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A day after Wisconsin Governor Scott Walker signed into law measures that will allow a public wolf hunt this year, the Minnesota state legislature is about to pass bills that will create a public wolf hunt and trap season that responsible advocates for wilderness and wildlife will insist Governor Dayton veto

This PSA has just started to run on television, and is now  part of an online campaign called #Howling4Wolves. The website has a form for you to sign a letter and send comments to MN Governor Mark Dayton.
 

Please read and sign the letter and add your thoughtful comment, and then post something to twitter like

Watch, like, share http://youtu.be/... new #Howling4Wolves PSA in all your social media networks! Thank you! #mnleg #occupymn
Or click through to YouTube, sign in and like the video and embed it on your on blog or web comment where a few more people will see it today.

I'll have updates throughout the day, and more resources and links that show how respectful and responsible Minnesotans in Northern Minnesotans want to live with our wolf population intact. We can't have healthy, diverse forests without wolves, and we won't have half the magic we have sharing this landscape with these spiritually and culturally potent symbols of who we are as a State if we reduce them to pelts and trophies. We don't want to be Idaho, or Walker's Wisconsin, and obviously people in those places don't want to live like we do.

For what ever reason, the hateful wolf hunt measures are part of the Republican agenda to wipe out wildness, goodness, and balance in this world, and in the process turn it into another dollar bill.

We can see the the True Wealth of wilderness, and choose to work to preserve that opportunity for others including future generations, beginning by taking the actions above.

8:13 AM PT: Here is an additional resource and sense of the people's preference up North and in Indian Country: Nishiime Ma'iingan (Brother Wolf)

Here is a story about reservations & regret wolf trackers have about Wisconsin's decision

8:24 AM PT: From an e-mail source: At 9 minutes 11 sec into Dr. Mech's testimony before MN legislature, he said an immediate hunt would have unpredictable results

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Comment Preferences

  •  Last year (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Mariken, Frank Knarf, ban nock, exterris

    we had more pictures of wolves on our trail cameras at our hunting land than we had of deer.

    The wolf population in Minnesota is more than healthy enough to withstand a limited hunt.  We have more wolves than all of the rest of the lower 48 states combined.

    From my understanding, the current proposal calls for the hunt to be capped at 400 wolves taken.  I suspect that the actual number of wolves killed will be far less.

    I like wolves, and have enjoyed seeing them in the wild on several occasions, but like other animal populations, I think this population should be managed, and the only practical, effective way to do so includes hunting.  I dislike the trapping idea.

    The wolves in Minnesota will in no way be threatened with extinction when this hunt takes place.

    •  wolf populations have been managing (8+ / 0-)

      themselves just fine without our interference for centuries.

      Never forget that the Republican War on Women originated with religion; the GOP is but theocracy's handmaiden.

      by Cedwyn on Tue Apr 03, 2012 at 06:01:27 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  fishy (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Agathena, myboo
      we had more pictures of wolves on our trail cameras at our hunting land than we had of deer
      If you have trails and cameras like that, invite some bright young field biologists to verify that and they are made...

      Minnesota Public Radio had a nice short blurn yesterday about deer exclusion plots in long term studies and forest biodiversity.

      The rest of the state is suffering from the absence of wolves...

      Anyone who needs to hunt a wolf can go to Idaho or Wisconsin now, but we don't need to risk this public hunt and cheapen this powerful symbol of Northwoods identity, freedom and of the First Peoples.

      •  I don't really need (4+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        rockhound, Frank Knarf, ban nock, exterris

        any verification of the photos, since they were taken on our cameras on our land, complete with the date/time stamp showing when the pictures were taken.

        Just to be clear, I won't be hunting the wolves myself, since I don't plan to eat them, and I'm not big on decorating with dead animals.

        I'd be happy to support your cause if there were solid scientific reasons to do so (such as threatened extinction, etcetera) rather than just the emotional and romanticized reasons stated in your last paragraph.

        The wolf population in Minnesota will survive, with or without a hunt.

