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I've been in several threads today (Wednesday) where there is much lamenting of the idiocy of people who continually vote against their own best interests.  I'm going to expand on a comment I made in one of those kinds of threads a few days ago.

Wrong Argument?

I think we're not having the right discussion about people who vote for Republicans.  There are the obvious core voters, the racists, the bigots, the xenophobes, the wealthy and powerful aka sexistracistbigotedxenophobes.

Then there are the others, that middle ground of people who aren't able to articulate why they vote for Republicans, they just believe "they're good people who have the same interests and concerns as I do".

Some of that is driven by propaganda - welfare queens in Cadillacs, Tort Reform to save your doctor, government is stifling business, the war on Christians.  You know the rap.  Most of those voters (and even some of the less virulent bigots) are not voting against their own interests, they're voting for the party that sells them the prettiest picture of America.

It isn't that Democrats are too wordy, that our platform can't be disseminated in sound bites, that we're socialists or commies or anti-American.  It's that we keep telling people what needs to be done, what needs fixing, and how serious it is.  

The Republicans tell them we're the greatest nation ever, we have the best education system, the best health care system, the best and strongest economy, the best form of government that must be shared with backward nations..... and so on.

The Republican Core Message is always the same: we're special, we're the best.  

The Democrat's core message is: We're fucked, we're failing at (fill in the blank).

Think about what you learned in school (if you're old enough) about American History.  Did you ever hear anyone mention the genocide against the First Nations?  Did you ever hear Native American rather than Indian?  

Did you ever hear anyone mention that slavery was not just the reason for the Civil War, it was a hideous, violent, vicious economic engine that started here well before the Declaration of Independence, that many of our Founding Fathers owned slaves and defended the practice?  

Did any teacher ever tell you about how we allowed millions of non-aryan non-heterosexual human beings, including infants, to be exterminated in German-controlled territories before we bravely entered the war effort (but not until the dirty Japs bombed us!) and ended that horrific regime?  

I never heard a word about the detention of Japanese-American citizens until I was well into my twenties.

I didn't hear about smallpox infested blankets being sold to Native Americans until even later.

I grew up with Gunsmoke and Bonanza, good guy cowboys - not the people who engaged in the wholesale slaughter of the buffalo in order to starve the native population out of what promised to be very rich farm and grazing land.

I was in my 30's before I started finding out about our government toppling legitimate governments in foreign nations, replacing them with, essentially, Nazi-type dictators who could be counted on to "disappear" the educated: journalists, professors, and artists.

I only know these things because I sought them out once I heard rumors.  

I was a hippie, I was livid about Nixon's dirty politics and Hoover's massive spy program.  I lost my "America, the Beautiful" virginity with Kent State and My Lai.

Most of the people here regularly can say similar things, tell similar stories about how we became radicalized.  Most of the population that isn't hanging out on political blogs will not share that background.  They love the Fourth of July, parades, waving flags, concerts of patriotic music.  

They are willing and able to live in the reality they are currently forced to inhabit only if they can believe America is Beautiful, we are the best in every way.  They don't want to hear about the unfairness of working 50 hours a week, being paid for 37, and being terrified that someone will take that glorious job away from them and they'll lose the house, the cars, the credit cards that keep food on the table.  

STFU is their internal shriek.  Don't tell me.  Don't make me think about this.........

........let me believe that my company would never outsource my job, make me train the person who is taking that job to India, and then stiff me on retirement benefits that were entirely mine, no help from the company.
Do not tell me we're all going to die because we love our cars so much.  Do not tell me my kids have mercury and arsenic and heavy metals in their bodies because Congress gutted the PCA.  DO NOT TELL ME ANY MORE SCARY STORIES!  I'm on the ragged edge because I already know my job could disappear tomorrow.  I know I'm likely to end up working for $12 an hour.  I know my neighbor's daughter died from e-coli in spinach.  I know I'll never have employer provided health insurance again.

Those are the voters we need to reach, the fundamentally good, nice people who are simply trying to survive and maybe even thrive in a country that's no longer a haven for their creativity, ambition, and drive.  They don't want to hear what's wrong, they want to hear what's right, and then maybe they can listen to what we (Democrats) can do to make it even better.

They don't need to be called stupid for voting Republican.  They aren't overt racists, sexists or bigots.  They may not know many GLBT people so it's easy to make them fear gayness.  They may not have met many people of color so mostly they know Gansta Rap, illegals taking their jobs, welfare queens, and "Bad Boy, Bad Boy whatcha gonna do?" reality television programming.  They're bombarded with images that frighten them, what's the point of bombarding them with name-calling, especially from a voice dripping with smug superiority?

Here's what made me think about this.  In the '80's I was a card-carrying member of every environmental group out there, and every month I got 15 or more letters telling me that it's fucking hopeless.  

They didn't mean to say that, I'm sure, but they wanted more than the whatever a year I was donating, so each month was a new horror story about whales and polar bears and wolves and habitat shrinkage and loggers devastating virgin forests.  It was all true, and I kept sending more money until one day I gave up.  

I quit everything.  It was hopeless, nothing anyone did was going to change it, so I might as well spend my money on fun stuff for me before the hellish and bitter end.  It took 6 years for me to give up, I'm pretty optimistic.  But when I was done, I was done.   All letters into the trash before opening, no phone calls accepted.

A few years later I got an e-mail from NRDC.  It was cheering about a recent successful negotiation with some developer who was willing to change his plans for (maybe) a huge ranchland and make them more environmentally friendly, less destructive to wildlife and aquifers and humans.  I think there was rainwater catchment and maybe even solar power.  I'm vague on the details, but what grabbed me was this:  success.  

Not pristine, perfect success but negotiation and trade-offs and ultimately a way for everyone to win something.  People want houses.  Blocking them from what they want doesn't make them like us or support us.  Skillful negotiating can, however, make them accept that animals also have a right to live in their habitat, that water is a precious resource that we can protect, that there are other sources of power that aren't polluting and damaging and may even save them money.

Skillful negotiation.  Being willing to trade off some of what's important to me in order to respect some of what's important to you.  Not weakness, not selling out, just an understanding that my utopian vision probably doesn't look like yours does, and you may even have a few good ideas I left out.

I get pissy, and I say rude things when I hear birther shit.  I told one woman she should be angry at the people who make her sound like an idiot.  Not a skillful negotiation, right?  But I've also been on supposedly apolitical blogs, answering propaganda with facts, with links, and with questions.  Do you want your sweet elderly neighbors to have to give up either medicine or food if the doughnut hole returns?  I'm a woman and a mother.  I don't want my daughter to have to buy birth control pills on the black market, or to face some medical inquiry if she spontaneously aborts. I'm a woman, I'm insulted that men talk about abortion so casually and foolishly.  I don't know a single woman who had an abortion because having a child would interfere with her nail appointments or something equally childish.  They had abortions, mostly, because they knew they couldn't give that child anything close to the life it deserved until they finished school, or had a partner they could count on, or could afford really good child care while they worked to pay rent and provide a home.  I'm over 55, I supposedly won't lose my Medicare benefits, but I'm also not selfish enough to think it's okay if you don't have the same good fortune.

I don't argue with hateful people, although sometimes I DO congratulate them on coming out of the racist closet and being honest about why they dislike Obama so much.

In person I do the same - this is what's important to me, this is what President Obama has done to solve some of these awful problems, and that's why I support him.  It's not all fixed yet, but I trust him to fight for me, for you, and for our kids and grandkids.

I make pertinent comments on the War on Women, with humor.  I tell them how hard I laughed at the cartoon of the OB/GYN turning away from a draped woman, saying "I see what the problem is!  Your vagina is full of Republicans."  It makes the point without rage.  It's us girls together.

We have some people out there we can influence, but not if we can't look at them differently.  We can gently teach people what the difference is between the Republican vision of the future and Democratic vision of the future.  

I actually scared a leftie friend of mine a couple of weeks ago by going on a rant about Oligarchy.  She felt as scared and hopeless as I felt about the environment in 1988.  Why should she help me GOTV if I reduce her to that level of hopelessness?

At least think about trying another approach.  What we've done so far hasn't worked, and you know what the definition of insanity is!

Thu Aug 23, 2012 at  4:26 PM PT: Thank you everybody for a really interesting conversation!  I don't usually spend this many hours on the GOS in one day, but I've been enjoying this a lot.  Very thoughtful comments, and some really good ideas about how to sell Progressive ideas to more than the in crowd!

Originally posted to I love OCD on Wed Aug 22, 2012 at 05:59 PM PDT.

Also republished by Community Spotlight.

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    I'm not looking for a love that will lift me up and carry me away. A love that will stroll alongside and make a few amusing comments will suffice.

    by I love OCD on Wed Aug 22, 2012 at 05:59:15 PM PDT

    •  Thanks. Let me know (53+ / 0-)

      how it goes.  I'm continually amazed that I'm having an impact with this new approach.

      I'm not looking for a love that will lift me up and carry me away. A love that will stroll alongside and make a few amusing comments will suffice.

      by I love OCD on Wed Aug 22, 2012 at 07:20:52 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I'm sorry, but I can't jump on that bandwagon. (24+ / 0-)

        You wrote: "Skillful negotiation.  Being willing to trade off some of what's important to me in order to respect some of what's important to you.  Not weakness, not selling out, just an understanding that my utopian vision probably doesn't look like yours does, and you may even have a few good ideas I left out."

        What the HELL do you think President Obama tried to do? And look how not only Republicans, but the people RIGHT HERE ON KOS reacted to that!!!

        What you do not take into account are those people--the number of whom exist we have absolutely no idea of--who simply will not trust a black man to make decisions for white people. It is NOT NOT NOT a racist thing. It is, indeed, a GUT thing.

        I believe you are wasting your breath on more people than you think and that your pie-in-the-sky thinking is right in line with the deluded "bleeding hearts" of 1970s liberals.

        My evidence: Bill Clinton. Why didn't he face the denials this president is facing?  You could reason with the folks you are targeting--back then. You cannot, cannot, cannot reason with these folks (again, I am NOT talking about the racists). You cannot reason with "gut feelings" that even they cannot explain.

        Our only hope, IMO, is to lessen their impact as much as possible and hold on UNTIL THEY ARE ALL DEAD, a time no on can deny is clearly on the horizon, for which I thank God.

        It is ignorance which is hopeless.

        by IdeaTipper on Thu Aug 23, 2012 at 02:44:30 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Those people (20+ / 0-)

          are the ones that I can sometimes convince to vote for Gary Johnson. ;)

          Re-elect Senator Debbie Stabenow (MI). Screw Pete Hoekstra.

          by BitterEnvy on Thu Aug 23, 2012 at 02:59:59 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  I partly agree, partly sharply disagree (39+ / 0-)

          Many people in both parties are there for "gut" reasons that aren't amenable to argument. That's just how people work.

          And many people in both parties, and in between, have a strong gut disposition not to trust black people.

          But if one thinks about the voters and potential voters who make the difference between Democrats getting, say, 48% of the House vote and 54%, often the most relevant gut feeling is that politics pretty much stinks and there is no point in thinking about it any longer than one has to. Which is kind of true, after all.

          It's absolutely possible to reach at least some of those people through prolonged engagement. The marriage equality debate has demonstrated that we don't just have to wait for people to die; people actually can change their minds.

          Election protection: there's an app for that!
          Better Know Your Voting System with the Verifier!

          by HudsonValleyMark on Thu Aug 23, 2012 at 04:26:09 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  It is a nice dream the republicans sell: (16+ / 0-)

            simply sit back and wait for the magic, and one day you too will be filthy rich (unless those dirty libruls get in the way).  It offers a sense of entitlement and a villian to blame your problems on.  And, some people just need a good dream / fantasy to keep them going.

            Mostly I just shrug and comment that:  you get what you vote for....

            and their contempt for the Latin schools was applauded by Theodoric himself, who gratified their prejudices, or his own, by declaring that the child who had trembled at a rod would never dare to look upon a sword.

            by ban48 on Thu Aug 23, 2012 at 06:58:15 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  What occurred to me as I was reading the diary (16+ / 0-)

              is that if they believe America is such an exceptional place, but they're not doing well they can believe it's just because they haven't tried hard enough. By thinking that way, it puts the problem(s) in a way under their own control. But if we are telling them that the problems that are affecting them are systemic, that the Repubs and the Koch brothers and Karl Rove etc. really don't give a shit about them and really do want all the money and control in the world, then that's pretty damn scary. And is totally out of the control of the average person. Much better to buy the Republican version of reality that sounds to them like maybe there's hope after all. Great diary!

              "We don't see things as they are, we see things as we are." Anais Nin

              by SuWho on Thu Aug 23, 2012 at 10:44:39 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  That's what I came to, finally. (7+ / 0-)

                I know a lot about delusion and denial, I'm a recovering alcoholic.  I know it's quite easy to make up a world in your head that bends all the various people/places/things into the pretzels you prefer.

                Recovery is a whole nother thing - that's more about accepting what is and doing your best with what you've got.

                I just finally decided I might be able to do better talking to people if I listened to what they're telling me and then try to tell them how it might be made better with Democrats in charge.  No 100% success rate to brag on, but I've sure had more positive response lately!

                I'm not looking for a love that will lift me up and carry me away. A love that will stroll alongside and make a few amusing comments will suffice.

                by I love OCD on Thu Aug 23, 2012 at 11:09:07 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  You can't lecture people. but you can point out (4+ / 0-)

                  the disconnect between what they say they want and how they vote - like the disconnect between the objective of a business - make money - and the objective of a parent - decent schooling for their kids.

                  Or you could ask why it is always money for the wealthy and free-market-magic for everyone else....

                  and their contempt for the Latin schools was applauded by Theodoric himself, who gratified their prejudices, or his own, by declaring that the child who had trembled at a rod would never dare to look upon a sword.

                  by ban48 on Thu Aug 23, 2012 at 11:24:58 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Exactly, and if they sense (4+ / 0-)

                    that you're listening, not lecturing, it opens things up.

                    I'm not looking for a love that will lift me up and carry me away. A love that will stroll alongside and make a few amusing comments will suffice.

                    by I love OCD on Thu Aug 23, 2012 at 03:08:49 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  I got one guys head to explode when I simply (0+ / 0-)

                      stated:  crack dealers are capitalists too.

                      When he calmed down I asked him what he thought the difference between a crack dealer and wall street was.  He responded that dealing crack was illegal, immoral, and unethical.  Then I went into:  what is moral and ethical about buying a company with borrowed money, borrowing against the company to write yourself a big fat paycheck, putting the company through bankruptcy so you can access the pension funds to pay off the debt, then closing down the business and outsourcing it?

                      He was stuck with the only difference being that what wall street does is legal.

                      (I didn't like the guy which is why I went straight to the gut with this.  Even though he could not defend his position he kindof hated me after this.  People don't like it when you poke holes in their fantasies)

                      and their contempt for the Latin schools was applauded by Theodoric himself, who gratified their prejudices, or his own, by declaring that the child who had trembled at a rod would never dare to look upon a sword.

                      by ban48 on Fri Aug 24, 2012 at 05:03:28 AM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

          •  NPR first and main (10+ / 0-)


            It has been interesting listening to this series on NPR where they interview a lot of people, fairly in depth about their political choices.

            It seems like a LOT of people who are not voting for Obama are voting against him more on the stereotype of helping the people on welfare or being against business than on any actual policy that they have personally experienced.

            One lady this morning said she had voted for Clinton and he "understood" her more than Obama. I took that to mean he was white.

            But seriously I do think while the campaign is doing good, they do need to let poor working class know they are on their side.

            Obama has done it more recently but Clinton basically said "Middle Class" as much as Bushco said "9/11" and I think it does help.

            What I liked about the NPR series is how the interviewer sort of probed the peoples reasons, often bringing up inconsistencies, but without ever being confrontational.

            •  I'm not sure that her saying that Clinton (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:

              "understood her more than Obama" means that she was being a racist.   Clinton has a way of making complex ideas sound simple and of connecting with people on an emotional level.  Obama may or may not be a "good orator," but oration implies talking at people.   Obama, like him or not, just does not give off the impression that he cares deeply about anything. This is of course backed up by what people know of him so far as President. He's perfectly capable of saying he's for Medicare and  trading it away on some "compromise" with the Rethugs.

              Of course, compared to Romney, Obama shines.  The idea of Rmoney winning puts me into a severe depression and instills in me a strong desire to leave the country if it happens.  

              •  I disagree (12+ / 0-)

                My husband who is not that political at all, has said more than once after hearing Obama speak, "How can anyone not know that he is working his ass off for us and really cares?"   So I do think it is about a black guy in the White House more than you think.

                •  Seriously? (0+ / 0-)

                  I find it really easy to believe he doesn't care about people, especially if those people are unemployed, even more if they've been out of work for a very long time.

                  I find it easy to believe that he doesn't care about people who are screwed by the real estate crisis.

                  Speeches are one thing, priorities are another.

                  LG: You know what? You got spunk. MR: Well, Yes... LG: I hate spunk!

                  by dinotrac on Thu Aug 23, 2012 at 02:46:40 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Wow are you ever in the wrong place. (8+ / 0-)

                    You do remember that each time he "caved" to the Republicans somehow unemployment benefits were extended, and Pell Grants funded, and middle class taxes were ameliorated?

                    No, of course not.  It doesn't fit the disaffected meme of the far left.

                    You missed all the ways Obama tried to keep people in their homes, despite a banking system that was legalized by Congress to be very unfriendly to consumers?  

                    Nah.  He's a corporate stooge.

                    I'm hoping you don't talk to people during the election season.  We need reality based conversations.

                    I'm not looking for a love that will lift me up and carry me away. A love that will stroll alongside and make a few amusing comments will suffice.

                    by I love OCD on Thu Aug 23, 2012 at 03:13:06 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  I forget that lots of people here haven't met (2+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      Odysseus, zett

                      me yet -- even though I've been here nearly 5 years.

                      So you'll know, I am neither a Democrat nor a progressive, so I'm likely to view things differently from you.

                      The President did earn points for pushing for extended unemployment benefits, but that's little more than a band-aid -- and a lousy band-aid for anybody who used to make a decent living.

                      What I remember very well is hearing how Democrats would focus like a laser on jobs (the thing unemployed people actually need) just as soon as...(fill in the blank).

                      With regard to helping the unemployed, the President squandered majorities in both Houses of Congress, preferring to focus on other "more important" items.

                      Consequently, he's got the highest "official" unemployment in years, and much higher levels when you add discouraged and under-employed workers into the mix, and higher still when you add the folks who've been out so long that they fall off even the U6 measure.

                      You are free to argue that things would have been worse, but it is not irrational to argue that the President should have spent a little more time with his Presidential histories.  He channeled Reagan during the campaign. Wouldn't have hurt him to channel FDR after the election.

                      LG: You know what? You got spunk. MR: Well, Yes... LG: I hate spunk!

                      by dinotrac on Thu Aug 23, 2012 at 05:00:19 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  You leave out really important (6+ / 0-)

                        factors like Blue Dogs in the Senate and his personal unpopularity with the Dem machine.  Then there are the Republicans who are livid that a black community organizer beat a white war hero in a racist country.  Add in sone shit like Dems being permanently cowed by RW threats.  Then think about the Stimulus package he pushed through, plus the hammers he added to TARP, plus the CFPB he sequestered from Republican funding cuts.  Then the first guy in 80 years to get any health care reform passed while trying to buck up chickenshit Dems.  Then remember that he asked for a vote on ending the Bush Tax cuts before 2010.  Zip from Dems, who also ran away from the Stimulus, the auto bailout, and the ACA.  They lost.

                        Lily Ledbetter.  DADT.  DOMA.  Billions right now from BP while Exxon Valdez claiments are still waiting.  FEMA works.  The EPA is stronger.   Bin Laden is dead.  We're out of Iraq.  Green energy.  Mass transit.  Pell Grants.

                        Too much more for a comment  

                        I'm not looking for a love that will lift me up and carry me away. A love that will stroll alongside and make a few amusing comments will suffice.

                        by I love OCD on Thu Aug 23, 2012 at 06:19:09 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  I leave nothing of the sort out. I reject your (1+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:

                          premise out of hand.

                          The President and Congress were able to pass a giant pork pie of a bill at the very beginning of his administration under the guise of a stimulus, not to mention the rather monumental ACA.

                          They simply didn't care about all those poor unemployed souls whose lives were being ruined while their leaders did other things.

                          My view, of course.  Yours is different.

                          LG: You know what? You got spunk. MR: Well, Yes... LG: I hate spunk!

                          by dinotrac on Thu Aug 23, 2012 at 07:07:08 PM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  Well that seems to be the row you want to hoe. (2+ / 0-)

                            Good luck.

                            BTW, I wasn't referring to Daily Kos being the wrong place for you, it's being in one of my diaries.  I don't have a reputation for listening well to things I think are BS, RW memes or libertarian whining.  

                            I find it remarkable that you are so incurious as to be unaware of what Obama and the Democrats have actually done for the unemployed, including pushing for an economy that will work better for them in the long run.    Obviously it doesn't fit your jaundiced view, so you ignore it.  

