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Today I did voter registration at a local library. We were set up at a table in the foyer. At another table, a teenager in a boy scout uniform was publicizing his Eagle project -- a good project, actually, a blood drive for a local hospital.

My husband talked to the boy and was about to give a donation but I stopped him. We don't do donations to the boy scouts.

I went over to talk to the boy and his girlfriend a little later and explained that it wasn't anything personally against him, but we don't support the boy scouts because of their anti-homosexual policies. The girlfriend looked startled and said, "Really, I didn't know anything about that!" The boy said, "Well, it's 'don't ask, don't tell.'" I said, "Sorry, no."

"Boy scouts, wow, they're as American as apple pie," but I don't like the Boy Scout organization and I want people to know why. I may have come across as a scrooge, but at least I had planted the idea in the girlfriend's head that the organization is discriminatory and hopefully she will google and find websites that confirm what I said.

When the young man said, "It's "don't ask, don't tell," it made me seethe silently. First of all, "don't ask, don't tell" is the army's policy, not the boy scouts, and the army repealed DADT last September. Second, the Boy Scouts of America does not have DADT as their official policy, it's just something that some local groups do. Third, where do they get off forcing young homosexual boys to stay in the closet. WTF!

Okay, that's about all the venting I can do tonight.

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Comment Preferences

  •  This needs to be brought up (22+ / 0-)

    once in a while. It's a subject that seems to have been swept under the rug but it's really vile and ugly and needs to see daylight more often. The boy scouts need to e outed for their homophobia for all the world to see.

  •  Good for you. Your post reminds of my mini- (18+ / 0-)

    crusade here suggesting that Catholics leave a note in the collection basket saying they're not making donations anymore because of the Church's policy of [you choose from the embarrassment of riches available].   IMO, it isn't enough simply to not donate.  Explaining why is the kicker.  

    We must, indeed, all hang together, or assuredly we shall all hang separately. B. Franklin

    by Observerinvancouver on Sun Apr 22, 2012 at 08:31:30 PM PDT

  •  Anti Secular as well (20+ / 0-)

    essentially, the BSA has become co-opted by the Mormon church -- and hold essentially the same stances

    one can not be an atheist and a boy scout

    HOWEVER -- You should remind EVERYONE that the BSA and the Girls Scouts are not at all related -- and the GSA do not have any of the problems that the BSA does ...

    "I want to keep them alive long enough that I can win them to Christ," - Rick Warren, Professional Greed Driven Scumbag

    by josephk on Sun Apr 22, 2012 at 08:37:46 PM PDT

    •  You're absolutely right. The girl scouts recently (19+ / 0-)

      made a terrific decision concerning a transgender girl:

      In October, Archuleta took her daughter to speak with a Denver troop leader about signing up, and took her daughter away crying after the Scout leader referred to the child as "it" and said "Everyone will know he's a boy." Three weeks later, the statewide Girl Scouts body issued a statement saying, "If a child identifies as a girl and the child's family presents her as a girl, Girl Scouts of Colorado welcomes her as a Girl Scout."
      http://motherjones.com/...

      We're not perfect, but they're nuts! -- Barney Frank

      by Tamar on Sun Apr 22, 2012 at 08:52:53 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  This is not true. (5+ / 0-)

      My son is an atheist and just received his Eagle rank. The Boys Scouts ask someone to right a letter attesting to "faith." Any faith. It doesn't even have to be in a higher power, it can just be in the universe. They make a big deal about not favoring Christianity.

      It is true however that after the United Way stopped funding BSA the Mormons stepped in. They have pretty much diluted the rank of Eagle with their merit badge mills and their church funded eagle projects that members carry out.

      Non-LDS troops need all the help they can get and if a kid was asking for money for a blood drive, that money was going to the blood drive and not the BSA. Eagle project funds go to the project, never to the troop.

      AND WHY ARE WE STILL TALKING ABOUT HEALTH CARE IN 2011? -- Susan from 29

      by voracious on Sun Apr 22, 2012 at 10:33:29 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  That is not accurate. (9+ / 0-)

        Atheism is not tolerated in the BSA. It's true, there are a wide variety of "faiths" from which to choose, but the "faith" must be recognized by the BSA. Atheism is not recognized. From the BSA's Declaration of Religious Principle:

        The Boy Scouts of America maintains that no member can grow into the best kind of citizen without recognizing an obligation to God. In the first part of the Scout Oath or Promise the member declares, ‘On my honor I will do my best to do my duty to God and my country and to obey the Scout Law.’ The recognition of God as the ruling and leading power in the universe and the grateful acknowledgment of His favors and blessings are necessary to the best type of citizenship and are wholesome precepts in the education of the growing members.
        Your son's situation is not in line with national policy, I can assure you. It happens...national policy is not always followed. A friend of mine declared his atheism at his Eagle board of review, and he passed...but only after he acknowledged that there might be a God. It was swept under the rug by the board members. It's not that way for everybody.

