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Not all doctrine is created equal.
On September 21, 2011, a man's life ended. His death was not natural; it was not a product of anyone's god; rather, the drug cocktails that caused the heart of Troy Davis to stop beating were purely the result of human artifice.

Davis was a convicted murderer who was put to death by the State of Georgia as punishment for the crimes of which he was found guilty. Like so many other death row inmates who were wrongly convicted of—and sometimes even executed for—crimes they did not commit, Troy Davis may well have been innocent. There was no physical evidence proving his crime, and many of the eywitnesses upon whom Davis' conviction depended later recanted their testimony, citing undue pressure from prosecutors to finger the person they had apparently already decided was responsible. In the end, however, whether or not Troy Davis was guilty or not is merely salt in the wound of a far bigger outrage.

The Catholic Church officially opposes capital punishment. This doctrine is in the same vein as those opposing abortion, birth control, and physician-assisted suicide: church doctrine dictates that life begins at conception and is a gift from God. Consequently, it is beyond the scope of any soul, no matter how high the earthly authority, to terminate a human life. It does not matter if it is legal, and it does not matter if the rationale is to relieve suffering: the taking of life is God's department, not ours.

Yet in the middle of September, as opposition to the impending execution of Troy Davis reached a fever pitch and a singular opportunity presented itself for the Church to not just call for an act of mercy, but support a key element of doctrine, the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops was silent as the grave. Yes, some local Catholic bishops in Georgia did support the conscience of their doctrine by calling for a reprieve, but the USCCB, the organization most responsible for lobbying and policy advocacy on behalf of the Holy See here in the United States, sat idly by. The execution of a possibly innocent man was not enough to stir the bishops into action. But birth control? That's a different story altogether.

The directive of President Obama's Health and Human Services Department that requires employers to cover the cost of contraceptive prescriptions was met with outrage by the USCCB. Never before, they argued, had citizens been forced to pay for things that violated their religious conscience. Not that the Church would have been forced to cover the cost of contraceptives: churches who objected receive an exemption under the directive. The Bishops even rejected a compromise that allowed women who work for affiliated organizations, such as nonprofits and hospitals, to obtain contraceptive coverage directly from an insurer, as opposed to through their employer. Apparently, preserving the "religious conscience" of an insurance company was ground that these bishops simply would not cede.

One could commend the bishops' commitment to principle if it were based on any sincerity. Unfortunately, that seems not to be the case. Our tax dollars subsidize executions in every state where they are conducted, as well as pay for the wars and occupations that offend a true Catholic conscience, yet these bishops will not lift a finger to stop the execution of one possibly innocent man, let alone work to prevent their believers from paying for these egregious violations of doctrine.

Yes, the hypocrisy is shameful, and it serves as yet another reminder that in this mean-spirited age, the only doctrines that conservatives deem worth standing up for are those that punish and impede, rather than those that demonstrate any inkling of compassion and mercy.

Originally posted to Daily Kos on Sun Feb 19, 2012 at 10:00 AM PST.

Also republished by Pro Choice.

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Comment Preferences

  •  but he was born; it seems for many of the church (19+ / 0-)

    hierarchy,concern starts with conception and ends with birth.  These are the same men who celebrated the violent repression of Liberation Theology in their own church and whose commissions blamed endemic institutional acceptance of child abuse by priests on  modern secular society and blamed the children themselves for seducing the priests.

    Ironically, for centuries, the Church took no position on when life begins after conception but in the 1930's, Pope Pius Xll decided that the biblical story of Onan indicated that life begins at conception and so began the great war on contraception.  This decision by Pius was almost banal in comparison to some of his other "controversial" positions and views
    http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/...  

    •  The truth is the bishops could care less. (5+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      sb, Dave925, Matt Z, LSophia, poorbuster

      All they care about is the fetus.

      They don't give a rats ass what happens after a fetus is born.

      •  Generalization much? nt (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Amber6541, lcj98

        "These are not candidates. These are the empty stand-ins for lobbyists' policies to be legislated later." - Chimpy, 9/24/10

        by NWTerriD on Sun Feb 19, 2012 at 11:42:33 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Yes, it is a generalization, imbued with evidence (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Joe Bacon, Possiamo, poorbuster

          Look at what the bishops make a big deal of and what they are only giving lip service to. They are acting as if they are a wholly-owned subsidiary of the far right.

          The GOP is the party of mammon. They mock what Jesus taught.

          by freelunch on Sun Feb 19, 2012 at 12:00:53 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  some speculation I have seen posits that the (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            poorbuster, alizard

            Church hierarchy is anticipating another storm over alleged pedophilia involving priests again in the EU and Africa and this provides a smokescreen for them to hide behind as they try to whip the faithful laity into a froth over the issue/non-issue

          •  "The bishops" (0+ / 0-)

            is a reference to individuals, many of whom do indeed "make a big deal of" issues like the death penalty and economic justice. If you are referring to the actions of the national conference of bishops, you might want to say so.

            "These are not candidates. These are the empty stand-ins for lobbyists' policies to be legislated later." - Chimpy, 9/24/10

            by NWTerriD on Sun Feb 19, 2012 at 12:37:42 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  Benedict appoints reactionaries (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              alizard

              There are a few left over from when being a right-winger was not a requirement, but the moderates are still letting Dolan and the rest of the righties claim to speak for them.

              The GOP is the party of mammon. They mock what Jesus taught.

              by freelunch on Sun Feb 19, 2012 at 12:48:18 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

      •  I'll pare that down for you. "The church" cares (7+ / 0-)

        about it's wealth and power. Their wealth and power is derived from the "articles of faith" by which they control the minds of their congregation. Regardless of what the bishops care about, they are stuck in this position because to do otherwise is to cast doubt on the rest of their articles of faith by which they cling to power.
        They have been able to embrace the science of evolution, and of geological science, so at least they're a step ahead of the fundamentalists.

        I'd rather have a buntle afrota-me than a frottle a bunta-me.

        by David54 on Sun Feb 19, 2012 at 12:36:18 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  What they really care about is control (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Joe Bacon, LSophia, CTMET

        If you can control people's sexuality, you can get them to do anything and they support the far right because they know in a far right country, their power will increase exponentially.

        Like all tyrannies, the tyranny of the church is based in the need of some twisted humans to lord power over their fellow beings.

        "Our problems stem from our acceptance of this filthy, rotten system." - Dorothy Day

        by Dave925 on Sun Feb 19, 2012 at 01:10:39 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

    •  The Onan story is about seed. (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Sam Sara, poorbuster

      The use of that particular term tells us much about first century Palestinian worldview, which is carried into the modern era.  It gives men, as the ultimate bearers of life itself (the seed) complete control over women, who are clearly nothing but a vessel in which the seed grows to maturity.  You don't really have to go much further than that to explain many things about the "Christian" church...

      When do I get to vote on your marriage?

      by jarhead5536 on Sun Feb 19, 2012 at 11:31:56 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Actually (0+ / 0-)

        it was about not impregnating one's late brother's wife, which was Onan's duty under the (very) old rules.

        http://en.wikipedia.org/...

        I must be dreaming...

        by murphy on Sun Feb 19, 2012 at 11:59:07 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  The woman's role in reproduction (0+ / 0-)

        was not realized until well into 19th century in the West.
        All those centuries to base its theology on incomplete, wrong information.
         And too lazy? Ill informed? No women in Church leadership roles? Who knows? If there had been women in leadership, this child abuse scandal would never have been allowed to continue like it has.
         Yet this week we were asked to sign a petition against the death penalty in CA (There is a referendum to overturn the death penalty in the next election.)

        What do we want? Universal health care! When do we want it? Now!

        by cagernant on Sun Feb 19, 2012 at 03:47:46 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

    •  History of Church teaching on abortion (0+ / 0-)

      and when life begins in utero is MUCH more complicated than you suggest.

      What would Jesus do? Whip the exploiters out of the temple!

      by jhannon on Sun Feb 19, 2012 at 11:48:46 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  why give anything (10+ / 0-)

    to anyone who claims to have the key to eternity?  I mean, really, what a scam...

    www.tapestryofbronze.com

    by chloris creator on Sun Feb 19, 2012 at 10:09:55 AM PST

  •  Catholic bishops claim... (19+ / 0-)

    ...to believe in Christ, but their words and actions are not Christ-like. They are modern day Pharisees and unworthy of any respect.

    •  cf Soren Kierkegaard (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      sb

      Was Bishop Mynster a "Truth-Witness," One of "the Authentic Truth-Witnesses" - Is This the Truth? in Kierkegaard's Writings, XXIII:
      The Moment and Late Writings
      Søren Kierkegaard
      Edited and translated, with introduction and notes, by Howard V. Hong and Edna H. Hong

      Nebraska farmers are their own worst enemy.

      by jeturek on Sun Feb 19, 2012 at 10:50:18 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  Tarring with too broad a brush (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Amber6541, murphy, lcj98

      there are bishops who are dedicated to human welfare and advocates of social justice.

      What would Jesus do? Whip the exploiters out of the temple!

      by jhannon on Sun Feb 19, 2012 at 11:50:41 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  The conference elected Dolan instead of a moderate (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        RadGal70, Debby

        Traditionally, the head of the USCCB has been in the second position previously, but the moderate who was there was not allowed to become the head because he wasn't enough of a right-winger to suit the majority of American bishops. Dolan was plenty reactionary, so they broke with tradition to elect him.

        There may be some bishops who are not right-wingers, who might even be described as moderates, but they are clearly not the ones in power in the US.

        The GOP is the party of mammon. They mock what Jesus taught.

        by freelunch on Sun Feb 19, 2012 at 12:03:50 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Oh yeah, most are lock-step (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          freelunch

          They are careerists and advance best by supporting position of the Vatican.  But some do the best they can in their own diocese and keep their heads down on issues when they know they can't prevail.

          What would Jesus do? Whip the exploiters out of the temple!

          by jhannon on Sun Feb 19, 2012 at 01:13:56 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

      •  No it's not- (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        freelunch, LSophia

        If they don't want to painted with the same brush then they need to step the hell up and buck their heirarchy- if they don't then they are just as bad.

        "I'm not scared of anyone or anything, Angie. Isn't that the way life should be?" Jack Hawksmoor

        by skyounkin on Sun Feb 19, 2012 at 12:32:30 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

  •  This is something that has irked me (18+ / 0-)

    for some time now. We hear no such outrage over capital punishment. The Church seems to be in favor of punishment, whether it be for a crime one did not commit or an unintended pregnancy.

    "The object of persecution is persecution. The object of torture is torture. The object of power is power. Now do you begin to understand me?" ~Orwell, "1984"

    by Lily O Lady on Sun Feb 19, 2012 at 10:10:43 AM PST

    •  The bishops don't care about people (12+ / 0-)

      They clearly don't care about women.

      Fetuses are the only ones who don't know how cynical and manipulative the bishops are.

      The GOP is the party of mammon. They mock what Jesus taught.

      by freelunch on Sun Feb 19, 2012 at 10:13:04 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Open prayers and secret prayers (9+ / 0-)

        If I may use the words of Jesus here, the Catholic Bishops pray openly for the sanctity of life, but they pray in secret for the domination of women throughout the world.

        Jesus had much criticism for those who prayed openly.  These were loud popular prayers that were meant more to impress a populist crowd than anything else.  Prayer in secret were the prayers that reside only in one's heart.  

        We cannot know what is in the hearts of the Catholic Bishops, but  we can look at their actions.  They want to end or restrict women's rights to contraception and abortion but have very little interest in capital punishment.  I think this is a pretty clear indication of what they pray for openly and what they pray for in secret.

    •  There's wiggle room for capital punishment (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      OldDragon, sb, NWTerriD, alizard

         Don't ask me to explain or justify the CC's internal logic regarding capital punishment vs. birth control, but the death penalty does fall into the "well, if you must, and there's no other option, then go ahead with it" category, as does war.