                            As I've said, I don't waste a lot of time on people who are implacable.  Have a nice life.

                            I'm not looking for a love that will lift me up and carry me away. A love that will stroll alongside and make a few amusing comments will suffice.

                            by I love OCD on Thu Aug 23, 2012 at 08:00:45 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  So the arrogance bursts through the veneer. (0+ / 0-)
                            I find it remarkable that you are so incurious as to be unaware of what Obama and the Democrats have actually done for the unemployed
                            That has to be it, doesn't it?

                            After all, you must be right and no thinking person could possibly see things differently.

                            LG: You know what? You got spunk. MR: Well, Yes... LG: I hate spunk!

                            by dinotrac on Thu Aug 23, 2012 at 08:07:16 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Which is why we hold elections, is it not? (0+ / 0-)

                            Isn't it grand that so many well-meaning people can hold such a diversity of views?

                            Like evolution, it ain't fast or pretty, but has a way of making good things happen.

                            LG: You know what? You got spunk. MR: Well, Yes... LG: I hate spunk!

                            by dinotrac on Fri Aug 24, 2012 at 07:13:56 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                      •  Hello? (0+ / 0-)

                        Do some homework and get back to us.  You do not know what happened.

                  •  Are you on the same planet? (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    Killer of Sacred Cows

                    Hello???  What have you been doing for the last 3 plus years?  Obama ran on working with the House and Senate.  Most folks aren't political junkies like many of us here.  They wanted to see Obama trying to work with the repubs.  Did he try too long?   For me, yes.  But your comments do not reflect the what actually happened.  

                    What do you call a political party (repubs) that met during a dinner while Obama's inaugural activities were going on to plan how they would DO NOTHING that would make Obama look good even if it hurt the country?

                    I call it TREASON!!!!!!!!!!!!!!    

                    •  Have you paid attention? (0+ / 0-)

                      For all your claims about treasonous Republicans standing in the way, the administration managed to pass two very large pieces of landmark legislation over their objections.

                      The administration simply did not plan for the unemployment problem to be so bad, and then refused to adjust its priorities as the truth became clear.

                      To this administration, agendas and drone strikes matter more than suffering families.  

                      LG: You know what? You got spunk. MR: Well, Yes... LG: I hate spunk!

                      by dinotrac on Fri Aug 24, 2012 at 09:09:09 AM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

              •  and/or, in that lady's case (3+ / 0-)

                it may have been simply a matter of gender identity. It did play into the primary.

                "Show up. Pay attention. Tell the truth. And don't be attached to the results." -- Angeles Arrien

                by Sybil Liberty on Thu Aug 23, 2012 at 10:22:17 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

          •  Actually (3+ / 0-)

            I think their kids changed their minds about gays.  They also did the same with Obama in 2008.  Let's hope they can do the same this time.

        •  When They're Dead? (11+ / 0-)
          UNTIL THEY ARE ALL DEAD, a time no on can deny is clearly on the horizon

          Propaganda and reproduction (and child abuse) makes more hopeless denial Americans every day. When is that time that they're all dead and gone, not replaced by more and worse? Never.

          Not if you don't skillfully negotiate. Skillful negotiations with death cults doesn't depend on reason, it does go for the gut. Obama skillfully negotiated with Republicans enough to get quite a lot done, even after losing the Democratic Congress. His excessive concessions to Republicans and other fascists were less skillful, and the most criticized by non-fascists (and fascists, too).

          If we just hold our breaths, there's going to be far more desperate fascist serfs and far less effort by anyone like Obama to negotiate for what we need. We have to engage, even if we hold our nonses while we speak to these turds.

          Diplomacy is the art of saying "nice doggie" while reaching for a stick. That is what this diary tells us how to do. It's the only way to survive.

          "When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro." - HST

          by DocGonzo on Thu Aug 23, 2012 at 05:02:33 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Fortunately, it turns out not to be the case (5+ / 0-)

            that hopeless denial Republicans are on the increase. They are actually shrinking by 1 or 2% a year. The problem is that the Faithful Remnant (as the Religious Right likes to think of itself) has responded by getting louder and nastier, like a cat fluffing out its fur, arching its back, and opening its jaws as wide as possible in order to look larger and scarier.

            Well, of course there is the other problem of Democrats who sat on their hands in 2010, and mean to do it again. We have a huge majority among those who say they won't vote. So GOTV. Get the word out. Your vote does matter.

            Hey, Mitt! Thanks for ObamneyCare.

            by Mokurai on Thu Aug 23, 2012 at 09:13:25 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Fortunately for all of us, loud votes count the (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Killer of Sacred Cows

              same as quiet ones.

              The real growth at present is people who refuse to take a party affiliation.  Seems there is one thing both parties do pretty well: turn people off.

              LG: You know what? You got spunk. MR: Well, Yes... LG: I hate spunk!

              by dinotrac on Thu Aug 23, 2012 at 02:49:25 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  Are They? (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              I love OCD

              When denial fascists increase, its when reality people aren't doing enough to decrease them. Which is what the post to which I replied was recommending. Wait until they die out is a recipe for them outnumbering us (as they often do).

              Work until they die out is a recipe for success.

              "When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro." - HST

              by DocGonzo on Thu Aug 23, 2012 at 03:27:39 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

        •  agree for PBO, disagree for rank-and-file voters (13+ / 0-)

          President Obama was trying to negotiate for the highest stakes.  The people arrayed against him were villains who have reached the highest level of villainous aspiration by eliminating weaker villains.  Results were, regrettably, predictable.

          The diarist seeks to persuade rank-and-file voters, not professional bagmen.  As you say, some of those people are incorrigible racists and delusional ideologues. They're pretty easy to detect in one minute of conversation.  Like any motivated salesperson, one detects that and gracefully moves on to a more receptive prospect.

          And I love the idea of deflecting certain ideologues to Gary Johnson :).

          A danceyhorse in every car elevator!

          by this just in on Thu Aug 23, 2012 at 06:47:57 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Exactly (5+ / 0-)

            Part of the problem that underlies what is being talked about is the same problem that IdeaTipper falls into - it is US and THEM, and we each have nothing in common and never will. It' is looking at Republican politicians currently in power and saying every Republican voter is exactly like that guy. Which is hideously naive.

            Rank and file voters are not all like those politicians. Some are, some aren't. People are complex and all over the spectrum, and a positive message can reach quite a few of them.

            Sorry, but simply waiting for them all to grow old and die ain't going to work. They do have kids and grandkids who believe like they do. Sure, there's some cultural shift, but what better way to embolden them and their families as isolating them and telling them "I can't wait until you die so that I don't have to listen to you!" Now, that's a message that would be great to include in the Democratic platform. Cripes!

        •  At 60 y/o that thought lacks comfort :-) nt (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          roadbear, I love OCD
        •  And Paul Ryan is the first Gen Xer candidate (18+ / 0-)

          for VP. Do you think it's only old people? Have you see a Ron Paul rally or really looked in the crowd at R and R rallys? It isn't a young vs old issue, it's an ideology that I personally have been dealing with since the days of the Birchers and will continue fighting until I DIE.

          "The scientific nature of the ordinary man is to go on out and do the best you can." John Prine

          by high uintas on Thu Aug 23, 2012 at 07:35:48 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  You are absolutely correct. However, (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          genethefiend, I love OCD

          being active in politics since JFK ran in 1960, I know how much harder it is to deal with the current crop of criminals disguised as the GOP.  I know I picture fields of amber waves of grain with wind turbines rising above them, yet can't get through the likes of Michelle Malkin screaming that the stimulus money was "wasted on wind power".

          This place identified itself as the "reality based community" almost from its inception, and yet I have seen no attempt to show the results of those efforts.  MSNBC is one long series of talking heads sitting around a table night after night playing gotcha politics.  Now, is there some obstacle to a series on our successes?  Money? Then start asking for it, and tell the audience what their dollars are going to be used for.

          "Never let up. Crush bigotry and greed."

          by LouisMartin on Thu Aug 23, 2012 at 08:18:27 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  How is it not racism when someone (4+ / 0-)

          doesn't trust their POTUS based on the fact that he's black?
          Most racism is not the overt type, it consists of unconscious or subconscious impressions and judgments.

          The founding fathers knew of the mutually corrupting influences of Church and state, wisely sending them to opposite corners.

          by emidesu on Thu Aug 23, 2012 at 09:33:33 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  What are you talking about (4+ / 0-)

          Clinton didn't face the "denials"?

          He didn't face eight years and millions of dollars to manufacture a reason to impeach him?

          He didn't face the invention of the stonewall Republican Congress that shut down the government?

          He didn't face rumors of murder from the reality-challenged media?

          He DID make deals with the Republicans that in fact started the ball rolling on the deregulatory economic collapse that Bush and his pals finished with.

          And when he tried doing good things, like getting Bin Laden, the right accused him of a "Wag the Dog" strategy of inventing a non-existent threat to distract from their accusation.

          And how well THAT worked out . . .

          In Washington, whenever anyone does something wrong, everyone else gets punished.

          by Noziglia on Thu Aug 23, 2012 at 11:19:36 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  If you are right then why is Obama president? (3+ / 0-)

          Six years ago I would have bet money that I would not see either a nonwhite or woman president in my lifetime (I was 47 then).  Any voters who felt in their gut that Obama was not presidential material, did not vote for him in 2008.  Since Obama won, I had to conclude that such voters were a minority.

          There is every reason to believe that if every person who voted for Obama in 2008 does so again, Obama will cruise to victory. That it is not going to be easy in 2012 must reflect people who voted for him in 2008 but will not do so in 2012.  None of the factors you describe above can explain this.

      •  Nothing succeeds like success. (18+ / 0-)

        Like you, I felt pretty much the same about the doom and gloom environmental messages - showing progress helps.  There were some big discussions when the Bald Eagle and Peregrine Falcon were taken off the Endangered Species List.  Some felt that they hadn't recovered sufficiently and there were still big threats out there like habitat loss and climate change.  Others said they've come back strongly, are moving into new areas and populations are growing without our intervention, but more importantly:  If we never move any animal off the list, then it sends a message that the list isn't working.  If no species ever recovers, then why are we going through all of this effort and making so many restrictions and rules, if it's not actually going to help?  

        Another message to couple with the GOP's sales pitch - Sure the US is a great nation in so many ways, but it can still be better.  If you think your house is the nicest one on the block, does that mean that you stop working on improving it?  If you think your garden is great, does that mean you should stop planting new things?  If your home workshop is wonderful, does that mean you shouldn't get any new tools?  Dems' message should be:

                "We're trying to make a good thing even better."
        •  Know what makes an environmentalists' day? (8+ / 0-)

          "Species that everyone thought was extinct turns out to be hanging on after all."

          Witness: The New Zealand Stormy Petrel. I was smiling for a day after I heard about that one.

          A businessman once asked a villager, "Why will you not let me buy this forest from you?" The villager answered, "Why not ask the birds? It is their home you will burn."

          by EcoMorph on Thu Aug 23, 2012 at 07:50:29 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  "We're trying to make a good thing even better." (7+ / 0-)

          Money quote.... best comment!

          Focus on the love! The Republicans can keep the disco.

          by Mr Horrible on Thu Aug 23, 2012 at 08:02:29 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  I've been leaning towards the GOP doesn't really (0+ / 0-)

          believe we're a great nation.  They seem determined to make us a colony of China, British Petroleum, and Royal Dutch Shell.

          It's their platform:

          Frack the crap out of any formation that might squeeze up some oil they can sell on the world market.  Who cares what it does to people's property as they drill sideways and pump millions an millions of chemcial laden water into the ground?

          Grab the resources, make a bundle, and move on, leaving an empty husk.

          LG: You know what? You got spunk. MR: Well, Yes... LG: I hate spunk!

          by dinotrac on Thu Aug 23, 2012 at 02:55:20 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Of course they don't believe. (0+ / 0-)

            They just sell it.  They believe we're done, that the future is in Asia and we're Britain on the downslope.

            Obama doesn't believe that.  That alone is enough to make me an ardent supporter.

            They know that multinationals don't need America for anything, except maybe call centers when India and China are in the ascendent.

            I'm not looking for a love that will lift me up and carry me away. A love that will stroll alongside and make a few amusing comments will suffice.

            by I love OCD on Thu Aug 23, 2012 at 03:17:39 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

      •  Voting against the safety nets you use. (5+ / 0-)

        This NYT article has really opened my eyes lately to why people increasingly resent the government for providing the services and safety nets they rely on:

    •  Be careful. You won't get far assuming people (14+ / 0-)

      really are 'nice', because what you will find is people like to be nice when it is free and mean when it costs money (aka social liberal and fiscal conservative).  I find it works better when I attack the RW talking points head-on.  Something more like:

      "It's not about being for business or against business, but understanding business.  And, business is about making money.  If a business thought it could make alot of money delivering clean water, don't you think it would?  If a business thought it could make alot of money peeing in the water, don't you think it would?  If a business thought it could make alot of money running a good school, do you think it would?  If a business thought it could make alot of money running a crappy school, don't you think it would?"

      Sidestep their belief in free markets and ask pointed questions, and you'll get further.

      and their contempt for the Latin schools was applauded by Theodoric himself, who gratified their prejudices, or his own, by declaring that the child who had trembled at a rod would never dare to look upon a sword.

      by ban48 on Thu Aug 23, 2012 at 08:27:08 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  I think you make some very good (42+ / 0-)

    points here.  I do, however, think that  it's going to be awfully difficult to overcome the fear mongering that the republican party piles on to us.  I mean right now a good chunk of the population is pretty convinced that Obama is taking away guns and creating a welfare state.

    Corporations are driven by the bottom line, not by concerns for health, safety or the environment. This is why we need government regulations.

    by the dogs sockpuppet on Wed Aug 22, 2012 at 06:20:36 PM PDT

  •  You Can Only Reach Voters With a Positive Message (16+ / 0-)

    when you intend to bring real positive change to their lives.

    There's a reason Democrats have not been making positive promises on civil rights, wealth injustice and so many other issues.

    More on that beginning November 7th. For now, the Democrats are our only hope against Republicans.

    We are called to speak for the weak, for the voiceless, for victims of our nation and for those it calls enemy.... --ML King "Beyond Vietnam"

    by Gooserock on Wed Aug 22, 2012 at 06:28:11 PM PDT

  •  I actually like the (17+ / 0-)

    "you should be angry at the people who make you sound like an idiot" response!

    "Find out how much God has given you and from it take what you need; the remainder is needed by others." St. Augustine

    by wsbuffalo on Wed Aug 22, 2012 at 07:18:23 PM PDT

  •  I get what you are saying... (4+ / 0-)

    but on the intertoobz people generally say get nasty either amongst people they agree with, or to try to persuade OTHER people, not the person they are arguing with (who generally can't be persuaded anyway).  Ridiculing absurdity can be effective when that is what you are going for.

    Suggested viewing for you.

    •  I disagree (5+ / 0-)

      After the yelling, the nasty retorts and the sarcasm comes the silence. That is when you know you have reached them.That is when they start questioning and come back later and ask you for information. I have turned them, it can be done.

      And I actually disagree with the diarist. Telling them everything is rosy and agreeing with them doesn't work. You have to mess with their world have to get them to wake up, its hard but they can't continue to ignore you when they finally understand that what you say is true.

      If peace is to prevail we all have to become foes of violence.

      by spacejam on Thu Aug 23, 2012 at 05:06:59 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Never that everything is rosy - (7+ / 0-)

        that's the point.  it's not rosy and they know it, they're scared to death about the future.  What they need from us is "This can work better, and here's how".  

        bama does it on the stump, all the time.  He doesn't blow sunshine up their skirts, but he tells them that they're strong people, good people, people who care about their kids future, all kids futures.  He outlines a problem or an issue, follows with a common sense solution, and then some we can do it together because we're Americans and Americans never recoil from a challenge.

        It's not Bush - just go shopping - it's Obama saying dig in and make this country fit for a 21st Century role.  We need to build things, we need to invent things.  He's pointing out what made us successful in the first place, and telling people that's not dead and gone.

        Contrast with the Republican message - there's nothing to worry about, just vote for us and we'll fix it.

        I'm not looking for a love that will lift me up and carry me away. A love that will stroll alongside and make a few amusing comments will suffice.

        by I love OCD on Thu Aug 23, 2012 at 05:51:31 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  I mostly disagree (5+ / 0-)

        ... with this:

        After the yelling, the nasty retorts and the sarcasm comes the silence. That is when you know you have reached them.That is when they start questioning and come back later and ask you for information. I have turned them, it can be done.
        As a counselor of decades' experience -- and in the field of domestic violence, where you meet some of the most in-denial people around -- yelling, nasty retorts and sarcasm, do not lead to people thinking about what you've said.  For the most part, it does not lead to questioning themselves.

        Usually, it just justifies in their mind that people who disagree with them are mean, abusive jerks who don't deserve any consideration at all.

        They way to get people to open their minds and question is to make them like you personally, often even against their own wishes.  

        You do that by expressing understanding of where they are coming from, and complimenting them for the things that you can honestly compliment them on.  It's really, really hard to dislike and tune out someone who is understanding you and complimenting you.

        Then, when they are liking you, you just hit them consistently, over time, with neutral facts and logical questions that destroy their irrational beliefs and positions -- all from an attitude of expecting better of them;  of believing they are smarter and better than they are displaying.  It's really, really hard to dislike and tune out someone who really believes in you.

        •  As an afterthought ... (3+ / 0-)
          After the yelling, the nasty retorts and the sarcasm comes the silence. That is when you know you have reached them.That is when they start questioning and come back later and ask you for information. I have turned them, it can be done.
          It occurs to me I may have misunderstood you on this.

          If you mean that it is the other folks who are doing the yelling, nasty retorts and sarcasm, but then going on to think ...

          I think you may well be right.  That can indeed be how it goes if you approach them the way I describe above.

    •  Troll-Slaying (3+ / 0-)

      That internet activity is definitely not about convincing the troll, but in destroying the troll argument so brutally the trolls tremble and quake at the sight of your username. The audience is the lurker community.

  •  Republicans sell negativity all the time (22+ / 0-)

    It's not "America is so great!" and Democrats are the sticks in the mud, the Republican mantra is "You're better than them!" or "You could be so great if it weren't for all of these useless people tying you down!"  Republicans are great at taking people and giving them an enemy that threatens to destroy their mole hill.  

    Santorum/Bachmann 2012

    by sujigu on Wed Aug 22, 2012 at 08:17:03 PM PDT

    •  They sell negativity about Democrats, (35+ / 0-)

      they sell themselves as patriots, fiscal conservatives, morally superior, and "just like you".  It's catches people's attention despite the fact they're full of shit and that's on record.

      That's what tells me it's about selling a fantasy that's more bearable than the reality created by lousy Republican leadership.

      Without a complicit media they couldn't have done it as well, but they have a consistent message - we're better, America is better, and the Democrats hate America because they hate our freedomz, or the meme of the week.

      Democrats respond with ideas, with arguments, with logic.

      It's emotion that rules, not logic.  We need to learn to push those emotional buttons better.  

      I'm not looking for a love that will lift me up and carry me away. A love that will stroll alongside and make a few amusing comments will suffice.

      by I love OCD on Wed Aug 22, 2012 at 09:29:17 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I think you are on to something here (23+ / 0-)

        That line of thought that Republicans sell a fantasy absolutely explains Reagan's morning in america sell that was so appealing after put on a sweater Carter. It is of course total make believe. I know someone who keeps going back to Disneyworld - vacation after vacation and it was hard to get why until I read your thesis. It's a more beautiful world for them.

        My ex in-laws liked cruises because the bathrooms were always reliable (not sure why they wanted to see the world with its unreliable toilets - should stay home).

        I have heard people insist that america has the highest standard of living - the best healthcare in the world (that is why people come here for specialized treatment) the best schools (ditto). I always wonder what fantasy land they live in and now I am getting it. They NEED to believe this about america because otherwise - what - it is really hopeless (what progressives are on about all the time).

        It is said that Republicans are pessimistic about the nature of man (that people will take too much) and Democrats are optimistic (we need to provide a good life for people) but you are saying that Republicans need to believe in their utopian world and Democrats are willing to see the problems.  That is a complicated quandary.

        Everybody knows it already

        by redstella on Thu Aug 23, 2012 at 04:13:18 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  We do have some of the best health care and (2+ / 0-)

          some of the best schools. We just won't let a lot of us in. Something about fearing that equality means lowering the standards at the top in order to bring them up at the bottom. Completely contrary to history. I know of no society that didn't have elite health care and education for the privileged, but there are several that have eliminated dire poverty and cut way back on the worst other forms of inequality.

          Hey, Mitt! Thanks for ObamneyCare.

          by Mokurai on Thu Aug 23, 2012 at 09:32:22 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  WRT Health care, I would say we've got a lot (2+ / 0-)

            of really go pieces, but a lousy system.  Kind of like an orchestra where each musician chooses his/her own key and tempo.