        Homosexuality is found in over 450 species. Homophobia is found in only one. Which one seems unnatural now?

        by Chrislove on Sun Apr 22, 2012 at 10:41:18 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  I don't care what they say. (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Darmok, Balto

          I had to write a letter on my son's behalf testifying to his "faith." No specific faith has to be described or practiced. You just have to have reverence for something.

          AND WHY ARE WE STILL TALKING ABOUT HEALTH CARE IN 2011? -- Susan from 29

          by voracious on Sun Apr 22, 2012 at 10:51:16 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  The fact remains: Atheists are NOT permitted (5+ / 0-)

            Having reverence for "the universe" is not an option. Your son passed under the radar. That's great. But he's an exception to the rule. BSA's national policy on the matter is very clear.

            Homosexuality is found in over 450 species. Homophobia is found in only one. Which one seems unnatural now?

            by Chrislove on Sun Apr 22, 2012 at 11:00:19 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  Faith is faith (5+ / 0-)

            If your son was an an actual atheist, you would have been obligated to write "My son has no faith in any higher power." A stance they would not have accepted, nullifying what amounts to a (young) lifetime of work. "I have faith in" or "I have reverence for..." automatically disqualifies atheists and secularists. At best, it teaches skeptical kids to lie and obscure their beliefs. At worst, it teaches them to embrace supernatural beliefs they may question or feel uncomfortable with in order to fit in.

        •  It was unenforced when I was in scouts. (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Balto, voracious

          I don't think it's ever really enforced unless you get an asshole for a scout leader.  National doesn't send gestapo to weed out atheists and gays from what I saw.

          •  There are plenty of examples (5+ / 0-)

            of gay and atheist Scouts being ejected. No, national doesn't send secret police to find gays and atheists. That's handled on the troop and/or council level. And, in my experience in my council, the national policy is taken seriously. In the case of my friend I noted above, he had three board members who happened to be nice enough to sweep his atheism under the rug and pass him anyway.

            Homosexuality is found in over 450 species. Homophobia is found in only one. Which one seems unnatural now?

            by Chrislove on Sun Apr 22, 2012 at 11:10:32 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Not my experience either (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              voracious

              In my sons troops, there were very involved same sex couples.

              You are making a huge mistake by assuming the national policies are adhered to by every scout organization.  Many are very tolerant of different family structures, lifestyles, etc.

              To castigate the entire scouting movement is small minded and irrresponsible.

              •  Where did I make that assumption? (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                teachme2night, JamieG from Md

                I am stating the national policy. The national policy is indisputable. I acknowledged that the national policy can be unenforced on the local level. However, I don't see how it's particularly relevant--as long as the national policy remains, gays and atheists are at risk of being ejected, liberal troop or not. That danger won't go away until the national policy is eradicated. As I noted above, there are plenty of examples of gays and atheists being ejected from the BSA. Google it.

                I'm not castigating the entire Scouting movement. As I said below, I'm an Eagle Scout and a former Assistant Scoutmaster, as well as a Vigil Honor member and former Lodge Chief of the Order of the Arrow. I would love nothing more than to be involved in Scouting again, but guess what--I can't, because my troop and council aren't as liberal as yours apparently is.

                The only thing that is "small minded" here is the BSA's policy.

                Homosexuality is found in over 450 species. Homophobia is found in only one. Which one seems unnatural now?

                by Chrislove on Mon Apr 23, 2012 at 08:33:53 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  You can certainly choose to protest... (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  voracious

                  the national policies  in any way you want - personally I think they are abhorrent.

                  However, to advocate boycotting scouting is, to my way of thinking, wrong-headed.  There is so much good done for boys that typically do not have traditional venues for developing leadership and socialization skills - i.e. sports teams - it would be a shame if that were damaged.

                  •  Then how do you suggest (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    JamieG from Md

                    getting the BSA's attention? Money talks. And if you met the current Chief Scout Executive (I have), you'd know how ideologically rigid the national leadership is.