         Of course, it's quite a stretch to argue that Troy Davis was an "if you must" situation, and it doesn't explain the unadulterated glee and enthusiasm that right-wing "Christians" exhibit towards the death penalty in general. They don't exactly wring their hands with regret whenever a state execution is performed.

         Essentially, there are "outs" for any moral doctrines that might occasionally inconvenience the 1%.

      "Le ciel est bleu, l'enfer est rouge."

      by Buzzer on Sun Feb 19, 2012 at 10:47:25 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  That wiggle room doesn't apply to the US, frankly. (4+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        sb, marykk, Matt Z, Brooke In Seattle

        It must be regretted, felt, to some etent remorsed.

        It cannot simply be a tool of public policy to either appeal to the basest of the base or to innoculate one's self from said basest of the base's fury.

        It cannot be celebrated by its perpetrators.

        And of course, to allow an execution to go forward in which the convicted was the subject of false witness, we indirectly stand by as the false witness finds a place in hell, and this is itself sinful.

        Capital punishment in this country is a kind of revenge therapy, and whatever necessary executions are neutral to Catholic doctrine, revenge therapy just flat dloesn't qualify.

        Have you heard? The vice president's gone mad. - Bob Dylan, 1966

        by textus on Sun Feb 19, 2012 at 11:13:22 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

    •  It's not surprising that there are a lot... (0+ / 0-)

      ...of Christians that are in favor of punishment; the whole of the religion is founded on punishment: Hell.

  •  I honestly don't care what the church believes (26+ / 0-)

    I don't care about its doctrine, I don't even care about its glaring hypocrisy.

    I'm not a Catholic, so what they believe and how they live means absolutely nothing to me. As long as they keep it within their own church.

    It's a church. Stay the fuck out of politics and I won't nitpick your beliefs.

    P.S. I am not a crackpot.

    by BoiseBlue on Sun Feb 19, 2012 at 10:10:47 AM PST

    •  I am not religious, but I do care what they say (12+ / 0-)

      Because what they say hurts people. I will speak out about the evil they do with their hypocrisy and arrogance.

      The GOP is the party of mammon. They mock what Jesus taught.

      by freelunch on Sun Feb 19, 2012 at 10:14:10 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  If they say it within the walls of their church, (16+ / 0-)

        I don't care.

        My point is that once they interject themselves into my life, I WILL start caring about what they say. And that's what they've done.

        They did it in 2004 when they denied Kerry communion, they do it all the time.

        Then, when called on it, act like, hey, it's just what god told us.

        And it's bullshit. They're a political organization. That's all. There's nothing holy about them.

        P.S. I am not a crackpot.

        by BoiseBlue on Sun Feb 19, 2012 at 10:18:32 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  They do it at this time ... (0+ / 0-)

          ... because in their opinion you are interjecting yourself in THEIR life. You (i.e. the secular state) are demanding that they actively provide contraception to all their employees via health care plans.

          This undermines their own teaching. YOU try to force them to be hypocrites - to condemn contraception and simultaneously give it out for free.

          You are messing with their freedom of religion.

          I don't think this battle is a particular wise choice of limited church resources - but the bishops are correct on the facts.

          The Catholic Church has a long history of beeing persecuted - especially in English speaking countries. They are wary and defensive in this regard, and rightly so.

          A secular state that tries to suppress or even redefine Catholic teaching should expect them to oppose this. Loudly.

          •  That is such bullshit (12+ / 0-)

            Do you actually believe any of that?

            You know what? If they don't want to be subjected to American laws, they can sell their hospitals and universities to secular organizations and be done with it.

            They are not correct on the facts, and neither are you. I do not oppose the Catholic Church's stance on contraception. I think it's fucking stupid and archaic, but it's fine with me if Catholics want to follow that teaching.

            What they DON'T get to do is hire non-Catholics and dictate to them what they can and cannot use for their own health benefits.

            Obama and I are not running into Catholic Churches and shoving the pill down all the ladies' throats.

            Educate yourself. Here's a hint: your church is not an objective source of news.

            P.S. I am not a crackpot.

            by BoiseBlue on Sun Feb 19, 2012 at 11:24:25 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  how should I call this? (0+ / 0-)
              You know what? If they don't want to be subjected to American laws, they can sell their hospitals and universities to secular organizations and be done with it.
              This isn't about hospitals and universities. This isn't about practicing medicine or education. It is about ALL employees.  In your opinion the church is not allowed to employ people, which means it is not allowed to exist at all.

              This argument of yours is dishonest and malicious. It is a variation of the "of you don't like this great country, just leave it" we keep hearing from other quarters as reaction to any critique.

              •  The church is allowed to employ people (4+ / 0-)

                They're not allowed to dictate the lives of those people.

                Your arguments are so strange. I can't believe you really believe this stuff.

                P.S. I am not a crackpot.

                by BoiseBlue on Sun Feb 19, 2012 at 11:59:20 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  dictate? (0+ / 0-)

                  Dictate? Where is the coercive element?

                  Nobody is forced to do anything? The Church just refuses to provide contraception for free.

                  Nobody prevents Church employees to go and buy contraception on their own funds.

              •  Wrong. (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                ChadmanFL, Debby

                The rules are only for enterprises. All church employees and all church school employees are exempt from this rule of the church chooses. The bishops have you completely confused.

                The GOP is the party of mammon. They mock what Jesus taught.

                by freelunch on Sun Feb 19, 2012 at 12:07:49 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

              •  And Remember (4+ / 0-)

                the organization that runs the hospitals is fine with having insurance companies provide the coverage.  It's only the bishops and the uber-Catholics who still object.  

                The Church has made a distinct right turn in the last 30 years, wiping out most of the good done by Vatican II, beginning with banning birth control against the opinion of most of the Church at the time.  The abomination of a liturgy just introduced is a clear example as is this hissy fit by the same men who looked the other way when children were being raped.

                •  the organization that runs the hospitals (0+ / 0-)

                  is not responsible for the mission of the church.

                  They run hospitals.

                  It is the Bishops whose job is to maintain the consistency and correctness of teaching.

                  •  There is only one answer to that: (7+ / 0-)

                    Bullshit!  To continue to argue with you would be a waste of my time.  I know who you are - I've known since the 1st time I went to Cathecism classes, and was told not to bother to pray for my deeply loved ex-Catholic grandfather, because he was damned.  I know it's not true, I knew it then, but that was the word from the official voice in my 6 year old world.  You like to play games with people's lives - argue tiny points of theology and think you are the smartest guy in the room.  

                    Guess what, asshole?  Vanity is one of the deadly sins.

                  •  The hospitals are not religious organizations. (2+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    Debby, alizard

                    Deal with it. The hospitals are enterprises. They get billions in government funds. I would be quite happy to cut off all of the hospitals and colleges that do not want to follow the rules.

                    The GOP is the party of mammon. They mock what Jesus taught.

                    by freelunch on Sun Feb 19, 2012 at 02:33:16 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  How about a deal with the churches. If you want (3+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      BoiseBlue, Debby, alizard

                      exemptions from the requirements, give up your tax exempt  status.

                      The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy;the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness

                      by CTMET on Sun Feb 19, 2012 at 03:44:31 PM PST

                      [ Parent ]

            •  oh, and, fwiw (0+ / 0-)

              you also try to make this into a veiled Ultramontanism accusation, one of the hallmakrs of anti-catholic propaganda.

              "If they don't want to be subjected to American laws" - yeah, they are not patriotic enough, not of US, they are THEM.

              Ick.

          •  If you write this to explain "their" POV (11+ / 0-)

            then I can just barely tolerate the post.  If this represents your own point of view, then I say to you, respectfully, you're full of shit.  

            My tax dollars go to support murder in Afghanistan, Iraq, and right here at home. Where's the outrage over MY religious freedom?  "Religious freedom" doesn't have anything to do with it...that's a right-wing meme, one that is ignorant about the role of government in a pluralistic society.  It's also a lie, I might add.

            Shirley Chisholm was right. Our Republic is in deep trouble.

            by Big River Bandido on Sun Feb 19, 2012 at 11:36:29 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  Judging from this poster's other comments in (0+ / 0-)

              this diary, it appears to be a sincerely held belief.

              P.S. I am not a crackpot.

              by BoiseBlue on Sun Feb 19, 2012 at 11:42:07 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  To which I would reply (3+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                RadGal70, Brooke In Seattle, Debby

                Once Catholic "teachings" (and Garry Wills destroys the very notion that any of this "debate" is legitimate) get debated as points of civil law, what a right-wing Catholic calls "religious freedom" is nothing more than an attempt to force his religion down another person's throat.  

                That user's rant is akin to the Morality Police.  

                Shirley Chisholm was right. Our Republic is in deep trouble.

                by Big River Bandido on Sun Feb 19, 2012 at 11:47:12 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  did you actually read what I wrote? (0+ / 0-)

                  what kind of my argument is faulty?

                  Or do you just not like its conclusions?

                •  or, to be more clear (0+ / 0-)

                  your "Catholic teaching should not be a point of civil law" is actually the mirror of my own - Civil law should not attempt to define Catholic teaching.

                  But if you force a Church to act in a certain way as a matter of daily business, you automatically preclude it from teaching a prohibition of that act.

                  •  Bullshit (0+ / 0-)

                    There has been no attempt, none, anywhere, to "define Catholic teaching".  That is a lie.

                    Shirley Chisholm was right. Our Republic is in deep trouble.

                    by Big River Bandido on Sun Feb 19, 2012 at 12:54:05 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  as I explained... (1+ / 1-)
                      Recommended by:
                      CTMET
                      Hidden by:
                      Big River Bandido

                      A mandate for the church to provide contraception to its employees for free is exactly that.

                      Regardless how often you call this bullshit.

                      As I explained before.

                      Which you did not discuss but "counter" with a blatant assertion and name-calling.

                      •  That is an outright lie. (1+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        freelunch

                        And I'm hide-rating you for it.  

                        The President's position calls for insurers, not the Church to pay for contraception. To somehow twist that into a "religious freedom" argument is not only fatuous, it's echoes the dishonesty of the Far Reich.  

                        Shirley Chisholm was right. Our Republic is in deep trouble.

                        by Big River Bandido on Sun Feb 19, 2012 at 01:49:57 PM PST

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  you are not supposed to HR over disagreement (0+ / 0-)

                          ... but I won't return the favor.

                          I wasn't talking about the president's compromise.

                          Your original claim was "There has been no attempt, none, anywhere, to "define Catholic teaching".  

                          Which I refuted by counterexample.

                          That's a whole different beast. The health care mandate is a few months older than the current compromise.

                          The compromise is much harder to classify. Basically, it tries to circumvent the issue, but is not fully effective in it. To be effective it needed not to shift the cost "to the insurer" (which is nonsense - it will still be paid out of the same premiums) but to the one making the decision to use contraception.

                          If you doubt that answer a simple question: will the plans "without contraception" be respectively cheaper to honestly reflect the difference?

                      •  The church is not providing contraceptives (2+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        Big River Bandido, Debby

                        That is the lie the bishops are spreading.

                        That is the lie that you are repeating.

                        The insurance company is covering contraceptives.

                        The hospitals and universities are not churches.

                        The bishops cannot be trusted.

                        Clearly you have been hoodwinked by them.

                        The GOP is the party of mammon. They mock what Jesus taught.

                        by freelunch on Sun Feb 19, 2012 at 02:35:22 PM PST

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  formula compromise (0+ / 0-)

                          In the end the insurance company is paid by the employer.

                          So the employer pays the contraception.

                          And while hospitals and (arguably) universities are not churches, the church has many employees outside of that.

                          Universites, btw, insofar as they serve a religious purpose, are part of the church's core mission and must be regarded as such.

                          •  Two points about your errors (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            alizard

                            The church is not required to offer any  contraception coverage to any direct church employees. You keep falsely implying that they must.

                            As far as I am concerned, any organization that takes federal money for services that it is providing needs to follow the rules of the federal government. No church is allowed to collect money for religious purposes from the government, but any related services can fairly be considered non religious if a portion of the funding comes (and hospitals and universities certainly get a huge share) from the government.

