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In 2008, the Republican Party was fleeing in disarray from a catastrophe of its own making, and for the first time since 1996 a Republican presidential nominee was basically abandoned by his party's power structure to win or lose on his own merits.  As usually happens when Republicans are judged in the cold light of reality, the guy lost in a landslide.  That is not happening this time around: As worthless and despicable a lowlife as Mitt Romney clearly is, the GOP has no intention of allowing this election to be a straight-up contest between candidates - Romney is merely the tiniest pinprick (emphasis on "prick") on one head of the entire oozing, tentacled corporate/GOP hydra that is once again slouching toward Washington to reclaim the office it considers to be its property.  

This colossal, lurching monster - fed by an almost limitless, internationalized resource base stolen from basically all the people of the world in the late financial crisis - has spent billions of dollars and countless hours of corrupt media agitprop since 2008 to create the pretext for what they intend to do on November 6th, and these people are not accustomed to investing on mere hope.  When this much money is on the line, they've proven time and again that they consider elections too important to leave up to voters, and our confidence in the outcome of the legitimate vote has blinded us to the historically-proven threat of something very different than an election occurring on Election Day.

There seems to be an attitude on the part of a painfully large number of people among us - which I understand, but can't possibly condone - that if the process is already so corrupt that we can't guarantee the legitimacy of the result, that we have already lost and should not bother thinking about how to respond in the aftermath of a fraudulent outcome.  With that mentality, we might as well draw Republicans a map telling them how to guarantee their desired outcome, because the only way we're willing to fight them at all is if they abide by the rules.  "Now, I'm warning you, Republicans - if you rig the election, I'll pout and whinge and implicitly endorse it by posting petulant 'Americans Are Stupid' rhetoric to make myself feel better, then vacate the field so you can get busy wallowing in your spoils.'"  The people who got away with stealing trillions of dollars, plotted the invasion of Iraq, and ordered the use of torture must quake in their boots when they see so many of us broadcasting that message.

That is not a sustainable approach to democracy: At very least the active portion of the citizenry has to be aware of and prepared to combat threats to its rights, not only before and during elections, but after - in fact, perpetually.  This is not a game, and there is no point, ever, where you are required to walk away or submit to anything that is unconscionable.  Republicans spend so much time and money seeking to control the electoral process through state offices and voting machine companies because they know how many of us are infected with the authoritarian impulse to submit and go home the instant someone with a nameplate declares on official letterhead that the Republican has won.  Game over.  Nothing to see here.  Better luck next time.  Too bad, so sad, buh-bye.  

They know a lot of us live in a state of denial about their depravity and ruthlessness, and that we desperately want to believe that winning the support of the American people just automatically translates into achieving office.  The thing is, democracy is not - and never has been - built on other people respecting your rights: It's built on you defending yours while respecting theirs, regardless of what they do.  You create (or destroy) democracy every moment of your life in the way you choose to respond to events - it's not something you inherit, and it's not something that requires the permission of those who have never and will never understand it.  Without being prepared to back it up, all this GOTV and campaigning would make about as much sense as joining a gym while being a heroin addict - a vain, farcical act of self-delusion on the part of someone not willing to confront the real challenges before them.  We must acknowledge that the integrity of the process depends on us, not the other way around, and be prepared to put forth the increased effort needed to reflect that fact.

Understand, this is not some nebulous expression of concern: The machinery of tyranny being deployed today by our opponents makes that of 2000 and 2004 look quaint, and while our own information weapons are far more evolved today than back then, we're still missing the big picture - or more precisely, the way that control of the small picture (e.g., who programs the vote tabulating machines, and who certifies the outcome) is a fulcrum to far larger consequences.  Ensuring the integrity of the fundamental process should be sine qua non, but instead we treat it like a dubious afterthought tainted with conspiracy theory rather than a fact of life repeatedly hammered into our consciousness by recidivist Republican thieving.  

There's really no excuse to be shocked at this point.  As far as I know, no Republican official in this generation has ever been sent to jail for election fraud, and no official result favoring a Republican has ever been overturned, so why would they stop - in fact, why would they fail to double-down and become even more brazen?  To think otherwise flies in the face of everything we've observed about them, everything we know about criminal behavior, and every fact of human psychology.  They have means, motive, opportunity, and a virtual guarantee of getting away with it based on historical trends, so go ahead and tell me that the people behind the Iraq War and the financial con job that nearly destroyed the American economy will refrain from rigging voting machines they own because it would be too logistically difficult or their conscience as Americans would prevent them.  Also feel free to tell me that anything we're doing right now would preemptively detect such an effort and stop it from happening.

We all acknowledge that the GOP will perpetrate some level of organized election fraud on November 6th - a few local manifestations have already been exposed (e.g., the registration suppression plot in VA), and they're already demonstrating that GOP officials are organized behind the effort.  That is how bald-faced it already is, weeks before the big day: A Republican official is caught destroying voter registration forms and arrested for multiple felonies, but the Republican-controlled state election board that would have to pursue prosecution refuses to do so.  So do not underestimate how brazen the Republican offensive on our democracy will ultimately become.  

Given what we saw in the Wisconsin recall - dead-even exit polling when the polls closed blowing up into a 7-point Walker lead within half an hour of official counting commencing - we should be prepared for the possibility that they'll simply try to overwhelm us by going insanely big.  I'm not saying that is going to happen, but it would be the most devastating to Democratic morale, provide the strongest possible media pretext for wall-to-wall propaganda drowning out the facts of what is going on, create the most pressure for Democratic candidates to concede quickly, and impose the highest barriers both legally and in public perception to pursuing recounts, investigations, and legal action.

Republicans often use this tactic of behaving so outrageously that they shock their opponents into total disarray and helplessness.  It's the basic theory behind the "blitzkrieg" concept of warfare - to attack so quickly, so brutally, and so overwhelmingly that there is simply no time for an enemy to even psychologically come to terms with what they are experiencing, let alone mount an effective counterattack.  They apply the same principle to economics, which is the origin of the Shock Doctrine approach to imposing radical corporatist policies that would never otherwise be tolerated.  Mitt Romney has already demonstrated the campaign aspect of the principle to some extent, telling so many lies, so frequently, that there is an active attempt to short-circuit people's ability to make sense of what is going on.  But that's just the tip of the iceberg.  

Scott Walker demonstrated how effective the principle can be when deployed in election fraud: If you're going to rig a result, it's more powerful to be totally outrageous and implausible when the public isn't prepared for it - the crime is so brazen that no one dares to even mention what's right in front of their faces; the media declares Game Over; the opposing candidate instantly finds themselves abandoned, labeled a Loser, and told to concede quickly to avoid further disgrace; and by the time cooler heads have a chance to organize inquiries, the public has by and large moved on, and cocktail circuit pundits dismiss even obvious questions as "sour grapes" by deluded partisans unworthy of coverage.  

This is perhaps the answer to the question of why dictators "reelect" themselves in ludicrous unanimous votes rather than trying to craft some plausible facade of real democracy - it's not about convincing anyone that they've actually been elected, but about totally smashing the will of those who oppose them by behaving with absolute impunity.  They say, "Not only do I rule, but I rule so absolutely that I can stage this farce where I rub it in your faces, and there's nothing you can do about it."  The exact same people who organized Walker's response to the recall are now deeply involved in funding and coordinating the Romney campaign, in addition to numerous other wealthy interests of equally low reputation and deep criminal background.  So we have to be aware of this possibility on a visceral level, and prepared to make an agile transition to acknowledging and responding to it even though we were hoping to avoid such a thing completely.

When the Romney campaign claims that they believe they're going to win 305 electoral votes, I want to believe that they're just blustering or delusional - after all, there is no numerical basis for such a claim in any polling that isn't total fiction - but organizationally we have to deal with the possibility that they have the resources in place to produce just such a ridiculous outcome, or at least something close to it.  People in our line of politics have to learn not to be shattered by the unexpected and the egregious, but to expect only what happens and respond with aplomb rather than forever being plankton jerked hither and thither by pundit narratives and nebulous  perceptions largely under the control of our enemies through media ownership.  So I want to set the following guidelines moving forward:

1.  Unless you're part of the President's campaign staff, do not place too much emphasis on opinion polls, whether encouraging or discouraging.  The only polls to be concerned with are unadjusted exit polls on the day of the election - actual voters saying how they actually voted, not "potential" or "likely" voters discussing their intentions.  Keep track of these polls as Election Day proceeds, and be very careful about what sources you trust for describing what those poll results are - just because someone says an exit poll said thus-and-such doesn't mean it did.  Furthermore, disregard "adjusted" exit polling when official returns start coming in and are fed back into the model: This is a particularly Orwellian practice that basically amounts to rewriting history to fit official declarations - "Oceania has always been at war with Eastasia," and exit polls have always correctly predicted whatever elections officials claim the outcome was, etc.  International election monitors use unadjusted exit polling as one of the strongest bases from which to determine the legitimacy of outcomes, so there is no excuse to pretend that it's all some abstract exercise with no meaning.

2.  Report and document all difficulties with voting to the relevant officials, to the Obama campaign, and to this community.

3.  Photograph your completed ballot before turning it in.  Most people at this point have phones capable of doing so.  There are no guarantees, but this might in some contingencies provide useful statistical information about the actual vote.

4.  In the event the official results favor Romney, don't panic.  Don't give up.  Don't tune out.  Don't turn into a helpless, whining infant bitching about your fellow Americans in total ignorance of whether or not their will was even involved.  Do not act like a Loser.  Do not waste your time listening to or parroting prefabricated media narratives designed to discourage, demoralize, and confuse you.  Do not tolerate people who do any of the above in this or other communities upon which the democratic process ultimately depends, including high-level officials.  Remain focused, seek facts, ask questions, communicate with the campaign, and if you have the slightest doubt about the legitimacy of the result - any result, from the top of the ticket down to the most local races - ask your candidate not to concede until more is known.  Hound them not to concede: It's your election to concede, not theirs.

Now, I want to be absolutely clear about this: Republicans can win legitimately - it's just a testament to their tyrannical culture that that's often not good enough for them.  Given what we've already seen of their wantonly criminal, if not frankly treasonous behavior this election season, it would be very difficult to know even if they had won legitimately.  But the only way to assure the quality of the result, whatever it is, would be thorough preparation not only to detect and prevent acts of election fraud but to respond quickly and assertively when they are "successfully" perpetrated.  And, of course, to accept it if the facts point to a legitimate Republican victory despite all their shenanigans.  

Nonetheless, it must never, ever simply be treated as the default assumption that people whom we observe constantly trying to sabotage democracy have won legitimately simply because their officials, their voting machines, and their media say they've won.  If a result doesn't pass the Smell Test, we don't swallow it until we have concrete answers, period.  

As I've noted before, what exactly it would entail to deny recognition of an official result is unclear - it would be uncharted territory, especially if any of our more influential candidates, let alone the President, agreed.  I have enough faith in myself, my fellow Democrats, and my fellow Americans to say that we would find our way even in that murky situation.  The main thing is simply not to lose your head no matter how disheartening the official outcome is - not to dance on puppet strings all the way to Loserville like we have in the past, and like they undoubtedly would expect us to again if they attempt another coup like 2000 or apply the same tactics used in the Wisconsin recall to multiple swing states on 11/6.

Now, that doesn't mean we won't officially win - after all, I have no knowledge one way or the other whether, how, and to what extent the Obama administration is monitoring and plans to fight the vast and multi-layered Republican effort to rig this election.  I know they've fought to overturn superfluous and onerous voter ID laws that have been enacted simply to reduce the number of minority and low-income voters, but beyond that the information hasn't reached me - for instance, I don't know what kind of statistics they intend to compile on the Election Day to verify the plausibility of official, computer-tabulated results.  That should be the first line of defense, not the last: If you can't verify the final count - at least probabilistically - then who is and is not allowed to vote doesn't really matter, does it?  

Even total suffrage with universally adequate and equal resources made available to every district would be a farce without some reasonable guarantee that what came out the other end of the process was a function of what went into it, not some directive from GOP headquarters to its loyal servants who own, program, and operate the vote counting machines.  So I'm not claiming to be in possession of a crystal ball or have insider knowledge of the GOP: I can only say these things because I've observed their overall behavior for over a decade, and the pattern has been consistent - they're not a political opposition, they're a criminal organization seeking the demolition of our republic and society so they can collect the wreckage as loot.  Nothing more, nothing less.  And they behave accordingly.  Isn't it about time we behaved accordingly with our understanding of what they are and how they intend to operate, at least being prepared for their worst efforts?

Anticipating a likely objection, I'm not saying we are "doomed" - quite the opposite - and anyone who thinks that is the message of this diary has badly missed the point.  We can't maintain any kind of effective action if it's all based on some shallow, manic-depressive cycle of becoming enthusiastic when we're told to do so then retreating in a demoralized funk when we're told to do that.  I'm saying two things of seemingly opposite importance that actually add up to the same message of empowerment and freedom: If Barack Obama mopped the floor with Mitt Romney, our victory would still not be secure; and if Mitt Romney or any other sociopathic douchebag like him rode into the White House at the head of a tank column and declared himself Caesar, our defeat would not have been decided.  You shape the reality of this country with every moment that passes, in every decision you make, and your freedom is not measured by what events happen to you, but in how you choose to address it.  