                    Yes, Scouting can be valuable, if you're a heterosexual (or closeted), believing (or dishonest about non-believing) youth. It was valuable for me. But there are other ways to develop leadership and socialization skills. I can't buy into the argument that we have to financially support the BSA because otherwise youth would have no way to develop their leadership skills. Baloney.

                    Homosexuality is found in over 450 species. Homophobia is found in only one. Which one seems unnatural now?

                    by Chrislove on Mon Apr 23, 2012 at 09:07:35 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Well.... we have to agree to disagree... (0+ / 0-)

                      My experience suggests no one in scouting cares if you are heterosexual or a hermaphrodite, a believer or a non-believer.  

                      We have just had very, very different experiences.

                      And frankly outside of sports I think there are very few opportunities for youth to learn leadership and socialization skills.  

                      And I don't think it antithetical to support local scouting while protesting the national policies.

                      But hey, I live in San Francisco...things are different here.

                      •  Hermaphrodite? (1+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        JamieG from Md

                        I'm assuming that was a typo?

                        And your experience sounds good, but it in no way indicates that "no one in Scouting cares." My own experience blows a giant hole in that theory. The national organization cares. Again, Google it. There are plenty of cases that back me up. I will not "agree to disagree," which would give legitimacy to your unsupported view.

                        And again I ask (this is not a rhetorical question), how do you suggest we "protest" the national policies? By writing a letter?

                        Homosexuality is found in over 450 species. Homophobia is found in only one. Which one seems unnatural now?

                        by Chrislove on Mon Apr 23, 2012 at 10:57:47 AM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

          •  That is no way to run an organization. (9+ / 0-)

            It puts gay scouts and leaders at the mercy of random individuals with crosses to bear and power to yield.

            "Hey, it's just policy."


            Not this mind and not this heart, I won't rot • Mumford & Sons

            by jayden on Sun Apr 22, 2012 at 11:11:46 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  It was enforced when I was in Boy Scouts (7+ / 0-)

            and it's more or less the reason I left the organization.

            For those who aren't familiar, you begin as a "Scout" and from there can attain the ranks of Tenderfoot, Scout Second Class, Scout First Class, Star, Life and Eagle. The ranks up through Second Class are pretty easy to attain simply by completing merit badges and such; from First Class on, you have to hold leadership positions and perform service projects, and your accomplishments must undergo a review. For First Class and Star, the reviews are conducted within your troop. For Life and Eagle, they're conducted by the regional council.

            I'd made it as far as Star when I had a conversation with my scoutmaster about the requirements for attaining Life. For the first time ever, my scoutmaster inquired into my religious beliefs. I was 15 and had concluded some years before that I was an agnostic; all along, I'd been unobtrusively dropping "under God" from the Pledge of Allegiance and excusing my use of the phrase "do my duty to God and my country" in the Scout Oath by positing that I had no duty to God and therefore fulfilled the oath by default. My scoutmaster told me that my beliefs weren't going to fly with the council review board. And that was that. Having already run unsuccessfully for senior patrol leader twice and watched kids much younger and less mature than I tapped for Order of the Arrow while I was passed over, I had nowhere else to go within the Boy Scouts, and I bailed.

            "The great lie of democracy, its essential paradox, is that democracy is the first to be sacrificed when its security is at risk. Every state is totalitarian at heart; there are no ends to the cruelty it will go to to protect itself." -- Ian McDonald

            by Geenius at Wrok on Mon Apr 23, 2012 at 04:51:43 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

      •  It's still PR for the BSA, when donations can (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Chrislove, JamieG from Md

        simply be made directly to the charity in question.

        You just said that the BSA requires scouts to attest to some sort of belief in something supernatural.  

        "Substitute a different superstion here" doesn't = true freedom of conscience.

        Nuclear weapons don't kill people, Harry Trumans kill people.

        by JesseCW on Mon Apr 23, 2012 at 07:33:28 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  I'm confused... (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    voracious, Darmok

    Would the money have gone to the BSA, or for the blood drive?

    I'm not trying to start something.  Just was wondering.  I think the organization has the right to have any sort of membership criteria that they want.  I also believe we have the right to deny them funds and to speak against their practices, in hopes of them changing it.  (Will be a very uphill battle.)

    •  It would have gone (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      voracious

      to the Scout toward his project. That's the way I read it, anyway.