                            If the programs are so tightly tied to the religion, they must give up their federal funding for those programs.

                            The GOP is the party of mammon. They mock what Jesus taught.

                            by freelunch on Sun Feb 19, 2012 at 02:49:31 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  hmm. Do you have any source for that? (0+ / 0-)

                            From all the texts I've read - including Obama's remarks on the issue - my undrestanding was that ALL (insured) women would get free contraception, regardless of employer.

                            If the employer doesn't want to provide for it, it will be provided by the insurer "at no cost".

                            The latter of course beeing nonsensical - the insurer will necessarily account it against the premiums he gets - either from that particular plan, or from all insured.

                            Which, by the way, would effectively prevent religious institutions to run their own or have affiliated insurers, that mostly cater to them.

                          •  Insurance companies have rules to follow (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            alizard

                            Churches don't set rules for insurance companies.

                            USA Today says:

                            The issue has heated up since Jan. 20, when Secretary of Health and Human Services Kathleen Sebelius issued a final rule requiring that all women have access to free preventive care services, including contraceptives. The rule includes an exemption for churches and houses of worship, but not for other religious institutions such as hospitals, universities and charities.
                            You were misinformed and misunderstood what Obama said.

                            The GOP is the party of mammon. They mock what Jesus taught.

                            by freelunch on Sun Feb 19, 2012 at 03:58:11 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Then they can quit taking my tax money. (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            alizard

                            If a university or a hospital wants to be solely a religious institution, wants to follow out its mission, then it can quit taking public money. There's the compromise. They can quit claiming to do "charity" if they want to keep getting paid for it by the state.

                            Twenty years from now, you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn't do than by the ones you did do. Throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbor. --Mark Twain

                            by Debby on Sun Feb 19, 2012 at 08:17:23 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                      •  Uprated for the wrong HR,but I don't agree (0+ / 0-)

                        The church is not being asked to make people use contraception, only to support those who are weak and have sinned by having sex for pleasure only. I don't think pregnancy is meant to be punishment for sin. I don't think the Catholic Church (by doctrine) even even says pregnancy  is punishment for sin. However they seem to act like they wish it was punishment for sin.

                        (IANAT) - I am not a theologin.... or even a Catholic.  

                        The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy;the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness

                        by CTMET on Sun Feb 19, 2012 at 03:50:54 PM PST

                        [ Parent ]

          •  My dear (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            lcj98, Brooke In Seattle, Debby

            I will speak to this, and I'm one who gets accused around here of overdefending the church all the time.  

            There ain't no freedom of religion question about the contraception issue.  Never was.  That is so much horsesh*t.  Even when the question was raised during V2 and during the writing of Humanae, it wasn't about freedom of religion.  Go read about the Crowley Report and what Zalba had to say to Patty Crowley.  Go read what John Courtney Murray, SJ had to say to Cushing, and what Cushing did.  Go read about Jack Egan's trip to Vatican II and the discussion of religious liberty.  

            No doubt there have been anti-Catholic persecutions in history.  Go read about Bishop "Dagger John" Hughes for a little of that in American history.  Which is all the more reason why American Catholics should speak loudly, to see that they never, ever do unto others what was done to them by the Know-Nothings.

            Instead, sadly, we see the bishops, and some, but certainly not all, of their flock engaging in the same type of attacks on the liberty of others.  And being so foolish as to think they can get in bed with the fundies and not get f*cked.

            So if you're going to cry "victim" over that, well, just go.

            If you think you're too small to be effective, you've never been in the dark with a mosquito.

            by marykk on Sun Feb 19, 2012 at 11:44:07 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  this issue (0+ / 0-)

              was not known at either V2 or writing of Humanae Vitae. I don't really understand your argument.

              The point is that the state tries to force the church to distribute for free (and thus, implicitly endorse) contraceptives; thus undermining its own teachings on that matter.

              That IS a freedom of religion issue.

              (and, fwiw, your comcast links are broken)

              •  Let me guess (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                ChadmanFL

                you're another trad.  You attend our Lady of Perpetual Misery, where you wear a veil every Sunday, speak Latin, and homeschool the kiddies lest they be tainted with (perish the thought) modernity.

                Go forth and read.

                http://archives.nd.edu/...

                http://www.op.org/...

                http://bcm.bc.edu/...

                If you think you're too small to be effective, you've never been in the dark with a mosquito.

                by marykk on Sun Feb 19, 2012 at 12:13:09 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  your links are all about contraception (0+ / 0-)

                  ... and the catholic teaching about it.

                  But the current issue isn't.

                  It is about the US trying to modify to teachings.

                  Thats one hell of a difference.

                  I have no particular opinion on the theological groundings of the Church's stance on contraception, and consider the whole thing somewhat lacking reality.

                  But that's not the point. Religious Freedom means it is not the Job of Congress to have a say in that matter.

                  And the moment Congress forces the Church to change its teaching by actively voiding a part of it through its own (forced) actions, Congress is in the business of defining Church teachings.

                  Which is a bad idea.

              •  You are repeating lies (0+ / 0-)

                You are misrepresenting the rules.

                You are repeating the lies the bishops tell.

                You are not trustworthy.

                The GOP is the party of mammon. They mock what Jesus taught.

                by freelunch on Sun Feb 19, 2012 at 02:36:22 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

          •  Seriously tempted to HR this comment (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Matt Z

            for the "freedom of religion" lie it contains.  And it IS a lie.  

            Shirley Chisholm was right. Our Republic is in deep trouble.

            by Big River Bandido on Sun Feb 19, 2012 at 11:48:28 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

          •  The oppressors whine when they cannot oppress (6+ / 0-)

            Yes, the Catholic Church was oppressed in England. It had earned that oppression, not by the way it treated Henry, but by the hundreds of years of high-handed behavior before that.

            This has nothing to do with freedom of religion. The bishops are running enterprises. They already provide such drugs in many states. The whole thing is an attempt to grab power, power that their own parishioners refuse to give them.

            The GOP is the party of mammon. They mock what Jesus taught.

            by freelunch on Sun Feb 19, 2012 at 12:06:51 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

        •  Yes. 2004 (4+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          sb, foresterbob, Matt Z, alizard

          People who were part of Ratsinger's faction before he became Pope launched a frontal attack on Catholic politicians who did not legislatively oppose Roe v. Wade and its aftermath. It doesn't matter that 12 years of Dem and Republican policy had begun to reduce the rate of abortions per pregnancies, and the rate of both pregnancies and sexual activity among teenagers. If the didn't do it by assaulting doctor-patient privacy, this faction supported them.

          At the same time, it was silent or next to silent about the aggressive pursuit of war, about torture, about the treatment of unindicted prisoners.

          I blame Ratzinger and always will.

          Have you heard? The vice president's gone mad. - Bob Dylan, 1966

          by textus on Sun Feb 19, 2012 at 11:20:28 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

    •  Really? (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      marykk, freelunch

      Would you have said that to Martin Luther King?  Gandhi? Eugene Robinson?  For that matter, do you think the bishops should have remained silent about Troy Davis?

      Religious belief, like any motivator, is a subtle thing.  It can be the source of awful Santorum like Rick Santorum, but that's not all it is, or should be.

      •  There is an enormous (and obvious) difference (6+ / 0-)

        Between individuals who act on their religious beliefs, and a Church forcing itself onto the law.

        P.S. I am not a crackpot.

        by BoiseBlue on Sun Feb 19, 2012 at 10:59:49 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Not true (0+ / 0-)

          Unfortunately, the cases of Gene Robinson and the Bishops' silence on Troy Davis are examples of institutional activism by religious organizations.

          Or do you believe that the Catholic Bishops should remain silent about the death penalty?  You can't have it both ways.

          •  The case of Gene Robinson (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            sb

            happened within his church. Irrelevant.

            And, again, I don't care what the Catholic bishops say. I care that they try to force that into government. What about that do you not understand? I DO NOT CARE what any Catholic bishop thinks about anything.

            P.S. I am not a crackpot.

            by BoiseBlue on Sun Feb 19, 2012 at 11:29:01 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  Again, you can't have it both ways. (0+ / 0-)

              Just as you can accuse the USCCB of hypocrisy on this -- and just as they are in fact being hypocrites -- so you have to deal with reality.  Either you need to recognize and accept that people should act on their beliefs or you should not; you can't have it both ways.

              •  I never said that people can't act on their (0+ / 0-)

                beliefs. This is so simple. You do realize, don't you, that there is a difference between a "person" and a "church?"

                What about that are you not understanding?

                P.S. I am not a crackpot.

                by BoiseBlue on Sun Feb 19, 2012 at 11:38:33 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  Oh, I understand your argument... (0+ / 0-)

                  The problem isn't with me -- the problem is that it's nonsense.  Either the Bishops can collectively intervene in secular politics or they can't.  It's that simple.  If you want to say they never should, then that's fine, the USCCB shouldn't have spoken out against the execution of Troy Davis -- but, in that case, there's nothing for you to complain about in his case.

                  So, which one is it?

                  •  One can believe (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    alizard

                    that the bishops should not interject themselves into politics at all (i.e., should not "speak out" on any political issue), while still recognizing hypocrisy in their decisions to

                    (1) engage in an all-out battle with the Obama adminstration about contracetptive coverage, but

                    (2) never utter a peep about the killing of a human being by the state, financed by taxpayer dollars.

                    "These are not candidates. These are the empty stand-ins for lobbyists' policies to be legislated later." - Chimpy, 9/24/10

                    by NWTerriD on Sun Feb 19, 2012 at 11:55:00 AM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Yes (0+ / 0-)

                      But that's the argument I'm making, not the argument BoiseBlue is making.  You're absolutely right, the Bishops are hypocrites on this. For that matter, so is BoiseBlue, and so is Atkins, the original diarist.  I'm not arguing about that; it's true and obvious.

                      I'm arguing against the far broader argument that BoiseBlue is advancing, which comes down to "your religion must remain private; no church should ever act collectively."  That's a profoundly dangerous and anti-democratic sentiment.

                      •  No, (2+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        BoiseBlue, stunvegas

                        that's not the argument you're making. You're arguing that if someone believes the bishops shouldn't speak out, then that person can't complain about hypocrisy on the part of the bishops.

                        In my comment, I'm not taking any position on the "bishops are hypocrites" issue, per se, or on the "bishops should stay out of politics" issue, per se. I'm saying that there is no hypocrisy on the part of Kossacks who think the bishops should keep their mouths shut, and yet are of the opinion that the bishops are being hypocritical when they practice selective mouth-shutting.

                        "These are not candidates. These are the empty stand-ins for lobbyists' policies to be legislated later." - Chimpy, 9/24/10

                        by NWTerriD on Sun Feb 19, 2012 at 12:53:03 PM PST

                        [ Parent ]

                  •  I said it from the very beginning (0+ / 0-)
                    I'm not a Catholic, so what they believe and how they live means absolutely nothing to me. As long as they keep it within their own church.
                    Did I ever say they should speak out on Troy Davis? No. I said I don't give a flying fuck what they believe. I don't care if they believe the death penalty is wrong or right, I don't care if they believe abortion is wrong or right. I'm not a Catholic. I do not care what the Catholic church believes.

                    I care that they have the audacity to intervene in American politics. That's it. Whether I agree with them on any given point is irrelevant. Keep it in the church. I don't want to hear it.

                    P.S. I am not a crackpot.

                    by BoiseBlue on Sun Feb 19, 2012 at 11:56:06 AM PST

                    [ Parent ]

        •  Amen to this. (0+ / 0-)

          It was unfortunate from a pure standpoint of demographics that Roe v. Wade happened when it did - as in the early years of the baby boom's conception years.

          I am not sure that the so0called Holocaust of Abortion that followed didn't have mroe to do with those demographics.

          I do know this: The numbers have been dropping. They have been dropping because of conservatives' efforts, liberals' efforts, Christian efforts, secular efforts, feminist efforts anti-feminist efforts. Girls today are more conscious of their own sexual choices, and are making them conscious of what birth control is available to them, and what their attitudes will be if pregnancy results.