            LG: You know what? You got spunk. MR: Well, Yes... LG: I hate spunk!

            by dinotrac on Thu Aug 23, 2012 at 03:03:16 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Good points, but at least we have (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Killer of Sacred Cows, dinotrac

              the foundation laid for a systemic upgrade.

              I wasn't expecting miraculous health care reform, I just wanted SOMETHING to finally pass so we could improve it over time, as with Medicare, SS, and Civil Rights/human rights.  

              If Obama is successful with Medicaid it could be more significant than Medicare and help more people than SS.

              If we had a decent economic structure it wouldn't be so important, but until we stop the trickle-downers we need a much stronger safety net.

              I'm not looking for a love that will lift me up and carry me away. A love that will stroll alongside and make a few amusing comments will suffice.

              by I love OCD on Thu Aug 23, 2012 at 04:44:01 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

        •  Everyone needs to believe. (2+ / 0-)

          If you're naturally optimistic, you can look at reality and see a way to make it better. If you're pessimistic, reality is too much for you. It all makes perfect sense.

          "The Democrats are the lesser evil and that has to count for something. Good and evil aren't binary states. All of us are both good and evil. Being less evil is the trajectory of morality." --SC

          by tb92 on Thu Aug 23, 2012 at 12:12:48 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  Logic works (4+ / 0-)

        It just doesn't work on the closed mind, the low IQ, the bigot, and the wealthy.

        Well, it resonates just fine on the wealthy, it's just not in their best interests to take the logic to the voting booth.

        We've been spelling it wrong all these years. It's actually: PRO-GOP-ANDA

        by Patriot4peace on Thu Aug 23, 2012 at 04:35:23 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Too True, which is why (8+ / 0-)

          I think the personal and the emotional are our best bets for reaching those who are reachable.

          You'd be amazed at the impact of saying "My Medicare will probably not change (unless they repeal Obamacare), but yours will never be as good as mine is.  I'm not selfish enough to think that's OK."

          Or whatever you think will push those buttons.  I'm a woman, I talk to women about income inequality, and how few women we have in the Senate, the House, Governorships.  I tell women about the hormone driven irrationality of Wall Street, and we laugh about being deprecated because of our hormones.  Then we decide "Fuck em if they can't take a joke, it's time to fight."

          Slightly dirty manipulation?  Maybe.  I also talk a lot about how those sluts who want abortions might have gotten pregnant, because there's never any call to make birth control for men mandatory at puberty, is there?  Are these all Virgin Births?  Do we bathe in sperm infested waters?  

          Is the rapist who fathers a child going to pay child support?  Will the Republicans in Congress pass a bill that fully supports all children born from rape and incest for 18 years plus free college?  Will that unwilling mother be provided with therapy for the rest of her life?  Will she have a nice place to live, good childcare, excellent health care for her and the child?  Will she be supported financially if she chooses to stay home to raise that child?

          The Republicans know that they evoke a powerful image when they prate on about the precious baby.  You know that image, you see it.  I bring other images to mind - rat-infested cheap housing, child care centers that house abusive workers, which is all that's available for unmarried women with low incomes.  Latchkey kids who come home to an empty apartment.

          Emotion works.

          I'm not looking for a love that will lift me up and carry me away. A love that will stroll alongside and make a few amusing comments will suffice.

          by I love OCD on Thu Aug 23, 2012 at 06:59:45 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  Upton Sinclair (8+ / 0-)
          It is very difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it.

          Hey, Mitt! Thanks for ObamneyCare.

          by Mokurai on Thu Aug 23, 2012 at 09:33:09 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  And I don't think we talk enough about (2+ / 0-)

            the part Big Business has played in making this a fear-ridden nation.

            I have friends who work corporate jobs that are abusive.  They don't get paid for the overtime everyone knows they'd damn well better put in.  They pay more for health insurance every year, and listen to the senior executives explain that the business climate is such that they can't afford raises once again! (and go home to news that the business climate is so good profits are at an all-time high.)

            And if you rock that boat, who pays the mortgage?  You're expendable, easily replaced, and you live in terror that you'll lose what you have, despite the lousiness of what you have.

            They don't see a sensible alternative to being a corporate lackey.  Maybe Democrats can build an economy that doesn't need corporations.  Let's talk about that.

            I'm not looking for a love that will lift me up and carry me away. A love that will stroll alongside and make a few amusing comments will suffice.

            by I love OCD on Thu Aug 23, 2012 at 11:23:43 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

        •  Ugh, it doesn't work for the (2+ / 0-)

          high(ish) IQ, middle class, open minded people either -- In other words, some of my friends.  

          I can't even get far enough to make a logical, rational argument. The first thing they claim is how HORRIBLE The economy is and anything I say to counter that is just Charlie Brown Teacher, "wa, wa, wa, wa" .  They don't hear ANYTHING else!

          It infuriates me to no end. I think I might be sick all the way up to Election Day (hopefully not after ; )  ).

          I think I need new friends : (

          •  Well I'd be happy to have some new neighbors. (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Killer of Sacred Cows

            My friends are pretty much on the same page because I'm unbearable if you're not!  It does tend to be a good way to glean the wheat from the chaff.

            I'm not looking for a love that will lift me up and carry me away. A love that will stroll alongside and make a few amusing comments will suffice.

            by I love OCD on Thu Aug 23, 2012 at 08:08:16 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

    •  That's the snake oil that Ayn Rand was selling (3+ / 0-)

      and Paul Ryan and Alan Greenspan bought wholesale. That precise bitter resentment against all of her cardboard-cutout villains that so empowers racists, bigots, and plutocrats. When in real life, she despised Left and Right about equally. Pro-choice, anti-Reagan, for example. Well, she despised everybody who wasn't exactly as smart as she was, which is to say, everybody.

      Hey, Mitt! Thanks for ObamneyCare.

      by Mokurai on Thu Aug 23, 2012 at 09:27:25 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Roosevelt argued from a 'practical' viewpoint. (14+ / 0-)

    Repubs are always giving off self-destructive brain farts or are
    just hiding their program. Obama's record is much better than many people realize. We need to explain that and how we are moving the country forward. The repubs will end up just sputtering.

    •  Exactly. Obama is closer to FDR than (25+ / 0-)

      any other recent President.  He gets the big picture - it's a diverse and contentious nation with more opinions than people, and you can't get what you want accomplished without allowing room for those who disagree with you.  You compromise because it's a Democracy, not a fiefdom.

      He's also done a brilliant job of setting the Republicans up for the sucker punch of this election.  If it wasn't working so well, we wouldn't be seeing so much blatant insanity from the righties.  They are more afraid of losing power than they've ever been, they have no idea how to counterpunch Obama because they believe their own propaganda about his weakness, and all of a sudden all they have left is loons talking about the United Nations taking over America.

      Not a whole lot of people are really buying that shit, and it makes the whole party lose credibility, one little bit at a time.

      I'm not looking for a love that will lift me up and carry me away. A love that will stroll alongside and make a few amusing comments will suffice.

      by I love OCD on Wed Aug 22, 2012 at 09:34:26 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Presidential race is predicted to be close. (4+ / 0-)

         Maybe the press makes it appear closer then it is, but the bottom line is, there seems to be a lot of people who are buying some of their fecal matter!

        "A lie makes it halfway around the world before the truth gets it shoes on." Mark Twain

        by pipercity1 on Thu Aug 23, 2012 at 04:33:12 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  I wouldn't be too surprised about that.... (8+ / 0-)

          ....back in the year my grandfather was born, you wouldn't have been voting for Obama. You'd have been buying him at auction.

          (Yeah, we have pretty long generations in my family, but my grandfather was really born in 1864.)

          It isn't that long a time, historically, to stop thinking of a certain class of people as things and start thinking of them as people.

          "They smash your face in, and say you were always ugly." (Solzhenitsyn)

          by sagesource on Thu Aug 23, 2012 at 04:49:49 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  This comment wasn't about Obama's race! (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            I love OCD

            It was about the people who believe the blatant lies they tell! I understand that race is a factor for many but not for me. Bill Clinton experienced many of the same problems. They spent 10's of millions to investigate his whitewater investment..and found nothing. But that didn't stop the investigation..that led to Monica Lewinsky..and trial for impeachment.

            "A lie makes it halfway around the world before the truth gets it shoes on." Mark Twain

            by pipercity1 on Thu Aug 23, 2012 at 04:59:47 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Yeah, and Obama watched all (8+ / 0-)

              that too.  He knows exactly what the Republicans do, how they play the game.  And I'm amazed that he's gotten out in front in this election, defining Romney and now clarifying Ryan.

              He's succeeding better than it appears, folks.  We wouldn't have loons all over the media talking about the United Nations taking over the country and "legitimate rape" if these people were confident they can pull off the magic trick again.

              It's a brilliant politician we have in the Oval Office, and he's playing for keeps.  

              I'm not looking for a love that will lift me up and carry me away. A love that will stroll alongside and make a few amusing comments will suffice.

              by I love OCD on Thu Aug 23, 2012 at 05:57:44 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

  •  From my observations, even those that (4+ / 0-)

    aren't the batshit brained lunatics who vote exclusively repug somehow feel that they're better than everyone else...... so hence the repug vote.

    Now how to deal with any and all of the individual reasons as to why each is insecure within themselves to have to feel that there has to be this in order for them to feel better than everyone else...... hey..... I took quite a number of psychology classes..... but too much of this is above my level of knowledge.

    •  They've been brainwashed to feel (3+ / 0-)

      superior to welfare queens and lazy black folks and illegals who steal our jobs.

      They know they're not superior to the guy down the block with two new cars in the driveway.

      They know they're not keeping up anymore, they're not even holding the line.  Get them to admit that, then tell them why a new economy is their only hope, and the Democrats are the only ones who want a new economy because the Republicans are making out like bandits in the old one.

      That wouldn't have meant shit in 2008 but it resonates now, thanks to President Obama and his manipulation of Republicans in Congress.

      I'm not looking for a love that will lift me up and carry me away. A love that will stroll alongside and make a few amusing comments will suffice.

      by I love OCD on Thu Aug 23, 2012 at 07:05:19 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  yeah. The name calling really needs to stop (12+ / 0-)

    oh sure they call us commies and socialists.. and to be fair some of us are. But on many forums i see some of the worst usage of name calling that reduces the effectiveness of these words signficantly.

    A. Racist
    B. Bigot
    C. Homophobe
    D. Misogynist.
    E. Sexist.

    These words have the same behavior as money. Like how if money is just printed with no backing it reduces the value of every dollar that came before it so does the use of these words. Over/mis-use of these words highly diminishes their value.

    •  But those terms that you listed are worn like a (4+ / 0-)

      badge of honor by a significant percentage of the Republican base.  They are proud to represent those values and will never be persuadable.

      And it feels like I'm livin'in the wasteland of the free ~ Iris DeMent, 1996

      by MrJersey on Thu Aug 23, 2012 at 10:04:29 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  those words are never worn as a badge of honor (0+ / 0-)

        they are so over used though that people just laugh it off. I remember a time when those words were shocking and a serious career ending offense. Now people roll their eyes when they hear that someone has been accused of being those things.

        •  The problem isn't the names, (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Killer of Sacred Cows

          it's the environment that allows what was once unacceptable to become mainstream.

          I think we can dump that squarely on conservatives.

          I'm not looking for a love that will lift me up and carry me away. A love that will stroll alongside and make a few amusing comments will suffice.

          by I love OCD on Thu Aug 23, 2012 at 08:14:55 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  It's only empty name calling if (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Killer of Sacred Cows

      it's untrue.  Akin is a sexist pig and a misogynist and probably seriously homophobic.

      I could possibly look up other terms to describe his fundamental mindset but why bother?  Men who think of women the way he thinks of women don't like women, probably fear them, and definitely need to control them.  Is saying that in simple terms a bad thing?  I don't think so.  

      If calling the guy carrying the sign with Obama in a loincloth with a bone through his nose a racist is somehow unkind, bring on the hot sauce.  He's a racist and proud of it.  

      I'm not looking for a love that will lift me up and carry me away. A love that will stroll alongside and make a few amusing comments will suffice.

      by I love OCD on Thu Aug 23, 2012 at 08:13:42 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Optimism and hope are powerful motivators. (9+ / 0-)

    People respond to optimism and success.  It's so powerful that sometimes it can be used to whitewash some pretty horrific stuff.

    Our President knew how to hit those tones, and strike those chords within people.  It's probably why he won by the margin he did.

  •  painting a brighter picture (13+ / 0-)

    of the future is a worthy goal even for those independents who are just not that enthused to bother to vote. Give people something to vote for. We all need to see that painting. It looks like a 21st century; clean, bright, healthy, peaceful and sustainable. Glistening cities with rooftop gardens, suburban houses made energy efficient all across the country, fields of carbon sequestration crops, high speed trains and modern commuter systems.

    I really believe that government has to be the vehicle that gets us there. People of all political stripes need to be convinced that it is attainable.

  •  You can catch more flies with honey than vinegar. (5+ / 0-)

    And remember The Man From Hope.

    Early to rise and early to bed Makes a man healthy, wealthy, and dead. --Not Benjamin Franklin

    by Boundegar on Thu Aug 23, 2012 at 04:08:50 AM PDT

  •  Advertisers know (9+ / 0-)

    that associating a product with a pretty picture works.

    That's why "yes we can" was such a great slogan.

  •  Lately I've taken to calling myself (16+ / 0-)

    a conservative progressive...and it seems to have intrigued some folks.

    What is a conservative progressive?

    We want jet packs, bullet trains, clean energy and we don't want to pay through the nose for them!!

    In any case, it starts conversations and I think it is also positive. Since I just started saying this...we'll see.

  •  "Nazi-type dictators who could be counted on to (0+ / 0-)

    "disappear" the educated: journalists, professors, and artists."


    •  Pinochet? The Shah of Iran? (4+ / 0-)

      Going Godwin didn't help the diarist make her case.

      look for my eSci diary series Thursday evening.

      by FishOutofWater on Thu Aug 23, 2012 at 05:00:05 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I'd forgotten both of them. My question was much (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Killer of Sacred Cows

        more "explain the part about us wanting them to 'disappear' the educated."

        •  It was the Red Menace. (7+ / 0-)

          We toppled governments led by leftists and helped hard Right factions take their place.  The results were not attractive.  

          You generally have to muffle those who will cry loudest against that sort of thing, and those are the elites, the intelligentsia.

          Hitler, Stalin, all the really successful tyrants have removed the most educated people as they take over.  Why do you think Republicans are so determined to turn us into a nation of morons?  If 90% of the population is well-educated, you can't kill all of them.  If it's only 20% it can be done.

          I'm not looking for a love that will lift me up and carry me away. A love that will stroll alongside and make a few amusing comments will suffice.

          by I love OCD on Thu Aug 23, 2012 at 07:10:36 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Got it. I'd noticed the "stupiding" part long ago. (3+ / 0-)

            I'm sure you've read "What's the Matter with Kansas?" and the drooling, liberal-baiting knuckle-draggers who comment on the Washpost make me long for the extinction of all life on earth. No matter what some left-leaning columnist may say--lately, it's about Paul Ryan--SOMEONE will reply that it's all the personal fault of OBUMMER and LIBS lie with every breath they take, etc. etc. SOme may be trolls, but some surely actually believe that OBOZO is the Worst. President. Ever. (funny how they almost never mention their manly man hero W now).

            A lot of it makes me want to throw something, but how I wish those fecocephalites could be forced to live in the fascist paradise they so earnestly desire. A lot of them would cut off their own arms if they thought doing so would hurt a LIB somewhere. If only there were incontrovertible proof that they're being screwed by their oh so righteous leaders. There is no such thing, of course. They will NEVER admit being wrong.

            •  But don't they mostly remind you (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Marko the Werelynx

              of the third grade bullies on the playground?  They do me - they're not even the biggest kids on the block, you know they'd run fast if one of the bigger kids walked over, but they love acting tough and scaring people half their size.

              Not one of those people, mostly male, has the cojones to say those things in public without the mask of anonymity.  Not one of them would dare to jeopardize his job or his standing in the community.  Not one of them would say it if there was a chance in hell they might get smacked around for doing it.  They're cowards who feel manly when they can pose, preen and posture safely, where no one can fight back and there's no retribution.

              I'm not looking for a love that will lift me up and carry me away. A love that will stroll alongside and make a few amusing comments will suffice.

              by I love OCD on Thu Aug 23, 2012 at 08:20:55 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  I *would* like to see what such folks look like. (0+ / 0-)

                I have mental pictures of them: grinning with smug malice, not unlike some kid who (for no reason I remember) spat on me in grade school. The sort of open-mouthed, aren't-I-clever rictus one wants to rearrange with a brick. George Robarchak, I haven't forgotten you.

                Problem is, I disagree that these guys (and gals) are harmful only to the blood pressure of readers. As I said: perhaps a fair number of them are trolls (PAID trolls?) but to me, they're a sample of what's really out there: Rush-addled peabrains who truly believe Obama has aspirations of kingship and is sending his goons to take their GUNS and TAXES. They had no such qualms about the Son of Poppy's full frontal assault on our liberties, of course.

    •  That's a reference to Argentina specifically. (7+ / 0-)

      Oddly, many of the educated who disappeared in the '70's/'80's were Jewish intellectuals.  It's not Godwin when it's a fact.

      Google the Madres of the Plaza del Mayo.  They're dying now, the numbers are smaller, but the mothers and grandmothers of the disappeared have never stopped asking what happened.

      We're wildly unpopular in the Middle East, Asia, and South and Central America because of our CIA driven anti-communist paranoia.

      Not to mention Afghanistan, where we empowered, trained and armed Al Queda and the Taliban so they could defeat the Russkies for us.  That's most likely the strongest argument to make for nation building on Obama's part.  We made promises we'd help them into the modern world if they stopped the Red Menace.  Then the USSR folded and we bailed.  We owe them something, we started the mess they're stuck with.

      I'm not looking for a love that will lift me up and carry me away. A love that will stroll alongside and make a few amusing comments will suffice.

      by I love OCD on Thu Aug 23, 2012 at 06:07:05 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  One of the great ironies of that era is the US (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        IreGyre, Robobagpiper, I love OCD

        left deciding to support the junta vs the Brits in the Falklands crisis.  All those nice raised-consciousness, crunchy activists were just like the Argentine kids who got thrown out of airplanes into the Southern Ocean.

        By the way, the smallpox blanket thing is discredited bullshit.  There is a single documented episode from the French and Indian war, but all serious historians understand that the smallpox and other epidemics that stemmed from contact were accidental.  Most of the native Americans who died from European diseases never met a European, as the epidemics spread much faster than the explorers and settlers did.

        Beware of using Ward Churchill as a source.

        Where are we, now that we need us most?

        by Frank Knarf on Thu Aug 23, 2012 at 07:37:43 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Churchill *used* bad sources (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Robobagpiper, I love OCD

          because he wanted to believe the stories.

          Sadly - for him AND for us - when his sources are compared against the historical record, there is no "there" there. At most there's anecdotal evidence pointing to ye olde human greed, stupidity, ignorance and incompetence, and possibly some malice  - "Business As Usual" - but without any documentary backup.

          If it's
          Not your body,
          Then it's
          Not your choice
          And it's
          None of your damn business!

          by TheOtherMaven on Thu Aug 23, 2012 at 08:38:53 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  Thanks for that information. (2+ / 0-)

          I never went back to check on it and am enormously relieved to think it's not true.  It's one of those things that eats at me when it crosses my mind.

          I'm not looking for a love that will lift me up and carry me away. A love that will stroll alongside and make a few amusing comments will suffice.

          by I love OCD on Thu Aug 23, 2012 at 11:26:09 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  ¡Hay una mujer desaparecida! (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        I love OCD, Marko the Werelynx

        ¡Hay una mujer desaparecida!
        In Chile, in Chile, in Chile.
        And the Junta knows
        And the Junta knows
        And the Junta knows where she is
        Fighting and dying!
        ¡Hay una mujer desaparecida!

        Clare Elena Cantero
        Elisa Del Carmen Escobar
        Eliana Maria Espinosa
        Rosa Elena Morales

        Missing in Brazil
        Missing in Uruguay
        Missing in Guatamala
        Missing in El Salvador

        ¡Hay una mujer desaparecida!

        Holly Near

        Hey, Mitt! Thanks for ObamneyCare.

        by Mokurai on Thu Aug 23, 2012 at 09:44:55 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  "It's not Godwin when it's a fact." (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        I love OCD, Marko the Werelynx


        Science can tell you how to clone a dinosaur. Humanities explains why this is a bad idea.

        by Killer of Sacred Cows on Thu Aug 23, 2012 at 07:50:27 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  "Your vagina is full of Republicans." (6+ / 0-)

    "Must have gotten it from a toilet seat."

    Simple question: In the years since Republicans successfully urged the disempowering of workers and unions in the Midwest, what has happened to those states economies?

    by Stephen Daugherty on Thu Aug 23, 2012 at 04:44:19 AM PDT

  •  I'm an AWAKE voter (9+ / 0-)

    A friend of mine sent me a post on FB with a picture of an African-American woman holding a sign with
    Awake with the Awake marked.

