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And long live Occupy! Time to occupy our lives for the winter. It is time to take stock and plan for spring. Inevitably old habits and tendencies die hard. Individual spokespeople and elite committees were already forming and that is not bad but defeats what made Occupy so interesting--and exercise in emergent intelligence. Having said that there is an ideal size for groups and the GAs were getting too large to be effective. The disorganization and ad hoc quality of the GAs was great because it showed that a certain level of organization and intelligence could emerge but then it reached the law of diminishing returns.

The issue we face is not fighting the oligarchs but, rather, finding a new way of organizing ourselves into a new way of life and a new economy. This new way of life emphasizes community and human welfare as opposed to the welfare of money and profit and those that feed off of the labor of others. Let's look at what comes next.

First, we need to turn to what is known about groups and how humans function best. Generally, social scientists believe that ideal group sizes are between five and fifteen. It might be a little more but certainly not much more. Thus future Occupy groups need to be made up of small groups either organized by function or affinity. These groups ought to register as part of the movement without giving anyone's name providing some minimum amount of security. There groups could get together with other groups and participate in group actions through creating web nodes. But, for the most part, actions should be done by as few people as possible--hitting a spot unannounced, creating a bit of theater or disruption then leaving before the police come.

General Assemblies should be conducted to create a general consensus as to what sorts of things need doing and then let the small groups arrange themselves as necessary.

Second, protesters need to understand that they live in a social environment that is generally hostile to Occupy goals. The idea that "we are the 99%" is a cool slogan but it is nowhere near true. Most Americans are tribal and will support a 20% reduction or more in their own income if the oligarchs wave enough flags and pull out the Bible--that's just a fact. It will take years to move people to the idea that they are, in fact, being hustled by con men and women. The con should be the focus of all protests.

Third, the movement needs to focus not just on protest but in creating a new way of life including an alternative economy by creating collectives, cooperatives to run businesses that would provide employment, housing, food and medicine for the people in the movement where required. This would be a gradual process. For example, there are activists who make videos, write copy, perform, create ads and websites who can organize in collectives (this is quite different and has nothing to do with the small groups described above) and be run as businesses using the synergy that can come (when properly run) from sharing a vision and a focus. At the same time, there could be a directory of businesses that support Occupy who should sign up and should get all the business of those that also support Occupy. No one should do business with oligarch-friendly businesses.

Fourth, national/international boycotts should be highly focused on a few of the worst companies despoiling our lives and the earth. Boycotts can easily go viral and spread beyond the Occupy movement.

Fifth, and this is going to be the most controversial, the movement needs to reach out to the non-authoritarian right like the followers of Ron Paul who are also opposed to the emergent police state and the oligarchical set-up. Right now government is more part of the problem than part of the soulution--with the exception of a few good programs most high-stakes positions in government have either been bought or influenced by the oligarchs. As a long-time resident who has lived inside the beltway for most of my life, I can tell you that I've never seen the government more blatantly corrupt--the libertarians have a point at this time though I disagree with their political philosophy. Libertarians and other elements of the right  may not always be allies but in the current struggle we have the same enemies, the oligarchs and the emergent police/propaganda state that has merged TBTF corporations and government. I know people who are on the right (who live in the south) who may not be very sympathetic to the left but who are very well-armed and don't want anybody, not government, not big corporations messing with them.

Which brings me to the matter of non-violence. I personally believe non-violence is the best path at this stage of the struggle. But I think there is an edge here we need to discuss at some point--how far do we go in resisting? Is there a role for monkey-wrenching including the destruction of property? What happens should there be massive and violent repression? I don't, for example, consider what the police have done up until now to be that bad but what if they go further?

This is just a tentative look at what we ought to be discussing. I don't pretend to really know the correct path--just want to move the discussion forward. We need to be clear here that this will take a lot of thought, commitment and discipline.

Originally posted to Postcapitalism on Tue Nov 15, 2011 at 01:08 PM PST.

Also republished by Trolls.

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Comment Preferences

  •  holy shit (27+ / 0-)
    Is there a role for monkey-wrenching including the destruction of property?

    are you serious? "cool slogan?"

    GTFO!

    'canter' is a horse's gait - 'cantor' is a horse's ass. - GayIthacan

    by qannabbos on Tue Nov 15, 2011 at 01:19:14 PM PST

    •  did you actually read the diary? (3+ / 0-)

      I don't think you did--I said the moment is over and long live Occupy. I think tactics need to change.

      •  You sure do think that (6+ / 0-)

        Hell of a lot of "musts" and "need toos" in this diary. I don't like your ideas, and I don't like your tone. OWS is not your personal plaything or science experiment.

        Lots of "facts" that are actually just your opinion, too. Remind me why anyone should listen to you? What have you done besides bloviate?

        •  Obviously this is an opinion piece (0+ / 0-)

          No one needs to listen to me or anyone. You need to address my points not something vague that offends you for some tribal or unconscious reason.

          What have I done, not that much--but I did find myself as a scared to death teen-ager at an anti-segregation picket line in the south. I attended a lot of demonstrations in the sixties and ate some nasty gasses from the cops--I ran very fast and avoided some beatings many times. I was part of a collective that put out an underground paper. Didn't do that much after that really, raised a family four kids all doing very well all givers and not takers, two grandchildren, worked here and there etc., etc, nothing special--gave money to progressive causes when I felt like it--organized an local anti-Iraq demonstration in my locality and yes, I have been known to bloviate.

      •  Sorry you are wrong! (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Roger Fox, kurt

        The Occupy movement has been so successful that we now have the oligarchy fighting back and using their -gasp- government agencies to expell us. I know you were playing on an old worn out cliche', so you should e aware that it is an OLD WORN OUT CLICHE'. Your ideas relating to potential use pof violence are also BS- Gandhi and MLK knew their causes had to show non violence.

        Those who make peaceful revolution impossible make violent revolution inevitable-John F. Kennedy

        by TexasTwister on Tue Nov 15, 2011 at 03:26:52 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

  •  incoming! n/t (5+ / 0-)

    I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man's reasoning powers are not above the monkey's. - Mark Twain

    by route66 on Tue Nov 15, 2011 at 01:21:04 PM PST

  •  HR advocating sabotage nt (10+ / 0-)

    Education is a progressive discovery of our own ignorance.

    by Horace Boothroyd III on Tue Nov 15, 2011 at 01:21:06 PM PST

    •  I don't know. (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      cville townie, paulitics, PeterHug

      I have profound disagreements with this diary, from the title on down (though I like the emphasis on collectives and co ops).  I'm deeply commited to both non-violence and non-destruction of property (I see them as distinct morally, but inextricable politically.)  Still, I don't think this rises to the level of HR.  I think it's just kinda dumb.

      •  I think you are discounting how damaging (20+ / 0-)

        political violence of any kind is, and how quickly it can spread and kill a democracy.

        These are tense times, bad things are likely to happen no matter what we do, but we have to stand on the principal that violence in politics is never acceptable.

        That means coming down hard on anyone young enough or dumb enough to suggest it.

