willing to flop this ugly sucker right out there on the table for the whole world to look at. (And, by the way, I wrote mine a few years back, and I don't see things as having gotten any better in the interim.)

      There can be no protection locally if we're content to ignore the fact that there are no controls globally.

      by oldpotsmuggler on Tue Nov 08, 2011 at 07:58:46 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  How the hell would anyone be able to (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    khereva, pgm 01

    tell the color of your skin from yesterday's diary?

  •  So you brought your tool kit (5+ / 0-)

    scalpel, garrote... What else? A knife and a gun?

    Lay it out on the table. Strip down to your undershirt. Crack your knuckles, flex your muscles. It seems to be all about intimidation.

    Are you sure you're in the right place?

    I don't want a piece of you.

    I, for one, don't feel very powerful, just one of the drones in this hive.

    Before you start busting up the furniture and some heads I want to know "Do we have anything in common? Do we have a bigger fight that we can join in together? That's about all I'd want to roll up my sleeves for.

    •  turn of phrase (5+ / 0-)

      enjoy it.

      what is the wrong place? explain? does that not signal to my points above?

      who decides if I am in the "right" place or not?

      you?

      •  Not at all (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        msmacgyver, Sychotic1

        I didn't say you were in the wrong place. I tipped and recced the diary.

        I asked you to decide. It is up to you.

        I don't enjoy the turn of phrase, I'm not here for a fight unless it is against something opposing the interests of the larger community.

        You've made the point that we shouldn't be smug. We should be more self aware. Fair enough. I am not here to be comfortable.

        I think Denise Oliver Velez has the best tag line:

        "If you're in a coalition and you're comfortable, you know it's not a broad enough coalition" Bernice Johnson Reagon

        Do you imagine you're going to be kicking some dirty fucking hippies this evening? It won't be much of a friendly reception.

        And it is beyond me to think how projecting as you do is going to help the dialog. We do desperately need dialog, a conversation, not a shouting match. Otherwise I don't think any hearts will be touched or minds will be changed.

        •  Well, it got you to post in here not didn't it? (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Avila

          You read it enough to post an opinion, didn't you.

          Nuff said.

          "The bottom line is, we've got to wake up. We can't allow our disappointment in Obama to lull us into allowing a truly dangerous strain of conservative philosophy to gain any more traction than it already has." --ObamOcala 4/5/11

          by smoothnmellow on Wed Nov 09, 2011 at 12:13:04 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

  •  My opinion of you has nothing to w/ black or white (8+ / 0-)

    I tend to ignore you because it seems that your top priority is seeking attention.   "Look at me!  Look at me!" is often the quickest and easiest way to turn-away those who otherwise agree with your observations/thoughts/opinions.

    Nothing personal, I just don't have time for grandstanding.  There are plenty of equally compelling arguments and diarists out there without the ego.

    Take care,
    KD

    •  That's all it is. Chauncey is an attention hog. (0+ / 0-)

      I guess there are worse things, but he uses some pretty obnoxious strategies.

      But nobody's buying flowers from the flower lady.

      by Rich in PA on Tue Nov 08, 2011 at 07:45:40 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  you do nothing (5+ / 0-)

        but name call. meet me on my own terms. engage, answer a question. but you prove again the points i made in the post above.

        how can someone "hog" an online spot. are you upset that you are not getting shine or something? the complaint is funny to me as no one forces you to comment.

        •  Seems that way to me too (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          mallyroyal

          Just reading a couple of your diaries I noticed the persistent personal attacks on you also. Yesterday I dropped an HR in one case.

          My mojo went from 4 to 2 from yesterday to today. What caused it? I dropped one HR on Rich for name-calling, uprated your tip jar, and recommended your diary. That wasn't my only activity but I don't recall anything else I did controversial yesterday that would cause my Trusted User status to be removed.

          Maybe that wasn't it but so far I've been given no other explanation. As AAMOM says elsewhere in the comments ... "heaven god, don't click that HR button." She's right. That's the last one I'll ever use.

          It's great that you are ignoring the attacks and continuing to write. Clearly many here believe what you are writing about race is accurate and important. I hope you continue to be given the chance to write here at Daily Kos but you WILL BE hounded every time you write.

      •  So what? (5+ / 0-)

        A number of the top rec'd list diarists are attention hogs, so what's new?  

        It's just that many like to give them the attention.

        "The bottom line is, we've got to wake up. We can't allow our disappointment in Obama to lull us into allowing a truly dangerous strain of conservative philosophy to gain any more traction than it already has." --ObamOcala 4/5/11

        by smoothnmellow on Wed Nov 09, 2011 at 12:15:42 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

    •  You aren't doing a good job ignoring. (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      mallyroyal, jts327, Avila

      Because you posted in here.

      "The bottom line is, we've got to wake up. We can't allow our disappointment in Obama to lull us into allowing a truly dangerous strain of conservative philosophy to gain any more traction than it already has." --ObamOcala 4/5/11

      by smoothnmellow on Wed Nov 09, 2011 at 12:13:53 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  I hate that this is a diary that needs (8+ / 0-)

    to be written.

    Thank you for writing it.

    T&R'd

    Nobody is normal because everyone is different- my eight year old daughter

    by left rev on Tue Nov 08, 2011 at 07:04:32 PM PST

  •  . (5+ / 0-)

    We are called to speak for the weak, for the voiceless, for victims of our nation and for those it calls enemy.... --ML King "Beyond Vietnam"

    by Gooserock on Tue Nov 08, 2011 at 07:05:44 PM PST

  •  But now chauncey (3+ / 0-)

    I do notice that you use the word "negritude" a lot, in a very different sense from what that actually is...and, actually, for those of us who are respectable negroes (or those like myself who can pass for being a respectable negro), Herman Cain brings out every bit of negritude that we have...and not in a good way..

    I mean, I literally cringe when I see him on TV being a hot mess.

    and...maybe you need to make some sort of amends for that other diary...

  •  Thanks for this. (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Larsstephens, kaliope, mallyroyal, Avila

    This moment of reality-checking is welcome, especially for those of us who were born into white privilege and too often have difficulty recognizing its pervasive influence.  I feel like it's even more pernicious on the left simply because many, many white liberals are convinced we've entered a post-racial paradigm (but only us)--and we clearly haven't in this country or any other.  Thank you for raising intersectionality as well, because your critique could go much further if you consider other categories (gender, sexuality, etc) of normativity and privilege.  The call to vigilance must be constant if justice be the goal.