      Homosexuality is found in over 450 species. Homophobia is found in only one. Which one seems unnatural now?

      by Chrislove on Sun Apr 22, 2012 at 10:15:35 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  The money would have 100% gone to the blood (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      libnewsie, Darmok, howd

      drive. If you are boycotting an eagle project you are boycotting the non-profit that benefits, not the Boy Scouts of America. Some of the projects benefit the LDS or other churches. In the last 5 years our troop has had eagle projects at the local humane society, several schools, a local church, head start, migrant ed, the city cemetary, a city park, several museums and a local nature center.

      Donating to a blood drive seems like a worthy cause to me, even if the money is being collected by a scout.

      AND WHY ARE WE STILL TALKING ABOUT HEALTH CARE IN 2011? -- Susan from 29

      by voracious on Sun Apr 22, 2012 at 10:36:18 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  And by going through a Scout, one provides one (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Jonathan Hoag, teachme2night

        more bit of PR for the BSA - "Our organzation raised X for charity in the last decade..."

        Nuclear weapons don't kill people, Harry Trumans kill people.

        by JesseCW on Mon Apr 23, 2012 at 07:36:27 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  I suppose that is true. What is also true is (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Darmok

          there are a lot of worthy causes struggling to make the world a better place and BSA service projects help in that area.

          What I find most frustrating is that our schools (at least in my area) are so pathetically underfunded that boys scouts have to step in and do landscaping, build storage sheds, paint, etc to make school improvements. I have seen concrete paths poured and major facility improvements made through these projects. Isn't it pretty sad that these public organizations are so desperate for funds they need volunteers to maintain them?

          AND WHY ARE WE STILL TALKING ABOUT HEALTH CARE IN 2011? -- Susan from 29

          by voracious on Mon Apr 23, 2012 at 09:13:23 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  Or I could just donate (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Chrislove

        to the local blood bank directly.

        Shop Liberally this holiday season at Kos Katalog

        by JamieG from Md on Mon Apr 23, 2012 at 11:43:27 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  What? You mean you (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          JamieG from Md

          can donate to a charity without going through the BSA? Incredible!

          /sarcasm...lol JamieG from MD, some of the comments on this diary are ridiculous.

          Homosexuality is found in over 450 species. Homophobia is found in only one. Which one seems unnatural now?

          by Chrislove on Mon Apr 23, 2012 at 11:49:53 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Thanks, Chris (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Chrislove

            They just don't get it. While their own kids might have had wonderful experiences in Boy Scouts, that right isn't extended to boys who are gay.

            It's like saying that their kids had a great time at a segregated swim club -- learned to swim and great socialization -- but please don't spoil their kids' fun by letting them know that black kids weren't allowed in.

            Shop Liberally this holiday season at Kos Katalog

            by JamieG from Md on Mon Apr 23, 2012 at 12:11:30 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

  •  I'm a second generation Eagle Scout. (8+ / 0-)

    I was just a young boy when I found my father's Eagle Scout medal at my grandparents' house.  I wanted that medal more than anything in the world.  My father told me it was something I would have to earn.  From that point on I looked forward to being a Boy Scout.  One of the greatest days in my life was the day I could finally become a Cub Scout.  When I finally reached the promised land of the Boy Scouts it was one of the greatest days of my life (to that point, anyway).  I was a scout from the time I was eight until I graduated high school, becoming an assistant Scoutmaster the day I turned eighteen.  After that I worked as a counselor at Boy Scout Camps.  I taught many boys to repel and climb rocks and to overcome their fears and believe in themselves.  The Boy Scouts really gave me some of the best times of my life.  That said, I will not encourage my son to be a Boy Scout and I will tell him why.  If he chooses to do so anyway I will not give my time, money, or energy in any way.

    I've already decided that if the other kid's Dads try to shame me into it, I'll just tell them that I'm gay.  It's not actually true, and therefore a violation of the Scout Law, of course, but so then is being unkind and the truth is that there are many men like me who entered the Scouts as prepubescents who didn't really think much about sex all.  I was lucky.  My sexuality was pretty white bread (unless you count a thing for dark features) and so when it blossomed it didn't really cause me anything but the normal catastrophes and traumas associated with adolescence.  There were other boys who were not so lucky.  Some of them grew up (and if I recall, there was no formal ban on homosexuals in my day -- the taboo was still strong enough that there didn't need to be) kept their urges to themselves (DADT) and had wonderful experiences with other adolescents learning about nature and the great outdoors.  Many of those boys loved being a Boy Scout just as much as I did. And now that they are men, the Boy Scouts don't want them.  So far as I am concerned, as long as the Boy Scouts won't have their help, they won't have mine either.