Be prepared for Obama to win handily; be prepared for Obama to win by a close margin; be prepared for a wave of right-wing terrorist attacks and an even greater flood of petty crimes against Obama supporters to follow an Obama victory; be prepared for Mitt Romney to win legitimately, as unlikely as that seems; be prepared for Mitt Romney to be declared the winner through election fraud; be prepared for the media to be directly accomplice to a fraudulent Republican result; be prepared to be embarrassed and disgusted by the weakness, blindness, and confusion of your fellow Democrats if such events unfold; and be prepared to flip the lights back on if the worst happens, and in untrembling voice say "No.  This is what's going on, this is what I'm going to do about it, and this is what you're going to do about it if you're worth your salt."  Be prepared for what happens, nothing more, nothing less.  In other words, be a thoughtful and constructive agent of history, not a passive product of it.  There is no other requirement to being a progressive, and no possibility of calling yourself one without meeting it.  

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Comment Preferences

  •  Are Exit Polls Being Conducted in All States? (12+ / 0-)

    I thought I'd heard that it won't be done in a number of places.

    We are called to speak for the weak, for the voiceless, for victims of our nation and for those it calls enemy.... --ML King "Beyond Vietnam"

    by Gooserock on Wed Oct 24, 2012 at 04:35:23 PM PDT

    •  No, at least not by AP (11+ / 0-)

      We may have democracy, or we may have wealth concentrated in the hands of a few, but we can't have both. - Former Supreme Court Justice Louis Brandeis

      by RageKage on Wed Oct 24, 2012 at 04:38:44 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  That's very bad. (12+ / 0-)

        Hopefully something can be organized to replace the major media exit polls.

        Voter suppression is treason.

        by Troubadour on Wed Oct 24, 2012 at 04:44:26 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  I (9+ / 0-)

          am scared and I don't know why.

          "There are four boxes to use in the defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, ammo. Use in that order." Ed Howdershelt

          by Lava20 on Wed Oct 24, 2012 at 04:55:40 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  The antidote to fear is thoughtful action. (13+ / 0-)

            It's not my intention to make anyone afraid - in fact, it's the opposite.  If the result were both negative and dubious, I don't want people turning into decapitated chickens - I would want us to remain a coherent, effective political force that has the focus and foresight to know where to go from there.

            It's always frightening when we realize a problem is - or might be - bigger than we believed, but don't let it trip you up.  GOTV, public information, donating, it's all important, and America would be no less screwed if Mitt Romney won legitimately than if he just pulled his own election results out of his ass.

            Voter suppression is treason.

            by Troubadour on Wed Oct 24, 2012 at 05:26:41 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  I (8+ / 0-)

              just wanted to comment on the always superior quality of your writing.

              Still not sure what to do.

              But either way, until Romney calls to congratulate Obama, I will continue my efforts to GOTV.

              Is that bad?

              "There are four boxes to use in the defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, ammo. Use in that order." Ed Howdershelt

              by Lava20 on Wed Oct 24, 2012 at 05:36:28 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  No Lava, its not bad! Your doing what you CAN do. (5+ / 0-)

                And bless your for doing it!

                I am nervous too. (who isn't) but I am also feel pretty good. We have fought and won often and recently. We have a much better idea of what their game is and where they are likely to pull it.

                The thing I will be looking at with the rigging of machinery out there is that it is not everywhere. By watching for the signs we may see where it is most likely and work bit by bit over the years to weed those districts out.

                Pulling up one of the maps with info on where the paperless machines are is useful. Focusing election monitoring on those areas seems smart to me.

                Here is one site that you might look at.

                http://verifiedvoting.org/

                .....it's on the table, under the watermelon she demurred. Thanks, I was planning on shaving anyway he replied.

                by pdx kirk on Wed Oct 24, 2012 at 06:28:41 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

              •  We obviously need to continue GOTV. (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Steve Canella, glitterscale

                In fact, in most people's cases - I admit - nothing I said should change anything they're doing or how they're feeling.  I just want them to have in the back of their minds, not a fear or anxiety, but an awareness of a possible contingency so that they could respond effectively to negative events rather than being wrecked.  I'm still very optimistic, I'm just also aware that things can go wrong and it would be up to us to remain focused in that case - the media certainly wouldn't be spearheading any inquiries into irregularities, and our candidates would need our strong and immediate support if they were going to do so.

                Voter suppression is treason.

                by Troubadour on Wed Oct 24, 2012 at 07:06:55 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

          •  Well you would be after reading that (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Lava20, Troubadour, CoyoteMarti

            For if there is a sin against life, it consists perhaps not so much in despairing of life as in hoping for another life and in eluding the implacable grandeur of this life. - Albert Camus

            by Anne Elk on Wed Oct 24, 2012 at 05:57:36 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

        •  it's up to US to organize exit polling in those... (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Troubadour, glitterscale

          ... states.

          I'd be interested in that list of states, and an any reasonable analysis of why exit polling might have been canceled.

          I smell a rat, but the antidote to rats is to plug up the holes through which they get in, and since rats are scared of bright light, to keep the bright lights on to keep them away.  

          WE can organize exit polling in those states.

          What does it take?  Two people per polling station.  Clearly we have enough campaign volunteers to be able to do that.  

          Is it going to cost money?  WE can cover the costs.  I was just talking with a friend about this, and he was proposing we do just this:  organize, collect funds, and reimburse costs, to get complete exit polling coverage.  

          Since this exit polling is going to be conducted by Democrats, we need totally transparent process.   For example the tally sheets we use need to be under video surveillance at all times, and every interview needs to be recorded.  For this we have camera-equipped cellphones, and should have enough backup batteries to make it through the entire day.

          Next thing we need is a parallel reporting and tabulating infrastructure, and this too should be transparent and able to be watched by voters.    

          Ideal case, we create something as close as possible to the kind of voting and tabulating system we would like to see in place nationwide for elections:  tabulate the exit interviews on paper with the interviewees watching, and do the count transparently and reproducibly.  

          We can do this.  All it takes is the will to organize it, and a day's worth of volunteer time from a bunch of people nationwide to carry it out.

          "Minus two votes for the Republican" equals "plus one vote for the Democrat." Arithmetic doesn't care about their feelings either!

          by G2geek on Wed Oct 24, 2012 at 09:58:56 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  Do those states... (0+ / 0-)

        ... have e-voting machines or not?

        E-voting machines are easier to rig.

        I'm sick of attempts to steer this nation from principles evolved in The Age of Reason to hallucinations derived from illiterate herdsmen. ~ Crashing Vor

        by NonnyO on Thu Oct 25, 2012 at 01:58:55 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  how in the world can they stop exit polls? (10+ / 0-)

      it's an invitation to steal an election.

      •  they haven't (7+ / 0-)

        As I commented elsewhere, it'll be cool if Obama wins Utah or Romney wins D.C., but it's not really the main event.

        Besides, if you're one of those who believes that the exit polls prove that the 2004 election was stolen, then (1) you're wrong and (2) it doesn't seem that the exit polls were very useful.

        Election protection: there's an app for that! -- and a toll-free hotline: 866-OUR-VOTE
        Better Know Your Voting System with the Verifier!

        by HudsonValleyMark on Wed Oct 24, 2012 at 04:42:36 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  There's no connection (8+ / 0-)

        Look -- based on exit polls, Al Gore won Florida handily...but he lost...and there was no investigation.

        Exit polls are interesting, but they aren't evidence of anything -- and they would never be used that way.

        If we're relying on exit polling to have some reassurance about the legitimacy of the vote count, we're in big trouble.  We should have some way to verify the vote -- an automatic and independent tally..that is, two ways of counting the same votes...different machines and technology. Then, of course, hand recounting if there's a question raised by a disparity there.  We're not there yet, but exit polls aren't a useful check.

        Coming Soon -- to an Internet connection near you: Armisticeproject.org

        by FischFry on Wed Oct 24, 2012 at 05:36:22 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  sure, margin of error and all that (4+ / 0-)

          but a wildly divergent result would be a flag that something was up, whereas with no exit polling you can't tell a thing.

          •  I don't think either half of that is right (0+ / 0-)
            but a wildly divergent result would be a flag that something was up

            Again: the exit poll projections said that Kerry won Minnesota, New Hampshire, and Pennsylvania by 14-15 points each, and New York by 31 points. Does any knowledgeable political observer really think that that is anywhere near correct? I mean, there were a bunch of double-digit discrepancies, and arguably in every case, the exit poll result was ridiculous. How useful is that as a "flag"? The true believers can talk about the science until they're blue in the face, but science uses data, and the data say, "pshaw." This is true no matter what one believes about fraud in any particular contest.

            whereas with no exit polling you can't tell a thing.
            Why not? In Ohio, every vote cast will be recorded on either a paper ballot or a voter-verifiable paper record, which is the ballot of record in a recount. So, if you want to do election protection in Ohio, you have to think about the paper. It freaks me out how few people who are worried about Ohio seem to think about the paper, at all.

            (There are states where every vote is recorded on a full paper ballot; there are other states where there is no voter-verifiable record at all.)

            Election protection: there's an app for that! -- and a toll-free hotline: 866-OUR-VOTE
            Better Know Your Voting System with the Verifier!

            by HudsonValleyMark on Wed Oct 24, 2012 at 08:14:44 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Interesting thing about that (0+ / 0-)

              Here in MO we have the option, touch screen or fill in the ovals and then let it record. But on the occasion when they have done recounts (iirc in WI) they just ran the oval filled ballots through the reader again. Now why they didn't use the paper ballots I don't know.

              American Television is a vast sea of stupid. -xxdr zombiexx

              by glitterscale on Thu Oct 25, 2012 at 02:10:06 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  good question, or I think 2 questions (0+ / 0-)

                In many jurisdictions voters have the choice of paper ballot or touch screens, with or without paper records (depending on the jurisdiction). There are some jurisdictions where a lot of people choose the touch screens. That can be unfortunate, especially if there are no paper records.

                (To be cheerier about the ones that are verifiable, it's sort of nice if they work well enough that people want to use them, instead of being a system of last resort for people who for various reasons don't do well with paper ballots. But paper ballots are better for verification than printed paper records in a bunch of ways -- how much so depends on the system.)

                Some jurisdictions do hand recounts of paper ballots; some do machine retabulations; some allow either one. I don't think retabs are totally useless, especially if different machines are used, but I surely don't support them.

                In the WI Supreme Court recount, IIRC, some of the scanned ballots were hand counted, and others were rescanned, depending on the original equipment. Again IIRC, one kind of scanner relied on a memory card or stick, and they didn't want either to obliterate election records (the cards/sticks as of election day) or to require municipalities to obtain new ones, if that was even possible.

                Election protection: there's an app for that! -- and a toll-free hotline: 866-OUR-VOTE
                Better Know Your Voting System with the Verifier!

                by HudsonValleyMark on Thu Oct 25, 2012 at 03:40:34 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

        •  Exit polls vs vote tabulation (8+ / 0-)

          I was a volunteer for the Kerry campaign and was canvassing in Florida the night of the election. I remember that the Ohio exit polls indicated that Kerry would win and then the polls closed.

          Shortly after, the vote numbers flipped and Bush was declared the winner. To this day I think the fact that there was such a discrepancy between the exit polls and final vote numbers did not pass the smell test and I was incredibly frustrated when no recount or challenge was posed.

          Several years later - when the exit polls in the Ukraine did not match the final vote count - the Republican administration, and other prominent Republicans like John McCain, were up in arms because the exit polls "proved" that Viktor Yushchenko was the true winner of the presidential election even though his opponent, a government official, was declared the winner. In fact, Yushchenko challenged the result, which started the peaceful Orange Revolution which ultimately ended with his being confirmed the winner.

          I thought it was hugely ironic and hypocritical that the Bush administration pointed to the exit polls as proof that the vote tally had been tampered with.  

          •  dunno about that (0+ / 0-)

            Here is McCain's statement on the election in Ukraine.

            Some things it says:

            ...Reports indicate that the presidential election was marred by widespread balloting irregularities, state media bias, government interference against opposition candidates, disruption of campaign events by government authorities, and other problems....

            The Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe (OSCE), which observed the Ukrainian election, called the process 'a step backward from the 2002 elections,' and said that the campaign 'did not permit fair conditions to all candidates to convey their message to the electorate.' In addition, the International Republican Institute (IRI), which deployed staff during the campaign and a team of monitors during the election, reported that 'a systematic and coordinated use of government resources on a national scale created an atmosphere of intimidation and fear designed to pressure people into supporting the government-backed candidate.' IRI found problems with voter lists, unfair practices in the creation of election commissions, and credible reports of voter intimidation.