        I am baking for Occupy DC, if you'd like to help, click here to see how!

        by Something the Dog Said on Tue Nov 15, 2011 at 01:37:09 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Ultimately, things happen (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Joncleir

          I said at this point in the struggle violence is a bad idea. But the oligarchs, frankly, are not going to give in with a few protests and a friendly and controlled press. What then? What if the economy really crashes and civilization takes a dive? Only when there is a decent oligarchy can non-violence work--Gandhi counted on the fact the British had a conscience. Had he done that two centuries before the Brits would have mowed him down. Same with the Civil Rights movement--it required a special moment when Americans were highly attuned to the idea of justice since they had fought WWII against fascists and we were standing up against an Stalinist eastern Europe which featured the most crude forms of repression. Had that not been the case would non-violence have worked?

          •  Civilization takes a dive? (0+ / 0-)

            We've been through a depression and several recessions in this country, and managed to save civilization every time.
            You must think we're all a bunch of savages or something.

            You will never know what it’s like to work on a farm until your hands are raw, just so people can have fresh marijuana. Jack Handey

            by skohayes on Tue Nov 15, 2011 at 04:20:25 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  You should read about climate change sometime (0+ / 0-)

              At the very least we will see some serious disruptions of normal life and at worst we will experience major catastrophes  on a scale we have not seen since the Lesser Dryas Ice Age and may well go beyond that. I think the end or close to the end of civilization is a real possibility. Also, we are definitely emerging into an era of no or slow growth--what is wrong there? Well, the civilization as we've constructed depends on high growth--without it interest cannot be paid and austerity will circle into something rather unpleasant and worse than the Depression because we are much more vulnerable. When a Model T or Model A broke down most people could repair it--our technology is way too complex for most people to fix or adapt. My son can do stuff like that and a few others I know but not many.

              •  Yes, climate change (0+ / 0-)

                will affect our lives in one degree or another. But humans are the best species on earth at adapting. That's why we've been so successful.
                As to what's wrong with the economy, we're still recovering from the biggest recession since the Great Depression. Yes, it's been a slow recovery, but we are recovering.
                We'd be in better shape if we didn't have Republicans in the House voting against every jobs bill that the Democrats submit to the floor.

                You will never know what it’s like to work on a farm until your hands are raw, just so people can have fresh marijuana. Jack Handey

                by skohayes on Tue Nov 15, 2011 at 05:28:56 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  those Republicans do represent (0+ / 0-)

                  a lot of people and they're not going away.

                  Yes, good point about adaptability but the situation is more dire than you think. I think we could luck out and preserve and evolve with minimum disruption--I hope so because I do believe in magic--but it certainly is, according to the best climate scientists I know of, a very dangerous situation.

        •  Let me be clear: (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          fcvaguy

          I am steadfastly against violence, political or otherwise.  And I am very much for disciplined adherence to nonviolent means of protest.  My condemnation of property damage, however, is more nuanced.  I think it is horrendously bad for our movement, our goals. Like actual violence, it's unnacceptabilty flows from both moral and political sources.  The proportions are different, however.  I don't like the black bloc, I hated the weathermen, but I find it hard to condemn the Berrigan brothers.

      •  The r0n p4u1 advocacy did it for me. (11+ / 0-)

        There's nothing progressive or remotely sane about allying with the supporters of the "OLD CRAZY MAN YELLS AT CLOUD" candidate.

        "When I give food to the poor, they call me a saint. When I ask why the poor have no food, they call me a communist." --Dom Helder Camara, archbishop of Recife

        by JamesGG on Tue Nov 15, 2011 at 01:38:44 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  snuck that in cleverly (6+ / 0-)

          but not cleverly enough!

          "Things are never so bad they can't get worse" - Dallasdoc

          by Shahryar on Tue Nov 15, 2011 at 01:48:03 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

        •  I'm not particularly fond of RP (0+ / 0-)

          but I know lots of great people who support him. Why? He's the only anti-war candidate who regularly stands up for civil liberties unlike most Democrats. The rest of his spiel doesn't work for me. But you all don't understand politics so you assume that tactical alliances are impossible--they aren't but then thinking beyond the knee-jerk reaction may not be your forte.

          •  Right now we're waging a pitched battle... (7+ / 0-)

            ...to preserve the social safety net and entitlement programs like Social Security and Medicare.

            Ron Paul wants to eliminate those programs.

            Right now we need significantly stronger environmental, financial, and labor regulations imposed on business by a government representing the interests of the people, in order to stop the destruction of our planet and the exploitation of our people by the top 1%.

            Ron Paul wants to end all of those regulations and let the 1% do whatever the hell they want.

            I'm not sure a "tactical alliance" is possible with those who want to accelerate the suffering of our poor, the exploitation of our workers, and the destruction of our society.

            "When I give food to the poor, they call me a saint. When I ask why the poor have no food, they call me a communist." --Dom Helder Camara, archbishop of Recife

            by JamesGG on Tue Nov 15, 2011 at 02:06:46 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  Yep. (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              skohayes, Roger Fox

              "Against us on everything but the war?"

            •  I think the libertarian POV would enable (0+ / 0-)

              What we are looking for by re-instituting rule-of-law and the Constitution. As things stand today environmental laws are not going to happen or even come close to happening. With a country that honors law and civil liberties we may have a better chance. But I never advocated for RP, just on the civil liberties and anti-war areas we can make progress by making alliances--but evidently that is too sophisticated to most of you to understand. Politics is the art of the deal--you are never going to convince the majority of the American people that they should be progressives--just can't happen. People are tribal not reasonable when it comes to politics.

          •  I know lots of people who support Paul (5+ / 0-)

            who have a radically different world view from me. They believe selfishness is a defining national trait and that people don't have any obligation to take care of each other. Unfortunately, in the past there have been anti-war progressives who have been snookered by Paul's isolationism. But "the rest of his spiel" is who he is. I am not making any tactical alliances with anyone who wants to strip women of control of their bodies — completely betraying pure libertarianism. And if progressives don't open their eyes and realize that they will hit a wall at 200 mph if they don't pay attention to this, we are in trouble. Not paying attention to this was why Ohio got stuck with John Kasich.

            Take the "Can't(or)" out of Congress. Support E. Wayne Powell in Va-07. http://www.ewaynepowell.com/

            by anastasia p on Tue Nov 15, 2011 at 02:18:39 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  Nobody is being snookered (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Joncleir

              RP and his ilk advocate not pure selfishness but liberty, i.e., little government. In their personal lives, some may be just selfish but I haven't seen any great difference. Most of us are relatively selfish. What I think RP gives us is a POV that values the fundamentals of our form of gov't, the Constitution, rule of law and non-meddling in foreign affairs. We can argue about social policy when we return to Constitutional rule and rule-of-law, i.e., not one law for the oligarchs and another for the rest of us.

              •  Whoah. (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                skohayes, kurt

                Is it just me or is anyone else noticing that giant corporations run by fabulously wealthy people -- folks who got wealthy by the kind of deregulation that Paul advocates -- are in charge?

                Three things can compete with these bastards, and Ron Paul doesn't give a crap about any of them.

                1. Government
                2. Unions
                3. The collective goodwill of people banding together

                You can make libertarians your allies sometimes, sure.  I'm happy that there's someone embarrassing the GOP about war at the debates.  But they are decidedly not our friends.

                •  Agree, sort of. (0+ / 0-)

                  They are not our friends--but a tactical alliance is in order in my view. But I realize that I can't say that here.

                  I agree that government belongs on that list theoretically.  But in actual fact the government that was shown to act as portrayed in the Grapes of Wrath no longer exists. Government has itself become incredibly corrupt--I say this as someone who has lived inside the Beltway for most of my life and been a government contractor (now out of that for now).

