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Last night Occupy Oakland held a FTP march.  FTP stands for F**k the Police.  Mass Media characterized the march as consisting of 75 people meandering through the streets of Oakland.  This not only misstates facts, it substantially misses the march's significance and new tactic it revealed.

While the march started in the city center with about 150 people, instead of staying downtown it moved into areas not normally visited by outsiders, parts of West Oakland.  Allow me to meander.  West Oakland is probably the oldest or near oldest neighborhood of Oakland.  It borders the ports.  Ports have always been important to Oakland.  Before there were bridges, and before Los Angeles became a major city, Oakland was the terminus for nearly all shipping coming to America from the far east and all freight for California.  The workers lived here. But West Oakland became impoverished.  And the area became largely Afro-American.  In the 1960s, it was the birthplace of the Black Panthers.  The neighborhood is still largely impoverished and black.  

To a keen or even not so keen observer of last night's march, its import and significance of was (a) its peacefulness and (b) the encouragement it received from the residents of West Oakland.  Many feared that, seeing what they'd be shown and being told what they'd been told, that this march was sure to lead to a violent confrontation.  It did not.  But that these fearful perceptions are themselves ill founded was also proved last night.  The ability of Occupy Oakland to act peacefully and forcefully was shown. Instead, the peacefulness shows what always been true.  In nearly every incident it has been the police who have caused violence, not Occupy.  From the initial violent tear down of the encampment, to the violent use of various projectiles in response to ensuing protests, to unlawful kettling and mass arrests, the city appears to have been singularly invested in using brute force as the means of quelling what it facially acknowledges are issues of health and safety and perhaps inconvenience. But if these are its true concerns, it appears such responses are wildly disproportionate and inexplicable.  The City never appears to have even undertaken to question why these responses are rational in light of the highly protected rights of speech and assembly involved and they should differ from the usual response to concerns of health, safety and convenience: requests to desist and, if necessary, citations to appear in court.  Not arrest.  To be frank, the city's response appears to be almost of the reactive lizard brain variety, by people of power who feel they have had their authority challenged but who lack the imagination and/or flexibility to deal with challenging issues and proper responses when confronted with them.  The march last night proved the peacefulness of movement and its intent to avoid  confrontation of the police at the same time as it insists its message be heard.

More importantly, the march appeared to receive enthusiastic response from the residents of West Oakland as it moved through the neighborhood.  People came out of their homes and tenements and shouted the march on, joining in the chants.  And this points up a crucial fact: there is much support among Oakland's citizens in protesting perceived unfairness generally, but Oakland police activity specifically.  Some have attacked the movement for focusing on police conduct and not wealth disparity.  But the two issues are not truly separate.  Indeed, they are intertwined. The City's reaction to the expression of legitimate concerns of wealth disparity has been the reaction of the 1%: repression and brutalization and no change.  Why has this concern met with such disproportionate force?  The way the City and OPD have responded reflects in a very physical and plain fashion the way our country has reacted to the concerns of the 99%--ignoring them and displaying a rather complete inability to deal with the issue rationally.  In emphasizing the OPD's reaction to the protest, Occupy Oakland is seeking to compel the City and Country to respond to a broad category of issues and concerns involving wealth disparity in a new and more effective manner.  And to respect the right to have them heard at all, since we have very limited alternative meaningful means, and in a new and bold fashion. Moreover, marching into the areas of the most harmed not only potentially gets their residents interested and involved, it protects the movement.  There seems to be a very small chance that the police will use excessive force in the open and invite already angry, sympathetic  residents out into the street in this neighborhood.  They will be equally unlikely to kettle occupy protestors for mass arrest in West Oakland.  Moving into the areas of the already dispossessed and abused gains supporters and moves the movement forward.

The Occupy movement says we are in a new era, and need new, different and better responses to legitimate concerns long ignored, suppressed and unattended to. As in all societies at all times, a sustainable peace can only arise from meaningful action in response to the expression of legitimate concerns.

Originally posted to Publius2008 on Sun Feb 05, 2012 at 04:35 PM PST.

Also republished by Occupy Wall Street and Systems Thinking.

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  •  Tip Jar (285+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    marigold, Bob Love, antooo, slatsg, ruleoflaw, crystal eyes, Mr Robert, camlbacker, leonard145b, GAS, Dalarna, DamselleFly, Leo in NJ, qannabbos, PrometheusUnbound, gooderservice, elwior, MsGrin, dkmich, awcomeon, old wobbly, Mentatmark, dopper0189, whoknu, ceebee7, detroitmechworks, kevinpdx, farmerchuck, markdd, Mayfly, artisan, Canis Aureus, Marie, zerelda, Gowrie Gal, trumpeter, John Kelly, ladywithafan, begone, One Pissed Off Liberal, myboo, BMarshall, KenBee, susanWAstate, Angie in WA State, mookins, Zorge, LSmith, psnyder, highprincipleswork, bnasley, tofumagoo, 1Nic Ven, Mighty Ike, Horace Boothroyd III, Preston S, Cofcos, Damnit Janet, Gilmore, Thinking Fella, TheMeansAreTheEnd, petulans, GeorgeXVIII, markthshark, SouthernLiberalinMD, ichibon, antirove, Evolutionary, wu ming, Emerson, maybeeso in michigan, Creosote, socalmonk, bablhous, TBug, AoT, Setsuna Mudo, joanil, SanFernandoValleyMom, asterkitty, AgavePup, triplepoint, revsue, stargaze, shopkeeper, blueoasis, BYw, orson, pioneer111, Jake Williams, Odysseus, dharmafarmer, timewarp, JimWilson, desordre remplir, rapala, blueoregon, Floande, ChocolateChris, hlsmlane, jck, RebeccaG, salmo, Josiah Bartlett, Tay, cotterperson, Debs2, fumie, ladypockt, JClarkPDX, Just Bob, CanYouBeAngryAndStillDream, Jimdotz, Yellow Canary, Ebby, Sam Hill, rantsposition, bread, socal altvibe, vigilant meerkat, joanneleon, Ozzie, Trotskyrepublican, pat bunny, defluxion10, Alumbrados, mahakali overdrive, david graeber, dirkster42, strangedemocracy, Statusquomustgo, kaliope, where4art, mjfgates, glitterscale, Lorikeet, Libby Shaw, David54, sawgrass727, Turbonerd, WheninRome, dotsright, Involuntary Exile, Angela Quattrano, Regina in a Sears Kit House, ItsaMathJoke, Lonely Texan, wblynch, greengemini, DBunn, An Affirming Flame, Sean X, YellerDog, Seneca Doane, greycat, Sanctimonious, pixxer, Sandino, porchdog1961, joe wobblie, peptabysmal, koNko, marina, jayden, grollen, DiegoUK, Liberal Thinking, ColoTim, BusyinCA, uciguy30, ActivistGuy, Funkygal, Lefty Coaster, deha, Celtic Merlin, Broke And Unemployed, Matt Z, crystalboy, YaNevaNo, haremoor, angelajean, bkamr, dear occupant, emal, LeislerNYC, MrJayTee, eeff, Nance, isabelle hayes, felix19, JayC, Eric Twocents, Clive all hat no horse Rodeo, sunny skies, Nowhere Man, IreGyre, kitebro, Steven D, Raggedy Ann, DebtorsPrison, mofembot, freeport beach PA, peternight, theKgirls, GenXangster, OleHippieChick, GDbot, caul, Ice Blue, DRo, BlueDragon, WhizKid331, martini, Lily O Lady, Kinak, GoGoGoEverton, dlemex, lostinamerica, Shadowmage36, drdana, exNYinTX, howabout, anyname, IL clb, semiot, LynChi, J M F, On The Bus, mntleo2, smellybeast, enhydra lutris, greenbastard, Crabby Abbey, MKinTN, roses, Amber6541, lonelyutahdem15, CT yanqui, BlueInARedState, nominalize, DruidQueen, The Hindsight Times, jasan, LOrion, gatorcog, tegrat, mikeconwell, LaughingPlanet, tidalwave1, buckstop, maf1029, bunsk, cloudbustingkid, Dirtandiron, Akonitum, fiddlingnero, sostos, LillithMc, seefleur, madgranny, Renee, MinistryOfTruth, middleagedhousewife, Shockwave, opinionated, Raven Song, prettygirlxoxoxo, kjoftherock, Greyhound, gulfgal98, rogerdaddy, pfiore8, elengul, GrannyOPhilly, Johnathan Ivan, No one gets out alive, Iron Spider, BobBlueMass, TheSpectator, Simian, cville townie, Glen The Plumber, a2nite, Noddy, splashy

    Greed's self-regulation is collapse. So is delusion's.

    by Publius2008 on Sun Feb 05, 2012 at 04:35:46 PM PST

    •  I, for one, am SHARING, everywhere... (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      AoT, Iron Spider, Evolutionary

      Oh, very well said, I was so worried about this march after the catastrophe of last weekend and violence of last FTP march.

      This goes to fb, google+, digg, and off to Huffpo, MSNBC and CURRENT.

      There is the added benefit of being more fun.. 'meandering' through neighborhoods with drums, chants and posters to keep the city of Oakland.  .and any other place it occurs ..HINT HINT rest of US ...aware that Occupy is far from done, just because tents are gone. Carry the message, chant the dream, keep it up cuz the MSM is trying so hard to bury it all.

      I also saw on fb a response from OWS NYC DA WG. will post in separate comment below.

      We are the 99% ... we will be heard.

      by LOrion on Mon Feb 06, 2012 at 08:39:01 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Here from OWS NYC DA WG.. to OccupyOakland (7+ / 0-)

        'From Occupy Wall Street...
        Dear Occupy Oakland,
         We, the direct action working group of Occupy Wall Street, condemn the wholly unacceptable and morally repulsive wave of repression against the Oakland Commune initiated by Oakland’s mayor Quan and stand in firm solidarity with you, our comrades. Quan and Oakland’s cops have waged open warfare on you, and we draw great inspiration from your brave and creative responses.
         We see through the state’s obvious attempt to divide activists over diversity of tactics. Though we are using different maps, we are all walking the same path. We find the state and its representatives (Quan, for example) attempts to tell us what this struggle is for and how we wage it to be laughable and ridiculous. We have no more interest in the opinions of Mayor Quan than we have in the inanity of Billionaire Bloomberg.
         We call on all occupations to stand in solidarity with our comrades in the Oakland Commune.
         Solidarity and Rage,
        Direct Action Working Group of Occupy Wall Street
        Yesterday at 7:19pm'

        We are the 99% ... we will be heard.

        by LOrion on Mon Feb 06, 2012 at 08:39:58 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

  •  This will all just blow over as soon as... (11+ / 0-)

    Mitt Romney promises a Swiss Bank account for all Americans.

  •  " F*ck The Police" is NOT non violent (28+ / 0-)

    Just saying. It disrespects and thus does violence from its name. I love OWS, and showed up Nov 5th, but I am strict on the non violence. OWS has a powerful positive message - "people matter more than profit" - which is nowhere to be seen when you decide to demonize. The 1% send vandals to yell such things for a reason. You just supported the fat cats.

    •  If the goal is to minimize the movement's appeal (21+ / 0-)

      this is a great tactic.

      The bitter truth of deep inequality has been disguised by an era of cheap imported goods and the anyone-can-make-it celebrity myth - Polly Toynbee

      by fladem on Sun Feb 05, 2012 at 05:16:10 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Of course (8+ / 0-)

        ...invoking the Black Panthers and FTP will have great appeal to middle America.  I'm sure the media will cover these marches with care and fairness.

        This tactic isn't brilliant...it's fucking brilliant.

        Obama 2012 http://whatthefuckhasobamadonesofar.com/

        by jiffypop on Sun Feb 05, 2012 at 05:36:25 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  Maybe it's something in the water. (13+ / 0-)

        OO just always seems so...off to me. Maybe it's that I don't live there. Maybe it reflects the local mindset. Who knows.

        Real talk: I just always feel nervous whenever OO is mentioned. For me, OO is like your volatile relative who you are always afraid will do just the wrong thing at the most crucial moment and fuck things up for the whole family. There's just always this...fear, for me, that they'll do something that casts the movement in a bad light. We can't trust the media to report accurately even in the best of circumstances. But OO makes me nervous in a way I don't feel with any other occupy group.

        Just being honest.

        I've become re-radicalized. Thanks a lot you bunch of oligarchical fascist sons-of-bitches. But once again, I have no choice. Bring it the fuck on.

        by mdmslle on Sun Feb 05, 2012 at 05:57:10 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

          •  Hm. Yea. I know that. And? (11+ / 0-)

            It doesn't change how I feel. It's precisely why, in fact.

            OO is a centerpiece. Rogue police department and all. The protestors there are shaped, in part, by the OPD. And while that's understandable to an extent, you realize the risk that their actions and reactions to realities on the ground may be - how to say this - necessary but counterproductive to the growth of the movement?

            That's all I'm saying. This movement still hasn't reached critical mass. I fear that the extreme actions of OPD breed countermeasures by OO that people can't "connect with". Or worse, that OO becomes the "face" of the OWS movement.

            I've become re-radicalized. Thanks a lot you bunch of oligarchical fascist sons-of-bitches. But once again, I have no choice. Bring it the fuck on.

            by mdmslle on Sun Feb 05, 2012 at 07:21:19 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  Extreme actions? Meandering through (8+ / 0-)

              neighborhoods?

              Unapologetically pro-citizen. Not anti-corporation just very pro-citizen.

              by CanYouBeAngryAndStillDream on Sun Feb 05, 2012 at 08:02:21 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  Not only did they peacefully meander, they also (0+ / 0-)

                expressed a negative sentiment towards the 1%'s hired thugs, aka, the local police.

                If they keep this up, they might just earn a reputation for disdaining the status-quo.

                And we know how Middle America feels about the status-quo:  They absolutely love it.

                /snark

                The fear of appearing offensive or "angry" was such a wonderful tactic to neuter the "left".  Kinda like that whole racist thing about the "angry black man".

                Those tools are memes.  Of the 1%.

                I'm happy to see OO, and other Occupy groups, rejecting those memes and expressing themselves without the knee-jerk fear of appearing "radical" or "dangerous".

                The only danger is the psychopathic predator class.

                It isn't that Obama hasn't Changed anything; It's that his actions advance the 1%'s interests.

                by Johnathan Ivan on Mon Feb 06, 2012 at 11:42:28 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

            •  except for the little problem that is (15+ / 0-)

              the majority of the protesters arrested are not FROM oakland.

              i, too, am made very uncomfortable by oo.  it seems like the message in oakland has been usurped by the little group of extremist anarchists and black bloc-ers from s.f.

              even the diaries about oo are showing huge drop off in participation.  the faux outrage over faux "beatings" are not helping.

              this entire oo situation is very distracting from the real message of ows - and, if continued in the following direction (FTP), it will lose support nationwide and will harm the ows movement.

              even the oo site has serious disagreement about what is happening there.  i've been to the hellaoccupy site several times and am pleased to see more people objecting to the violent extremists on the part of the protesters side starting to speak out.

              last nite, one of the people there apologized to the news crew whose truck had a bottle of urine thrown at it.  another news van had a board thrown at it.  the young man asked to apologize and did so on camera.  

              kudos to him for saying those actions do not represent the rest of those who are protesting... now for more to do so - especially on this site!

              EdriesShop is currently reloading! More to come in the next few days! - Is GlowNZ back yet?

              by edrie on Sun Feb 05, 2012 at 10:29:48 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  Thanks edrie (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                rcnewton, Caipirinha

                And I want to thank you for some of your other comments too.