            It doesn't refer to exit polls, at all. Maybe McCain said something on a talk show somewhere, but it wasn't a focus of his message, or of the Bush administration's, or of OSCE's.

            Election protection: there's an app for that! -- and a toll-free hotline: 866-OUR-VOTE
            Better Know Your Voting System with the Verifier!

            by HudsonValleyMark on Wed Oct 24, 2012 at 08:21:49 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

        •  Actually they DID do a couple of investigations (0+ / 0-)

          and got a couple of different results, iirc. Remember the infamous hanging chads? And dents, dimples etc.?

          American Television is a vast sea of stupid. -xxdr zombiexx

          by glitterscale on Thu Oct 25, 2012 at 02:07:42 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

  •  speak for yourself (11+ / 10-)

    "We all acknowledge that the GOP will perpetrate some level of organized election fraud on November 6th”

    I refuse to be a party of this defeatist attitude which is NO different than the GOP birthers.  People who whine and complain without a shred of proof about losing...before they lose.

    If you believe Bush stole the election of 2004, you are as anti-American as the people who think Obama wasn’t born in the US.  You think this country is so pathetic to be nothing more than a 3rd world dictatorship where elections are rigged and people who are not eligible to win the Presidency actually win it.

    Sad.

    •  eh, I wanted to rec this (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      StellaRay

      I don't think it's "anti-American." I just think it's effing muddled -- and, in some people's hands, annoyingly arrogant to boot.

      Election protection: there's an app for that! -- and a toll-free hotline: 866-OUR-VOTE
      Better Know Your Voting System with the Verifier!

      by HudsonValleyMark on Wed Oct 24, 2012 at 04:43:29 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  First of all, they've already committed (12+ / 0-)

      some organized election fraud, as discussed in the affair in Virginia and recently revealed about Indiana (if I understand correctly).

      Secondly, I didn't mention 2004.

      Thirdly, if I had mentioned 2004, your idea of how "pathetic" our country would be if that were the case has no bearing on the reality of whether or not it occurred.

      Deal with the facts or be dealt with by them.

      Voter suppression is treason.

      by Troubadour on Wed Oct 24, 2012 at 04:46:50 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Hmmm... (0+ / 0-)

        Y'know, there is a consensus opinion that Mayor Daley rigged  the 1960 election for Kennedy -- that Nixon would have won in Illinois and won the election if only legally cast votes were counted.

        So, what does that say about trusting the Democrats?

        There is all kinds of voter registration fraud and absentee ballot fraud -- and the GOP doesn't have a monopoly on it. We do need to find a way to fix that -- and to find a way to count the ballots which will satisfy al but the most paranoid CTers.

        I don't like the way that the GOP is trying to suppress the vote, but do you think there aren't Dems out there trying their own dirty tricks? How about the letters from Seattle to Southern states that seemed to target Republicans with messages about voting fraud?

        Coming Soon -- to an Internet connection near you: Armisticeproject.org

        by FischFry on Wed Oct 24, 2012 at 05:53:25 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Not true about Kennedy. Damn sure not a (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          G2geek, Troubadour, burlydee

          consensus.

          •  What is it with the folks in this diary? (0+ / 0-)

            THe conspiracy theorists think it's OK to dish out HRs like candy, every time someone expresses an opinion you don't agree with?

            Check the rules -- they exist so that we can have a civil community. if you don't want to abide b the rules, go find another website.

            Coming Soon -- to an Internet connection near you: Armisticeproject.org

            by FischFry on Wed Oct 24, 2012 at 08:02:24 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

        •  1960 was over half a century ago. (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          chuckvw, G2geek

          There is no remaining equivalency between what Democrats and Republicans do.  The GOP is a criminal organization, period.

          Voter suppression is treason.

          by Troubadour on Wed Oct 24, 2012 at 07:58:39 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  I agree that we absolutely should demand (0+ / 0-)

          that voting be as open and as transparent as possible and enough of the states rights crap on this issue. (Which may need to have an amendment or it maybe that the civil rights voting act be restuctured.)  I believe that voting should be easy (and has some weekend time allotted to it) and registration easy and addresses be verifiable. If you, like Mitt, have 7 or more houses you get to pick one as primary and that is open and transparent and if you suddenly claim a residence elsewhere ALL of it should be transparent. If you have a po box, then the po box is associated with your address in the data base. Some provision for homeless folks should be made so that they can use a shelter address. ANY requirement for voting should be transparent and costs absorbed by the state. i.e. if the states require id, then the states should provide id at no cost to the citizen and give the citizen ways to get said id either on line or have transportation provided.

          Felons who have served their time should be restored to their full civil rights.

          If touch screens are used, (which I think is okay if there is a paper ballot,) or tally machines that tally up ovals recounts should be done by using the paper ballots and not by just redoing the tally process and not by relying on touch screen data. AND before each and every election, machines and how they work should be tested out thoroughly in each area that has a different ballot. Absentee ballots, provisional ballots should be tallied and the tally should designate their provenance. If an absentee ballot is requested but the person votes in person, some ability to cancel out an absentee ballot must be created. A sample ballot should be mailed to each citizen 2 weeks before voting day so that they have time to do due diligence and figure out how they want to vote.

          American Television is a vast sea of stupid. -xxdr zombiexx

          by glitterscale on Thu Oct 25, 2012 at 02:28:51 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  Hide rated for calling the diarist anti-American. (14+ / 0-)

      Even Senator Joe McCarthy only went as far as saying "un-American".

    •  My apologies, I did mention 2004 in passing (3+ / 0-)

      but I did not in fact assert that it was fraudulent.  I have serious doubts about the legitimacy of the 2004 outcome, but those doubts can't be addressed one way or another because no one bothered to address any of the concerns expressed at the time - which was partly because of neurotic reactions like yours.  If your default assumption is that people who have proven themselves capable of anything and bitterly hostile to democracy won legitimately, then you're part of the problem whenever that's not the case.

      Voter suppression is treason.

      by Troubadour on Wed Oct 24, 2012 at 05:32:15 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Uprating for undeserved hides (1+ / 2-)
      Recommended by:
      jeff in nyc
      Hidden by:
      arendt, Broke And Unemployed

      Coming Soon -- to an Internet connection near you: Armisticeproject.org

      by FischFry on Wed Oct 24, 2012 at 05:47:11 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  The hides are deserved. And you deserve one too. (2+ / 1-)
        Recommended by:
        Broke And Unemployed, howarddream
        Hidden by:
        FischFry

        Bush stole 2004 the same way the SCOTUS stole 2000.

        If you don't know that, you don't really belong on this board.

        Troll.

        •  Well, if I "deserve" one... (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          jeff in nyc

          If I "deserve" one for saying a hide was undeserved, then you surely deserve one for the personal attack.

          Read the rules....dick.

          Coming Soon -- to an Internet connection near you: Armisticeproject.org

          by FischFry on Wed Oct 24, 2012 at 06:06:33 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  You read the "someone else's house rule" (0+ / 0-)

            If you disagree, that's fine, but no need to troll  and start piefights.

            "I read this- Atlas Shrugged by Ayn Rand. I read every last word of this garbage, and because of this piece of $#!^ I'm never reading again!"-Officer Barbrady

            by Broke And Unemployed on Wed Oct 24, 2012 at 06:11:25 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  I did neither (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              jeff in nyc

              I happen to agree with the commenter's view that the diary is blatant conspiracy-mongering -- but that's neither here nor there. I think he was being unfairly hit with hide ratings. It is not unusual to post a comment explaining that you gave a rec to balance out an undeserved hide rating. I've seen that done hundreds of times. It's not trolling to do that. Nor is it starting a pie fight. Just because two of you responded to my comment by hitting me with hide ratings doesn't mean that I am the one starting a piefight. Look in the mirror.

              Coming Soon -- to an Internet connection near you: Armisticeproject.org

              by FischFry on Wed Oct 24, 2012 at 06:27:23 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

        •  The rules for hide ratings (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          jeff in nyc
          To Troll Rate something has exactly one meaning. When you Troll Rate something, as a trusted user, you are stating that the comment should be made invisible to all site users. You're saying that the comment is so bad -- so disruptive or damaging to the community -- that it isn't worth even a debate, but should be deleted from the discussion as being simply inflammatory, simply off-topic, or simply a lie. Remember that, because that is the only use of the troll rating. It is an editorial vote to delete a comment from the conversation. Conversely, there is one particular reason troll ratings should never be used: to express disagreement with a poster's opinion.

          Do not troll rate people for expressing a contrary opinion, so long as it is expressed in a civilized fashion.

          It is abusive conduct to give hide ratings because you disagree with the expression of opinion -- even when that opinion is a difference of opinion on whether a hide rating for someone else was deserved.

          There are consequences for your abuse of hide ratings.

          if your definition of obvious and egregious is not the definition used by the rest of the community or by the site administrators, expect your rating ability to be suspended.
          While it is tre that I gave you a hide rating -- it was not for a difference of opinion or even in retaliation for the one you gave me -- which is also prohibited. I gave you one for the unprovoked and totally baseless personal attack.
          Do note give retaliatory troll ratings. If you get what you believe to be an undeserved troll rating, do not retaliate. Leave it to others to decide if the rating was abusive. It is begrudging community practice to respond to an undeserved troll rating by troll rating the ratings abuser, thus reducing their own level of "trustedness" and making them less able to abuse ratings in the future. But don't do it unless you are absolutely positive the original rating was abusive -- and I mean 100% positive.
          I'm 100% positive. You attacked me personally and called me a troll for simply stating that I didn't think another comment deserved hide ratings -- and, by the way, my original interpretation is correct. It was abusive to give out hide ratings because you were upset with the comment. It was a valid opinion, albeit expressed with excessive vehemence. For what it's worth, some of us agree with Markos' negative view of the type of conspiracy-mongering that the commenter criticized. Perhaps 'un-American" was over the top, but the opinion was worthy...and anyway, you can't give out hides because you disagree.

          Coming Soon -- to an Internet connection near you: Armisticeproject.org

          by FischFry on Wed Oct 24, 2012 at 06:23:30 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Oh! That's what HR means. (0+ / 0-)

            I really had no idea.  I've minimized posts before because they were too long, so for easy scrollability.  I am not a "trusted user", so it makes no difference, but I didn't know that's what that meat.

        •  Up-Rated for Retaliatory HR. (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Broke And Unemployed, bythesea

          I miss Speaker Pelosi :^(

          by howarddream on Wed Oct 24, 2012 at 06:30:58 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Uh-oh Arendt might HR you for that (0+ / 0-)

            What am I saying? Arendt only HRs comments s/he finds disagreeable.

            Might add that Hannah Arendt was far more open to contrary views.

            Coming Soon -- to an Internet connection near you: Armisticeproject.org

            by FischFry on Wed Oct 24, 2012 at 08:10:16 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

      •  .....and this isn't a hide-worthy comment either (9+ / 0-)

        There is nothing in this comment that's HRable. NOTHING.

        You all can't seriously be proposing that all the people who uprated a questionably rated comment deserves a hide.

        Gosh, I forgot how ridiculous this community gets sometimes.

        P.S. I am not a crackpot.

        by BoiseBlue on Wed Oct 24, 2012 at 06:22:00 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Uprated for bad HR's even though I wouldn't have (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        BoiseBlue

        uprated the comment above that FischFry did.  Everyone should chill and not fall into flinging pie.

      •  wow, this is confusing (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        BoiseBlue

        I'm not uprating the insult -- although there sure isn't any consistent pattern of HRing insults on this issue -- but I don't think the opinion that an HR is undeserved should be HRable except in really extreme cases.

        Obviously this is just a mess.

        Election protection: there's an app for that! -- and a toll-free hotline: 866-OUR-VOTE
        Better Know Your Voting System with the Verifier!

        by HudsonValleyMark on Wed Oct 24, 2012 at 08:32:48 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  What in the world is HR'able (0+ / 0-)

        about this comment??

        •  Well, I posted that comment before I (0+ / 0-)

          realized that fischfry is handing out hr's in violation of the rules - both retaliatory and against a user with whom s/he is involved in an active dispute..

          I also would hr that user's comment about Mayor Daley stealing the election for Kennedy, since it's a straight-up right wing talking point, but I'm not getting involved in handing out ratings in this thread. Seems ill-advised.

      •  whoa everyone: back away from the keyboards! (0+ / 0-)

        Retaliatory HRs are a violation of site rules.

        There are a whole bunch of HRs in this thread that really need to be removed, before a bunch of folks lose their ratings privs.

        "Minus two votes for the Republican" equals "plus one vote for the Democrat." Arithmetic doesn't care about their feelings either!

        by G2geek on Wed Oct 24, 2012 at 10:07:50 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  Then I'm glad you think I'm "Anti-American". (8+ / 0-)

      I live in Ohio and saw what happened in 2004. I am entitled to my opinion, and you are wrong for saying that I'm not.