              •  lots of them are morons (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Karl Rover

                Most RP supporters know one or two things about him and than automatically cut themselves off from any contradictory information about him. They are easy the most uniformed and obnoxious "supporters" of anything that I have ever dealt with. They are diehard hard right conservatives. Those that are only supporting him because he wants to legalize drugs and get out of Iraq have not done enough support. Ron Paul is a bible thumpin southern segregationist.

                •  Not really (0+ / 0-)

                  There's some truth in what you say but I wouldn't characterize all of them in that way and while I think RP is wrong-headed many of his supporters are much more broad-minded than you say--at least that's been my experience.

                  •  "Lots" is not "all". They act like LaRouchies (3+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    kurt, skohayes, Karl Rover

                    They spam the internet, bury their head in the sand, cannot except that nobody cares about RP. Anything negative against Ron Paul is a "conspiracy" because "they" don't "want the truth about Paul" to get out. Ron Paul supporters for the most part are either ignorant college kids or Tea Party members. That is it. This is the Alex Jones contingent, and Alex Jones is a massive Paleoconservative. Ron Paul is a massive Paleoconservative as well.

                    Its total fucking bullshit. Ron Paul is just way to far to the right for most Americans. Most Americans do not want to disband the board of education like Paul wants too. They don't want to end SS/Medicare like Paul does. They don't want to deregulate even more like Paul does. They do not think African Americans are "animals" like Paul does.

                    I don't know how old you are, I am in my late 20s. My nation cannot take a politician like Mitt Romney leading it, let alone a hardcore christian evangelist like Ron Paul. The guy thinks there is a "war on Christmas" for fucks sake.

              •  So you think (0+ / 0-)

                that we shouldn't be sending foreign aid to Africa to help fight the AIDS/HIV epidemic, or to help feed starving children?
                Maybe we're wasting our money trying to find alternate crops for farmers to raise in Afghanistan so they don't grow poppy for heroin?

                You will never know what it’s like to work on a farm until your hands are raw, just so people can have fresh marijuana. Jack Handey

                by skohayes on Tue Nov 15, 2011 at 04:30:50 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

            •  Ron Paul - "Batshit crazy and not ashamed of it!" (0+ / 0-)

              The only positive aspect of Ron Paul is that he sure doesn't beat around the bush or try to sugar-coat his positions...

          •  What a well reasoned and thought out (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            allergywoman, skohayes

            load of horseshit. My GOD you are among the least talented writers and debaters I have ever met and I have been online since 1985.

            As NO ONE is buying what you are selling, I suggest packing it in and getting a day job. Writing and argumentation are not your forte.

            Here's a clue, just a simple little tip for you: saying "You don't understand stuff" does not win arguments.

            Let me demonstrate: you don't understand politics, haha, I won the argument and you lost! See how silly that sounds when I say it to you? Guess what? It sounds just as stupid when you say it.

            •  Well, that's pretty smart of you (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Joncleir

              And, from your style, I will take that as a compliment! I refer you to Plato's dialogues if you want to talk about arguments and dialectic. Calling people names is not generally accepted as a legit form of argument. You attack my points not me if you want to make a coherent counter to what I wrote. When I said "I don't know" I am referring to what is sometimes called skepticism--yes, I even doubt what I say because I know for sure than, in the end, I'm bound to have a deep flaw in what I say. Only through interaction (dialectic) can we come on something resembling the truth. Truth, knowledge is always about interaction--no one comes to truth by him/herself. I'm only asking that you all present counter-arguments. I don't care if I'm "wrong" or "right" I care for the dialogue.

              Some have pointed out, for example, that I am wrong in saying RP is "anti-authoritarian" because he is against choice. That's a good argument--I have a counter to it but the commenter made a point that is valid in my view. She didn't just call me an idiot or that I should go fuck myself and so on.

              •  My coherent counter is thus: (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                skohayes, Roger Fox

                You claimed that people here simply don't understand politics. You took reasoned debate off the agenda at exactly that point.  For the record, you were the one who started slinging insults at the whole damn site, claiming people at a site dedicated to politics don't understand it because they don't agree with you.

                Then, when I called you out as an insulting and supercilious ass, you turned it back on me and claimed that I was the one being a jerk for pointing out what a jerk you are. Hypocrite.

                •  I didn't call out the entire site (0+ / 0-)

                  If I did I was clearly wrong--I'm often wrong, in fact.

                  Also, I never said you were a jerk.  You want to close your mind so go for it. You addressed absolutely none of my points so there it is.

                  •  I did address your points (0+ / 0-)

                    You don't get to whinge about people not arguing fair when you didn't argue fair. But I see now that your heart is in the right place, that was almost an apology! Maybe I was too harsh. This is the Internet, everyone's an opinionated ass here (including me.)

          •  Tactical alliances (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            skohayes, Roger Fox, kurt

            like a liberal-progressive - Paultard alliance? or a Jane Hamsher - Grover Norquist alliance?  No. Those aren't alliances. They are political suicide pacts.

            •  YES> Our ideas are better (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              fcvaguy, kurt

              and peeling the outer layers of support via better ideas is far better than "tactical alliances".

              Of course if one thought our ideas sucked, then maybe a tactical alliance would play in Peoria.....

              They are political suicide pacts.

              Yup.

              We are the 99% is way better than any idea ever to come out Paulites or LaRouches in 50 years.

              FDR 9-23-33, "If we cannot do this one way, we will do it another way. But do it we will.

              by Roger Fox on Tue Nov 15, 2011 at 04:50:19 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

        •  You mean, Kucinich supporters? (0+ / 0-)

          Have we ever seen the two of them in one place?

    •  didn't advocate sabotage (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Claudius Bombarnac

      I asked the question about a tactic. Should have been obvious.

  •  um no (9+ / 0-)

    we cannot stand with Paul.

    as for property damage, it's going to happen.  

    a better method would be to protest until they arrest you.  keep coming back again and again in a non-violent way.

    if thousands did this then they wouldn't be able to shut the protests down.

  •  aw (6+ / 0-)

    "I don't pretend to really know"
    yes you do pretend to know or you would have not posted this while those of us that do "know" await the Judge decision.
    as for your "Which brings me to the matter of non-violence. I personally believe non-violence is the best path at this stage of the struggle."
    Tell ya what..let's swap I went to jail for my non-violent belief belief..
    I will go first.. me and my colors in the photo
    http://www.denverpost.com/...

    Now your turn...
    hey I got a lot more...

    "There's something going on but you don't know what it is, do you Mr. Jones?"

    •  Sorry, you make no argument (0+ / 0-)

      other than an ad hominem attack. I don't know--that's the whole point of collectives. But someone needs to ask question and think outside the box--here you and many other show your focus on orthodox. Deal with what I said not some fantasy of me being "bad."

      •  How about the idea of Ron Paul (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        allergywoman, kurt

        as 'non-authoritarian' when he is profoundly anti-choice?

        Take the "Can't(or)" out of Congress. Support E. Wayne Powell in Va-07. http://www.ewaynepowell.com/

        by anastasia p on Tue Nov 15, 2011 at 02:14:29 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  True (0+ / 0-)

          But he makes it clear he believes it is up to the states and localities. I don't support Paul in many ways but he is anti-authoritarian in many areas--he's just a true believer in the pro-life position--a form of insanity to be sure but it doesn't come from a desire to be a fascist--he just believes fetuses are people so should be protected. But alliances are about making deals when you have a common interest. As I mentioned in another post, politics is the art of the deal--you work with people--I can guarantee that most Americans will never be progressives any time soon because politics is tribal. The relative strength of progressives v. conservatives has not changed much over the years and is unlikely to change so we have to do what we can.