  •  This (6+ / 0-)
    Because of their different political personality types, white liberals and white conservatives manifest racism and racial resentment in divergent, if not complementary ways. What they have in common is a type of racial heliocentrism, what we call "the white racial frame" which puts Whiteness at the center of all things. Conservatives are more honest about this fact. Liberals and white progressives are also paid the psychic wages of Whiteness, but they cash the check while feeling either very great guilty or grossly magnanimous.

    As I said over at Black Kos, a minstrel show is for white pleasure and for a white audience (so much for Cain trying to get black support on that count.) Only happy darkies allowed.
    White liberals, consciously or unconsciously, know a minstrel show when they see it.

    But black folks have a bit of a gaze as well, and you (and the rest of we respectable and happy negroes) pretty much threw it in their face.

    With a gaze of our own.

  •  What Up, WARN! (10+ / 0-)

    Been checking you out the last day or two over here at DK, ChaunceyDeVega.

    This is Brown Man Thinking Hard from your blogroll, telling a brother to keep telling it the way you see it, since I assume you are the owner of your own keyboard.

    I'm the only black blogger over at Big Think, so I know what you mean when you talk about mofos who act like they are renting you the air you breathe when you describe the world from a perspective they do not recognize or want to deem authentic.

    Talking about race can be uncomfortable. And yet in order to get to the promised land of some sort of racial comity that allows us to respect our differences as we revere the things we have in common, you have to go from merely talking about the boundaries and strictures of race in America to truth telling about our conscious and subconscious attitudes towards those outside of our racial tribe.

    Truth telling, as the South Africans found out after apartheid, is very, very hard.

    This conversation brings to mind something Ronald Laird said that I used in an article I wrote a while back:

      "Despite the sincere optimism many White people think post-racial means that when we work together to solve some of societies daunting problems we no longer need to speak explicitly about race…

        …whereas to many Black people post-racial means we can speak more openly about race and how we can use our experiences and narratives to turn around many of the problems in our communities."

        Ronald Laird

    From "Why Post-Racial is Post-Rational"

    If nothing else, Chauncey, you've cut down on at least 5% of the navel gazing that goes on around here.

  •  I'm still learning (10+ / 0-)

    And I hope I continue to learn.

    It struck me that many Whites are worried that they will someday be a minority in this country, and they find that to be a problem.

    Why?

    Who says they should be a majority? (And I am a White woman, myself.)

    Seriously - who says??

    I live in a neighborhood that is mostly Hispanic. Here, I am the minority. And I sometimes hear Whites in this neighborhood bemoaning that fact. As if all land in this country, all property, all cities, all neighborhoods should be White.

    White Privilege is REAL. And all too often we don't realize the crap that resides in our own heads.

    A White Supreme Court... nobody seems to have a problem with being represented by nine White Christian men. Because, you know, they're the "default" and can represent all Americans.

    But a "wise Latina"? I heard crap about how she would be focused on women's issues, or Hispanic issues, blah blah blah and so on. So that means that the previous Justices only represented the interests of White Christian men? Setting aside the fact that yeah, they did pretty much... everyone seems to think that A. They can represent everyone or B. That they SHOULDN'T represent everyone. Because, you know, White peoples' interests should be paramount, for some reason.

    It's there. It is every-freaking-where. And it will be until we can get past the idea that "good neighborhoods" are White ones, and Black neighborhoods are the "bad" ones. Or that living in a Hispanic neighborhood, as I do, is a "bad thing". It isn't.

    We have a ton of work yet to do, and yes, that includes liberals (or progressives, or whatever you call yourself).

    Being on the left doesn't mean you're not racist. It doesn't mean you're open-minded. It doesn't mean you're better than anyone else.

    What it means, if you ask me, is that we should WANT TO BE BETTER. We should want to be free from racism. We should be willing to stare it in the face, and chase it from our minds and our lives.

    But being on the left doesn't make you a better person automatically. It should, however, mean that you're willing to work to GET THERE.

    "We have only the moral ground we actually inhabit, not the moral ground we claim." - It Really Is That Important

    by Diogenes2008 on Tue Nov 08, 2011 at 08:06:46 PM PST

  •  I'm sorry I read this diary (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    jabney

    I feel like I have intruded and am not welcome. I guess I won't read any more of your writing.

  •  My comment requires facebook to make a point (8+ / 0-)

    http://www.facebook.com/...

    Follow the link if you can before I add my burden to a heavy topic.

    As an old man I have no problem seeing the beautiful young woman or the handsome young man in the souls of those similarly afflicted by age.

    I can't assume that I have the same ability to perceive the soul of those with a different shade of skin. I've never been there.

    Can we assume, at the very least, some degree of empathy?
     

    Others have simply gotten old. I prefer to think I've been tempered by time.

    by Just Bob on Tue Nov 08, 2011 at 08:15:50 PM PST

  •  I was surprised by your definition of "respect". (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    jabney, Odysseus, cybrestrike, Sychotic1

    To me, respecting someone means treating them the way you would want to be treated. I try to respect everyone, until they give me a good reason not to. I don't see it as "conforming" or involving power. The people whom I respect have earned it by their actions, it has nothing to do with knowing your place.

    •  do you (5+ / 0-)

      get that maybe we don't want to be respected in the same way you do?

      that these universal definitions can do the work of white supremacy, sexism, classism, and other types of power?

      respect and rules of comportment are all about power because they are socially constructed.

      it was an act of respect for black people to get off the sidewalk when whites approached, it is an act of respect for our gay and lesbian brothers and sisters to not show affection to each other in public, etc. etc. etc.

      get the point?

      sort of reminds me when some white folks say "everybody loves blondes, they are beautiful!"

      no we don't.

      •  Rules and respect are different. (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Odysseus

        I agree that rules are often all about power. And I find the rules that forced black people to move off the sidewalk or that condemn gays from showing affection to be abhorrent.
        But respect is different. It has to be given, it can't be demanded.
        When black people moved off the sidewalk when whites approached they were following rules. Stupid rules. But that doesn't mean they were respecting those white folks. You cannot be forced to respect someone, you either do or you don't.
        I think the emphasis on "respect" here at Kos is more about treating people fairly than about conforming.  
        I do agree with you that rules can be used to oppress but I guess I also feel that some rules are necessary here to make it a place where people feel safe. I am sorry if you feel that the rules work against you. You write very well and have an interesting point of view.

