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It takes a special form of neocon to miss the point, and when points need missing, William Kristol is your man.

But it’s also worth noting that pissing has a distinguished place in American military history.

I suppose that is why barracks have heads?

He then goes on.

Patton later recalled: “I drove to the Rhine River and went across on the pontoon bridge. I stopped in the middle to take a piss and then picked up some dirt on the far side in emulation of William the Conqueror.

Did you know he was not alone?

Churchill had long dreamed of urinating on Hitler’s much-vaunted Siegfried Line to show his contempt for Hitler and Nazism. Unlike Patton, Churchill forbade photographs of the occasion.

Does the idiot William spot the difference?

Nope, he goes straight into whine mode.

Maybe, our current civilian leaders should spend a little less time posturing and a little more time supporting the troops who’ve been sent abroad to fight at the direction of their administration.

He must have mislaid his pompoms and forgotten his cheer-leading days?

As for the act itself.

Indeed, the foolishness of these few young Marines is as nothing compared with the foolishness of Obama administration officials.

Foolish? The video taping was foolish, the act itself, abhorrent.

Neither Patton nor Churchill urinated on the nearest German bodies.

You want to know why this event occurred William, it is because of  blood soaked fools like you insisting on perpetual war and the incessant rotation of the troops into your goddamned mess.

The blame lies with those troops that did the deed, but it lies more heavily on the shoulders of those that ramped up the lies that put them in that situation  in the first place.

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  •  Tip Jar. Arm chair thugs. (205+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Horace Boothroyd III, Danise94, MTmofo, The grouch, DerAmi, Bush Bites, DiegoUK, buddabelly, luckylizard, nuclear winter solstice, Clive all hat no horse Rodeo, anodnhajo, paul2port, eeff, followyourbliss, nupstateny, hannah, DRo, mofembot, valadon, French Imp, gramofsam1, OleHippieChick, Portlaw, NBBooks, Actbriniel, exterris, Sprinkles, lostinamerica, Superskepticalman, glendaw271, MKSinSA, AaronBa, annieli, shortgirl, hlsmlane, not4morewars, Texknight, howabout, googie, ruleoflaw, Yellow Canary, BoiseBlue, qannabbos, blue aardvark, plf515, citizen dan, DSC on the Plateau, kerflooey, Russ Jarmusch, strangedemocracy, Empower Ink, murrayewv, CT yanqui, Hamlets Father, SpecialKinFlag, TexDem, Ed in Montana, Karl Rover, Don Enrique, rudewarrior, mamamedusa, zbob, onceasgt, NJpeach, filkertom, dougymi, Debs2, JML9999, Loudoun County Dem, Wintermute, Polly Syllabic, avsp, maryabein, zukesgirl64, davidkc, quaoar, DBunn, WheninRome, revsue, sherlyle, Shotput8, David54, S F Hippie, randallt, verdeo, rantsposition, ramara, TomP, porchdog1961, zerelda, Anthony Page aka SecondComing, MartyM, Lefty Ladig, frankzappatista, gatorcog, sawgrass727, SottoVoce, Keone Michaels, CTMET, Paul Ferguson, Tamar, dotsright, Knucklehead, middleagedhousewife, Rogneid, fallina7, emal, Osiris, kazoo of the north, tofumagoo, sidnora, ontheleftcoast, Matt Z, MaryinHammondsport, WinSmith, tin woodswoman, n8rboy, gwilson, esquimaux, Azazello, carver, Temmoku, Jennifer Clare, opinionated, fixxit, rja, leftist vegetarian patriot, hoof32, Bionic, bythesea, snoopydawg, cpresley, implicate order, freesia, CA Nana, RJDixon74135, krllos, msmacgyver, rapala, Dingodude, shesaid, ChemBob, deep, RickMassimo, Johnny Nucleo, Its a New Day, maybeeso in michigan, RubDMC, millwood, Pam from Calif, kevinpdx, Hedwig, Fe, Gary Norton, eru, Amor Y Risa, Ecclesiastaverbs, maggiejean, StellaRay, anastasia p, BMarshall, Calamity Jean, petulans, McMeier, SueM1121, Rumarhazzit, UncleCharlie, DavidMS, frisco, Crazy Moderate, fumie, Nica24, blueoasis, Bluesee, glattonfolly, skohayes, StratCat, Observerinvancouver, Habitat Vic, jeanette0605, gfv6800, Lensy, The Harry, DebtorsPrison, Plox, tommyfocus2003, Moderation, RonV, Cintimcmomma, ATFILLINOIS, begone, Kayakbiker, sostos, magnetics, science nerd, bluicebank, gr8trtl, Siri, Unitary Moonbat, Supavash, Paulie200, elliott, coolbreeze, splashy

    "Another world is not only possible, she is on her way. On a quiet day, I can hear her breathing." Arundhati Roy

    by LaFeminista on Sat Jan 14, 2012 at 01:21:25 AM PST

    •  Kristol is dirt. (0+ / 0-)

      It is hard to view him with the compassion, which is in fact due from us, towards all of our fellow inhabitants of this planet.

      The hungry judges soon the sentence sign, And wretches hang, that jurymen may dine.

      by magnetics on Sat Jan 14, 2012 at 04:23:54 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  Humans killing other humans is a day at the park (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    scorpiorising, hmi, UncleCharlie

    but when four guys piss on a couple of dead bodies, the entire world comes unhinged? No one really cares, other than for the video evidence. Too bad for the four marines that they were dumb enough to let that happen. I am not impressed.

  •  Where's Irving Kristol's grave? (12+ / 0-)

    I need to take a leak.

    If Obama doesn't deserve credit for getting Bin Laden because he didn't pull the trigger, then Bin Laden doesn't deserve the blame for 9-11 because he didn't fly the planes.

    by Bush Bites on Sat Jan 14, 2012 at 02:12:11 AM PST

  •  The actions of these Marines who (29+ / 0-)

    have committed this crime are disgusting. But having read so many comments by Americans that there is no problem with these actions is heart breaking.