    Ceterum censeo Factionem Republicanam esse delendam.

    by journeyman on Sun Apr 22, 2012 at 09:08:24 PM PDT

    •  I certainly appreciate all the scouts did for you, (8+ / 0-)

      and your feeling about explaining to your son why you would not encourage him, but in the end will let him make his own decision. But I don't understand why you would lie and say you are gay if you aren't. It seems to me just as important to be an out straight supporter of gay people. It's a good reason in and of itself.

      •  I think they'll know it's a lie. (3+ / 0-)

        My wife and I still can't keep our hands off one another (okay, well, maybe she can, but that's not the parent that they're going to be worried about).

        I might not even actually go to the trouble of fibbing but just ask them point-blank if they would accept my help if I were gay.  In the part of the country where I am there aren't so many openly gay people.  In fact, we're considering making gay marriage unconstitutional next month.  It would do some of these people well to meet someone who doesn't think it's something to be ashamed of, even if that person isn't actually gay.

        Either way, they'll know why I'm not on board.  Even though, to be honest, almost nothing would make me happier than going on a camping trip with my boy the way my father used to do with me.  I guess we'll just have to do it outside the Boy Scouts for the time being.

        Ceterum censeo Factionem Republicanam esse delendam.

        by journeyman on Sun Apr 22, 2012 at 09:23:29 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  We have gay parents in our troop. (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Balto

      Each troop and council is different.

      AND WHY ARE WE STILL TALKING ABOUT HEALTH CARE IN 2011? -- Susan from 29

      by voracious on Sun Apr 22, 2012 at 10:37:18 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  If you want them to stay there, you probably (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Chrislove

        should be careful not to reveal on-line which troop it is.

        Because all it would take is a few phone calls, and they wouldn't be there anymore.

        Nuclear weapons don't kill people, Harry Trumans kill people.

        by JesseCW on Mon Apr 23, 2012 at 07:39:25 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  Certain People Known to Certain Of Us Were Members (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Cassandra Waites, JesseCW

    of a Youth Outdoor Camping Bigots' Association at one point.

    Certain of them grew and learned much by it yet will never again admit any connection because of YOCBA religious policies that later came to light.

    We are called to speak for the weak, for the voiceless, for victims of our nation and for those it calls enemy.... --ML King "Beyond Vietnam"

    by Gooserock on Sun Apr 22, 2012 at 09:16:42 PM PDT

  •  Good for you! eom (0+ / 0-)

    Just another faggity fag socialist fuckstick homosinner!

    by Ian S on Sun Apr 22, 2012 at 09:25:22 PM PDT

  •  A little long, but worth it (4+ / 0-)

    Queror Ergo Sum. -- Rene Descartes Shakshuka

    by The Revenge of Shakshuka on Sun Apr 22, 2012 at 09:34:40 PM PDT

  •  Alright. So I'm a gay dude. (10+ / 0-)

    My dad had a boy scout and his father come to his door a few years back. Daddy said "I'm sorry, but I would not contribute to an organization that would not have my son as a member".

    I know Dads are supposed to be proud, but he sure was proud to tell me that.

    Santorum: Man on Dog; Romney: Dog on Car. Ren and Stimpy: Dog on Cat equalitymaine.org

    by commonmass on Sun Apr 22, 2012 at 09:56:32 PM PDT

  •  This is something we don't talk about enough (11+ / 0-)

    Many seem to have an "Oh well, just don't join the Boy Scouts" mentality. But it's a huge issue, and it deserves all the attention--and the BSA deserves all the pressure--it can get. It's not some rinky-dink organization. It's enormous and highly visible...and, in many ways, it is "as American as apple pie." That's why this policy has to be eradicated.

    I'm an Eagle Scout, former Assistant Scoutmaster, Vigil Honor member and former Lodge Chief of the Order of the Arrow. Scouting was a huge part of my life. It still is, in that I have so many memories. When I came out, that entire part of my life was hacked off, and I lost a good deal of my friends. Nobody from Scouting talks to me anymore. It's absurd and cruel. Scouting can be a great experience, but not if there's a discriminatory policy in place.

    Homosexuality is found in over 450 species. Homophobia is found in only one. Which one seems unnatural now?

    by Chrislove on Sun Apr 22, 2012 at 10:05:54 PM PDT

    •  I agree. Pour on the pressure. (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      libnewsie, Darmok

      Because as an organization it can be great for kids and we have gay parents in our troop and it has never been an issue. Ever. We are just thrilled to have more volunteers.