          •  He's a Republican (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            kurt

            Libertarians believe that abortion is a private issue between a woman and her doctor. Even libertarians who think abortion is wrong still understand that one shouldn't force one's moral code on another person, as that would be against their philosopy of personal freedom, wouldn't it?
            And it's already left up to the states now, what he wants to do is pass a "Sanctity of Life Act" which would effectively appeal Roe v Wade.
            It's right here on his website:
            http://www.ronpaul2012.com/...

            I have no common interests with Paul, that I can't find with representatives in my own party, who hold much more agreeable views on things like civil rights.
            There's no benefit to supporting Paul or forming some sort of "alliance" with him.

            You will never know what it’s like to work on a farm until your hands are raw, just so people can have fresh marijuana. Jack Handey

            by skohayes on Tue Nov 15, 2011 at 04:42:02 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

  •  hahahahaha. Ron Paul. (12+ / 0-)

    "Repression works only to strengthen and knit the repressed." --J. Steinbeck

    by livjack on Tue Nov 15, 2011 at 01:27:19 PM PST

  •  hmmm (6+ / 0-)

    Why don't you share your beliefs with your Local Occupy Movement.. they have this thing GA.. go there..speak there..but if ya try this stuff here?  cool..

    Respect matters to the 99%

  •  Okay there is a ton of this that I disagree with (22+ / 0-)

    but you're getting the HR in the tip jar because you want to even open the door to discussion of violence in the form of property destruction.

    It is not okay. Ever. It is violence even if there is no humans involved. It is political violence, and that is never, ever acceptable.

    I recommend that if you want to have any credibility around here you pull this diary and think long and hard before you put any kind of crap like this up.

    I am baking for Occupy DC, if you'd like to help, click here to see how!

    by Something the Dog Said on Tue Nov 15, 2011 at 01:29:56 PM PST

  •  HRed for ct (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    qannabbos, allergywoman

    no facts to base headline on whatsoever.

  •  The Occupy Moment is Over+ (6+ / 0-)

    Pull back for the winter!  you couldn't be more wrong.  OWS needs to keep the pressure on.  If the movement survives the winter, and I firmly believe it will, it will emerge even stronger.  Small groups, 5-15 members?  Small groups didn't force Nixon to end the war in Vietnam, massive protests did.

  •  I Think We'll See at Least (3+ / 0-)

    A little more now before winter sets in.

    A couple of things have changed in the last few days.

    First, the Bloomberg raid.  This will give the movement more fuel to run on.  For a while.

    But more importantly, Europe is still in very dire straights. Greece looks still very likely to default. And maybe sooner than we all believe. This will send out shockwaves that will result in another domestic bank bailout.

    The elites might be able to bury the bailout beneath enough hocus-pocus to disguise it.  But if it can't, we'll see more discontent bubbling to the surface.

    "I'll believe that corporations are people when I see Rick Perry execute one."

    by bink on Tue Nov 15, 2011 at 01:32:52 PM PST

    •  I don't think another bailout. (0+ / 0-)

      I think Obama learned a tough lesson.  This time we nationalize them, then systematically disassemble the big investment banks while helping the smaller banks.

      I agree, Europe, China, and the Super congress are about to take over the news coverage.

    •  Sounds like you're advocating violence (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Claudius Bombarnac

      If I was like the rest of the lynch mob I'd HR it. But I never HR on principle since I believe in freedom of thought and expression.

      •  Well that, (0+ / 0-)

        and you're not supposed to HR people in your own diaries.
        And an HR does not inhibit your freedom of thought, does it? It doesn't prevent other people from seeing it, does it?

        You will never know what it’s like to work on a farm until your hands are raw, just so people can have fresh marijuana. Jack Handey

        by skohayes on Tue Nov 15, 2011 at 04:47:04 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

  •  OWS will move forward, not back. (5+ / 0-)

    I've been impressed with how intelligent the movement has been.  Whatever happens, the movement will find a way forward.

    Mayors may close parks and unleash armies of riot police-- it will not stop OWS.  America needs to realize that the millions of unemployed need a place to go to work. If conventional jobs do not exist-- the unemployed, and the young whose futures are being stolen will gather and they will work.  They will work to correct the wrongs that have been done.  They will work to reform government.

    OWS must continue to change minds--- to help those who do not understand what is happening see the light, and to gain political power.

  •  "monkey-wrenching"... (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Crashing Vor, qannabbos

    ...is a tag?!!  Is that like Rickrolling?

  •  Wrong...it's not over, it's a bump in the road. (6+ / 0-)

    And there's no way in hell that I'm standing with Ron Paul!

  •  Words FAIL thee. (9+ / 0-)

    One very tiny example:

    "Second, protesters need to understand that they live in a social environment that is generally hostile to Occupy goals."

    Um...

    Er...

    Ah...

    One line of your essay. One google search. I presume the rest of your research is equally vigorous.

    Corporations are people, my friend Yeah, well, so's Soylent Green, so I don't find that very comforting. New video: Power

    by Crashing Vor on Tue Nov 15, 2011 at 01:46:15 PM PST

  •  The non-authoritarian right? (8+ / 0-)

    That is a bizarre phrase.  What does it even mean?

    I don't understand the constant efforts to convince people on Daily Kos to form an alliance with Ron Paul and his cultlike followers.  Yes, he wants to slash military spending and end the drug war, but the guy is a racist crank who worships the power of private property above all else.  Why would anyone here want to support that?

  •  To all the Paulites on DKos (6+ / 0-)

    Give it up.  We're not going to flock to the banner of that destructive old man just because he is, like the stopped clock, right once in a while.  You are wasting your time.  More importantly, you are wasting our time.

    Sarcasm. Just one more service I provide.

    by Grannus on Tue Nov 15, 2011 at 01:52:47 PM PST

    •  I'm not a RP supporter (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Joncleir

      At all--politics is about making alliances but that notion is too sophisticated, obviously for most people who post here. I've seen RP people at Occupy events--they're not monsters you all like to portray them as. I am a social democrat with anarchist leanings if you want to know.

      •  How condescending! (4+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        allergywoman, skohayes, kurt, Grannus

        Any "alliance" with Ron Paul could only be about one thing: withdrawing our troops from around the world. OK, what else do we share with him? Absolutely nothing. I haven't seen a single Ron Paul person at an occupy event, and the Ron Paul people I know mock it online.

        Take the "Can't(or)" out of Congress. Support E. Wayne Powell in Va-07. http://www.ewaynepowell.com/

        by anastasia p on Tue Nov 15, 2011 at 02:21:12 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  Can you explain (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        kurt, Grannus

        why an alliance with Paul is necessary? What can he offer the Democrats? Or Obama, for that matter? he's a Congressman, and there are 434 other Congressmen and women in the House.
         Do you think, even if Paul were elected President, that Congress would allow him to withdraw all our troops from foreign bases?
        Are you serious?

        You will never know what it’s like to work on a farm until your hands are raw, just so people can have fresh marijuana. Jack Handey

        by skohayes on Tue Nov 15, 2011 at 04:52:13 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  An alliance with Ron Paul? (0+ / 0-)

        How about an alliance with Eric Cantor too.  When you ally with someone, you take all their other baggage as well, even if you don't agree with it.  Are you new to politics?

