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I'm not a third party harpy, but i've been thinking a lot about them lately.  

I don't necessarily disagree that true change has usually come from within and that those who believe such things have gotten their way on election day.  I also recognize that some on the left have gone way beyond the bitterness of 2008 and seem to have nothing left but going out of their way in finding something to criticize about Obama on a regular basis.  With those stipulations out of the way on to third parties.

Those seeking the change they feel has yet to happen were met with derision, condensation and on the worst days, claims of racism when they sought this change.  Much of that derision and condensation is still going on (yes it goes both ways - see paragraph one).  Simply put, a portion of the left doesn't feel welcome in the democratic party anymore.  It is not hard to see why they venture into foreign terroritory when the same people who insist change can only come through them scoff at those who seek it.  The same ones who insist the less leverage they have, the more they can make Obama accomplish.

Maybe they're right.  We're about to find out.  But to those who think the disenfranchised on the left have childish and unrealistic expectations you should understand something:  they don't.  They believe their beliefs are just as valid and acheivable as the rest of the belief-holders.  They believe they should at least have the chance to try and find out.  This was a change election for them as well.  and they're going to look for that change wherever they can, no matter who it's politically inconvenient for.

Food for thought if nothing else.

[Update]  To be clear, I'm not approving or disapproving of their methods or motives.  I'm simply trying to understand and clarify them.

[Update x2]  Yes, yes, yes.  I know voting 3rd party is not productive towards the Democratic party.  Hence the opening paragraphs.  I think I've made that perfectly clear that I understand the futility of voting 3rd party.  I'm trying to elaborate on why those voters feel the need to do so despite that.  I'm trying to have a discussion, not a Sermon.  Please feel free to do the same.

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Comment Preferences

  •  where's that gif (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    jan4insight, JoanMar, kestrel9000

    of the "awwww jeeez, not this sh** again!"

    look, mang:  the objection has never been about principles, except that third parties just about always act only as spoilers, thereby thwarting any progress towards achieving these principled goals.

    the objection is not to having principles, but to sacrificing everything on the altar of one's ideology.

    i award you no points and may god have mercy on your soul.  

    Die with your boots on. If you're gonna try, well stick around. Gonna cry? Just move along. The truth of all predictions is always in your hands. - Iron Maiden

    by Cedwyn on Mon Nov 05, 2012 at 04:16:20 PM PST

    •  they don't believe (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Horace Boothroyd III, Bisbonian

      the progress they themselves are seeking is happening.  That's my point.  I am not justifying them.  I am simply trying to understand them.  If all you have to offer them is to call them spoilers don't be surprised when they're knocking on Nader's door.  With due respect, phrasing your objectives this way does nothing but piss them off.  Which may feel good, but is hardly productive.

      •  well, listening to this claptrap (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        kestrel9000

        pisses me off but good.  how anyone who lived through 8 years of shrubya can still think third party at the national level is a winning strategy is beyond comprehension.

        what they're doing is the very picture of "hardly productive" and will not only not achieve their goals, but hinder them by putting the least left person in power.

        and look:  it doesn't matter whether or not they believe the changes they want are happening.  it doesn't even matter whether or not the changes are happening.  both of those are irrelevant to the central point here, which is that electoral politics being what they are here, third parties have historically done nothing but put the wrong person in office.  see:  the whole of u.s. history

        Die with your boots on. If you're gonna try, well stick around. Gonna cry? Just move along. The truth of all predictions is always in your hands. - Iron Maiden

        by Cedwyn on Mon Nov 05, 2012 at 04:33:31 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  It's not about (0+ / 0-)

          electing the 3rd party.  It's about denying their vote to the other two parties.  They believe all the other options to acheive the change they themselves want have failed.  My point is that beyond simply criticizing their move towards theird party we should ask WHY they have that urge in the first place.  Some are in a fantasy world, but some are not.  And we need to find the most productive way to handle that, whatever it may be.