      "I read this- Atlas Shrugged by Ayn Rand. I read every last word of this garbage, and because of this piece of $#!^ I'm never reading again!"-Officer Barbrady

      by Broke And Unemployed on Wed Oct 24, 2012 at 05:57:53 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  11 people thought this was a good comment (4+ / 0-)

      because they rec'd it.

      If you believe Bush stole the election of 2004, you are as anti-American as the people who think Obama wasn’t born in the US.
      11 people agree with this. Wow.

      "I read this- Atlas Shrugged by Ayn Rand. I read every last word of this garbage, and because of this piece of $#!^ I'm never reading again!"-Officer Barbrady

      by Broke And Unemployed on Wed Oct 24, 2012 at 05:59:33 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  HR for the "anti-American" crap (4+ / 0-)

      "First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win". Mohandas K. Gandhi

      by DaveinBremerton on Wed Oct 24, 2012 at 06:26:39 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  fuck that, they DID steal the election (4+ / 0-)

      where were you? It's common knowledge around the world. The "anti-Americans" were the SCOTUS justices who decided to pick their own President dispite what the votes tallied. They also had plenty of enablers like you who were so blind they justified the theft.

      This diarist is warning you and your ilk it very well could happen again. Wake up.

      America could have chosen to be the worlds doctor, or grocer. We choose instead to be her policeman. pity

      by cacamp on Wed Oct 24, 2012 at 06:27:07 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Geez Dude, Wake the Fuck Up! (7+ / 0-)

      Have you not already read the instances of GOP voter registration fraud in Virginia and Indiana already?

      The mistaken voting date and place to vote in Ohio County so far?

      GOP governors across the nation pushing for voter ID laws?

      The lack of voting booths in working, middle-class and urban areas where voters are heavily Democratic, therefore causing out of control lines and increased wait times?

      Ken Blackwell's requirement that voter registration cards be printed on a specific card stock and only that card stock, otherwise those registrations would be nullified and destroyed in 2004?

      I mean, how does this shit not become obvious to people?!

      I miss Speaker Pelosi :^(

      by howarddream on Wed Oct 24, 2012 at 06:29:27 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  is that woman still in charge in Wisconsin? (8+ / 0-)

    what's-her-name in whats-it County. The one who keeps finding Republican votes in the trunk of her car.

  •  After Obama wins on Nov. 6 (14+ / 0-)

    I will take pleasure in citing this diary as a QED against any future incoherent conspiracy theorist rant.

    •  Your defensive hysterics are duly noted. (7+ / 0-)

      I made no claim about the likely outcome, just pointed out possibilities to keep in mind.  If you react like this to even having it mentioned, I don't expect you'd be much help to us if something bad actually happened.

      Voter suppression is treason.

      by Troubadour on Wed Oct 24, 2012 at 04:57:24 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Oh, I know you hedged towards the end. (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        coigue, Inkin, MRDFS

        But I think that, when it comes to hysterics, the schoolyard "he who smelt it" rule applies here pretty aptly.

        •  There was no hedging involved. (6+ / 0-)

          I simply discussed the situation as the facts and history indicate it to be, noting qualifications and caveats where they were justified - we grownups call that being honest and intelligent.  Your deranged accusation of it being a "conspiracy theorist rant" is the comment of someone deeply insecure about the outcome in November.  

          If you don't want to deal with this, then just don't - there's no need to have a nervous breakdown and demand that everyone else share your denial.

          Voter suppression is treason.

          by Troubadour on Wed Oct 24, 2012 at 05:44:02 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  As one of the anti-conspiracy camp on DKos, (4+ / 0-)

            I fully defend Troubadour's (excellent, well-written) diary.  It was not a presentation of, nor a defense of, any particular conspiracy theory- it was a call to be alert for, and fight back against, any fraud (fraud does exist, as the Virginia and Indiana cases show) that shows itself on election day.  

            Argyrios, there's a difference between pointing out existing fraud, speculating on future fraud, and giving a course of action for dealing with it, as Troubadour did, and writing a diary where tenuous connections are made, for example, between the contents of one's mutual fund and one's power to affect voting machines, an idea I've pushed back against elsewhere.

            And if that's not enough run-on sentences for you, I can write some more.

            •  the diary assumes that Wisconsin was stolen (0+ / 0-)

              Maybe it's possible to read around that, but not really. Assuming that Scott Walker rigged the Wisconsin recall seems pretty out there to me -- and reading Troubadour's previous work on that topic doesn't change my view.

              Not that I care whether Troubadour believes that. But basically, this is a "Wake Up, Sheeple!" diary that, if it avoids CT, does so through creative ambiguity.

              Election protection: there's an app for that! -- and a toll-free hotline: 866-OUR-VOTE
              Better Know Your Voting System with the Verifier!

              by HudsonValleyMark on Wed Oct 24, 2012 at 09:05:19 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

        •  dude, you already lost this arguement... (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Troubadour

          ... so you may as well concede and stop acting like what you object to when others do it.  

          "Minus two votes for the Republican" equals "plus one vote for the Democrat." Arithmetic doesn't care about their feelings either!

          by G2geek on Wed Oct 24, 2012 at 10:16:17 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  you did not read this diary... (4+ / 0-)

      Either that, or you are being...
      1. deliberately obtuse
      2. deliberately rude.

    •  and if Romney wins are you ready to.... (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Troubadour, Broke And Unemployed

      ... eat a full serving of stewed crow, live on webcam?

      As for your poisonous "pleasure," do you also take pleasure in telling people to not bother replacing the batteries in their smoke detectors after they haven't had a house fire in a year?

      "Minus two votes for the Republican" equals "plus one vote for the Democrat." Arithmetic doesn't care about their feelings either!

      by G2geek on Wed Oct 24, 2012 at 10:14:53 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Chill out, buddy. Just, chill. n/t (5+ / 0-)

    It's here they got the range/ and the machinery for change/ and it's here they got the spiritual thirst. --Leonard Cohen

    by karmsy on Wed Oct 24, 2012 at 04:41:05 PM PDT

  •  This community has been all over the issues (27+ / 0-)

    regarding voting. Don't act like everyone here is ignorant of that.

    That being said, you're lecturing us about not getting a defeatist attitude, and you're already certain that vote is going to be rigged?

    Second, when has this community ever been quiet about a fucking thing? Or apathetic about voting results?

    I just don't see how this diary is helpful. It's paranoid and self-defeating. Can you not see how something like this will depress enthusiasm?

    Aye aye aye. Your heart's in the right place, but sheesh.

    P.S. I am not a crackpot.

    by BoiseBlue on Wed Oct 24, 2012 at 04:41:26 PM PDT

    •  diary hedges its bets (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      librarisingnsf, MRDFS, Argyrios

      The highest grade of CT is utterly non-falsifiable. When it's really good, you're not even quite sure what you read, except that it was mesmerizing.

      This is supposed to be a call to make our own history. But since it is founded on dubious premises about our victimhood, it does mostly sound desperate.

      Election protection: there's an app for that! -- and a toll-free hotline: 866-OUR-VOTE
      Better Know Your Voting System with the Verifier!

      by HudsonValleyMark on Wed Oct 24, 2012 at 04:52:58 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  The nebulous hypocrisy in your reasoning (4+ / 0-)

        never ceases to bore me.  Frankly, if I understand your views correctly, the only way to avoid being accused of having a persecution complex is to deny that a crime ever took place or ever can take place in the future.  In other words, as long as we adopt an Orwellian idea of reality, you've just solved all crime everywhere - just don't record it, and tell anyone who reports or expresses concerns over it to shut up.

        You pop up like a conjured spirit every time anyone mentions electoral crime issues, always to deny that anything has happened, that is anything is wrong, or that anything can ever possibly be wrong other than in the minds of the people who dare to say otherwise.  You've made it painfully clear that this is a matter of ideology with you, and I'm just not interested.

        Voter suppression is treason.

        by Troubadour on Wed Oct 24, 2012 at 05:52:08 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  but of course you don't understand my views (0+ / 0-)
          Frankly, if I understand your views correctly, the only way to avoid being accused of having a persecution complex is to deny that a crime ever took place or ever can take place in the future.
          And your textual warrant for that "understanding" is what?

          There is none. I defy you to get there from what I actually write.

          I don't know whether this is a conscious tactic, an error in perception, or what.

          Election protection: there's an app for that! -- and a toll-free hotline: 866-OUR-VOTE
          Better Know Your Voting System with the Verifier!

          by HudsonValleyMark on Wed Oct 24, 2012 at 07:37:42 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  You're welcome to correct my memory (0+ / 0-)

            but as I recall you denied that Republicans had ever committed high-level federal election fraud.

            Voter suppression is treason.

            by Troubadour on Thu Oct 25, 2012 at 01:15:47 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  I'm not even sure what that means (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              blueness

              "high-level federal election fraud"? Google finds zero hits for that phrase. If you're trying to illuminate a disagreement with someone, wouldn't it be reasonable to start with something he verifiably said -- or at least to use an established term of art -- instead of making stuff up from "memory"?

              The Republicans clearly stole the 1876 election, although I don't know whether to construe it as "federal election fraud." It's impossible to quantify the impact of the purge lists in Florida in 2000, but even the effort could be construed as high-level fraud. Whatever one calls what SCOTUS did, it stank. Whatever one calls the things that Ken Blackwell did (not the Raw Story speculations, but the stuff that nobody disputes), they stank.

              I don't know of solid evidence of electronic hacking in any federal election, although there are some known question marks (no one really can say what happened in Georgia in 2002; no one can confidently say why Christine Jennings lost in Florida-13 in 2006) plus the inherent problem of insecure and unverifiable systems. I've talked about these issues rather extensively here. I think it would be hard for a neutral observer to construe my posts as "deny[ing] that a crime... ever can take place in the future."

              Election protection: there's an app for that! -- and a toll-free hotline: 866-OUR-VOTE
              Better Know Your Voting System with the Verifier!

              by HudsonValleyMark on Thu Oct 25, 2012 at 09:29:45 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

      •  I have to disagree, HVM (5+ / 0-)

        Trobadour's diary is no different than an information packet on how to avoid rape... stick to well-lighted areas, travel in groups, how to defend yourself, how to use mace.  If the worst does happen, here's how to seek help.  

        Such information does not assume that you ever will be raped, or that you are likely to be raped.  It does take into account that rape has occurred, elsewhere, to others, and based on those crimes, everyone should be wary.  Not paranoid, never-leave-your-house wary, but smart-wary.  

        •  I think a more apt analogy (4+ / 0-)

          is an information packet about how to avoid being gored by a unicorn.

          •  Well, election fraud does exist... (0+ / 0-)

            Beyond the cases going on in Virginia (destroyed registrations) and Indiana (purging of the rolls), there are many other historical examples of missing ballots, re-discovered ballot boxes, vote shaving, and other stuff, going back to antiquity, so this isn't unicorn fantasy we're dealing with.  I do doubt sincerely that it can occur on a scale and to a degree that will affect the outcome. How many thousands of election workers and officials would have to be in on the conspiracy, and how many others would have to be bought off, and how many others still would have to be totally quiet about what they observed for this to work, multiplied by the number of states necessary to effect a Rmoney victory?  THAT is the goat in the corner, eating your slippers and giving you the WTF look.

            As we have concurred elsewhere, though, the "my mutual fund portfolio gives me control over the output of the electronic voting machines" is indeed a unicorn, and a fat, hairy one at that.  

            •  no conspiracy needed. (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Troubadour, Broke And Unemployed

              Just a climate in which rules are eroded and opportunities to cheat exist.  

              Then, like ants following each others' scent to find the food, a statistically observable number of the GOP faithful will follow the trail and bring home little tiny particles of the food.  With enough ants, an animal carcass in the woods can be stripped clean to the bones pretty damn quickly.  

              Nature builds with few and simple rules.

              "Minus two votes for the Republican" equals "plus one vote for the Democrat." Arithmetic doesn't care about their feelings either!

              by G2geek on Wed Oct 24, 2012 at 10:22:58 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

          •  so if unicorns don't exist, why are you spending.. (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Troubadour, Broke And Unemployed

            ... so much time and effort trying to prove they don't exist?

            "Minus two votes for the Republican" equals "plus one vote for the Democrat." Arithmetic doesn't care about their feelings either!

            by G2geek on Wed Oct 24, 2012 at 10:19:45 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

        •  I don't think Troubadour knows enough (5+ / 0-)

          to teach many people here much of anything about how to be smart-wary about election fraud.

          I think that is probably what he intends. And it seems to entail lots of imaginative leaps, starting with the title of the diary. How has he determined that "Daily Kos is in denial"?

          Election protection: there's an app for that! -- and a toll-free hotline: 866-OUR-VOTE
          Better Know Your Voting System with the Verifier!

          by HudsonValleyMark on Wed Oct 24, 2012 at 07:39:32 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  thanks for your concerrrn. i see you've... (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Troubadour, Broke And Unemployed

            ... spent quite a bit of time gnawing on your pencil over this.