        •  Make a diary here with those pics (0+ / 0-)

          That would be awesome, if you are not lying.

          Publishing the evidence you claim to have would be the first part of the science you say you support.

          •  This is the second time, (4+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Pager, rockhound, dagolfnut, ban nock

            in a diary in which you asked for thoughtful comments, that you have accused me of lying, with no reason to do so.

            That is thoughtful?

            I will see if I can figure out how to post a picture and add it as a comment to this diary.  

            •  That would be awesome. (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              rockhound, CalvinTheBold

              I live in Colorado and we've had one or two migrate down here but they haven't lived long enough for us to enjoy their company. I know MN has a healthy population. If you can post a pic, please do. It would make my day to see it. :)

              And to the guy calling you a liar, so not cool, dude. Lay off the insults, Impeccable. It's not doing much for your cause, particularly with people like me who would normally be a 100% in your corner.

              I can just about forgive the Brits for starting our revolutionary war and burning DC to the ground during the war of 1812 for giving us Led Zeppelin.

              by Pager on Tue Apr 03, 2012 at 06:43:32 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  So emotion about wilderness & wolves not cool (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                JayRaye, exterris

                But someone claiming to support reasoning based on evidence, peer review, etc. needs to resort to emotion and claim insult when challenged about a spectacularly improbable claim?

                Wolves are really pretty significant up here culturally.

                Apparently down in the Cities, too, where a major league sports team that actually has a nice new publicly subsidized stadium is named after them.

                Wolves have a value and appeal in Minnesota that is greater than the mean-spirited rancher on wolf violence we see in Western state where they were reintroduced.

                Minnesotans love wolves. If there was a place were wolves were that easily sighted - more abundant than deer - there would be a lot of talk and a well worn trail packed with nature photographers with giant bushy beards. Dr. L. D. Mech would encamped there...

                We will love to see your wolf pics and some of the deer pics too.

                •  Here's a link to one of the pics, (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  rockhound, Pager

                  which is the only one that I have saved at my work computer:

                  href="http://www.flickr.com/...

                  The picture shows four of the wolves that we got photos of last year.

                  Impeccable, just to clarify, I never said that the wolves are more abundant than deer; only that last year we captured more pictures of wolves on our trail cameras than we did of deer.  Other factors, such as camera placement, and possibly the weather conditions that we had last year (super wet early part of the year, which drives the deer off of our property since their bedding areas are submerged) could have played a role in this as well.

                  As far as going somewhere to see the wolves in person, good luck.  Wolves are very smart and wary of humans.  I've only seen them in the wild five times in my life; twice while hunting, twice while canoeing the BWCA, and once while skiing on Lake Vermilion (a pack of 16 that time).

                  Anyway, enjoy the picture.

                  •  Oh wow! (2+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    CalvinTheBold, exterris

                    Oh man, I'm so envious of you. That had to make your day seeing that picture.

                    Yeah, wolves and grizzlies--the only reason they have managed not to be obliterated into extinction is because they go out of their way to avoid humans. Worse, for grizzlies, without wildlife corridors, they cannot procreate which eventually leads to their dwindling numbers.

                    We desperately could use wolves in some parts of Colorado because we are being overrun with elk. To make matters worse, they reintroduced moose to the west side of Rocky Mtn Nat'l Park about 10 years ago. We only really have one major predator--the mountain lion--and the cats are not big enough to effectively take down moose. They mostly feed on mule deer.

                    The cattle and sheep ranchers have a strong, strong foothold in this state and have fought reintroduction of wolves every step of the way. I don't see reintroduction happening here any time soon and without them, our whole ecosystem is unbalanced and at risk. The elk and mule deer are wiping out the aspens and willows, which reduces songbird habitats, beavers and only creates larger coyotes.

                    Thank you for the picture. You made my day, Calvin.

                    I can just about forgive the Brits for starting our revolutionary war and burning DC to the ground during the war of 1812 for giving us Led Zeppelin.

                    by Pager on Tue Apr 03, 2012 at 08:09:35 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Thanks! (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      Pager

                      Some of the other pictures are much cooler and give you a better impression of their size, including the adults.  The four pictured here are juveniles, I think, based upon their size in other pictures next to some of the bigger ones.