        Sarcasm. Just one more service I provide.

        by Grannus on Wed Nov 16, 2011 at 02:42:33 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

  •  LOL. Maybe we should enlist the help of (3+ / 0-)

    Alex Jones, too?  Jesus. (Come to think of it, building an alliance with Jesus himself would be more feasible than building an alliance with the "non-authoritarian right" as you call it)

    HR'd for even entertaining the thought of violence.

    Homosexuality is found in over 450 species. Homophobia is found in only one. Which one seems unnatural now?

    by Chrislove on Tue Nov 15, 2011 at 01:53:41 PM PST

    •  Alex Jones is helping. (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      banger

      He has his followers, DKos has it's.

      Outside the Box: Occupy Wall Street

      This whole OWS movement is “scary” for the elite because it does not adhere to institutionalized patterns. There seems to be no head to lop off. Plus, the movement does not fall into Corporatocracy’s standardized traps—but seems to dance around them, even taking bait without springing the traps. Established rules of engagement are being ignored.

      And now it’s all spreading around the world.

      CorpoMedia full-power omit-and-suppress routine blew up in the elite’s faces. Customary ad hominem low blows are backfiring. They could just crush the thing like a bug…except it’s not a bug. It’s an idea. Ideas can be very contagious if they have good character. And how do you kill an idea?

      HR'd for even entertaining the thought of violence.

      Banger did not advocate violence. It was only brought up for discussion.

      Have you been watching the protests in Greece, London, Spain, Portugal, France, South America, Central America????

      •  Alex Jones is "helping"? lol? (0+ / 0-)

        If you think Alex Jones is "helping," I'm curious as to what your definition of "helping" entails.  By "helping," do you mean exposing the evils of Bohemian Grove and chasing members of the Bilderberg Group with cameras?  If so, yes, Alex Jones and his nutjob conspiracy theorist wackadoodle fucknutf followers are doing a helluva job.

        I didn't say banger "advocated" violence, although I think that's arguable.  Violence does not have a place in the discourse here at Daily Kos.  I think that's pretty clear.  "Bringing it up for discussion" isn't something that's appropriate.

        Homosexuality is found in over 450 species. Homophobia is found in only one. Which one seems unnatural now?

        by Chrislove on Tue Nov 15, 2011 at 07:09:27 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  What percentage of the American populace (0+ / 0-)

          are "wackadoodles"? I don't give a damn if Alex Jones thinks the US is run by alien shape-shifters. If he can convince some of his followers that the Wall St. banksters are robbing the people blind it just means more people will join OWS.

          Listening to some of the posters in this blog makes me think that they consider OWS to be a special club only for those who can pass some sort of "Democrat" purity test.

          Violence does not have a place in the discourse here at Daily Kos.  I think that's pretty clear.  "Bringing it up for discussion" isn't something that's appropriate.

          See no evil. Speak no evil. Hear no evil.

          Violence WILL occur. There is the Black Bloc to deal with. BTW, in the last two large protests we had in Canada it was proven that the Black Bloc had been infiltrated with police provocateurs to incite violence in order to come down very hard on the protestors. What the Canadian government is trying to do is make things so uncomfortable that people will stay home and not go on the streets to protest. I has worked. Many are too scared to join a protest now.

          You Should Have Stayed Home

  •  Get a clue Banger. (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    banger

    You know what this audience is about.

    "But it ain't about who ya love, see it's all about do ya love," -Michael Franti

    by Cassiodorus on Tue Nov 15, 2011 at 01:54:08 PM PST

    •  Yes I do (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Claudius Bombarnac

      But it's always interesting to stir the hornets nest to check where we are. A couple of  years ago the kind of thing coming out of Occupy would have created a hundred HRs and now it's the Holy Grail.

      Sad.

      •  Big problem: (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        kurt

        You're not persuading anyone. It's difficult enough as it is with the Internet, which according to social-scientific studies has a polarizing effect.  People come to this medium expecting to have preconceived notions reinforced.  Pissing them off just makes it more so.

        Let me suggest an alternate path.  Liberals are now inured to the use of apocalyptic rhetoric in describing abrupt climate change, because the conditions for a dramatic alteration of global climate (with disastrous consequences for agricultural yields) have been greatly exceeded.  The IPCC reports are the small potatoes of this realm of rhetoric, and James Hansen's book is just not exciting enough: for the real action one must watch the ABC special "Earth 2100" on the topic, or read the scenario depicted toward the end of Mark Lynas' "Six Degrees," in which methane clathrates arise from the ocean and are flash-burned in the atmosphere with atomic-bomblike effects.

        However, these same liberals do not make the connection between the apocalypse predicted by the informed observers of climate change, and the apocalypse that will in fact happen in their lives if we continue with capitalism for too much longer.  Now, liberals tend to dislike the symptoms of late capitalism while at the same time thinking that the thing itself is good -- but you can get around this by suggesting that the symptoms are epiphenomena of something which has to end.  You then have an opportunity to pander to your audience while at the same time educating it.

        So that would be an example of a proactive diary -- make connections and teach while leaving your audience on familiar ground.  Here in this diary, though, you've really got to be asking what the point is of raising two red flags -- the question of violence (which the Kosers will not be asking), and the idea of reaching out to the Paulists who are anathema to the Democratic Party bunch here.  Nobody is going to pay attention to the positive points of your diary as long as you raise those red flags.

        "But it ain't about who ya love, see it's all about do ya love," -Michael Franti

        by Cassiodorus on Tue Nov 15, 2011 at 02:43:51 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Clearly you are right (0+ / 0-)

          As far as it goes. However, I'm the sort of person that likes to stir it up--that's my nature. I avoid it out of deference to others--I like people to be happy. I advocated, boycotts only. I mentioned that we need to look at further tactics should the repression get much worse--that's all--just something to talk about. Where is the line between boycotts that cause real damage to employees and, say, demobilizing a polluting power plant? Or pouring blood on draft records as some people did long ago etc., etc. That, presumably, these folks would oppose

          I've got plenty to do and don't care what these people say over here. Most of them are incredibly naive and facile in their views. It shows what I already have seen in life -- that civilization is usually skin deep.

          Having said that, I'll just skulk back into my little corner. I'm going to be moving from Northern VA to North Carolina next week--should be a change.

          •  If you didn't care (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            kurt

            about people's views "over here", why did you publish the diary "over here"?
            And at the top of the comments, you said you were trying to have a discussion, but now you're saying you wanted to "stir the hornets nest".
            That would be admitting that this is a troll diary, and the HRs were warranted.
            It also means I get to republish to the Trolls Group.
            Thanks, banger!

            You will never know what it’s like to work on a farm until your hands are raw, just so people can have fresh marijuana. Jack Handey

            by skohayes on Tue Nov 15, 2011 at 05:01:15 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  Having a discussion and stirring the hornet's nest (0+ / 0-)

              are not mutually exclusive.

              •  Ah, there's the rub (0+ / 0-)

                People who are responding to "stirring the hornet's nest" are not likely to engage in productive "discussion".

                You will never know what it’s like to work on a farm until your hands are raw, just so people can have fresh marijuana. Jack Handey

                by skohayes on Wed Nov 16, 2011 at 03:52:06 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  This diary has been productive for me (0+ / 0-)

                  It has showed that many in DKos have taken ownership of OWS and are trying to place it under the banner of the US Democratic Party.