    The caption stated "Like and Share if you're wide awake for this election and not voting for Obama!"  My friend, one of my best friends for nearly my entire life, lives in the same small, rural town we grew up in.  She married a much older man who is very conservative, and regularly uses the N word.  She has a Masters degree, but is unemployed, and has been for well over a year, because there are no jobs where we are from.  Here is my response to her:

    I agree that we need to learn, pay attention, and make a decision about the election. What are the candidates saying they are going to do, but what are they really going to do? Romney wants to take $2000 from me and you and give it to a guy who makes $250, 000/year cause he is a "job creator." I think Romney meant that people who make that much money tend to donate to him, hopefully giving him the job of POTUS. Those unemployment benefits you are getting (for now), thank a Democrat. Republicans have been trying to slash them for years. Unemployment benefits, food stamps, medical care for poor children, financial aid, all are helping hands that Republicans want to slash to give tax cuts to the rich. My student loans are 3.4%, right now. Republicans wanted the interest rate to double...I agree that we need to be aware and awake about what is going on in Washington.

    She hasn't commented on the post, neither has her husband, but I hopefully pointed out that voting for Republicans is not in her best interest.

  •  Recent "dialogue" with a Florida cousin (23+ / 0-)

    Him: Obama has ruined the economy with his spending

    Me: Check the market, there's record profits and the Dow is over 13 and it's never been better for the corporate world.

    Him: I don't benefit from that

    Me: (savoring the moment) So, you admit "trickle down" doesn't have any benefit for you? Tax cuts for the wealthy don't benefit you? The 1% DOES NOT let the money just rain down on top of you, do they?

    How many times and how many different ways do I have to demonstrate that it so absolutely wrong headed to think that giving money to rich people is good, but giving money to poor people is bad?

    God forgive me, but I hope the damn hurricane puts him on public assistance so he can see first hand how miserable it is to try to survive on welfare.

    We've been spelling it wrong all these years. It's actually: PRO-GOP-ANDA

    by Patriot4peace on Thu Aug 23, 2012 at 04:54:29 AM PDT

  •  Nothing Succeeds Like Success (12+ / 0-)

    This diary is totally right on. In fact, it describes how I've thought and acted politically myself.

    Progressives have a lot of successes to build on, especially lately. Most of them implicitly challenge some dastardly negative facts about America, that we've changed. Those points should be the priority in convincing people to join us.

    Obama won because "hope" was better than the inevitable despair that WcCain was bringing. Because "change" was the only option. Obama, for all his faults, did bring plenty of change to satisfy lots of hope. Democrats generally likewise.

    Those messages are what we must spread. They are in fact what keeps us politically active, instead of rolled up in a ball under our desks.

    Denial can be evaporated by confronting it with truth. But positive truths are much easier to accept. And they're also easier to deliver.

    "When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro." - HST

    by DocGonzo on Thu Aug 23, 2012 at 04:56:13 AM PDT

    •  I hear ya, but lots of people I talk to... (0+ / 0-)

      don't see it this way.  They don't believe that anything has changed. The economy sucked and it STILL sucks; they feel swindled b/c they voted for someone who promised hope and change and didn't deliver.  As a result, these people might not vote for him again. They have NO IDEA about any of the changes or policies Obama implemented; they just know that pay check to pay check = bad; therefore, Obama=bad.

      This is the most difficult mindset to challenge. It's also the most infuriating b/c they just don't get it that they are voting against their own self interests. In my experience, even if I try to explain or if I attempt a discussion (positive or otherwise) regarding any other policies--social, education etc., it doesn't matter if it's not their wallet.

      I am surrounded by people like this; good people, but not insightful people--and it makes me sad (and angry).  I hope this is not a sampling of the majority of America. Shit.

  •  we also litmus test and deny legitimacy (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Only Needs a Beat, I love OCD

    I've been a green (lower case g) all my life. Remember the doooooom doooooom Club of Rome? For decades we've always been a couple of years from ecological apocalypse. Where the hippie mistrusting right wing foot soldier is concerned global warming is just another hysterical hippie scientist rant and we'll be onto something else in 10 years.

    We also deny the legitimacy of many of their concerns. I know group think well enough that I'm not going to go into details to avoid a troll accusations but as we continue arguing for economic / governmental structures we have to continue to perfect them from the ground up. I'm a staunch union supporter but I know stories from my fathers' and grandfathers' generation / careers which play right into the right wing "unions are evil" narrative. I have professional experiences in this century that still speak to that. With some of the right wing memes there are small elements of truth.

    It's not enough to be saying to the other side "you're all suckers being played by a corporate cash machine" we have to be volunteering and creating ways to improve the structures that we're fighting to preserve.

    A big right wing meme that works on their base is "government doesn't work". We have to show them that's wrong from the ground up.

    If you didn't like the news today, go out and make some of your own.

    by jgnyc on Thu Aug 23, 2012 at 04:59:47 AM PDT

  •  Lucky me! (9+ / 0-)

    I learned the truth about the cowboys from their descendants.  I do not know if other mixed race or full blood natives ever get this but over the course of my life I have had several white people tell me the moment they find I have Native American blood all bout how their ancestors were big famous Indian killers.  Who laughs and brags about their ancestors killing your ancestors like it is a big joke?  

    That passed by; this can, too. - Deor

    by stevie avebury on Thu Aug 23, 2012 at 04:59:54 AM PDT

  •  this diary is an excellent example of balance. (12+ / 0-)

    which is something many of us need, at least i do.

    of course it's near impossible to reach the ones who would never vote for obama
    or any dem for that matter, but there are are people out there who are reachable.

    some will respond to outrage
    some will respond to upbeat

    this diary helped clear my head... even if just a bit.

    thanks for this, OCD.
    tip and rec.

    Toleration is the greatest gift of the mind; it requires the same effort of the brain that it takes to balance oneself on a bicycle. -Helen Keller

    by ridemybike on Thu Aug 23, 2012 at 05:05:22 AM PDT

    •  They are losing a few percent every year (5+ / 0-)

      If the history of the Federalists party implosion is any guide, there will be no more Republican party in about ten years. They were the original Party of No in the Jefferson-Adams election of 1800 and through both of Jefferson's terms as President, and won their very last state-level election in 1815. The Era of Good Feeling, in which Jefferson's Democratic-Republican Party was uncontested, lasted until the next corporation-backed party, the Whigs, came together.

      Later on, the Whigs imploded, and the Republicans appeared. Presumably after the Republicans go away they will be replaced by something even more bizarrely inexplicable, but equally the product of the sort of deranged imagination that can take Ayn Rand to be a philosopher, and the Market Fundamentalists to be economists.

      Hey, Mitt! Thanks for ObamneyCare.

      by Mokurai on Thu Aug 23, 2012 at 09:54:13 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Or (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Killer of Sacred Cows

        They will get all the levers of government and re-write the rules so they stay in power.

        History is full of examples of this.  The most famous of the 20th century being Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union, both of whom were hijacked by a determined minority using the existing democratic process.

  •  They're Stupid (4+ / 0-)

    Republican voters are certainly stupid. More than that they're crazy and evil, but it takes (and makes) stupid to be that crazy evil.

    But that's why the rest of your diary is so right. If they weren't so stupid, we could just tell them the truth that's convinced us. They'd already be convinced like us having heard the truth as we've heard it. Since they're stupid we need to embrace their stupidity in our messages, giving them only messages of success and benefit from eliminating the crazy, evil stupidity that rules them.

    "When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro." - HST

    by DocGonzo on Thu Aug 23, 2012 at 05:05:57 AM PDT

  •  please rephrase (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Only Needs a Beat

    Those voters are voting against their own interests.  Yes, you are right, that's not WHY they are voting that way.  But they are still voting against their own interests.  It's wrong to suggest otherwise and you don't need to make that statement in the manner that you do to make your point.

    •  I'm not sure what offended you so much. (3+ / 0-)

      Maybe because I wasn't thinking "God these people are morans and need to be set straight" I was actually thinking "Maybe there's a better way to reach some of the people who are voting against their best interests."  I missed what's so offensive.

      Trust me, if you know anything at all about me you know I will flat out call you a moron if I'm in rant mode.

      This isn't rant mode, it's a question about whether we're having the wrong discussions, whether we might work together to get our message across better.

      I'll kosmail you when I post my next rant.  The difference might startle you.

      I'm not looking for a love that will lift me up and carry me away. A love that will stroll alongside and make a few amusing comments will suffice.

      by I love OCD on Thu Aug 23, 2012 at 11:36:26 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  The problem with the two-party system (3+ / 0-)

    Is that eventually, the other party will take over. It's inevitable. Regardless of how far right the GOP goes, the public will ALWAYS go to them either when the Dems screw up, or if they simply have Dem fatigue. The GOP has virtually no penalty for going further and further right except in a few isolated circumstances.

    Of course, the Democratic Party could go far to the left to counter this. But that would just make the country even more unstable. The two-party system is an abomination when one party is descending into fascism like the GOP.

    •  Remember we haven't always had the same 2 parties (3+ / 0-)

      It's always possible the GOP will go the way of the Federalists or the Whigs, and something else will arise to fill the vacuum. Maybe an honest Conservative party, or maybe the Democratic Party will shift to the right and we'll see the rise of a new "Liberal" party. Or maybe the Democrats will fragment (again) and form two new parties (which is how we got the Whigs after the Federalists dissipated).

      If it's
      Not your body,
      Then it's
      Not your choice
      And it's
      None of your damn business!

      by TheOtherMaven on Thu Aug 23, 2012 at 08:50:38 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Agree & disagree; they cannot be persuaded (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    I love OCD, get the red out

    Easily because if the long term brsiwashingoops I mean conditioning by evil RW forces. Plus it's is easier to stand still or go in reverse.

    Tipped & rec'ed

    The radical Republican party is the party of oppression, fear, loathing and above all more money and power for the people who robbed us.

    by a2nite on Thu Aug 23, 2012 at 05:29:45 AM PDT

  •  So What I Am Reading Is That (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    I love OCD, pat bunny, BachFan, ssgbryan

    Republicans may not be stupid but they're ignorant dupes.

    This head movie makes my eyes rain.

    by The Lone Apple on Thu Aug 23, 2012 at 05:36:45 AM PDT

    •  Pretty much. Calling them stupid and dupes (7+ / 0-)

      doesn't open their minds very far, though, and yelling about how awful the Republicans are isn't effective either.

      I'm not talking about the hard core righties, I don't much care about them.  I'm talking about the people who are just busy living a life that's getting harder to maintain.  

      Bush added 400+ regulations to the SBA in 8 years.  Obama is simplifying the SBA.  I live in a small town with no big box stores and few chain restaurants.  We're a template for what this country can look like, deep in the heart of Texas.  

      Obama's vision of our future, our towns and cities, our economy is riding on small businesses, manufacturing, inventions that will change the future.  It's a sensible vision.  The corporate world is gone, they're not our future in this country and they'll never employ enough of us to make the good old days come back.  The good old days only lasted about 30 years anyway.

      You can help people understand that the future is in their hands, not Wall Street's.  

      I'm not looking for a love that will lift me up and carry me away. A love that will stroll alongside and make a few amusing comments will suffice.

      by I love OCD on Thu Aug 23, 2012 at 06:19:34 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  And fear can make anyone willfully ignorant. (5+ / 0-)

      Some of the most ignorant, irrational people I have known have been brilliant, I.Q.-wise.

      Republicans prey on fear, and even many, many innately good people have a lot of fear and are susceptible to them.

      This diary especially strikes a chord in my because a few months ago I went on a road trip right through the heart of the Bible Belt ...

      ... and at all our stops, in all the little towns we went through, the people we met tended to be some of the nicest, friendliest, most giving people I've met in any part of the country.  And I'm willing to bet most of them vote Republican.

      WHY?  Why are those kind, caring, obviously decent people not on OUR side?  

      As the diarist asks:  What is our failing that we can't reach them?

  •  Reading your initial questions (0+ / 0-)

    my answer to each is yes. I'm 42. I guess that's not old enough.

    Except for the statement that we "allowed" the Nazis to exterminate people. Bizarre construct IMO. Did we "allow" Stalin, Mao? For that matter did we allow 10,000 dissidents to be slaughtered every month by the Vietnamese communists before our massive escalation there?

    What allowed us the power to defeat the Nazis but the capitalist industrialists like Ford who we at the same time decry for there own postures on race and labor, pollution...
    Was Roosevelt's war machine not developed fast enough? Or should we have had the MIC in place already for such a contingency?
    This piece is so condescending I wonder how you could possibly expect to reach anyone, let alone your political opposition. Talk about dripping with smug superiority.

    •  Until Pearl Harbor, there (3+ / 0-)

      was no movement in this country to enter the war.  We were still reeling from WWI and the Depression that was partly a result of a complete global financial restructuring after WWI.

      Our politicians knew about the ghettos and the gas chambers and the ovens.  They knew who was being targeted, they knew enough details that the moral imperative would have been to enter the war much sooner.  They chose not to because the public was not with them.  They also chose to limit immigration of Jewish people knowing what was happening to Jews in Europe.

      Sorry you feel condescended to.  I'm 20 years older than you are, I can only speak to how I was educated in small towns in North Dakota in Minnesota.  I was sold a pretty picture without the ugly details.  It pissed me off.  It continues to piss me off that I see a massive lack of knowledge of history in this country.  

      Pretty simple really, this is a personal political statement, and so far I'm not feeling a need to delete it.

      I'm not looking for a love that will lift me up and carry me away. A love that will stroll alongside and make a few amusing comments will suffice.

      by I love OCD on Thu Aug 23, 2012 at 06:30:14 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  just a bit of historical correction (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        IreGyre, Farugia

        the gas chambers and ovens didn't start until after the US entered the war. While there were mass executions, particularly of Jews in the then Soviet Union, the focus was on mass expulsion of western Jews to the 'east'. The extermination plan wasn't formalized until January 1942 ( gives a partial timeline). It was after that meeting that that ovens and gas chambers were planned and constructed.

        Try to shout at the right buildings for a few months.

        by nickrud on Thu Aug 23, 2012 at 07:26:36 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  But *everybody* knew about the slave labor camps (2+ / 0-)

          as early as the late 1930's. The main difference between working and starving "unwanted people" to death and putting them to death is the former takes longer.

          "Historical revisionism" wants us to believe that nobody knew anything about the evils the Nazis were perpetrating until 1945 - but that is sadly not the case. People knew by 1938 about the dictatorial rules, the oppression and tyrannization of minorities, the slave labor camps (which were slow death) - but they turned a blind eye as long as it wasn't coming at them. (The US was able to turn a blind eye for two years longer than Europe, and would probably have continued to do so if Japan hadn't upset the applecart.)

          If it's
          Not your body,
          Then it's
          Not your choice
          And it's
          None of your damn business!

          by TheOtherMaven on Thu Aug 23, 2012 at 08:59:46 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  There's no question (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Farugia, I love OCD

            that the Allies were well aware of the Final Solution well before D-Day - there was discussion of diverting bombing flights to rail lines serving Auschwitz and other extermination camps.*

            However, claiming that the US turned a blind eye to explicit extermination (as said above) is false.

            I'm not going to argue the merits of whether or not the US should have intervened then; It think it's much more important to discuss where we should or shouldn't be intervening now.

            *It was Historical Revisionism (often called scholarly work) that brought this out. The original story is that the Allies new nothing, not the other way around.

            Try to shout at the right buildings for a few months.

            by nickrud on Thu Aug 23, 2012 at 09:45:46 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  Did we do anything about Cambodia? (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            I love OCD



            We know about atrocities all the time in other places and do nothing, even when the perpetrator is objectively weak.

            Germany was one of the most powerful nations on the earth at the time.  Given that it is just as unthinkable today that we'd go to war with China over how they treat, say, their Tibetan minority, it was completely unthinkable to go to war with Germany over what it was doing internally.

            Ditto Japan and what it was doing in China.

            Nobody wants us to go into Iran or Syria either.  And we probably wouldn't do any good there if we went either.

        •  There's some question about that (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Killer of Sacred Cows

          when did we know business.  They may not have built Auschwitz yet, but there was no question that the non-Aryan non-heterosexual population was the target, and that many were already dead.

          I'm not looking for a love that will lift me up and carry me away. A love that will stroll alongside and make a few amusing comments will suffice.

          by I love OCD on Thu Aug 23, 2012 at 11:39:31 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Yes (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            I love OCD

            but I don't think any but a small minority actually believed the Nazis were actually really planning an assembly line murder of millions of people. Nanking killed hundreds of thousands; millions were killed in WWI; both were living memory for everyone in government.

            Hindsight is good and we should absolutely take advantage of it - where it fails us is presuming that what we see in hindsight should have been glaringly obvious to those living through the events.

            Try to shout at the right buildings for a few months.

            by nickrud on Thu Aug 23, 2012 at 12:06:52 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

      •  I should add (3+ / 0-)

        that I've tipped and rec'ced your diary (and would again) because this one bit of historical inaccuracy doesn't invalidate your point in any way.

        Try to shout at the right buildings for a few months.

        by nickrud on Thu Aug 23, 2012 at 07:31:45 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  I'm sorry but that just isn't true. The lend lease (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        I love OCD, Farugia

        program started well almost a year before Pearl Harbor and the arsenal build up well before that. Massive involvement began years before our own declaration of war.

        But that really goes to my point. Yeah there was a neutrality stance after WWI, that lends itself to a broader discussion than a facile condemnation of America for "allowing" the Nazis to rise to power.

        And I didn't mean to go OT with that subject.

        Rather than tout the greatness and value of the ACA, among many other progressive achievements, many on the left spent years and so much energy criticizing the program and the President in the absolute surety of their correctness and rightiousness it undermined it's political value and did nothing to improve the law. In the mean time the extremist right grew in power as the tea party was dismissed as a joke.
        There is a lot of doom and gloom on the left so much so that defeating the Nazi's becomes fodder for criticizing our nation.

        I don't know if I'm getting my point across very well but hyper partisanship is not entirely lost on the left and does little IMO to win over an opposition who's history has contributed to both the shortcomings and achievements of our past.

        •  "Lend-lease" was an FDR end-run (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          fisheye, I love OCD, Farugia

          around the unwillingness of Congress and the American people to do anything to rock the boat. The excuse was "we loan the UK what it needs now and they pay us back later - it's just good business".

          Eventually the public caught up with him, aided by a kick in the pants from Japan. Eventually.

          If it's
          Not your body,
          Then it's
          Not your choice
          And it's
          None of your damn business!

          by TheOtherMaven on Thu Aug 23, 2012 at 09:04:19 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  The Nazis were "allowed" to take (3+ / 0-)

          Poland, and France and......  It was perhaps a common-sense decision to stay neutral for as long as we did, but there was knowledge of what was being done, what was being planned, and what it might take to stop it.

          And I did mention that WWI and the Great Depression had us on the ropes.  It's not just about a bunch of peaceniks disapproving or being a nation of isolationists.  It's also about the enormous toll of the War To End All Wars and the financial chaos that followed it.

          And I still think we took a cowardly stance for too long.  That's my opinion, not historical fact.  I think we were cowards to block Jews from immigrating.  I think we were cowards to build camps to house Japanese-American citizens.  It's not that we're evil, it's that we're not fully "The land of the free and the home of the brave", and I'm tired of being sold that myth.  I prefer to take a realistic look at what happened because that gives us the opportunity to not repeat those errors.

          I'm not looking for a love that will lift me up and carry me away. A love that will stroll alongside and make a few amusing comments will suffice.

          by I love OCD on Thu Aug 23, 2012 at 11:47:02 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  Yes, as far as (3+ / 0-)

      the history mentioned in the diary, we learned about all of those in the public schools I went to. I'm 43.

  •  Good post. (7+ / 0-)

    Thinking from a personal standpoint, I quit posting or reading at FDL because of the negativity.  

    The posters there became so cynical and negative toward Obama and Democrats, especially during the healthcare debates that it became apparent to me that they were more interested in winning their argument than they were in advancing healthcare for all.  Their all or nothing attitude was a real turn off.

    Bottom line, I couldn't deal with the never ceasing negativity.  I think that is true of most people.

    •  Some people just seem to be (5+ / 0-)

      drawn to negativity.  Not sure why, but it's what energizes them.  They can find the downside of every upside, the "yeah but" for every success.
      I know people in Real Life who are like this, and not just about politics.  It seems to be hard-wired.

    •  I wrote them off then, as well. (4+ / 0-)

      Then I saw some of GG's posts deconstructed and decided they might be our version of Fox News.  Slice and dice what's said in order to prove your thesis.  Who needs it?  History proves that the most effective change factors are incremental.  Demanding purity and perfection basically means you don't care if the change is effective and lasting, you just care about getting what you think is best.

      My life experience tells me that every time I've decided what's the best plan I'm in deep shit.  Mostly I focus on taking what I hope is the next right step.  One step is easy to backtrack.  A life plan, not so much.