        •  reflect (4+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Larsstephens, kaliope, mallyroyal, Avila

          on this part here in regards to power and intent:

          I think the emphasis on "respect" here at Kos is more about treating people fairly than about conforming.  

          who decides? who gets bullied? how does the group enforce certain norms? what "uncomfortable" topics--for who I may ask?--get shouted down?

          whiteness and power deep; they are also invisible for those who wield it--thus its transhistorical permanency.

        •  The rules (0+ / 0-)

          encode and enforce respect as unilaterally defined and unilaterally extended... in the southern virginia of my father's childhood, for a black person to not yield the sidewalk to whites was a violation of the rules and transgression of the rules was deemed disrespect. An expectation of equality was deemed disrepect. To withhold overt submission was deemed disrespect. The issue was never the rules; it was always about respect and to disrespect white people was punishable by death.

          There was no reciprocation, however; the closest thing to respect any black person could expect was not to be paid a visit from the Klan or the local White Citizen's Council. The people who set the rules made sure the rules only applied in one direction.

          Respect can be demanded and it can be coerced if the penalties for resistance are severe enough; if that were not the case there would have been no Jim Crow...

          Fear doesn't just breed incomprehension. It also breeds a spiteful, resentful hate of anyone and everyone who is in any way different from you.

          by awesumtenor on Wed Nov 09, 2011 at 02:53:07 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

  •  I missed the previous diary before (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    kaliope, mallyroyal

    and just read it. I thought it was interesting analysis, and a reasonable point for discussion. I was surprised (gobsmacked?) at the vitriol in some comments (incl. calls for banning!?) and the hide rating and scattered misunderstandings.

    I'm a white woman living in one of the whitest states in the nation, and grew up with the attendant privilege of which I was unaware for years (though the place I grew up was more diverse than here).

    I consider myself still learning about the perspectives and histories of people who are not like me, especially those who are minorities in this country. It involves a lot of listening. I don't always see the racial frames (which exist whether I see them or not). It's a big world out there, with a lot of experiences very different from mine.

    The Cain diary didn't bother me because it made me think and opened some things up for me that I hadn't noticed, but that make sense to me once pointed out.  (hey, I'm not completely unaware of racial history and framing in the US!) This diary in light of the comments on the Cain diary does not surprise me, and looking at that discussion brought this diary into focus for me.

    Sure, it makes me feel uncomfortable. I don't like that people coming here feel so much suffocating constraint and misunderstanding here and elsewhere in expressing their experience, and I'm not sure what the solution is. Is it too harsh? Maybe not. I honestly don't know. But it's something that I've seen expressed in other contexts, and the fact that this sort of thing is a problem on the left for a lot of people naturally bothers me, but it's valuable to me to at least be aware of the problem.

    I don't know what the answer is. but I'm willing to listen, and think about it. It's good to step out of my own shoes from time to time.

    48forEastAfrica - Donate to Oxfam If you can't feed a hundred people, then just feed one. - Mother Teresa

    by wasatch on Tue Nov 08, 2011 at 08:48:36 PM PST

    •  I didn't read that diary. (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      mallyroyal, jts327, Avila

      I just heard about it tonight and I didn't need to go in there to see the usual suspects with their bullying tactics they have used on those who they have succeeded in getting banned...

      Same ole', same ole...

      "The bottom line is, we've got to wake up. We can't allow our disappointment in Obama to lull us into allowing a truly dangerous strain of conservative philosophy to gain any more traction than it already has." --ObamOcala 4/5/11

      by smoothnmellow on Wed Nov 09, 2011 at 12:24:01 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  Well, there is a first time for everything... (0+ / 0-)

    ...and today was the first time that got quoted in another post...

    Two observations:

    1.  Your self awareness in terms of "color" runs deep...
    2.  Unfortunately it runs so deep that you fail to find an ideological meeting point with others beyond the issue of color and choose to instead be divisive...

    If this is your method of engagement, so be it...
    ...however, it doesn't change my initial argument from that post: there is a fine line between the racialism you represent and the racism that it can turn into...

    By the way both racialism and racism are often defensive mechanism ... in that way, they are the same.

    GOP = Grossly Ostentatiously Preposterous

    by Poetic Mind on Tue Nov 08, 2011 at 09:55:18 PM PST

    •  damn (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      mallyroyal, Avila

      colored folks being aware of race, how dare they! the nerve!

      how dare I want the fullness of my humanity acknowledged!

      good white father please give me my moment of instruction on what it means to be a progressive. i need to learn!

      did you read anything that I wrote?

      on racism and racialism you prove my points again, how did you become an ideal typical case of liberal white privilege and liberal white racism?

      what was the process?

      please share.

      What fun!

      Own your words. You can reflect and modify them by the way. Do you not see how ugly there are, how the metaphorical scatology of your racism and white supremacy flows off of them as you dare to tell a black person about the meaning of progressive politics?

      We made you. Do you get that?

      •  So this is about ownership? (0+ / 0-)

        Who owns the movement?
        Who is entitled to make the rules?
        Who is the source?

        Those entitlement issues are irrelevant, at least to me...
        If you feel that you own it... fine!

        But understand this:  The working classes of Europe suffered more hardship and disease in the dawn of industrialization than African slaves did in the plantations...
        More suffering than you and I can even imagine!

        There was need for progress then, and that progress has not come to completion, yet...

        So, there is your source of the Progressive movement!

        Suffering!

        GOP = Grossly Ostentatiously Preposterous

        by Poetic Mind on Wed Nov 09, 2011 at 12:02:41 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  wow (6+ / 0-)

          "But understand this:  The working classes of Europe suffered more hardship and disease in the dawn of industrialization than African slaves did in the plantations...
          More suffering than you and I can even imagine!"

          call out the historians!

          you are really showing your behind now.

          do you want to go there? really? all those happy darkies on yee old plantation. seeing and eating watermelon w. their benevolent masters.

          please lets not start talking about the many millions gone in the transatlantic slave trade and the many millions more here in the New World.

          let it out more. you got the sickness, we can work with you. it will be an exorcism.