    This better be good. Because it is not going away.

    by DerAmi on Sat Jan 14, 2012 at 02:19:07 AM PST

    •  Some Humans Aint Human (7+ / 0-)

      -Jonn Prine

      This better be good. Because it is not going away.

      by DerAmi on Sat Jan 14, 2012 at 02:24:12 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  It is heartbreaking to me that (0+ / 0-)

      our reality about war can turn on a dime with the airing of a 15 second video clip. Were we really that far out of touch before the video?  

    •  What's a worse crime is killing Afghanistans... (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      esquimaux, Fe

      in a war that should have been over before it began.

      •  Meaning the Taliban should have (0+ / 0-)

        surrendered bin Laden immediately?

        In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice; but in practice, there always is a difference. - Yogi Berra En théorie, il n'ya aucune différence entre théorie et pratique, mais en pratique, il ya toujours une différence. - Yogi Berra

        by blue aardvark on Sat Jan 14, 2012 at 05:49:41 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  So you think this war was and is worth it? (0+ / 0-)

          I'm sure you were first to sign up.

          •  Yeah of course (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Tamar, msmacgyver, Johnny Nucleo

            That's the only possible question.

            Maybe if Bush hadn't let bin Laden go at Tora Bora we might be having a slightly different conversation about whether or not the war was worth the two dozen or so US casualties incurred at that point in time.

            In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice; but in practice, there always is a difference. - Yogi Berra En théorie, il n'ya aucune différence entre théorie et pratique, mais en pratique, il ya toujours une différence. - Yogi Berra

            by blue aardvark on Sat Jan 14, 2012 at 06:08:26 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  Either you support war as a means (0+ / 0-)

              of solving our crisis, or you don't. I for one, want this country to reform its foreign and domestic policy so that the terrorists won't think of a reason to attack us.

              •  That's nice in theory, harder in practice (0+ / 0-)

                But given the fact of the 9-11 attacks, and the Taliban not turning bin Laden over, war was pretty much inevitable.

                In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice; but in practice, there always is a difference. - Yogi Berra En théorie, il n'ya aucune différence entre théorie et pratique, mais en pratique, il ya toujours une différence. - Yogi Berra

                by blue aardvark on Sat Jan 14, 2012 at 09:58:30 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  We need a change in leadership... (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Claudius Bombarnac

                  from the point of view in which war is inevitable, to finding the alternatives to war at all times. I don't see how killing Bin Laden has made us "safer". War makes people hate us. Killing civilians makes people hate us. When will we wise up to this?

                  •  I can easily see how killing bin Laden (0+ / 0-)

                    made not only Americans but 99% of the world's population safer.

                    In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice; but in practice, there always is a difference. - Yogi Berra En théorie, il n'ya aucune différence entre théorie et pratique, mais en pratique, il ya toujours une différence. - Yogi Berra

                    by blue aardvark on Sat Jan 14, 2012 at 11:29:48 AM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Except the civilians of course (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      Claudius Bombarnac

                      that we are killing in Afghanistan and with our drones in three different countries.

                      •  Which relates to killing bin Laden how? (0+ / 0-)

                        In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice; but in practice, there always is a difference. - Yogi Berra En théorie, il n'ya aucune différence entre théorie et pratique, mais en pratique, il ya toujours une différence. - Yogi Berra

                        by blue aardvark on Sat Jan 14, 2012 at 12:05:47 PM PST

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  Which relates to how the world is safer (1+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          Claudius Bombarnac

                          as we expand war with our drones?

                          •  So all wars are exactly the same? (0+ / 0-)

                            We didn't go into Iraq after bin Laden, and we aren't blasting people from drones to get bin Laden either. That's defeating the Taliban, which is something else Bush could have taken care of in 2003 if he hadn't been so hot and bothered about Saddam.

                            In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice; but in practice, there always is a difference. - Yogi Berra En théorie, il n'ya aucune différence entre théorie et pratique, mais en pratique, il ya toujours une différence. - Yogi Berra

                            by blue aardvark on Sat Jan 14, 2012 at 05:23:27 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  The casus belli for ALL those acts was/is (0+ / 0-)

                            rooted in Bin Laden's attack on 9/11. Without the attack, none of those actions could have been justified.

                            America is no longer killing al Qaeda or Taliban in Afghanistan. They are now mainly fighting Pashtun insurgents who want the Americans out of their country.

                            As history shows, the invaders may have the watches, but the Pashtuns have the time.

                    •  How many innocents have now been killed (0+ / 0-)

                      in going after Bin Laden and al Qaeda using massive military might in Iraq and Afghanistan since 9/11? How many Americans have died or have been permanently maimed? What has been the cost? What will be the legacy?

                      Neither the US nor the rest of the world has been made safer by America's ill-conceived and senseless response to 9/11.

                      The only training the 9/11 perpetrators got in Afghanistan under Bin Laden was in box cutting. The real training occurred in Pakistan, Germany and the US. Bin Laden was not the mastermind.

                      •  If you think Iraq was related to bin Laden (0+ / 0-)

                        you are alone in that opinion on Daily Kos.

                        In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice; but in practice, there always is a difference. - Yogi Berra En théorie, il n'ya aucune différence entre théorie et pratique, mais en pratique, il ya toujours une différence. - Yogi Berra

                        by blue aardvark on Sat Jan 14, 2012 at 03:13:57 PM PST

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  It was Bush that related Bin Laden & Al Qaeda (0+ / 0-)

                          to Iraq - not me. 80% of you Americans fell for it and were fired up to go into Iraq to kick some ass for 9/11.

                          Most of us Canadians knew that was false well before the invasion of Iraq because our media did not lie to us.