      I'm not looking for a love that will lift me up and carry me away. A love that will stroll alongside and make a few amusing comments will suffice.

      by I love OCD on Thu Aug 23, 2012 at 06:35:32 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  I'm thinking you shouldn't be talking about anyone (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    I love OCD

    "dripping with smug superiority."

  •  Hate is their motivation (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    ssgbryan, Killer of Sacred Cows

    They don' want their tax $ to feed/heal/assist widows & orphans, because they have done nothing to deserve help. They' rather build nice camps in Arizona where unfortunates could be housed (but not fed) until they blew away like tumbleweeds.

    Don't let millionaires steal Social Security.
    I said, "Don't let millionaires steal Social Security!"

    by Leo in NJ on Thu Aug 23, 2012 at 05:47:09 AM PDT

    •  That's true for a small segment of this country, a (4+ / 0-)

      and it may always be that way.  It's not true for every person who doesn't vote with us though, and those are the people who can be reached.

      I'm not looking for a love that will lift me up and carry me away. A love that will stroll alongside and make a few amusing comments will suffice.

      by I love OCD on Thu Aug 23, 2012 at 07:18:30 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  OK, but why does half the country vote to (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Killer of Sacred Cows

        hurt themselves as long as those evil black/brown/muslim/female/gay bad people get hurt more? Because they want to pay for gilding Mitt Romney's 2-nd best yacht? I do not belive that., they are not that generous.

        Don't let millionaires steal Social Security.
        I said, "Don't let millionaires steal Social Security!"

        by Leo in NJ on Thu Aug 23, 2012 at 07:23:19 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  No because they can be sold on (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Leo in NJ, Killer of Sacred Cows

          fearing the "other", which is human nature unfortunately.

          What I've seen happen time and again, however, is that it's easy to hate on homosexuals, for instance, in the macro but less easy to hate that nice couple down the street.  That's why leaving the closet and taking the heat has done so much for GLBT civil rights.

          It's easy to hate people like me who depend on government support until you meet someone like me, and then you know how hard I've tried to succeed on my own, and how shameful the failures are.

          I never intended to struggle with PTSD inspired bi-polar disorder.  That was not my life plan.  My life plan was derailed by a pedophile.  I was not born at the right time to get the early help I might have gotten that might have reduced the impact.  I fought for 47 years to do this on my own.  My unfortunate resume and 3 years of unemployment are what led me to apply for SS Disability.  It's harder to resent me if you know my story and you see how I live.

          It's personal, and that's what I keep saying here.  Find the personal in that person you're disagreeing with, and let them know what you know could change things for the better.  

          I'm not looking for a love that will lift me up and carry me away. A love that will stroll alongside and make a few amusing comments will suffice.

          by I love OCD on Thu Aug 23, 2012 at 11:59:05 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Aren't we saying the same thing? (2+ / 0-)

            Republicans want to hurt people, and like all bullies, they figure the wounded make easy targets.

            Don't let millionaires steal Social Security.
            I said, "Don't let millionaires steal Social Security!"

            by Leo in NJ on Thu Aug 23, 2012 at 02:00:41 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Republican leaders and their sycophants (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Killer of Sacred Cows

              are incredibly cold, selfish, and hostile.

              Not everyone who votes for them is equally awful.

              How do we lose if we try to do a better job selling Progressiveism and our successes?  I've been hearing for decades that Democrats are lousy at messaging.  Let's practice getting better at it until we find the best methods.

              I'm not looking for a love that will lift me up and carry me away. A love that will stroll alongside and make a few amusing comments will suffice.

              by I love OCD on Thu Aug 23, 2012 at 03:29:35 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

    •  Hate yes, but primarily fear (IMO). (3+ / 0-)

      The former stems from the latter.  Fear has a way of diminishing the capacity for rational thought, which is why it's so difficult to get through to them.  We need to find a message that appeals to them on a more visceral, lizard-brain level.

      "Give to every other human being every right that you claim for yourself." - Robert G. Ingersoll

      by Apost8 on Thu Aug 23, 2012 at 11:28:33 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Unconditionally Tipped and Recc'd (11+ / 0-)

    I don't agree with 100% of what you say, but the salient points about approach are right on.  I think that it continues to be the left's greatest failing that we can't even talk to regular people who we believe are voting against their best interests, i.e. we assume that we are in a position to judge folks as "stupid" so we talk down to them.  We talk at them.  We don't talk with them.

    Great diaries.

  •  I've been thinking a lot lately (5+ / 0-)

    about how the overall liberal message and tone--including this site--is basically that we're screwed but we should do something about it anyway, at least get upset over it or something. Not exactly a hopefully or appealing message that might win over non-political junkies and non-crazy non-Dems over to our side.

    Also, we tend to be extremely reactive and fixated on what's wrong, as opposed to forward-looking and acting and focused on fixing what's wrong and making things better. In our own way, we're actually allowing the other side to take the lead on the issues, by being obsessed with how horrible they are and with every latest outrage on their part, instead of doing what we can to move the country forward. I'm not saying that we should ignore the right. But we do need to stop being fixated on, frightened and paralyzed by them. Nearly every rec'd diary is about the latest RW outrage, as opposed to on what we can do, or are doing, to make the country better. We're seriously into outrage porn on the left. And this is supposed to attract non-lefties to our cause or solve today's problems?

    Um, no.

    Leading means leading, in every way, including in terms of messaging, and not reacting, which is letting the other side take the lead. Leading is being confident that your way is right and the other side is wrong and not letting yourself get too upset over what they're doing, and instead pushing past it to do things your way.

    E.g. instead of being horrified at their attempts to ban abortion and convince the public that it's evil and unconstitutional, we should work towards making abortion more readily available and protected and convince the public that it's a perfectly legitimate and normal medical procedure when done properly.

    We have to stop acting like angry children upset at how mean our parents are to us (because in many ways we do regard the right that way), and just move on and do the things we want to do and believe are right and good, and just ignore them. We have to stop RE-acting, and start ACTING. It's our country as much as their's, and we have to act that way, and stop wasting so much time and energy on being angry at how backwards and harmful they are. You don't argue or fight with or pay attention to a fool or madman. You go around them and do what you want and need to do. And if they're causing mischief, you do what you can to restrain them so that they can't. But you don't let them set the agenda.

    "Liberty without virtue would be no blessing to us" - Benjamin Rush, 1777

    by kovie on Thu Aug 23, 2012 at 06:08:09 AM PDT

    •  "Forward." /nt (2+ / 0-)

      A danceyhorse in every car elevator!

      by this just in on Thu Aug 23, 2012 at 07:12:50 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  I am pretty deep in outrage fatigue too (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Killer of Sacred Cows

      It DOES seem hopeless that so many in this country seem to have just gone batshit insane, fact-immune.

      And their numbers do not seem to be shrinking, rather they seem to be growing.

      It makes me ashamed to be an American, and is not making me feel like volunteering or donating, etc.  What is worse, it seems like the best we can do is hold back the tide of stupid for maybe another 2-4 years, and even that's a coin flip.    And even if we succeed, we have to live with national-security-state crap from our own side.

      I was going to write more, but it'll just make me more depressed.

    •  Ah, and I forgot to ask in my last post (2+ / 0-)

      I would love to ACT.  

      What can I do that isn't the same stuff that we've been doing all along?  Something that would give me a voice that can compete with the stupid political adds and endless lies?

      •  Get on Yahoo or WaPo (5+ / 0-)

        of your local paper's website and join the commenters.  Have facts and links handy.  Don't start huge fights, just say something like "Well I know that's not true because.... and post a link.  If you can find something from the primaries with Newt or Rick lambasting Romney use those.

        Write LTE's, often.  Short and pithy, one subject, with references to source material.

        Go to the OFA site and look for opportunities to be one of the boots on the ground in your area.

        Talk to people in your circle.  After the first stomach-churning times it gets easy.  I'm pretty sneaky, I can usually work something in that I think will grab someone's attention.

        I never take on birthers or racists.  Why waste precious energy?  I do ask what the other side is suggesting as a solution when it's the evils of Planned Parenthood or Obamacare.  I talk about my mom and the doughnut hole and ask if they can afford to buy their own or their parent's meds if Obamacare is repealed.  

        The biggest thing is studying up on the hot button issues so you have good, simple answers when you hear the lies.

        It won't maybe change the poster on WaPo but it might change the way the lurkers see things.  If no one refutes a lie it takes deep root.

        I'm not looking for a love that will lift me up and carry me away. A love that will stroll alongside and make a few amusing comments will suffice.

        by I love OCD on Thu Aug 23, 2012 at 03:40:04 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  I'd like to rec this a million times. (7+ / 0-)

    I love OCD, you have articulated very well what I have tried to articulate here at DKos unsuccessfully in the past and so I gave up.

    The GOP is very good at validating people's feelings, and (speaking generally) the Dems and Progressives are not.

    Validating peoples' feelings is extremely important if you want to motivate them or to get them to change their behaviors.
    If you want non-progressives or non-Dems to think/behave differently, you first need to acknowledge: Yes, America is a great country. Yes, there's a lot to be proud of here. Yes, it IS frustrating when "some people" seem to be "cheating the system".

    Once people experience that you "grok" them, a lot of their defenses are softened and they can then hear what you are saying and are able to consider things from a different angle.

    This approach to communication is called Motivational Interviewing and I recommend it to anyone who's interested to actually changing the way other people think and act.

    Motivational Inteviewing


    All Kossacks are my allies, but if you can't express your thoughts in a civil and kind manner, I won't be engaging in a conversation with you.

    by Boston to Salem on Thu Aug 23, 2012 at 06:08:39 AM PDT

  •  This is a really great diary. (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Tchrldy, I love OCD

    It's nice to see someone rise above all of the individual issues that we're always railing about in order to take a top-level view.

    Absolutely right that Democrats are not as good as Republicans at selling a positive view.

    Geez, I saw a headline on Yahoo this morning that claims that Romney is pulling away with a lead in the swing states.  I can't wait for this election to be over.

  •  I don't think it is that simple (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    RobespierreHoo, I love OCD, ssgbryan

    yes, there are people that respond to emotional messages, pretty pictures that make them feel good about themselves.

    But it is a particularly uncurious, thoughtless human being who can see their standard of  living erode, job losses, house value lost, kids can't get jobs after expensive education, pensions taken away, and then still believe the pretty pictures on the one hand and that poor people of color (who are still poor, still not buying big houses, still aren't the bankers and the doctors and the politicians in their neighborhoods taking over everything, still not their boss at work) have gotten all that money.   Who can hear about the rich getting a lot richer, and still think some welfare queen exists who is making out like a bandit.   They seem incapable of thinking and accepting that their enemies aren't poor people, gay people, people of color.  They are dangerous types of voters.  They are values voters and there are lots of them.   There is a lot of hate and prejudice behind what they do,  they don't think about that either, but its lurking just the same.

    •  It's easier to understand if (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Killer of Sacred Cows

      you know anything about the abuse cycle.  It isn't purely logical, but if you believe you need that job in order to survive you'll also need to believe that the people who are pimping you are not as awful as others think they are.  

      How many people do you know who can quit their current job to make a statement about inequality?  Me?  0!

      It's easier to take refuge in blaming the other.  

      I'm not looking for a love that will lift me up and carry me away. A love that will stroll alongside and make a few amusing comments will suffice.

      by I love OCD on Thu Aug 23, 2012 at 12:02:24 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  This is an excellent diary (7+ / 0-)

    I see this attitude all the time in my history classes.  Freshmen and Sophomore history students have a hard time dealing with facts that contradict their vision of the US as "land of the free and home of the brave." Roman Catholic students don't like hearing about the battles for control of Medieval society between kings and Popes and the corruption in the Medieval church.  Protestants don't like hearing that Martin Luther was also virulently anti-Semitic.

    It is very easy to focus only on the negative and we need to give people a positive reason to vote for the President in addition to pointing out the vast negatives of Romney/Ryan/Aiken and the Republican party.  

    I find it way too easy in light of the outrageous ideas coming from the right, to focus only on the negative.  

    Here's a link to an interesting article about a study done by SUNY Buffalo in which the scientists examined why so many people who voted for Bush in 2004, believed that Saddam Hussein was involved in 9/11.  The scientists found that this belief had more to do with people trying to justify in their own minds why the US declared war on Iraq than with political propaganda.  It seems that people did not want to believe that the US engaged in a War of Opportunity rather than a war to protect US citizens.

    Feminism is the radical notion that women are people. ~Cheris Kramarae and Paula Treichler

    by Tchrldy on Thu Aug 23, 2012 at 06:54:00 AM PDT

  •  we have had this conversation before... (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    about changing the way we approach repubs, validating their 'feelings' and winning their votes...  for the most part it doesnt work.

    HOW can anyone validate Palin supporters,  Atkins supporters,  Norquist supporters???   you would have to agree that Obama is a muslim manchurian candidate who is going to force their daughters to have abortions while raising EVERYONES taxes to pay for it.  You would have to sympathize with them when they declare that America is and was founded as a "christian nation and that Deficits caused by neverending war is good but ALL GOV is bad.  You would have to validate their racism, sexism and homophobia and militaristic attitude towards the rest of the world... you would have to sympathize with them about  college education causing America hating and that the south should have WON the civil war... can any of you really do that?  do it convincingly?

    When I see 'the polls' I am struck by one thing... a full 1/3 of this nation CANNOT be persuaded to ever vote against the GOP...  there is always about 33% that doesnt want you to validate their feelings or beliefs, they want Democrats and especially liberals to just GO AWAY.

    At some point in our political history the republican party realized they needed to Woo deeply religious people to their party and did it by turning the political debate into a religious one... they created social WEDGE ISSUES and kept pushing that wedge deeper and deeper into the rift they created until the divide became enormous and dangerous and that is where we are NOW...  standing at the edge of the divide.,,and no amount of validation that we feel their pain or understand it or even agree with it can ever pull that 33% back from the ledge...  and what is really sad is that the GOP now realizes that they no longer control this 33%, the 33% controls THEM.  

    All WE can do is keep wooing the younger generations, the non NAM generations and get out as many of OUR sides voters as we can and fight the attempts to stop Democrats from voting.  If the Democratic base votes en masse the GOP cannot win... they KNOW that, which is why they spend unlimited time and unlimited money to stop us from voting!!

    "You've got to be an optimist to be a Democrat, and a humorist to stay one" - Will Rogers

    by KnotIookin on Thu Aug 23, 2012 at 06:58:36 AM PDT

    •  I'm not proposing that we can (2+ / 0-)

      change the Akins and the Palins, or any of their fanboys and girls.  

      I don't beat my head against brick walls any more than is absolutely necessary.

      I'm mostly wondering if we're missing opportunities to influence people who aren't fully sold by the RWNM.

      I'd never try to engage Rush Limbaugh or Sean Hannity.  I'll definitely try to engage some of my neighbors.  What's to lose?

      I'm not looking for a love that will lift me up and carry me away. A love that will stroll alongside and make a few amusing comments will suffice.

      by I love OCD on Thu Aug 23, 2012 at 12:05:54 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I have tried to have a SANE convo re Ryan and Ayn (0+ / 0-)

        with a very intelligent person...  this person presented an argument that Ryan is not a devotee of Rand and used Ryans own claim that he wasn't as the proof.   Considering this persons intelligence I pointed out that taking Ryan's word on this subject was like believing the bank robber when he said he didn't rob the bank to which I got back a mag article on this subject, as further proof that ryan was not a rand devotee... after reading the article I realized that the only 'Proof'  that was contained in it was (again) statements from Ryan himself

        this person I was arguing with is a retired lawyer who is smarter then this....  but seems to have parked his brain at the political door.  He WANTS to believe what he wants to believe and no amount of arguing will shatter that belief.

        I tried to have a sane convo with an old schoolmate re ACA...  this person put a post online with a comment attached "the Facts about OBAMACARE will SHOCK YOU, it shocked me and that is why I cannot vote for Obama"  I read the post, watched the attached vid and then asked exactly what Facts about Obamacare was she specifically shocked by and got the answer "I didn't really have time to look up the specifics, a friend I trust assured me this is all true and shocking"  so I reminded this person of reagans TRUST BUT VERIFY comment and she got indignant...Luckily (for me) this persons cousin (who I do not know) got into the fray and called the video "ridiculous, at best" and with that I stepped away from the debate....    this person is intelligent but she wanted to believe what she wanted to believe about Obama and no argument was going to persuade her she was wrong in what she believed.

        I firmly believe that our best course, this time around, is to get as many of OUR voters to go out and VOTE... arguing with even intelligent people who refuse to accept facts as FACTS will get us absolutely nowhere...  America has basically made up its mind about the upcoming election and facts be damned (sigh)

        "You've got to be an optimist to be a Democrat, and a humorist to stay one" - Will Rogers

        by KnotIookin on Fri Aug 24, 2012 at 10:30:33 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  You are correct (3+ / 0-)

    I'm trying not to rant anymore but to provide information on why liberal points of view are better.  But I did rant a bit over Akin's truth telling episode.  Couldn't help that.

    I get doom fatigue all the time.  I get that with environmental headlines and don't even read the stories, and I fully support environment saving efforts.  I have also been getting a lot of impending economic collapse fatigue lately as well.  I saw someone frantically suggesting people grow and preserve their own food NOW on a liberal message board the other day and I just thought to myself, if it gets that damn bad why would I want to linger around staying barely alive on some canned food for a few more months before I was found and killed by my desperate neighbors for my last couple of servings of pinto beans or something?  What’s the point?  

    A person can start feeling frivolous for having personal interests or even laughing if it gets in your head that much.  I can’t go there.

    •  I may have mentioned (2+ / 0-)

      removing a certain part of his anatomy in one of my worst moments, but only to people who I knew would hold him down for me.

      All that repressed anger can hurt you!  I blow, then I try to figure out how to overcome this level of insanity.  Best I can figure is a really Blue Congress.

      I'm not looking for a love that will lift me up and carry me away. A love that will stroll alongside and make a few amusing comments will suffice.

      by I love OCD on Thu Aug 23, 2012 at 12:08:28 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  like all other wars, (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Did you ever hear anyone mention that slavery was not just the reason for the Civil War
    our civil war was fought over power and money.

    Mitt Romney seems congenitally incapable of inspiring people - Richard Wolfe, 8/15/2012

    by Cedwyn on Thu Aug 23, 2012 at 07:05:47 AM PDT

    •  aren't all wars? (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:

      and then they get the religions to do the fighting for them?

      reporting is reporting... and rape is rape.

      by stagemom on Thu Aug 23, 2012 at 08:08:33 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Which would have been undermined (2+ / 0-)

      severely if plantations had been forced to pay their field hands.

      I think that was in the next sentence - slavery being the economic engine our nation was founded WITH, if not on.  I'm not sure which is more accurate.

      I'm not looking for a love that will lift me up and carry me away. A love that will stroll alongside and make a few amusing comments will suffice.

      by I love OCD on Thu Aug 23, 2012 at 12:11:35 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  of course that would have undermined (0+ / 0-)

        which was part of the point; slavery is what gave the South power and money. of course they fought to preserve that.

        the south was outnumbered in congress despite the 3/5 clause and the didn't like the tariff, banking, etc. laws the northern majority was peddling.

        power and money.  all wars, always.

        Mitt Romney seems congenitally incapable of inspiring people - Richard Wolfe, 8/15/2012

        by Cedwyn on Fri Aug 24, 2012 at 07:57:01 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  I'll get back if I ever see a smart GOP (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    Living in Texas I have yet to meet anyone calling themselves a Republican that is not stupid.

    I see nothing positive in any Republican message. Maybe I missed the "we are special" part but all I ever see, read or hear is hatred.

    I guess I know too many white male Repugs  have a problem with being oppressed. They seem to think being poor, black or out of work is a gravy train.

    I like the post but I see stupid on a daily basis to be tricked into thinking these folks have a normal brain, let alone think they get it.

  •  Terrific diary - very important points. (2+ / 0-)

    I know that hopeless feeling, so your message definitely makes sense to me.

    There are many quotable quotes in your diary - I'll just pick one I liked to say thanks for an important contribution:

    Not weakness, not selling out, just an understanding that my utopian vision probably doesn't look like yours does, and you may even have a few good ideas I left out.
    If politicians could be statesmen again, perhaps a few more would think like this.

    Hm. Are there stateswomen? Or did that concept go out of style so long ago it never had to be converted to a female or gender-neutral version?

    "Maybe this is how empires die - their citizens just don't deserve to be world leaders anymore." -Kossack Puddytat, In a Comment 18 Sept 2011

    by pixxer on Thu Aug 23, 2012 at 07:47:01 AM PDT

  •  Thanks for pointing out the rampant ostrichism (5+ / 0-)

    that lives in a few of my friends and acquaintances.  They don't want to know ANYTHING!   It always boggles my mind.    They don't read about issues.   They flee from discussions of anything that hints of politics or even man made travesties overwhich they think they have zero control (like global warming)

    Quite frankly it is the ostriches that allow the vultures to feed on us.  