          •  Oh Jesus... (0+ / 0-)

            I tried to show to you how your ancestors are not the only ones that suffered in history...in other word your ancestry's experience might be unique but is not that different from non-African Americans...
            ... once, you have read more about the squalor of the working class neighborhoods in the early days of industrialization and compare them to plantation life... maybe you'll see the picture...  Your ancestors experienced something different in that they were robbed of their identity...by being nabbed out of their tribal lifes in Africa..

            That's how the African American experience is unique!  

            But in terms of suffering, believe me, the plantations slaves had it much better than the European working classes during the early industrial age...

            GOP = Grossly Ostentatiously Preposterous

            by Poetic Mind on Wed Nov 09, 2011 at 12:30:39 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  again (4+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Historicus, mallyroyal, mrbeen38, Avila

              you assume. do you know who i am? have you even considered i may know more about the very history you talk about?

              there is something very ugly in this type of flattening of history you are trafficking in. moreover, it is very inaccurate.

              you may not realize it but the narrative you are parroting is not too far afield from slavery apologists on stormfront.

              i think you should start with curtin's work on the transatlantic slave trade, add some theodore allen volumes 1 and 2 on the invention of the white race, add in some roediger, ignatiev, and katznelson, some hahn, morgan, jordan, and the book many thousands gone.

              then circle around and read orlando patterson's slavery and social death. capitalism and slavery will also give you a more nuanced analysis of the role of capitalism and Capital in the type of argument you are trying to make.

              you do need to get off that young Spartacist crack rock though. not good for you.

              •  Impressed... if you did in fact read... (0+ / 0-)

                ...all of those...but one book you may still need to read:  Any self-help book on developing emotional maturity also called emotional IQ...that will be really good for you!  (since you were speaking of "young", I think I should add that advise)

                GOP = Grossly Ostentatiously Preposterous

                by Poetic Mind on Wed Nov 09, 2011 at 01:20:04 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  again more white privilege at work (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  mallyroyal, Avila

                  are you in a position to test me?

                  IQ vs. EQ. And your point is.

                  You prove all of what I suggest. I have seen your game before and debated folks in person far sharper on these issues.

                  So tell me are you a Spartacist? Do you hang around on college campuses espousing your reductionist class essentialism to impressionable young minds who don't know any better?

                  I like you. You are fighting way outside of your weight class and trying to keep up. Spirit is noteworthy.

                  Tell me more. As I said, together we will cure you of the sickness that is white supremacy.

                  We can go even more old school and talk about Brother C.L.R. James if you want. Or do some exchange on black Marxism.

                  Whatever will get you off of that class over race crack rock. You be free basing, got to stop!

                   

              •  Great recs! (0+ / 0-)

                For me it's like being back in school to think about Win Jordan's White over Black and Theodore Allen's volumes ... though I'd elevate James's Black Jacobins to first tier "must read" because he was such a powerful and evocative writer and so important in moving (some) historians' understandings beyond sterile numbers.  (I'm less enamored of State Capitalism but that's a matter of taste; it's still important.)  There are a couple there that I don't know, so I'm grateful for the knowledge.

                There was a short film where James actually sat down with E. P. Thompson to talk about race and class in history, in the 1980s sometime, but I haven't seen it yet.  Thompson often struggled with the meaning of race in the way you describe for class-prioritizing white liberal thought, so I think it's time for me to hunt that down.

        •  oh, my goodness (3+ / 0-)

          "The working classes of Europe suffered more hardship and disease in the dawn of industrialization than African slaves did in the plantations..."

          This is a myth happily peddled by the far right in this country, that slavery wasn't really so bad for its time or worse than what Europeans suffered, which they then use to dismiss the ongoing social devastation and institutionalized racism against which African Americans have to fight (or more often blame them for its persistence).  Besides that (and speaking as a historian), it's incorrect both demographically and in terms of human experiences like the dehumanization of chattel slavery that defy quantification.  

    •  Based on your quoted comment (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Avila

      in this diary, I find, in my opinion, that you abused your HR privilege and if I were so incline to read that diary, I would have automatically uprated it for HR abuse.

      Under the 'new rules'.

      "The bottom line is, we've got to wake up. We can't allow our disappointment in Obama to lull us into allowing a truly dangerous strain of conservative philosophy to gain any more traction than it already has." --ObamOcala 4/5/11

      by smoothnmellow on Wed Nov 09, 2011 at 12:26:08 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  Bullshit #1 (0+ / 0-)
    In majority white spaces, those decisions and rules are always racialized.

    Nobody knows what race you are unless you tell them.

    Insightful comments are welcomed regardless of the source.

    Bullshit rants with no possibility of communication get ignored.

    -7.75 -4.67

    "Freedom's just another word for nothing left to lose."

    There are no Christians in foxholes.

    by Odysseus on Tue Nov 08, 2011 at 10:32:35 PM PST

    •  insert (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      mallyroyal, Avila

      finger into mouth an insert vomiting.

      do you really believe what you just wrote

      how privileged of you!

    •  Well then you aren't very perspective. (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      mallyroyal, Avila, blueness

      Because he kinda made it clear in his profile.  That is, if you were so inclined to bother to look, since it seems to be a point with you.

      See how that works?

      "The bottom line is, we've got to wake up. We can't allow our disappointment in Obama to lull us into allowing a truly dangerous strain of conservative philosophy to gain any more traction than it already has." --ObamOcala 4/5/11

      by smoothnmellow on Wed Nov 09, 2011 at 12:27:51 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Why would I be inclined to look? (0+ / 0-)

        Race is not a motivator for me.  You're correct that by ignoring race I'm ignoring many social cues.  But I thought that ignoring those cues was the point and a good thing, since they all seem to be negative.

        -7.75 -4.67

        "Freedom's just another word for nothing left to lose."

        There are no Christians in foxholes.

        by Odysseus on Wed Nov 09, 2011 at 08:31:36 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  the sickness has you (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          mallyroyal, Avila, blueness

          "Race is not a motivator for me."

          Deep statement.

          "But I thought that ignoring those cues was the point and a good thing, since they all seem to be negative."

          Damn. Read that aloud to yourself.

          Conservative colorblind orthodoxy has really infected so many people--it is so deep even those who in theory stand against the Right reproduce by its logic and the logic that permits modern/institutional racism to do so much harm.

          •  Ideas that transcend race are conservative? (0+ / 0-)

            "We hold these truths to be self-evident: that all men are created equal and endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable rights.  Among these are the right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness."