                Happy just to be alive

                by exlrrp on Mon Feb 06, 2012 at 05:36:19 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

              •  This is wrong about where the protesters are from (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Renee

                The majority of protesters are from Oakland, the majority charged were not.  That's 12 people out of 400.

                There revolution will not be televised. But it will be blogged, a lot. Probably more so than is necessary.

                by AoT on Mon Feb 06, 2012 at 09:19:07 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

              •  I'm sorry you're "uncomfortable" with (5+ / 0-)

                OO. I'm not sorry authorities are uncomfortable with OO though. Nor am I sorry that West Oakland is more comfortable with OO than they are with the police.

                I'm always comfortable participating with OO because everytime I do I see how it is an organic grouping of people that respond to the environment they're in-like all local manifestations of OWS. It is not some clandestine group "usurped" by Black Bloc, Paulites, Masons, renegade PTA denizens, devil-worshippers, or any other bogey men/women.

                Before the successful General Strike & the later West Coast Port Shutdown concerned people were "uncomfortable" with OO, and they still are...and that's okay. It goes with the territory.

                Atlatl Cauac...Jatz'om K'uh.

                by catilinus on Mon Feb 06, 2012 at 09:34:32 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

              •  Bravo for the person who apologized to (0+ / 0-)

                the corporate media for a urine-filled bottle being hurled at one of their assets.

                I'd like to ask folks to reflect on the headaches the Occupy movement has been for the 1%.  

                Perhaps a larger apology is called for.

                I'm not advocating vandalism.. but neither do I think making nice with the corporate media will result in anything beneficial.

                It's like making nice with the predator class - it will never change their behavior.

                They trashed our economy, outsourced our jobs, impoverished millions, and deny food, housing, and medical care to millions more.

                And we're worried about a urine filled bottle being hurled at one of their elements of control (media)?

                I have respect for the real media - Amy Goodman, for example.  The Corporate Communications that masks itself as "media" can go fuck itself.

                It isn't that Obama hasn't Changed anything; It's that his actions advance the 1%'s interests.

                by Johnathan Ivan on Mon Feb 06, 2012 at 11:48:31 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

          •  I live here. I agree the police are rotten. (5+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            elwior, exlrrp, caul, rcnewton, LucyandByron

            Verbal beatings will continue until their morale improves?

            •  the sad thing is that the current method is (7+ / 0-)

              not helping.  it isn't solving the real issues of the opd.  i live in the bay area, too - across the bay from oakland - but have been there often and worked there a number of years ago.

              solutions are needed, not blind confrontation as is happening now.  i wish those who start FTP marches would do more to try to make things improve instead of trying to provoke and make things worse.

              EdriesShop is currently reloading! More to come in the next few days! - Is GlowNZ back yet?

              by edrie on Sun Feb 05, 2012 at 10:31:34 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  The OPD is exceptionally resistant to change (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                LucyandByron

                And people have been working on change for decades now with little to no result.  I'm not really sure what else you want people to do.

                There revolution will not be televised. But it will be blogged, a lot. Probably more so than is necessary.

                by AoT on Mon Feb 06, 2012 at 09:20:28 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  change has happened, albeit slowl. (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Caipirinha

                  part of the real problem in oakland is the high crime rate.  oakland is still in the top ten "most dangerous cities" in the u.s.

                  when you have a police force dealing with the problems oakland has, their way of "coping" is different than the police force in places less troubled.  it is almost a ptsd issue on the part of the pd.

                  oakland has drive bys that end up with infants shot in the head, 6 yr olds killed - and the police have to deal with all this and still keep on going.  then, add to that mix some wild-eyed, ponytailed self-styled protester and they have to change gears from a battle for life and death to dealing with an idiot who thinks fighting with six police officers is "cool".

                  these are two separate worlds and realities - and neither understands the other.  the sad thing is that until there is some communication - nothing is really going to change.

                  the police dept is already under federal management due to the corruption of the oakland riders (corrupt gang of police) - and more oversight is needed.  what is ALSO needed is better pay, better training and better respect for the new officers that are TRYING to do the right thing.

                  when you have a large group of people standing and screaming in your face, that hardly makes being a police officer satisfied with the profession he's chosen.  (or she).
                  people go into policing NOT to go and "bust heads" - they enter the police force to "protect and serve" a community.  when that community has a "fuck the police/pigs" march, the police have to wonder exactly WHO are they putting their lives on the line for.  oakland lost 4 officers in 2009 in a single incident - shot by a 26 yr old during and after a traffic stop.  this is what oakland deals with - they DO put their lives on the line and, sometimes, they lose.

                  i don't condone police violence or brutality in any way - i am not excusing that - but what i've seen in the posted videos show a police force reacting to violent protesters (resisting arrest in a violent manner).  it may be a game for the protesters, but after the 2009 incident, no person actively resisting arrest is "harmless" to the opd.

                  i really wish that those who are protesting would take five minutes and try to see from the eyes on the other side of the line... just for five minutes - place themselves in the shotes of the "other".

                  EdriesShop is currently reloading! More to come in the next few days! - Is GlowNZ back yet?

                  by edrie on Mon Feb 06, 2012 at 12:14:32 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

              •  I think the answer is start firing police (0+ / 0-)

                This will get enormous resistance and will need some people at the top to at least give protection if not support but we need to fire the cops that don't play by the book.

                I love unions, but I suspect the union will fight this. Sometimes this stuff is less about the employer / employee relationship and more about actual job performance. The emphasis has to be on job performance.

                Supervision boils down to inspect what you expect and hiring is often about hiring attitude and training the skill.

                Regarding the supervision I think OO could do a great service with OOPD - get to know who the people are in the street, get pictures, videos, and seek out the good stuff - we had a great beat cop here on Piedmont Ave a few years ago. Wendy knew everyone, took time to listen, had a brain and used it. She got promoted and the job went away with the budget cuts.

                Get to know the hierarchy and watch them. We have had all sorts of outsiders telling us the OPD needs to get its act together. It hasn't happened. If it matters we need to do it ourselves.

                We are just citizens - not cops and not cop supervisors. But the most potent weapon in OWS is the camera and we need to turn that on the OPD. But I suggest doing it to find the good stuff. The bad stuff will show up all its own. Fire it.

        •  Well, there's a fainting couch somewhere (16+ / 0-)

          please find it.

          Middle America had better get with the program; they've been getting screwed for years.

          No more being nice.

          “Fair? Fare is what you pay to ride the bus. That’s the only ‘fair’ I know.” ~ Heylia James, from Weeds - 1st season

          by ozsea1 on Sun Feb 05, 2012 at 06:13:45 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Right. I don't need a fainting couch, dude. (17+ / 0-)

            And nobody "better" do anything. That's not how the world works.

            Be nice it it was. But in the real world movements grow by carrying forth a message that resonates with growing numbers of people. The occupy movement has made a great start of it, turned the national dialog, won friends and influenced people.

            But there's stil a ton of work to do, people to reach and bring on board. And if we can learn anything from komenpocalypse, it's that one bad decision, action or perception can be disasterous. OO's challenge is to "keep itself sympathetic". I think it's tough, especially given how it must feel living around OPD. The department almost brings out the crazee. I do worry about it.

            Sue me.

            I've become re-radicalized. Thanks a lot you bunch of oligarchical fascist sons-of-bitches. But once again, I have no choice. Bring it the fuck on.

            by mdmslle on Sun Feb 05, 2012 at 07:28:39 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  The corporate media knows how to deal with (5+ / 0-)

              a non-violent movement, as do the powers that be.  How does national outrage stop the OPD from killing people?  It hasn't so far, why should now be different?

              There revolution will not be televised. But it will be blogged, a lot. Probably more so than is necessary.

              by AoT on Sun Feb 05, 2012 at 07:36:36 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

            •  If it's all about your worries and concerns (2+ / 0-)

              then worry away, because the Comfortable Classes ain't seen nothin' yet.

              “Fair? Fare is what you pay to ride the bus. That’s the only ‘fair’ I know.” ~ Heylia James, from Weeds - 1st season

              by ozsea1 on Sun Feb 05, 2012 at 09:15:57 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  what kind of idiotic remark is that? (4+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                exlrrp, hooper, jennyp, rcnewton

                really - you need to chill out.  this isn't some video game you're playing out in the real world.

                EdriesShop is currently reloading! More to come in the next few days! - Is GlowNZ back yet?

                by edrie on Sun Feb 05, 2012 at 10:32:52 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  global financial chaos is drawing nearer (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Horace Boothroyd III

                  is what I meant, Really, YOU need to chill out.

                  “Fair? Fare is what you pay to ride the bus. That’s the only ‘fair’ I know.” ~ Heylia James, from Weeds - 1st season

                  by ozsea1 on Sun Feb 05, 2012 at 10:41:49 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  and, it isn't "capitalism" that is the cause - (4+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    HiKa, exlrrp, jennyp, rcnewton

                    it is financial manipulation and fraud being perpetuated on governments and individuals by corrupt people and organizations.

                    capitalism works just find - until all the regulations are removed, until illegal mergers are allowed and corrupt politicians (who are not voted out of office) are in charge.

                    communist societies do not work.  ever.  capitalism is not what we have going on globally right now - we have massive market and industry manipulation by a handful of global entities who have built their structure on illegal foundations with the assistance of the greediest, wealthiest people alive.

                    the law of supply and demand works when neither one of the two in the equation is manipulated to defraud the individual who manufactures and the one who purchases the goods.

                    EdriesShop is currently reloading! More to come in the next few days! - Is GlowNZ back yet?

                    by edrie on Sun Feb 05, 2012 at 11:07:31 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  When has capitalism "worked just fine" (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      ozsea1

                      in our history. Would really like to know that period.

                      •  asdf (2+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        edrie, ozsea1

                        Even Marx agreed that capitalism produced more goods. If the system wasn't rigged, we could distribute those goods more fairly.

                        And I would say that system works fairly decently in most of the industrialized world most of the time, even if not in the US.  Or at least you would have to explain to me why the Nordic system doesn't refute your point.

                        GOP: The Party of Acid rain, Abortion of the American Dream, and Amnesty for Wall Street.

                        by Attorney at Arms on Mon Feb 06, 2012 at 10:31:27 AM PST

                        [ Parent ]

                      •  how's that computer working for ya? (0+ / 0-)

                        and are you walking every where you go or do you enjoy one of henry ford's inventions?  

                        taken any flights lately?

                        hmmmmm - radio or tv or internet?  or, perhaps a bit of cable or dish?

                        nah, you can just tweet an answer... on which cell provider again?

                        i wonder what you'll have for dinner tonite?  fresh or prepared (i AM assuming you don'g have a garden outside your door).  

                        and, how again are you paying for that?  debit or credit?  

                        is it cold where you are?  or warm?  what are you wearing these days?  wool? polyester? rayon? silk?  and, did you make the fabric yourself or did you make your clothes yourself?   and, i forgot all about your shoes....

                        get the point yet?

                        EdriesShop is currently reloading! More to come in the next few days! - Is GlowNZ back yet?

                        by edrie on Mon Feb 06, 2012 at 11:55:01 AM PST

                        [ Parent ]

                •  People who MARCH get to decide n/t (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  ozsea1
                  •  oh, so you're saying that 99% of the population (4+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    HiKa, exlrrp, rcnewton, lcj98

                    is out there marching? or 50%.

                    nope.  you have it wrong - the majority of those who VOTE get to decide.  and if the marchers don't vote, they become irrelevant in the larger scheme of things.

                    EdriesShop is currently reloading! More to come in the next few days! - Is GlowNZ back yet?

                    by edrie on Sun Feb 05, 2012 at 11:08:32 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  And if they keep playing "street fighting man" we (2+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      rcnewton, edrie

                      all lose as voters will react to violence & confrontation negatively.  

                      OO, don't give Fox, Romney, & Rove the footage they've been waiting for.

                      •  thanks for putting this clearly and (1+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        Evolutionary

                        spelling out the obvious - but i am sadly thinking that the likes of graeber actually HOPE that happens.  these fools want nothing more than chaos.

                        the sad thing is that THEY will be the ones who pay the heaviest price if they succeed in sabotaging the election in 2012.  

                        the very rich will still be very rich and will profit off the chaos while the fools will find that little "felony" conviction will keep them from ever getting a decent job and lock them into poverty for the rest of their lives.  and that safety net the dems worked so hard to put in place will be gone.

                        how are those idiots going to feel about being homeless and old?  are those little shields going to be a heckuva lot heavier to cart around and will it provide shelter when they are living on the streets?  sometimes i wonder why i am wasting the remainder of MY life fighting to make the world better for those who don't appreciate it... then, i remember the other 98.99%  who are NOT stupid.

                        EdriesShop is currently reloading! More to come in the next few days! - Is GlowNZ back yet?

                        by edrie on Mon Feb 06, 2012 at 11:48:53 AM PST

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  aHA! funny how mr. graeber isn't out there (0+ / 0-)

                          throwing rocks and getting arrested.  typical.  he starts the "rumble" then sits back to take the credit without paying any consequences.   sounds like republican behavior to me!

                          EdriesShop is currently reloading! More to come in the next few days! - Is GlowNZ back yet?

                          by edrie on Mon Feb 06, 2012 at 11:50:11 AM PST

                          [ Parent ]

                      •  Since when has Fox or the corporate media (2+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        LucyandByron, ozsea1

                        been stopped by a "lack of footage"?

                        Did they have video of hood-glad government workers acting in the capacity of "death panels" during the healthcare debate?

                        It isn't that Obama hasn't Changed anything; It's that his actions advance the 1%'s interests.

                        by Johnathan Ivan on Mon Feb 06, 2012 at 11:52:38 AM PST

                        [ Parent ]

                •  Come the revolution..... (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  ozsea1

                  The bitter truth of deep inequality has been disguised by an era of cheap imported goods and the anyone-can-make-it celebrity myth - Polly Toynbee

                  by fladem on Mon Feb 06, 2012 at 08:50:00 AM PST

                  [ Parent ]

        •  Nothing wrong with being honest about how (45+ / 0-)

          you feel.

          Mine is only the word of one Occupier, but I personally can assure you that of the talks we have, and the actions we take, none are intended to provoke violence.  So far, the Oakland Police (and their buddies they invite to the party that don't have federal restrictions on what they can do) - have created or caused the violence.  In fact, the police have been rioting.

          Unfortunately, there are others that show up that do intend bad things.  They are a small minority, and we have been corralling them.  Not that those facts get into the news.  We have also been keeping a very sharp eye out for the "Larouchie" types and their Obama/Nazi signs.  We aren't completely helpless.  They will be surrounded, asked to leave, and if not, they will become the focus of the protest, and all Occupiers in the march or event will turn to those with the wrong message and protest them.  This is an especially important thing to do after what happened in Harlem.  Agent Provocateurs will no longer be tolerated.   I'm sure that can be taken as stifling Free Speech as well.  I shrug my shoulders and say "Okay what is your solution to being able to go out and protest and have a effect - without letting baddies be bad?".  Ideas are welcome - if constructive.

          Just what I have been hearing.  Just hearsay.  Occupy is frightening to a lot of people, but a ray of hope for so many others.  Change is frightening.  It's coming though, whether we like it or not.  Be ready.

          #OccupyOMC - "We have a permit, its called The Constitution".

          by Evolutionary on Sun Feb 05, 2012 at 06:28:59 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  This is what will legitimize the movement... (23+ / 0-)

            in the eyes of Americans.

            We aren't completely helpless.  They will be surrounded, asked to leave, and if not, they will become the focus of the protest, and all Occupiers in the march or event will turn to those with the wrong message and protest them.  This is an especially important thing to do after what happened in Harlem.  Agent Provocateurs will no longer be tolerated.