            "Minus two votes for the Republican" equals "plus one vote for the Democrat." Arithmetic doesn't care about their feelings either!

            by G2geek on Wed Oct 24, 2012 at 10:24:11 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  heh (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              blueness

              It doesn't exactly concern me that he doesn't know enough to have a constructive agenda. But it does trouble me that a lot of people don't seem to notice -- and don't seem to notice that he is asserting as fact that Walker rigged the recall election, and that anyone who disagrees is in "denial" or worse. Was that established as objective fact somewhere, and I missed it?

              Election protection: there's an app for that! -- and a toll-free hotline: 866-OUR-VOTE
              Better Know Your Voting System with the Verifier!

              by HudsonValleyMark on Thu Oct 25, 2012 at 04:00:23 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

        •  That's actually a perfect example (0+ / 0-)

          Because most women don't get raped while they're walking in dark areas alone without mace.

          They get raped by someone they know, or in a situation that is not at all like a dark alley.

          In other words, those handy dandy tips are really fucking helpful to about, oh, no one.

          P.S. I am not a crackpot.

          by BoiseBlue on Wed Oct 24, 2012 at 07:50:43 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  Uh, no. (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      sockpuppet, 4democracy, KayCeSF
      Don't act like everyone here is ignorant of that.
      I didn't.
      That being said, you're lecturing us about not getting a defeatist attitude, and you're already certain that vote is going to be rigged?
      No.  I discussed the fact that Republicans have a long and growing tradition of doing so, have become more brazen lately than in past instances, and as many of the reactions posted here indicate, a lot of people who we need to be aware of it are seemingly psychologically incapable of even hearing the subject raised without getting hysterical and shooting the messenger.  That's not helpful.
      Second, when has this community ever been quiet about a fucking thing? Or apathetic about voting results?
      I didn't say we would be quiet or apathetic - I said we would have to deal with a lot of people turning into whiny blobs of jelly.  One of the things that originally made Daily Kos so powerful for me as opposed to other Democratic websites was that it largely avoided becoming a bastion of helpless whining.  Given what I saw following the first debate, it's a pretty safe bet that a lot of people here would collapse into gobs of cottage cheese if Romney pulled a Walker or even a 2000.
      I just don't see how this diary is helpful. It's paranoid and self-defeating.
      I just don't see how this comment bears any resemblance to the diary.  It's a complete non sequitur that characterizes an attempt to get people to be stronger and better organized as "self-defeating" and "paranoid."  I have to question whether you even read it or just skimmed it and form your opinions based on some vague emotional reaction to the gist.

      Voter suppression is treason.

      by Troubadour on Wed Oct 24, 2012 at 05:05:54 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Those people who turn into gobs of jello are their (4+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        MRDFS, mdmslle, Troubadour, Quicklund

        own beings. The people who had a meltdown over losing a few points after a debate certainly can't be counted on to have spines of steel if the election got rigged.

        That's what the adults in the room are for.

        I just don't even know why we would focus our energy on this right now.

        P.S. I am not a crackpot.

        by BoiseBlue on Wed Oct 24, 2012 at 05:39:32 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Okay, that's a valid point. (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          SeaTurtle, G2geek

          Part of it is just to get it on record that the issue was raised.  Believe it or not, it helps people to know that people have been thinking about things when they go wrong - it means it wasn't totally unforeseen, and therefore isn't something that they can't necessarily deal with and control.  They can draw on previous thinking instead of having to come up with all new answers on the fly.

          Voter suppression is treason.

          by Troubadour on Wed Oct 24, 2012 at 08:09:31 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  because we're not little babies who can't... (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Troubadour, Broke And Unemployed

          .... be told what the backup plan is until the moment it's needed, because we might throw a waaah if we're told any sooner.

          We're smart enough to participate in our own emergency preparedness.  

          "Minus two votes for the Republican" equals "plus one vote for the Democrat." Arithmetic doesn't care about their feelings either!

          by G2geek on Wed Oct 24, 2012 at 10:27:39 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  I see how the comment bears much resemblance (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        BoiseBlue

        to the diary.  Are you reading something different than you actually wrote?

      •  people who are in denial attack anyone who... (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Troubadour, Broke And Unemployed

        ... challenges their state of denial.

        Like well-defended alcoholics who blame their spouses for their drinking.  

        "Minus two votes for the Republican" equals "plus one vote for the Democrat." Arithmetic doesn't care about their feelings either!

        by G2geek on Wed Oct 24, 2012 at 10:25:51 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  Amen, BoiseBlue. (5+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      coigue, BoiseBlue, MRDFS, mdmslle, dougymi

      "A typical vice of American politics is the avoidance of saying anything real on real issues." Theodore Roosevelt.

      by StellaRay on Wed Oct 24, 2012 at 05:19:03 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  my the biggest fear (5+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    BoiseBlue, Troubadour, StellaRay, Inkin, G2geek

    is not large scale fraud but the GOP getting their vote out.

    This is not Romney's to win but Obama's to lose.  

    As in 2010, not getting enough votes will be the problem for the Democrats.

    "The only person sure of himself is the man who wishes to leave things as they are, and he dreams of an impossibility" -George M. Wrong.

    by statsone on Wed Oct 24, 2012 at 04:41:58 PM PDT

    •  That doesn't make much sense. (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Kay Observer2, SeaTurtle, G2geek

      You're afraid of losing an election legitimately, but not afraid of democracy being undermined?  The only way that would make sense would be if you don't believe any of the things already reported are actually happening.  If the goal is four more years for Barack Obama, we can't keep pretending that people we know constantly break the rules are going to play by them, or that the Election Fairy will protect us from them.  

      This is exactly what I'm talking about - pretend everything is okay, then just collapse into shocked helplessness when Republicans ignore the law.  I'm confident we have the votes to win a legitimate process, and will keep working to achieve even better, but that's not necessarily enough.  Anyone who acts threatened by acknowledging that is part of the problem I'm talking about, and not really taking responsibility for anything.

      Voter suppression is treason.

      by Troubadour on Wed Oct 24, 2012 at 05:20:00 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  statsone message was horribly misread (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        HudsonValleyMark, Troubadour

        I assume the strawman mis-characterizations of his comment were of course not intentional.

      •  what s/he is saying is that if you rank-order... (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Troubadour

        .... the various things that could cause us a loss on 06 November, the most probable is simply that the enemy gets more of their troops to the voting booth than we do.  

        That's a reasonable enough opinion as far as it goes.

        But it doesn't go far enough in terms of preparing for other things, such as vote suppression and election fraud, that also have high enough probabilities to be worried about.

        "Minus two votes for the Republican" equals "plus one vote for the Democrat." Arithmetic doesn't care about their feelings either!

        by G2geek on Wed Oct 24, 2012 at 10:39:08 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  He's right. (11+ / 0-)

    Deny all you want; call him names; call me names. The dude is right. He didn't say Obama would be defeated. He said we need to be prepared for all-out warfare post-election.

    Given what we've seen from the GOP over the past four years, how can anyone here argue with that?

    http://otherwise-occupied.tumblr.com/ @OOccupied

    by jvantin1 on Wed Oct 24, 2012 at 04:44:50 PM PDT

    •  No one is saying the republicans are above board (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Harkov311, StellaRay, Argyrios, Quicklund

      I just think that in the next 13 days our time and energy  is better spent winning the election than focusing on a what-if.

      P.S. I am not a crackpot.

      by BoiseBlue on Wed Oct 24, 2012 at 04:47:24 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  The point is to have the what-if in mind. (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        KayCeSF, SeaTurtle, G2geek

        Surely you don't think it's a good idea to be totally unprepared for something that the GOP's actions suggest is a real possibility?

        Voter suppression is treason.

        by Troubadour on Wed Oct 24, 2012 at 05:54:58 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Your ideas of preparation are lacking (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Quicklund

          Sure, we'll take pictures and send emails. That will resolve it.

          Not ONE thing that you proposed does anything to counteract what would be a rigged election. Pictures of ballots don't do a fucking thing, and yes, we will write angry LTEs and emails. Again, what does that do?

          I'd be all for a diary that wasn't proposing that, in the event of an emergency, please do what you all already do. Take pictures and write with righteous anger.

          P.S. I am not a crackpot.

          by BoiseBlue on Wed Oct 24, 2012 at 06:10:28 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  We were as prepared yesterday as we are today (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Troubadour

          I've rad about 4 diaries just this week informing me there might be electoral mischief. None of these four diaries told me anything I did not know. I suspect I am not alone on DKos thinking that.

  •  In some states... (7+ / 0-)

    ...taking a picture of your ballot might be violating statute.

    Of course, this is one of those circumstances when the risk of arrest  and prosecution would be a price I would willingly pay.

    When you are right you cannot be too radical; when you are wrong, you cannot be too conservative. --Martin Luther King Jr.

    by Egalitare on Wed Oct 24, 2012 at 04:45:41 PM PDT

    •  Aren't cameras prohibited from polling places? (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Cassandra Waites, Troubadour, G2geek

      It's a good suggestion, but not sure how feasible, given the election privacy laws.

      I can take a picture of my absentee ballot, though.

      •  Unless they make people surrender their phones (3+ / 0-)

        it's not really possible to enforce such a ban, and not justifiable to prohibit people from merely taking pictures of their own marked ballots.

        Voter suppression is treason.

        by Troubadour on Wed Oct 24, 2012 at 06:00:05 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  although, if we start letting people take... (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Troubadour, sockpuppet

          ...pictures of marked ballots, that becomes a means by which corrupt employers can demand we vote the way they tell us to, and provide proof, in order to keep our jobs.

          Now of course any employer who tried that would probably be looking at serious civil lawsuits and criminal prosecution.  But that won't stop them.

          The best we can do about photographing ballots is to do it as an act of civil disobedience in states where it is not allowed, and if challenged on it, plead competing harms.  

          "Minus two votes for the Republican" equals "plus one vote for the Democrat." Arithmetic doesn't care about their feelings either!

          by G2geek on Wed Oct 24, 2012 at 10:42:27 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  Even if there are such statutes (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Broke And Unemployed

      in any given voter's case, there's no possible justification for prohibiting people from photographing their own ballots, so I agree - do it and apologize later, if it ever comes up.

      Voter suppression is treason.

      by Troubadour on Wed Oct 24, 2012 at 05:58:58 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  actually there is: to prevent people from... (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Troubadour

        .... demanding that others vote a certain way: for example your employer, landlord, etc., demanding you vote their way or else, and provide them with proof.  

        The fact that they might go to prison for doing it won't stop them.  

        Aside from that I'm with you all the way.

        "Minus two votes for the Republican" equals "plus one vote for the Democrat." Arithmetic doesn't care about their feelings either!

        by G2geek on Wed Oct 24, 2012 at 10:43:50 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  "Remain focused, seek facts, ask questions" (8+ / 0-)

    Practice what you preach?

    The only polls to be concerned with are unadjusted exit polls on the day of the election - actual voters saying how they actually voted, not "potential" or "likely" voters discussing their intentions.
    Again: do you really think that Kerry won Minnesota, New Hampshire, and Pennsylvania by 14-15 points each? If so, how do you get there? If not, then why do you keep touting exit polls?

    I'd love to have a serious discussion about election fraud, but you keep hiding in plain sight.

    Election protection: there's an app for that! -- and a toll-free hotline: 866-OUR-VOTE
    Better Know Your Voting System with the Verifier!

    by HudsonValleyMark on Wed Oct 24, 2012 at 04:46:53 PM PDT

    •  As noted above in response to a different comment (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      G2geek

      I don't know - and can't know - whether and to what extent the official results in 2004 were legitimate.  What I do know is that exit polls are one of the standard methods of detecting election fraud internationally, and whatever discrepancies there were in 2004 were not followed up.  

      Now, I believe I've asked you before - and you never seem to answer - whether or not such discrepancies should be rigorously followed up, or whether we should just take your and the Republican Party's word that the problem is with the poll rather than the reported results.  It seems an awful lot to take on faith, and demands on our credulity seem to happen rather more often on behalf of Republican "victories" than we ever have to demand of them.  Sorry, I'm just not a "man of faith" - at least not that kind of faith.  I don't leave convicted burglars unattended with my wallet or my democracy.  

      Voter suppression is treason.

      by Troubadour on Wed Oct 24, 2012 at 06:08:54 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  no, you don't know that either (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Quicklund
        What I do know is that exit polls are one of the standard methods of detecting election fraud internationally
        What do you mean, "one of the standard methods"? This is based on your extensive reading of OSCE and Carter Center reports?

        Or maybe this is something you've read in various articles in the last eight years, and at some point you decided that it was ground truth?

        I think it's amazing that you have no answer to my questions, at all. Troubadour, what are you afraid of?