                      In one of the pictures, one of the adults is rubbing its head on a salt/mineral block that is about one cubic foot in size, so you can really gauge how big the wolves are.

                •  Grew up in No MN (1+ / 0-)

                  Wolves are rarely seen. Deer are everywhere. All we had to do as kids was watch our salt lick in the evening and deer would show up.

                  Don't like to call anyone a liar, but this claim of seeing more wolves than deer is a strange one.

                  Solidarity Forever, for the Union makes us strong.-Ralph Chaplin, 1915

                  by JayRaye on Tue Apr 03, 2012 at 07:26:33 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  I'm not sure how long it's been (3+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    rockhound, Pager, ban nock

                    since you've been in northern Minnesota, but the deer herd is nowhere near what it once was.

                    This is not due in any large part to the presence of wolves; it's primarily due to the DNR overselling "surplus" tags for deer, as well as weather conditions affecting the survivability of the deer herd.

                    In our hunting area, we went from being able to buy a regular deer license plus five surplus doe tags in one year to having only one license available the following year.

                    Our hunting land is not what I would consider prime deer hunting land anyway, many years it's wet, which, as I mentioned in an earlier post, drives the deer to higher ground.

                    You are free to believe what you like, but with no reason to believe that I am a liar, I question why you would do so.

                    •  Living on a back woods farm is (2+ / 0-)

                      different than owning hunting land. We were depended  on our land for survival. Hunting deer was for survival not for sport.

                      I did not call you a liar. I stated that your claim appears strange to me and not supported by what I know about No MN. I still have family in No MN.

                      Solidarity Forever, for the Union makes us strong.-Ralph Chaplin, 1915

                      by JayRaye on Tue Apr 03, 2012 at 07:49:48 AM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  Understood. (1+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        JayRaye

                        Thanks for clarifying.

                        •  I want to try and explain more about (1+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          CalvinTheBold

                          why your view of wolves seems strange to me. It's more about what you don't say about the wolves on your land than what you do say. For example, you get some photos from trail cameras and see a lot of wolves, and then conclude that there are plenty of wolves. Enuf for hunting.

                          Yet you say nothing about the wolf pack on your land. Where is their den? Their rendezvous? What trails do they use? How big is the pack? Which ones are the alphas? Why do you have such a lack of curiosity about the wolves on your land? Since you haven't taken the time to get to know these wolves, how can you be sure that the pack would survive the hunting season? The pack raises the young, so how would they survive the hunting season?

                          If we had had a wolf pack on our land, we would know the answer to all of these questions.

                          Yet, MN is about to allow hunters who cannot (or don't care to) answer these questions to go out into the wilderness and shoot wolves.

                          I truly don't mean to attack you. Sport hunters tend to make the argument: there are plenty of wolves, and then show photos of wolves as proof of wolf numbers without demonstrating any knowledge of wolves. Sadly, much of the public is also ignorant & so a photo is worth more than, say, actual education.

                          Solidarity Forever, for the Union makes us strong.-Ralph Chaplin, 1915

                          by JayRaye on Tue Apr 03, 2012 at 08:52:24 AM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  Unless you happen to be (2+ / 0-)

                            psychic, I doubt that you can infer much about my view of wolves from things I haven't said.  

                            The photos of the wolves on my land are not indicative of the scope of my knowledge or curiosity level about them in any way.

                            I think you'd be better served by reading the things that I have said, such as that I like wolves, have no intention of hunting them, and have enjoyed seeing them in the wild on the five occasions that I have done so.

                            The recovery goal for Minnesota wolves, when they were placed on the ESL, was to have a sustainable population of 1600 animals in the state.  Currently, minimum estimates put the population at over 3500 animals.

                            I'd much rather have any plans for management of the population be based upon actual research and science rather than emotional appeals.  The state intends to manage the population, which means that the wolf hunt in Minnesota is going to happen, sooner rather than later.