            Governments are enacted among men to secure these rights for all citizens.

            That's the goal.  Tactics are good if they support goals.  I'm not married to any one tactic.

            -7.75 -4.67

            "Freedom's just another word for nothing left to lose."

            There are no Christians in foxholes.

            by Odysseus on Wed Nov 09, 2011 at 09:54:20 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  you keep playing yourself, you know that? (3+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              mallyroyal, Avila, blueness

              do a little work on the framers and how the Constitution is a product of a very narrow conception of personhood and humanity.

              black folks have forced the Constitution to live up to its potential.

              Charles Mills has some great writing on this in his work on race, herrenvolk ideologies, the racial contract, and white supremacy. Check him out.

              the document was not perfect in its conception--far from it.

              do a little more work on race and neoliberalism. in particular just go a basic google search of "colorblind racism."

              you may learn something before its done...obligatory fat albert and the cosby kids reference.

              keep swinging Odysseus, you may hit something more than air soon!

              •  Every picture tells a story and a lie. (0+ / 0-)

                You've told me how my picture lies to you.
                How does your picture lie to me?

                -7.75 -4.67

                "Freedom's just another word for nothing left to lose."

                There are no Christians in foxholes.

                by Odysseus on Wed Nov 09, 2011 at 11:54:49 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

          •  chaunceydevega, this comment is a hard one (5+ / 0-)

            for me to digest or wrap my mind around.  And has brought tears to my heart.

             

            "the sickness has you"
             "Race is not a motivator for me."
            and
            Conservative colorblind orthodoxy has really infected so many people--it is so deep even those who in theory stand against the Right reproduce by its logic and the logic that permits modern/institutional racism to do so much harm

             I am one of a time & place that did not have the more nuanced or knowledge based tools available today.

             In that time and place, making choices, listening hard, seeing hard, standing up+ speaking out in solidarity. Over time these tools becoming less radical; more commonplace.  

            These same tools I taught my children-surrounded them with-along with the voices I listened to in my own time.  And the concept of being "color blind".

            It's all I had; the only things I knew to do to perpetuate the ripple effects.  To be the change no matter how small my actions in the larger scheme of things.

            Now as I  read this comment, I am having an oh shite moment complicated by flashbacks of decades lived from the '50s to now.  

            Assuming my tools had worked.  Minds-eye seeing the change perpetuated as first born toddler calls out & effectively silences grandparents on use of racial epithets.....as one child's teen hero is King the other child's hero is Malcolm, as they both retained & expanded the "color blindness" far into adulthood in both mores and active seeing+listening+doing.

            I see my grandchildren's most recent photos with best friends going trick or treating & my heart smiles knowing that in my own youth in the south and elsewhere, these photos would not be.  These grands who live in a society that neither their parents or grandparents lived in.

            And more.  So much more.

            My little saga comment is no doubt reflective of many of my generation.  Some of us shed blood, some shed lives & blood in ways revolutionary for the times.  Some of us loud; some of us quiet. Keep on no matter the cost.

             Using the tools we had.  Old worn out tools now, I suppose.  Old worn out words replaced by words not easily understood or recognized to some of us elders.

             New words or phrases that can bewilder or with one stroke can negate or muddle one's life long struggle or battle.

            Hard one for sure & brings tears & alarm.  And a need to say I am sorry as tears flow & I look at my now 3 gens & say oh shite.

            •  BEAUTIFUL comment. (4+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              worldlotus, Avila, blueness, Oh Mary Oh

              seriously.  very moving.

              This comment is dedicated to my mellow Adept2U and his Uncle Marcus

              by mallyroyal on Wed Nov 09, 2011 at 11:17:58 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

            •  can you clarify (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              worldlotus, Oh Mary Oh

              is it that we have not come that far? or the realities of how white supremacy still has folks?

              i call Whiteness a sickness for it is. but remember Whiteness does not necessarily have anything to do with all white people.

              •  what I gleaned from that comment was a person (4+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Avila, blueness, worldlotus, Oh Mary Oh

                who was shaken out of their comfort zone, and who was, in real time, processing the revelation that the 'colorblind' thought process may have had some pitfalls.

                but obviously I'll let worldlotus speak for him or herself.

                This comment is dedicated to my mellow Adept2U and his Uncle Marcus

                by mallyroyal on Wed Nov 09, 2011 at 01:23:40 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

              •  Some hours have passed since I wrote my comment (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Oh Mary Oh

                from the heart & tears.  Tears remain.  I still need to process what you have written, the comments I've read thus far & how shaken I am over revelations (that I currently wish had been available to me over 40 years ago, btw)

                I am torn right now.  I am torn between the oh shite feeling of having failed or accidently perpetuated onto 2 gens what I never wanted a part of & the reality of having lived through certain eras & seeing what once was not remotely a possibilty.  Seeing my own children & now my grands working along side, living amongst, playing with, loving & respecting people as human beings without labels- based on mutual respect and honor and commonalities.

                I admit to being raised in a priviledged societal background by educated bigoted white people (one more so than the other).  I admit to never having laid eyes on a black peer until late in high school nor a black neighbor until I lived in Europe in the 70's & then not again until the very late 1980's (despite living all over this country & other countries).  I admit to being a 60's idealists & I admit to surrounding my children to cultures, to the idea(s) of color blindness, racial blindness, class blindness, gender understandings, religious tolerance from the time they were aware enough until this day.  I also taught them to search hard for truths on any given subject, to use critical thinking skills & nourish empathy.

                And I pointed out their own multi level heritage, the cruel injustices & madness done to others over centuries in the name of whatever flavor of the day it was-long before their minds could fully comprehend...

                I did this for many reasons.  There was a lot of societal & human "things" that finally met & turned into fireshitestorms during my own wonder years-especially so around 1969 & intensified.

                 Many "wars" on many fronts seemingly all at once & part of a collective conciousness.

                 A rejection of norms.  An embrace of new vision(s); a veritable frontier of new societal norms...

                 I suppose, we each have our own moments, just as we each have our own experiences, stories, that in aggregate can make the aha moment-the human metamorphosis moment ( In my mind, a work never really complete).

                 Events along the way helped shape the inherent me, but none with the impact of the late 60's to about '75.  Perhaps my own DNA or otherness contributed-who really knows..

                Whatever may be the case, I was not taking any chances on events or DNA or society to teach my children what I had learned & was still learning.