                          Even as late as May 2007, Bush was still lying.

                          Bush uses bin Laden to defend Iraq war policy

                          May 23, 2007

                          President Bush used declassified intelligence about Osama bin Laden Wednesday to defend his Iraq war policy.

                          During a commencement address at the Coast Guard Academy, the president mentioned declassified intelligence that said bin Laden discussed sending a top lieutenant in 2005 to Iraq to set up a base from which to launch attacks in the United States.

                          Where were you when this shit went down?

                          Saddam Hussein and al-Qaeda link allegations

                          Saddam Hussein and al-Qaeda link allegations were made by U.S. Government officials who claimed that a highly secretive relationship existed between former Iraqi President Saddam Hussein and the radical Islamist militant organization Al-Qaeda from 1992 to 2003, specifically through a series of meetings reportedly involving the Iraqi Intelligence Service (IIS).[1] In the lead up to the Iraq War, U.S. President George W. Bush alleged that Iraqi President Saddam Hussein and militant group al-Qaeda might conspire to launch terrorist attacks on the United States,[2] basing the administration's rationale for war, in part, on this allegation and others.

                          •  So Bush is a liar and many Americans were (0+ / 0-)

                            fooled. How does that mean we should not have gone into Afghanistan after bin Laden?

                            In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice; but in practice, there always is a difference. - Yogi Berra En théorie, il n'ya aucune différence entre théorie et pratique, mais en pratique, il ya toujours une différence. - Yogi Berra

                            by blue aardvark on Sat Jan 14, 2012 at 05:48:32 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  To attack and bomb an entire country for the (0+ / 0-)

                            crimes of a few is illegal under international law. The US response to 9/11 was grotesque and only served to increase hatred for the US around the world. Bin Laden and his cohorts could have been killed or neutralized without going to war with twp countries that had nothing to do with 9/11. In retrospect, it appears that Bin Laden was only the justification for the wars that killed, maimed and displaced millions.

                            Don't give me that shiite about the US going into Afghanistan to protect the women and children. That's a load of bull. Conditions there are now much worse than before the US invaded.

                            Is America safer now that Bin Laden is dead? Can you now revoke the Patriot Act and FISA? How about dismantling the Orwellian militarized Homeland Security? If anything, these agencies have become even more pervasive since Bin Laden's death. America's response to 9/11 did a thousand times more harm to the American people than Bin Laden did.

                            BTW, September Eleventh Families for Peaceful Tomorrows understands this.

                            Peaceful Tomorrows Reflects on the 10th Anniversary of Attacks

                            From that humility might have grown compassion. Not just for the ones we lost but for others who have experienced, and continue to experience, loss as the result of terrorism, violence and war. Innocent families in Afghanistan and Iraq who have lost loved ones to the military response to 9/11. Members of the military who have died in combat or to suicide as a result of their deployments. Families displaced from their communities as the result of political strife. Muslim-Americans subjected to bias and violence. Americans suffering from job loss and economic dislocation caused by the cost of war and rising military budgets. And all of us, suffering as the result of abandoning the rule of law and the Constitution, which remain the true sources of our security.

                            Ultimately, from that compassion might have grown wisdom. Seen beyond the anger, the cries for retribution and endless war, the lesson of 9/11 might be that we live in a connected world. That we have a shared destiny, even with those we fear or hate. That we rise or fall together, the rich, the poor, those with everything to live for and those with nothing left to lose. As Rev. Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr., said, “Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere.” On this 10th anniversary of September 11th, let us honor those we lost by recognizing our kinship with people all over the world whose faces mirror those of our mothers, our fathers and our children. Let us recover the sense of unity we experienced in the days after 9/11. And let us remember and return to the uniquely American values and principles that will guarantee peaceful tomorrows for everyone.

                            The video of the marines is symbolic of the US MIC - Pissing on the world to advance it's geo-strategic interests.

                          •  By that logic we can't ever fight (0+ / 0-)

                            any wars, because you can always say that the rulers are "a few" and that bombing / invading a country are "the crimes of the few".

                            In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice; but in practice, there always is a difference. - Yogi Berra En théorie, il n'ya aucune différence entre théorie et pratique, mais en pratique, il ya toujours une différence. - Yogi Berra

                            by blue aardvark on Sat Jan 14, 2012 at 08:06:50 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Yep. Wars should be a last resort. Unfortunately (0+ / 0-)

                            the US responds militarily to every threat, even those just perceived.

                            Here's an interesting report written about the US entering into war against Afghanistan with it's use of "Shock and Awe" heavy bombing mainly designed to terrorize the populace. Notice the date.

                            U.S. Military Response is Wrong -- And It Won't Work

                            by Stephen Zunes
                            October 12, 2001

                            THE magnitude of the initial U.S. airstrikes in Afghanistan raises legal, moral and practical questions.

                            The use of military force for self-defense is legitimate under international law. Military retaliation is not.

                            The use of heavy bombers against a country with few hard targets belies the Bush administration's claim that the attacks are not against the people of Afghanistan.
                            ...
                            Al-Qaida is a decentralized network of underground terrorist cells operating throughout Central Asia, the Middle East and North Africa. It does not have much in the way of tangible targets that can be struck as if the United States were at war with a government. To target Afghanistan seems to be more an act of catharsis than a rational strategy to enhance U.S. security.

                            If there is any logic to bin Laden's madness, it is his hope that the United States will overreact militarily, creating an anti-American backlash in the region, which would play right into his hands. This may very well happen.
                            ...

                            BTW, the US is the only country in the world I know of that has wars on concepts - War on Poverty, War on Drugs, War on Terrorism. The fact that none of them have ever been successful should tell us something.