                  OWS is not about left wing or right wing (because both wings form part of the same bird in most nations now) - it is about up/down.

                  Too many posters in this diary appear to want a Democrat "purity test" for membership in OWS and that's bullshit. OWS is a global offshoot from Tahrir Square.

                  I think it good that banger pressed a few buttons here. It showed there are as many narrow minded people on the left as there are on the right.

                  "If you are not with us, you are against us!"

                  •  your powers are amazing (0+ / 0-)

                    coming to definitive conclusions from such a small sample of this site's participants, an even more tiny slice of Democrats and people on the left and then being able to conclude that "there are as many narrow minded people on left as there on the right"!

                    You will never know what it’s like to work on a farm until your hands are raw, just so people can have fresh marijuana. Jack Handey

                    by skohayes on Thu Nov 17, 2011 at 03:36:11 AM PST

                    [ Parent ]

        •  You're so much smarter than the rest of us ... (0+ / 0-)

          You get it.

          You understand.

          We don't.

          Fuck us! (Liberals, Democrats, Kossaks, whatever)

          And if that's not what you mean to put out ...

          "check yourself before you wreck yourself."

          Just sayin'.
          •  Snark right? (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Claudius Bombarnac

            I'm just looking to start an interesting discussion and so many of you see a slight deviation from orthodoxy as the end of the world. This has nothing to do with me--I don't care what you think of my intelligence--I'm just an artist and musician who read too many books as a kid.

            •  Now wait a minute (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              kurt

              Above you said you wanted to stir the hornets nest:

              But it's always interesting to stir the hornets nest to check where we are

              Now you're trying to start an "interesting discussion" (which evidently consists of insulting the people who bothered to read your diary).

              Which is it?

              You will never know what it’s like to work on a farm until your hands are raw, just so people can have fresh marijuana. Jack Handey

              by skohayes on Tue Nov 15, 2011 at 05:04:01 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

            •  No, not snark ... I'm genuinely turned off by you (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              kurt

              The OWS movment has assiduously avoided  empowering  "spokesmen" and has made a great point of not issuing manifestos.

              And here you are, presenting THE definitive Manifesto.

              As for "just looking to start an interesting discussion "  it doesn't come across as that,  so much as it comes across as a showcase of your own individual ideas and judgments.  It's not the START of a discussion ... it's the Laying of the Law By One Who Knows ALL the Answers -- which is the END of any discussion.

              It's what we used to call "an ego trip."

              Sure, there's plenty of good ideas buried in there, somewhere.   But taken as a whole,  this authoritarianly-toned opus strikes me as being exactly 180 degrees opposite from  "what OWS means to me."

              And since  the OWS is the first really hopeful political development I've seen in a very very long time --  I don't much appreciate your attempt to "speak for the movement" any more than I enjoy the self-regarding tone you employ while doing it.

  •  Procedural question... seriously.... h/r... (0+ / 0-)

    Does the fact that I no longer have the opportunity to give an h/r - apparently the tip jar has been removed - mean that this post is about to be gone?

    I remember when we was both out on the boulevard, talkin' revolution and singin' the blues. Nowadays letters to the editor and cheatin' on our taxes is the best that we can do - Steve Earle

    by hillbrook green on Tue Nov 15, 2011 at 01:58:47 PM PST

    •  If you have TU status (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      kurt

      it means your settings are adjusted so as to make disapeared things disapear.

      •  Thanks. So.... (0+ / 0-)

        - I do have TU status - the tip jar has disappeared but not the diary itself? Meaning that enough H/R's have been recorded to "merit" a review and then the diary will be gone if warranted, I presume?

        I remember when we was both out on the boulevard, talkin' revolution and singin' the blues. Nowadays letters to the editor and cheatin' on our taxes is the best that we can do - Steve Earle

        by hillbrook green on Tue Nov 15, 2011 at 02:08:01 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  The diary and the tip jar aren't connected (0+ / 0-)

          that way.  HRs on the tip jar are a community's sign of disapproval for the diary itself, but they only serve to disappear the tip jar (and the thread it spawns), not the actual diary.

          Only two ways to kill an actual diary:  The diarist "deletes" it or the admins do.  Even then, it's kept on file for admins to peruse for shits and giggles.

        •  If you cant see the tip jar (0+ / 0-)

          I doubt you have TU.

          I see it, it has 13 HR's right now.

          FDR 9-23-33, "If we cannot do this one way, we will do it another way. But do it we will.

          by Roger Fox on Tue Nov 15, 2011 at 04:56:22 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

        •  You can change your settings (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          kurt

          to view the tip jars that are hidden (if you're a TU) by going to your profile page, click on edit profile, then go into comment preferences and change "View hidden comments" from no to yes.

          You will never know what it’s like to work on a farm until your hands are raw, just so people can have fresh marijuana. Jack Handey

          by skohayes on Tue Nov 15, 2011 at 05:06:39 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

  •  "OWS is dead - long live OWS" (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    banger

    I don't know why so many are coming down hard on this diarist.

    Here's a tactical briefing from the "father" of OWS, Adbuster's' blog:

    http://www.adbusters.org/...

    Tactical Briefing #18

    Hey you creatives, artists, environmentalists, workers, moms, dads, students, malcontents, do-gooders and aspiring martyrs in the snow:

    The last four months have been hard fought, inspiring and delightfully revolutionary. We brought tents, hunkered down, held our assemblies, and lobbed a meme-bomb that continues to explode the world's imagination. Many of us have never felt so alive. We have fertilized the future with our revolutionary spirit … and a thousand flowers will surely bloom in the coming Spring.

    But as winter approaches an ominous mood could set in … hope thwarted is in danger of turning sour, patience exhausted becoming anger, militant nonviolence losing its allure. It isn't just the mainstream media that says things could get ugly. What shall we do to keep the magic alive?

    Here are a couple of emerging ideas:

    STRATEGY #1: We summon our strength, grit our teeth and hang in there through winter … heroically we sleep in the snow … we impress the world with our determination and guts … and when the cops come, we put our bodies on the line and resist them nonviolently with everything we've got.

    STRATEGY #2: We declare "victory" and throw a party … a festival … a potlatch … a jubilee … a grand gesture to celebrate, commemorate, rejoice in how far we've come, the comrades we've made, the glorious days ahead. Imagine, on a Saturday yet to be announced, perhaps our movement's three month anniversary on December 17, in every #OCCUPY in the world, we reclaim the streets for a weekend of triumphant hilarity and joyous revelry.

    We dance like we've never danced before and invite the world to join us.

    Then we clean up, scale back and most of us go indoors while the die-hards hold the camps. We use the winter to brainstorm, network, build momentum so that we may emerge rejuvenated with fresh tactics, philosophies, and a myriad projects ready to rumble next Spring.

    Whatever we do, let's keep our revolutionary spirit alive … let's never stop living without dead time.


    •  Thanks (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Claudius Bombarnac, Joncleir

      I was making a play on "the king is dead, long live the king" thing. Oh well. I think bringing up tactics of non-violence vs some stronger stuff was taken a bit too hard by everyone. I wasn't advocating any of that--just mentioning that, at some point, something like that has to be talked about. For example, boycotts are a form of violence if you really think about it. Many people would be put out of work, would lose health insurance and so on. The current movement is inconveniencing businesses and citizens in many ways--where to we draw the lines? Here everything seems to be in black or white, no sense of nuance or sophistication.