        Now, I believe I've asked you before - and you never seem to answer - whether or not such discrepancies should be rigorously followed up, or whether we should just take your and the Republican Party's word that the problem is with the poll rather than the reported results.
        I think you are smart enough to understand that your apparent inability to answer my question has some bearing on yours. But let me spell it out for others.

        No, I don't think exit poll discrepancies should be "rigorously followed up," because I infer from evidence that exit polls aren't reliable. I'm not aware that "the Republican Party" has a position on that issue, although that's a colorful ad hominem, to be sure.

        That's why I work on actual election verification mechanisms. It should be frigging obvious to everyone -- even if they somehow convince themselves that the exit polls are accurate -- that they aren't a sufficient election verification mechanism. It should also be obvious that they aren't a necessary mechanism: what we really need is to be able to establish how voters actually voted. And, of course, we have to help ensure that voters are able to vote in the first place.

        This diary offers no ideas about how to do any of that. It mostly waves its arms about how we should be ready for anything, after the election. Which is pretty damn close to not ready at all.

        Election protection: there's an app for that! -- and a toll-free hotline: 866-OUR-VOTE
        Better Know Your Voting System with the Verifier!

        by HudsonValleyMark on Wed Oct 24, 2012 at 07:57:30 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  here's your verification mech for you: (0+ / 0-)

          Paper ballots of sufficient size that they can be read from a distance with a close-up from a PTZ webcam.

          Hand-count the ballots in a room that is equipped with enough cameras that there's one to focus on every counting table.

          Broadcast the camera feeds on the local public access cable TV channel as well as via internet to anyone who wants to watch.

          Low tech voting, low tech counting, high tech surveillance by the citizens watching the count.

          Solved.  

          Yes, you can mark up my consulting fees by a reasonable percentage when you submit the invoice to whoever you're working on verifiable voting mechs for.  

          "Minus two votes for the Republican" equals "plus one vote for the Democrat." Arithmetic doesn't care about their feelings either!

          by G2geek on Wed Oct 24, 2012 at 10:48:05 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  shrug (0+ / 0-)

            If people want to do 100% hand counts with lots of cameras, I won't stand in the way. I agree with the principle that more "eyes on" are better.

            But I think Minnesota's experience shows that a good paper trail plus good recount and audit laws can work pretty darn well. To me, the shame isn't that we aren't doing 100% hand counts with hundreds of simultaneous video streams; it's that so much of the country is so far behind Minnesota, for no good reason. Granted, Minnesota is an unusually cool state, but a lot of its best practices could be transplanted (with improvements) without much effort.

            Election protection: there's an app for that! -- and a toll-free hotline: 866-OUR-VOTE
            Better Know Your Voting System with the Verifier!

            by HudsonValleyMark on Thu Oct 25, 2012 at 05:11:29 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

  •  a thoughtful diary (5+ / 0-)

    after a doubtful title. I'm not sure what you are asking anyone to do. This:

    In other words, be a thoughtful and constructive agent of history, not a passive product of it.  There is no other requirement to being a progressive, and no possibility of calling yourself one without meeting it.  
    OK.. but what does that mean in terms of actions?

    (I'm not including myself in the active role. I've already left the US, probably forever, for economic and family reasons. I'm still obsessed with the election. It's my country and always will be.) I've considered the possibility of the election being stolen, as it was in 2000, probably in 2004 and who knows how many other times. It will probably be really ugly and maybe violent.

    This Rover crossed over.. Willie Nelson, written by Dorothy Fields

    by Karl Rover on Wed Oct 24, 2012 at 04:51:44 PM PDT

    •  I identified some suggestions. (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      SeaTurtle, G2geek

      First and foremost, if the worst were to happen, don't parrot the media, don't just ignore doubts and concerns, and don't start bashing America - that's self-defeating.  Also, don't whine or act helpless.  

      Communicate with the campaign, express doubts and concerns (if any), and if you're really not sold on the legitimacy of a negative result, ask that the candidate hold off from conceding until a closer look can be taken at the results.

      Beyond that I have no idea - that's the point.  We would have to think our way forward from there, and you can't do that if you're in a state of shock.  People become either docile and obedient to whatever they're told by the media, or they become emotional wrecks incapable of understanding their situation let alone changing it.  I'm saying "stay focused, and stay together."  That sounds over-general, but think about how rarely we've met that standard under those circumstances.

      Voter suppression is treason.

      by Troubadour on Wed Oct 24, 2012 at 06:21:05 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  here's one: General strike. (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Troubadour, Broke And Unemployed

        If there is good reason to believe that the election is stolen, there needs to be a general strike while election challenges work their way through the courts.  

        "Minus two votes for the Republican" equals "plus one vote for the Democrat." Arithmetic doesn't care about their feelings either!

        by G2geek on Wed Oct 24, 2012 at 10:49:42 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  I thought this type of CT is banned here. (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    cryonaut, Argyrios
  •  The thing is (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    librarisingnsf, coigue

    there are also people in the corporate corridors of power who would be fine if Obama won.

  •  wisconsin recall election (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    HudsonValleyMark, Argyrios

    was very close to many opinion polls right before it. Also Exit polls get adjusted after the polls close to account for the arrival of exit interviews collected later in the day. You can't expect an interview conducted in the last 2 hours before poll closing to be included in the initial exit poll #s.

    As for further later adjustments to the exit polls, it does happen, though pretty much by all the media organizations. I doubt there is any nefarious intent behind it.

    Most of your screed is based on CT.

    •  I feel like I'm reliving 2005 (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      MRDFS, cryonaut, Argyrios

      Yes, the recall election results were consistent with the pre-election polling, and it's silly to argue that only the exit poll result matters.

      Exit polls get adjusted after the polls close to account for the arrival of exit interviews collected later in the day. You can't expect an interview conducted in the last 2 hours before poll closing to be included in the initial exit poll #s.
      Often some late interviews are added, but that rarely is a major factor. I would bet it wasn't in Wisconsin.
      As for further later adjustments to the exit polls, it does happen, though pretty much by all the media organizations. I doubt there is any nefarious intent behind it.
      Nothing nefarious about it at all. They treat the vote counts as correct, and they weight their tabulations to produce consistent results. If your exit poll says that Kerry won Pennsylvania by 15, you could blithely report until the end of time that he won women by 18 and men by 12 (I don't know the actual numbers off the top of my head), or you could report numbers that coincide with the returns.

      Now, it's logically possible that the election returns are wrong -- and PA has some pretty sketchy voting systems. However, the election returns often make a lot more sense than the exit poll results.

      Election protection: there's an app for that! -- and a toll-free hotline: 866-OUR-VOTE
      Better Know Your Voting System with the Verifier!

      by HudsonValleyMark on Wed Oct 24, 2012 at 05:15:32 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  It was on the outside edge (3+ / 0-)

      of any opinion poll but one laughable Republican outlier claiming a 15-point advantage (they call that kind of poll a "pretext"), and once again, exit polls are of actual voters saying how they voted, not a sampling of the intent of possible voters through registration or the pollster's opinion of who is "likely" to vote.

      Also Exit polls get adjusted after the polls close to account for the arrival of exit interviews collected later in the day. You can't expect an interview conducted in the last 2 hours before poll closing to be included in the initial exit poll #s.
      I've never, ever seen exit polls do what they did in Scott Walker's recall.  They didn't behave similarly for the other races occurring that day in Wisconsin, and I've never seen them behave that way anywhere else either.  If you have, feel free to let me know.  Sorry, there are limits to my credulity.  "In Soviet Union, exits poll you!"  Look, you're going to find a rationalization to believe Scott Walker ran a marathon in 5 seconds if you try hard enough.  I covered the details of why the official results of the recall don't comport with reality in the link I provided in the diary discussion.  Ultimately you have to ask yourself what it would take for you to even acknowledge that a result is dubious, if even that level of ridiculousness isn't good enough.  

      Voter suppression is treason.

      by Troubadour on Wed Oct 24, 2012 at 06:34:47 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Can we seriously stop please with this? (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    MRDFS, Argyrios, Quicklund

    We are going to win this, the polls today looked really good and with Mourdock, Trump and other idiocy dragging down R-Money we're going to beat him.

    •  I don't think you're quite getting the concept (4+ / 0-)

      of election fraud.  "Polls today looked really good" - I'm glad, but I would like some kind of assurance that how people vote will be reflected in what elections officials report, and some kind of evidence that we in the base are taking the threat to our rights seriously.  The neurotic denial comments I've had to wade through so far are not encouraging.

      Voter suppression is treason.

      by Troubadour on Wed Oct 24, 2012 at 06:37:52 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  and your house isn't going to burn down either... (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Troubadour, Broke And Unemployed

      .... so why bother having a smoke detector?

      It's called preparedness.

      Or do you wait for the RCMP to evacuate you in a helicopter when a natural disaster is happening?

      "Minus two votes for the Republican" equals "plus one vote for the Democrat." Arithmetic doesn't care about their feelings either!

      by G2geek on Wed Oct 24, 2012 at 10:53:51 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  This isn't the first diary (16+ / 0-)

    you've written that I've felt condescended to, but the others I've let go because I respect your passion and intent. This time I'm going on record with my thoughts. I feel lectured by you, and I'm tired of it.

    I find it insulting that you think all of us here on this site are in denial. That you think you're the only one who sees the true path to righteousness.

    To give just one example, in the interest of brevity, as I could go on and on, this:

    "In other words, be a thoughtful and constructive agent of history, not a passive product of it."

    Thank you, oh wise one. If only we could all rise to your level of understanding and participation.  What a bunch of self righteous bunk. There are simply not many on this site who would consider themselves "passive products."

    Troubadour, you're a smart cookie, with many good things to add in to the conversation.  But you're going to have to stop lecturing me and wagging your finger at me if you want any credibility with me.

    And last, but not least, I'm NOT BUYING INTO your derailing fears, less than two weeks outside of this election. I don't need it.  My number one job right now is to help get Barack Obama re-elected.  I'm quite clear on this priority, for so many reasons I shouldn't have to list here.

    "A typical vice of American politics is the avoidance of saying anything real on real issues." Theodore Roosevelt.

    by StellaRay on Wed Oct 24, 2012 at 05:12:43 PM PDT

    •  very well said n/t (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      StellaRay, Inkin, BoiseBlue, Quicklund

      Election protection: there's an app for that! -- and a toll-free hotline: 866-OUR-VOTE
      Better Know Your Voting System with the Verifier!

      by HudsonValleyMark on Wed Oct 24, 2012 at 05:24:36 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Precisely (7+ / 0-)

      Did anyone else notice what is missing from this list of reactionary measures?

      Proactive ones.

      It's hilarious. "Be an active participant of history by waiting for it to happen."

      There's nothing less progressive than that.

      Proactive ways of doing things? Like, say, voting early then spending your time GOTV'ing, or signing up to be a poll worker, or volunteering to help drive people to the polls, or volunteering to do data entry, phonebanking, door-knocking, whatever.

      Nope. Don't do any of that. Wait for the results and then be ready to blog and/or send angry emails about it.

      It's the caricature of progressivism rather than the nature of it, but we are the ones who are ignorant.

      P.S. I am not a crackpot.

      by BoiseBlue on Wed Oct 24, 2012 at 05:53:56 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Excellent point. (4+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        mdmslle, BoiseBlue, Argyrios, Quicklund

        Proactive vs. whine and bitch.

        And yes BB, this is exactly what really raised my hackles in this diary.  The unmitigated gall to tell so many here who are working their asses off to get the president re-elected, not to mention his down ticket, that we just don't get it.  

        Blech!

        "A typical vice of American politics is the avoidance of saying anything real on real issues." Theodore Roosevelt.

        by StellaRay on Wed Oct 24, 2012 at 06:09:02 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  And 10,000 words too many to do it, at that. (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        StellaRay, BoiseBlue, Quicklund

        Nothing constructive in this "diary".

        Like it never dawned on anyone here that the GOP might just steal the election. Hm. Never thought of that.

        My thought: uh. Duh. And if it happens I've got pitchforks. Until then, wtf do I need to read a 10,000 word screed with nothing to say except "hey you dumb liberal! Boo!"

        What a POS.

        For the record, I am not a member of Courtesy Kos. Just so you know. Don't be stupid. It's election season. My patience is short.

        by mdmslle on Wed Oct 24, 2012 at 06:14:22 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  LOL, yes. (4+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          BoiseBlue, kpardue, Quicklund, mdmslle

          As a writer who often struggles with the demands of brevity, I gotta say, you nailed it.  One picture may be worth a thousand words, but the converse is never true.

          Or in the immortal words of Mark Twain---

          "I'd have written you a shorter letter, but I didn't have the time."

          "A typical vice of American politics is the avoidance of saying anything real on real issues." Theodore Roosevelt.

          by StellaRay on Wed Oct 24, 2012 at 06:25:28 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  It's a skimmer's turnoff (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          mdmslle

          Who has time to read each and every diary with an interesting title? I read fast but I skim faster. When I see each and every noun married to the most extreme adjective imaginable it's 9:1 it won't get read the diary in full. When the skim goes on and on the odds raise to 100%.