            •  Posted without comment (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Claudius Bombarnac

              When someone is impatient and says, "I haven't got all day," I always wonder, How can that be? How can you not have all day? George Carlin

              by msmacgyver on Sat Jan 14, 2012 at 10:08:59 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

      •  Hell yeah to that (5+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        maryabein, mkor7, Rogneid, Tamar, skohayes

        This damn war has to stop.  And no war with Iran.  I am sickened by the war mongering I am already hearing.  Iran is pissed that one of their scientists was assassinated and they should be.  What gives the US or Israel the right to do that!

        "The real wealth of a nation consists of the contributions of its people and nature." -- Rianne Eisler

        by noofsh on Sat Jan 14, 2012 at 06:37:27 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

  •  "Armchair thugs" (15+ / 0-)

    In the case of Kristol, I actually prefer that he not "defend" me.  I wouldn't want to risk the lives of the real soldiers who might have had to rely on him.  I certainly cannot see him standing his ground when things got tense, let alone bloody.  

    No, an armchair is exactly the right place for that soft little chickenhawk.  Now, if someone could just take away his megaphone and typewriter/keyboard....

    -7.62, -7.28 "Hold fast to dreams, for if dreams die, life is a broken winged bird that cannot fly." -Langston Hughes

    by luckylizard on Sat Jan 14, 2012 at 02:52:34 AM PST

  •  Poupon You, Kristol Pisstol .nt (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    DSC on the Plateau, skohayes

    "All people are born alike - except Republicans and Democrats" - Groucho Marx

    by GrumpyOldGeek on Sat Jan 14, 2012 at 02:55:21 AM PST

  •  Kristol is a publicist (7+ / 0-)

    Subscriptions to his rag cover less than half the costs of publishing it, and his advocacy has long been transparently for rent.

    2010: An Unforced Error Odyssey

    by Minerva on Sat Jan 14, 2012 at 03:38:31 AM PST

  •  People like Kristol and Coulter (18+ / 0-)

    are "first responders".  Their job is to get out there and make the event of the day, whether it be murder, torture, or something as disgusting and vile as what these soldiers did that caused the uproar into something natural and normal that "liberals" just don't get because they don't support the military and they are not the party of patriotism.


    The religious fanatics didn't buy the republican party because it was virtuous, they bought it because it was for sale

    by nupstateny on Sat Jan 14, 2012 at 03:40:27 AM PST

    •  But their primary job is self-promotion. nt (0+ / 0-)

      If, in our efforts to win, we become as dishonest as our opponents on the right, we don't deserve to triumph.

      by Tamar on Sat Jan 14, 2012 at 08:39:47 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  And this is how these "first responders" (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      skohayes

      support the troops.

      These responses are to be interpreted as Patriotic by the Rightwing arm chair chickenhawks, Dittoheads and Foxbots.

      When someone is impatient and says, "I haven't got all day," I always wonder, How can that be? How can you not have all day? George Carlin

      by msmacgyver on Sat Jan 14, 2012 at 10:14:19 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  Bill Kristol.... (8+ / 0-)

    ....is one of the most cowardly and despicable people alive.

  •  Someone should piss on him (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    DSC on the Plateau, Matt Z

    “If you think I can be bought for five thousand dollars, I'm offended." Rick Perry.

    by Paleo on Sat Jan 14, 2012 at 05:06:08 AM PST

  •  I wouldn't.... (0+ / 0-)

    if his teeth were on fire.

    bring your own petard.

  •  Your goddamned mess (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    SwedishJewfish

    I read this as 'your goddamned madness' and I immediately pictured a vortex that sucks in impressionable young people and spits them out the other side with their brains scrambled too.

  •  My. God. (10+ / 0-)

    This is one of those news stories that I've avoided. There are some things that I just don't want to know so I actively avoid topics about them.

    To know that there are people who are not only horrified by such things, but actually defend them as though it's so much silliness....

    I think that's what I dislike the most about these things. That there's not a general consensus that it's beyond the pale. In other words, people like Kristol make me lose faith in humanity.

    P.S. I am not a crackpot.

    by BoiseBlue on Sat Jan 14, 2012 at 05:33:43 AM PST

    •  You will likely lose your faith in humanity (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      msmacgyver

      eventually. I wish that weren't true, but there's just not that much good in us as a species. Hold fast to your faith in ideals, though. They are all that make being human worthwhile.

      My country, right or wrong; if right, to be kept right; and if wrong, to be set right.
      --Carl Schurz, remarks in the Senate, February 29, 1872

      by leftist vegetarian patriot on Sat Jan 14, 2012 at 09:08:53 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  You know what's worse than having your body (5+ / 0-)

    pissed on after your dead? Being shot and killed. Bring the troops home now!. Stop killing folks overseas. Stop putting our troops in harms way!

  •  Kristol of course misses the point (23+ / 0-)

    But you didn't address it either, so I shall.

    An army must be disciplined. Because an army consists of heavily armed young men, and millennia of experience teaches that heavily armed young men act like so many thugs unless discipline is paramount.

    Criticizing those Marines for pissing on the bodies is not a sissy response that fails to take into account that war is hell; said criticism is ultimately rooted in the knowledge that war brings out a side of humanity best kept under lock and key, and you don't want to let the beast off the leash.

    In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice; but in practice, there always is a difference. - Yogi Berra En théorie, il n'ya aucune différence entre théorie et pratique, mais en pratique, il ya toujours une différence. - Yogi Berra

    by blue aardvark on Sat Jan 14, 2012 at 05:47:31 AM PST

    •  Kristol is a neocon POS (0+ / 0-)

      He's the sort that got us into Iraq and the sort that will now push for a war with Iran. Beware of what you hearing in the media.  There is some big time war mongering going on and I suspect that our CIA working with Israel is making matters worse with assassinations.

      "The real wealth of a nation consists of the contributions of its people and nature." -- Rianne Eisler

      by noofsh on Sat Jan 14, 2012 at 06:38:56 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  In Iran? (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        sherlyle, SwedishJewfish, carver

        I agree Mossad may have something to do with the assassination of nuclear scientists - but my second guess would be Saudi Arabia. The Sunni do not want there to be a Shia bomb.