          As a result, at some point during the elder Bush's admin, the rate of abortions per pregnancies began to drop. It has continued to ever since. It has not been becaulse the law has changed. It is because by startlign to talk about it after 1973, we not have a culture that in one tiny way is a little more healthy about sex than it was before. You would thnk this would make everyone happy.

          Have you heard? The vice president's gone mad. - Bob Dylan, 1966

          by textus on Sun Feb 19, 2012 at 11:28:53 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

    •  Unfortunately, for centuries it a participating (0+ / 0-)

      entity in chruch and state, execution its enemies.

      Ratzinger might have some huge spiritual gift, but the mantle he has worn even before he became Pope was as a political figure.

      Have you heard? The vice president's gone mad. - Bob Dylan, 1966

      by textus on Sun Feb 19, 2012 at 11:15:27 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  But Timmy has a red hat now (10+ / 0-)

    We have listen to every claim he makes because he says so. He says that he is not a hypocrite, so just ignore the massive amounts of evidence that Cardinal Dolan is a particularly obvious hypocrite.

    Remember that women do not count for the bishops. They are second-class citizens or just slaves for the Roman Catholic Church and must be ignored at all times.

    There's a reason that the number of women who have taken vocations in the RCC in the US has dropped even more dramatically than that of the loss of men taking vocations. Women are realizing that they are being treated as slaves by the bishops, but they can always stop doing anything for them. Women can say good-bye to the bishops and to mistreatment by the RCC. Eventually, they will.

    The GOP is the party of mammon. They mock what Jesus taught.

    by freelunch on Sun Feb 19, 2012 at 10:11:32 AM PST

    •  Big Gold Cross (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Joe Bacon, sb, Matt Z

      He's got a bigger gold cross now. How many New World people were burned to death to make it? How many baby rapists have been blessed as forgiven with it?

      How many of the poor would Jesus feed after cashing that in?

      Dolan wears it with pride. In the power it represents. A virtuous christian would say it's the devil's power.

      "When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro." - HST

      by DocGonzo on Sun Feb 19, 2012 at 10:52:33 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  He's running for pope. (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      marykk, sb, foresterbob, Brooke In Seattle

      And now he's one step closer.  But that takes him out of the postition as president of USCCB, and out of the US.

      You gotta love what the current pope told the new cardinals:

      “Cardinals are entrusted with the service of love: love for God, love for his Church, an absolute and unconditional love for his brothers and sisters, even unto shedding their blood, if necessary (in defense of the faith)," the pope [Benedict] told the new cardinals before giving them their rings and red birettas, or hats.
      http://www.msnbc.msn.com/...

      Got that? The new cardinals are charged to love you "even unto shedding your blood." That smacks of advance permission to commit abuse.

  •  It's a question of power, not of morals, as I (8+ / 0-)

    noted the other day.  I also note Gary Wills' contribution to this debate in the NY Review.

    Some men see things as they are and ask why. I dream of things that never were and ask why not?

    by RFK Lives on Sun Feb 19, 2012 at 10:12:24 AM PST

  •  I have little respect for the opinions of a church (23+ / 1-)

    that has such a long history of trying to sweep it's pedophile priests under rug.

    "There's nothing in the dark that's not there when the lights are on" ~ Rod Serling

    by jwinIL14 on Sun Feb 19, 2012 at 10:17:26 AM PST

  •  Troy Davis was (9+ / 0-)

    already poor and black and in jail, and thus effectively a non-person. But there are still all them uppity wimmen out there, insisting they're just as good as any god-fearin' man and that they should have some say about their destinies.

    Can't have that, it might threaten our hold on political power and prestige.
    /bitter snark

    We did this fight already, and before, and before. But Americans have attention spans about as long as your average gnat, so now we have to do it all over again.

    Now we have to stand up and shout: "Goddam it, I'm mad as hell and I'm not going to take it any more!"
    /more bitter snark

    Listen, are you breathing just a little and calling it a life? -- Mary Oliver

    by Mnemosyne on Sun Feb 19, 2012 at 10:18:36 AM PST

  •  More like The Holy See (9+ / 0-)

    No Evil, Hear No Evil, Speak No Evil.

  •  Yeah, where were they (18+ / 0-)

    when Troy Davis died? Or Cameron Todd Willingham? Carlos DeLuna?

    Where were they when we destroyed Iraq?

    Where are they eradicating LGBT homelessness? Where are they on ENDA (they claim to support jobs and social welfare, yet it's just for some?)?

    Where are they when it comes to ending anti-LGBT terrorism in our communities? Where are they when it comes to stopping bombings of women's health clinics or murdering doctors in cold blood?

    Read my stuff at burn after writing and The Huffington Post @indiemcemopants on Twitter

    by Scottie Thomaston on Sun Feb 19, 2012 at 10:20:04 AM PST

  •  If Newt and Santorum are such good Catholics (18+ / 0-)

    I would like to hear how they justify execution as a form of punishment.  

    And why don't the bishops and cardinals refuse to give them communion as they did Kerry who never stated that he was pro abortion, only pro choice.  

  •  Troy Davis was innocent. Period. (5+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    BoiseBlue, SaintC, sb, Matt Z, LSophia
  •  For that matter, why aren't they outraged (9+ / 0-)

    when any person is executed.

    If the church is against capital punishment, they should be lobbying hard to prevent it.  But they aren't.

    Barack Obama for President '08

    by v2aggie2 on Sun Feb 19, 2012 at 10:27:20 AM PST

  •  Innocence should not factor into the equation. (11+ / 0-)

    I'm not a Catholic, but if you are against the death penalty on this basis:

    The Catholic Church officially opposes capital punishment. This doctrine is in the same vein as those opposing abortion, birth control, and physician-assisted suicide: church doctrine dictates that life begins at conception and is a gift from God. Consequently, it is beyond the scope of any soul, no matter how high the earthly authority, to terminate a human life. It does not matter if it is legal, and it does not matter if the rationale is to relieve suffering: the taking of life is God's department, not ours.
    then we have no more right to execute Timothy McVeigh than we do Troy Davis. (And, I'll admit, when I think of all those children in that day-care center, and the grieving families left behind, it is really hard to remain against the death penalty.)

    Taking a life is taking a life. If we do not want our government to kill in our name, then we must accept that those who are truly guilty -- including those who admit guilt -- should be allowed to live.

    Of course, our government kills innocent people in our name every day that a drone goes out and allows us to keep our own hands "clean."

    Fucking bishops don't care about that either.

    "The corrupt fear us. The honest support us. The heroic join us." Jesse LaGreca (MinistryOfTruth),Tuesday, October 4, 2011.

    by gfre on Sun Feb 19, 2012 at 10:29:05 AM PST

    •  indeed (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      marykk, Shockwave
      then we have no more right to execute Timothy McVeigh than we do Troy Davis.
      Definitely. That's what opposition to captal punishment is about.
      Fucking bishops don't care about that either.
      That, on the other hand, is a malicious lie.

      I challenge you to show me an instance where the church supports this.

      •  The Bishops don't care about capital punishment (6+ / 0-)

        They have made it quite clear in their decision to become Republican hacks, that they will say nothing about capital punishment as long as the GOP cares about their foolish obsession with birth control and abortion.

        The GOP is the party of mammon. They mock what Jesus taught.

        by freelunch on Sun Feb 19, 2012 at 11:25:50 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  I didn't say they support it. (5+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        sb, NWTerriD, Matt Z, maf1029, Debby

        I said they don't care...and by that, I meant, enough to make the same kind of stink about it that they do about abortion.

        Most of those killed by drones in Pakistan and Afghanistan are innocent, and they are simply living in the wrong country in the wrong time.

        I think the bishops are caring too quietly.

        "The corrupt fear us. The honest support us. The heroic join us." Jesse LaGreca (MinistryOfTruth),Tuesday, October 4, 2011.

        by gfre on Sun Feb 19, 2012 at 11:30:10 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  By silence (4+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        NWTerriD, Matt Z, maf1029, gfre

        In a practical sense, that is, how it plays in reality in the hearts of the prople, the Church via its leadership 'supports' selective ignorance of the death penalty in a true sense.

        With the witness of the many times as Christ called out hypocrisy, in particular the hypocrisy of religious leaders, this is undeniable.

        Sins can be "things left undone," as much as "things done."

        "We will find fulfillment not in the goods that we have, but in the good we can do for each other." ~ RFK

        by paz3 on Sun Feb 19, 2012 at 11:51:07 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  you actually claim the Church is silent on CP (0+ / 0-)

          it never publicly spoke about it?
          never published teaching on it?

          In what universe do you live?

          •  cris, the major point is (4+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            ChadmanFL, Matt Z, maf1029, Debby

            that the USCCB simply was not there when it came to speaking out against a very controversial capital punishment case, but they're all over everything on the contraception issue.

            Say what you will, but it's obvious where the energy and the passion of the bishops is. It's not on the mercy and compassion of capital punishment.

            oops. I hope the gate wasn't too expensive.

            Twitter: @DanteAtkins

            by Dante Atkins on Sun Feb 19, 2012 at 12:34:12 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

          •  You a Catholic? (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            ChadmanFL, Matt Z, maf1029
            it never publicly spoke about it?
             never published teaching on it?

            Spoke publicly? Very quietly, recently, as the execution of Troy Davis shows. Published it? Now that's a really effective way of reaching everyday people who elect the people who pass laws concerning the death penalty, some document published by the RCC? Such arrogance!
            In what universe do you live?
            Same one you do, since God made the entire Creation, whether you like it or not. Oh, and thanks for the Christian forbearance, (and weak unoriginal sarcasm).

            Do conservative Roman Catholics have a different Universe where they keep their own version of same?

            "We will find fulfillment not in the goods that we have, but in the good we can do for each other." ~ RFK

            by paz3 on Sun Feb 19, 2012 at 12:48:32 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

  •  The Hypocrisy of Catholic Radio (12+ / 0-)

    I was listening to Relevant Radio, which is a conservative catholic radio station, recently, to a show called "Go Ask Your Father" where people call in with questions to a Catholic priest.

    Someone called to ask what to say to a friend of his who was accusing the Catholic Church of having a double standard over being "pro-life" when it came to their silence on opposing the death penalty issue.

    Incredibly (though I guess not surprisingly) the self-styled "Reverend Know-It-All" (meant to be self-deprecating) claimed that the Bishops were strongly opposed to the death penalty, but because the press and the media weren't interested in covering the issue, you never get to hear about it.

    This coming from a Relevant Radio show -- from a radio station that's a 24/7 anti-abortion propaganda machine. You can rarely get past 10 minutes of listening to that station without some type of "pro-life" anti-abortion message, discussion, ad, or announcement cropping up. Yet only twice in years of listening have I ever heard them even mention the death penalty, and neither time was it to express strong opposition to it. I guess owning your own talk radio station that issues news bulletins on the hour every hour doesn't make you a media or press outlet.

    And, of course, the hysteria of the HHS mandate also puts the lie to the claim that it's the press's fault for not covering the death penalty issue. The bishops can certainly kicked up enough of a stink for the press to take notice when they really want to.

    Thus the only conclusion that can be made is that the Catholic bishops really have no interest in opposing the death penalty. Certainly the people who run Relevant Radio do not.

  •  If a person strapped onto a gurney, or in an (11+ / 0-)

    electric chair, of standing up against a wall in front of a firing squad, if that person, for even a moment, experienced some sexual pleasure, THEN the bishops would be raising a fuss to stop the atrocity.

    Santorum 2012: Your Womb Is Mine!

    by jazzmaniac on Sun Feb 19, 2012 at 10:30:58 AM PST

  •  conspiracy!? (8+ / 2-)

    In 2004 George Walker Bush and representatives met with then Cardinal Ratzinger (now pope Benjamin XVI.)  They agreed that the Catholic church would ally itself with the Evangelical movement in the US and, make  abortion, birth control, and gay fear their only issues.   In return Bush the Lesser included the Catholics in his, give all domestic monies to churches program.  The Catholics pounded Kerry on abortion in the 2004 race, agreed to the 'Obama isn't christian enough' line in 2008.  Benjamin, nee Ratzinger, is still honoring that pledge.