      Troops that are not LDS have a hard time getting parent help. We shouldn't turn anyone away.

      AND WHY ARE WE STILL TALKING ABOUT HEALTH CARE IN 2011? -- Susan from 29

      by voracious on Sun Apr 22, 2012 at 10:38:44 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  I don't mean this to sound like buck passing (5+ / 0-)

      but you guys (LGBT and Straight)  are the ones who have to change this.

      Former Eagle Scouts.  Hell, current Eagle Scouts.

      The rest of us of course can boycott and support, but Eagles and Life Scouts just have a hell of a lot louder voice on the matter.  (I was a Cub Scout and Webelo for a grand total of a year and half, and frankly, Scouting wasn't for me.  Not a big fan of heirachial organizations.)

      It's Veterans and Active Duty whose voices spoke the loudest on DADT (not to devalue the brave contributions of anyone else).  They're the ones the media paid attention to.

      Anything signed by 500 Eagle and Life Scouts is going to get attention.  

      Nuclear weapons don't kill people, Harry Trumans kill people.

      by JesseCW on Mon Apr 23, 2012 at 07:49:48 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Yeah, you came across as a scrooge... (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    voracious, Darmok, Balto

    ...I've been around long enough that I'm sure my ego can absorb an HR or two (or twenty or fifty) for sharing a possibly unpopular thought, so I'll go ahead and suggest that you should focus on sharing your objections with adults of the BSA and not some teenager trying to do something for his Eagle project.  You didn't win anything here, other than to make yourself feel better.  You probably didn't plant any seeds in either teenager's mind other than to watch out for the crazy lady, and you probably didn't win any teenage converts.  But at least you feel better, and that's what matters...

    Boy, it is so time for me to go to bed...  

    "In a nation ruled by swine, all pigs are upward mobile..." - Dr. Hunter S. Thompson

    by Jack K on Sun Apr 22, 2012 at 10:08:53 PM PDT

    •  So she should have donated (5+ / 0-)

      to an organization with offensive "values" antithetical to her own so she doesn't come across as a "scrooge"? Good life lesson. Or should she have not donated and just not said why so she doesn't come across as a "crazy lady"?

      And how do you know that no seed was planted?

      Maybe it is time for bed.

      Homosexuality is found in over 450 species. Homophobia is found in only one. Which one seems unnatural now?

      by Chrislove on Sun Apr 22, 2012 at 10:12:33 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Is there something wrong with just walking (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        GwenM, Balto

        by and not lecturing a kid who is putting himself out in the public wearing a dorky uniform and trying to make a worthy project happen?

        AND WHY ARE WE STILL TALKING ABOUT HEALTH CARE IN 2011? -- Susan from 29

        by voracious on Sun Apr 22, 2012 at 10:47:20 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  In that mindset... (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Balto

        Why do we get upset when conservatives boycott things?  Like down here where I live where quite a few parents took their kids out of Girl Scouts over the whole transgender thing a few months ago.  

        I was never a fan of the Boy Scouts.  I was forced to join once, just like I was forced to join little league soccer.  Hated it.  I'm still not going to boycott them.  I mean, if people are going to boycott for this reason, they'd have to boycott the Red Cross (can't give blood if you've ever had anal sex) and Alcoholics Anonymous (have to believe in a higher power to join the program).  Personally, I'd rather try to change hearts and minds than tear down an organization that besides two policies, (three if you count making kids wake up at 5 in the morning during camp.  Ugh.) does a lot of good.  I have a lot of friends that were Boy Scouts, and they didn't end up gay-hating, fundamentalists either.  

        Bitch at corporate.  Not at the kids.  That's my view anyway.

        •  Based on the diary, no "bitching" occurred. (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          JamieG from Md, JesseCW

          Maybe that's what you envision, but it doesn't sound to me like what actually happened. Seeing that her husband was about to donate, she stopped the donation from happening and explained her reasoning so the kid wouldn't feel like it was personal or meanspirited.

          If you want to financially support the BSA, have at it. But there's something gross about an organization that tells a gay child that he or she is not normal or "morally straight" and must leave. It's a little different than the AA example. A lot different, actually.

          And by the way, "corporate" is not permeable. I was in attendance when Chief Scout Executive Bob Mazucca spoke to my council. Have fun "bitching" to him. He'll tell you how he really feels. Change is not going to come by pleading with the national office.