        In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice; but in practice, there always is a difference. - Yogi Berra En théorie, il n'ya aucune différence entre théorie et pratique, mais en pratique, il ya toujours une différence. - Yogi Berra

        by blue aardvark on Sat Jan 14, 2012 at 06:53:07 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  Our CIA is not working with Israel. (0+ / 0-)

        I don't believe in such assumptions. I think our CIA is being made a scapegoat. They deserve better.

        "Corruptio Optimi Pessima" (Corruption of the best is the worst)

        by zenox on Sat Jan 14, 2012 at 07:24:40 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  have no idea whether they're working with Israel (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          rja

          or not, but I don't feel all that sorry for the CIA since 1) CIA agents were among the big torture proponents (in contrast to the FBI), and 2) the CIA is heavily involved in the drone attacks.
          My guess is that there are plenty of good people, people with integrity, working in the CIA (in fact, I know someone like that), but overall the CIA has earned its rather unpleasant reputation. Think: Shah of Iran; Allende in Chili, renditions, secret prisons.
          I think we need a CIA but what we need is an agency truly devoted to collecting intelligence as widely as possible and analyzing it as objectively as possible. Limit the CIA to that purpose, keep its intelligence gathering within Constitutional limits and make sure there's real judicial oversight, and I would support it wholeheartedly.

          If, in our efforts to win, we become as dishonest as our opponents on the right, we don't deserve to triumph.

          by Tamar on Sat Jan 14, 2012 at 08:59:01 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  I agree with what you are saying (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            carver

            ...but I think the CIA too has been targeted, used and manipulated by forces that benefit from the trashing of its reputation. Because anytime CIA is made into a scapegoat, America's reputation also suffers. The recent Iranian claim of America being guilty of the assasination of the nuclear scientist, for example. There simply is not enough evidence in existence to assert such claim but Iran does that basing it on a knee jerk assumption (or God knows what else). I am very suspicious about the claims that our CIA is responsible with the assasination of this scientist.

            Here is my gut feeling: There are forces who pretend to be Americans/CIA, who operate under the guise while having no real connection to it. As a result, they stay in the dark while America's reputaion is trashed, in addition to America being tricked and forced into wars that are not to its benefit or best interest.

            I am, have been, waking up to this fact since Valerie Plame was outed by Cheney and the neocons for telling the truth.

            So, I will not be too quick to buying every "news" info blaming CIA for this and that.

            I will wait instead for facts to surface befor passing my judgment.

            "Corruptio Optimi Pessima" (Corruption of the best is the worst)

            by zenox on Sat Jan 14, 2012 at 09:29:26 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  Buried deep in the archives ... (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              zenox

              of America's intelligence services are aseries of memos,written during the last years of President George W. Bush's administration, that describe how Israeli Mossad officers recruited operatives belonging to the [Sunni] terrorist group Jundallah[literally meaning Soldiers of God‎), also known as People's Resistance Movement of Iran (PRMI)]
              by passing themselves off as American agents. According to two U.S. intelligence officials, the Israelis, flush with American dollars and toting U.S. passports, posed as CIA officers in recruiting Jundallah operatives -- what is commonly referred to as a "false flag" operation.
              The group Jundallah is a Sunni organization violently at odds with the Iranian Shi'ite government.  The Jundallah would be easy to recruit if they were receiving money, arms and techniques to use against  their nemesis – the Iranian government.
              Given a state of hostility it's a reasonable action to recruit the enemies of your enemies to act as your surrogates where you can't operate openly.  But, why would Mossad use a “false flag” posing as CIA agents?  Could it be that when the shit hits the fan it won't get on them.

              The only shame in ignorance is when one takes pride in it. .......{- 8.25 / -5.64}

              by carver on Sat Jan 14, 2012 at 09:59:27 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  I read that on the news yesterday (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                carver

                ..and naturally was disturbed by it. And now, as we speak, msnbc has this online:

                Iran claims "evidence of CIA linked intelligence"

                To me this smells all the way to the heavens. Here is an excerpt from the article:

                "We have reliable documents and evidence that this terrorist act was planned, guided and supported by the CIA," the Iranian foreign ministry said in a letter handed to the Swiss ambassador in Tehran, state TV reported.

                "The documents clearly show that this terrorist act was carried out with the direct involvement of CIA-linked agents," it added.

                Here is the issue: With this kind of "news," Iran's mullahs are able to turn the people of Iran against America which helps to convince/persuade them into a possible war with America.

                Next we will start seeing angry demonstrators on Iranian streets, maybe some attacking to American targets and businesses while infusing religion and emotion into the brew.

                Next, from this side of the ocean, FoxTV will get into the gear and start showing "angry black bearded muslims" threatning USA (if not already): Red alert! Moooslims are coming! On and on, our media will start its war language, turning up the hate and fear mongering barometer while the "ayatollahs" would be doing their part from their side.

                There we see how a "war" is being manifactured. It is done from both sides of the isle, not one.

                Who killed the scientist?

                Whoever wants a war between US and Iran.

                Period.

                Our CIA involved? I STRONGLY doubt it. I rather believe they have been victimized by certain "CIA linked agents" who were good at constructing "evidence."

                It is high time our (real) CIA takes this matter in its hands.

                It is high time.

                "Corruptio Optimi Pessima" (Corruption of the best is the worst)

                by zenox on Sat Jan 14, 2012 at 11:20:48 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

    •  Kristol "I Dont Get It. I Pay Women To Piss On Me" (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Matt Z
      ...but it's cool, because I get comped

      There’s always free cheddar in a mousetrap, baby

      by bernardpliers on Sat Jan 14, 2012 at 08:10:48 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  but please change to "heavily armed young people" (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      blue aardvark, skohayes

      or "heavily armed men and women" since women are about 15% of our active duty military now.
      http://www.womensmemorial.org/...
      However, if you meant to single out young men as the ones acting like thugs, you could say "because our army consists mainly of heavily armed young men."
      Not to be nitpicking, since I think your main point was good, but just to take into account the sacrifices made by women in the military in recent years.