  •  The "why" in all this couldn't be more obvious. (9+ / 0-)

    I'm assuming that Dante, as well as many others around here who've written on this and the Catholic Church know the answer too.

    The death penalty doesn't threaten them.

    Birth Control does.

    It's as simple as that.

    2.1 million Texans voted Democratic in the 2010 midterms. How many people in YOUR state voted D in 2010?

    by Rick Aucoin on Sun Feb 19, 2012 at 10:32:18 AM PST

    •  You are actually right - but not the way you think (0+ / 0-)

      The birth control health care mandate issue is a direct threat to the Church itself, because it undermines its core function - its teaching of the faith.

      The death penalty is just one of many things the church teaches about.

      Certainly important, but it has a different quality.

  •  I agree. And glad you put a spotlight on it. (6+ / 0-)

    I had the same question, but did notice the local Bishop's effort.

    I do wish we'd see the same full court press out of them, not obviously just for Troy, but for all the men and women on Death Row.

    Capital punishment is the real abomination.

    And the time is right to pile on, after IL Gov. Quinn's move. A little help please?

  •  Good story ... except (5+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    marykk, BoiseBlue, maf1029, sb, Matt Z
    In the end, however, whether or not Troy Davis was guilty or not is merely salt in the wound of a far bigger outrage.
    A political or a moral or a hypocritical ... or ANY reason to feel outraged ... does NOT even minutely rival the outrage that is the act of killing a man without being absolutely certain he's guilty.
    Just a quibble. I am up against my significant one on this. As she put it, she was against the death penatly till the day our first child was born.  I've even had to go so far as to try to explain that I would hope I could continue my opposition to capital punishment even if one of our children were murdered.

    This is raw for me. Good story, like I said.

    •  We've had that situation in our family (14+ / 0-)

      One family member is a pastor and an outspoken opponent of capital punishment.  When his child was murdered, a parishioner came up and asked, triumphantly, whether he hadn't changed his mind.  

      Do you think
      he replied
      that my conviction was so shallow?

      If you think you're too small to be effective, you've never been in the dark with a mosquito.

      by marykk on Sun Feb 19, 2012 at 10:40:38 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  My SO and I disagree on this as well (6+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      marykk, freelunch, maf1029, sb, foresterbob, Matt Z

      I'm opposed to death penalty under ALL circumstances and even told her that if someone brutally murdered me, I DO NOT WANT anyone to advocate for the death penalty. It will not bring me back, and it won't make my death less tragic.

      She's not sure that she could respect my wishes.

      I'm uncomfortable with that. But if the hypothetical happens, I'll be dead and won't care either way.

      P.S. I am not a crackpot.

      by BoiseBlue on Sun Feb 19, 2012 at 10:41:50 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  Matter of opinion. (0+ / 0-)
      ANY reason to feel outraged ... does NOT even minutely rival the outrage that is the act of killing a man without being absolutely certain he's guilty.
      For some, the core outrage is taking a life at all. Under this perspective, the innocence of the victim adds another degree of immorality, but not one that dwarfs the orginal outrage as you state.

      "These are not candidates. These are the empty stand-ins for lobbyists' policies to be legislated later." - Chimpy, 9/24/10

      by NWTerriD on Sun Feb 19, 2012 at 12:15:14 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  Not entirely silent (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    George, NWTerriD, freelunch, Matt Z

    link.

    To be sure, they did a piss-poor job of it, and it didn't get nearly the advocacy attention it should have.  But not entirely silent.

    If you think you're too small to be effective, you've never been in the dark with a mosquito.

    by marykk on Sun Feb 19, 2012 at 10:37:39 AM PST

  •  The whole contraception thing makes me sad (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    sb, Debby, stunvegas

    and yes, where were the bishops when Troy Davis died or where were the bishops when the poverty reports came out or when the murder rate in Philly is the worst in th nation, etc.  The very sad thing is that the bishops continue to be politicized while the rest of the Church in the US tries to take action on the issues of homelessness, poverty, immigration, etc.  It's sad that the bishops won't walk with us on social justice issues.

    Buck up--Never say die. We'll get along! Charlie Chaplin, Modern Times (1936).

    by dizzydean on Sun Feb 19, 2012 at 10:39:42 AM PST

    •  reality (0+ / 0-)

      There were like a million people in the world when Jesus was alive. Now there are six billion. It is time to think about other moral issues like overpopulation and environmental destruction rather than an emotional policy that can manipulate people for power seizure but obviously needs some  thought to fit with a world that has changed and stay with compassion.  

  •  It's hardly surprising - remember WWII? (6+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    freelunch, maf1029, sb, skyounkin, Matt Z, LSophia

    The church didn't have much to say in those days either, despite millions being executed in a wide variety of disgusting ways.

    In fact some of the worst collaborators of the Nazis were Catholic priests.  Remember Slovakia's fascist ruler/ Catholic priest Josef Tiso?

    http://en.wikipedia.org/...

    Or the Croatian Ustase clerical fascist movement.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/...

    The Pope actually declared fascist collaborator Cardinal Aloysius Stepinac a friggin martyr.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/...

  •  Where we're they? (7+ / 0-)

    Well I think they we're still trying to selectively decide which politician they we're going to make an example out of by denying them communion ( John Kerry anyone). Ahh reminiscing in their glory days of the 2004 pResidential selection process....when Kerry was told by cardinal Omalley to go suck it elsewhere on the communion.

    No instead they are welcoming that bastion of catholic ideology...thrice divorced and now born again catholic, Newt Gingrich to grace their presence because he too like them wants complete control over women's uterus and sex lives. ...apparently open marriages are ok too. And continuing their love affair with long time catholic who lives the life they espouse when it comes to the sanctity of marriage and control over women.....regardless of his morality and actions when it comes to the poor, destitute, and outcasts in this society...and whether sick and ill veterans get screwed and cheated by the church with his help is also apparently a-ok on the morality books they believe in too.

    I believe they have a new Motto....it's no longer...judge lest you be judged. It's... judge not, let us selectively judge.

    Losing my religion. The hierarchy and authority figures in the catholic church have made a complete and utter mockery of the religion....can you spell obsolete. They are a joke!

    The Plutocratic States of America, the best government the top 1% and corporations can buy. We are the 99%-OWS.

    by emal on Sun Feb 19, 2012 at 10:45:52 AM PST

    •  Forgiveness is the sweetest doctrine (5+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      susanthe, sb, maf1029, Matt Z, LSophia

      of Christianity.  But just because God has to forgive Newt Gingrich, doesn't mean I have to.

      •  absolutely (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Matt Z

        Unless you are divine...( to err is human,to forgive is divine)

        That said...crickets from them about his stance on war or the poor and destititute....and the govt policies he endorses that fly in the face of his born again Catholicism and faith. It's the cherry picking cafeteria catholic leadership, as the author notes,who is responsible for the fact  some relgious doctrines are just more equal than others when it comes time to deciding which politician should be denied communion.

        The Plutocratic States of America, the best government the top 1% and corporations can buy. We are the 99%-OWS.

        by emal on Sun Feb 19, 2012 at 12:04:23 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  Not unless you're a Christian. nt (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Matt Z, maf1029

        "These are not candidates. These are the empty stand-ins for lobbyists' policies to be legislated later." - Chimpy, 9/24/10

        by NWTerriD on Sun Feb 19, 2012 at 12:21:19 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

  •  Not true. (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    LABobsterofAnaheim
    The Catholic Church officially opposes capital punishment.
    That is completely false. Numerous Councils and Popes have taught definitively that the State does possess the right to impose the penalty of death. The author is not knowledgeable on Catholic doctrine and therefore unqualified to comment.

    Also, the responsible government was that of Georgia. Every Georgian bishop spoke out against this. The USCCB only generally gets involved in national matters. The bishops with jurisdiction within the state that carried out the execution all condemned it.

    This is shameful slander.

    •  Some bishops did speak out, to be sure (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      maf1029, sb

      The bishop of the Savannah diocese, eg. But I think you are way overstating the Church's approval of capital punishmment.  In recent years, the pronouncements have been more like "it is no longer impossible to keep someone incarcerated in a manner that guarantees he won't be a menace to society and therefore killing him is unnecessary."  

      And your point about the USCCB vs. the local bishops is well taken, but if you google USCCB and "Troy Davis" you get about 4300 hits.  Now google USCCB and "contraception" and you get over 1.1 million.  And that's contraception, not abortion.  The writer has made his point, and it's not slander.  A little touch of hyperbole, perhaps, but in no way shape or form slander.

      If you think you're too small to be effective, you've never been in the dark with a mosquito.

      by marykk on Sun Feb 19, 2012 at 11:02:19 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  PS, let me guess (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      RadGal70, sb, Matt Z

      you take your Mass in Latin, your nuns in habits, your band your women far, far away from the altar.  In short, you're a "traddie"

      If you think you're too small to be effective, you've never been in the dark with a mosquito.

      by marykk on Sun Feb 19, 2012 at 11:09:03 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  I almost hate to back you up. (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      marykk, Buzzer, wittgensteinstudent

      I'm a very secular Jew and no particular fan of the Catholic Church as a whole, which has any number of very well known issues many of which are brought up above and all of which are bad, though many fine people are and have been a part of the church also. It's such a large entity that it's entirely able to house both some of the world's greatest good and some of its greatest evils.

      We liberals, of course, revere the great Dorothy Day and I personally revere Stephen Colbert (who I'm guessing is probably a closet Day-ite). Certain movements within the church, such as the Franciscans, have been really outstanding on a number of issues from a progressive prospective, though obviously reproductive issues are more than problematic!

      But the bashing in this diary is, I think a little off the mark and kind of a rote repetition of old arguments that may not fully apply in the particular instance of Troy Davis, a case which I followed.

      In this case, I googled to check my own memory the church was not entirely silent. In fact Vatican very definitively joined the chorus of voices arguing against his execution, though you can always wish they had done more.

      http://savannahnow.com/...

      And you are right about the Georgia bishops.

      http://savannahnow.com/...

      Of course, it is entirely fair and appropriate to ask about the degree of publicity the church is giving itself on the differing matters and question its priorities, but to imply that the entire church is simply inaccurate and does nobody any good.

      Forward to Yesterday -- Reactionary aesthetics and liberal politics (in that order)

      by LABobsterofAnaheim on Sun Feb 19, 2012 at 11:14:47 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  well put. (0+ / 0-)

        If you think you're too small to be effective, you've never been in the dark with a mosquito.

        by marykk on Sun Feb 19, 2012 at 11:17:19 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  I agree with you to a point (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        maf1029, marykk, LABobsterofAnaheim

           Church figures DO speak out against many injustices that go against progressive values, consistent with Church teachings. It's unfair to say it never happens.

           The problem is one of the level of coordinated response.  Take torture, for instance; whenever torture is in the news someone goes out and gets the Church's take on the issue, which is usually on the level of "yes, torture's bad, we said so in this statement several years ago, no need to go there again". And the "controversy" fades away.

           Another one was Iraq. Yes, the Vatican did speak out strongly against the invasion before it happened -- but Bush paid no price for it after he went through with it anyway. He was still not-exactly-covertly supported by the bishops in his 2004 run.

          But on EVERY gay-rights initiative, no matter how minor, the Church quickly pulls out the heavy artillery and makes sure its outrage is well ventilated and  dominates the news.

           So it's not unfair to suggest the Church's reactions to current events are a little one-sided. The right gets full-bore action; the left gets lip service (though a few leaders DO speak out forcefully to no media coverage and little institutional backup).

        "Le ciel est bleu, l'enfer est rouge."

        by Buzzer on Sun Feb 19, 2012 at 11:31:38 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  Don't get me wrong. (0+ / 0-)

        Troy Davis shouldn't have been executed. That was wrong, and the Bishops who stood up for him were right.