    "I think it is much more interesting to live not knowing than to have answers that might be wrong." Richard Feynman

    by leema on Thu Aug 23, 2012 at 07:48:02 AM PDT

    •  that last line is worth remembering /nt (3+ / 0-)
    •  That's what Team Obama found (3+ / 0-)

      when they did focus groups before gearing up messages for 2012.

      Even when people saw Mitt Romney SAY he supported the Ryan budget people did not believe any serious politician could possibly mean he'd get rid of Medicare as we know it.

      That's why it's important not to just blow them off as idiots.  These are people who can be reached, but only slowly, carefully, incrementally, and only in a safe environment.  

      It's the underpinning of this entire campaign - show people the truth, but don't shove it down their throats.   Give them something to think about and pull back for a few days.  Then a small second step, and a respite.

      Will they leap on your "truth" on day one?  Hell No.  But by week six or ten or twelve (depending on the issue) you've got a pretty solid chance of reaching them with reality.

      I'm not looking for a love that will lift me up and carry me away. A love that will stroll alongside and make a few amusing comments will suffice.

      by I love OCD on Thu Aug 23, 2012 at 12:19:52 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  our problems aren't their problems (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Keone Michaels, ssgbryan, I love OCD

    and that's the problem with this very thoughtful post.  

    How do you justify increasing the cost of electricity/gas because of regulation if you can't talk about the danger of global climate change?  How can you rebut the claim that the government shouldn't be taking people's hard earned cash if you can't talk about the stagnant wage growth for the middle class and an income disparity approaching third-world levels?  How can you preserve a woman's right to choose if you can't talk about the dangers of taking away that right?

    You can spend your life contemplating why Republican voters consistently vote against their interest (there's a library worth of books on it), but it comes down to the fact that whatever their brain chemistry and psychology is, in their world their problems aren't even things we'd recognize as problems.  And vice versa.

  •  brother-in-law railing about berkeley, ca... (4+ / 0-)

    christmas dinner...i just agreed with him, "yes, i know!"  and then added, "isn't it wonderful?  i love berkeley!"  
    not.  another.  word.

    reporting is reporting... and rape is rape.

    by stagemom on Thu Aug 23, 2012 at 08:10:19 AM PDT

  •  Singing Polyanna Doodle All the Day (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    And the winner of the Chamberlain Prize for Skillful Negotiation is ... a Tie !

    Bill Clinton for selling NAFTA to the AFL/CIO and "Ending Welfare as we have known it."

    Shares with Barack Obama for passing toothless banking regulation reforms and enacting a National Health Scheme based on guaranteed profits to private insurance companies.

    No Republicans were in contention.

    In face-to-face, one-on-one, discussions between neighbors (who have to live with each other, after all) sure, a soft word and the yielding of rhetorical ground is probably "the best policy" ... and if it is not ... well, small and insignificant as we are, -- it probably does not much matter.

    But given an Administration just chock-a-block with lawyers, professors and MBAs from Ivy League schools ... do we really think the Democratic Party LACKS for "skillful negotiators" ...  or that the White House has spitefully, begrudgingly,  prevented them from engaging with their equally well-intentioned, patriotic, opposite numbers across the aisle.

    They HAVE been negotiating.  And to get more "skillful" we'd have to get a consignment of Ministering Angels from The Throne itself ... though in the face of Republican adoration of Tax Cutting budgets and Face Grinding poverty programs -- what the Archangel Gabriel himself might accomplish sort of escapes me.

    So yeah.  By all means be nice, be reasonable, and keep the peace ... especially at our own family holiday dinners and local Town Hall meetings.

    But unless the Democratic Party comes to understand we ARE in existential struggle for the survival of the "middle" class and of representative democracy itself ... well  we really ARE all well, truly, hopelessly  and perpetually screwed.

    Hey ... a life  of "austerity and anxious obedience" isn't  SO bad, once one gets used to it.

    Q: What do you think of this man Quisling?
    A:  I don't know, I've never quizzled.


    •  Nice rant! (0+ / 0-)

      Not particularly accurate, but filled with passion, and passion always wins.  Or not.

      This is not meant to be nasty, I just want you to know what my process was in reading your comment.  "Some interesting points."  "I know much of this is inaccurate or incomplete."  "Oh God, we're doomed"  "Remember this name and don't take what he says seriously until you've had a chance to do some outside research."

      You just proved my point about gloom doom and hopelessness being really poor motivators.  

      Yes, we face serious problems.  No, it's not hopeless.  

      I'm not looking for a love that will lift me up and carry me away. A love that will stroll alongside and make a few amusing comments will suffice.

      by I love OCD on Thu Aug 23, 2012 at 12:26:22 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  You said it, you believe it, that settles it! Eh? (0+ / 0-)

        It would be a lot easier to take your personal judgements under consideration  if you actually bothered to refute what you think are "inaccuracies" ... or even bothered to identify what you think are inaccuracies.

        Look ... I agree "it's not hopeless" .  

        So far so good.  

        But it's not nearly far enough.  Got any substantive ideas about how to engage those serious problems other than adopting  more positive attitudes and being  nicer to the other side? Because, basically, that's all I can glean in the way of an action agenda in this diary.

        Just because YOU have a limited tolerance for bad news and unpleasant facts  and don't like to hear such things  -- it doesn't mean that everyone else needs to be happy-talked-down-to.

        Sure,   I can see where the less-optimistic environmental propaganda  might seem invite denial and withdrawal. The facts ARE daunting, and the opposition IS strong ... and maybe turning off and turning away is how you chose to deal with that.  

        But you'd sort of think the direct mail solicitors (on both sides and most issues) would stop spreading all these Sads amd Bummers once they saw how badly it affected their revenue streams.  But, oh, wait ... it seems to be working for them.  (And frankly,  it has worked  wonders at getting MY checkbook open for progressive Democrats  time after time after time.)

        So maybe "fear" IS a good pretty motivator, after all.  Menace of the Month seems to be working very very well indeed for the Republicans and the Religious Right -- the whole Anti-Obama campaign is based on very little else.  

        ... but YOU counsel  that we should not to do that ... that we should not even think that way ...


        I'll  just assume you mean well.

        •  I can't speak for everyone, just myself. (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          gramofsam1, Marko the Werelynx

          I don't think you can dump all over Bill Clinton for NAFTA when the actual results of that agreement couldn't be foreseen.  Dump all over it today, but that's hindsight.

          I don't agree that Obama has done nothing to rein in our financial pirates because I know he has.  His toothless regulations pissed them off so much they don't donate to Democrats anymore.  That's all I need to know.

          That awful health care stuff is changing lives already, saving lives already.  If it's also keeping the only private sector job creator in this country afloat, I guess I'll take that.  When the ACA passed the various health industries were pretty much the only thing keeping us out of the Greater Depression.  It would have been fiscal suicide to undermine that entire segment of the economy, plus most citizens didn't want it done, and it's silly to take away what a majority of citizens claim to want.  Give them the small changes to the system that will overcome their fear of Government Intervention, then add big chunks of change when they're understanding that what they have isn't all that great.

          Non-blogging ordinary citizens do not believe our health care system is floating around the bottom of the barrel.  Until that's believable, single-payer is fairy dust.

          Fear stops being a motivator for me after enough shocks to my system.  I'm done then.  I'm done with a lot of political groups right now, but I'm still a monthly contributor to Obama, and Kos, and Act Blue.  Small - I'm barely making it month to month, but I do what I can for things I believe in.  After this election, the Obama money goes to PP.

          I have a lot of ideas about what can be done to change things.  I believe President Obama is the best shot at getting those things done - green energy, green manufacturing, high-speed rail, less freeway more mass transit, less oil more wind and solar, more manufacturing here, with decent wages.  A higher standard of living for the middle and working classes.  A more level financial playing field.

          I've been able to pick up on a lot of under-the-table Obama initiatives that encourage me to believe he's the guy who can shepherd us into the 21st Century and set an agenda for other Democrats to build on.  I like how he sneaks Pell Grants into everything.  I love that he's easing regulations on small businesses.  I love the the ACA actually addresses the health needs of Native Americans, women, the elderly, children.  I love that he talks nice about drill baby drill and tightens up EPA regulations so tight the drillers are scared to go on with business as usual.  I love that he's smart enough to pimp Paul Ryan as the intellectual and financial giant of the Republican Party, then nail his ass to the wall during a major speech where Ryan's a front row guest.  I love that he takes on Citizens United in front of the Supremes, during the SOTU speech many people watched.

           I love that he says rape is rape and men really don't have a horse in this race.  I love that he turned the Religious Freedomz argument on it's head when supporting better access to birth control.  I love that he took that position the year the Republicans are trying to flush birth control and only support the religious freedomz of Catholics and wackjob Evangelicals.

          I like that unemployment kept getting extended no matter how hard the Republicans tried to kill it off.  I like that the Republicans are no longer "Stronger on Defense", or the ones to count on for national security, or the fiscally responsible party.  I love that they're mostly known for tax cuts for the wealthiest and the War on Women.  I like that "Trickle Down" is finally being seen as "I'm pissing down your neck" by long time Republican voters.

          None of those changes happened in a vacuum.  President Obama orchestrated most of them, and OWS got the 1% into the public consciousness.

          We have a better chance at getting into the 21st Century as a leading society than we've had since the '70's.  That's what we should be cheering, not fussing about negotiating instead of yelling louder, not losing our shit because change is most effective when it's incremental, and not promoting the Rovian attack on Obama as weak, effete, cold, professorial.  I can't watch him speak without knowing he'd give a shit if I was forced to live under a bridge.  That's important to me because Romney would want me to die fast and not mess up the underpass.

          I'm not looking for a love that will lift me up and carry me away. A love that will stroll alongside and make a few amusing comments will suffice.

          by I love OCD on Thu Aug 23, 2012 at 05:33:53 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Well as long as YOU'RE satisfied ... (0+ / 0-)

            with the Official List of  achievements, promises and position statements is quite "enough" ...

            I read them as being for the most part
            "well said's,  with some  "almosts ",  sort-ofs , "maybe laters" and " he wouldhave if he couldhave but they wouldn'tlethims"  made even weaker  with "the devil is in the details" fine prints. ##

            As I see it ... "half a loaf is better than no bread" ONLY if you can live on half a loaf.  (Or if you're a gluten-intolerant diabetic with a vegetable garden --  in which case "no bread at all" would be even better.)

            Still  think we can agree:  Bin Laden is DEAD, General Motors is ALIVE --

            And Ryan/Romney WOULD be inconceivably worse.

            So,  long as you get yourself to the polls and vote the straight Democratic  ticket ... I'm satisfied too.

            ##(For example:  "Banking Reform" that is "reform" enough to annoy the spiteful, selfish bastards of the last campaign's Wall Street Base ...   ... but not so much so as to bring the Markets or its abuses under much official scrutiny, much less any practical control. )

  •  Although the conclusions are different, this (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    I love OCD

    reminded me of a diary I wrote in 2008 called "My Neighbor The Republican."

  •  I appreciate your sincerity and dedication, howeve (2+ / 0-)

    I know, always mit der "however!"

    Racism, uncomprehending racism.  It is uncomprehending because it is written in their souls by their parents and the society in which they grew up.  They can't admit it and deny it because they are in uncomprehending denial.

    Racism is the first motivation of white folks that vote against their own interests in this particular case.  IMO.

    Perhaps you can't accept that, but in my opinion that is the root cause.

    •  I agree with you, we'll never move the (3+ / 0-)

      racists.  I won't even try, I just mainly congratulate them for the courage they show in bringing their racism fully into the light.  It won't change them, it might change a lurker.

      I don't fight the Koch Brothers either.  To what end?

      I'm talking about that small percentage of people who might possibly be persuadable, and the worthiness of spending time and energy persuading them if it means we take back the House and turn the Senate royal blue.

      I'm not looking for a love that will lift me up and carry me away. A love that will stroll alongside and make a few amusing comments will suffice.

      by I love OCD on Thu Aug 23, 2012 at 12:29:36 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Millions before the US joined? accuracy... (0+ / 0-)

    is important. Final Solution:

    Massacres of about one million Jews occurred before the plans of the Final Solution were fully implemented in 1942, but it was only with the decision to eradicate the entire Jewish population that the extermination camps were built and industrialized mass slaughter of Jews began in earnest. This decision to systematically kill the Jews of Europe was made either by the time of or at the Wannsee Conference, which took place in Berlin, in the Wannsee Villa on January 20, 1942. It occurred very shortly after the Babi Yar massacre was carried out and the conference was chaired by Reinhard Heydrich. He was acting under the authority given to him by Reichsmarschall Göring in a letter dated July 31, 1941
    My bolding. December 7 1941...  about four months after the July 31st letter.
    the Wannsee conference which marked the beginning of the organized focus. This was before wider awareness of what was happening which was still denied at higher levels for a long time to come. So to say that the US was a latecomer after "millions" is incorrect. There were still up to 5 million Jewish deaths to come and tens of millions of civilians and soldiers of every race, ethnic group, nationality and religion. I do not lay any blame for them at the US's door for not caring or entering the war later than it could or should have. FDR could not force the issue sooner. Isolationism was still too strong... he was preparing and making the country ready because it was inevitable the US would be involved and Pearl Harbor made it happen sooner than otherwise.

    But your wider point of just how woeful our knowledge of the darker parts of US history is is of course entirely valid. We do NOT teach our history properly and completely. Some might want to do the opposite of the "Greatest nation" whitewashed story and have little good to say and go with the root of all evil demonization version... it is harder to have a balanced and nuanced understanding of why things happened the way they happened and to realize that most of us would have believed and acted in ways we find repugnant and ignorant today had we lived back then. hopefully we will progress as a nation to learning how and why we have been able to make some progress out of the errors and mistakes of the past and that our past is neither totally good or totally bad would make our country stronger and better... not to mention better informed.

    Pogo & Murphy's Law, every time. Also "Trust but verify" - St. Ronnie (hah...)

    by IreGyre on Thu Aug 23, 2012 at 08:24:31 AM PDT

    •  Millions couldn't have been killed if (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:

      the groundwork hadn't been laid in advance, and there was a pretty clear understanding of who the targets were and what the plan was before anything was in writing anywhere.

      It's perhaps not utterly factually true but you don't kill 7 million people in 3 years without building an infrastructure that will support that kind of mass slaughter.

      My real frustration is the lockdown on immigration, well after it was clear that Jews were being targeted for extinction.

      I'm not looking for a love that will lift me up and carry me away. A love that will stroll alongside and make a few amusing comments will suffice.

      by I love OCD on Thu Aug 23, 2012 at 12:33:01 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Glad you are gettig recs. (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Mariken, I love OCD

    I've tried presenting this same approach on this site and got summarily stiff armed and/or ignored.  We need more of the "cool kids" to take this up.

    "The opposite of faith is not doubt. It's certainty."

    by Simul Iustus et Peccator on Thu Aug 23, 2012 at 08:34:34 AM PDT

  •  I've been looking for a video that highlights (4+ / 0-)

    the historical accomplishments, achievements, triumphs, etc. of the Democratic Party. I've been looking, but I haven't found one. If one exists, can someone point me to it? If one doesn't exist...well, why doesn't it?!?  Seems to me that we've got tons to celebrate, so why don't we put it out there in an attractive presentation, with patriotic music and images, etc., for people to watch and get excited about voting Democratic? Thanks.

  •  Point to emphasize is that these GOP voters (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Killer of Sacred Cows

    believe that "nothing needs changing", which includes "we don't need a black president" among other things.

    They've apparently got a world view that either the way it is, or the way it should be, are threatened by change, and that any change is all the Democrats fault as well. They thus won't acknowledge that there are things that just happen, or that their side is responsible for. Not to mention that * the way things should be* is often a very warped, racist, sexist view of the ideal society!

  •  You are totally correct (3+ / 0-)

    That's why "Morning in America" and "Hope and Change" were winning formulations.

    I'm surprised Dems don't take advantage of the American Exceptionalism thing by calling out the GOP on women'd rights by saying, "they're trying to make us more like Iran".

    Democracy - Not Plutocracy!

    by vulcangrrl on Thu Aug 23, 2012 at 08:38:12 AM PDT

  •  Thank you for this; i so needed it. (3+ / 0-)

    I think you're spot on about why some republicans vote
    the way they do, and i need to remember that
    and not become so irritated and despondent,
    [in regard to all things political.]

    We are doing Some things right--
    i need to focus on that, and spread that information.


  •  Conservatives Do Some Things Very Well (4+ / 0-)

    They know how to appeal to voters on a visceral level, even my GOP friends who have Ph.Ds. Yes, some conservatives are highly educated. I also believe that you are right that we need to talk about Obama's successes. When unemployment rate was much higher than it was in 1936, that did not deter FDR from talking about how the country was on the move again.

  •  It's marketing (3+ / 0-)

    In the industry they call it 'brand loyalty'.

    Advertisers learned to influence people to do harmful things to themselves when cigarettes were found to cause cancer, but were not made illegal.  How do you sell a deadly product to the public?

    Well, they learned pretty well on that one and now bring their services to the political parties.  

    It's not that Republicans are stupid, they are just very susceptible to this kind of marketing.

    The reason my parents vote Republican is the exact same reason they use Tide instead of some other laundry detergent and exactly the same amount of thought goes into each decision.

  •  Good diary, but no, they are stupid (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    I love OCD, Matt Z

    "Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain!"

    by jkay on Thu Aug 23, 2012 at 09:31:13 AM PDT

  •  But That was the core message of Obama 2008! (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    And that's one reason why he managed to connect with so many independents, pull so many alienated, disillusioned voters to the polls - and recruit so many previously-hope-drained activists into his campaign.

    Unfortunately, once Obama and a Democratic-majority Congress came into power in 2009, they chose to practice a minor variation on the Clintonesque approach.

    The environment, for example, could have been a classic - and critically important - area to demonstrate "Hope and Change" in action. It is one area where progressives are the ones with solutions and optimism (renewables, public-transit infrastructure, composting, local organic farming, etc.) - while conservatives are the ones coming out like negativist douchebags who don't believe in America.

    But Obama and Congress all but abandoned global warming in 2009-2011. Heck, they couldn't even get the US on board with Kyoto!

    Not to mention the continuation of mass bailouts and free passes to the financial criminals who caused the economic crisis. This was Bush's recession, there was absolutely no reason for Democrats to follow his hasty and corrupt "fixes". Politically, this has been the Democrats' single greatest unforced error since 2008.

    I totally agree that condescension towards whoever has voted Republican, or continues to vote Republican, should stop.
    I am not sure we can genuinely project a positive vision right now, when we have zero guarantees that our own party's leaders will follow up and try to implement this vision once they are elected.

    Hence, in 2012 everyone's favorite tactic is shooting the other guy down. The Republicans have always done it - and the Democrats are too jaded to repeat 2008's sunny optimism, and the opposition in 2012 is so ridiculously bad that it's hard to resist the temptation.

    •  I'd rather see Obama funding (4+ / 0-)

      alternate energy research than have him railing against the stupid.

      I'd rather see the EPA strengthened enough to make it foolish to drill cheap and fast than hear Obama rail against gas and oil.

      I'd rather have a government that's proving it works for the ordinary citizen than hear a rant about how awful the Republicans are for not doing more.

      I do not for one minute believe that the Democrats equal Republicans.  I do believe that many of them are too smart to get suckered in to "Bring it all down".  They know that the people who will be most hurt by radical change are the people we're supposed to be caring about.

      I'm a little amazed that with so many instances of Obama's Iron Fist in Velvet Glove successes there are still people who don't trust what he does because he's not punching Eric Cantor in the nose.

      A bully is a bully.  I don't like leftish bullies any more than I like rightish bullies.  

      I love watching Obama play the Republicans.  If you don't see how he does it no wonder you're pissed.  It's a thing of beauty.

      I'm not looking for a love that will lift me up and carry me away. A love that will stroll alongside and make a few amusing comments will suffice.

      by I love OCD on Thu Aug 23, 2012 at 03:53:38 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  This "iron fist in a velvet" lost Congress in 2010 (0+ / 0-)

        I am familiar with the argument.

        I admire Obama's executive ability, integrity as President, etc. etc.

        I was not talking about "rants against Cantor".

        I was talking about using the Presidential podium to change the national conversation and directly affect national priorities,

        It is a traditional role and privilege of the President, especially in times of crisis. FDR used that right, Kennedy did, Reagan did - and of course, Bush Jr. did it to focus the nation's attention on reshaping the Middle East and engaging in a "clash of civilizations".

        Obama's campaign had promised to do that, as well. I repeat: this was exactly what "Hope and Change" was about. But then, he has shied away from this role, in a time when it as as needed as ever.

        Obama promised to lead as a visionary, but has preferred to govern as a technocrat. One side-effect is the Tea Party's takeover of the narrative and the completely avoidable Republican victory of 2010.

        Another side-effect is the muddling in the public consciousness of who caused this crisis, how and why - and hence, of what the correct fixes are.

        Last but not least: the side-effect of the US once again losing sight of global warming and turning it back into a partisan mudfight - after it has achieved bipartisan status around 2007-8.