          •  and all that does is put the GOP in power (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            kestrel9000

            srsly...look up every u.s. election in which there was a third-party presence.  it has never, not once, left the party that spawned the third party run in power.

            i understand fully why they feel the way they do.  i doubt i disagree with much of their beliefs.  

            but get it through your head already that the objection is to the utter lack of strategic and tactical finesse not voting represents.

            IN ORDER TO ACCOMPLISH POLITICAL OBJECTIVES, ONE MUST HAVE POWER, i.e., VOTES IN CONGRESS AND SUCH

            They believe all the other options to acheive the change they themselves want have failed.
            and since when is the answer to give up?  have they run for office locally?  


            Die with your boots on. If you're gonna try, well stick around. Gonna cry? Just move along. The truth of all predictions is always in your hands. - Iron Maiden

            by Cedwyn on Mon Nov 05, 2012 at 05:00:22 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  voting 3rd party is not giving up (0+ / 0-)

              voting third party is not about gaining power.  it is about denying power to the other two parties.  yes, in order to accomplish objectives one must have power.  they don't feel they have any power.    not in the democratic party in its current form.  the only power they feel they have left is to deny them their vote.  i'm trying to figure out the most productive way to keep things from getting to that point.

              •  and you're being given every argument (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                kestrel9000

                to dissuade them, but pushing back on all of them.

                it is about denying power to the other two parties.  yes, in order to accomplish objectives one must have power.  they don't feel they have any power.  not in the democratic party in its current form.  the only power they feel they have left is to deny them their vote.
                once again:  denying dems power doesn't give those voices/voters any more power.  all it empowers is the GOP.

                seriously...please point to tangible gains obtained via this "strategy."

                Die with your boots on. If you're gonna try, well stick around. Gonna cry? Just move along. The truth of all predictions is always in your hands. - Iron Maiden

                by Cedwyn on Mon Nov 05, 2012 at 07:50:54 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  gains for whom? (0+ / 0-)

                  some of the agenda items are different.  your goals may being met but that doesn't mean theirs are.  maybe driving them away is the more efficient answer as long as you don't need their vote.  but deriding them for feeling deried isn't working either.  no one cares, because they don't need their vote.  god forbid they ever do.  but at the very least the surprise at their unhappiness is a weird form of tonedeafness.

                  •  for the 1,000th time (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    kestrel9000
                    but at the very least the surprise at their unhappiness is a weird form of tonedeafness.
                    it. is. not. about. that.  the ONLY objection is to the god-awful strategy and tactics that not voting represents.

                    Die with your boots on. If you're gonna try, well stick around. Gonna cry? Just move along. The truth of all predictions is always in your hands. - Iron Maiden

                    by Cedwyn on Tue Nov 06, 2012 at 04:11:16 AM PST

                    [ Parent ]

          •  You can't move a party to the left (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Cedwyn

            from outside the party.

            It’s one thing to be disappointed in policy outcomes, or even angry about them. But more and more it seems that we are in an age of liberal despair–as reflex and first instinct, as motif and explanation, even, it sometimes seems to me, as fashion. Criticism of legislation and proposals is always proper and necessary, as is the application of whatever pressure people can apply to try to produce more progressive outcomes. But I’ve read and heard many critiques that then race right past that into outright desolation. One noticed it in the days after the passage of the health-care bill in late March. There was a brief geyser of euphoria, and then, in two or three or at most five days, skirmishes broke out over why Obama didn’t make more recess appointments than the 15 he shoved through on March 27. By March 31–10 days after the House passed health-care reform–when Obama announced his since re-thought plan to open many coastal areas to offshore drilling, things on the liberal side were more or less back to the dour normal...
            The changes we want to see won’t happen in 18 months, or in two years, or four, or probably even eight. Indeed, the entire Obama era, if it lasts eight years, is best thought of not as a culmination, or a self-contained time frame that should be judged a failure if X, Y, and Z don’t happen. It’s the start of a process that may take 16 years, or 24; that may be along the way interrupted or undone; that will be fought tooth and nail, as we’ve plainly seen these recent months, by others whose idea of America is incomprehensible to us but who are citizens too, with the same rights we have.
            http://www.democracyjournal.org/...