          Homosexuality is found in over 450 species. Homophobia is found in only one. Which one seems unnatural now?

          by Chrislove on Sun Apr 22, 2012 at 11:07:07 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  *he, not he or she...unless (0+ / 0-)

            I preface that with "Scout or Scouter"

            Homosexuality is found in over 450 species. Homophobia is found in only one. Which one seems unnatural now?

            by Chrislove on Sun Apr 22, 2012 at 11:11:36 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  Well, we'll just disagree. (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            howd

            I don't recall saying she was bitching.  I believe I made the statement "Bitch at corporate.  Not at the kids."  That was advice to anyone reading, not saying what the poster was doing.

            It just rubs me the wrong way.  If I were say, 15 and a Boy Scout, which I was at the time, and the situation had happened to me...  I'd probably have been thinking "Jeez, what an up-tight lady."  Especially after the "No, sorry."  It may not have been said coldly, but that's how it reads, like she was looking down on him for belonging to such a group.  I don't like to make teenagers feel bad.  Hell, his parents may have made him join like mine did!

        •  You do realize that AA doesn't solicit (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Chrislove

          donations?

          "Boycotting AA" doesn't even make sense.

          This is no different that if they were banning African Americans or Jews.  I'm sorry you don't understand that.

          Nuclear weapons don't kill people, Harry Trumans kill people.

          by JesseCW on Mon Apr 23, 2012 at 07:52:34 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  What about the Red Kettles? (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Darmok, Balto

        I don't agree with the Christian fundamentalist nature of the Salvation Army, but I put money in the kettles every year.  Yes, Scouting needs to eradicate their policy against gays, but a young man who becomes an Eagle Scout has developed many leadership qualities.  He's donated literally hundred of hours by to his community over the years.  (I know, I raised 2 Eagle Scouts).

        Let's pressure the organization, but support the young people.

        •  Why? There are plenty of good organizations (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Chrislove, teachme2night

          that actually do help people in need who aren't fundementalist nut-jobs.

          So why put money in their kettles?

          I walk by whistling Pie in the Sky.    Only the SA folks over 60 usually get it, but it lets me practice my whistlin'.

          Bigotry isn't a leadership value, and I don't think you'd say the same thing if the BSA was excluding Jews or Native Americans.

          Nuclear weapons don't kill people, Harry Trumans kill people.

          by JesseCW on Mon Apr 23, 2012 at 07:55:50 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  Late in my response, but I'll do so anyway... (0+ / 0-)

        ...I didn't say she should donate.  You will not find or be able to infer that from any combination of my words above.  What I was referring to was the act of approaching.  It was an unnecessary act that didn't advance the cause and only served to create an uncomfortable moment for a teenager.  I don't see the sense in it, unless one hopes to change the attitude of Eagle Scouts by stalking and confronting them one grocery store card table at a time...

        "In a nation ruled by swine, all pigs are upward mobile..." - Dr. Hunter S. Thompson

        by Jack K on Mon Apr 23, 2012 at 07:59:26 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Um...read the diary. (0+ / 0-)

          Her husband already approached. She simply stopped the donation from happening and explained her reasoning so he wouldn't take it personally. You're inventing a scenario that didn't happen.

          Sometimes never is better than late.

          Homosexuality is found in over 450 species. Homophobia is found in only one. Which one seems unnatural now?

          by Chrislove on Tue Apr 24, 2012 at 09:07:54 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  I agree with this. The kids in our troop do not (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Balto

      care if someone is gay or not, and my sons friends who are not in scouts do not considere homosexuality to be an issue. It could just be where I live or the teenagers I know but I feel today's kids are very intolerant of discrimination based on sexual preference and they are not going to look kindly on our generation which is less accepting.

      I have two kids in scouts who just love it. LOVE IT. Never once in 11 years of scouting has the issue of homosexuality or religion come up. We are an accepting troop who loves the outdoors with a large group of kids who like to hike, start fires, tie knots and cook in dutch ovens.

      We just had a new scout join our troop and he has two mothers. They are AWESOME! Both are super active and very helpful. Their son is wonderful. I agree that there are many frustrating things about BSA as an organization, but lecturing a scout collecting money for a non-profit benefit is lame.

      AND WHY ARE WE STILL TALKING ABOUT HEALTH CARE IN 2011? -- Susan from 29

      by voracious on Sun Apr 22, 2012 at 10:46:23 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Lesbian mom thrown out 2 weeks ago (5+ / 0-)

        And it was all done 5 miles from my house:

        http://www.wtov9.com/...