                            I just hope it's done in the smartest way possible that reaches a workable accommodation for both sides.  

                          •  What you call emotional (0+ / 0-)

                            Other people call sacred. An understanding of the sacred does not preclude research or science. Perhaps some hunting needs to be done, but it needs to be under control those who know wolves. You take a few photos, and not by getting close to the wolves, but with a trail camera. How scientific is that?

                            This is typical also of sports hunters to claim that any defense of wolves is "emotional." I guess Native Americans who honor and respect the wolf are just being "emotional."

                            Solidarity Forever, for the Union makes us strong.-Ralph Chaplin, 1915

                            by JayRaye on Tue Apr 03, 2012 at 12:00:07 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Sigh. (0+ / 0-)

                            No, what I call emotional is emotional sentiments based not on science or research, such as "Look at the pretty wolf!"

                            Where do you get the idea that my trail cam photos have anything to do with my viewpoints on wolf management?  They don't, and I haven't said that they do.

                            I don't have any judgement of, or knowledge of, the Native American viewpoint (as if there is only one) regarding wolves, except to note that Native Americans also killed wolves, and not only for sacred rituals.

                          •  And by the way Mr Science (0+ / 0-)

                            You never did answer any of the questions I asked about the wolf pack on your land. All of those questions could be considered scientific.

                            Solidarity Forever, for the Union makes us strong.-Ralph Chaplin, 1915

                            by JayRaye on Tue Apr 03, 2012 at 02:36:06 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Very well: (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            JayRaye
                            Yet you say nothing about the wolf pack on your land. Where is their den? Their rendezvous? What trails do they use? How big is the pack? Which ones are the alphas? Why do you have such a lack of curiosity about the wolves on your land? Since you haven't taken the time to get to know these wolves, how can you be sure that the pack would survive the hunting season? The pack raises the young, so how would they survive the hunting season?
                            Their den is not on our land.  Wolf packs cover a vast area; our land is 160 acres, and I know it well.  There is an active bear den on the land, but no wolf dens.

                            Their rendezvous site, similarly, is not on our land.

                            The trails that they use?  Clearly, among others, are the ones captured on our trail cameras.

                            How big is the pack?  Ten to twelve, it seems.

                            Which ones are the alphas?  I'm almost certain I know which one is the alpha male; I'm not quite as sure about the alpha female.  The betas are the other two adults in the pack.

                            Why do I have such a lack of curiosity about the wolves on our land?  This shows another incorrect assumption on your part.

                            Since you haven't taken the time to get to know these wolves, how can you be sure that the pack would survive the hunting season?  I can assure you, I know more about these particular wolves than you do.  Studies have shown that wolf populations can tolerate a 20-25% mortality rate each year with no decline in the population.  I can't be sure that this particular pack would survive a hunting season, since they don't spend all of their time on our land, but I think it's very unlikely that the entire pack would be killed.

                            The pack raises the young, so how would they survive the hunting season?  For the same reasons cited in response to the question above.

                            By the way, "Mr. Science?"  I guess we're past the point where you truly don't mean to attack me.

                            How about you, friend?  What are your wolf expertise credentials?

                •  That's not what I said. (0+ / 0-)

                  Good Lord, don't put words in my mouth. I'm on your side, you fool. I said stop calling a poster a liar. That's what I said.

                  Got it? Do you need me to be clearer?

                  I can just about forgive the Brits for starting our revolutionary war and burning DC to the ground during the war of 1812 for giving us Led Zeppelin.

                  by Pager on Tue Apr 03, 2012 at 08:01:43 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  I think everyone wants to see MN wolf pics (0+ / 0-)

                    I don't think we are going to find members of the MN public that have compelling need or even a strong desire to shoot a wolf or trap a wolf through the legislature's proposed wolf hunt/trap seasons.

                    So there aren't "sides".

                    I live in the Northwoods and I have some academic training and even a little paid experience in field biology and habitat management, but wolves & large mammals are not my area.