            Up till now, the anarchists have slipped in and stolen the headlines. However, using the aforementioned strategy will bring the focus back onto the Occupiers resisting violence while staying true to the message: "Equal Justice. People before profit."

            Excellent plan.

            That men do not learn very much from the lessons of history is the most important of all the lessons of history. ~ Aldous Huxley

            by markthshark on Sun Feb 05, 2012 at 06:48:39 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  Spread the word. I've heard it from a pair of (34+ / 0-)

              Zucotti Park folks, and others in Seattle, Oakland, Sacramento, and Atlanta.

              If when marching, Blac-Bloc rioters show up with their ski masks, and bats or whatever, they will be surrounded.  Anyone out there with ridiculous Obama/Nazi signs will likewise be surrounded.  No violence against them, they will just be asked to leave.  If they don't, then that day's protest will shift from the bank to the disruptors.  They will be protested and hounded.  I don't think they want to get rough with us.  There are too many like me that aren't easily roughed up.  Plenty of Veterans for Peace out there with similar intentions I have heard as well.

              Again, spread the word.  Purity isn't necessary, but making sure there isn't violence or dumb-ass behavior on our part is important.  If we are to be a society, we must police ourselves in the way that police were originally meant to function.  As peacekeepers, not thugs.  With firm conviction, not threats of pain.

              #OccupyOMC - "We have a permit, its called The Constitution".

              by Evolutionary on Sun Feb 05, 2012 at 06:57:51 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  yes that's just what we need (6+ / 0-)

                protestor-on-protestor protest.

                I am one of the initiators of Occupy Wall Street, I have never done anything to harm another human being while at a protest, and I am proud to say I have taken part in many Black Blocs. If there had been people like you around in the early days we never would have had OWS to begin with.

                Let me say you simply have no idea what you're talking about. Your advice is toxic. You are exactly what this movement doesn't need.

                This movement was started by anarchists who had taken part in Black Blocs and it was those anarchist principles that got it off the ground. The idea of a bunch of liberals now hounding us out of a movement we started is utterly disgusting.

                Go home and create your own fucking movement, don't try to take over ours and kick us out of it.

                •  so, are you saying you are one of the brick (8+ / 0-)

                  throwers?  you started fires in trash cans and dumpsters?  you don't consider "violence" to pertain to inanimate objects?

                  i really would like clarification directly from you, please.

                  and, kiddo, it AIN'T "your" movement - you keep on saying that it belongs to the 99% - and YOU don't represent even one tenth of one percent of the 99%.

                  this really sums it all up when you say,

                  The idea of a bunch of liberals now hounding us out of a movement we started is utterly disgusting.

                  Go home and create your own fucking movement, don't try to take over ours and kick us out of it.

                  doesn't it...

                  jeeeesh~  

                  EdriesShop is currently reloading! More to come in the next few days! - Is GlowNZ back yet?

                  by edrie on Sun Feb 05, 2012 at 10:38:21 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  you can't read can you? (6+ / 0-)

                    I said I've never done anything to harm another human being. Obviously I never threw a brick at anyone.

                      Though if you're curious, I tend to think of violence as a matter of hurting people

                      I'm also one of the many anarchists who argued in the beginning - long before the occupation began - that we shouldn't do property destruction, it was obviously quixotic. Not because I feel it's intrinsically wrong to damage a piece of glass that doesn't belong to you - obviously there are circumstances where that is the only moral thing to do. (Say the only way to save a child is to break through a window - obviously no one is going to say it's "violent" or "wrong" just because you don't own the window. It's hurting people that's always wrong.)

                      If you support this movement, DEAL WITH THE FACT that the people who first started it, who made up the 99% slogan, who got the idea of occupying Zuccotti Park to begin with, who developed its consensus process, were anarchists - the EXACT SAME PEOPLE who, under certain very specific circumstances when they thought it was tactically appropriate, have occasionally used targeted property damage as a tactic. They just didn't think it was a good idea to do it here.

                       If it had not been for them none of this would have happened.

                       As it happens, I think - most anarchists in New York think - this is still true in New York, it's not like we're going around damaging anything here. Oakland is a different place with a different history - they have a police force that's basically at war with communities of color, that kill people all the time, and communities in near-insurrection against the police. I'm not going to second-guess what someone facing that sort of violence does in response.

                       You need to shake some stupid stereotypes out of your head. If you want to jump on board a movement started by others, learn something about them, and show them some respect. Or please go away and go back to whatever approach you were using to get these same issues on the national agenda before this September, since I'm sure they'll be much much more effective than the ones we came up with, won't they?

                •  My sincere thanks to you for initiating OWS (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Evolutionary

                  It really is an awesome thing, to have helped to start a global movement. But having started the movement -- and especially, having started this movement -- you have to be willing to let go of it. It's not a movement if nobody joins it. It's inevitable that many who join will have new and different ideas about how the movement can best achieve its goals. Surely you understand at some level that your discomfort with an idea doesn't make it wrong. And surely you understand that if your movement excludes those with new ideas, it runs a huge risk of stagnation.

                  So: You founded the movement. Good for you. Now it's your task to articulate a vision that other people will accept, or accept the visions that other people articulate. If you can't make common cause with those who share your goals but disagree on tactics, then how do you expect to win over people who don't even share your goals?

                  Let us all have the strength to see the humanity in our enemies, and the courage to let them see the humanity in ourselves.

                  by Nowhere Man on Mon Feb 06, 2012 at 07:11:38 AM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  The problem with "letting go" (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    An Affirming Flame

                    is that anarchists still make up a large part of the movement.  You're basically asking a whole bunch of people to continue organizing for someone else's beliefs, which is just absurd in my opinion.

                    So: You founded the movement. Good for you. Now it's your task to articulate a vision that other people will accept, or accept the visions that other people articulate. If you can't make common cause with those who share your goals but disagree on tactics, then how do you expect to win over people who don't even share your goals?

                    Winning people over to our goals is a separate problem from arguing over tactics.  There were discussions and disagreements about tactics from the very beginning, that didn't stop the movement from growing.  One of the problems is that the movement as a whole has a lot of different goals.  Some folks would be happy just reinstating the glass-steagall act.  Some feel we need far deeper changes.  Those of us that have been there since the beginning generally tend to fall on the more radical side of that.

                    There revolution will not be televised. But it will be blogged, a lot. Probably more so than is necessary.

                    by AoT on Mon Feb 06, 2012 at 09:34:18 AM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                •  When the initiators become marginalized. (4+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Nowhere Man, AoT, Kamakhya, Evolutionary

                  It's an interesting phenomenon.

                  But first let's all get the history right.  It was anarchists who started the movement.  The convenience of saying that the Black Bloc doesn't represent Occupy or that window breakers are agents provacateurs -- a defense that we would never allow for the Tea Party, BTW -- is old and inaccurate in this case.  David Graeber's essay here has been the single best account of Occupy I've read and I recommend it to everyone.

                  But a risk of direct democracy, or democracy, as I understand you prefer, is that nothing ensures that the ideology of the people who started a movement will remain its predominant ideology.  So what happens when the 10 - 40 - 99% reject anarchy, the trashing of a children's exhibit (no bricks were harmed in that protest), or spray painting Fuck the Police on the plaza steps?

                  David, your conversation with Andrej Grubacic during the GA in Oakland gave me the impression that you saw this movement as anarchy's long-awaited chance to shine.  So what happens when the tactics that promote anarchy alienate the vast majority of the 99%? Which movement -- Anarchy or Occupy -- gets your support?

              •  They need to be "officially" denounced. The black (3+ / 0-)

                bloc thrives on others' reluctance to call them what they are...stupid posers playing video game heroes.

                Purity isn't neccessary, but a clear statement is.  These idiots have ruined excellent peaceful movements before.  (There was no Battle in Seattle except for their idiotic window-breaking)

              •  I agree with surrounding those whose (0+ / 0-)

                aim might be violence, but I know of many who won't try to censor anti-Obama signs. They will not go for that censorship.

                •  One of the reasons I believe in the Occupy (0+ / 0-)

                  movement... it looks at facts and criticizes accordingly.

                  It doesn't clap louder in the hopes of obtaining change by fawning allegiance.

                  It isn't that Obama hasn't Changed anything; It's that his actions advance the 1%'s interests.

                  by Johnathan Ivan on Mon Feb 06, 2012 at 11:59:59 AM PST

                  [ Parent ]

            •  And by Americans you mean liberals (3+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Evolutionary, joe wobblie, elwior

              who already agree with our message.  Or did we suddenly turn in to a new country that doesn't support the death penalty and wars overseas.

              There revolution will not be televised. But it will be blogged, a lot. Probably more so than is necessary.

              by AoT on Sun Feb 05, 2012 at 07:39:23 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

          •  This is good to know. Thanks. I (5+ / 0-)

            I agree most people are frightened by change, even when they say they want it. It's a tightrope trying to bring new people on board in the midst of a police department that actually should/would radicalize any reasonable person.

            I guess what I'm saying isn't no much about violence, per se, but more so about message and actions. Stay on amessage that grows the movement, even though more activist oriented folks might have something different (and a "bit more radical") to say.

            Catch my drift?

            I've become re-radicalized. Thanks a lot you bunch of oligarchical fascist sons-of-bitches. But once again, I have no choice. Bring it the fuck on.

            by mdmslle on Sun Feb 05, 2012 at 07:34:50 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  They will be dealt with in the most peaceful way (12+ / 0-)

              possible. I doubt they will enjoy being the center of a large crowd of angry protesters.  I don't think they will like that kind of attention.  Another tactic was suggested a while back that was meant for the cops, but would work well with Black-bloc rioters.  If you have a crowd, with them mixed in, and they pull shit - make sure everyone else in the crowd knows to just sit on the ground.  The Black-bloc people will either stand out to the cops and they can handle them, or they will be forced to sit down as well, ending their threat.

              There are plenty of non-violent means to end the problem.

              #OccupyOMC - "We have a permit, its called The Constitution".

              by Evolutionary on Sun Feb 05, 2012 at 07:40:04 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

        •  Come see for yourself. (10+ / 0-)
          Maybe it's that I don't live there.

          That is exactly it. Anyone who doesn't live here is getting so fantastically slanted a view of OO that it is a pure (but very unfunny) joke.

          I live here.

          I haven't spent that much time down at OO, or joined marches. But I did visit a few times when the plaza was in fact occupied - I've cooked and brought food, etc, and joined in the General Strike - and I can say that the perception given out in every shred of coverage I have seen and heard outside this site, and some of what I have seen here, bears no relation whatsoever to the actual feeling of the occupation on the ground. Even local news coverage is simply unrecognizable as a representation of the actual occupation here, and it boggles my mind.

          When I was there the only bad  feeling came from a tiny number of Black Bloc/anarchist idiots, the ones who show up at any and every demonstration to enable the media to demonize demonstrators. And even they were simply not in evidence at the occupation itself - just during some marches, where they tagged along to take the opportunity to break a few bank windows.

          Apart from them, the feeling was of cooperation and working things out, of the occupiers making their presence felt by just staying firm and not letting people ignore them. The occupation was like what I remember from my childhood in the '70s, when protest groups, and the remnants of the '60s counterculture, would establish consensus-driven self-regulating microcosmic cultures, whether for a week at an anti-nuclear protest or for years at some back-to-the land commune.

          These places were (and are again) never perfect, always a bit sketchy looking, always more than a bit messy, sometimes more than a bit scattered and even conflicted in their aims and especially in their means, but they are not the scary places, scary groups of militants and haters that the media and the right wing have become proficient at portraying them as.

          I wish you could have come to see OO while it was in place on the plaza, and especially on the November 2nd General Strike. You would be well fortified to dismiss with utter scorn the characterizations of OO that are prevalent everywhere except among those who've been there.

          Cry, the beloved country, these things are not yet at an end.

          by rcbowman on Sun Feb 05, 2012 at 08:24:42 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  rcb, what has totally turned me off of (10+ / 0-)

            the oo movement is the continuous diaries here on this site - especially ones that are by a poster who is posting remotely from oregon.

            the videos posted are as much propaganda as the news releases from the mayor's office.

            when truth is sacrificed for ideology, everyone loses.  i've been very active of late debunking some of the wilder claims of "brutality" - the videos linked i've broken down frame by frame to see what happened and why.  the protesters who are arrested and had batons used on them provoked that action by actively resisting arrest and fighting with the police in many of the videos i've watched repeatedly.

            protesters knew from my generation that when you are arrested, cooperate.  then let the lawyers sort it out.  part of the devices used in my day were multiple arrests to overwhelm the courts to put the issues on the table.  the sheer quantity of arrests is what accented the goals of the protests.

            when people watch a young hyped up male actively struggling and fighting with 4-5-6 police officers, the sympathies are NOT with the idiot trying to fight off an arrest.  when one is arrested, at that point, everything changes.  it isn't up to the officer to determine whether or not the arrest is valid, it is the court.

            the protesters provoking confrontations do not seem to understand that.

            EdriesShop is currently reloading! More to come in the next few days! - Is GlowNZ back yet?

            by edrie on Sun Feb 05, 2012 at 10:46:08 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  agreed about the other poster (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Caipirinha

              the zero dissent allowed in occupy diaries is largely his/her fault.  nothing like "agree with us and saw what we want or get out" of those diaries...

              In my many years I have come to a conclusion that one useless man is a shame, two is a law firm, and three or more is a congress. -John Adams

              by rcnewton on Mon Feb 06, 2012 at 09:02:20 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  I agree, unfortunately (3+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Caipirinha, edrie, rcnewton

                I am very pro-occupy, as most folks have probably noticed, but I can't stand it when people shut down different points of view on it.  We need to discuss it if it's going to succeed.

                There revolution will not be televised. But it will be blogged, a lot. Probably more so than is necessary.

                by AoT on Mon Feb 06, 2012 at 11:41:11 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  AoT, this is why i enjoy interacting with you... (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  AoT, rcnewton

                  you discuss ideas and debate those ideas and perceptions - you don't try to shut down anything that doesn't support your point of view.

                  i truly get the feeling that you are open to other perceptions and, likewise, i read your posts to be open to yours.

                  thank you!

                  EdriesShop is currently reloading! More to come in the next few days! - Is GlowNZ back yet?

                  by edrie on Mon Feb 06, 2012 at 11:57:26 AM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Thanks (2+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    edrie, rcnewton

                    I enjoy our interactions as well.  It's nice to talk with people who disagree with me but don't just spout the same lines and instead actually talk about things.

                    There revolution will not be televised. But it will be blogged, a lot. Probably more so than is necessary.

                    by AoT on Mon Feb 06, 2012 at 12:42:13 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  same feeling toward you. i always feel that we (2+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      rcnewton, Evolutionary

                      both clarify our positions when we interact - and, in doing so, we may help others understand the areas of disagreement AND the areas of common ground we share.

                      for example, in another post i just responded to, you explained your reasoning for following an anarchist philosophy - that is understandable, even if we don't philosophically agree in that.

                      where i get upset on this site is when someone starts out saying "i am an anarchist" then they refuse to discuss the course that those beliefs take and just reply with the "stfu" type of snarky comments that are so unhelpful.

                      i truly believe that there is room for expansion for all political philosophies and that the lines between them are truly blurred.  discussing these philosophies (while holding the political realities we face close) gives us all room to improve on ALL political policies.  

                      as you might have guessed, i'm a libran - it is my nature to look at all sides of an argument or debate to try to find the most rational approach to solutions.  

                      working together is the only way we will "fix" the problematic world we live in.  