        I just wanted to point out the difference between the prudential judgment of a handful of Catholics within their own jurisdictions and the universal and constant teaching of the Church. They're not the same.

        I think more vocal opposition was in order, though, yes.

    •  Counting angels on the head of a pin? (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      maf1029, Debby

      I am so sick of nit picking by defenders of the Catholic Church.  Why do I think you are either a seminarian or just an uber=Catholic, too scared to ask questions, but more than willing to condem others?

    •  Irrelevant (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      marykk, NWTerriD, Matt Z, Debby

      The prelates have spoken out many times on the standards under which the death penalty can by applied, and have argued that no state in the US comes close to meeting those standards.  Just because there might be extraordinary cases when it might be the least of all evils to kill someone doesn't mean that we've ever seen that case.

      •  Okay. (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Matt Z, maf1029

        Yes. You are right. Many bishops, including JPII have argued that there is almost no scenario in the modern world under which it would be justified to use the death penalty. But that in no way equates to a condemnation of the death penalty per se. The Church maintains, as she always has, that the State has that right.

        You need to distinguish between a prudential judgment and a formal act of the Magisterium.

    •  You're half right. The Church teaches that, yet (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      marykk, NWTerriD, Matt Z, maf1029

      also opposes the imposition of capital punishment, as the Georgian bishops' actions show.

      What many people--including Catholics--often don't know, but that I suspect you do know, is the different levels of authority of teaching by the hierarchy on doctrinal matters.  I forget the levels, because I find them conceptually offensive even as a Catholic myself, but I believe they are something like definitive and authoritative, where:

      Abortion, artificial birth control, gay marriage, cloning, stem cell research

      are opposed definitively, which puts them above

      Capital punishment, war, socioeconomic injustices

      which are merely opposed authoritatively, aka at a lower level.  

      I'm sure I don't have it exactly right; it's been awhile since I looked it up.  But I'm long over obedience to the hierarchy and their doctrinal priorities as expressed by the USCCB etc.  When the result is un-Christlike behavior, it's a result to be jettisoned in favor of modern adaptation in the name of Christ's Love of & for all.

      Before elections have their consequences, Activism has consequences for elections.

      by Leftcandid on Sun Feb 19, 2012 at 11:53:15 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Then I'm wholly right. (0+ / 0-)
        You're half right. The Church teaches that, yet also opposes the imposition of capital punishment, as the Georgian bishops' actions show.
        That statement makes me entirely right, not half right. That's pretty much exactly what I said.

        And no, it's not that the Church's teaching on the death penalty is of a different theological note than her teachings on other life issues. It isn't. It's that there is the teaching (the death penalty is permitted) and then there is the prudential judgment of how to apply to it to a specific case (is it the best choice in this particular set of circumstances, for this particular criminal).

        The first is an infallible and irreformable act of the Magisterium; the second is the personal judgment of men (even if, as was the case with JPII, he is an organ of that Magisterium), which in recent times has been to reject the death penalty in nearly all cases.

        •  This is why I don't value the teachings so much. (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          maf1029, marykk

          It's hard to find a case in recent times, as you say, wherein Catholic authorities championed the death penalty, or failed to oppose it, even if they acknowledge a State's right to impose it.  That's why you're half right: it's a split decision.  They'd do well to recognize a similar split decision for reproductive rights as well, but of course they will not anytime soon.   Recent times are the relevant times with regard to social issues (although we can go way back to at least one particular example re: social issues that remains quite relevant today, hint hint).

          Why the personal judgment of men people is subordinate to the actually-quite-fallible and certainly reformable-should-people-so-choose act of the Magisterium is not so much beyond me as I am way over it.  

          Before elections have their consequences, Activism has consequences for elections.

          by Leftcandid on Sun Feb 19, 2012 at 01:00:47 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  The difference: (0+ / 0-)

            one is intrinsically evil (and therefore admits of no exceptions), whereas the other can be a moral good if applied justly and prudentially.

            •  So sayeth some. Others might declareth BS. (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              marykk

              The Magisterium hath been complicit in much intrinsic evil over the centuries.  Much moral good, too, but the infallible declarations of what is intrinsically evil ring hollow from the hierarchy these days.   It's important to know what they say, but ever less important to abide by an ever increasingly obsolete code.

              Before elections have their consequences, Activism has consequences for elections.

              by Leftcandid on Sun Feb 19, 2012 at 02:40:19 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  The Magisterium... (0+ / 0-)

                ... is not a moral agent. It cannot be complicit in intrinsic evil. Men can be complicit, but not the Magisterium. The Magisterium defines articles of faith, it doesn't do good or evil.

                And obsolescence isn't a category that applies to moral truth. If it was true then, it is true now. Otherwise, you might as well just throw Christianity out altogether, since the Gospels are certainly obsolete by your standard. You might as well throw any possibility of moral philosophy whatsoever out, because hey, who know when the truth, "It is wrong to steal," might just up and expire on you.

                •  It is wrong to steal, but we both know that it's (0+ / 0-)

                  sometimes more wrong than at others.

                  Obsolescence doesn't apply to transcendent moral truth, but it certainly does apply to abortion, birth control, gay marriage, stem cell research, & cloning.  Modes of moral philosophy that mistake their contemporary cultural morality for transcendent moral truth can and should be at times thrown out.

                  Before elections have their consequences, Activism has consequences for elections.

                  by Leftcandid on Sun Feb 19, 2012 at 07:11:37 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

              •  Tipoff (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Leftcandid

                When someone says he's a Catholic and starts with the Magisterium stuff, he's a trad.  Dead giveaway.  And in no way here to further the mission of the dK .

                If you think you're too small to be effective, you've never been in the dark with a mosquito.

                by marykk on Sun Feb 19, 2012 at 05:10:04 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

  •  Pro-life" doesn't mean you are like pro-life. (5+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    OldDragon, maf1029, RadGal70, Matt Z, LSophia

    I mean how unsophisticated can you be not to understand the fine nuance of the black and white world of the US jihadists.

    "Pro-life" means they don't care about women's lives, war victims lives, wrongly convicted innocent's lives, poor, children or elderly's lives.

    "Pro-life" just means they are against women's rights and that church and state have the right to make the most important decisions of life and death for women.

  •  Baby Rapers (7+ / 0-)

    Where is the broad and deep Federal criminal investigation of Catholic Church employees like priests who raped children in the US? Where is the Federal investigation of the Catholic Church employees, like bishops and popes, who failed to report what they knew, who actively conspired and acted to hide these rapists, even knowingly putting them among new victims? That went on for years, generations, centuries?

    Ontopic to this diary, where is the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops insisting on such investigations? Insisting on the state enforcing the Catholic doctrine that raping babies is prohibited? The USCCB, as "the organization most responsible for lobbying and policy advocacy on behalf of the Holy See here in the United States", is responsible for the failure to regulate the Catholic Church and all religious (and educational, and otherwise custodian of children) employees preventing baby rapes.

    And everyone knows it. The Catholic Church hypocrisy on contraception is a joke no one should laugh at, against the backdrop of the Church's evil, self-serving baby rape hypocrisy.

    Another example: the Church already has its official morals encoded in laws criminalizing adultery, that are proven broken in divorce courts every day, but does the Church dare insist that adulterers serve prison time? Of course not - around half are men. The Church is undeniably uninterested in criminalizing on moral grounds even those of the 10 Commandments that society agrees is wrong.

    Contraception? Don't whine to me, baby rapists. Gay marriage? Premarital sex? A millennia-old global empire of officially celibate men who rape babies and protect each other's raping babies has nothing worth hearing on any of these turning points of reality in anyone's lives.

    After a load of Church employees have spent their remaining lives in prison before facing their maker, and the Church has actually changed all the evil inside its organization that made it a baby rapist franchise - then the Church might have some moral standing to talk about sex.

    In the meantime, the only venue for their whining should be in interrogations by District Attorneys and Attorneys General.

    "When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro." - HST

    by DocGonzo on Sun Feb 19, 2012 at 10:50:04 AM PST

    •  "baby rapers" - we should all call them that (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      DocGonzo, skyounkin, Matt Z

      The Roman church has no moral standing and it never has.  It's entire history is one long passionate love affair with secular power.

      Never attribute to stupidity what can be adequately explained by malice; stupid people couldn't hurt us so effectively.

      by Visceral on Sun Feb 19, 2012 at 10:57:49 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  It Galls Me to Say It. (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    maf1029
    Our tax dollars subsidize executions in every state where they are conducted, as well as pay for the wars and occupations that offend a true Catholic conscience, yet these bishops will not lift a finger to stop the execution of one possibly innocent man, let alone work to prevent their believers from paying for these egregious violations of doctrine.
    The Church doesn't pay state taxes. So far as I know, its properties and income remain free of tax in every state.  

    Nevertheless, to whatever degree that may ease the extremity of the Bishops' hypocrisy, if at all, they are still flaming prick caliber hypocrites whom, I wish, would return to their cloisters under a vow of silence and leave the rest of us alone for a while, thanks.

    Bumpersticker: GOP. Cheering Death. Booing Soldiers. Join Us.

    by LeftOfYou on Sun Feb 19, 2012 at 10:51:57 AM PST

  •  RCC has been fine with execution for 2000 years (0+ / 0-)

    They may be incoherent with regards to their stated doctrines, but not with regards to their actions over their long history.  Oh, the Church itself does not shed blood, but they have long allowed executions (and war) for the sake of preserving the wealth and power of the church and the power of the secular authorities who live in symbiosis with it.

    The Church's teachings on capital punishment are just as hollow as all their other teachings on social justice; it's never been important to them and never has.

    Never attribute to stupidity what can be adequately explained by malice; stupid people couldn't hurt us so effectively.

    by Visceral on Sun Feb 19, 2012 at 10:52:29 AM PST

  •  Thank you ! Very much needed to keep (0+ / 0-)

    me sane. The Catholic Church sins a lot and I don't have mercy with the bishops or the pope. They better pray hard that God forgives them.

    Why is everything so infuriating these days?

  •  Hypocracy #2: 59 billion animals killed/year (0+ / 0-)

    Nothing but silence from the "Church".

     (John 2:13-16): “In the Temple courts (Jesus) found men selling cattle, sheep and doves and others sitting at tables exchanging money. So he made a whip out of cords and drove all from the Temple, both sheep and cattle; he scattered the coins of the money changers and overturned their tables. To those who sold doves he said: ‘Get out of here.’

  •  Thanks for highlighting the hypocrisy, Dante. (0+ / 0-)

    Catholics richly deserve criticism for their failure to oppose the death penalty. The Church makes Catholics dependent on the opinion of the Church to determine approved conduct, but the Church is very hypocritical in what conduct it will approve or censure or ignore.

    Women's rights are about nil under this arrangement. I hope Catholic women will push back against the bishop's anti-birth control stance. I hope they will push back hard and publicly.

    Hopefully, Church reform will take up both birth control and the death penalty in a more honest and realistic way. Such reforms, however, may have to wait for a new Pope.

  •  Too Busy (7+ / 0-)

    Moving pedophiles around, instituting the church in Africa to make up for the losses in Europe and the States, and whining about gay rights.

    That's where they were.

    Jesus wept.

    I'm sick of hearing bishops and cardinals and the pope (none of whom deserve capital letters) griping about things that don't involve them.  If they want to encourage their parishioners not to take contraception (lost cause) or have abortions (mostly lost cause), fine.

    But keep it out of the public arena unless and until you pay taxes.

    (-6.25, -6.77) Moderate left, moderate libertarian

    by Lonely Liberal in PA on Sun Feb 19, 2012 at 10:59:27 AM PST

  •  In fairness, The Vatican called for Troy Davis to (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    marykk, Debby

    be suspended. And If I'm not wrong they even sent their Ambassador to the US  and some US Bishops to reach to the Governor.