                    I mostly fool around with plants and would love to do microbial ecology... insects, plants, fungi drive he system but your not going to get partisan legislators to write effective conservation legislation about that.

                    The ETHNOBIOLOGY OF WOLVES would be a fascinating study, but I know a liitle bit about tropical ethnobotany.

                    In any case, a wolf/trap season is at best a risky bet and an insult to most Minnesotans, and possibly a big mistake..

          •  Those who disagree with your position are liars? (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            CalvinTheBold, ban nock

            Kind of harsh, even for a wildlife thread.

            Where are we, now that we need us most?

            by Frank Knarf on Tue Apr 03, 2012 at 08:35:31 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  If they claim pics and don't post (0+ / 0-)

              Then they are holding out their wolf pics at best...

              and everyone wants to see pictures of Minnesota's wolves.

              No member of the general public really wants to shoot or trap them - there is no need, and it's an offensive idea to most.

              •  You did see the link to the wolf (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                rockhound, ban nock

                picture that I posted, correct?

                And this

                No member of the general public really wants to shoot or trap them - there is no need, and it's an offensive idea to most.
                is a sweeping generalization at best.  I have no interest in hunting the wolves myself (nor, thankfully, do the other members of my family who hunt on our property), but I think there will be a large number of hunters who will buy a Minnesota wolf tag, based upon the very small chance that they will see them while deer hunting.

                Actually, that brings up something else that I should mention:  I think that your group would have a far greater chance of success by focusing your efforts on trying to make sure that the wolf hunting season does not coincide with the firearms deer season, which is when most hunters are in the woods.

                A later season, separate from the firearms deer season, would greatly reduce the number of wolf hunters.

                •  I am actually not a part of HowlingForWolves group (0+ / 0-)

                  But I know how badly Governor Dayton will hurt himself and our party if he votes to approve the wolf hunt based on the way I have seen Native American leaders organize around threats to wolves in this town in the past.

                  I suspect that the traditional spiritual leaders are aware of something that is very real, and that by killing a wolf for sport or out of malice would be a very deep injury to your being.

                  Going the purely atheistic and materialistic route, for me, would be dishonest - but I have in  the past dissected lots of critics for the sake of my education and I am not going to argue that landowners raising cattle (as inappropriate as might be) shouldn't be able to resort to some control measure through a permit with the DNR and USDA.

                  My goal here is to help a friend and give Minnesotans a chance to provide input before the legislature and Governor Dayton make a final decision. It will be a fateful one.

                  •  Both of our Democratic senators, (2+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    ban nock, exterris

                    Amy Klobuchar and Al Franken, were strong supporters of delisting the wolf population in Minnesota, which is why the state is now in the process of enacting its management plan.

                    I haven't seen or heard any hue or cry from the general public against either senator as a result.

                    Governor Dayton will sign the bill.

                    I'm sorry, but that is what I expect.

                    I appreciate what you're saying, and you seem like a good-hearted person with good intentions, but again, I think your friend's group would be far more successful in trying to make sure that the management plan is as smart as it can be, rather than trying to eliminate the management plan entirely.

                    •  Well, I made a mistake w/ volunteering (0+ / 0-)

                      ...for Dayton and Franken then, and writing checks to Klobuchar that amounted to 15-20% of my income in 2006.

                      They will find out they made a mistake. But I suspect that you're not exactly correct... it was Senator Tester who pushed for the de-listing, and the combination of playing politics and the courts over wolves and the Endangered Species Act was not a science-based determination that wolves have recovered.

                      The party is super-fragile right now. People want more immediate, direct democracy and the game Amy and Al choose to play in D.C. may be hard to explain back home.

                      Dayton is hard to explain. The hope that he could make a courageous decision that would be wiser than one Emmer would make - as he did with his prescient vote against the AUMF - is why he is governor now.

                      He may screw that hope up, permanently by pursuit corrupt and undemocratic moves towards a stadium with Minneapolis money and no referendum, and he might screw that up with wolves and mining.