                      EdriesShop is currently reloading! More to come in the next few days! - Is GlowNZ back yet?

                      by edrie on Mon Feb 06, 2012 at 01:39:27 PM PST

                      [ Parent ]

        •  I lived in Oakland for a long time. It's a (9+ / 0-)

          beautiful, diverse city. There are radicals there who like to provoke controversy with the police. I had close associations with some.

          There are some great public servants on the police force. There are also some there who shouldn't be police officers. This is always the way it is with the police. The job attracts 2 kinds of people. The best kind of public servant and those people who are attracted to a position of power over others. Control freaks.

          Any and all occupy groups should steer clear of any groups or individuals promoting violence or destruction, because they will guarantee failure and bring discredit on all occupy groups.
          There will be agent provocateurs who try to bait the groups into committing violence or destruction of property.
          Steer clear, Oakland.

        •  Me too. OO seems unable/unwilling to be truly (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          rcnewton

          nonviolent.  

          Not making excuses for the police.  But Ghandi would not be reacting as does OO.

        •  Chris Hedges speaks to that fear (0+ / 0-)

          in his article on the black bloc:

          http://www.truthdig.com/...

          The Black Bloc anarchists, who have been active on the streets in Oakland and other cities, are the cancer of the Occupy movement. The presence of Black Bloc anarchists—so named because they dress in black, obscure their faces, move as a unified mass, seek physical confrontations with police and destroy property—is a gift from heaven to the security and surveillance state. The Occupy encampments in various cities were shut down precisely because they were nonviolent. They were shut down because the state realized the potential of their broad appeal even to those within the systems of power. They were shut down because they articulated a truth about our economic and political system that cut across political and cultural lines. And they were shut down because they were places mothers and fathers with strollers felt safe.
          •  That article is quite factually wrong (0+ / 0-)

            And given that Hedges totally was for the Greeks burning banks it is also hypocritical.  The Black Bloc did not come from Zerzan and the primitivists, it came from the German squatting movement and the primitivists were one block bloc in Seattle.  It's a tactic, not a specific group of people.

            There revolution will not be televised. But it will be blogged, a lot. Probably more so than is necessary.

            by AoT on Mon Feb 06, 2012 at 11:44:15 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

        •  I think at the start they were brilliant (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          rcnewton

          The problem is that they have gotten off message.  In Tampa the place they Occupied didn't have a connection to Wall Street they way the park in New York.  

          The park in NY was directly connected to Wall Street, and they were right to fight to stay there.  

          Movements always get defined by the radicals - FTP is a message sent from right wing heaven.  

          The bitter truth of deep inequality has been disguised by an era of cheap imported goods and the anyone-can-make-it celebrity myth - Polly Toynbee

          by fladem on Mon Feb 06, 2012 at 08:48:36 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

        •  Stifle your fears. n/t (0+ / 0-)

          People to Wall Street: "LET OUR MONEY GO"

          by hannah on Mon Feb 06, 2012 at 10:08:31 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

    •  "Disrespect" is now violence. (27+ / 0-)

      One must be so careful to in exercising one's Constl rights these days.

      Greed's self-regulation is collapse. So is delusion's.

      by Publius2008 on Sun Feb 05, 2012 at 05:36:16 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  It's Certainly Not Ghandian or King's Nonviolence. (16+ / 0-)

        It's nonassault without the broader moral high ground of nonviolence, wonderful as it was that a politically excluded minority community gave it significant approval.

        The purpose of the Gandhi / King approach is to be impeccably unassailable to win hearts and minds of the vast low-information social mainstream.

        Once you get into strong insults and such, you lose ability to sway the national population in any near term time frame. You're sentencing yourselves and those you'd advance to decades more of painstaking one on one persuasion.

        We are called to speak for the weak, for the voiceless, for victims of our nation and for those it calls enemy.... --ML King "Beyond Vietnam"

        by Gooserock on Sun Feb 05, 2012 at 06:08:03 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  this assumes every action is nationally focused (23+ / 0-)

          when it has been pretty clear that what's happening in oakland is about oakland, and aimed at oaklanders, especially those who have been mistreated by the powers that be.

          organizing locally is pretty important too. let the folks in peoria worry about peoria.

          •  Well spoken. Occupy isn't a bunch of automatons (10+ / 0-)

            they are different in each City.  I think most have the same overall goals - ending things like Citizens United, ending wars, funding health care and education, bringing actual jobs to America, and punishing those who have broken the law who seem able to pay their way out of any problem.

            Each Occupy has local 1% problems.  It's not like the 1% all live in one neighborhood in the US.  Each City has different types of police too.  Cops in Sacramento don't do what cops in Oakland do.  Violence?  None that I know of.  The Oakland Police Department is a national embarrassment, and a shame.  The same can now be said of the UC Davis Campus Police and City Police.  A National Embarrassment and a shame.  

            If specific Cities need to Occupy Police to point out Constitutional Rights being violated (like all ten of the ones listed in the Bill of Rights have been violated in Oakland, with the exception of one - guess which one).  Then that's what they need to do.  If something is wrong, we aren't just going to ignore it.  Cops have to obey the law too.  The ones that break it, just like their 1% counterparts will be held up to the standards of Justice - in time.

            #OccupyOMC - "We have a permit, its called The Constitution".

            by Evolutionary on Sun Feb 05, 2012 at 06:38:53 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

        •  Nice comment (15+ / 0-)

          I think you put very well the argument for restricting messaging and activity to "unassailable" non-violence, and I think it is a persuasive argument.  You might think it odd that I recc'ed both your comment and the comments you were responding to.  It is because I think it is also a great argument that there need to be people and actions that push the conversation.  I think (of course I don't KNOW - nobody does) that Martin Luther King Jr may have been more effective in part BECAUSE of the presence of other figures, like Malcolm X and the Black Panthers, who served to push the area of acceptable conversation further.

          I think right now it is not clear what the best way forward is, and I think what Occupy Oakland is doing might be very worthwhile, as well as what others are doing.  We may need a real diversity of opinion and action.

        •  The difference being that we can win in Oakland (6+ / 0-)

          and by winning here spread that victory.  The reason Gandhi and King were so successful in spreading  nonviolence is because it was successful and it directly effected change.  In this case it isn't clear that there is support for that sort of change.

          There revolution will not be televised. But it will be blogged, a lot. Probably more so than is necessary.

          by AoT on Sun Feb 05, 2012 at 07:26:00 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  It is nearly always a subject of conversations (8+ / 0-)

            at the GA's.  Of the GA's I have been to, all have used Direct Democracy to vote that the the course of non-violence is paramount.  The names and words of Ghandi and Martin Luther King, Jr. are brought up and repeated over and over.  There is huge support for these ideas and tactics.  Still a bit like herding cats though.  Kind of like trying to herd Democrats ;).

            It's the fringes that are attracted to it like a magnet that disagree.  They are the fringe, and they are few.  They include Black-bloc, Libertarians (not very well tolerated), Anarchists (some with more peaceful intentions than you might think), and in a few spots - religious groups out there protesting with us.
            Remember the Pastor in Seattle?  Hosed from top to bottom, fucking soaked with liquid pepper spray - for standing between protesting kids and the cops.  Just for standing there.  Many religious groups have been paying attention, and not are all just like those right-wing fundies we have been seeing.

            Point being, folks want to follow a non-violent course.  There are methods for dealing with everything, and we have wonderful teachers.  Lots of our older generation went through similar ordeals.  They have paved the way.

            #OccupyOMC - "We have a permit, its called The Constitution".

            by Evolutionary on Sun Feb 05, 2012 at 08:01:33 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  Most Anarchists are non-violent (5+ / 0-)

              In fact, most of the people in the Black Bloc don't break anything.  During the day of the general strike there were about 400 people in the black bloc and about eight windows got broken.

              Point being, folks want to follow a non-violent course.

              Not to be obtuse, but no, all folks obviously don't.  Especially here in Oakland.  I imagine there are a lot of people in the US that aren't turned off by violence, especially given the broad support for various wars and the death penalty.  My point here is not to say that the movement needs to be violent, but instead to say that arguing that violence is bad tactically is infinitely arguable and angry people will just stop listening.

              There revolution will not be televised. But it will be blogged, a lot. Probably more so than is necessary.

              by AoT on Sun Feb 05, 2012 at 08:24:02 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  Everything in its proper time and place ;). (5+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                rcbowman, joe wobblie, edrie, kyril, elwior

                We need to also remember that is it is entirely possible to be extremely angry, and non-violent simultaneously.

                We want angry Americans to join us. They SHOULD be angry.  Then, as we have already endeavored to do, we can direct that anger in constructive ways.

                Occupy has already exceeded my expectations.  It has been around what, 4-5 months?  It's the talk of the town, other than ousting Scott Walker.  The suffering of human beings is actually being paid attention to.

                #OccupyOMC - "We have a permit, its called The Constitution".

                by Evolutionary on Sun Feb 05, 2012 at 08:31:47 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  Not if you are working in the Gandhian form (6+ / 0-)

                  of non-violence.  According to both Gandhi and King you needed an emotional commitment to non-violence, not just a tactical commitment.  This movement doesn't have an emotional commitment to non-violence.

                  There revolution will not be televised. But it will be blogged, a lot. Probably more so than is necessary.

                  by AoT on Sun Feb 05, 2012 at 08:37:03 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Good point. Why not? (0+ / 0-)
                    •  Because people are angry (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      elwior

                      In the context of Oakland specifically people are really angry.  People are tired of being asked to submit to police violence again and again and again, for decades now.  That doesn't just go away because someone tells you it's a bad tactic.  What is most frustrating to me is to see all these people call for non-violence from behind their computers and not get out there and organize the non-violent movement.

                      There revolution will not be televised. But it will be blogged, a lot. Probably more so than is necessary.

                      by AoT on Mon Feb 06, 2012 at 09:45:35 AM PST

                      [ Parent ]

                •  I talked to some Egyptian activists (9+ / 0-)

                  from the April 6 meeting in the months before I was helping out setting up the first GAs that planned the Zuccotti Park occupation. They said "yes, of course we were non-violent. We never went further than throwing rocks. Sometimes we did throw a lot of rocks. But certainly never firearms!"

                  In other words even the liberal Egyptian activists went far, far further than any US anarchists yet have.

                  Presumably if you had been in Egypt the revolution would never have happened because you would have been spending all your time trying to surround, protest, and expel the other activists and telling everyone that Mubarak's forces attacks on the protestors were really the fault of all those damn rock throwers

                  •  your point of view disgusts me. (4+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    sviscusi, exlrrp, hooper, rcnewton

                    throwing a lot of rocks, eh?  ask the palestinians who get shot for doing that, too.

                    and in egypt?  how many died?  is that what you want for here?

                    you really REALLY disgust me.  now i KNOW that you are nothing more than a sick agitator with dreams (or delusions) of grandeur.

                    your previous comment illustrates that even more, now.

                    The idea of a bunch of liberals now hounding us out of a movement we started is utterly disgusting.

                    Go home and create your own fucking movement, don't try to take over ours and kick us out of it.

                    EdriesShop is currently reloading! More to come in the next few days! - Is GlowNZ back yet?

                    by edrie on Sun Feb 05, 2012 at 11:02:01 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  and they wouldn't have died (6+ / 0-)

                      had they not thrown rocks?

                      really?

                      is that what you're saying?

                      Mubarak's police wouldn't have fired on anyone had they not been provoked? His regime would have been overthrown because a dictator's cops would never ever attack peaceful protestors?

                      the point is that the Egyptians understood something about solidarity. Which is one reason why they won. You don't have a clue.

                      Me, I've never thrown a rock in my life and never intend to but if the cops are shooting and someone throws something back, I'm not going to try to kick then out of the movement or pretend that's why the cops were shooting in the first place. The idea of someone self-righteous jerk like you who knows nothing of how all this movement started, how social movements operate and why they win, or apparently pretty much anything else, condemning me for pointing to the realities here is what I find disgusting. You're not helping. Anyone.

                      •  You are no hero. The US in not Egypt. We have no (2+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        rcnewton, Caipirinha

                        Mubarak.

                        Stupid fucking poseurs.  Imo, of course.

                        •  Of course the US isn't Egypt (2+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          elwior, An Affirming Flame

                          and no one said it was.  The point was that violence happened in Egypt from the side of the protesters and saying that this is okay isn't disgusting, which is what edrie said.

                          There revolution will not be televised. But it will be blogged, a lot. Probably more so than is necessary.

                          by AoT on Mon Feb 06, 2012 at 09:46:56 AM PST

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  i think you misunderstand what i say and mean. (0+ / 0-)

                            let me be clear.

                            david graeber has made statements in this diary that totally disgust me.  on a very personal level - i am disgusted by his claim that this movement is "his" - "HE started it" - he consulted with egyptians - why in HELL would he think that is relevant?

                            as an "anarchist" - he is making statements here that are outrageous and offensive to those of us who believe in functioning government instead of the self-centered, immature and purile view held by anarchists.

                            if you need me to link to an enclyclopedia tome of descriptions of anarchists and anarchy, i will.   graeber and his "pretend poliitics" (i use "pretend" because anarchy has not and never will be a form of government or societal policy because it can not and never has worked in groups larger than ONE.)

                            graeber reminds me of andy warhol's assessment that everyone has 15 minutes of fame.  is his fifteen minutes up yet?

                            i hope so!

                            EdriesShop is currently reloading! More to come in the next few days! - Is GlowNZ back yet?

                            by edrie on Mon Feb 06, 2012 at 11:43:55 AM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  I disagree with your assessment of anarchism (3+ / 0-)

                            It is a well developed political theory that has worked in groups larger than one, on numerous occasions.  I consider myself to be a philosophical anarchist, although on the political side I'm generally more pragmatic.

                            And Graeber and other anarchists really were the initial driving force behind organizing Occupy Wall Street.  Without them organizing food and blankets and such for those of us that showed up on the first day in New York the movement would have amounted to nothing.

                            It's fine to disagree with anarchist politics, but the contribution they made to Occupy is undeniable.

                            There revolution will not be televised. But it will be blogged, a lot. Probably more so than is necessary.

                            by AoT on Mon Feb 06, 2012 at 12:09:59 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  did you read graeber's comment upthread? (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Evolutionary

                            that statementreally set me off - it also says to me that he is an attention-seeking individual who is finding "glory" in all this without putting his own security and future employment at risk.  it's okay for the other "little expendable guys and gals" to get arrested, face felony charges, wreck their futures - but HE is the one who is claiming the movement - the glory.

                            he is an egotistical manipulator for personal gain, imho.

                            let me block quote the main statement he made again (it is in the link, along with the entire exchange, though)

                            This movement was started by anarchists who had taken part in Black Blocs and it was those anarchist principles that got it off the ground. The idea of a bunch of liberals now hounding us out of a movement we started is utterly disgusting.

                            Go home and create your own fucking movement, don't try to take over ours and kick us out of it.

                            EdriesShop is currently reloading! More to come in the next few days! - Is GlowNZ back yet?

                            by edrie on Mon Feb 06, 2012 at 12:31:08 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  The factual aspect of that statement is (2+ / 0-)

                            completely correct.  It was started by anarchists who had participated in black blocs.  That's not just him, it's a lot of different people.  There were black blocs in New York, they just didn't do property damage.  Okay, one time I saw someone draw a little anarchy sign on a cop car, like two inches across, but that was the extent of it.

                            The problem here is that there are a bunch of people that are trying to act like anarchists have nothing to do with the success of the movement because there have been, that I've counted, two actions associated with the movement where anarchists either engaged in property destruction or threw crap at the police.  If a random working class Joe showed up and threw a bottle at the cops we wouldn't see people rending their garments and going on and on about how we need to stop these violent working class people from destroying the movement.  But when a group of people who have literally been involved from the beginning do the same thing then everyone is up in arms.