    "Rick Perry talks a lot and he's not very bright. And that's a combination I like in Republicans." --- James Carville

    by LaurenMonica on Sun Feb 19, 2012 at 10:59:58 AM PST

    •  The bishops did not speak out the way they do (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      skyounkin, Debby

      on birth control. They went through the motions, but made it clear that they would never condemn the proponents of the death penalty the way they attack those who don't buy their demands on birth control.

      The GOP is the party of mammon. They mock what Jesus taught.

      by freelunch on Sun Feb 19, 2012 at 11:34:57 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  anti catholic propaganda (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    marykk, Villanova Rhodes

    This is firmly in anti-catholic propaganda territory now.

    It's a shame that such propaganda makes it to to front page on Daily Kos.

    In the contraception issue the bishop's conference demands nothing less that the state does not force it to compromise its own mission when doing its job.

    It is asking that the state does not use the fact that it employs people against it.

    The Troy Davis situation has nothing to do with that.

    The blood of Troy Davis is firmly on the hands of those who killed him - directly and indirectly, and possibly even those who voted towards that end.. The Catholic Church has a very clear stance on that, it has not changed.

    •  The bishops are the problem (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      maf1029, emal, ChadmanFL, Matt Z

      All of the Catholics I know are good people who care about their neighbors and are far less likely to vote for Republicans than the average voter. The problem is with the bishops of the Catholic Church in the United States (there are problems with them elsewhere, too, but this is a discussion about an American problem). I cannot trust Tim Dolan or any of the other bishops. They have demonstrated that they do not care about their neighbors, that they care about power first and last, that they are cynical and manipulative.

      Don't call that anti-catholic propaganda, because it is not. It is very clear to me that most Catholics are wise enough and kind enough not to follow the course that the oppressive bishops are trying to force on them. They realize that the bishops do not represent God in any way. The only question is when they will realize that they only way to break the bishops is by refusing to give the bishops the money that gives them power.

      The GOP is the party of mammon. They mock what Jesus taught.

      by freelunch on Sun Feb 19, 2012 at 11:33:05 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  Stances Are Meaningless Without Action. (6+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      emal, ChadmanFL, skyounkin, Matt Z, maf1029, Debby

      They fight hard for sex control. Every other stance of theirs is nothing more than a throwaway party platform.

      We are called to speak for the weak, for the voiceless, for victims of our nation and for those it calls enemy.... --ML King "Beyond Vietnam"

      by Gooserock on Sun Feb 19, 2012 at 11:46:45 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  Well... (0+ / 0-)
      This is firmly in anti-catholic propaganda territory now.

      It's a shame that such propaganda makes it to to front page on Daily Kos.

      ... it IS a day that ends in "y", so there's that.
  •  The Catholic Church (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    freelunch, maf1029, Matt Z, LSophia

    has persecuted women almost from the beginning.  The followers of St. Paul began the anti-woman trend.  When the espicopates won the doctrine war in the 4th century their fear of women was enshrinned as Truth.  

    This is just the latest outrage perpetrated by the Princes of the Church (as they call themselves in their medieval way) against the 'other' that is female.  This is the institution that defined a woman as 'a sink of inequity' a place where evil resides.  Whose argument against women priests ignores the early history of Christianity, and says that since the Mother Church is the bride of Christ, only men can be the bridegroom.  So, in essence, allowing women to be priests would be gay marriage.  And we all know how they feel about that.

  •  Hypocrisy is the core practice of Christianity (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    maf1029, RadGal70, Matt Z

    in service of its own aggrandizement and self preservation.  Any believer who thinks differently is too naively childish to argue with.  

  •  The RCC jumps in (0+ / 0-)

    in a big way when it is politically expedient for them to do so.  The death penalty is widely favored in America, and they just don't want to be on the other side of that.

    For the record, I do believe that there are crimes which deserve the ultimate societal sanction.  However, I don't have enough faith in our judicial system to not screw up at times like this when it really, really counts, so we should get rid of it in order to err on the side of caution...

    When do I get to vote on your marriage?

    by jarhead5536 on Sun Feb 19, 2012 at 11:27:48 AM PST

  •  The Catholic Church wants a theocracy. (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Gooserock, maf1029, LSophia

    Catholic church goers, in general, just want to practice their religion. It doesn't serve the cause of obtaining a theocracy to oppose killing actual people, which is popular, as does opposing Obamacare, which is not as popular (because it is flawed and not fully implemented yet).

    The leadership knows a wedge issue when they see one. The leadership wants their flock to vote Republican. They do all but preach it on Sunday mornings. In this, they are in league with the fundies.

    They want a theocracy, they want to expand their corporate influence, and as they showed in California in supporting Prop 8, they are willing to crawl into bed with Mormon, Incorporated, to do it.

    This has nothing to do with religion or with the faith of Catholics. It has everything to do with expanding the Catholic corporate brand. Opposing capital punishment would not help the brand; opposing Obamacare under the guise of protecting religion against government infringement does.

  •  They Whine for Justice, They Fight for Sex Control (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    BoiseBlue, maf1029

    You won't see annual election season displays of hungry children, of tortured prisoners, or of peace signs.

    You'll see
    Image Hosted by ImageShack.us
    the abortion crosses.

    We are called to speak for the weak, for the voiceless, for victims of our nation and for those it calls enemy.... --ML King "Beyond Vietnam"

    by Gooserock on Sun Feb 19, 2012 at 11:44:17 AM PST

  •  Birth control is a big money ticket item (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    maf1029, LSophia

    This is the biggest financial issue for the institution of Catholicism. If women refuse to birth, raise, and indoctrinate large numbers of children into believing in the Catholic institution, the church will lose its' access to the cheap money they get from collection plates and service fees (marriage, baptism, funerals etc). It is much less cost effective to have to recruit and convert new members all the time. If men can't control women's reproductive rights it becomes much harder to keep their institutionalized power structures in place.

    Infidels in all ages have battled for the rights of man, and have at all times been the advocates of truth and justice... Robert Ingersol

    by BMarshall on Sun Feb 19, 2012 at 11:45:39 AM PST

  •  The Catholic Church is a Fraud (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    a2nite, maf1029, LSophia

    When I was nine years old, I sat in a catechism class in Columbus, Ohio, led by the local paster.  Even at THAT age, I could understand the blatant contradictions in the "teachings."

    Let me be clear:  Troy Davis was not a Catholic (to my knowledge).  But, the leadership of the church, from priests on up, are focused on the one true element of their beliefs:  If we can procreate enough, we can dominate the world.  THAT is their motivation for objecting to birth control, abortion, and other private, personal matters.  They're no more concerned about "sanctity of life" than is that bear in the woods who sees your campsite as a source of food.

    Unfortunately, I was chained to the Catholic system for the next eight years, because my mother wanted to stay in the good graces of her parents and their money.  (Well, that didn't work!).  At 17, I left home, and have avoided being filthied or corrupted by organized religion ever since.  Now, at 71, happy (and gay), and successful, I owe it all to my ability--through reading and dialog with intellectually curious adults--to recognize the Catholic Church as the hierarchical, men-dominating-women cult that is has been for two millenia.

    I despair when I realize others seem to lack the ability to rely on their brain (even "God-given," if they prefer) to reason, to analyze, to listen between the lines to discover how they are being seduced by an organization which, frankly, don't give a damn whether you or I live or die, so long as they can keep adding to their collection of money and precious artworks that only THEY get to enjoy.

    Just a soul on a roll...

    by CAOgdin on Sun Feb 19, 2012 at 11:46:43 AM PST

  •  D. Penalty isn't about female sexuality, duh!!/nt (0+ / 0-)

    What would Jesus do? Whip the exploiters out of the temple!

    by jhannon on Sun Feb 19, 2012 at 11:47:28 AM PST

  •  dogma (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    maf1029, LSophia

    The only thing more absurd in the 21st century than attempting to force-feed the population the notion that contracept­ion is evil, is the attempt to make them wash it down with religious dogma.

  •  Last week I had an opportunity to attend (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    NWTerriD, maf1029

    a gathering of Catholic lawyers with our local archbishop. It was a low-key dinner, not a place for confrontation. I wanted to hear what he would have to say to such a group.

    He started off with the "non-negotiables"-- abortion and euthenasia. He talked about contraception. Then he talked about immigration.

    There was NOTHING about the death penalty.

    I cannot say I was surprised, but I was disappointed and made sure that I spoke with one of the monsignors present about the subject.

    How you can talk to a group of lawyers, some of whom you KNOW are working on actual innocence cases, with the  dean of the local Catholic university whose law school innocence project helped with a recent very high profile exoneration, and not mention the death penalty is beyond my comprehension.

    I must be dreaming...

    by murphy on Sun Feb 19, 2012 at 11:56:20 AM PST

  •  Reason for the hypocrisy? It's about women. (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    RadGal70, a2nite, maf1029, LSophia

    Seriously, birth control and reproductive freedom are important to women, essentially really in helping us be equal in society.

    And this is why the theocrats hate it. They miss the old days when we women were property.

    "Don't ride in anything with a Capissen 38 engine. They fall right out of the sky." -- Kaywinnit Lee Frye

    by Technowitch on Sun Feb 19, 2012 at 12:05:46 PM PST

  •   I was watching the evening news one night (0+ / 0-)

    just before I left for my roughnecking job in N. Texas the night Karl Wallenda died. I'll  never forget it.
    I could describe the event pretty clearly, but it gives me heebie-jeebies.
    That happened to be the first night I had to climb the tower (drilling rig). I had only been working a couple or 3 weeks in the oil field and I was pretty green.
    We were "making a trip" (taking all of the drill stem out of the ground to put test equipment on the bottom after which we put all the pipe back in the hole, as fast as possible). As it turned out, we had freezing rain pelting us.
    We also had a small leak in the standpipe which carried the drilling mud up to the top of the rig and into the end of the drill stem. It was spraying drilling mud on the metal ladder to the top, which was then freezing.
    The usual tower hand had exhausted himself and had lost the top end of a piece of pipe across on the other side of the derrick, and was too tired to bring it back across. So I had to go up, strap a belt attached by a rope to the railing on my waist, and lean out over the open deck and wrap a rope around the end of the pipe and pull it back over into the forks where the rest of the idle pipe sections rested. The rig was sitting in a wallow of previously plowed farmland , sticky clay, and had sunk deep. The tower pitched like the mast of a whaling ship on the high seas.
    I'll never forget that night.

    I'd rather have a buntle afrota-me than a frottle a bunta-me.

    by David54 on Sun Feb 19, 2012 at 12:31:34 PM PST

  •  Please send your question to the Pope (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    maf1029, LSophia, Debby

    and ask for an explanation for the silence from the band of bishops on the Troy Davis execution. Murdered in cold blood.  
    I was raised Catholic, and have identified with the religion as part of my cultural heritage. As far back as I can go in my family tree- all my relatives are Catholic.  I have not raised my daughter Catholic, and none of my five brothers and two sisters are raising their children Catholic or are members of any Catholic church.
    Hypocrisy is just the tip of the iceberg.
    This Church where I learned my first lessons in social justice has broken my heart many times.
    I have literally needed to vomit in church and had severe migraines due to the subversion of the New Testament that the Catholic Church is based on.
    I have struggled for many years with the question(s)- do I fight from the inside as an active Catholic or leave the Church forever?
    I am a woman. A couple of weeks ago when I attended mass and a letter from the bishop fell out of the bulletin urging parishioners to fight the insurance mandate for birth control- I had the headache again... This is a church that is a haven for the gay community and has a priest who took on Catholic Charities in a sermon for trying to prohibit gay couples from adopting children.
    This church is really a beacon of hope and walks the walk with all kinds of outreach and mission work.
    The priest was silent on the issue of health coverage, and I am faced again with the question- do I fight this from the inside or outside?
    Keep shining the light.

    •  I have friends like you (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      maf1029, donaurora, LSophia

      who ask themselves that question every day.  I admire your courage.  

      I had to leave - my doubts went back to childhood and I finally couldn't take it any more.  I'm much happier now.  When these issues arise it just reminds me that I made the right decision, but I would not tell anyone to follow me.