                      We will see.

              •  I won't call that statement a lie because you (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                CalvinTheBold

                obviously believe it.  I suppose you could try to argue that anyone who is in favor of shooting wolves does not belong to the general population or some other strange evasion.

                I would never shoot a wolf or a lion, since I only kill animals I intend to eat.  Other hunters have a different view and there is a rational case to made for managing predator populations in areas with conflicts.  Those who disagree with your position are not necessarily liars or evil SOBs.

                Where are we, now that we need us most?

                by Frank Knarf on Tue Apr 03, 2012 at 09:56:56 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

    •  Calvin I applaud your attempt to introduce some (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      CalvinTheBold

      common sense and reason to the discussion, but as I found out a long time ago when I ventured onto my first wolf thread you are entering the land of emotion and there is just no reasoning with that.

      After following this issue for a couple few years one truism I've observed is that the longer a state has a wolf population, the greater the human population grows supportive of strong wolf management measures. Judicial road blocks result in ever more forceful control efforts and "Legislative Remedies" as senator Kublachar threatened. In the Northern Rocky Mountains they are now hunting, trapping and arial culling via wildlife services.

      The Northern Yellowstone Elk Herd which used to be the largest migrating elk herd on the planet has been decimated 80% with calf numbers down around 10% this year it might well vanish. An ecological disaster.

      Signing petitions such as Howling 4 whatever only make things worse. More wolves culled and more inflexible laws.

      “Some students of natural history want no predator control at all, while many hunters and farmers want as much as they can get up to complete eradication. Both extremes are biologically unsound….” Aldo Leopold

      by ban nock on Tue Apr 03, 2012 at 01:15:39 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Charismatic megafauna (0+ / 0-)

    The value of highly visible species that people have excessive sentiment for - in simplifying wilderness policy has obviously been a weird legal trap that defies scientific scrutiny but but fuels an industry of slick conservation pamphlet publishing.

    Without a doubt the Endangered Species Act classification of the Gray Wolf and the highly improbable but incredibly delicious creation of the Boundary Waters Canoe Area and Voyager's National Park are the reason people have any sense of what the country once was.

    Someday we will hold each seed and each beetle in as much esteem as we do the skinny wolf pup - but probably when we all live in some 12 monkeys subterranean airlock network after a few more Fukushima accidents.

  •  As someone who has spent much time in (0+ / 0-)

    the BWCA, I must say, I'm disappointed in MN. Leave the BWCA alone. MN has a treasure that other states could only dream of.

    I'm not one to call anyone a liar, but wolves are rarely seen. They avoid humans. In all my time up there, I only ever saw one, and then only for about half a minute.

    What do the hunters plan to do with the wolves? Eat them?

    MN has an overabundance of deer, not wolves.

    Solidarity Forever, for the Union makes us strong.-Ralph Chaplin, 1915

    by JayRaye on Tue Apr 03, 2012 at 07:13:49 AM PDT

  •  ILC (0+ / 0-)

    Have you contacted the International Wolf Center in Ely. I would imagine that they also oppose hunting wolves. Correct?

    Wolf hunting is not about #'s, exactly, but about packs. Hunting can devastate a pack, & packs are how wolves survive.

    Solidarity Forever, for the Union makes us strong.-Ralph Chaplin, 1915

    by JayRaye on Tue Apr 03, 2012 at 07:20:59 AM PDT

  •  More Minnesotans wildlife watchers than hunters (0+ / 0-)

    According to the MN DNR’s 2006 report, “Wildlife Recreation and Tourism Considerations”,  more Minnesotans watch wildlife than are hunters by a ratio of almost 4:1 (2,155,000:597,000).  

    Wildlife watchers also spend more than hunters, $531M vs. $483M.

    •  and wildlife watchers pay nothing for the (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      CalvinTheBold

      care of wildlife, hunters pay all the tab.