                            There revolution will not be televised. But it will be blogged, a lot. Probably more so than is necessary.

                            by AoT on Mon Feb 06, 2012 at 12:40:54 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  actually, if i see ANY person throwing bottles, (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Evolutionary

                            i am going to be stepping up and demanding that the violence end.

                            why do i single out anarchists here?  because i've seen multiple posts by those claiming to be anarchists calling for physical action that is violent.  and, yes, i DO consider it violence when the target is inanimate.  just watch how someone recoils from a person that starts to hit a wall, throw things, smash inanimate objects.

                            i know of one business where the owner would hold sales meetings where he would stand and punch himself in the face while screaming at the top of his lungs at his employees.

                            the ptsd that the workers felt was palpable and obvious!  he never  directly "struck" the employees but the result of his behavior was the same as their being physically punched.

                            i have gone after those anarchists on this site for claiming that "violence" only counts when it is physically directed on an individual - that is NOT true at all!  i am not criticizing without direct reasons for doing so.

                            EdriesShop is currently reloading! More to come in the next few days! - Is GlowNZ back yet?

                            by edrie on Mon Feb 06, 2012 at 01:32:58 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  no risk to future employment? (0+ / 0-)

                            I'm a child of working class parents who worked my way up to becoming a professor at Yale, which took levels of will and determination you probably can't imagine, and then was willing to sacrifice it all because I felt it was incumbent on my to stand up for what I believed when the global justice movement started up. In the process I was basically kicked out of American academia entirely.

                            You know nothing of what you speak.

                            As for being disgusted by my comment - why? because you feel you have a god-given right to jump into a movement you played no role in starting, clearly lack to wisdom, creativity, determination, or generosity of spirit to have been able to start, and then try to kick out those who did have that wisdom, creativity, determination, and generosity of spirit (again, all those anarchists who stuck it out day after day when we figured likely as not we'd all end up clobbered and in jail and no one would even know but carried on anyway) because you are so absolutely convinced your opinion about appropriate tactics is so much more correct?

                            I think my reaction was quite appropriate. If you want to get involved in something you didn't start, show some respect and try to understand those who actually did start it. If you can't manage that, start a movement of your own and let's see how well you do with that.

                          •  jeesh! (0+ / 0-)

                            sooooo,  as for your comment about my "jumping into a movement" [that professes to represent me and the other 98.99999%], i'll jump into ANY group that pretends to speak for me, thank you (not) very much!

                            as for getting started with you, clearly the rest of us 98.999%ers "lack" your "wisdom, creativity, determination and generosity of spirit" - especially those of who WERE the 60s generation and faced off the powers that be that gave your working class parents the chance to send you to yale.

                            your arrogance is appalling - your political beliefs are ineffective - your pomposity is ... well ... mind-bending in its verbosity.

                            honey, don't try to battle with those old enough to be your parent!  you were not even born when my generation was  fighting for change!

                            and, what exactly was that controversy that was at the seat of yale's not rehiring you?  and you have the audacity to claim that teaching at one of the most elite schools in the nation prepares you to speak for the other 98.9999% exactly how?

                            from what is publicly known about your tenure there , the last course you taught would seem to be why you are now so determined to fight society at every turn.  for you, this seems very personal.  [furthermore, as you are a public figure with a wikipedia bio, i am not violating the "outing" standard of this site... you, yourself, just referred to your having taught at yale.)

                            i have not challenged any thing other than your politcal stance and, yet, you claim to OWN the very movement you and others claim to represent me and the other 98.999%

                            to truly represent the masses, one has to give over the id and become a PART of those masses.  instead, your posts become personally derisive and seem to indicate you think you own of all that is ows.  why?

                            i think these comments of yours sum up the problem here - and why you will never get wide support for any duration from more than a handful of reactionaries like yourself.

                            the change of the 60s and 70s (AND of the 30s and 40s) came from people who worked hard to enact laws to protect and preserve the rights of others.  until the ows movement engages in the formation and passage of those laws, it is nothing more than what  chris hedges describes in his article as

                            Black Bloc anarchists are an example of what Theodore Roszak in “The Making of a Counter Culture” called the “progressive adolescentization” of the American left.

                            i would expand that assessment by hedges to include the majority of anarchists who claim that they "own" this movement.  unlike the 60s and 70s when we professed to be the "people's movement" and were successful in changing the laws in this nation to support those claims.

                            what laws are you demanding be changed?  what legislation are YOU proposing?  

                            furthermore, i seem to recall the continuing statements by many of your "followers" that this is a "leaderless" movement - one that is a simple majority rules - yet, now you claim to "own" it?  how will all those who profess there are no "leaders" respond to that?

                            to further quote hedges, this is also how i and many others see your involvement, thanks to your own comments, whether or not you are a memeber of the black bloc.  your comments underscore your attitude here on this site as the same.

                            The Black Bloc movement bears the rigidity and dogmatism of all absolutism sects. Its adherents alone possess the truth. They alone understand. They alone arrogate the right, because they are enlightened and we are not, to dismiss and ignore competing points of view as infantile and irrelevant. They hear only their own voices. They heed only their own thoughts. They believe only their own clichés. And this makes them not only deeply intolerant but stupid.

                            and regarding anarchists, hedges says accurately, imho,

                            These anarchists represent no one but themselves. Those in Oakland, although most are white and many are not from the city, arrogantly dismiss Oakland’s African-American leaders, who, along with other local community organizers, should be determining the forms of resistance.

                            now, i'm going to disengage from interacting with you.  your buffoonery is exposed by your own tongue.  i'm done with this pathetic nonsense.

                            EdriesShop is currently reloading! More to come in the next few days! - Is GlowNZ back yet?

                            by edrie on Mon Feb 06, 2012 at 06:30:09 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  my parents didn't send me to Yale (0+ / 0-)

                            I went to SUNY Purchase. State school. All we could afford.

                            I did get a job at Yale later.

                            You really do have very poor reading skills, don't you?

                            you're also a person who makes loud statements you couldn't possibly know anything about - like declaring to the world that I'm not doing anything to endanger my future employability. People who make grand declarations of fact when in fact they don't have the slightest way of knowing if what they say is true or not are tantamount to liars. Well, I guess if lying is murder, this would be the equivalent of manslaughter. Absolute complete disinterest in the truth. Why on earth, after acting like that, do you expect anyone to take you remotely seriously?  You basically just admitted to the world you're just talking out of your ass and don't even care whether what you say is likely or unlikely to be true.

                            Which is why I didn't bother reading the rest of the rant.

                             

                          •  too bad you didn't finish - you might have learned (0+ / 0-)

                            something instead of trying to slander me and trying to change the words in my post.

                            to clarify yet again, HERE is what i said based on your comment that you taught at yale.  that comment is why i went to wikipedia and learned more about you.  i never said you "went" to yale, i repeated what YOU stated, that you had TAUGHT at yale...

                            and, what exactly was that controversy that was at the seat of yale's not rehiring you?  and you have the audacity to claim that teaching at one of the most elite schools in the nation prepares you to speak for the other 98.9999% exactly how?

                            from what is publicly known about your tenure there , the last course you taught would seem to be why you are now so determined to fight society at every turn.  for you, this seems very personal.  [furthermore, as you are a public figure with a wikipedia bio, i am not violating the "outing" standard of this site... you, yourself, just referred to your having taught at yale.)

                            there IS no statement by me that you WENT to yale - anywhere!

                            my statement that

                            as for getting started with you, clearly the rest of us 98.999%ers "lack" your "wisdom, creativity, determination and generosity of spirit" - especially those of who WERE the 60s generation and faced off the powers that be that gave your working class parents the chance to send you to yale.
                            was in reference to your teaching there - not sending you there as a student.  that they provided you with an education that enabled you to get the job of teaching assistant was the same situation that enabled me to teach at university after i finished my degree.  had my parents not sent me to college, etc., that opportunity to teach would not have existed.

                            that you misread it does not surprise me - and that you are lacking the courage to read the balance of my post also does not surprise me.  intolerant people often run away from honest dialogue and disagreement.  and, so have you now run?

                            IF you should engage in an HONEST discussion about the efficacy of the involvement of anarchists in bringing about real change in this movement, or any OTHER movement, for that matter, then i will continue to engage with you on the topic being discussed.

                            IF your only recourse is to throw ad homs, cleverly veiled insults, then i have no time or patience to entertain your point of view.

                            your choice, if you dare...

                            EdriesShop is currently reloading! More to come in the next few days! - Is GlowNZ back yet?

                            by edrie on Mon Feb 06, 2012 at 07:41:03 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  and, wow. just. wow. (0+ / 0-)

                            here is an interview between david graeber and ezra klein that david, himself, posted as a diary.

                            to say that his "view" is mindboggling is an understatement.

                            go read the diary for yourselves.  

                            sheesh!  

                            EdriesShop is currently reloading! More to come in the next few days! - Is GlowNZ back yet?

                            by edrie on Mon Feb 06, 2012 at 07:56:56 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                  •  david America is not Egypt (2+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    rcnewton, Caipirinha

                    and every time small A anarchists in America 'go to far' you lose the support of  people you need in order to make this movement more than JUST another small movement, basically,  going nowhere.

                    Reality is a bitch but it IS reality and the reality you refuse to accept is that this movement needs MORE than small a anachists if it is to grow come spring and have an impact that matters, in America.

                    and since you started this line... IF you small a anarchists had been in india Gandhi would never have succeeded  :)

                    see how silly saying things like that sound

                    "Orwell was an optimist"

                    by KnotIookin on Mon Feb 06, 2012 at 07:00:19 AM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  This is just wrong (2+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      elwior, An Affirming Flame
                      and since you started this line... IF you small a anarchists had been in india Gandhi would never have succeeded  :)

                      You do realize that there were violent nationalists fighting British rule for the entire time that Gandhi was organizing?  He wasn't the only game in town.

                      There revolution will not be televised. But it will be blogged, a lot. Probably more so than is necessary.

                      by AoT on Mon Feb 06, 2012 at 09:48:32 AM PST

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  AOT, go read the even sillier comment (0+ / 0-)

                        David posted lol and then you can freely berate me for ridiculing HIS Line of 'discussion'  ok?   but to answer my post with a history lesson on India and gandhi means to me you missed my point completely  :)

                        "Orwell was an optimist"

                        by KnotIookin on Mon Feb 06, 2012 at 09:54:57 AM PST

                        [ Parent ]

                    •  this is untrue (0+ / 0-)

                      we were in fact in India, Gandhi was in many ways himself a small-a anarchist or very close, there have been lots of people who engaged in property destruction who were themselves Gandhians (and are now, viz the KRSS' action against Kentucky Fried Chicken in the '90s), and in fact there were even people blowing trains and whatnot.

                      They tried to say all that delegitimated Gandhi and the nationalist movement in general and that they were really a front for "terrorists" but in that case it didn't work. Why? Because there weren't people like that jerk saying that if even one person at a rally throws a bottle the entire cause is delegitimated.

                      Gandhi himself said very clearly, and I think this bears repeating: He who acts against injustice non-violently is morally superior to he who acts injustice violently. But he who acts against injustice violently is morally superior to he who does not act against it at all.

                  •  Revolution against a dictatorship is justified (0+ / 0-)

                    violence.

                    Revolution against a democracy, the majority of whose voters disagree with you is not.

                    •  the entire point of OWS (0+ / 0-)

                      is that we are no longer living in a democracy. We are living in a system of institutionalized bribery and there is no way to fix it from within

                      in New York, 86% of the public supported the right of occupiers to stay in Zuccotti Park. They were evicted, beaten, jailed, and robbed (their possessions stolen and destroyed, their library burned) despite that.

                      •  Sorry - it's a democracy (0+ / 0-)

                        And ~ 50% of our voters even support Republicans.

                        We don't have a left wing government because we don't have a left wing population, not because of corporate lobbyists.

                        in New York, 86% of the public supported the right of occupiers to stay in Zuccotti Park.
                        Cite please... At least 14% of the New York public is right wing Republicans who don't support OWS at all.
                        •  they supported (0+ / 0-)

                          our right to stay in the square
                          that's different
                          the polls were readily available

                          as for the polls - there's a big difference between supporting people and voting for them. Most Americans usually don't vote and almost all loathe politicians. Because they see the system as institutionally corrupt.

            •  anarchists (5+ / 0-)

              started this movement
              your attempt to marginalize us is repulsive

              •  No. Just cut the shit. (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                rcnewton

                Anarchists are fine (though I doubt your claim to have "started the movement.").  But violence is not acceptable.

                •  Anarchist did start the movement (2+ / 0-)

                  and remain a large part of the organizers.  This has been diaried here and talked about elsewhere numerous times.  I can personally say that I know there was a near majority, if not outright majority, of anarchists in Liberty Plaza.

                  There revolution will not be televised. But it will be blogged, a lot. Probably more so than is necessary.

                  by AoT on Mon Feb 06, 2012 at 11:48:52 AM PST

                  [ Parent ]

              •  David if you want to OWN the movement SAY SO (3+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                rcnewton, Caipirinha, Evolutionary

                you sound like a little kid telling everyone in the playground that if we dont play your game by your rules YOU will take your movement and go home....

                same as it ever was.  

                "Orwell was an optimist"

                by KnotIookin on Mon Feb 06, 2012 at 07:03:01 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  I don't want to own anything (0+ / 0-)

                    I just say that people who feel they can show up in a movement they played no role in starting, and then self-righteously condemn, threaten, and try to expel those who did, might want to join a different movement.

                    I am for people of all flavors and views and approaches joining. I think that's great. The problem is a lot of people here don't seem to be. They're the ones who seem to feel they "own" the movement, since they are the ones who feel they can kick other people out.

                   

              •  We don't need to marginalize you (0+ / 0-)

                Anarchists marginalize themselves.

                We also don't need to make you look stupid.

                •  funny (0+ / 0-)

                  I thought that whole "occupy" and "99%" thing us anarchists started worked out rather well.

                    but no doubt it is nothing compared with what you and your friends came up with. tell us about that.

                  •  But now you are being marginalized (0+ / 0-)

                    When you're working on winning elections kids who like to run around in masks and throw stones have to sit at the little kids table at the side of the room.

                    Sorry, dude. Maybe you'll grow up in a few years.

                    •  ah I see (0+ / 0-)

                      yes the electoral strategy. That just worked out so well for you last time.

                      •  As opposed to running around and throwing rocks (0+ / 0-)

                        through windows? Heck yes!

                        And remember, kiddo, you're a minority of a minority.

                        If you ever really start using violence to achieve your goals the government of the US, backed by easily 90% of the population, will wipe you out like bug. And good riddance to you if they do.

                        •  no (0+ / 0-)

                            as opposed to starting Occupy Wall Street and changing the entire political conversation

                            perhaps it is a sign of the weakness of our public education system that people have such amazingly poor reading skills, or, more likely, people like you just don't really care to find out what an interlocutor is saying if they can slot them into a stereotype and start screaming at them, but in case you're interested in what I actually said: I pointed out that anarchists had originally started OWS and were responsible for its tactics and vision. I also said that some of those anarchists - myself included - had been in Black Blocs, (most of which don't actually engage in property destruction you know), that we didn't philosophically oppose the occasional tactical use of property damage when appropriate, but had concluded that it would be profoundly inappropriate in that context.

                            That's what I said.

                            Your electoral strategy has accomplished almost nothing despite in 2008 having almost ideal circumstances and ended up moving the national conversation even further to the right. Our civil disobedience and popular mobilization strategy changed the political conversation. If that's what you think is childish, it would seem the kids are a lot better at actually achieving political results than the "adults" here

                            apparently, though, what people actually say and what they actually did and accomplished is of very little interest to you

                           

                          •  A national conversation and $2 will get you coffee (0+ / 0-)

                            at Starbucks.