        I'm sorry, as I said I like Obama. But advocating the same tactic over again, without acknowledging that it had already been used recently, evaluating what happened to the first time it was used and what went wrong - helps neither him nor us.

  •  it is too late for your idea (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    a2nite, I love OCD

    we have multiple crises on all fronts.

    we really can't sell positivity at this point.

    humans will have to mature and be able to take the bad news and hunker down or the vast majority of us won't survive.

    childhood is over.

    rethugs aren't stupid: they are brain washed.  there is a big difference.

    i don't think it helps anyone to call them stupid.  they are selfish; they are brainwashed.

    they may not be screamingly evil in their private lives, or they may be, but they are not innocent; they are not decent.

    decency requires caring about others.

    maturity requires staring the facts in the face.

    Donate to Occupy Wall Street here:

    by BlueDragon on Thu Aug 23, 2012 at 09:49:15 AM PDT

    •  They're pretty goddamned stupid. (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:

      I see their commentaries all over the internet.

      Then, there's that Ron Paul thing...

      Bags of hammers, really.

      Stare that fact in the face.

      The path of the righteous man is beset on all sides by the inequities of the selfish and the tyranny of evil men.

      by xxdr zombiexx on Thu Aug 23, 2012 at 11:07:51 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  decency requires caring about others (0+ / 0-)

      I care from 8 am to 4 pm.

      The path of the righteous man is beset on all sides by the inequities of the selfish and the tyranny of evil men.

      by xxdr zombiexx on Thu Aug 23, 2012 at 11:08:51 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  And fear blocks maturity (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Killer of Sacred Cows

      and decency, especially when you're afraid for your near future.

      The Republicans do fear-mongering well.  Our only hope is to find the things that are working or beginning to work and sell hope as well as the Republican's sell fear.  Remember they sell fear by couching it in "we're the best" cheerleading.  

      Is it rosy?  No, how do you undo 45 years of financial chicanery in 3 years?  You don't.  So you tell people "We have the capacity to make this economy work for everyone.  Here's how."  followed by something about it will take time!

      I'm not looking for a love that will lift me up and carry me away. A love that will stroll alongside and make a few amusing comments will suffice.

      by I love OCD on Thu Aug 23, 2012 at 12:41:46 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  couple of flaws in your argument (0+ / 0-)

    Republicans constantly harp that we have the worst education system and the worst government bureaucracies.

    Just in education they lament our public schools and our universities, both public and private.

  •  This diary is assuming that many of these (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    a2nite, burlydee, ssgbryan

    Republicans are open to changing their votes, or even listening to what a liberal has to say. I respectfully disagree with that assumption.

    Let's just get this out of the way: middle- and working-class Republicans are - by definition - stupid. And often ignorant.

    For example, yesterday on NPR's latest and greatest "Let's talk to every 'jes-folks' Republican voter we can find so we can glorify Romney and bash Obama" segment, they mentioned Romney's completely bogus "work out of welfare" attacks against Obama. Ignoring, for the moment, the obvious racial undertones of these lies, Ari Shapiro (the go-to man for the above "reports") mentioned to two of the wingnuts who were just so upset about Obama's alleged gutting of the welfare reform law that the attacks had been rated out-and-out lies by several news organizations. One woman - seconds after railing about the gutting - said "Well, I don't know that much about this, but I trust Romney and NOT Obama." Another wingnut, this time a man, said "Some of those 'impartial' news organizations are actually not neutral, so you don't know who to believe."

    Try convincing the people I just highlighted - just try. The overwhelming majority of Republicans I interact with are EXACTLY THE SAME as the interviewed people - stupid, paranoid and ignorant. No amount of "smiley-washing" of the Democratic Party's message will ever change their minds. The only thing they understand is being electorally wrecked by Democrats, and the only way we do that is by telling the whole, nasty truth about what the right-wing has in store for our nation's people.

  •  On point about people (4+ / 0-)

    A lot of what people think is based on where they are.

    In the early days of the homeless shelter in my church, I noticed that the other churches of the neighborhood were all supportive, and the blockclubs were all opposed.

    I couldn't really see any difference between the membership. True, neither set was a terribly lage percentage of the population, but they all looked alike and they all seemed to talk alike -- not all the people were alike, but each slice looked about the same.

    I finally decided that these people were reacting differently when they were asked in different environments.
     "What is the Christian thing to do?" Hell, yes, they should have a shelter; really, we should have one too. Can we bring a meal once a week or once a month?
    "What is that going to do to our property values?" Hell no. We don't want people like that sleeping within a couple of blocks of us.

    Cuddling other people's babies for fifty years.

    by Frank Palmer on Thu Aug 23, 2012 at 09:57:19 AM PDT

  •  I am absolutley certain we can vote our way (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    a2nite, Killer of Sacred Cows

    out of this mess.

    Perhaps in as little as 40 years.

    The path of the righteous man is beset on all sides by the inequities of the selfish and the tyranny of evil men.

    by xxdr zombiexx on Thu Aug 23, 2012 at 10:08:53 AM PDT

    •  I'll take it! (0+ / 0-)

      That would be just in time for my kids to have a safe retirement to look forward to, and for me to die happy. I don't need everything fixed today. I just need to know that we're on the way.

      "The Democrats are the lesser evil and that has to count for something. Good and evil aren't binary states. All of us are both good and evil. Being less evil is the trajectory of morality." --SC

      by tb92 on Sat Aug 25, 2012 at 06:41:54 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Religion drives it. (4+ / 0-)

    I know what makes most people vote Republican, because I've lived in a state full of 'em all my life... and it's something we're not going to have a lot of luck cracking, I'm afraid, because it's not logic-based.

    It's religion.

    The GOP cynically and opportunistically entangled itself with Christianity until it's destroyed most of the religion and is in the process of destroying the political party.  Most of these people vote Republican because they think that's the "party that loves Jesus."  And talking sense to them isn't going to make much headway, because sense is something they've been trained to explain away so they can keep believing what they want to believe.  There's not much you can do with people who've managed to think that Ayn Rand's philosophy can work hand-in-hand with the teachings of Jesus.

    All we can really do is what we're doing now -- create a party that caters to the future and wait for the right-wing to die off from age.  This is one of those things that'll only change generationally.   And that's working... it's just slower than any of us would like.

    "Glenn Beck ends up looking like a fat, stupid child. His face should be wearing a chef's hat on the side of a box of eclairs. " - Doug Stanhope

    by Front Toward Enemy on Thu Aug 23, 2012 at 10:10:55 AM PDT

  •  I really enjoyed this. Thanks! (2+ / 0-)

    Many of today's "progressives" wouldn't have lasted in the 20s, 30s, 40s, 50s, 60s or 70s. Two years in and their thrill is all gone. Poor things.

    by PoliticalJunkessa on Thu Aug 23, 2012 at 10:11:16 AM PDT

  •  When I was a Republican, (4+ / 0-)

    back in the 80s (and don't hammer me for reminiscing about my youth because I've obviously been a liberal on DailyKos for years now...) none of that stuff about "We're the best country" stuff impressed me.  I didn't need to think we were the best.  I knew Republicans like that and I felt no kinship with them on that subject.

    But I DO know what you mean when you talk about unrelenting doom-ism.  At some point, it seems to become an addictive habit.  The people engaging in it seem to forget that they're doing it.  Pointing it out enrages them.  

    Case in point: There was a rec list diary a few weeks back that told us in the title to remember 104 degrees Fahrenheit because it was a number we shouldn't forget.  Why?  Because photosynthesis stopped at 104.  So?  The implications were apocalyptic... But like so many people here, I'm sure, I was remembering the many 104 degree days I've endured since I was a kid.  I'm not in favor of 104 degree days, but I know that number, by itself, doesn't mean very much.  A 2 degree or higher average rise in temperature -- that means a lot more for a number of good apocalyptic reasons, but it's as if that's not apocalyptic enough so we need to invent new bullshit ways to scare ourselves... and discredit ourselves in the process.

    I remember back in the early 70s when many people were scared shitless of overpopulation. The end was coming, and coming soon on the basis of exponential growth, and they had lots of graphs to prove it.  The end was expected to begin about 1984.  

    I had a teacher in a science class tell us that he wondered at times what he was going to do when the end came.  He thought maybe he would just try to help people the way some people gathered the bodies house to house during the plague.

    I don't want to argue about whether he was right or wrong and why, all that shit.  I just want to point out how I felt and what I thought at the time.  

    I thought, "He's enjoying this shit too much."

    Now, let's talk about party identification based on doom.  The facts of overpopulation or 104 degree weather etc. begin to pale in importance when instead you're looking at the kind of people and figuring out the motivations of the people that you're telling you this... and they seem like weird people who ENJOY IT TOO MUCH.  The facts might support their position, but they themselves, as people, don't seem like us, don't seem to be part of the same daily peer group of normal people that we know, seem maybe to belong to some other socio-economic class that can't know what's really important to people like me because they aren't like me.

  •  Your Diary Makes Some Good Points - And I Think (4+ / 0-)

    it helps to have conversations with your neighbors, co-workers, and others on a personal level. However, I have found that it depends on who your target audience is - having a conversation with an independent about how Dem ideas are better for them economically can be a winner - but trying to converse with a Birther? Forget about it. And to tell you the truth, I don't really want to waste my time and breath on people like Birthers who are brainwashed and unreachable. I avoid political discussions with Rethugs who have a personal animosity toward Obama, because it gets in the way of having a rational discussion of Dem ideas with them - they automatically inject their personal hatred of Obama into the conversation. I understand that a lot of Rethugs hate Obama in the same way that I despise Dick Cheney - and it's not going to change. Instead, I do an end run around the Rethug brainwashed/stupids by recruiting as many people as I can to vote Democratic - so I make their anti-Obama votes irrelevant.

  •  Diarist point - sugar vs. vinegar (3+ / 0-)

    I understand many of the comments. It is so aggravating to be confronted by batshit crazy ideas. The natural impulse is to  reply: "Uh no. The world is not, in fact, flat" with a tone of impatient superiority.

    But if we consider that our broad objective is to try to change the hearts and minds of Republican voters, then it makes absolutely no sense to be confrontational and angry. Sure, our arguments may only register with a paltry percentage of the individuals we interact with, but if we can persuade a single "low information" voter to vote Democrat or dissuade them from voting reflexively for the name next to 'Republican', then we have doubled our electoral efficacy.

    A good friend of mine has recently declared his conversion from Rep to Democrat. He is a man of impeccable intelligence and ethics who was simply raised as a Republican.. He explained his conversion by explaining that it was an aggregation of factors over time which led him to reassess his political identity.

    I didn't get into the nuts and bolts of his conversion, and I don't know which of the many events and epiphanies he experienced over the progression of time were critical in pushing him over into our column. I suspect the key elements of such a conversion is different for each individual. However, I am positive of one thing. A individual is less inclined to embrace the world-views of someone who just called him a "dumbfuck"...

  •  This diary makes a critical misconception (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Robobagpiper, ssgbryan

    that many like minded diaries make.  This diary takes the way people speak about Republicans on the internet, and mistakenly leaps to believe that people interact with Republicans in their personal lives the same way.  In truth, because 99% of people would like to avoid needless conflict, people tend to be very passive or understanding when confronted with Republicans or tea party types in their personal lives.  I suspect that many of the biggest smack talkers on this site don't actually interact with many of the people they are talking smacking about.  They live in urban enclaves where they are unlikely to meet a teabagger in his or her natural habitat.  Which means their internet insults have little to no effect on the way Republicans think.

    I live in a red state.  As a person who works with the community, I often hear the beliefs, opinions and fears of the people we need to reach (or think we need to reach - I think more effort should be made to pull in non-voters myself...).  I don't run off angry when someone says something I disagree with.  I don't start lecturing and moralizing.  I'M NORMAL JUST LIKE YOU.  Your interactions with tea party types I believe are representative of 99% of liberal - tea party interactions.  People aren't fighting in the streets.  I say the two groups (liberals and tea partiers) have more of a quiet contempt.  Indeed, in most places I live and breathe, tea partiers are the majority; they are the ones snorting with condescension when you bring up global warming.  The ones angrily blaming Obama for everything from rising gas prices to a war on Christians and Wall St.

    You purport to understand tea party types, but in many ways you are very condescending as well.  You don't give them the credit to actually believe what they are saying.

    If I had to single out a defining trait of the tea party mind is that it refuses to accept responsibility: for the welfare of other people; for the infrastructure of the nation; for the mistakes the candidates they've supported have wrought on the country; and, ultimately, for the very politicians and ideas they support.   Republican politics is about shifting the blame.  Its about never admitting you're not #1, and when you have to admit, blaming it on someone else.  I think Republican politics is beyond rational, witty interactions and one liners at the supermarket.  There is really something in the inner mind Republican politics talks too.  Some sore of self-affirmation that allows the voter to support politicians that tell them what they want to hear even if the results prove plain as day not to work.  I don't think you can confront such willful ignorance with a feather.  You need a sledgehammer.  

    •  You're both right - because you're talking (2+ / 0-)

      about different populations.

      The diarist isn't talking about hard-core conservatives or tea partiers, but rather is talking about soft conservatives.

      Non enim propter gloriam, diuicias aut honores pugnamus set propter libertatem solummodo quam Nemo bonus nisi simul cum vita amittit. -Declaration of Arbroath

      by Robobagpiper on Thu Aug 23, 2012 at 11:06:16 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  It's not about changing the party, or the (2+ / 0-)

      religions, or the Tea Party.  I'm not a fan of wasting time and energy on people who are batshit crazy.  I don't sponsor newcomers to AA who think it's okay to drink on weekends, or weed isn't going to hurt them.  I have compassion for them and I hope they don't die before they get it, but they don't get my energy and time.

      I don't have a Planned Parenthood sticker on my car because I play the organ at a Catholic Church and that's provocative enough to undermine anything I might be able to say about the importance of Planned Parenthood's health services to women who have no other alternative.  I'm not fighting Catholics on abortion, it's stupid.  I am willing to point out that the people who oppose PP have done nothing to help the millions of women who will lose diagnostic and treatment services if PP is underfunded.

      That's caring for the sick and showing compassion for the poor, and that's doctrine.  I tell them that abortion is too personal an issue to be politicized this way, and that IMO men can rant all they want as soon as they're the ones whose bodies are at risk.  Until then I don't really care what they think.

      I'm not looking for a love that will lift me up and carry me away. A love that will stroll alongside and make a few amusing comments will suffice.

      by I love OCD on Thu Aug 23, 2012 at 01:03:07 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Makes sense (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    I love OCD, Marko the Werelynx

    and certainly there is plenty of room for improvement in the crappy arguments that Democrats make for their policies.

    We even see it here.  Medicare/Social Security/regulations/environmental protect/what have you are sacrifices we must make in order to be nice to the less well off.

    Wrong.  Social Security is not just a nice thing we do for old people.  It, like infrastructure, education, health care, and a justice system, along with all the other stuff I listed above, is a BENEFIT to the whole economy, and something that makes life better, not just for the elderly, but for everyone.

    Education does not just benefit me because I go to school, or my kids do.  It strengthens the whole economy, and makes my life better.  It is a networked good/increasing returns type of economic interaction:  we all better off if (and only if) we're all better off.

    The Corporate/Conservative argument isn't just mean.  It's bad economics.  Rand and all the Chicago School so-called classical economists are just plain wrong, and have been proven wrong every time their ideas have been implemented, and not just by the Bushies.

    Now the challenge is to break through the training that many Republican voters have been given.  On Fox Noise and other outlets, they have been carefully trained in techniques that block these and any other reasoned information from penetrating the solid wall of bullshit that they hide behind.  Largely, these techniques amount to their being assholes, and it takes lots of patience and care to wade through the shouting, insults, and fingers stuck in their ears and start to get through to them.  Once we do, it's still a mess as it is hard for them or anyone else to admit how wrong they have been for so long about so much.  Here the message is that their only bad choice was who to listen to . . .

    Frustration is high.  Victories are rare.  But the stakes are higher and it has to be done.

    Keep at it, people.  And when you do get through, give us all a lift by telling us about it.

    In Washington, whenever anyone does something wrong, everyone else gets punished.

    by Noziglia on Thu Aug 23, 2012 at 11:13:28 AM PDT

  •  Back in 2008, during the primaries, an in-law said (3+ / 0-)

    "I hate Hilary Clinton".  So I asked her why she hated Hilary.  She pondered a moment and then said "I don't know".

    This is a good illustration of most people's reactions about many or most subjects.  Our feelings about stuff are formed subconsciously and seldom does logical analysis or consistency have much to do with it.  In the case of the Hilary hater, she probably had heard a lot of negative comments about Hilary Clinton from various conservative sources, especially Fox News, and all of those messages created a negative impression, without her making an effort to really understand what Hilary Clinton really is like.  An image was created.

    Most persuasion in modern America is not rational consideration, but marketing.  In fact, this has always been the case throughout history.  But after many decades of mass media advertising and persuasion, marketing has become much more powerful, and there is much more conscious use of image creating techniques.  Understanding our large complex society is much harder than marketing or believing images.

    I just hope that our society can get out of this marketing trap to really deal with our problems.  What I am afraid of is that the only way some of the images can be questioned is if disaster happens.

    "The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt." Bertrand Russell

    by Thutmose V on Thu Aug 23, 2012 at 11:25:55 AM PDT

  •  People who recognize that others are laughing at (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Killer of Sacred Cows

    them suddenly go silent. Will they vote smart [i.e. vote in their best interests], probably not. Will they vote at all? Hopefully not. I don't think they will change their minds. They just aren't capable of it.

    Keep in mind we are talking about 28 - 30% of the voting population.

    Bring those still in Afghanistan home NOW . . . It's long past time.

    by llbear on Thu Aug 23, 2012 at 11:54:05 AM PDT

  •  Actually, Bonanza (2+ / 0-)

    unwatchable as it is today, was politically ahead of its time.  E.g.:

    Death on Sun Mountain
    The Cartwrights go up against two San Francisco men who plan to get rich by killing off the antelope herds--which the Indians rely on for their food--and selling the meat to Virginia City's swarms of gold miners.

    The Fear Merchants
    The Cartwrights come to the aid of a Chinese-American stable hand accused of murder. Opposing them is a manipulative mayoral candidate who wants all "foreigners" to leave Virginia City.

    I can remember Little Joe taking his Shoshone girlfriend to a dance.

    The "invisible hand" doesn't regulate the market - it wanks it. -- SantaFeMarie

    by Dinclusin on Thu Aug 23, 2012 at 11:59:11 AM PDT

  •  Ayn Rand & L Ron Hubbard: Funny (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    I love OCD

    If you haven't seen this take 5 minutes and watch.  It's pretty funny.

    Can't we just drown Grover Norquist in a bathtub?

    by Rezkalla on Thu Aug 23, 2012 at 12:37:10 PM PDT

  •  Great diary, thanks. (2+ / 0-)
  •  I am more (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    I love OCD

    convinced that the situation might be reversed this time. Everything is upside-down in this election. Nowhere in the current Republican rhetoric, do I hear any notes that sound positive or forward-looking. Of course they could put on a big act at their convention, but thus far, the President seems to be the only one reminding people that we have to move forward, face our challenges together, and that our best days are ahead of us.

    Now, whether one subscribes to the idea of better days ahead or not, it has a unifying effect.

    "In the depth of winter I finally learned that there was in me an invincible summer."- Albert Camus

    by valadon on Thu Aug 23, 2012 at 01:09:53 PM PDT

  •  I've been trying a more positive approach ... (3+ / 0-)

    ... by talking about how things are turning around under Obama and how we don't want to go back to the ways that got us into that mess.

    I don't know yet how successful I'm being, but it makes for less negativity.

    "The fears of one class of men are not the measure of the rights of another." ~ George Bancroft (1800-1891)

    by JBL55 on Thu Aug 23, 2012 at 01:10:01 PM PDT

  •  The Democrat's core message is: We're fucked, ... (0+ / 0-)

    Couldn't agree less.

    •  That's an overstatement, (2+ / 0-)

      but it's how it's too often heard by people outside our circle.

      We know we aren't saying that, like Greenpeace knew it was fighting like hell to save the ocean.  Unfortunately, after predictions of doom hit my gut too many times it's easier to give up and accept that we're this epoch's dinosaurs.

      There's a way to couch the messaging that isn't hair on fire, and NRDC does it very well.  Why can't we learn to do the same?  

      I'm not looking for a love that will lift me up and carry me away. A love that will stroll alongside and make a few amusing comments will suffice.

      by I love OCD on Thu Aug 23, 2012 at 04:00:06 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  we are learning (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Killer of Sacred Cows

        I think we are finally a real match for the republican political machine - the one HUGE FUCKING weakness is the whole voter fraud/ID battles, in which the Obama admin is essentially snoozing as their lunch is getting eaten and it makes no GODDAM sense that they are not ALL OVER THIS SHIT. If the election is lost, the post mortem will be centered on this one factor alone, and at this point I think we'll be having that post mortem... and it's just damn SAD.