      “Some students of natural history want no predator control at all, while many hunters and farmers want as much as they can get up to complete eradication. Both extremes are biologically unsound….” Aldo Leopold

      by ban nock on Tue Apr 03, 2012 at 06:25:34 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  I'll comment from the perspective of Idaho. (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    CalvinTheBold, ban nock

    The only way we will have a wolf population here is to have a managed wolf population.  I've spent years supporting efforts to protect wilderness, reduce abusive grazing on public lands, and to promote non-game wildlife conservation.

    A purely sentimental approach, or even a completely scientific one that does not recognize social imperatives is doomed to failure.  Just as with wilderness preservation, compromise with various stakeholders is the only way forward.

    Where are we, now that we need us most?

    by Frank Knarf on Tue Apr 03, 2012 at 08:44:29 AM PDT

    •  Maybe Minnesota has more intact public land (0+ / 0-)

      or a stronger sense of commonwealth than the idea that public lands need to be offered up to any commercial interest to extract wealth from them and then leave the cleanup and remediation to the public sector, a debt to future generations.

      There is one hideous peat mining project in the Pine Island State Forest that more Minnesotans need to be upset about, but the scale of Western States mining mistakes are truly much larger...

      •  Idaho is 64% public land, with approximately (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        CalvinTheBold, ban nock

        4.5 million acres of designated wilderness, and additional vast roadless areas.  Within 25 miles of the state capital you will find wolves, elk, mountain lions and black bears.  The next looming conflict concerns grizzly bear habitat and management.  I'll expand my comment with a prediction.  No state will ultimately have wolf population without control by hunting.  Hopefully we will avoid the worse alternatives of trapping or poisoning.

        http://wilderness.org/...

        Where are we, now that we need us most?

        by Frank Knarf on Tue Apr 03, 2012 at 09:48:34 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Idaho wolf hunt a mess (0+ / 0-)

          in a state were you might have more support for that ugly impulse, you still have the reaction to imagery oof the hunt degrading discourse to what is essentially prosecutable domestic terrorism en masse. We don't need that in MN!

          •  As a Minnesota native who lived for years in the (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            ban nock, CalvinTheBold

            red/green bubble surrounding Seward Co-op, I understand your view of Idaho as a retrograde haven for neo-Nazis and blood-lusting savages of all sorts.  Don't let reality get in the way of your prejudices.

            There are strong opinions on both sides of this issue in Idaho as elsewhere.  I personally do not think the wolf population in Idaho is so large or so troublesome as to require hunting, yet.  But Idaho and Minnesota both will eventually settle on management plans that involve killing some wolves somehow.  To think otherwise is to ignore social and political reality.

            Where are we, now that we need us most?

            by Frank Knarf on Tue Apr 03, 2012 at 12:31:53 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Statewide elk count down from 125k to 100K (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              CalvinTheBold

              “Some students of natural history want no predator control at all, while many hunters and farmers want as much as they can get up to complete eradication. Both extremes are biologically unsound….” Aldo Leopold

              by ban nock on Tue Apr 03, 2012 at 01:21:16 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

          •  I read this comment backwards and forewards (0+ / 0-)

            and still can't make heads of tails. Less rhetoric maybe.

            “Some students of natural history want no predator control at all, while many hunters and farmers want as much as they can get up to complete eradication. Both extremes are biologically unsound….” Aldo Leopold

            by ban nock on Tue Apr 03, 2012 at 06:24:04 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

      •  MN has 9 million acres combined state and federal (0+ / 0-)

        Idaho has 35 million.

        Idaho seems a little more wildernessy too.

        “Some students of natural history want no predator control at all, while many hunters and farmers want as much as they can get up to complete eradication. Both extremes are biologically unsound….” Aldo Leopold

        by ban nock on Tue Apr 03, 2012 at 06:23:01 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  Two great Democratic Senators you have (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    CalvinTheBold

    and that's why I like them.

    “Some students of natural history want no predator control at all, while many hunters and farmers want as much as they can get up to complete eradication. Both extremes are biologically unsound….” Aldo Leopold

    by ban nock on Tue Apr 03, 2012 at 12:17:51 PM PDT

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