      If, in our efforts to win, we become as dishonest as our opponents on the right, we don't deserve to triumph.

      by Tamar on Sat Jan 14, 2012 at 08:49:33 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  I think that frontline combat troops (4+ / 0-)

        are still 100% male. But I acknowledge that women do get into harm's way, and as seen at Abu Ghraib, can commit atrocities.

        In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice; but in practice, there always is a difference. - Yogi Berra En théorie, il n'ya aucune différence entre théorie et pratique, mais en pratique, il ya toujours une différence. - Yogi Berra

        by blue aardvark on Sat Jan 14, 2012 at 08:53:50 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  supposedly the combat troops are 100% male, (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          blue aardvark, msmacgyver, skohayes

          but I think I've read that the line is blurred -- that it's hard to separate combat from support when both are in areas under attack and have to fight back.
          And both men and women in the military are "heavily armed."
          And as you point out, there are young women who get sucked into the climate of abuse of others just like young men are.

          If, in our efforts to win, we become as dishonest as our opponents on the right, we don't deserve to triumph.

          by Tamar on Sat Jan 14, 2012 at 09:14:44 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

  •  If Kristol really wanted to support the troops (11+ / 0-)

    he would

    1) Leave the Republican party because Democrats support our troops and veterans. Republicans? Not so much

    2) Condemn, as strongly as possible, the acts of a few louts, since those acts place all other US soldiers at greater risk.

    3) Stop comparing shmucks to Patton and Churchill, each of whom had their problems, but neither of whom was remotely dense enough to commit acts that put their soldiers at greater risk to no purpose whatsoever.

    Democrats want us to share a dream. Republicans want us to fear a nightmare. I'm for dreams.

    by plf515 on Sat Jan 14, 2012 at 05:56:12 AM PST

  •  This is why the Afghan war should stop now! (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    marykk, flavor411

    And we should not attack Iran. This is what happens when a nation's mind set is to be in perpetual war.  Enough already!

    "The real wealth of a nation consists of the contributions of its people and nature." -- Rianne Eisler

    by noofsh on Sat Jan 14, 2012 at 06:35:12 AM PST

  •  I wish I could say "Only William Kristol..." (2+ / 0-)

    ... would try to foment an air of nobility about pissing on an enemy's dead body.

    Unfortunately, there seem to be a number of folks who've surfaced over the past few days, ready to defend the desecration of corpses.

    I am very much of the theory that humanity is one tribe, and we are all of the same family... but some don't get invited over for the holidays, y'know?

    -----
    Tom Smith Online
    Music In Every Style... Except Dull
    I want a leader who shoots for the moon. The last time we had one, we got to the moon.

    by filkertom on Sat Jan 14, 2012 at 06:50:21 AM PST

  •  Look how Kristol lies and twists the truth: (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    sidnora, rja, msmacgyver, skohayes
    Maybe, our current civilian leaders should spend a little less time posturing and a little more time supporting the troops who’ve been sent abroad to fight at the direction of their administration.

    (Emphasis is mine)

    Do you see how Kristol twists the facts and tries to put the blame on the current administration?

    A monstrous lie?

    Yes. But again. That's what Kristol is about. Don't look for anything in that bag of scum that is called William Kristol. It is full of lies and deception.

    % 100

    "Corruptio Optimi Pessima" (Corruption of the best is the worst)

    by zenox on Sat Jan 14, 2012 at 07:19:20 AM PST

  •  So according to little Billy K (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Matt Z

    It will be OK to piss on Cheney's grave. Cool.

    "Nonviolent in the face of police brutality." Scott Olsen's email signature

    by BOHICA on Sat Jan 14, 2012 at 07:37:36 AM PST

  •  I will grant a measure of slack to the troops (4+ / 0-)

    who are over there in the war, in reality, which we all agree is "hell" as to whether what those particular soldiers did was foolish or abhorrent, or both.
    I haven't been over there, so I'm not going to judge except to say it was at least foolish.
    Taking a video was extremely stupid and abhorrent.
    William Kristol is not defending the soldiers, he's simply finding another weak excuse to insult the President.

    If I had a chance to piss on William Kristol, I wouldn't, no matter how much he deserved it. Character is a concept he can't understand, and he's one of those on the right who would rail against moral relativism if the subject came up.  

  •  It's inhmane to piss on a corpse (6+ / 0-)

    But quite human to turn a person into a corpse.

    I give up.

    Effective activism requires Activists -- Effecting radical change demands Radicals

    by Anthony Page aka SecondComing on Sat Jan 14, 2012 at 08:01:26 AM PST

    •  I think the point here was not that it's ok (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      skohayes

      to kill, but in these terrible situations, behaving in this vicious and disrespectful way makes things even worse.
      I think it's pretty clear that our lengthy presence in Afghanistan is pointless and we should get out.
      I would hope that the negotiations with elements of the Taliban (since it turns out that not all Taliban are what we think of as Taliban) would help make that happen.
      Incidents like this make it harder to work with them.

      If, in our efforts to win, we become as dishonest as our opponents on the right, we don't deserve to triumph.

      by Tamar on Sat Jan 14, 2012 at 09:10:50 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  When Discipline Is This Lax, Civilians Get Killed (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    esquimaux, Tamar, ORDem, LaFeminista

    And the whole idea of a long term counter-insurgency is a farce.

    There’s always free cheddar in a mousetrap, baby

    by bernardpliers on Sat Jan 14, 2012 at 08:11:52 AM PST

  •  Why not mutilate corpses? (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Ms Citizen

    In the Spanish Civil War the Fascists cut penises off
    and stuck them in the mouths of enemy corpses.  And maybe they weren't even dead.
    I hope these Marines get VERY long sentences.