      People here are stunningly conformist--makes me worry if any of them ever take power.

      •  I understood your word play. I also understand (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        banger

        that the possibility of violence is a very real threat. We need look no further than the protests in the UK and EU.

        The "enemy" is global and has been at work for over 4 decades. Look at the Global South - they've been "occupying" unnoticed for decades.

        Here's just one of many in the last year:
        Brutal Repression in Honduras Targets Teachers, Popular Resistance

        OWS in the US and Canada are a very recent phenomena.

        The 1% have gone global - they no longer fly any flag. Reforms will no longer work at an individual national level.

        OWS MUST get "thicker" and go global or it will fail. This means joining with the traditional "enemies" of the DKos bunch. We have managed to bridge the Muslim/Christian gap and join arms in solidarity. The same must be done within America.

        Here everything seems to be in black or white, no sense of nuance or sophistication.

        Yep. I used to think that lack of nuance was a right wing trait. I've since learned that it afflicts both sides.
        •  Excellent, I agree with all your points (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Claudius Bombarnac

          Particularly the globalization of the elites. I was particularly influenced some years ago by Christopher Lasch's book The Revolt of the Elites. He had it right. Only quibble is that it is really the .1% that actually constitute the elite.

          •  It's true about the .1% but that doesn't phrase (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            banger

            well.

            Truth be told, up until about 2-3 decades ago, many of the current OWS people were part of the global "Elite". In fact, we in the global north got very rich from the very policies that we are now getting a taste of.

      •  Your logic fails here (0+ / 0-)

        Boycotts are not violence, by any stretch of the imagination.
        Losing your job is not violence. Losing your health care is not violence.
        Get a grip.

        You will never know what it’s like to work on a farm until your hands are raw, just so people can have fresh marijuana. Jack Handey

        by skohayes on Tue Nov 15, 2011 at 05:09:14 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  As a Canadian I can tell you that losing (0+ / 0-)

          health care is violence.

          Lack of healthcare causes death to hundreds of thousands of people in the US every year despite it's huge GDP.

          What greater violence can you do to a person than kill him? (Yes, we in Canada consider that a form of homicide.)

          •  Sorry (0+ / 0-)

            Words mean things.

            1. Behavior involving physical force intended to hurt, damage, or kill someone or something.
            2. Strength of emotion or an unpleasant or destructive natural force.

            You will never know what it’s like to work on a farm until your hands are raw, just so people can have fresh marijuana. Jack Handey

            by skohayes on Wed Nov 16, 2011 at 03:54:23 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  Words mean many things. You are using the (0+ / 0-)

              word in a minimalist sense.

              The importance of the concepts of disaster, catastrophe, violence,

              Background

              Several terms in the scientific literature about post traumatic stress disorder are used with different meanings in studies conducted by different authors. Words such as trauma, violence, catastrophe, disaster and barbarism are often used vaguely or confusingly, and their meanings change
              ...

              Violence

              Violence may be initially understood according to a minimalist concept (violence as violentia), which is restricted to an act that should meet three conditions: deliberate attitude of the perpetrator, physical force, and destructive intent. Episodic violence corresponds to this concept and is characterized by the fact that it is direct and perpetrated fast and intermittently as an acute insult to a person's well being by means of a dramatic form of violence.

              On the other side, the comprehensive concept (violence as violentia) includes psychic and subjective elements and stresses the victim's perspective. Its standard form is structural violence, an indirect form of violence whose norms are established socially and that is defined as a chronic insult to well being that kills or harms people slowly by continuous deprivation of basic human needs [22,23].

              •  But we aren't talking about (0+ / 0-)

                PTSD in a clinical setting. We're talking about the Occupy movement.

                You will never know what it’s like to work on a farm until your hands are raw, just so people can have fresh marijuana. Jack Handey

                by skohayes on Thu Nov 17, 2011 at 03:29:26 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  You obviously did not read the link I supplied (0+ / 0-)

                  I chose it because it had a description of the meaning of the word violence in the sense it was used in this diary.

                  I assumed you would take the trouble to look at the link instead of dismissing it offhand.

                  Footnote references:

                  22.  Buffachi V. Two concepts of violence. Political Studies Review. 2005;3:193–204.
                  doi: 10.1111/j.1478-9299.2005.00023.x.

                  [Note: article requires subscription]

                  The report I linked continues:

                  An example of a comprehensive concept of violence is found in the definition by the World Health Organization (WHO): "Violence is the intentional use of physical force or power, threatened or real, against oneself, another person, or against a group or community, that either results in or has a high likelihood of resulting in injury, death, psychological harm, maldevelopment, or deprivation" [24]. According to the WHO topology, violence may be self-directed, interpersonal or collective, and perpetrated by means of physical, sexual or psychological attacks, deprivation or neglect.

                  The WHO definition validates the concept of violence as an international, and not only local, problem, and prescribes the protection of vulnerable populations. However, the incorporation of the notion of intention adds complexity to this concept because intention is not always identifiable in a violent act [25]. The restriction of this concept to its intentional-actional aspect reduces the chances of considering the merely psychological dimension of some acts of violence, and invalidates the understanding that there are aggressive attitudes that lack a fully violent character [26].

                  The depth and breadth of the WHO definition are adequate to that organization's purposes, which require an ecological model of violence centered on multiple levels. However, when the breadth of what is denoted in a term expands, its descriptive power is retracted [27]. A comprehensive definition expands the use of the term "violence" to situations that result from economic poverty, social alienation, or political repression.

                  BTW, I can assure you that many families and people would suffer PTSD after having to fight for years for health care in the US and then losing everything in the end.

                  Your response is a good example of having a narrow mindset.

    •  I could sign up @ADbusters and post a blog (0+ / 0-)

      Right?

      FDR 9-23-33, "If we cannot do this one way, we will do it another way. But do it we will.

      by Roger Fox on Tue Nov 15, 2011 at 04:59:46 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Sure you can. But you can't sign on as (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Roger Fox

        Culture Jammers HQ unless you get more involved with ADbusters.

        Here's the post that started it all. Notice the blogger(s).

        http://www.adbusters.org/...

        Is America Ripe for a Tahrir Moment

        Hey you rebels, radicals and utopian dreamers out there,

        Our call to #OCCUPYWALLSTREET on September 17 shook up a tsunami of spontaneous enthusiasm. Jammers from all over the nation (and a few Canadians!) have sent word that they will be there. Meanwhile various activist organizers have realized the potential of this event, rolled up their sleeves and gotten to work. While some techies have teamed up to build an indie open source website for organizing carpools to the event (occupywallst.org), others are thinking through the logistics of feeding everyone and defending the first days of the occupation. Through it all, a deluge of solidarity messages have been pouring in from Spain, Egypt and elsewhere.

        Will you be there?
        ...
        Are you with us? Bring a tent.

        for the wild,
        Culture Jammers HQ

        [Heh heh, heh... What most 'Merkins don't realize is that us Canucks are intending in taking over the US and subjecting it to the indignity of greater banking controls and Universal Healthcare.]

  •  Ron Paul......Seriously? (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    allergywoman, skohayes, kurt

    The dude is a Republican.  He doesn't have a progressive bone in his body.  

    Why in the world would anyone in the 99% be interested in following the rhetoric, the fantasies or the dogma of Ron Paul?  He also produced Rand Paul.....Yuck!