                            What matters is who gets elected and the policies they enact.

                            So far, we have seen no ability by OWS to impact electoral politics and they have succeeded in moving otherwise liberal politicians like Mayor Quan of Oakland towards the right.

                            Show me an OWS get out the vote campaign that delivers people to the polls who would not otherwise vote and I'll be impressed.

                            For now, my personal guess is that you'll do a better job of mobilizing the right to vote than the left.

                          •  okay (0+ / 0-)

                            so we have established you are living in a totally different universe even than 99% of Daily Kos readers.

                             between 2008 and 2010 there was a 60% decline in the youth vote. Why do you think that was? Because the youth vote had tripled over the 4 years previous, had almost entirely swung to the Democrats, and it brought young people zero results - Democrats were elected everywhere but with no actual pressure from the streets or social movements, and a political system absolutely and utterly corrupted by institutionalized bribery, despite a crisis situation where it would have been difficult NOT to do something radical, there was basically no progressive legislation enacted whatsoever.

                              So America's youth tried to do it your way and they got fucked.

                              You can make all the superior noises you like, but you're whistling in the wind. People tried that. It didn't work. The conversation shifted even more radically to the right. Now it's shifting back again, and it will be because nobody's listening to your utterly counterproductive advice.

                          •  I'm part of the reality based community (0+ / 0-)
                            between 2008 and 2010 there was a 60% decline in the youth vote. Why do you think that was? Because the youth vote had tripled over the 4 years previous, had almost entirely swung to the Democrats, and it brought young people zero results
                            You are entitled to your own opinions but not your own facts.

                            I know that it's not usually considered fair to confront people with facts when they are having such a fun time making stuff up, but hey, I'm a party pooper.

                            See http://www.census.gov/....

                            In 2008 48.5% of 18-24 year old citizens voted, compared with 46.7% in 2004.

                            In 2010 19.6% of 18-24 year old citizens voted, compared with 19.9% in 2006.

                            These numbers are very consistent over the last 40 years - basically since the end of the Vietnam war. Voting rates are about double in presidential elections compared with congressional elections.

                            The big outliers are 1996, 1998, and 2000 during which relatively few young people voted. Apparently Bill Clinton turned young people off of politics. Who knew!

                            In addition, 66% of the youth vote went for Democrats. That's not "almost entirely" in my book. http://pewresearch.org/...

                            despite a crisis situation where it would have been difficult NOT to do something radical, there was basically no progressive legislation enacted whatsoever.
                            Stimulus, Health Care Reform, ending Don't Ask Don't Tell, saving GM. Do you have early onset Alzheimer's?
                            but with no actual pressure from the streets or social movements,
                            You think pressure from the streets results in progressive legislation? Not in today's America. It results in more police hiring and people voting Republican.
                            The conversation shifted even more radically to the right. Now it's shifting back again,
                            Who cares about the conversation. Show me results. I hear crickets...
          •  And the reason it was successful (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            elwior, Dave the Rave, AoT

            was that there were much less attractive, less morally-impeccable movements out there scaring the snot out of the power elite. Dealing with King was seen as the least painful option.

            Gandhi's movement was in a similar context.

            Nonviolence alone doesn't get anywhere. Nonviolence works to effect social change when it's presented as an alternative to a real, clear, present danger of violence.

            I know that's not a pretty picture, but it's the truth - the power elite aren't scared of peaceful hippies marching. How long have the peaceful hippies been marching? 20 years now? With almost no news coverage and absolutely no government response. But some people start getting confrontational, Occupying space, breaking laws, and all of a sudden the government wants to talk to the Nice Hippies.

            "Let’s just move on, treat everybody with firmness, fairness, dignity, compassion and respect. Let’s be Marines." - Sgt. Maj Michael Barrett on DADT repeal

            by kyril on Sun Feb 05, 2012 at 11:37:14 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  The "power elite" is not afraid of the violent (0+ / 0-)

              fringe, they love it and encourage it.  It makes them happy to see hippies fighting.  The Black Bloc may as well be working for Fox.

              It's the Gandhian ones who scare them.

              •  Then why do they expend so many resources (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                elwior, kyril

                brutalizing those violent groups?

                There revolution will not be televised. But it will be blogged, a lot. Probably more so than is necessary.

                by AoT on Mon Feb 06, 2012 at 08:49:07 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  It's easy. I imagine it's fun, if you're the (0+ / 0-)

                  power elite.  Big fat targets, most people cheer, & it shifts the dialogue away from the issue (inequality) towards one that doesn't threaten the power structure and that most people don't care much about, cops vs hooligans.

                  •  It's easy to go bankrupt? (2+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    kyril, Evolutionary

                    I mean, the city of Oakland is spending money they don't have to attack marches before they are violent.  The police would have just as much fun attacking non-violent protesters.  And the police attacks shift the discussion away from economic injustice, of which income inequality is just one part, not the tiny minority of violent protesters.

                    There revolution will not be televised. But it will be blogged, a lot. Probably more so than is necessary.

                    by AoT on Mon Feb 06, 2012 at 11:51:02 AM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Eeek, we seem to be agreeing! (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      Evolutionary
                      And the police attacks shift the discussion away from economic injustice, of which income inequality is just one part, not the tiny minority of violent protesters.

                      But it's not just the police, it's also that "tiny minority."  And I still think we need to be clearer about rejecting violence.  

                      •  You might have a point if it weren't for the (1+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        kyril

                        fact that I heard complaints about exactly the same thing before there was any property damage.  I'm just getting annoyed hearing the same complaints, and not just this one, that were peddled at the beginning for why we would fail or why it was going off topic or whatever.  Don't get me wrong, there is a place for these discussions, but it's hard for me to take part in a reasonable manner when I've heard them a million damn times and have been shown wrong by how the movement has continued.  The fact of the matter is that the media ignores Occupy unless there is violence at this point, be that on the part of the cops or the protesters.

                        There revolution will not be televised. But it will be blogged, a lot. Probably more so than is necessary.

                        by AoT on Mon Feb 06, 2012 at 06:00:10 PM PST

                        [ Parent ]

        •  Impossible (5+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          kyril, catilinus, AoT, elwior, LucyandByron

          It is impossible to be "impeccably unassailable".


          "Justice is a commodity" (-- democracy inaction, 2/5/12)

          by joanneleon on Sun Feb 05, 2012 at 08:40:33 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

        •  this is untrue (7+ / 0-)

          there are Gandhian groups in India right now that make widespread use of property destruction on far more radical a scale than any US black bloc has ever attempted.

          •  Can you provide some links for that? (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            An Affirming Flame, Evolutionary

            I'd like to do some more research on Gandhi and Property discussion.  I've seen a lot said about it but haven't really seen any comprehensive articles or books on it.

            There revolution will not be televised. But it will be blogged, a lot. Probably more so than is necessary.

            by AoT on Mon Feb 06, 2012 at 11:52:21 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

      •  for any person who has ever been in an (6+ / 0-)

        abusive situation, that person will tell you in a heartbeat that screaming and insults and "disrespect" ARE violent actions.

        one doesn't have to physically hit to abuse.  from what i've seen on that tape, the crowds are volatile, hostile and on the edge.  THAT is what is provoking the response from the police.

        these protests that have been posted are NOT "non-violent" - the undercurrent and level of "out of control" energy is tangible, even in the youtube videos being posted.

        for fascination, i recently looked up definitions for crowd, mob and riot.  the distinctions are fascinating - the crowd may or may not share a common interest.  the mob is emotionally driven and is slightly below the level of riot.  riot is the result of a sudden change of activity within an emotionally laden situation (such as a mob).

        the job of police officers is to control the first group, defuse the energy of the second group before it reaches the third.

        the group of people gathered on the streets drive the response in the majority of cases.

        that said, i am NOT diminishing the behavior of pepper-spraying cop or others who are clearly out of control while in uniform.  adrenalin does strange things to people, even cops (many of whom suppress the most horrific images and incidents to survive).  does that justify their (the out of control cops) behavior?  absolutely not.  there needs to be a way to screen out cops on the edge.  there needs to be a way to take the pressure off of them, too.

        what this group in oakland is not doing is removing pressure.  it doesn't appear that the group cares at all about solutions.  from what i've read (which is totally mindboggling) is that the police should just not respond and leave these large groups of protesters alone to do what they will.

        now THAT is anarchy - and anarchy doesn't work.  ever.

        EdriesShop is currently reloading! More to come in the next few days! - Is GlowNZ back yet?

        by edrie on Sun Feb 05, 2012 at 10:54:32 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Oakland cops are VERY experienced at riot control (4+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          rcnewton, Caipirinha, elwior, edrie

          They could not have picked a town in CA where the cops are more acquainted with riots. Oakland, a blue collar town, has had riots going beck way before the Bonus MArcher days. And they had a TON of experience during the Vietnam war protests.
          I do not think they could have found a town with more experience controlling riots in CA, with the possible exception of  Berkeley.
          this is all just Another Day At Work for these Oakland cops and nothing OO is going to do will change that.
          The most deluded of their delusions--and there's plenty-- is that theyre making ANY impact at all on the 1%. None of the 1% live in Oakland and if you think different then just post aa picture of the house. You live in the BAy Area, (Igrew up and lived there for decades)you know where the really wealthy people live: Blackhawk, Hilsborough, Piedmont, Marin County. Thats where the Larry Ellisons and George Lucases live.  The richest people in Oakland are just upper middle class.
          They really could impacct the 1% by going to these places but in picking the toughest town i the BAy Area with the toughest cops in the Bay Area you know theyre just focusing on the best place to fight.
          Keep up the good work, edrie, I get tired of arguing with their ultra rigid inflexible  ideology. Everybody's wrong but them, Its always everybody's fault but theirs

          Happy just to be alive

          by exlrrp on Mon Feb 06, 2012 at 05:58:30 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

        •  To compare disrespect to the abuser (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          elwior

          with disrespect to the abused is completely wrong.  I agree completely about the use of language by an abuser, but we're talking about the opposite, an abused person disrespecting their abuser, which is a completely different situation.

          There revolution will not be televised. But it will be blogged, a lot. Probably more so than is necessary.

          by AoT on Mon Feb 06, 2012 at 09:51:36 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  the protesters are NOT being abused when they (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Evolutionary

            stand in a large crowd and scream in the face of the police.  i have heard the term "scum" used more than one video - i have heard phrases that, in quieter tones, would be reasonable, but screaming at the top of 1000 lungs "THE WHOLE WORLD IS WATCHING" - when the videos will be then used to misrepresent or partially represent what is happening is unfair by any standards and is abusive to the police who are standing there and "taking it" without responding.

            i have seen these tapes over and over where the crowd/mob keeps screaming insults directly into the faces of the police officers assigned to control the crowd.  the ones pulled out either jump out into the street and confront the police or are the ones who are "inciting" the crowd (the orange hat guy the other day was changing the chant and the black guy in the world war II helmet had just said something directly confrontational to the officer when he was pulled out of the crowd.

            AoT,  PLEASE go look at the tapes again - and analyze what you see as if it were a movie and you were a critic.  take off your point of view and look unbiased at these tapes.

            some of them will show inappropriate actions by SOME police, some of them will show inappropriate actions by SOME in the crowd.  this is NOT all black or white and until everyone realizes this and starts to work toward a solution, there will be no positive outcome from these "occupations".

            i am pleased to see on the oakland occupy site that more and more people are decrying the behavior of those who want violence and confrontation.  more need to step up to the plate and do more to separate the two groups if the group is to succeed.

            comparisons to the 60s and the civil rights movement don't work here - why not?  because in the 60s we had specific targeted goals that were achievable with legislative action.

            occupy has yet to offer any thing other than vague ideology.  occupy needs to now focus on WHAT legislation is needed to change the situation with the banks and financial institutions.  THEN they need to work with politicians to get those laws enacted and/or enforced.

            EdriesShop is currently reloading! More to come in the next few days! - Is GlowNZ back yet?

            by edrie on Mon Feb 06, 2012 at 12:24:25 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  Protesters are most certainly being abused by the (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Evolutionary

              police, and the language they use is a reaction to that.  This is the OPD, they make a habit of abusing people.  Sure, they weren't abusing people right then, but that doesn't make them any less of an abusing force.  Those calm police are the same damn ones that beat my friend and neighbors.

              There revolution will not be televised. But it will be blogged, a lot. Probably more so than is necessary.

              by AoT on Mon Feb 06, 2012 at 12:34:55 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  AoT, i am NOT saying that SOME opd have (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Caipirinha, Evolutionary

                acted badly - but this is a two way street here - when protesters TRY to provoke, then getting a "rise" out of the police who are the ones behaving badly is not a surprise to anyone watching.

                this is a two way street - events that happened yesterday, last week, a month ago - those events sit and simmer within those who are asked to stand there and "take" it - on both sides.

                what i am calling for is a defusing of this situation and a real search for solutions.  the continuing protests aren't doing that.

                at some point, the demonstrators either have to express what they want out of this or interest will disappear.  then, all will be for naught.  

                focus on the long term and how to repair the situation and fix the damage done by both sides.

                EdriesShop is currently reloading! More to come in the next few days! - Is GlowNZ back yet?

                by edrie on Mon Feb 06, 2012 at 01:27:10 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  I don't think that de-escalation is an option (0+ / 0-)

                  with the OPD.  What that would look like is protesters getting attacked just as much but no violence from their side.  Just to be clear, I don't think that violence is useful or a good idea.  I do think it's wrong to point to the people throwing bottles in Oaland and blame them for police violence and the focus on police violence.

                  There revolution will not be televised. But it will be blogged, a lot. Probably more so than is necessary.

                  by AoT on Mon Feb 06, 2012 at 02:33:06 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  the de-escalation that could be useful would (2+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    Caipirinha, Evolutionary

                    be to tone down the rhetoric and to seek other means - like legal challenges to police actions.

                    in cases of legitimate brutality, a lawsuit against the city has more impact than more protests in the long run.

                    there has to be a different way or MORE ways to get results than just doing street gatherings.  i'm not saying that street gatherings don't work - but to be effective, there has to be a specific rallying reason, not alleged incidents that can easily be de-bunked like the one video tape i took apart second by second in a different diary.

                    had i been a juror on a case using that video, i would be left with no choice but to exonerate the police due to the behavior of the young man who was arrested.  i wouldn't have LIKED saying that his being hit by batons was justified, but, unfortunately, because of his own behavior, those actions were done according to legal police policies (used to stop violent subjects from escaping).

                    this isn't simple - it doesn't have an easy answer.  the responsibility lies with those who are protesting as much as it lies with the police.

                    at some point, the view needs to move from the trees and onto the forest - and how to best find a solution to this confrontation.

                    my gut feeling is that until there are specific goals that are expressed (instead of vague abstract ideas), there will be a continuation of the current situation with less and less people showing up each time.

                    EdriesShop is currently reloading! More to come in the next few days! - Is GlowNZ back yet?

                    by edrie on Mon Feb 06, 2012 at 02:47:10 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  OPD is already under a legal order (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      LucyandByron

                      that they have virtually ignored.  One of the things it restricts is what they can use at protests.  They've consistently used tear gas even though it is not allowed.  And the case was settles nine years ago.

                      They kettled people, refused to let them disperse when they were ordered to do so, then attacked them with tear gas, rubber bullets, beanbag rounds and flashbangs.  Let's be clear on another thing, the cops aren't from Oakland, not most of them.  Not only are about 85% of the OPD from outside the city, not to mention the fact that police are called in from other towns as well.