                40ish years seems like a long time. But is it really in respect to evolving societial norms?  I don't know-sometimes I am appalled at what is not and other times I recall the long long long walk of the many soldiers that chose the road less travelled & marvel at what was accomplished in so little time.

                 Whereas I once did the same measurement via peers of all stripes, nowadays I tend to measure progress via the now adult children of those foot soldiers.  Jury is still out but I have had many unique or astonishing revelations just over the past 15 years.  

                Those of us who believed that change started within us were very serious about the gifts we presented towards that enduring change.  Our greatest gift being our children.  Despite our own shortsightedness or flaws, I believe this to have been largely successful.

                As for this:

                is it that we have not come that far?
                or the realities of how white supremacy still has folks?

                My personal take is both yes & no.  I mentioned only my own living decades which now includes two other generations.  Yes, we came very far within specific generational timeframes.  But not so much for other generations that came before.  Clearly not far enough.

                The realities of white supremacy (or any supremacy) goes back centuries & to my mind appears ageless.  Of course it still has hold of folks-any & every where.  The question that remains for me in my twilighting years is why & how.

                Ironic sort of analogy occurred last eve with my #2, thirty something, highly educated child.  Who proclaimed to me that it boggles the mind how the rest of the world managed not to starve before the discovery of the Americas. Lengthy discussions followed proclaimation.

                The gist of child #2's revelation firstly surrounded the blue-purple potato & caused further research & insights on this human's part- producing ripple effects.  New insights.  New eyes.  New awareness.  Especially so re indigenious peoples & (true)global inter connectedness.

                A simple analogy, yet methinks one worth pondering  about the merits of sharing information or knowledge that creates curiosity enough to produce "ripple effects"...

  •  Bullshit #2 (0+ / 0-)
    Thus, do not engage in any talk about race, white supremacy, identity politics, or other matters that may make certain folks "uncomfortable," "upset," "feel dirty," or "angry."

    I had to stand up in school every day and pledge "Liberty and Justice for all".  We for damned sure ain't there.

    There are constructive ways to engage in an actual conversation.  Be specific, and suggest goals which can be realized.

    Rome wasn't built in a day, and making this country better won't happen overnight.

    -7.75 -4.67

    "Freedom's just another word for nothing left to lose."

    There are no Christians in foxholes.

    by Odysseus on Tue Nov 08, 2011 at 10:36:04 PM PST

  •  Welcome to postmodernity. (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    angry marmot
    Your intellectual life, creative voice, and right to speak are subject to the demands of the chorus.

    -7.75 -4.67

    "Freedom's just another word for nothing left to lose."

    There are no Christians in foxholes.

    by Odysseus on Tue Nov 08, 2011 at 10:37:31 PM PST

  •  Bullshit #3. (0+ / 0-)
    You must live for the approval of the (white) Kossacks. If you do not, then you will be marginalized, confronted, and told that your voice is not welcome.

    This site is dedicated to "improving" the Democratic party. Suggesting benchmarks, goals, and methods for doing that are always welcome.

    -7.75 -4.67

    "Freedom's just another word for nothing left to lose."

    There are no Christians in foxholes.

    by Odysseus on Tue Nov 08, 2011 at 10:39:20 PM PST

    •  Bullshit on your bullshit (6+ / 0-)

      This happens, all the time. Try making any constructive criticism of OWS and watch what happens. Or supporting the president on this "Democratic" blog.

      R.I.P. Troy Anthony Davis
      October 9, 1968 - September 21, 2011

      by SwedishJewfish on Tue Nov 08, 2011 at 11:35:37 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  No sheet. (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        SwedishJewfish, mrbeen38, Avila

        Okay?  My thoughts exactly.  It's exactly what I thought about when reading that persons' post.

        "The bottom line is, we've got to wake up. We can't allow our disappointment in Obama to lull us into allowing a truly dangerous strain of conservative philosophy to gain any more traction than it already has." --ObamOcala 4/5/11

        by smoothnmellow on Wed Nov 09, 2011 at 12:42:38 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Me three. (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          SwedishJewfish

          Merely question any part of the Occupy movement and you will be called a troll.  Learned that lesson when I questioned the benefit vs damage to the community of Occupy Oakland the other day... Also see above argument re John Lewis.

          •  Now we're getting somewhere. (0+ / 0-)

            Occupy Oakland is a more complex conversation.  I've only read the very basics, and I don't live in the area.  What specifically do you see as the issues?

            Vandals horning in on what should be a peaceful movement?
            GA resolutions that do more harm than good?

            Occupy as a movement is one of the few reasons I have any hope.  They've done great so far.  Who knows what they'll do next?  I don't.  I may not support it.  I think that would be a shame.

            -7.75 -4.67

            "Freedom's just another word for nothing left to lose."

            There are no Christians in foxholes.

            by Odysseus on Wed Nov 09, 2011 at 08:19:35 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  Respectfully, (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              SwedishJewfish, mallyroyal

              Occupy Oakland is an infinitely less complex conversation than conversation of race taking place in this diary.  Attitudes and thoughts on race have been formed over thousands of years.  Thoughts and attitudes on Occupy Oakland have only been a month in the making.  Your deflection to say that it is a more complex conversation could be seen as a counterpoint to your "Bullshit #2."  I brought up Occupy Oakland however, so maybe I am really the one deflecting.  

              In any event, I am not sure I want to hijack the conversation here and go deeper into Occupy Oakland.  I will say though that the fragility of Oakland and its already struggling and dilapidated downtown make it a far, far different place to protest than at the foot of power on Wall Street.  The collateral damage being suffered by the downtown community and the SMALL businesses there is, in my opinion, causing more harm than good and is also causing a loss of hearts and minds of the 99% who should otherwise be in support of the movement.  Alas, I took the bait and probably already said too much.  Awaiting flames, ridicule, and scorn...

              •  Informed by history does not mean predestined. (0+ / 0-)
                Occupy Oakland is an infinitely less complex conversation than conversation of race taking place in this diary.  Attitudes and thoughts on race have been formed over thousands of years.

                Understood.  But we can look to the future and build something better.

                -7.75 -4.67

                "Freedom's just another word for nothing left to lose."