      I guess that's one difference between me and the bishops.

      •  Difficult to navigate Catholicism (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        LSophia, Debby

        One must make the decision based on personal values. So much of my family identity is tied to Catholicism. And there is still a strong part of me that wants to really the troops- an speak the ultimate truth to the corrupt patriarchal powers that have done so much damage to the religion.

    •  Rec'd for... (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      donaurora, LSophia

      ... this:

      This Church where I learned my first lessons in social justice has broken my heart many times
      .

      You are not alone in that.

      As an aside -- one of the best things I ever did for myself was to abandon that ecclesiastical whorehouse and dump the voodoo. Not saying that that's what you should do, but it was the option which gave me peace of mind and my life back to me.

      "Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction." - Blaise Pascal (1623-1662), Pensées, #894.

      by maf1029 on Sun Feb 19, 2012 at 02:49:32 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  Bishop Wilton Gregory's letter (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    maf1029, LSophia

    was fairly weak tea (Note: Link will download document from site and as far as I can tell there are no security threats) and failed to raise the larger concerns of what it means to be pro-life in a robust Catholic sense.

    Stop clapping. Stop screaming. Open your mind. Listen. (Oh, and I support President Obama in 2012.)

    by Benintn on Sun Feb 19, 2012 at 01:00:17 PM PST

  •  They don't care if u are already born (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    maf1029

    The radical Republican party is the party of oppression, fear, loathing and above all more money and power for the people who robbed us.

    by a2nite on Sun Feb 19, 2012 at 01:22:11 PM PST

  •  In all fairness the Catholic CHurch DID (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Villanova Rhodes

    do what it could:

    Amnesty International has been leading many of the protests in support of Davis, but I'm proud to see a number of prominent Catholics among the rappers and Hollywood types pleading for clemency, among them Savannah’s Catholic bishop emeritus J. Kevin Boland, Atlanta archbishop Wilton Gregory and Pope Benedict. The Diocese of San Jose has the Troy Davis case at the top of its Respect Life webpage (along with a wonderful "seamless garment" mix of other life issues).

    http://ncronline.org/...

    In a letter to the Georgia Board of Pardons and Paroles the bishops of the Catholic Church in Georgia, urge clemency be granted to Troy Davis.  Davis was convicted in 1991 of the murder of Savannan Police Officer Mark MacPhail two years earlier.

    http://www2.wsav.com/...

    O course they only refuse the sacraments and excommunicate over abortion.  But do get the facts right. They DID intervene.

    The last time we mixed religion and politics people got burned at the stake.

    by irishwitch on Sun Feb 19, 2012 at 02:12:49 PM PST

    •  Intervention (0+ / 0-)

      Yeah, too bad bad they couldn't "intervene" as they do when the issue is gay people wanting to be treated equally under the law.
      If only the RCC gave as big a damn for living people as they do for fœtuses....

      "Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction." - Blaise Pascal (1623-1662), Pensées, #894.

      by maf1029 on Sun Feb 19, 2012 at 03:00:14 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  They did everythign they could do in the Davis (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Villanova Rhodes

        case. I left the church over 40 years ago over sexuality (and all its permutations--I had gay friends and I found the bigotry to be unconscionable). But in this case they were on teh right side.

        I woudl love to see the church change on birth control, sexuality, abortion--but I don't expect it too.  And I have to give them credit where credit is due int he Davis case becaue factually, the diary was wrong. Hold their feet to the fire over Prop 8 and other outrages like the contraception BS, but also admit when they get it right--or we becoem as bad as them.

        The last time we mixed religion and politics people got burned at the stake.

        by irishwitch on Sun Feb 19, 2012 at 03:31:35 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Ok, so.... (0+ / 0-)

          ... birth control is against the Catholic rules and regs.
          During the "OMG, it's birth control covered by insurance, run for your lives" bruhaha, the RCC corporate {from the Vatican on down} claimed that because birth control is against their made-up voodoo rules and regs, their freedom of religion was being stifled.
          Therefore, they had a public conniption/hissy fit and demanded (and got) media coverage, which swayed public opinion to the side of "religious liberty" as the RCC saw it.

          Now, last time I checked, murder was also against the Catholic rules and regs.  
          Where was the institutional outrage, from the Vatican on down, when Troy Davis' state-approved murder was being publicized? Sorry, but a few "locals" acting on their own doesn't begin to compare.
          So how come the RCC can't get it up for murder, but birth control gets their collective institutional panties in a bunch?  

          That was the point, any apologetics and seeming dismissal of the context notwithstanding.

          "Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction." - Blaise Pascal (1623-1662), Pensées, #894.

          by maf1029 on Sun Feb 19, 2012 at 04:09:37 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  In what sense is the Pope a "local"? (0+ / 0-)

            He pleaded more than once for commutation.

            The Vatican added its support this week for commuting Davis' sentence to life in prison without parole.

            A U.S. envoy for Pope Benedict XVI, the leader of 1.1 billion Roman Catholics worldwide, sent a letter urging state officials to consider the special circumstances in the case, specifically that Davis' "conviction was not based on any physical evidence, and the murder weapon was never found."

            "The pope continually exhorts all people, and especially those men and women who serve in government, to recognize the sacredness of all human life," wrote Monsignor Martin Krebs. "I reiterate the commitment of the Holy Father, Pope Benedict XVI, to uphold the sacredness and dignity of all human life, and I hope that you will give heed to his petition."
            ...
            Jason Ewart, an appeal attorney for Davis, said he was upbeat about the pope's involvement.

            "I think most people could discern that the pope is against all loss of life. He's an abolitionist when it comes to the death penalty," Ewart said. "But you don't hear his name associated with every death penalty case. I think he came out on this case because it's an example of a needless loss of life."

            2007 link, bold added
            Despite a last-ditch appeal to the United States Supreme Court and calls for clemency from dignitaries like Jimmy Carter and Pope Benedict XVI, Troy Davis was executed in Georgia today.
            2011 link

            Sticking your fingers in your ears and yelling "la, la, la, I can't hear you" does not actually mean that no one is speaking.

            •  Nice try (0+ / 0-)
              "The pope blahblah all people, blahblah all human life," wrote Monsignor Martin Krebs. "I reiterate blahblah to yukkayukka all human life, and I hope barfbarfbarf."
              -- No mention of Troy Davis.
              -- No direct mention of murder being against Catholic voodoo doctrine.
              -- Martin Krebs ≠ the Pope, who did take time out of his busy schedule {allegedly screwing his alleged boyfriend} to bitch and moan about the Birth Control Bruhaha directly more than once, instead of sending a flunkie to read a statement.  
              -- oblique lip service statement of general principle ≠ direct condemnation {cf birth control bruhaha}

              So while Herr Krebs is exhorting, recognizing, reiterating, hoping, and heeding without mentioning an actual murder of a living non-fetus that was planned and publicized well in advance, Troy Davis didn't even rate a mention from His Holeyness.
              Nice try.

              "Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction." - Blaise Pascal (1623-1662), Pensées, #894.

              by maf1029 on Sun Feb 19, 2012 at 06:46:20 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

          •  Bishops don't write those sorts of letters (0+ / 0-)

            without Vatican approval.  I had 16 years of Catholic education--the church ain't a democracy.  The Pope backed them. NOT a fan of this Pope or the U.S. bishops. Left the church 40+ years ago over precisely birth control, abortion, women's roles, and homosexuality (not to mention the attitude toward sex within marriage--gay or straight). But I DO prefer the facts being straight, and this diary, whether you lie it or not was factually incorrect. The  bishops did protest and did what they could.  GA is NOT exactly a Catholic state. he governopr is a Baptist, and he would ahve been more likely to listen to his own clergy than to Catholic bishops.

            And I completely HATE the way the bishops acted about the contraception coverage, and have loudly condemned them in other places. But Facts are Facts, even if in this case they place the U.S. bishops in a slightly mroe favorable light. ANd this is typical of the church. They didn't threaten excommunication f anyone over this, but had Deal endorsed abortion, he might have been turned awa y at the communion rail.

            Facts matter. This is a reality-based community.  The facts are that the bishops did what they could--but it also shows that the church consisers capital punishment  (and any social justice issue, like the unemployment benefits extension or A living wage) less important tahn abortion. That's enough to make them look pretty damned bad. But this is a relaity-based site, and FACTS MATTER.

            The last time we mixed religion and politics people got burned at the stake.

            by irishwitch on Sun Feb 19, 2012 at 07:36:07 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

  •  comment regarding religion: (0+ / 0-)

    not all religions, the study of which i do not have time for, whether or not i am interested in studying them and preparing a spreadsheet of 'issue-based comparisons' --

    just christianity. because it seems this one is being most meddlesome at present,

    -- and just catholicism, the choice of the talibanistic candidate presently in favor.

    having selected america's greek orthodox church, one of the group which santorum (individually, not his church, universally) subjected to takfir, there is this:

    "The official Church strongly prefers that its laity be involved in government and politics, and embody Christian values to the extent possible given the governmental and political systems in force. This approach avoids the evils of a theocratic system, while encouraging a more general lay involvement in the embodiment of the ideal of the Kingdom of Heaven in Church-State relationships.

    The basic role of government is to provide protection and to ensure justice. The Church sees God as the source of justice; therefore, it shares His concern about justice within the State. In the political process, which seeks to embody justice, there are numerous means by which the Church has sought to further its concern for justice. In the ancient imperial system, churchmen had not only sought to form the character and conscience of the Emperor in general, but frequently "whispered in the ear of the emperor" with reference to specific issues. The Church was a force for the improvement of laws, "toward greater philanthropy." In present-day democratic societies Orthodox hierarchs, ecclesiastical bodies, and even individual Orthodox Christians, must often publicly protest injustice, participate in the legislative process, and use other political means to further political issues with moral implications."

    Addington's perpwalk is the trailhead of accountability for this wound to our national psyche. (But go ahead and arrest Rumsfeld, too.)

    by greenbird on Sun Feb 19, 2012 at 04:20:33 PM PST

  •  comment on goosebumps: (0+ / 0-)

    Addington's perpwalk is the trailhead of accountability for this wound to our national psyche. (But go ahead and arrest Rumsfeld, too.)

    by greenbird on Sun Feb 19, 2012 at 04:51:15 PM PST

  •  comment with open culture: (0+ / 0-)

    Addington's perpwalk is the trailhead of accountability for this wound to our national psyche. (But go ahead and arrest Rumsfeld, too.)

    by greenbird on Sun Feb 19, 2012 at 04:56:32 PM PST

  •  Bishops can be "cafeteria Catholics" too. (0+ / 0-)

    Bishops can be "cafeteria Catholics" too.

    So can Newt Gingrich and Rick Santorum. So can conservative Supreme Court justices (does anyone doubt that Antonin Scalia would be happier to live in a theocracy? Well, one run by conservative Catholics, anyway, though any conservative religious movement would probably satisfy his desire to make people follow what someone's god decrees, so long as he was able to claim to define it).

    The left's problem with making this argument against conservative Catholics is that it's not as meaningful of an insult, nor is it as natural of a critique; it's like the liberal quandary when accusing conservative Republicans of bad behavior in regards to sex scandals: In those situations, of course conservative Republicans treat women badly, or gay lovers badly; it's their ideology, so it's not a surprise. (This is why it's "News" when Bill Clinton or John Edwards or some Democrat is accused of unseemly sexual behavior; Democrats are supposed to treat women better in individual interactions because it's the party's policy.)

    But the Bishops are supposed to know better, or to be more theologically coherent, or at least not put on their special "Don't Attack Me, I'm Catholic!" hats when they're fighting for some causes but go into hiding when other causes are being discussed.

    At least, not if they want to avoid having some of their own favorite words - "You cafeteria Catholics!" - thrown right back into their faces.

    Politico: Because Republicans need something to jerk off to.

    by Christopher on Sun Feb 19, 2012 at 10:23:01 PM PST

  •  well put. (0+ / 0-)

    the hypocrisy. just boggles my mind.

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