        On Tuesday night protesters gathered in front of a Bridgeport church to let their local Boy Scout leaders know how they felt about a controversial decision.

        The controversy began just last week when a Tiger Scout leader had her membership revoked due to her sexual orientation.

        Jennifer Tyrrell said she was the den leader for Pack 109's Tiger Scouts for a year before her orientation became an issue.

        ::snip::

        "We do not grant membership to individuals who are opened or avowed homosexuals," said Bob Drury. Drury is the scout executive for the Ohio River Valley.

        Drury said there was no decision to be made, the policy is very clear.

        "The mission of the Boy Scouts of America is to develop character and leadership skills and the youth of today to become leaders of tomorrow," Drury said. "Anything that distracts from that mission distracts from what our program is."

        ::snip::

        Even though they revoked her membership, local leaders said it in no way reflects how well she did with the children or how effective she was as a leader. They said it is solely based on her sexual orientation.

      •  It's great that your troop is accepting (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        jayden, JamieG from Md, JesseCW

        I don't think that's the norm, though, and it's certainly not in line with national policy. Any gay Scouts and/or Scouters in your troop are in danger of being ejected, just like the countless others who have been thrown out like garbage by the BSA. As someone with fond memories of Scouting (until I had to leave under the anti-gay policy), I fully support the diarist's decision. Sure, the money wasn't going directly to support the BSA, but a donation to an Eagle Scout project would have still been in violation of the diarist's principles, because it would have been supporting activities within the organization.

        And, again, it doesn't sound to me like any "lecturing" was going on. Honestly, Scouts need to be made aware of the policies of the organization in which they're participating.

        Homosexuality is found in over 450 species. Homophobia is found in only one. Which one seems unnatural now?

        by Chrislove on Sun Apr 22, 2012 at 10:56:34 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  When I told one Scout leader (4+ / 0-)

    at a supermarket why I was not making a donation to his group that day, he said that many of the local groups do not agree with the national policy of discrimination.

    •  At the troop level, it may not matter (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      JamieG from Md

      but at the council level, it does.

      "The great lie of democracy, its essential paradox, is that democracy is the first to be sacrificed when its security is at risk. Every state is totalitarian at heart; there are no ends to the cruelty it will go to to protect itself." -- Ian McDonald

      by Geenius at Wrok on Mon Apr 23, 2012 at 04:53:50 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Wouldn't it be great if all those local groups (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Catte Nappe, JamieG from Md

      could change national policy?

      I have kept both of my boys out of Boy Scouts. And I'm glad that I did as my youngest ended up declaring his atheism at a young age. As a military family, we don't have the safety of knowing that our local troop will be supportive. We could never know what the atmosphere might be at the next location and living in places like Utah, Nevada, Alabama, and Texas added to that doubt in our minds.

      I would love to see the national organization adopt a policy more like GSUSA.

  •  I would have done the same (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    JesseCW, teachme2night

    Good for you! I also don't give to Salvation Army bell-ringers and I sort of feel weird each time I walk by. But I do state why if they ask for a donation. Anyway, we're doing the right thing. Only way to get through to people these days seems to be through their pocket books.

  •  Last year some boyscouts were selling popcorn (3+ / 0-)

    outside of a store I was exiting, and I explained to one of them that I'd love to buy his popcorn but that I can't support an organization that discriminates on the basis of religion and sexual orientation.

    He said he understood, that he didn't like those policies either, and added that he hoped his Dad would let him drop Scouting when he started High School.

    Nuclear weapons don't kill people, Harry Trumans kill people.

    by JesseCW on Mon Apr 23, 2012 at 07:27:40 AM PDT

  •  Kudos from this military mom! (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    JamieG from Md, teachme2night

    If more people do like you did, maybe the national org. will come to it's senses. It's only through education of the public, and obviously of many scouts themselves, that this national policy will change. Hitting them in the pocket book seems to be one of the better ways to get people to pay attention.

  •  People can come up with whatever excuses they want (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    JamieG from Md

    but this is an organization that has spent tons of donated money defending their "legal" right to discriminate against gay people. I would no more give them money than I would give money to the Mormons or NOM or a white supremacist or antisemitic organization. I donate to the Girl Scouts because they do good work without labeling LGTB people as morally unclean.

    Mark Twain said "to a man with a hammer, everything looks like a nail." So to a man with a gun, what did Trayvon Martin look like? -- Max Minton

    by teachme2night on Mon Apr 23, 2012 at 09:29:56 AM PDT

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