                There are no Christians in foxholes.

                by Odysseus on Wed Nov 09, 2011 at 09:57:47 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

              •  Occupy Oakland (0+ / 0-)
                I will say though that the fragility of Oakland and its already struggling and dilapidated downtown make it a far, far different place to protest than at the foot of power on Wall Street.

                Yes.  And if the General Assembly is any kind of actual democracy, the suggestions and actions taken will be different.  That doesn't make them more or less valid.

                Some good outcomes can only be reached by unlikely paths.  Some tactics foreclose some good outcomes.  How do we get the best outcomes?

                The collateral damage being suffered by the downtown community and the SMALL businesses there is, in my opinion, causing more harm than good and is also causing a loss of hearts and minds of the 99% who should otherwise be in support of the movement.

                And that's sad.

                -7.75 -4.67

                "Freedom's just another word for nothing left to lose."

                There are no Christians in foxholes.

                by Odysseus on Wed Nov 09, 2011 at 10:02:25 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

              •  Keep speaking out (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                mrbeen38

                a lot of people feel the same way but are afraid to bring it up for all of the reasons you mentioned. But it really needs to be said.

                R.I.P. Troy Anthony Davis
                October 9, 1968 - September 21, 2011

                by SwedishJewfish on Wed Nov 09, 2011 at 10:16:10 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

          •  Re: Lewis (0+ / 0-)

            You can't change the past.  It happened.

            Sometimes people just aren't ready to talk.  Lewis might meet a different reception today.  But I really don't think you can extrapolate from one incident and say "nothing good will ever come from this".

            Be angry if you want.  But look for chances to change things.

            -7.75 -4.67

            "Freedom's just another word for nothing left to lose."

            There are no Christians in foxholes.

            by Odysseus on Wed Nov 09, 2011 at 08:24:16 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  Did someone estrapolate "no good will come?" (3+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Odysseus, SwedishJewfish, Oh Mary Oh

              The argument re Lewis above, as I take it, provides a strong counterpoint to your "Bullshit #3" claim.  Chauncey appears to be expressing that in his view there was reason for folks, black and otherwise, to be offended by the treatment Lewis received by Occupy Atlanta.  Argument then ensued that Chauncey was falling for a conservative perpetrated lie and really there was no reason for offense.  It comes across as an attempt to let him know that despite whatever experience and background he brings to the table, he is just wrong and his experience of the event cannot be accepted and is not welcome here.  Just my opinion though...

              Nowhere was I claiming that the Lewis event shows that "nothing good will ever come" of the occupy movement.

    •  are your goals (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Avila

      for the Dems, the only goals that count.

      The whiteness is running all over you. Let it out!

      Free yourself!

    •  'Improving' is such a relative term here. (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Oh Mary Oh, Avila

      "The bottom line is, we've got to wake up. We can't allow our disappointment in Obama to lull us into allowing a truly dangerous strain of conservative philosophy to gain any more traction than it already has." --ObamOcala 4/5/11

      by smoothnmellow on Wed Nov 09, 2011 at 12:30:44 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  There's limits on what we can do. (0+ / 0-)

        This site was a major reason Donna Edwards got elected.  300k total accounts isn't a governing majority.

        I'm only one man, and I only make $50k/yr.  I do not have the power to simply wave my wand and hire every black man in America.  I want to know about things I CAN do.

        Rome wasn't built in a day, and this county will not magically transform overnight.

        -7.75 -4.67

        "Freedom's just another word for nothing left to lose."

        There are no Christians in foxholes.

        by Odysseus on Wed Nov 09, 2011 at 08:15:05 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

  •  Bullshit #5 (0+ / 0-)
    You must speak in an approved tone that does not offend the sensibilities of white folks who may want to participate in the conversation. We live in the age of the black superpublic where there are no more "black spaces" for private talk. Moreover, the white gaze is real; never forget that your conversation and critique should always allow a space for Whiteness to participate. To do any less is both rude and uncivilized.

    Anyone can create their own private spaces.  Encryption hides them from any prying eyes.  You can retreat as deep into isolation as you want.

    You came here.  You published this for public review.

    -7.75 -4.67

    "Freedom's just another word for nothing left to lose."

    There are no Christians in foxholes.

    by Odysseus on Tue Nov 08, 2011 at 10:42:10 PM PST

  •  I am not a frequent Kossacker (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Oh Mary Oh

    so I don't know how things work or not around here much of the time or whether anyone is more marginalized than another, apart from those with more conservative views (I have more conservative views on a couple of political points, and I don't think they'd be too welcome here--on the one hand, this is a liberal site, so that's understandable, but on the other, we're all different, and dialog is dialog; an open-minded liberal can still be close-minded to differing views).

    When I last frequented this site, it was when Obama was running, and I recall reading a diary or two about the need for frank racial discussions in this country, coming clean with all our thoughts and not playing games...trying to actually get to a good place.

    Just the other day, I was thinking, "You know, I'm not sure that ever happened, and that's one hell of an uphill...don't know if it'd ever work, frankly."

    So, err, here we are. Yeah. A lot of "how dare yous." Yep.

    "With a keen eye for details, one truth prevails." - Detective Conan

    by onetruthprevails on Tue Nov 08, 2011 at 10:42:11 PM PST

  •  Wholehearted agreement (0+ / 0-)
    Race is always secondary to class.

    As far as I'm concerned, you goddamned right.

    -7.75 -4.67

    "Freedom's just another word for nothing left to lose."

    There are no Christians in foxholes.

    by Odysseus on Tue Nov 08, 2011 at 10:43:34 PM PST

  •  This is a private site (0+ / 0-)

    This is a private site run by a private individual with their own set of rules.  Don't like the rules?  Don't let the door hit you on the way out.  

    I also thank the one who rearranged deck chairs on the Titanic so those on board ship could get a better view of the iceberg.

    by NyteByrd1954 on Tue Nov 08, 2011 at 10:50:43 PM PST

    •  I don't think that is how kos runs his site though (5+ / 0-)

      dailykos isn't a place where "don't like it, get out" flies. We, as kossacks, are allowed to speak frankly about the rules for the site, and are permitted to discuss ways to improve the rules to include more people from a wider variety of backgrounds. The rules here are constantly in flux...they are not permanent or written in stone by any means. Kos wants criticism of his system, so he can improve it and make it operate in a fair manner.

      Shutting down the discussion by saying  

      Don't like the rules?  Don't let the door hit you on the way out.  

      runs contrary to the way the rules actually work.