    So why HASN'T Bill Kristol been waterboarded?

  •  Kristol is a "drip!" (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    LaFeminista

    Just a little drip of you know what.  Lil' Billy Kristol is not even heavy duty enough to be called an "asshole" or even a "doofus!"

    Bill Kristol is just a little drip off the penis of God.  Just a drip!  Pay no attention to the drips, they will fall off and dry up in due course.

  •  Bill, your degradation is showing (4+ / 0-)

    Great diary. T&R

    You nailed it with this

    Neither Patton nor Churchill urinated on the nearest German bodies.
    A perfect refutation in one sentence of this quack's twisted logic. I've no doubt that both those gentlemen would have found such disrespect, toward Nazis, Taliban or any other human being, to be thoroughly ugly and disgraceful. And taping it to be just plain fool-hardy.

    thanks

    Wakeful people make better democracy. Anybody else want some coffee?

    by Hammerhand on Sat Jan 14, 2012 at 08:43:05 AM PST

  •  this was difficult to tip & rec, but I did anyways (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    LaFeminista

    Those soldier had a real duty to understand the bigger picture, and they failed miserably. The point of fighting wars is to end them, not to keep them running forever, and Loesch, Kristol, the videographer, and the grunts do not buy into that proposition at all.

    I normally tip & rec, hoping to give the general topic more oxygen. Even though I really wish this would all go away, the subject matter needs air, as the stink is intolerable.

    Whoever has 97.1 FM in St. Louis ought to have their licence yanked by the FCC. If advocacy of corpse pissing does not qualifying as broadcasting that is not in the public interest, nothing does.

  •  Surely Bill Kristol served in Vietnam (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    LaFeminista

    Wait... what?

  •  JIC it's not been mentioned... (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    LaFeminista

    ...he's a creepy lookin' em-effer also.

    Jeez.

    "Sell 'crazy' someplace else, we're all stocked up here." -Melvin Udall

    by hoof32 on Sat Jan 14, 2012 at 09:13:52 AM PST

  •  Um, no. I don't blame Kristol. (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    thestructureguy

    I blame our government for wasting our time and money over there for ten fucking years, for treating the Afghani people like shit for that entire time, and for causing so little outrage about that, that the way our soldiers treat corpses seems more important than the fact that they are KILLING people!

    Of course I understand the optics and don't condone what they did. I've been told it's illegal under the UCMJ. Fine. Punish them under it. But I think it's really callous that people in our country care more about how our soldiers treat DEAD people in Afghanistan than how they treat living people. And I think if they really cared about this issue, they'd demand the war end now and our troops begin moving out TOMORROW.

    After all, if our soldiers hadn't been there, this couldn't have happened. And thousands of Afghanis wouldn't have been maimed and killed by us.

    "This is about the human heart, and if that sounds corny, so be it." -- Keith Olbermann // Go ahead, buy my husband's art. I dare you. http://www.etsy.com/shop/Windthin?ref=ss_profile

    by allergywoman on Sat Jan 14, 2012 at 09:15:55 AM PST

    •  Without the cheerleading, the whole would (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      allergywoman

      have been so much harder to justify.

      Torture, dishonor, denigration, the cheer leaders need to carry a portion of blame

      "Another world is not only possible, she is on her way. On a quiet day, I can hear her breathing." Arundhati Roy

      by LaFeminista on Sat Jan 14, 2012 at 02:09:07 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  A time honored tradition of desecrating enemy (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    LaFeminista

    bodies.  The thing is that it's being caught on video these days.  Remember what was done to the bodies in Fallujah or in Somalia?   Countless other examples exist and it's not limited to one side.  The Marines will be punished as well as their commanders and we will suffer retaliation. However, it will continue in this war and others.  The broader issue is the reason we go to war and why we are still fighting it. Soldiers in war do things like this.  It's part of the hell that war is.  We have to ask is the war worth putting our soldiers in situations where acts like this will be committed.  

    Rick Perry is George Bush without brains.

    by thestructureguy on Sat Jan 14, 2012 at 09:28:35 AM PST

  •  kinda like Trotsky, much unlike his son (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    LaFeminista
    You have to know one big thing and stick with it. The leaders who had one very big idea and one very big commitment. This permitted them to create something. Those are the ones who leave a legacy.
    Irving Kristol

    Präsidentenelf-maßschach; Warning-Some Snark Above"Nous sommes un groupuscule" (-9.50; -7.03) "Sciant terra viam monstrare."

    by annieli on Sat Jan 14, 2012 at 09:41:57 AM PST

  •  Kristol a apologist for imperialist war. Period (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    LaFeminista

    This trivializes the war into who can p!$$ the farthest. This is what the Afghan intervention debate comes down to?  Can anyone think of something, make a mockery of something even more vile so we can go lower in this little obscenity? Maybe a reality cable TV show?

               Let's hear it one more time, "winning hearts and minds".  Most people posting on this event have no idea how this is registering in the country among the ordinary people and the men and women in Afghanistan. Afghans may not have high tech weapons, they may not have all sorts of communications gear, nightscopes, missiles and aircraft but they have their pride and dignity.

               They fought three western countries, England, Russia, now  America for nearly 200 years non stop and never ever quit. Now some yobbos take their last shred of dignity away when they are truly defenseless and publicize it to mock them in their own country?

    What was done there is a "never forget, never forgive" situation. And the Kristols and those throwing clever quips and jeers about this entire sorry episode have no clue how this plays over there.....none.

           This was a trophy kill. Listen to the video. This was a souvenir to be able to brag about killing the enemy some time later. This is what a professional army looks like, what a mercenary army looks like. These are warriors who don't respect the enemy as a human being, simply an object of derision and contempt. There but for the grace of good  luck it could be the pissers themselves lying in the dirt getting urinated on.