      •  Right, because taking pictures of votes (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        G2geek

        and corresponding with the campaign and reporting difficulties voting are not "proactive."  Either you didn't read the diary before commenting on it - prolifically - or you've got some short-term memory problems.

        Furthermore, you've already said you don't think we need to deal with this now, but now you're basically accusing me of not writing a full treatise explicitly laying out in diagrammatic detail exactly what we need to do.  This kind of opportunistic, heads-I-win-tails-you-lose criticism is intellectually bankrupt - you just don't want to hear about this subject, and having heard about it you're trying to expunge it.  We get it.

        Voter suppression is treason.

        by Troubadour on Wed Oct 24, 2012 at 08:19:26 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Let me be clear (0+ / 0-)

          I'm NOT accusing you of "not writing a full treatise explicitly laying out in diagrammatic detail"....blah, blah blah.

          And, it's not that I don't want to hear about this subject, or that I am, as you once again suggest with incredible arrogance and condescension, "intellectually bankrupt."

          Like too many on this site, you mistake my disagreements with you, and the timing of your message, for trying to "expunge it."  I'm so SICK OF THIS.

          Look, you put your ideas forth, and some will disagree.  I put my ideas forth, and some will disagree.  Please, do me a big favor, and put on your big boy/girl pants and accept that disagreement from others is THE PRICE OF VOICE.

          Man up to that.

          "A typical vice of American politics is the avoidance of saying anything real on real issues." Theodore Roosevelt.

          by StellaRay on Wed Oct 24, 2012 at 11:28:08 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  oh puh-leeze. (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Troubadour

        There must be over 10,000 comments and 20 diaries a day on those very topics.

        But somehow one diary on preparedness for election fraud is too many?

        Concerrrns noted.  

        "Minus two votes for the Republican" equals "plus one vote for the Democrat." Arithmetic doesn't care about their feelings either!

        by G2geek on Wed Oct 24, 2012 at 10:55:41 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Ummm, no sir, (0+ / 0-)

          there are not 20 diaries a day on this topic.  Thank God.

          I don't see this as a diary about preparedness for election fraud.  I see this as a condescending, lecturing, diary, that told us all from the get go, that we are in denial, while the diarist knows what's really happening.

          We here ALL know about election fraud.  We ALL know it's something we're going to have to fight, and BTW, Democrats have fought it well so far---witness all the democrats who have brought these issues to the courts and won.

          Don't tell me that "concerns are noted."  I'm not the one bringing up the concerns. I'm the one saying we only have one choice, to carry on and fight like hell, despite all the fear mongering.

          We've got bigger fish to fry right now, than worrying about what might happen, since we have no control over that. NONE.

          And I resent your inference, and anyone else's inference, that we who choose to carry on, are guilty of not being SCARED ENOUGH.  

          "A typical vice of American politics is the avoidance of saying anything real on real issues." Theodore Roosevelt.

          by StellaRay on Wed Oct 24, 2012 at 11:45:52 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  not this topic, those topics. (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Troubadour

            Plenty of diaries urging GOTV, donations, etc. etc., all to the good.

            Zero to few diaries on preparedness for the possibility that voter suppression and other means will be used to thwart or steal the election.

            We at least need to DISCUSS having a Plan B, otherwise we risk getting caught off guard.  Further, we need to discuss some means of response that is sufficiently powerful as to deter election fraud: for example a general strike.  Deterrence keeps the peace.  

            Re. feeling condescended-to, resentful, and so on: sounds like symptoms of stress.  

            "Minus two votes for the Republican" equals "plus one vote for the Democrat." Arithmetic doesn't care about their feelings either!

            by G2geek on Wed Oct 24, 2012 at 11:56:37 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

    •  It's his style. Diaries and comments. Why I (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      BoiseBlue, Argyrios

      Open his diaries I don't know. "The Troubadour" is the one you want.

      This diary is not only condescending but it's a POS with no purpose.

      For the record, I am not a member of Courtesy Kos. Just so you know. Don't be stupid. It's election season. My patience is short.

      by mdmslle on Wed Oct 24, 2012 at 06:10:02 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  If you want to identify yourself (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      KayCeSF, SeaTurtle, G2geek

      as someone with the kind of attitude I'm talking about, that's your choice - I haven't pointed any fingers at you.  I've merely described a tendency among a vocal minority and said what I think about how we can all be more effective.  If you're offended by that, then I don't know what to do for you.  When you shoot the messenger, the message still arrives - just in a form you like even less.  So feel free to think whatever you want about me, but just deal with what I'm saying.

      And last, but not least, I'm NOT BUYING INTO your derailing fears, less than two weeks outside of this election. I don't need it.  My number one job right now is to help get Barack Obama re-elected.

      "Derailing fears" - I honestly don't understand how anyone could possibly see this that way.  I'm saying "If the track is out ahead, be prepared to switch tracks" and you're saying "How dare you try to derail us!"  

      The only "fear" I'm seeing here is on the part of people who are so terrified of the possibilities I'm raising they can't even hear them discussed without having a nervous breakdown.  How would those people respond if they actually had to deal with something like this?  How well would you be doing your 'number one job' if you refuse to acknowledge major potential obstacles to it just for the sake of your peace of mind?

      Voter suppression is treason.

      by Troubadour on Wed Oct 24, 2012 at 06:49:44 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Oh please, (0+ / 0-)

        spare me. You have dismissed my comment as the result of being "so terrified of the possibilities..." that I can't deal with it without having a "nervous breakdown."  

        Helloooooooooooooooooo.  You don't see your condescension, yet?!?!!?!?!?!

        I give up.  In the words of the president, "Proceed, Troubadour."  

        "A typical vice of American politics is the avoidance of saying anything real on real issues." Theodore Roosevelt.

        by StellaRay on Wed Oct 24, 2012 at 07:42:07 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  I don't see this large number of people (4+ / 0-)

    of which you speak. I see a lot of people fighting so hard for candidates nationally and locally that I do not believe for a minute a lot of people at DailyKos would give up fighting even if the worse came to pass and the GOP cheated their way to victory.

    I am not much for long-winded lectures based on assumptions and generalizations, so I didn't read everything you wrote. I think your heart is in the right place, but I think your approach is flawed.

    We Won't Let Republicans Replace Medicare with GOP Vouchercare!

    by CatM on Wed Oct 24, 2012 at 05:14:45 PM PDT

    •  We both saw how a lot of folks responded (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Broke And Unemployed, KayCeSF, G2geek

      to the first debate.  And that was merely to a fear of losing, not if it were a present fact - let alone if it were the result of something difficult to deal with, that is so troubling some people will basically curl into a fetal position and start chanting "this is not happening" rather than even admit the possibility.

      Voter suppression is treason.

      by Troubadour on Wed Oct 24, 2012 at 06:52:17 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  the thing i don't like about this, troubadour (13+ / 0-)

    is that it presupposes that the recall election in Wisconsin was stolen. Nothing indicates that was the case, and if they were going to steal the gubernatorial recall to such an extent, logic would have followed that they would have made damn well sure to steal the senate race we barely won, through which we took over control of the state senate.

    Most public polls showed the recall failing, and recall elections are notoriously hard to poll accurately.

    So yes, they'll do everything they can. Our job is to make sure we win by enough so that it doesn't matter.

    oops. I hope the gate wasn't too expensive.

    Twitter: @DanteAtkins

    by Dante Atkins on Wed Oct 24, 2012 at 05:18:59 PM PDT

    •  Perhaps the Wisconsin recall ... (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Troubadour, Quicklund, SeaTurtle, G2geek

      ...is not the best data point to use in an argument for paying more attention to process which has been posted by Kossacks a number of times in the past.

      And which, by the way, I happen to think is important enough to keep bringing up, so I'm glad to rec this up.

    •  No, it doesn't "presuppose" that. (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      SeaTurtle, G2geek

      I reached that conclusion with over a month of carefully-linked research that I presented in the diary I linked to, part of which includes the fact that no other races that day showed similar anomalies.  My conclusion was that the Wisconsin recall was preposterous in Walker's case, and I haven't found a single argument to the contrary that didn't boil down to circular reasoning based on treating official results as their own proof.  

      We would laugh at a result like that if it happened in a third world country.  But I'm not here to rehash any of this - just to call on people not to talk themselves into a helpless stupor.  It's irresponsible to have blind faith in the integrity of elections rather than doing everything practical to ensure them - including fiercely pursuing any indications of fraud that do occur.

      Voter suppression is treason.

      by Troubadour on Wed Oct 24, 2012 at 07:00:14 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  You are a silly person. (5+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    FischFry, MRDFS, blueness, cryonaut, Argyrios

    Who thinks himself a serious person.

  •  No political party has monopoly on electoral fraud (0+ / 0-)

    Look at what happened today in Virginia -- Democrat Jim Moran's kid had to quit his dad's campaign after agreeing with someone about looking into the possibility of committing voter fraud to benefit Moran and the statewide candidates.

    In a race in Brooklyn for a party post -- State Committee -- my cousin's cousin just lost by 19 votes. He was actually winning last month by 50-60 votes when the count was first completed. Then, two memory sticks were found that hadn't been counted, and "presto" his opponent -- the candidate anointed by the Borough's political machine -- had a lead of 36 votes...which shrank a little after hand-counting. The thing is the memory sticks were the least suspicious part of it. Lots of vote bundling going on in the Hasidic community there, which voted over 90% for the machine candidate. My cousin's cousin has decided not to take this to court, but if he had he probably would have won, because the election was rife with irregularities.

    Are Republicans more committed to electoral shenanigans? NO doubt, but there are few clean hands.

    Coming Soon -- to an Internet connection near you: Armisticeproject.org

    by FischFry on Wed Oct 24, 2012 at 05:45:47 PM PDT

    •  yes they do... they = GOP (7+ / 0-)

      You cite a couple of instances but they make very little difference when compared to the massive fraud the GOP is perpetrating across the nation. All one needs to do is pay attention to the many diaries on dkos to learn the truth.

      And that's not even counting the voter suppression and campaign shananigans they're doing.

      America could have chosen to be the worlds doctor, or grocer. We choose instead to be her policeman. pity

      by cacamp on Wed Oct 24, 2012 at 06:37:01 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  To "learn the truth"? (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        FG
        "All one needs to do is pay attention to the many diaries on dkos to learn the truth."
        Wow. That's some scary shit right there. All one needs to do is read the amazingly over baked histrionics on a partisan website to "learn the truth?" If you read the same statement about Red State or Free Republic, I hope yo'd realize how insane that sounds.

        Coming Soon -- to an Internet connection near you: Armisticeproject.org

        by FischFry on Wed Oct 24, 2012 at 08:14:04 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  wrong again Mr. fry, your opinion of dkos aside (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Troubadour

          You can also read the thousands of reports from non-dkos sources if you're of a mind. They originate in every swing state and places like California. They've been reported by the MSM as well as credible sites like dkos. I was just giving you an easy reference since you came on as rather simple minded.

          As for your more favored sites like red state, stormfront, etc. I suppose they contribute to your obvious stupidity but they mean nothing around here.

          America could have chosen to be the worlds doctor, or grocer. We choose instead to be her policeman. pity

          by cacamp on Wed Oct 24, 2012 at 09:14:39 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Well... (0+ / 0-)

            I've never heard of stormfront. Maybe I've got storm troopers on my mind, but that sounds vaguely neo-nazi. Is it?  As for red state (and free republic, for that matter), I've never looked at either of those sites. I've followed a link or two to the Drudge Report (I had a strong feeling the story about Edwards' affair wasn't bullshit), but other than that, I haven't checked out right-wing sites.

            I usually know bullshit when I see it. I steer away from it when I can. Here, I hope to find better, but often I do have to wade through a lot of bullshit to find it.

            Coming Soon -- to an Internet connection near you: Armisticeproject.org

            by FischFry on Wed Oct 24, 2012 at 10:08:25 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  There was one other time.... (0+ / 0-)

              When the Weiner weiner story first broke, I did read the factless, utterly speculative defenses here -- and the attacks on some guy who was feeding the Weiner story. It bothered me, and the whole thing smelled funny to me. So, I did some digging and I went into some old stuff (can't remember if hey were tweets or on a board somewhere) and found that they'd been trying to catch him in the act because they had what they regarded as well-founded suspicions. I have to admit that I promptly decided Weiner was bullshitting, and that with respect to his following young girls on Twitter, I wrote here that those defending him weren't making any sense.

              The Edwards story was painful for me because I had been a volunteer on his first Presidential campaign and was doing some volunteer work on his second, too -- when the Drudge story first appeared (almost a year before the baby story broke). I loved his agenda, but when I talked to him, I didn't get a good feeling...and the haircut and hedge fund stories didn't help buttress my confidence in him, either. So, when I saw a piece here about a rumor about him on Drudge, I checked that out.