                      In theory non-violent protest might have been better, but I'm not the person you have to convince of that.  I'm not throwing anything at the cops and I'm not going to be able to convince the people who are that it's a bad idea.  The violence from the cops means that there is a select group of people who show up to protests, the ones who still show up knowing there will most likely be police violence.  And those folks are far more likely to get pissed and throw shit at the cops or fight back when they are arrested.

                      There revolution will not be televised. But it will be blogged, a lot. Probably more so than is necessary.

                      by AoT on Mon Feb 06, 2012 at 03:04:04 PM PST

                      [ Parent ]

    •  the fact that you're more upset about a word (26+ / 0-)

      than the actual brutal violence OPD metes out regularly to both OO protesters and the residents of the non-rich parts of oakland, speaks volumes.

    •  Think of it as "File Transfer Protocol" (11+ / 0-)

      This new Oakland option sounds like a brilliant workaround -- one no longer has to remain non-mobile.

      It is actions like this that will expand Occupy this spring and summer.

    •  Absolute bullshit, disrespecting an organization (19+ / 0-)

      that physically attacks you is not violent.  This is a basic fucking concept.  If I say I hate some organization it isn't violence, it is an exclamation of emotion.  Violence is an action, not an emotion.

      There revolution will not be televised. But it will be blogged, a lot. Probably more so than is necessary.

      by AoT on Sun Feb 05, 2012 at 06:38:05 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  You hear the sizzle but don't notice the steak (7+ / 0-)

      Sometiems you have to be provocative. If we have to walk on the eggshells of having to be palatable to "middle America" (which can unintentionally mean white America) we may handcuff ourselves.

      Sometimes we have to do things that make many in the mainstream uncomfortable. It's not entirely dissimilar to the civil rights movement of the 60s, or the gay rights movement, or feminism. We have to be willing to do things our way and on our own terms, even if it pricks at some folks' sensibilities.

      liberal bias = failure to validate or sufficiently flatter the conservative narrative on any given subject

      by RockyMtnLib on Sun Feb 05, 2012 at 07:34:48 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  your post is extremely violent (8+ / 0-)

         sorry, if you direct rude words against police, you are not harming anyone, and you are not endangering anyone other than yourself

         if you write a post claiming that directing rude words against police is "not non-violent," i.e, is violent, you are making a moral equivalence, however broad, between (a) smashing someone's head in with a stick, or blowing their limbs off with a bomb, and (b) using bad words to express one's outrage at their doing so. Unlike the actual using of bad words, making that equivalence most definitely DOES harm others, because it is precisely what makes it possible for police and journalists to claim that they are not the ones initiating violence, that the victims of beatings and gassings are to blame despite the fact that they have done nothing to hurt another human being.

           I think that people like you who make the kind of interventions you just made and make the arguments you just made are you themselves partly responsible for the violence.

      •  David, this is texbook rationalization. And (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        rcnewton

        extreme exaggeration.  Has someone been blowing your limbs off with a bomb?

        What is it that you don't get about non-violence?  Not heroic-looking enough for you?

        •  I didn't say it was (0+ / 0-)

           I said that the word "violence" covers such things as smashing in heads and blowing people up, and therefore, insisting that someone who uses strong language is engaging in "violence", and thus drawing an equivalence between those things, is deeply stupid, and endangers people.

             I understand quite a bit about non-violence. You don't seem to. To start with you don't seem to understand that even among non-violent activists, what constitutes violence has always been a matter of debate.

            what always shocks me is how little those who want to claim the mantle of non-violence seem interested in learning its history, or for that matter what people like Gandhi actually said and did. It's obvious you haven't. In any campaign of non-violence, there will always be people who go beyond the limits you set, WHATEVER those limits will be. It's unavoidable. It always happens. It is also unavoidable and always happens that the other side will use their actions to discredit the non-violent, or more strictly non-violent, majority. The latter or their spokesmen will then be asked to condemn the actions of those who went beyond the limits, denounce them, accept that their actions discredit the entire cause, and, next, comes the demand for peace police to suppress them (which invariably ultimately means the use of violent tactics to enforce non-violence, however much everyone initially claims it won't.) Successful movements are those that ABSOLUTELY REFUSE TO FALL INTO THIS TRAP. Gandhi for instance refused to denounce even those who blew up trains. Or, what he would actually say was that those who oppose injustice non-violently are morally superior to those who do it violently, but those who do it violently are still morally superior to those who do nothing at all.

      •  I want a police force. A good one. (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Evolutionary

        I agree that the OPD is a local issue that really needs attention. I mean since 10 years ago.

        I have to wonder at your personal relationships if this is the way you think. We are a community and we need standards. The OPD problem is all about those standards - there are buried in the basement and no one gets to see them.

        Professor Michael Nagler is a personal friend of mine, who cofounded the UC Berkeley Department of Peace and Conflict studies. He is currently president of the Metta Center for Nonviolence Education.

        He says

        As a non violent actor I will:
        *never confuse the person with the problem.
        *never use harmful means
        *never accept indignity - or inflict it on others.
        *always think of the long term consequences of my thoughts, words and deeds.
        *always cling to the truth looking for concrete, constructive and positive ways and means

        supported by the belief that all life is an interconnected whole. Good energy will always produce good results - in the end. It is possible to meet the legitimate needs of all parties

        That makes more sense to me than your claim that my comment is violent. A police force is not optional. The one we have is rotten.

        I would rather OO used the most powerful tool of OWS and turned the cameras on the police wherever they work. Personally I would look for the good stuff because in this town you will inevitably get the bad.

        Then get the bad fired.

        They are not doing the job this community needs. We have had all sorts of outsiders tell us how to fix the OPD and it isn't happening. So we need to make it happen. OO could be national heroes if they could force the OPD to actually reform themselves.

        And THAT would be one hell of a powerful and positive message.

    •  Not going to help. (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      rcnewton, Evolutionary

      I agree with FTP you probably won't get any support from the police.  When OWS was in full bloom in L.A. the Cops were everywhere.  They were HELPING, and offering help.
      the police were part of OWS in L.A.    I kept thinking to myself, these guys know it's about them too.  They too, are in a union, and they too earn a living wage, and pretty much anybody earning above minimum wage is the target of the 1% or the wealthy retired.

      So, FTP is probably going to not help.  At least come up with a new name like FTOP   The one percent ?

      "Hey, with religion you can't get just a little pregnant"

      by EarTo44 on Mon Feb 06, 2012 at 07:10:39 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  The OPD *never* helped (0+ / 0-)

        And never would.  Oakland is not LA and to expect the same response is absurd.

        There revolution will not be televised. But it will be blogged, a lot. Probably more so than is necessary.

        by AoT on Mon Feb 06, 2012 at 10:05:50 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

    •  Agree...you can't stand for peace... (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      rcnewton, Caipirinha, Kamakhya

      ...and simultaneously poke your antagonist (OPD) in the eye (F*ck the Police)....that's either ignorance or baiting.  Either way it is a dead end .

      Our nations quality of life is based on the rightousness of its people.

      by kalihikane on Mon Feb 06, 2012 at 09:08:33 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  For some reason, people directed by superficial (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      LucyandByron, Evolutionary

      optics are very sensitive to the spoken word.  Speaking is not a predicate to violent action.  You'd think we might have learned that from Iraq where Saddam Hussein's boastful talk lured the U.S. into a full-scale assault. (yes, I know, there were those who needed no excuse to bomb).

      Our agents of law enforcement should not be permitted to interpret harsh words or criticism of themselves as an "assault."  There is no reason to respect authority when its behavior is disrespectful of the citizenry, who are, after all, those who govern.
      That our agents of law enforcement have not been properly taught about the governing role of citizens and their own subordination tell us that their immediate superiors have not been properly schooled.

      Segregated neighborhoods are not necessarily the result of exclusive behaviors on the part of residents.  Indeed, it is quite possible for outside interests to propagate a sense of fear and promote shunning for their own purposes.  What purposes?  Well, to mention two examples: suburban residences can demand a higher price if they don't have to compete with housing in the inner city and the agents of law enforcement enjoy having a population that can be abused/exploited at will.  We should never forget that not all benefits are material or measurable in dollars and cents.  Some people get high on playing overlord.

      I have only ever been stopped by cops 4 times in my 71 years.  The second time, the only one that's relevant to this topic, was when a friend and I were walking through an historically black neighborhood on a Sunday morning, taking pictures of some of the houses.  We were intercepted by a police "crime prevention" van whose occupants told us the neighborhood was too dangerous for us "ladies" to be walking through.  I told them, "you've got to be kidding" and the next morning I lodged a complaint with the City Manager--a man who'd just hired a black assistant City Manager and then had to resign because he was unwilling to fire the assistant as was being demanded by the power elite.

      It is very difficult to make fair hiring decisions, when you're going to be fired for them.

      Triangulation comes in handy in so many ways.

      People to Wall Street: "LET OUR MONEY GO"

      by hannah on Mon Feb 06, 2012 at 10:04:40 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Occupy Oakland PD could take this on (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Evolutionary

        But only by having standars that support the right kind of police action, and only with support (or at least protection) from some folks in power.

        Supervision is mostly inspect what you expect. The folks beneath usually have more knowledge than those above but less skill. As skills improve folks get promoted.

        Hiring is mostly about hiring good attitude and traing the skill.

        OOPD could use the camera to track the entire OPD in all its actions. Well - any of them, anyway. I would suggest looking for the good stuff so a good standard can be established that is actually being delivered. The bad stuff will appear all on its own. Fire it.

        The OPD has all sorts of outsiders and top brass try to fix it. It needs fixing from the bottom, by the locals taking an active interest - getting to know every individual in the force from top to bottom. Welcome the newcomers. Do what we can to make them able to do good police work. And just build the case against the fuck ups. We have plenty, all the way to the mayors office. She simply does not have the skills for the job of mayor. I thought she was great as a council member - very responsive, very active, and tried really hard. But when you are mayor you have to set high standards on your own. She has been tested and found lacking.

        At no point do I see any benefit to cursing anyone, or anything. Curse the actions to your hearts content, but never curse the person. They have a right to a life, even if they don't have the skills to do a job.

    •  totally off the rails (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Evolutionary

      Cops are mostly union brethren and sisters and underpaid as well. I wish Occupy would stick to the income inequality message.

      Just as abortion has nothing to do with mammograms, police violence is a separate issue from income inequality. And, in my opinion, the former won't be getting better until the latter does and there is less distortion in the government.

      But, hey, you know, whatever.

      GOP: The Party of Acid rain, Abortion of the American Dream, and Amnesty for Wall Street.

      by Attorney at Arms on Mon Feb 06, 2012 at 10:26:50 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  FTP should be named For The People. (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Kamakhya, muddy boots, Evolutionary

      Walking neighborhoods with voter registration forms will do more good than cursing at the police.

      Nature created the human race, but humans created racism.

      by GrannyOPhilly on Mon Feb 06, 2012 at 11:14:06 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  It didn't have to be that way. (54+ / 0-)

    Occupy Detroit was embraced. The media was positive, the cops left them alone, people donated and helped.   As a result, they have become a recognized community force.  They are protecting homes from foreclosures, fixing up abandoned homes for the homeless, and working on all kinds of "put your money where your mouth is" projects.  

    If the police in other cities had not gone gestapo on occupiers, I'm sure they would have turned out the same way.   "community organizers"

    If it can't have a colonscopy, it has no Constitutional rights ~ Randi Rhodes

    by dkmich on Sun Feb 05, 2012 at 05:16:36 PM PST

  •  Take back the night... from the cops. n/t (20+ / 0-)

    I don't blame Christians. I blame Stupid. Which sadly is a much more popular religion these days.

    by detroitmechworks on Sun Feb 05, 2012 at 05:18:43 PM PST

  •  hard to get your economic and political (5+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    ozsea1, Evolutionary, orson, blueoasis, kyril

    message out thru the clubs and tear gas.

    Step one became the police, their choice mostly.

    From those who live like leeches on the people's lives, We must take back our land again, America!...Langston Hughes

    by KenBee on Sun Feb 05, 2012 at 05:46:10 PM PST

  •  Did I miss something? What's the (7+ / 0-)

    brilliant new tactic? Going into neighborhoods of black folk with the protests?

    IDK. It's good people are shouting support from "the tenements", or whatever. But I'm unclear on why the OPD wouldn't "dare kettle protesters" in "this neighborhood".

    Ugh.

    I think the OPD will do whatever the fuck they want. Perhaps especially in "that neighborhood" - ask somebody who lives there about that.

    IDK.

    I just feel...icky about this diary and I'm not sure I caught whatever the brilliant strategy is.

    I've become re-radicalized. Thanks a lot you bunch of oligarchical fascist sons-of-bitches. But once again, I have no choice. Bring it the fuck on.

    by mdmslle on Sun Feb 05, 2012 at 05:47:30 PM PST

    •  You feel ICKY? Like you have been out (5+ / 0-)

      running and are sweating?  Or like you stepped in something?  Icky?

      #OccupyOMC - "We have a permit, its called The Constitution".

      by Evolutionary on Sun Feb 05, 2012 at 06:47:28 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Ok. The diary offends me in an odd way. (4+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        kyril, hooper, Sylv, rcnewton

        For the reasons I stated in my comment. I'm not keen on the references to "that neighborhood" and "support from their tenements" and the paragraph about how OO was brilliant to go into "the hood", growing the movement brilliantly by meeting the " sympathetic disenfranchised" (or something) and how the police, I guess, wouldn't dare "start anything" in "that neighborhood" (why, I have no idea).

        Yes. It's icky. Like I stepped in something. There's a disgusting "anthropological" air to this diary and I don't like it.

        I've become re-radicalized. Thanks a lot you bunch of oligarchical fascist sons-of-bitches. But once again, I have no choice. Bring it the fuck on.

        by mdmslle on Sun Feb 05, 2012 at 07:12:01 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Anthropological? You mean like the study of (4+ / 0-)

          human culture?  Or like Anthropological as in you think this is being directed at a particular ethnicity?  If so, I don't think that was the purpose of the march.  It was to connect with the rest of the 99% in their neighborhood.  I also don't see the word, "hood" used in the Diary.

          The cultural makeup of the neighborhood includes many impoverished black people, that's true.  Should we exclude all black neighborhoods?  Just stick to poor white neighborhoods perhaps?  The folks in West Oakland have suffered under the rule of the 1%, as have we all.  It is a good sign that the folks in the neighborhood agree and understand.  And, it isn't like the makeup of the members of Occupy Oakland are all white.  

          I wouldn't want to put words in your mouth.  Please explain.

          Reaching out is a good thing.

          #OccupyOMC - "We have a permit, its called The Constitution".

          by Evolutionary on Sun Feb 05, 2012 at 07:33:33 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

        •  As someone who until two weeks ago lived there (10+ / 0-)

          I have to say that West Oakland is one of the poorest, if not the poorest, neighborhood in the Bay Area.  It is being heavily impacted by gentrification and has been attacked for a long time by the police.  There has been regular outreach in the neighborhood and a lot of people involved with OO live in the neighborhood, many of them grew up there.  I can understand why you have a problem with the way that the diary described things, but the actual action is exactly what need to happen.

          There revolution will not be televised. But it will be blogged, a lot. Probably more so than is necessary.

          by AoT on Sun Feb 05, 2012 at 07:53:53 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

  •  The Brilliant Strategy Is..... (34+ / 0-)

    visibility.  The brilliant strategy is showing up......again & again & again & again.  In every neighborhood, in every city, in every state.  Over & over again.

    We are still allowed to walk on sidewalks in this country are we not?   How is that illegal?  