            This is one of my favorite pieces by Michael Tomasky,  it's a long read, but so good.

            “We are not a nation that says ‘don’t ask, don’t tell.’ We are a nation that says ‘out of many, we are one.’” -Barack Obama

            by skohayes on Mon Nov 05, 2012 at 05:08:06 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

  •  This is a discussion for another day. (4+ / 0-)

    Absolutely not today.
    Today and tomorrow we fight to get DEMOCRATS elected.
    For anyone on the left of the political spectrum to do anything  other than become 100% engaged in this endeavor is bordering on treason, imho.

    866-OUR-VOTE!!(866-687-8683) Lyndon Johnson: The vote is the most powerful instrument ever devised by man for breaking down injustice and destroying the terrible walls which imprison men because they are different from other men.

    by JoanMar on Mon Nov 05, 2012 at 04:16:27 PM PST

  •  if you come here as a Republican.... (3+ / 0-)

    espousing old-style Republican ideals but say you love Obama you get hugs. If you're a left-leaning Democrat talking about peace, union membership, maintaining the social safety net as is and wonder if the President agrees, you get HRs.

    Maybe I should have titled this "do not read until the polls close".

    •  because the GOoPer is a defector (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      kestrel9000

      a net gain to our side.  

      talking up greens gets us nothing but a spoiler effect.  why are we crystal clear on that concept regarding the GOP's teabagger problem, but not our own side?  

      i know, i know...our more extreme faction wants the right things, whereas theirs wants all the wrong ones.  but that doesn't change electoral dynamics one whit. and the end result is a spoiler that further enables the GOP.

      Die with your boots on. If you're gonna try, well stick around. Gonna cry? Just move along. The truth of all predictions is always in your hands. - Iron Maiden

      by Cedwyn on Mon Nov 05, 2012 at 04:21:57 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  Are you the diarist? (0+ / 0-)
      Maybe I should have titled this "do not read until the polls close".

      866-OUR-VOTE!!(866-687-8683) Lyndon Johnson: The vote is the most powerful instrument ever devised by man for breaking down injustice and destroying the terrible walls which imprison men because they are different from other men.

      by JoanMar on Mon Nov 05, 2012 at 04:23:26 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  Condensation? (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Cedwyn, JoanMar, kestrel9000

    Authentic Native American silverwork, jewelry, photography, and other art here.

    by Aji on Mon Nov 05, 2012 at 04:16:37 PM PST

    •  from the cold reception (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      JoanMar, Aji, kestrel9000

      disaffected naderites get around here, like how the outside of a glass gets misty with icy-cold soda in it.

      ; P

      Die with your boots on. If you're gonna try, well stick around. Gonna cry? Just move along. The truth of all predictions is always in your hands. - Iron Maiden

      by Cedwyn on Mon Nov 05, 2012 at 04:23:11 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  How about a wet reception, . . . (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Cedwyn, skohayes

        like a bucket of cold water over the head to shock some sense into them?

        Authentic Native American silverwork, jewelry, photography, and other art here.

        by Aji on Mon Nov 05, 2012 at 04:28:14 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  if shrubya didn't do that, (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Aji

          i don't know what will.  political acumen of a sea cucumber, i tell ya what.

          Die with your boots on. If you're gonna try, well stick around. Gonna cry? Just move along. The truth of all predictions is always in your hands. - Iron Maiden

          by Cedwyn on Mon Nov 05, 2012 at 04:36:12 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  As I recall, (0+ / 0-)

            it was precisely pouring buckets of waters into people's mouths that the lefties found so objectionable, but around here, mostly crickets on taht score.