              What I've learned from that is to look critically and don't jump the gun to think those on the right are incapable of telling the truth or being right about something. More importantly, though, I've also seen the madness that can take over this site, defending the indefensible because they're on "our side" and king overboard in attacking those on the right, accusing them of the most awful conspiratorial stuff. Most of them want to believe they're being patriotic  and just in exposing the bad stuff on our side. Are they trying all sorts of dirty tricks to win elections? Sure. But, without evidence, I'm not prepared to assume and charge that someone on their side is rigging the machines. Is it possible? Yes, but it's also correct that we shouldn't be promoting conspiracy theories without any evidence.. There may actually be some limits on their dirty tricks -- a red line even GOPpers won't cross. Right now, I'm proposing we start with that assumption, until we have some evidence otherwise.

              Coming Soon -- to an Internet connection near you: Armisticeproject.org

              by FischFry on Wed Oct 24, 2012 at 10:33:31 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

    •  the old "both sides do it" trope. nt (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Troubadour

      http://otherwise-occupied.tumblr.com/ @OOccupied

      by jvantin1 on Thu Oct 25, 2012 at 03:10:44 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  I believe the reason why there has.. (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    KayCeSF, rubthorn, Troubadour, G2geek

    been such a blatant attempt at disenfranchising voters, is because hacking the vote is not a viable option. I do not understand why exit polls would not be done. I seem to recall that exit polls were a safe-guard against fraud. The inexplicable findings of the last few election cycles that exit polls don't work anymore is something I do not understand. I find the new meme going around about the popular vote to be interesting as well. It's sad that no one cares about how different state officials choose to run their elections until it's too late, and then, after the election, it's all forgotten until the next 4 years roll around. I'm not sure that the people who live in these states even care. As long as this continues, only a blow-out election will be perceived as legitimate.

    •  And that's part of the GOP gaming strategy. (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      SeaTurtle, G2geek

      Creating a cloud of illegitimacy around the electoral process in general while shouting down anyone who confronts specific acts of fraud as a "conspiracy theorist" would discourage people from participating.

      Voter suppression is treason.

      by Troubadour on Wed Oct 24, 2012 at 08:23:32 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  You really do hit all the marks (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    cryonaut, blueness

    of a conspiracy theorists

    Including the condescension towards people who don't agree with you.  Yeah, we are all naive and in denial...says the moon landing truther and the 9-11 truther

  •  tipped not because I agree.... (6+ / 0-)

    but because several people rather conspicuously failed to understand this diary.

  •  Well said (5+ / 0-)
    The thing is, democracy is not - and never has been - built on other people respecting your rights: It's built on you defending yours while respecting theirs, regardless of what they do.  You create (or destroy) democracy every moment of your life in the way you choose to respond to events - it's not something you inherit, and it's not something that requires the permission of those who have never and will never understand it. "
    Yes, never take others' respect for your rights for granted. Trust but verify.
    this tactic of behaving so outrageously that they shock their opponents into total disarray and helplessness.  It's the basic theory behind the "blitzkrieg" concept of warfare - to attack so quickly, so brutally, and so overwhelmingly that there is simply no time for an enemy to even psychologically come to terms with what they are experiencing, let alone mount an effective counterattack.
    Very true of many situations around the world. Sometimes people''s respect for and assumptions about order and reason are 'gamed' by their opponents as weaknesses.
  •  Thank you Troubadour. (9+ / 0-)

    I have to disagree with those who say that this is a CT or a Chicken Little diary.  I take what you're saying very seriously, and it inspires me to become more, not less, involved.

    Kossacks, I think it's pretty clear that Troubadour is not saying that such egregious election fraud is certain to happen and it's all just hopeless.  I think Troubadour is saying that it is what could - perhaps what will - happen if we let down our guard.  We need to be prepared to fight for our democracy, all the time, or one day we may very well wake up in something else entirely.

    If it goes down, Troubadour, I'll be there man.  I couldn't agree more - this is not a game.

    I hate hate. I love the look in peoples eyes when they realize, for the first time, that they have power.

    by 4democracy on Wed Oct 24, 2012 at 05:57:59 PM PDT

    •  I couldn't agree more (6+ / 0-)

      Considering how I literally freaked out after the first debate (even diaried my rant), I'm one of the folks who needs diaries like this.  

      I appreciate the diarist's sentiments, and I GET what he's saying.  It's not doom and gloom.  On the contrary, it sounds more like a Kos community call to arms, AKA,  The Art of War--a 2012 Election Version.

      Thank you,  Troubadour.

      “First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, and then you win.” ― Mahatma Gandhi

      by WFBMM on Wed Oct 24, 2012 at 06:27:41 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Very well said (4+ / 0-)

    This diary talks about a war, one many people don't want to admit is even happening. But the rhetoric at this site never approaches the vicious raving we see elsewhere. The most I can say here is to remind people of the three boxes; soap, ballot, ammo. If you reach the conclusion that the first two have been taken from you, then I think it's reasonable to conclude that, when you object, the third box will be used - on you.

    Be prepared, at the least, to shoot back.

    I am become Man, the destroyer of worlds

    by tle on Wed Oct 24, 2012 at 05:58:45 PM PDT

  •  OFA and civil rights groups are all over (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Argyrios, Quicklund

    the anticipated shenanigans. What's frustrating is being in campaign meetings where time is being wasted repeatedly discussing these issues rather than on GOTV.

    The founding fathers knew of the mutually corrupting influences of Church and state, wisely sending them to opposite corners.

    by emidesu on Wed Oct 24, 2012 at 06:03:18 PM PDT

    •  I specifically asked anyone (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      G2geek, 4democracy

      to tell me exactly what measures are being taken to ensure that this can't happen.  None of the people dismissing the diary have offered an answer.  

      On the other hand, I will agree that it's probably not an issue that needs to be harped on endlessly - just kept in mind.

      Voter suppression is treason.

      by Troubadour on Wed Oct 24, 2012 at 08:28:13 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Thanks for writing this. (8+ / 0-)

    It's sad that  people are attacking this diary, ignoring the fact that Repubs are using every dirty trick in the book. If a bunch of votes  come up "missing" in Ohio or Wisconsin on Nov. 6, will everyone just ignore it and say "nothing to see here?"

    "I read this- Atlas Shrugged by Ayn Rand. I read every last word of this garbage, and because of this piece of $#!^ I'm never reading again!"-Officer Barbrady

    by Broke And Unemployed on Wed Oct 24, 2012 at 06:05:35 PM PDT

  •  And the struggle will go on after Nov 6, (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Troubadour, Quicklund, G2geek

    no matter who gets the White House, or how.

  •  EXCELLENT diary! Thank you for this. (6+ / 0-)

    “First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, and then you win.” ― Mahatma Gandhi

    by WFBMM on Wed Oct 24, 2012 at 06:12:18 PM PDT

  •  I understand people having a negative reaction (7+ / 0-)

    to the diarist's tone. I'm puzzled by people labeling this CT.  

    I understand CT to refer to theories that have no real basis in objective reality.

    It seems to me that everything he's saying might happen is based on something that has happened, even if, in some cases, on a smaller scale.

    I'm from Virginia, so I'm acutely aware that we do seem to have an actual GOP conspiracy in place, trying to steal the election in this swing state.  Am I to suppose this is their only attempt? Or am I now guilty of CT?  Were the reports of "faulty" voting machines that just happened to favor Republicans false?  Made up by conspiracy theorists?  

    I've never wanted to spread CT, but I have trouble understanding how this fits in that category.

  •  It's not denial, genius. We get it. But right now, (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    BoiseBlue, Quicklund

    It's fucking irrelevant. We work. We GOTV. We catch what we can where we can. We try. We get it. And after the results are returned, we'll cross whatever fucking bridge we need to. Until then, irrelevant.

    For the record, I am not a member of Courtesy Kos. Just so you know. Don't be stupid. It's election season. My patience is short.

    by mdmslle on Wed Oct 24, 2012 at 06:16:38 PM PDT

  •  Troubadour, you just described my worst fears (6+ / 0-)

    in excruciating detail.  My greatest hope is that the Obama ground game overwhelms these traitors at the polls and that Obama refuses to concede if it's clear the votes WE got out were switched in the machines, especially where Romney's F'ng son is involved.  That's pretty F'ng suspect and this president has a spine of steel, so I'm praying, unlike Gore, he refuses to hand the reigns of power to these thugs.  If I'm wrong about him and he doesn't fight obvious election fraud, I will not be able to deal with it.  I'll just shut down.  So, we must OVERWHELM them at the polls.  In HUGE numbers, so that there is NO WAY they can make it look even slightly believable to the public that Romney won legitimately.  Period.

    Best. President. Ever.

    by Little Lulu on Wed Oct 24, 2012 at 06:33:40 PM PDT

    •  amen. (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Troubadour, SeaTurtle, G2geek, 4democracy

      But don't shut down.  You probably said that after 2000 or 2004, and you obviously didn't shut down.  lol!

      (((Little Lulu)))

      I don't understand all the negative responses to this diary.  I have been thinking about this issue a lot.

      As far as I am concerned, this diary is an ACTION diary, and well thought out.

      I would rather spend my life searching for truth than live a single day within the comfort of a lie. ~ John Victor Ramses

      by KayCeSF on Wed Oct 24, 2012 at 07:14:22 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I am glad to hear you say this, KCSF (4+ / 0-)
        I have been thinking about this issue a lot.
        So have I.  A lot.  I have diaried a lot on the Republican efforts to steal the election.  Read a lot about it.  Just got a book by Greg Pallast today on how he thinks the election will be stolen.  This is my #1 concern.

        I completely agree with Troubadour and am very relieved to read his diary and don't understand the criticisms; his tone did not come across as condescending to me.

        The R's will do anything to win; and I believe that they they have a lot in place to try to steal the election.

        Rather than give up, I really like the metaphor of putting steel in our spines.  This is a metaphor I use with myself a lot, and I express it as 'having nerves of steel.'

        I am preparing myself to have 'nerves of steel' on Nov. 7 to be prepared whatever happens.

        To me its callled SURVIVAL.

        Thanks for this great diary, Troubadour.

        It is enough that the people know there was an election. The people who cast the votes decide nothing. The people who count the votes decide everything. ~~Joseph Stalin

        by SeaTurtle on Wed Oct 24, 2012 at 10:39:30 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  our RW radio stations are key (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    JGibson, Troubadour, SeaTurtle, G2geek

    not only have they played a critical part in setting this situation up in the first place- selling electronic voting and a range of voter suppression legislation.

    they will also play a critical part (as they did in previous elections) convincing americans that the republicans really did win and  dems are the thieves and give the vote challengers and recount efforts hell. or, there;'s no need to get into the streets because the (rep) congress will investigate.

    and, like with OWS, those stations and their local and national blowhards will be calling on the 'authorities' to clamp down on the protestors.

    so when/if it gets to that, one of the top 2 places to protest and demonstrate are our local talk radio megastations.

    This is a list of 76 universities for Rush Limbaugh that endorse global warming denial, racism, sexism, and partisan lying by broadcasting sports on Limbaugh radio stations.

    by certainot on Wed Oct 24, 2012 at 07:01:12 PM PDT

  •  Guys, use Occam's razor. (5+ / 0-)

    There are no effective safeguards against vote tabulation machine fraud.
    Some of these machines are indeed built by companies under heavy GOP influence.
    Only these companies have full access to the machine's program.
    There are very serious suspicions that voter machine fraud was involved in the 2000 and 2004 elections.
    This problem has been and still is being investigated and monitered by very concerned and dedicated people such as Bev Harris of Black Box Voting Inc.
    The documentary "Hacking Democracy" is a good place to start if you want to learn more on the subject.

    As an aside, this is my very first comment on this site. I was hoping it would be about something more cheerful, like congratulating the people who are doing such an amazing job of GOTV.
    I am french and I simply find the passion displayed by Americans to become involved in the democratic process and to fight for their democratic rights awe-inspiring, and quite simply, inspiring.

    However, the subject  of voter machine fraud was precisely one of the things that got me hooked on these elections.
    I believe these elections are about much more than what policies your country will adopt over the next four years.
    They are about the future of democracy, not just in America, but in the whole world.
    So every day I am crossing my fingers and hoping these elections will run smoothly and give the expected and logical result: the reelection of President Obama.

  •  From the Washington Post (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    SeaTurtle, G2geek, Troubadour

    I am sure everyone is aware of the ties between the Romney Campaign and a certain voting machine company in Ohio..if not..here is an interesting article from the Washington Post.

    Voting Machine Company

  •  What has to happen is (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    G2geek, Troubadour

    an overwhelmingly large turn-out on election day which will in the end thwart the efforts by the Republicans to manipulate the voting numbers.  That is how I saw Obama's win in 2008..the numbers of people who turned up at the polls overwhelmed the attempts if any at rigging the election.

    We know what the Republicans are all about..that is why Ohio will be interesting to watch.

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