        But, on a calmer note, I agree with your comment, although I have to say comparing the democratic party - the majority political party whose modern form stems back 2 generations +  to Greenpeace is possibly a tad of a reach (even as I admire Greenpeace in most things). So I think we need to internalize the best of the democratic ethic and make it our message, and try better to, no DO it better and MAKING the message rather than being the victim of it, and that's all I hear in "The Democrat's core message is: We're fucked, ..." We ought NOT even type these words. OK, I fixed my all caps key and i'm signing off :)

  •  they want to vote for their interests alone (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Killer of Sacred Cows

    It's voting for anyone else's interests that they refuse to do, to the point where they won't vote for something that's in their own interest when it's also in someone else's interest.  They're so consumed by the Republicans' zero-sum you-against-the-world framing that they cannot believe that different entities - individuals, groups, states, countries, etc. - have have common interests and goals.

    It's not as though life in some whistlestop in farm country or a half-dead Rust Belt mill town is so much better than life in the urban ghetto, but talk about policies to fight poverty, improve education, create jobs, etc. and all they hear is "minorities in the big city getting free stuff".

    To those who say the New Deal didn't work: WWII was also government spending

    by Visceral on Thu Aug 23, 2012 at 01:33:06 PM PDT

  •  Overestimating GOP voters now...? (0+ / 0-)
    •  No, more the people who vote (2+ / 0-)

      GOP without really thinking about why.  Hard-core supporters are not malleable.  The people I'm talking about are the once who, as I said, can't really articulate why they vote R, they just think Republicans are "like them" and "share their values".

      Pretty clear that unless they're billionaires that's not true, but they have been sold pretty well.

      I'm suggesting we figure out how to sell our vision that well, and bleed off the voters who can hear what we're saying.

      I'm not looking for a love that will lift me up and carry me away. A love that will stroll alongside and make a few amusing comments will suffice.

      by I love OCD on Thu Aug 23, 2012 at 04:03:56 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  • (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    MKSinSA, I love OCD

    is an available domain name.

    Wouldn't it be great to get it and get it to show up whenever someone Googles republicans??!!

  •  Here's what's right with America: (2+ / 0-)

    The social safety net we've built through the hard work of generations of Americans, designed to protect both communities and individuals. We can keep making it better rather than trying to destroy what makes us great. We can expand it to fully cover our health needs. We can expand support for new technologies that will grow new jobs and solve climate problems.

    We're also a nation with a history of fighting the hard, uphill battles to right our wrongs, from abolition to women's suffrage to civil rights. We did this in the face of great adversity that still exists and is very well funded, and that adversity can still be overcome with our collective hard work and dedication to civil society. We can do better, and can be even greater still.

    I like the way you think. Great diary.

    "Nach dem Spiel ist vor dem Spiel." ~Sepp Herberger

    by surfbird007 on Thu Aug 23, 2012 at 02:12:19 PM PDT

  •  Ha! Not stupid! Hilarious!!! (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Killer of Sacred Cows

    Go to Twitter and look up the hashtag "blessObamasheart" and then you'll see why I'm cracking up. Most days there are similar trending tags.

    I often try to debate these people and I've discovered that if you say, "Would it bother you if Gates' wealth ever exceeded $500 billion?", then these people will actually take issue with the question. I even tried it at $500 TRILLION. In one case the guy said, "$5 trillion, lol, that's a bit extreme," but then "but why should how much Gates or Oprah makes bother me?"

    Best of all, whenever I just lose it and call them names or worse, they all say, "oh, so classy and dignified; just like a tolerant liberal." as if THEY are so the opposite, yet 98% of their comments are so disrespectful and crass about POTUS and FLOTUS, like making fun of MO for being a bully and wanting to be the center of attention all the time vis-a-vi when she was on Jay Leno.

    Their ignorance/stupidity knows no limits!!!

    •  I don't hang with those people (2+ / 0-)

      unless I think I can shove a spoke in their wheel for a minute or two.  And I don't bother trying to reason with racists, bigots, homophobes or sexists.  It's silly.

      What I do try to do is talk to people who are, perhaps, suffering from the endemic racism/xenophobia that runs like a toxic river through our culture.  They aren't blatant racists, they don't wear hoods or burn crosses, they just have those ugly images the media has presented as "blackness" raising little blips of fear.

      I have that endemic racism in me.  I'm not proud of it, but I'm not dishonest about it either.  It's the shadow side that needs to be brought into the light and that will never happen unless I own it and cop to it.

      I didn't particularly like the idea of homosexuality in my early years.  It wasn't "normal" in the world I was raised in, and I carried all the silly prejudices I picked up unconsciously until I was actually old enough to think that shit through.  I was helped immensely by gay and lesbian friends who were out and proud and who didn't mock me for being so backward and ignorant.  If they'd shamed me or shunned me I don't think I'd be a rabid supporter of equality today.  I'd have retreated into hurt and anger.

      I hope to be the same kind of midwife to people around me who need some new ideas.

      I'm not looking for a love that will lift me up and carry me away. A love that will stroll alongside and make a few amusing comments will suffice.

      by I love OCD on Thu Aug 23, 2012 at 04:15:20 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Love your thoughtful diary (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    I love OCD

    Wholeheartedly agree.  Had the same issue with NRC NC. Wilderness soc. etc-   It is too much otherwise to be negative about the future   I do it too sometimes.  My husband just doesn't want to hear the negativity sometimes.  A story of success. Of something that made a difference.  How cool and inspiring is that!!!

  •  I first heard of the Japanese-American internment (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    I love OCD

    from an episode of Lou Grant, of all places. Probably when it first aired and I was a teen. Learned much of the rest in school, but I am a product of upper westside Manhattan progressive public education (red diaper baby country) so there was considerable academic focus on American misdeeds. At least until I entered  one of the specialized High Schools which was more broad based.

    Very insightful, logical points. If we can't learn a way to reach these some of these folks with the truth there's no way out of this mess.

    I just read a piece about Chris Hedges (can't remember where). I wouldn't dare to dispute any of his political observations. Apparently he has a new book out and that's the subject of the article. Good for him. When reading one these stories, I'm always looking for suggestions. Okay, Chris, you've nailed it with The World As It Is. What do we do? From the article (would link if I recalled), the gist was to keep hopeful, accept your powerlessness and above all be peaceful when beaten down. Perhaps a hint to leaving the grid. Not very encouraging. I want ideas. Solutions. Answers.

    I like this article because it presents some I haven't stumbled upon or thought of before. Thx.

    I just flushed my Ronald Wilson Reagan Exclusive Economic Zone. Whaddya know, trickle down theory actually works somewhere.

    by cal2010 on Thu Aug 23, 2012 at 03:39:33 PM PDT

  •  there are a few thousand GOP voters... (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    I love OCD

    ...who aren't stupid. These are the selfish, greedy, unprincipled, vain, ultrarich who have largely bought much of the government and would like to bring their ownership up to 51% this election cycle. At that point, they won't drown the government, they will simply turn more directly it to their uses.  At that point, the "no new taxes" pledge will be forgotten.

    Mitt Romney is one of those people.

    fouls, excesses and immoderate behavior are scored ZERO at Over the Line, Smokey!

    by seesdifferent on Thu Aug 23, 2012 at 03:58:15 PM PDT

  •  In my view they are aberrations of evolution. NT (0+ / 0-)

    I dont really care how you frame it the truth still is the same. No matter how big our flags or how great we LOVE America!  They will still be what they are. Very few change. I was once a republican cause it was christian to be republican. My parents are lost to Obama is the Antichrist view of reality.  You pst he is a secret Muslim.. Jesus would not want to help everyone crowd.  

    "We need a revolution away from the plutocracy that runs Government."

    by hangingchad on Thu Aug 23, 2012 at 05:15:48 PM PDT

  •  I agree with you (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    I love OCD

    I always voted but never paid attention until after Bush got in, then after years and years of hearing negative stuff and feeling stressed by politics I backed up and did nothing for awhile.

    Now I am back involved but not as much as before as its totally because the more involved I get the more depressed I get or angry.

    We really need to change our messaging, I have thought this for years. The other side does a much more effective job. We may be right but our methods are not making us hopeful and happy.

  •  "There is nothing wrong WITH America... (3+ / 0-)

    ...that cannot be cured by what is right IN America." President Clinton made that statement, which resonates not just with your diary, but with the optimism that a lot of Americans--even and especially hurting ones--feel ABOUT America.

    IMO, President Obama is echoing Clinton's message, but sadly, Obama's message is being drowned out by the right-wing-controlled media and the billions of "dark money" dollars that are paying for it... :(

    Seen on Facebook: "Rich people are not the cause of a robust economy, they are the result of a robust economy."

    by boofdah on Thu Aug 23, 2012 at 06:17:38 PM PDT

  •  As I wrote to several friends in response... (0+ / 0-) this thoughtful diary:

    IMO, President Obama is echoing Clinton's message, but sadly, Obama's message is being drowned out by the right-wing-controlled media and the billions of "dark money" dollars that are paying for it.

    I Love OCD's diary resonated with me as well, but perhaps in a somewhat different light. In short, it simply disappoints me that so many of my fellow citizens--who are so quick to tell their "lessers" to toughen up and pull themselves up by their bootstraps--are themselves so childlike and fragile that they need to be coddled and babied in the ways that the diary advocated. I secretly often wonder if the McCain campaign guy who made the "nation of whiners" comment in 2008 wasn't spot-on in a way.

    Why is it always about us "feeling good about ourselves" as a country, with or without our difficult circumstances? I'm sure "Dr." Laura Schlessinger, from a conservative standpoint, would tell us to buck up and face the unpleasant music of our past mistakes as individuals. Why should it be any different from a liberal perspective when it comes to our past mistakes as a collective whole?

    I've been in the unemployment boat, and it sucks, royally. It's frightening--and no overbloated CEO in the world can tell me they know all about the feelings of "uncertainty" if their corporate taxes are going to be raised 3 percent when there's the very real uncertainty that one can't pay his or her rent or put food on the table if a job can't be found.

    We aren't rich by any means, but (Mr. Boof) and I were incredibly fortunate not to suffer many of the layoff blows that affected millions of Americans in the late Otts. I still remember, though, how it felt, and I would never wish that very real turmoil upon any of my fellow Americans, even if they were to vote Republican in November. That being said, it doesn't take a super-altruist or Mahatma Gandhi type to look outside one's insular sphere and take a look at how their personal decisions affect the whole community--the whole society--the country, the world.

    Is that really too much to ask of our fellow Americans this November? I hope to FSM I'm making sense.

    Seen on Facebook: "Rich people are not the cause of a robust economy, they are the result of a robust economy."

    by boofdah on Thu Aug 23, 2012 at 06:30:26 PM PDT

    •  I'm really not talking about (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:

      coddling.  It's more about treating people as though they're not evil fascists until you're pretty sure they are.  

      Voting for Republicans doesn't automatically mean you're a fascist.

      I think this post was too long, and got skimmed too much or something.  

      I'm not looking for a love that will lift me up and carry me away. A love that will stroll alongside and make a few amusing comments will suffice.

      by I love OCD on Thu Aug 23, 2012 at 08:50:52 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  It is about Character (0+ / 0-)

    In the last 50 years America has changed. I grew up being taught that the most important thing in a politician was his Character. One may vote for Stevenson but one still respected and admired Ike. That is the way people were. Now people voted for Gearge Bush who used political pull to get out of going to a war he supported. 50 years ago he could not been elected Dog catcher. The main difference is that if Mitts father would have been elected one could still admired him for being a man of charater. The difference is the difference bwtween the generations then and now. George Bush and Mitt Romney are men of proven low character. When you vote for them you are really showing the importance of character in your own life. America has been going downhill not because character of its leaders but the character of those who vote them in

    Join the War on Thinking. Watch Fox News- John Lucas

    by Jlukes on Thu Aug 23, 2012 at 06:30:31 PM PDT

  •  In the US, most tribes prefer to be called Indian. (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Killer of Sacred Cows

    Rather than Native American or the ever rarer First Nations.

  •  I agree that messaging is important (0+ / 0-)

    and that the way we address "the other side" must account for the possibility that anyone can change.  But I dont agree that we will gain much except a little relief from that growing ulcer.  Thats because I dont agree that we are a nation of independent actors making decisions based on some set of ideas or concepts that we each hold individually.  I believe that the whole Teabagger thing is a culmination of a focussed and deliberate set of actions coordinated and set in motion by a very few princes and principalities - the most wealthy and powerful of our planet.  With nearly unlimited funding and unfettered access, a small group of people prepare messaging and control outcomes so that they can secure power and develop a world that they want.  They use religion, they use the media, they use our educational systems and they use governmental influence.  Sounds sinister doesnt it?  But consider for a moment that most financial institutions and large multinational corporations can be tied back to only a few large conglomerates.  Sitting at the top of those, are people that deal in power.  We act in large part, as pawns in their game.  We use the "right kind" of toothpaste, eat the foods we are told are good for us, we believe in the things we are taught from birth to death.  We are made, not born, to our "gut" reactions.  Cycles of life - attending sunday school, going to company outings, attending the right kind of weddings, going to the PTA, etc. etc. are all orchestrated activities of our existence meant to stabilize communities while the world spins thoughtlessly into new normals.  Lets take abortion - the fight for unborn children as we are now told.  Yet there is no fight for children already born.  The many that die of hunger, drone strikes, war, disease.  I believe this is because the cause is one of power, not of life. But ever so slowing attitudes are shifting toward acceptance of this messaging (based on US polls from 1990 to 2010).  So my reactions are not - the GOP is stupid or that Romney voters are voting against their best interests.  We have been acting against our best interests for a long time. No, instead my reactions are simply the rage against the machine.  Maybe this doesnt go very far to convince others, but will we convince them in the face of such an existential rewrite of our own freedoms to think and live?  And certainly I admit to being a part of this machine.  But, I think that it does exist.  Our society has given over its future in the same way that great societies of the past have.  The difference is that now we have the technology to truly do damage.

    So it is in some small way like taking the blue pill.  I cant blame folks for wanting to stay in the dream world, but  I do think it threatens the very existence of our species in the end.  You see, it is the end game that I am mad about.  The idea that if we follow, we will all be safe, happy, and controlled.  This is the underlying gambit being played on our behalf.  And I for one, do not believe.  

    •  Well the scenario you describe (0+ / 0-)

      pretty much means it doesn't matter what anyone says or does, we're little cogs in the machine and nothing will change that.

      I don't believe that, or I wouldn't be here.  I'm sorry you do, it sounds grim.

      I'm not looking for a love that will lift me up and carry me away. A love that will stroll alongside and make a few amusing comments will suffice.

      by I love OCD on Thu Aug 23, 2012 at 09:13:55 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  What you described... (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Killer of Sacred Cows

    are stupid people.

  •  Yes they are (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Killer of Sacred Cows

    While I agree that a deprecating message to a well-intentioned Republican won't get anywhere in convincing them to vote for Democrats, there are abundant evidence that Republicans, as a group, are indeed stupid. They might be quite smart in the sense of being street-smart to benefit themselves but they are not smart in the area of knowledge.

    Firstly, a Pew poll in 2009 found that only 6% of scientists are Republicans while 55% are Democrats. 81% of scientists are Dem/lean Dem and only 12% are Rep/lean Rep.

    That either means Republicans don't have the average (or above average) mindset to become scientists or that once a person learns enough to become a scientist, he will be repulsed by the ideas put forth by the Republican party and quits.

    The other symptom of the differences between Dems and Republicans that you observe is that Dems tend to communicate negative messages while Republicans make positive promises.

    While I agree that Dems tend to melodramatize and accentuate the bad news, that phenomenon also reflects the scientifically-based, problem-solving mindsets of Democrat vs the unquestioning believer/follower mindsets of Republicans.

    A Dem, as a problem solver, lives in the real world and tries to apply practical, workable solution to a problem when he sees a problem. That's why he tends to describe the problems in details to make sure that everybody understands what the problem is. That makes it look like he wallows in the mud of that problem and is defending the sources of that problem.

    A Republican, on the other hand, imagines a world of perfection, a pie-in-the-sky world where everything goes exactly as he wishes it to be. Therefore, when he sees a problem, it is considered as a flaw in his perfect world and his solution is to denounce and/or destroy it. It does not matter to him that the denouncement/destruction won't make anything better, he's only interested that he is on the right side, believe in the right thing and, hopefully, one of these days the pie-in-the-sky will actually fall on his lap.

    Let's consider some of the problems and the Dem/Rep solutions for them:

    - Unemployment
    Dems know that unemployment is inevitable. The Fed itself never wants unemployment to go under 4% for fear of overheated economy and increased inflation. Therefore, the Dem solution is to provide asocial safety net to those who are unable to get a job without blaming them for what is the country's economic  plan the first place.
    Reps see unemployment as a flaw in their perfect world so they denounce unemployed people as being lazy and want to cut off any benefits they get to push them into working as if a world of 0% unemployment is possible or even desired.

    - Abortion
    Dems want to reduce abortion by understanding the root causes of abortions and alleviating those causes, empathize that no woman is happy to have an abortion just because it's legal to do so and, therefore, when circumstances force a woman to decide on an abortion, Dems want to provide a safe environment for them to prevent a bad situation from getting worse.
    Reps, again see abortion as another evil, another flaw in their imaginary perfect world so they want to ban anybody they perceive as participants in the evil deeds, even to the point of killing doctors.
    But since they ignore the biggest cause of abortion: poverty, when they were in power during Bush II, abortion rates actually jumped in urban areas.  However, they don't really care about the results or what will happen to the unwanted children who were forced by the law to be born, they only care for the fact that they are standing on the right side and oppose the evil side.

    etc. for all problems from crimes to illegal immigration to the trickle-down economic theory (or the "everybody could be super rich if we let the super rich to become super super rich" theory)

    When a person applies pie-in-the-sky solutions to all the problems he sees and never checks to see those solutions ever work or not, I call him stupid as an objective scientific observation.

  •  Very Good Points (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Amber6541, Killer of Sacred Cows

    I'm often overwhelmed as well.  I also get dozens of begging e and snail mails a week.   I feel guilty because I can't give to all the people who more and more are populating the street corners begging for money for food.  I can't stop global warming.  I can't stop citizen's united.  I can't stop voter fraud by voter suppression.  It's all too much but as much as I would like, I also can't go back.  There is no "Way Back" machine to America the Beautiful because it never was.  Ozzie and Harriet were not real.  Norman Rockwell paintings aren't real life and never were.  No Virginia there is no secret Santa.  There are times I want to give up but I don't.  I just can't.  There is a saying that we don't own the Earth we are just borrowing it from our children and I shudder to think at the mess we are leaving it to them in.  

    A bad idea isn't responsible for those who believe it. ---Stephen Cannell

    by YellerDog on Thu Aug 23, 2012 at 09:18:52 PM PDT

  •  They're just sandbagging. These racists are set .. (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Killer of Sacred Cows

    ... on Making the White House White Again.

    That's all that matters to them.

  •  ALL VOTERS ARE STUPID! When will you people (0+ / 0-)

    realize this? Not one voter in 200 can identify policies that advance their own interests, ann then figure out which candidate will best advance that policy.

    In the voting booth, image and marketing trump everything else 10 times over, especially in the presidential election.

    If you want to engage just-plain-folks Republicans, it's best to remember that you're just a stupid Democrat. I usually start by telling them that. And unless they start in with birther/no-birther bullshit ("no-birther" is shorthand for Akinism), I only argue image, not facts. ("Can't trust Romney, he gives Obama all this grief about his health plan, and he did the same thing in MA!" "Democrats do more for the working people than Republicans." "Republicans just start wars so their buddies can get richer. You can bet if Romney wins we'll be in a war in a year.") The one fact I DO use, and that everybody knows is true, is that the recession started two or three months before Obama took over.

    As one dumb Democrat to another--good luck!

    Two hundred million Americans, and there ain't two good catchers among 'em. --Casey Stengel

    by LongTom on Fri Aug 24, 2012 at 03:28:41 AM PDT

  •  The lesson of Lance Armstrong (0+ / 0-)

    We need a new heroic cause. We need to be comfortable with the idea that Americans aspire to greatness and be comfortable with the legend of our past achievements.

    In light of Lance Armstrong's fall this morning, we can find a lesson there. He has tainted his heroic comeback from cancer, with his cheating. The thing is, though, you'd be hard-pressed to find a Tour de France competitor who wasn't using EPO. The achievement should stand - the heroic nature of what he accomplished is still impressive, if understood that way.

    On the other hand, if he'd finished 10th in the Tour, but done it honestly, that would have been even more impressive, even if no one would have taken notice. The trick would have been to sell THAT story.

    We need to sell a new heroic story -- to give the country a new cause: A Manhattan Project-level commitment to heading off the worst of potential global warming, and ultimately to reverse it. Similarly, to cure our politics of the abuses from too much money in the system, and from the politicization of voting itself. These need not be "progressive" causes. These should be the next great American missions.

    Coming Soon -- to an Internet connection near you:

    by FischFry on Fri Aug 24, 2012 at 07:19:58 AM PDT

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