            This has been a golden age for confirmation bias. - David Brooks

            by Mindful Nature on Mon Nov 05, 2012 at 05:15:54 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  live by the claptrap (0+ / 0-)

              proverbially die by it.

              encouraging third-party voting in the presidential election only gets the lefties (or the GOP, yay virgil goode!) further away from what they want, because it's never anything but a spoiler.

              the objection has never been to the values of third party supporters; we share most of them, i'm sure.  but losing gets us zero.  nada.  zilch.  

              i repeat:  third parties have historically done nothing but split the vote and hand power to the opposite party.

              Die with your boots on. If you're gonna try, well stick around. Gonna cry? Just move along. The truth of all predictions is always in your hands. - Iron Maiden

              by Cedwyn on Mon Nov 05, 2012 at 05:19:21 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  Then the left (0+ / 0-)

                should try its hardest to get those detractors back into the main system, shouldn't it?  Because deriding them for feeling derided isn't working.

              •  That's a very limited view (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Bisbonian

                Of third party movements.  Outside movers have a tremendous history of forcing thesis parties to move on issues

                This has been a golden age for confirmation bias. - David Brooks

                by Mindful Nature on Mon Nov 05, 2012 at 05:36:52 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  please cite historical examples (0+ / 0-)

                  and please explain how something as nebulous as "movement" accomplishes as much as being in power.

                  more and better dems, yo.  the point is getting good people elected; does it really matter what they call themselves?  and isn't it better to remake an existing party in one's desired mold?

                  Die with your boots on. If you're gonna try, well stick around. Gonna cry? Just move along. The truth of all predictions is always in your hands. - Iron Maiden

                  by Cedwyn on Mon Nov 05, 2012 at 07:55:00 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Hmm (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    tardis10

                    How about OWS and the Tea Party.  Both influenced specifically by NOT just following in line behind the corporatist wings of their parties.  Similarly the civil rights movement didn't seek to just elect people who might decide to do the right thing without raising a fuss.  Suffragettes were not exactly docile.  That just a start.   The anti Vietman War movement also didn't achieve anything byeekly falling in line with the establishment either

                    All had success specifically by making life hard and by being difficult to the powers that be

                    Well behaved activists rarely make history

                    This has been a golden age for confirmation bias. - David Brooks

                    by Mindful Nature on Mon Nov 05, 2012 at 09:03:47 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  those are not examples of third party (0+ / 0-)

                      candidates/electoral parties moving an established party to the left, as you claim has been done.  candidates who actually ran and made a three-way.  

                      please cite historical examples of it doing what you say it does.

                      Die with your boots on. If you're gonna try, well stick around. Gonna cry? Just move along. The truth of all predictions is always in your hands. - Iron Maiden

                      by Cedwyn on Tue Nov 06, 2012 at 04:08:35 AM PST

                      [ Parent ]

                  •  So I was following along nicely (0+ / 0-)

                    when this: " the point is getting good people elected; does it really matter what they call themselves?" took me by surprise. But now that I'm through the looking glass,can you tell me: Is Cedwyn Welsh for green?

                    As for your final query? Your optimism is duly noted.

                    And yes,as you well know,many movements have started outside the political parties of their day and shifted the status quo politics. Rather like walking and chewing gum,two actions at once...but even when all the energy is expended chewing gum,some still want to know where they are walking and why.Thinking humans are pesky like that.  

                    "George RR Martin is not your bitch" ~~ Neil Gaiman

                    by tardis10 on Tue Nov 06, 2012 at 03:09:14 AM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  we're not talking about social movements (0+ / 0-)

                      the point is that third-party candidates have, historically, never done anything but hand power to the opposite party.  

                      Cedwyn is gaelic, but i don't think it means green.

                      Die with your boots on. If you're gonna try, well stick around. Gonna cry? Just move along. The truth of all predictions is always in your hands. - Iron Maiden

                      by Cedwyn on Tue Nov 06, 2012 at 04:09:52 AM PST

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  Bernie Sanders?Angus King? (0+ / 0-)

                        Joe (blech)Lieberman?