             History warns of blowback: Sepoy mutiny in India, when England had hundreds of thousands of native Indian tribesman as soldiers handling muskets and firearms and making up a big proportion of their army. In 1857, the word got out the cartridges were greased with the fat of a pig, and the soldiers had to handle the papers slicked to reload. Being as they were Hindu and Muslim, and the pig is an unclean animal in their religions it caused rioting and a lot of trouble. There were revolts and mutinies. Many English and colonial troops died. A column of 16,000 men from Afghanistan retreated to India, went to the Khyber Pass and was destroyed down to the last 2 civilians only ones surviving.

           The English empire was in trouble from Afghanistan to Sudan in Africa and everywhere in between. That was their zenith, they never got beyond that point in expanding or holding their conquests as the British Empire.

             The outrage here is when a Muslim dies as these tribesmen whatever their affiliation was did in battle or of natural causes, they are supposed to have their bodies cleaned and wrapped and buried within one day. It is a last respect not to have them rotting in the street or abused in any way. This little act of abuse and mockery just put a huge target on everybody regardless of their job or duties in these areas of conflict. Maybe this will force the issue and sever the endless patrolling and do overs and games being played in that unhappy place. The only positive out of it.

    If you think that you and a bunch of other people can just show up on Wall St, camp out and have any effect whatsoever.... well, you will be run off in 20 minutes., you will leave town having wasted your effort 6/18/11.

    by BeeDeeS on Sat Jan 14, 2012 at 09:55:54 AM PST

  •  Yeah, I Wonder How Kristol Would React If (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    LaFeminista

    Someone killed his wife and then pissed in her face.  He'd never stop being a victim.

    This aggression will not stand, man.

    by kaleidescope on Sat Jan 14, 2012 at 09:58:20 AM PST

  •  Kristol: apologist for atrocities. (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    LaFeminista
  •  I prefer Tbogg's formulation (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    LaFeminista, skohayes, gr8trtl

    that "William Kristol is made of concentrated anus".

    Herman [Cain] makes my arse wanna dip snuff. ~ Pinto Pony

    by MeMeMeMeMe on Sat Jan 14, 2012 at 11:19:47 AM PST

  •  This cowardly immoral hawk... (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    flavor411

    never served in the military.  These people love to send others to do their dirty work.  And why do so many of these turds seem to be Harvard products?

    Why are "American Interests," when spoken of in Washington, rarely the interests of the American people?

    by djohnutk on Sat Jan 14, 2012 at 11:48:59 AM PST

  •  Rec'd for the first sentence alone (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    LaFeminista, skohayes

    I eagerly await the day when Bill Kristol will be right about something — anything. But I am not holding my breath. Seriously, any publication that runs one of his articles should head it "The following is not true."

    Take the "Can't(or)" out of Congress. Support E. Wayne Powell in Va-07. http://www.ewaynepowell.com/

    by anastasia p on Sat Jan 14, 2012 at 11:59:22 AM PST

  •  Props, esp. for last two paragraphs. nt (0+ / 0-)

    We must, indeed, all hang together, or assuredly we shall all hang separately. B. Franklin

    by Observerinvancouver on Sat Jan 14, 2012 at 02:13:59 PM PST

  •  Bill Kristol is a Chickenhawk SOB (0+ / 0-)

    As a Vietnam veteran who served honorably and who would tell Kristol to his fucking ugly face that he is full of shit and wrong beyond belief on this, I cannot believe he has the gall to write such BS and expect to be respected in the future.  That he is responsible for bringing Palin onto the world stage is, in and of itself, a travesty.  For him to say this, it is astonishingly wrong and it sickens me as an American veteran.

    What these Marines apparently did - these are war crimes and crimes against humanity - not "foolishness."  If Kristol speaks for most Neocons and many Americans then we are finished as a Western developed nation.  This is the behavior of goons, thugs, war criminals - not American Marines.  I know.  I know you SOB, Kristol, because I experienced the smell and feel of war and death.  I was in Vietnam.  Though not in combat, I felt the vile stench of war and death the minute the helicopter dropped me off onto an airfield in Bien Hoa, Vietnam in 1967.  Kristol, damn.  You have gone way beyond the pale in this comment.  You no longer can be granted the usual due respect.  

    I honestly cannot continue to comment.  I am so upset.  I just watched Don Lemon on CNN with two  Psychologists/Psychiatrists as guests addressing this war crime/this atrocity.  They essentially said they understood the behavior and they could not condemn it!  I feel that something has been lost in the US.  Something so essential to the honor of our nation.  Something that has been so deeply betrayed by people such as Kristol and these young Marines.  Remember Palin's daughter dated a kid named Jeremy Morelock who also committed war crimes in Iraq and how that was minimized b y many in the US.

    I just cannot continue to participate in this discussion.  Something essential to our core honor and dignity as a people has disappeared - died.

  •  I try not to hate... (0+ / 0-)

    but, God (or FSM), i HATE that man...

  •  So Kristol wouldn't have any problems if it were.. (0+ / 0-)

    soldiers from the other side similarly desecrating the bodies of fallen American troops?  

    He wouldn't have a problem if an enemy decided to urinate on the bodies of his loved ones (if he happens to actually have any) and then proceeded to post internet pictures of themselves in the act?

    There's a reason there are rules--and laws.  There's sometimes a very thin line between civilization and barbarism.  The line gets thinner when people like Kristol don't seem to even know the difference between the two.

  •  The act was foolish and bit stupid, but... (0+ / 0-)

    Thep defense of h act was absolutely f....King insane. William, oh William, you are half as smrt as your father an three times as obnoxious.

    Please take your Murdoch funded ralg and bury it next tomhe more reputable News of the World, which  obviously should not be read as an endorsement of a putrid rag as that.

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