    75 Occupiers quietly walking thru my neighborhood would get my attention.  I would join up instantly.

  •  What is exactly new here? (4+ / 0-)

    I'm not even sure what you did that was different than you've done before. There was so much discussion of the import of what happened that I don't understand what actually happened that night. ::confused::

    Frank Luntz: "Occupy is having an impact on what the American people think of capitalism.”

    by DeanObama on Sun Feb 05, 2012 at 06:08:46 PM PST

  •  Here's an idea for you... (9+ / 0-)

    Take to the streets... IN CARS.  Who said that protesting had to be done on foot?  Once kettled and surrounded by police who prevent movement, are armed with batons and pepper spray, and disciplined like iron, the protest exercise becomes more nostalgic than effective.

    Remember that scene in Fahrenheit 911 when Michael Moore cruised Capitol Hill in an ice cream truck with a loud speaker?  It's not hard to build loudspeakers.  Equip as many cars with signs and loudspeakers as is feasible.  Other cars can follow them carrying signs or with people hanging out the windows and cheering.  Take a slow parade-speed cruise through the streets and around and around.

    What good do batons and pepper spray and skirmish lines do then?  To stop it, the police need to call out cruisers and motorcycle cops to issue tickets.  No matter how well they do it, that snarls traffic.  Way, way more if they arrest people and have to wait for tow trucks to take cars to impound.  Meanwhile, the parade can remobilize to another street.

    The utility of snarling traffic, either this way or through the more usual street marches and gatherings hasn't been considered.  Police barricading stops protesters, but it also stops everybody else in the community that needs to get around them.  Wise choices should be made of the places to gather with a thought to making it difficult for the police to barricade because of commercial traffic concerns.

    •  Kind of expensive. The police (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      rcnewton

      could impound your vehicle as well as arrest you. Parading without a permit, I think would be the charge.

      "The object of persecution is persecution. The object of torture is torture. The object of power is power. Now do you begin to understand me?" ~Orwell, "1984"

      by Lily O Lady on Mon Feb 06, 2012 at 06:40:18 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Oakland also has a number of laws (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Evolutionary

        specifically aimed at people using vehicles for impromptu gathering and would be able to impound the cars for an extended period even if no one was convicted of anything.  It already happened with the sound truck at one of the protests.

        There revolution will not be televised. But it will be blogged, a lot. Probably more so than is necessary.

        by AoT on Mon Feb 06, 2012 at 12:12:52 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

  •  FTP? (7+ / 0-)

    Oh my, terrible tactic.  Yes, we in the Bay Area will now fairly debate/analyze the "FTP issue" in depth.  Sigh.

    If OO is now about FTP, then the police and the 1% won.  The Bay Area public could give a shit about a "he/said she/said" FTP argument, especially since OO has turned violent.  OO Oakland was savaged in the SF Chronicle after the last debacle.  OO has lost the public.

  •  Some words from Arundhati Roy (14+ / 0-)

    I was pleased as punch to read about this peaceful expression of our first amendment and the neighborhood reaction to it. My latest issue of The Progressive magazine has an interview with Arundhati Roy and it brought to mind something she said:

    I don't think the [Occupy Movement] is only about occupying physical territory, but about reigniting a new political imagination.

    snip

    The movement...should become a protean movement of ideas, as well as action, where the element of surprise remains with the protesters....It has to keep reimagining itself, because holding territory may not be something the movement will be allowed to do in a state as powerful and violent as the United States.

    Good for Occupy Oakland for having this kind of imagination. I'll end my comment with a few more words from Ms. Roy:

    The people who created the crisis in the first place will not be the ones that come up with a solution.

    Strange days indeed. ~John Lennon

    by joanil on Sun Feb 05, 2012 at 07:10:06 PM PST

  •  How about F**k the "Anarchists" (5+ / 0-)

    and their childish, cowardly message-hijacking?

    Disown these ignorant punks

    -------------------------------------------------------
    Take your protein pills and put your helmet on

    by SFOrange on Sun Feb 05, 2012 at 07:12:05 PM PST

    •  How about f*ck the people (4+ / 0-)

      that want to purge the movement of the people without whom the movement wouldn't exist.  

      Purge! Purge! Purge!

      There revolution will not be televised. But it will be blogged, a lot. Probably more so than is necessary.

      by AoT on Sun Feb 05, 2012 at 07:57:36 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  if it wasn't for anarchists (7+ / 0-)

      there wouldn't be an Occupy
      I know. I was there at the beginning
      We started this thing.
      If you don't like us, why don't you leave?

      •  When some say anarchists... they mean just those (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        think blue

        who are into the Black Flag violence stuff... that ignores plenty of others who identify as anarchists in the alternate sense of wanting a world not controlled by authorities who neither deserve their position and who do more harm than good and distrusting authority on principle and wishing to free humanity from the need for most forms of it... AND also the means of pointing this out and promoting it are not automatically violent or even after being pushed... still stay on the non-destructive side of things. or try to. but that is boring and not newsworthy.

        What does "Anarchist" mean anyway?

        In the 19th century and after... "anarchists" came to be seen as synonymous with bomb throwers trying to assassinate whoever was in power... directly doing away with the "...'archies" whatever form they came in. And to this day that is the image we have of them: a cartoon pastiche instead of the reality of a much wider set of positions and identities back then.... Today's "Anarchists" seem to still have an image problem and are automatically just dismissed as a bunch of destructive crazies big on rage... one the violent fringe is happy to reinforce... to the detriment of any progress in wider acceptance of what it could mean in freeing people and society from unresponsive power elites. "Anarchist" is just a very loaded word... and those who are more organized have always had the power to define the term.

        I personally believe more in the value of organized democratically responsive transparent authority than perhaps a lot of self identified "anarchists" might... And the very feature that makes any shade of anarchy kind of self defeating is to abhor too much "organization" that leads to forms of authority to keep it going... which is the eternal conundrum of anarchy in general... and with that generating good spin and PR...
        Monty Python did more for wider interest with one comedy sketch that included the term "Anarcho syndicalist collective..." than much of anything in the past half century...
        Add in the internet, twitter, Facebook and who knows what and some can see this actually makes forms of constructive anarchy workable in some situations. Individuals governing collectively in many ways. Sounds sort of pinko.

        So in the end... is it true what they say about Libertarians and Anarchists?... a lot of overlap and a lot of unrealistic understanding of human nature and how the world works?... I prefer to just say that we are all suffering from an incomplete understanding of what is going on... some of us though are working with a much more incomplete awareness than others... that is not to say that some shades of opinion if not most do have important insights... that others do not... the problem is that they also lack awareness of a good few more that would temper what they see at least a bit...

        Total Royalist-authoritarian types cannot compromise and the other extreme which looks a lot like a pure form of Anarcho-Libertarianism is also not into finding middle ground either... so in the end that is why Leninism sort of destroyed any chance of some sort of social bargain that did the most good for the most people... it simply circled around and became a form of authoritarianism and crypto royalty... with the new aristocracy as sort of party gang members sheathed in political double talk.

        So more than a hint of royalty or a hint of total individualism... levelers goes haywire... but the remedies of each viewpoint cannot see the deficiencies of their cures... I suppose all of these issues are rooted in Animal pecking orders, mating status etc. and for humans the playground politics we endured in elementary school or the neighborhood and then into High school cliques and its forms of pecking orders... up to College and "Big man on Campus" vs those further down the status ladder. But it seems that we have always had this but usually found it possible to have working communal lifestyles in smaller traditional groupings... our distant ancestors had a form of it.. most Native Americans had a more informal egalitarian governing setup... larger groupings tend to get co-opted by authoritarians eventually... and building in safeguards to keep it in check is what democracy is all about.

        And unfortunately as peaceful and accommodating as village and tribe groupings tend to be most of the time it still fell down when dealing with outside groups... and suddenly a War chief or a Roman Tyrant was needed in times of crisis... and Authority figures like to have a more permanent set of crisis to justify keeping their prerogatives and controls. Which is where Anarchists and revolutionaries can become necessary... the more the grabbers want to stay on top and the more they delay a power correction the more they guarantee a new crisis that they are the cause of. Solutions will become the next problem if they do not get out of the way when the main problems have been addressed.

        The pure authority types and the pure anarchy people see that as some sort of unstable compromise with dysfunction and disaster... and have a strong abhorrence for the opposite extreme... so much so that they see democracy as a form of treachery... one side letting commies and poor people grab too much... and the other side seeing any sign of wealth and power differential or disparity as just being on the slippery slope to oligarchy.

        But there are tolerant versions of Anarchy and of the opposite... which have a bit more authority in the mix which values rewarding positive leadership more than most would but within reason... The trouble is both seem to require inherent self restraint but the purist lean that is always there will push and keep pushing and if they have their way they poison the situation eventually by unbalancing the equation. Doctrine and belief begin to dictate more and more with feedback from outside the bubble ignored.

        So I do hope that most people prefer a live and let live approach and one that sees value in moderate use of authority and workable levels of self governance to the point of it being borderline anarchy-lite...
        There is a middle way that works for everything... that is not a cop-out or pandering to the enemy etc....

        Pogo & Murphy's Law, every time. Also "Trust but verify" - St. Ronnie (hah...)

        by IreGyre on Mon Feb 06, 2012 at 05:32:49 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  We're all anarchists (0+ / 0-)

        Anarchists love people and subvert authority that cannot justify itself.  Does that not include all but the sociopaths among the ruling class?

    •  F the white kids (0+ / 0-)

      Who dress in black and stir shit up in poor cities, then go home to their warm houses somewhere along the BART system.

      Go fuck shit up in SF, Orinda and Walnut Creek, where you actually live.

      "Work for something because it is good, not just because it stands a chance to succeed." -- Vaclav Havel

      by greendem on Mon Feb 06, 2012 at 11:31:14 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  I'm glad you can make assumptions about where (0+ / 0-)

        people live.  A good number of the people do live in Oakland, in West Oakland in fact.  And they definitely aren't just white, there were a number of different races represented.

        There revolution will not be televised. But it will be blogged, a lot. Probably more so than is necessary.

        by AoT on Mon Feb 06, 2012 at 12:32:17 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

  •  "Welcoming" the police for marching in solidarity (12+ / 0-)

    was a joking remark that drew cheers (I was watching the live stream). The phalanx of police officers following the march soon melted away to nearby vans. Whether that had been planned or was the result of the "welcome" I'm not sure, but I thought it was excellent. They are also the 99% whether they like/think about it or not.

    Having watched live streams of the Occupy Movement since the infamous incident of Don the Bus Driver vs. the Amarillo 13, we feel a personal connection to Occupy Oakland and San Diego and wish them well!

    "If I could have one wish, I would have people accept the importance of our common humanity." --Pres. Bill Clinton, The Today Show, 09/21/06

    by desordre remplir on Sun Feb 05, 2012 at 07:21:23 PM PST

  •  There's more to West Oakland... (10+ / 0-)

    Sadly, the artists, writers, musicians and performers who made San Francisco such an exciting place to live in the 20th Century are being priced out of the housing market there. many of them are moving to West Oakland. The streets are not as safe, but the rents are cheap and you can get a lot of space for your money. What North Beach was in the 1950's and the Haight Ashbury District was in the 1960's, West Oakland is becoming in the 21st Century.

  •  The tactic is new to you, but not new to activists (8+ / 0-)

    on the West Coast for ... decades now. there have been many marches that went into neighborhoods in the exact same manner as this one, also addressing police brutality, including in Seattle's Central District, where I attended similar marches in the early 90's.  

  •  It's not quite new for Occupy Oakland... (5+ / 0-)

    There was an “anti-brutality march” way back on October 29 (before the Tactical Action Committee came up with the less-PC “FTP” label). That one turned south of Grand, closer to the heart of West Oakland—and also got an enthusiastic reception from residents there. But OPD very nearly kettled us—there are only five bridges over 980 back to downtown, and OPD tried to block them all. We only escaped when the “bike bloc” managed to kettle the police themselves before they could reach the last bridge.

    I think it was that experience that’s made Occupy Oakland hesitant to go into West Oakland again. Even last night's march was extremely cautious, staying close to the freeway and going north instead of south (where there are short, wide underpasses instead of long, narrow bridges). So while West Oakland may be a major source of potential support, any time a march crosses 980 it's taking a major risk of getting attacked by OPD.

  •  Fuck the Police? They only had one bad album (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    hooper, CornSyrupAwareness

    (hat tip to early 90s graffiti in a Theatre Calgary bathroom stall)

    "now this is not the end, it is not even the beginning of the end. But it is, perhaps, the end of the beginning." W. Churchill

    by Thor Heyerdahl on Sun Feb 05, 2012 at 08:50:12 PM PST

  •  Without getting the police/military, there has (5+ / 0-)

    been no successful revolution. Ever.

    The idea of de-centralizing protest, and bringing it to every street is where we have to go. Make it ubiquitous, to the point even politicians and media celebs who never touch pavement, only riding in limousines, notice it, then you've got something which shakes up the whole establishment.

    But playing into the 1%'s hope that they'll keep enough armed men protecting their interests, while the general populace comes to, at least, evenly, regard protestors as enemies... that's just political suicide.

    You might as well surrender now and save everyone a lot of trouble.


    Today, if you exist... that's already suspicious.

    by Jim P on Sun Feb 05, 2012 at 08:52:15 PM PST

  •  Peace in my beloved Oakland. (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    ctami, elwior, hooper, OleHippieChick
  •  Diffuse Force Counters Power (4+ / 0-)

    One of the most important tools the the Occupy Movement has is mass. But if you concentrate that mass in very small areas you give the police a target. You make it easy for them to round you up, to abuse you.

    Not so if you keep your mass diffuse. If you never collect in large groups it can become prohibitively expensive to make arrests.

    The Occupy Movement should establish groups to watch the police from a distance and stay out of their way, while bringing their message to the public. This will eventually wear them out and deplete their resources. It's important to make their resource-intensive nature work against them, while never letting them rest while the message is going out.

  •  I thought FTP (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    BlueDragon, Sylv

    was "File Transfer Protocol."

    Which actually brings me to a point, covered here along the sidelines: when the police started taking down "Occupy" encampments, it seemed a silly gesture to me, because, like the internet itself, the fact that the movement didn't need a locus of attention in real space/time was kind of evident to me.

    There are creative ways of bringing this into being that haven't even been tried yet.  Not that have any kind of an answer to that yet - I don't. Yet.

    But I have hunches...

  •  We have a small group that demonstrates (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    AoT, Evolutionary

    on our Peace Corner here in Melboring Floorduh every Friday eve. We're taking to meandering the monthly downtown Friday Fest doing flash mob MIC checks wearing our 99% t-shirts and/or small sandwich board signs. There are only a few of us willing to go public with anything.
    As I mentioned in a comment somewhere, we have a generation gap problem with GAs being run by the younger people. They like planning things that, so far, haven't been done and they like having meetings but not so much direct action. There is no actual long-term Occupy here. They're gaining the title, Keyboard Commandos. The ole farts are hitting the street.

    #OWS #Occupy: Exposing US police brutality to the entire world.

    by OleHippieChick on Mon Feb 06, 2012 at 10:03:49 AM PST

  •  Criticisms of the Occupy movement will continue (0+ / 0-)

    to increase the longer it resists being co-opted by the Obama Re-Election effort.

    They said "Fuck the Police"!  Bad Occupiers!  Bad tactics!  Bad Movement!  Black Bloc!  Panthers!  Violence!

    Why, the 1%'s media needn't do anything at all:  Just sit back and let the "mainstream left" run with the ball.

    Only this time it's not going to work.

    It isn't that Obama hasn't Changed anything; It's that his actions advance the 1%'s interests.

    by Johnathan Ivan on Mon Feb 06, 2012 at 12:07:04 PM PST

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