                        The winds are changing,left and right.Which side will splinter most clearly is still unclear to me. But as you say,  " the point is getting good people elected; does it really matter what they call themselves?"

                        and,also too...."Don't think, it won't happen just because it hasn't happened yet"

                        Off to Vote.

                        "George RR Martin is not your bitch" ~~ Neil Gaiman

                        by tardis10 on Tue Nov 06, 2012 at 04:36:35 AM PST

                        [ Parent ]

  •  Sigh (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Cedwyn, skohayes

    Y'know, the election is tomorrow, and so this doesn't matter.  Sure, I can play nice with the anti-Obama progressives.  We do have common cause on many, many things.  This comment is not about 3rd party types, it's about a certain kind of defense that drives me nuts.

    It's about this.

    But to those who think the disenfranchised on the left have childish and unrealistic expectations you should understand something:  they don't. They believe their beliefs are just as valid and acheivable as the rest of the belief-holders.  They believe they should at least have the chance to try and find out.  This was a change election for them as well.  and they're going to look for that change wherever they can, no matter who it's politically inconvenient for.
    I'm sorry, but this is pure happy-land, Sesame Street claptrap.  I don't care what their beliefs are any more than I care about the beliefs of supply-side economists.  I care about what they can do, what they can prove, and what votes they can bring to an election.

    What has just happened was a political campaign, not a self-affirmation party.  I don't care if feelings get hurt...in fact, I am not simply trying to hurt the feelings of republicans, I am trying to crush them.  I want republicans to cry, and give up, and start fighting with each other.  I want their frustration to boil over and consume them.

    For those on the left, I don't want that...we agree on more than we disagree.  But seriously,

    They believe their beliefs are just as valid and acheivable as the rest of the belief-holders.
    What a load of squishy, can't we all just get along crap.

    "Empty vessels make the loudest sound, they have the least wit and are the greatest blabbers" Plato

    by Empty Vessel on Mon Nov 05, 2012 at 04:19:13 PM PST

    •  Maybe you're right. (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Empty Vessel

      hence my qualifier "they believe."  What I'm saying, the whole point of this diary, is that calling their beliefs crap is just going to push them away.  Maybe that's a good thing.  Maybe even necessary.  I'm not venturing there tonight.  I'm just talking about process, cause and effect.  After all, your beliefs are valid too.

      •  Calling them crap is counter-productive (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Cedwyn

        I'm not saying abuse is the best option (though I will admit that I have done it).  My point is that I am tired of hearing 3rd party types defend themselves with this sort of argument...as if their beliefs are some sacred thing that cannot be criticized.

        The critical thing is that beliefs can be wrong, even stupid.  Beliefs must be challenged and challengeable...otherwise they are simply blind faith.

        If you are getting self-affirmation in the polling booth, you really don't get what voting is for.

        "Empty vessels make the loudest sound, they have the least wit and are the greatest blabbers" Plato

        by Empty Vessel on Mon Nov 05, 2012 at 04:31:47 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  PS (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Cedwyn

        To be clear, some of my beliefs are not valid.  I wrote about one of my stupid beliefs that was wrong in a diary today.  I believed that GM and Chrysler should have been allowed to go bankrupt...and my belief was stupid and wrong.

        So no, my beliefs are not necessarily valid...nobodies are.

        "Empty vessels make the loudest sound, they have the least wit and are the greatest blabbers" Plato

        by Empty Vessel on Mon Nov 05, 2012 at 04:34:11 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

    •  The definition of insanity (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Bisbonian

      is trying the same thing over and over and expecting different results.

      Maybe THIS time, if we vote for the center right party AGAIN, progressive goodness will magically flow?  Arguably, the course you espouse is just as much happy-land, Sesame street claptrap.

      As they say, you can't fix a problem with the kind of thinking that produced it.

      Now, I'm a give-money, phone-bank, do-election-protection kind of guy for the Democrats, but that doesn't mean I don't understand the reasoning here.