      Community moderation and FAQ are an expression of Kos' desire to make the moderation system all inclusive. Anyone who is a Trusted User has the ability to determine whether a comment should be hidden from public view. Everyone can edit the FAQ to better reflect this community's shifting norms.

      So honestly, it does more harm to say what you just said than it does to actually discuss moderation, rules, and community norms in an adult fashion.

      "The clown car always has room for one more" - a hilarious kossack

      by rexymeteorite on Tue Nov 08, 2011 at 11:26:24 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Harmfull? (0+ / 0-)
        So honestly, it does more harm to say what you just said than it does to actually discuss moderation, rules, and community norms in an adult fashion.

        So much "harm", the earth tilted off its axis.  

        I also thank the one who rearranged deck chairs on the Titanic so those on board ship could get a better view of the iceberg.

        by NyteByrd1954 on Wed Nov 09, 2011 at 09:41:10 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

    •  Umm so what you got out of this diary (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Oh Mary Oh, Avila

      was that the diarist don't like the rules????

      Epic fail on your part.

      Try reading it again, or better yet, just leave it alone.

      It's not worth the effort.

      "The bottom line is, we've got to wake up. We can't allow our disappointment in Obama to lull us into allowing a truly dangerous strain of conservative philosophy to gain any more traction than it already has." --ObamOcala 4/5/11

      by smoothnmellow on Wed Nov 09, 2011 at 12:34:35 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  Maybe we should just replace the word (0+ / 0-)

    "respect" with "courtesy" or better yet, follow the "don't be an asshole" rule.  That alone would make me a happy camper.

    #Occupy Wallstreet - Politicians will not support the movement until it is too big to fail.

    by Sychotic1 on Tue Nov 08, 2011 at 11:43:29 PM PST

  •  Tipped and Rec'd for 9 and 10 alone. (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    mallyroyal, Chitown Kev, Oh Mary Oh, Avila

    And as a bookmark.  Well written.  Under the 'new rules', DKers should not be abusing HR and they damn sho better have a good reason for dropping donuts in someone else's diary.

    Discussions about race and white privilege is not a good reason.

    It's an excuse to silence.  I'm not down with that.

    "The bottom line is, we've got to wake up. We can't allow our disappointment in Obama to lull us into allowing a truly dangerous strain of conservative philosophy to gain any more traction than it already has." --ObamOcala 4/5/11

    by smoothnmellow on Tue Nov 08, 2011 at 11:43:56 PM PST

  •  Well, I've been on this site since (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    mallyroyal, Oh Mary Oh

    2003 and have used the HR only once in response to an offensive address to someone else. Abusive behavior merits an intervention.
    On the other hand, the internet does not strike me as a good venue for dialogue, if only because a conversation between two people is exclusive and is likely to make other readers feel left out.  A focus on topics and issues is more inclusive, strange as that might seem.
    Private conversations in public are not polite. But then, our appreciation of privacy is not as well developed as we might like. Or as I might like. :)

    People to Wall Street: "LET OUR MONEY GO"

    by hannah on Wed Nov 09, 2011 at 02:55:28 AM PST

  •  confession time (4+ / 0-)

    yes I was part of the "september purge" of a bunch of black folks. And yes I was hurt and surprised.
    My offense was I uprated/HR'd a bunch of nasty comments.
    Comments I thought were in defense of my people.
    But as a lil ole black lady ex-hippie chick now corporate assistant manager in a large global corporation....I will play by the rules.
    So I appealed to the God and he reinstated me.
    I have learned:
    No fucking with the rules per the "moderator"
    I just want the moderator to know, I will play by your rule of not clicking the HR button evAH nevAH when it comes to race. I can call Romney an asshole and FUSS with the "progressive" white left but don't call them racist and heaven god, don't click that HR button.

  •  well (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Oh Mary Oh, Avila

    read thru all the comments, made a few, usually i think when i come in late that my comments will appear to be directed at the wrong poster.
    i am still astonished that so many could misread this diary.
    often i have to look at myself and reflect upon whether some thought or interaction with another was caused by some racism within me.  i try to be self aware, i think much of the miscomprehension here is caused by a lack of introspection.
    thank you for the diary, keep them coming.

    ...sin that pays its way can travel freely, and without a passport,whereas Virtue, if a pauper is stopped at all frontiers. from The Sermon, Moby Dick

    by jts327 on Wed Nov 09, 2011 at 05:25:52 AM PST

  •  I've bumped up against every last one of those (7+ / 0-)

    numbered tips on my time on this site.

    if I weren't as stubborn as the animal associated with my political affiliation, I'd have probably long quit the site.

    but I am, so I haven't, and won't.

    great diary.

    This comment is dedicated to my mellow Adept2U and his Uncle Marcus

    by mallyroyal on Wed Nov 09, 2011 at 06:15:26 AM PST

  •  Came out of lurkdom to respond: (3+ / 0-)

    It's often difficult for people to see/deconstruct their own unspoken rules and a priori assumptions about race and "others", especially when they perceive themselves as generally well intentioned.  I appreciate this diary because it makes those unspoken rules explicit.

    Just because you don't think of yourself as racist doesn't mean you don't have a perspective of "white" privilege.  Denial or deflection doesn't change that.  It is what it is and if you don't see that it is there IMO you need this conversation.

  •  bravo (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    mallyroyal, blueness

    thank you, chauncey.  (subscribed.  i don't want to miss anything you have to say.)  

  •  This analysis is on point. . . (0+ / 0-)

    I have never seen a bigger pack of idiots and pseduo intellectuals  commenting on the legitmacy of Mr. Develga's diary submission.  My Lord, you are not even remotely able to acknowledge or examine your own privilege AND at least pretend that you engage is some small amount of self reflection.  Of course, Herman Cain is a walking minstrel show and most African-Americans share Mr. Devega's perceptions of Cain, which were so eloquently broken down in Mr. Devega's earlier article.  This belief is verbalized so often by us and written about in Black blogs, it's SHOCKS me that you would fight Mr. Devega on this point.  But despite your puffed up desire to be perceived as a [white] liberal-progressive-intellectual-multicultural, you might not know this because you don't step one foot out of a physical, emotional, community space not dominated by your own kind.  Mr. Devega is dy-no-mite and his analysis is entirely on point!    

  •  POWERFUL video. Thank you for this diary. (nt) (0+ / 0-)
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