    •  "reach out to.... the followers of Ron Paul (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      banger

      who are also opposed to the emergent police state and the oligarchical set-up."

      Why in the world would anyone in the 99% be interested in following the rhetoric, the fantasies or the dogma of Ron Paul?  He also produced Rand Paul.....Yuck!

      Nothing in this diary that says he wants to follow Ron Paul.

      If OWS really is the 99% then it has to accommodate the Ron Pauler's and the Tea Baggers. We have more in common than we have differences despite what the media would like to portray.

      The name of the game is "divide and conquer" and "keep the peasants fighting amongst themselves". This tactic is as old as empires because it works!

      •  RP and his supporters are opposed to ALL GOVT (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        kurt

        Its black and white for them "Govt = Bad, Taxes (no matter on who) = Bad".

        We want a working democracy. We have maybe one or two things in common with Paul supporters. We have far more differences.

      •  No, he said (0+ / 0-)

        we should form an alliance with him, for some odd reason. He has nothing to offer, because most of his supporters would cut their own throats before they'd vote for Obama.

        You will never know what it’s like to work on a farm until your hands are raw, just so people can have fresh marijuana. Jack Handey

        by skohayes on Tue Nov 15, 2011 at 05:10:57 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  I took it to be an alliance with the people who (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          kurt

          follow RP - not RP as a political party.

          I also want an alliance with the Tea Baggers - the members not their leaders. OWS needs their participation to succeed.

          BTW, I do not appreciate or want the Democratic Party to take ownership of OWS. They are part of the problem, not the solution. That would destroy it.

          I also don't want DKos to take ownership. OWS is not a political organization.

    •  Anti-war, pro-civil liberties (0+ / 0-)

      unlike most Democrats. Sorry but that's a fact. The rest of his views, I don't agree with.

      •  He is not pro-civil liberties, he is (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        skohayes, kurt

        anti-government, and even there he can not consistent, as he would outlaw abortion. Some liberty.

        I am baking for Occupy DC, if you'd like to help, click here to see how!

        by Something the Dog Said on Tue Nov 15, 2011 at 03:25:28 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  You are mainly wrong (0+ / 0-)

          One of his advisers is Bruce Fein who many including Glen Greenwald consider one of our most consistent and ardent advocates of civil liberites. However you are right about abortion, but it isn't because he's an authoritarian, rather it is because he and many others believe that a fetus is a person--we ought to have a little more compassion for that point of view and not demonize it. I think it's mistaken but it's understandable and doesn't make RP less of a civil libertarian in my view.

          •  It's a Republican view (0+ / 0-)

            and completely antithetical to libertarian beliefs.
            Do you support completely dismantling our social safety net?

            You will never know what it’s like to work on a farm until your hands are raw, just so people can have fresh marijuana. Jack Handey

            by skohayes on Tue Nov 15, 2011 at 05:15:23 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

  •  Never give in to violence (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    kurt

    We may not ever get there oh my sisters and brothers, but always we must try.  And never give in to violence.  As Gandhi said, "It is perfectly true that they used brute force and that it is possible for us to do likewise, but by using similar means we can get only the same thing that they got. You will admit that we do not want that."

    •  that's a good point (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Claudius Bombarnac, Joncleir

      but Gandhi was fortunate to be in a country occupied by the British who had a history of rule-of-law and certain moral imperatives that counteracted, on occasion, their sense of tribalism--they were a much more civilized society than when they first invaded India. Gandhi's tactics would not have worked in Nazi Germany or Stalinist Russia or Iraq under Saddam. Am I wrong? Hasn't anybody thought about this?

      The question is are we going to continue as a moral society? I think that's a legit question--it sure seems to me we are going in the opposite direction. Having said that would you consider the Catonville Nine violent? Was I advocating bringing AK-47s to a demonstration? The reaction to this diary says a lot about this community. I am being villified, it seems to me, without anyone giving me any benefit of the doubt--I am a heretic and should be burned at the stake. God help us if this is what progressives are about.l

      •  RP was against the Civil Rights bill.. wtf?!?! (0+ / 0-)

        I seriously think you have no idea what you are talking about. When I say Ron Paul is a hard right bible thumpin southern racists I am serious. We want nothing to do with him.

        And peaceful protest has worked under authoritarian regimes. That is all I am going to say about that. If OWS turns violent than kiss it goodbye. Leadership is starting to emerge, this is not your mom and dads movement, this is a very different one. We have the advantage of instantaneous communication. Let it evolve over time.

        You are not being vilified, its just that you really don't know what you are talking about. If I had to guess, I would say you are in your early 20s.

  •  Le plus ca change -- Oy Vey ! (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Claudius Bombarnac, banger, Joncleir, kurt

    OK ... I'm what's called a "Red Snowsuit Baby" ...  A  Red Diaper Baby had CPUSA parents, and her/his first word was probably "Meeting."

    A Red Diaper Baby had professional, bourgeois-identified parents, but his/her GRANDPARENTS were  "1905 Revolutionaries."

    So, I kindo remember "the Sixties''(most of which took place in the '70s) enthusiasm for communes, collectives, co-ops, committee and suchlike that were to evolve into a cashless Alternative Economy and Social Contract.  It was Utopia ... and (silly me) I actually tried to live there.

    At least I learned "Utopia is a direction, not a destination."

    The thing I really, really, really like about this bunch of youthful world changers (the Occupy movment) is that they have NOT bought into the "Never Trust Anyone Over 30" rubric that seemed so obviously compelling and true   ( for example) the SDS, while it was still a committee of correspondence.

    I'm pretty sure there are some older, more experienced and historically wider-read participants in Occupy to counterbalance the Circle Drumming Mystics  and Whole Planet Ecological Vegan purists.

    And meanwhile, everyone banger included gets to have their say ... subject to the "to discover if you are a leader or not, look behind you to see if anyone is following" rule.

    So ... I genuinely TRUST Occupy ... though I haven't the slightest idea where the movement will be going come Spring.  I only know, it will be going somewhere -- which is more than I can say for the Democratic Party.

  •  Ron Paul called MLK a "Philandering Communist" (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    skohayes

    And called MLK day "Hate Whitey Day". That is actually one of the least offensive things he has said.

  •  Three words: Cool story, bro. (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    815Sox, skohayes, Lucy Montrose

    Two words: This sucked.
    One word: HR.

    15 years old and fighting like hell to make a difference, Tomorrowsprogressives.com

    by TomorrowsProgressives on Tue Nov 15, 2011 at 05:04:41 PM PST

  •  Yep, that's right. Focus on ourselves. (0+ / 0-)

    Not the world. Not on making our society fairer. We can't do that anyway; because we can't change other people, we can only change ourselves. Let us scale back and take baby steps, changing the one thing we have control over. Maybe if we try harder and not be so loud and uppity, those policemen will leave us alone. Maybe if we make ourselves better corporate cheerleaders, one of those 1 percent will gift us with a halfway decent job. Ahhhh, now doesn't that feel better?

    Real Democrats don't abandon the middle class. --John Kerry

    by Lucy Montrose on Wed Nov 16, 2011 at 05:00:15 PM PST

  •  Banger..... (0+ / 0-)

    It's Thanksgiving.....how about giving it a rest?  Occupy is NOT over.  You've only seen the first phase.....more to come.  Much more.

    Happy Thanksgiving, Banger.

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