      Frankly, I think it is born of a sense of frustration and hopelessness that both parties are so staunchly anti-progressive.  

      This has been a golden age for confirmation bias. - David Brooks

      by Mindful Nature on Mon Nov 05, 2012 at 05:18:48 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  You may be the first (0+ / 0-)

        when it comes to this:

        Now, I'm a give-money, phone-bank, do-election-protection kind of guy for the Democrats, but that doesn't mean I don't understand the reasoning here.

        There is so little room to breathe in the Democratic party these days...

      •  Sigh (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Cedwyn

        I ain't got a problem with your argument, in that you present one.  I may or may not disagree with it, but that's another story.

        As I said in my comment, this is about the "don't criticize my beliefs" style of liberal claptrap.  

        Wanna know why I want to break up the republican party?  I'll let you in an a secret, if the republican party breaks into two 25% parties, a 33% party on the left can beat those motherfuckers...a 33% left party does single payer, and all sorts of wonderful things...and I will vote for that party once the the conservatives lose their cohesion.  

        The best way for a progressive party to win is for the conservative party to splinter.

        "Empty vessels make the loudest sound, they have the least wit and are the greatest blabbers" Plato

        by Empty Vessel on Mon Nov 05, 2012 at 05:26:41 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Interesting (0+ / 0-)

          Food for thought

          I do find it pretty interesting that in a cmunity that reacts with a pack mentality to any criticism of Democrats and Obama specifically one would make a case about people not welcoming criticism.  However being open and listening is good advice for all.  Mostly I find myself explaining both sides to the other frequently

          This has been a golden age for confirmation bias. - David Brooks

          by Mindful Nature on Mon Nov 05, 2012 at 05:34:49 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

      •  yes; the definition of insanity (0+ / 0-)

        is trying the same thing over and over and expecting different results.

        Florida 2000 ring any bells?  was there really, truly no difference between bush and gore?  

        Maybe THIS time, if we vote for the green party AGAIN, progressive goodness will magically flow!
        fixed!

        Die with your boots on. If you're gonna try, well stick around. Gonna cry? Just move along. The truth of all predictions is always in your hands. - Iron Maiden

        by Cedwyn on Mon Nov 05, 2012 at 07:58:20 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

  •  Honestly, (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Cedwyn

    if they think going out and voting for people who won't be elected is the way to achieve their goals, then have at it.
    If they want to talk about third parties, there are plenty of other lefty blogs that would welcome that discussion.
    They get a cold reception here because DK is about electing Democrats and working on the party from the inside through grassroots support.

    Today, as we watch Obama struggle against a unified Republican opposition; as we contemplate a Supreme Court rendering decisions like the one in Citizens United v. FEC; as we witness the rise of the Tea Party movement; as we bear in mind that the financiers of the conservative movement spend hundreds of millions of dollars a year on political advocacy of many sorts, several times more than George Soros and his ideological confederates spend on direct political activity; we see that we inhabit a political culture very far removed from those of the 1930s and 1960s. The misery prevalent during the former era allowed for vast experimentation. The prosperity of the latter, and a faith in government that still existed then, provided a basis for collective action. And our time? Think of this: We’ve experienced the greatest economic crisis since the 1930s, and the only mass movement to emerge from that reality is a right-wing populist one. Progressives must believe in and work toward a politics of the common good, but we must also be clear about why that is harder today than it once was.
    http://www.democracyjournal.org/...

    “We are not a nation that says ‘don’t ask, don’t tell.’ We are a nation that says ‘out of many, we are one.’” -Barack Obama

    by skohayes on Mon Nov 05, 2012 at 05:19:59 PM PST

    •  Getting them to vote Democratic (0+ / 0-)

      is a good to elect Democrats, don't you think?  And a cold reception here, if there is one, may be why they're not.  Surely we can do better than this.  This diary is a step in trying to figure out how.  

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