Skip to main content

Mitt Romney may be gone, but as this screenshot from Fox News Channel earlier this morning demonstrates, his spirit of doublespeak—and his tax plan—live on:

Fox Chyron:
Pray tell, Mssrs. Hemmer, Varney, and Barney—how exactly do you propose to generate new revenue without raising taxes? Roller coasters in national parks? Lemonade stands in front of every federal building? Or perhaps it's more simple than that: magic.

And don't forget, the reality is actually worse than that screenshot. Speaker John Boehner isn't just saying no to higher tax rates—he's actually calling for lower tax rates. If that sounds familiar to you, it should: It's Mitt Romney's tax plan, although perhaps with a slightly smaller tax cut. Using Republican supply-side voodoo math, that would generate more revenue than current tax policy (unlike Romney's "plan," which would be revenue neutral), but according to everyone else, it would not only fail to raise additional revenue, it would make our fiscal problems even worse.

If Boehner is serious about this, he ought to go ahead and put a specific plan forward that manages to raise new tax revenue while lowering tax rates. But he won't do that because he's not serious. What he wants to accomplish isn't possible. If it were possible, I'd be all in favor of it. Who wouldn't want to cut taxes in order to raise revenue? But with tax rates at historic lows, it just can't be done.

Here's the bad news for Boehner: Under current law, tax rates go up for everyone on Jan. 1, 2013. Democrats have made it clear they want to extend current tax rates on all income below $200,000. As long as they don't get fancy and treat Boehner's bluff as a serious olive branch, Democrats can force Republicans between holding middle-class tax cuts hostage and accepting the end of the Bush tax cuts for the wealthy. Once that happens, we can start a process for tax reform, but it's nearly impossible to imagine a good outcome from extending all tax cuts.

Originally posted to The Jed Report on Fri Nov 09, 2012 at 06:39 AM PST.

Also republished by Daily Kos.

EMAIL TO A FRIEND X
Your Email has been sent.
You must add at least one tag to this diary before publishing it.

Add keywords that describe this diary. Separate multiple keywords with commas.
Tagging tips - Search For Tags - Browse For Tags

?

More Tagging tips:

A tag is a way to search for this diary. If someone is searching for "Barack Obama," is this a diary they'd be trying to find?

Use a person's full name, without any title. Senator Obama may become President Obama, and Michelle Obama might run for office.

If your diary covers an election or elected official, use election tags, which are generally the state abbreviation followed by the office. CA-01 is the first district House seat. CA-Sen covers both senate races. NY-GOV covers the New York governor's race.

Tags do not compound: that is, "education reform" is a completely different tag from "education". A tag like "reform" alone is probably not meaningful.

Consider if one or more of these tags fits your diary: Civil Rights, Community, Congress, Culture, Economy, Education, Elections, Energy, Environment, Health Care, International, Labor, Law, Media, Meta, National Security, Science, Transportation, or White House. If your diary is specific to a state, consider adding the state (California, Texas, etc). Keep in mind, though, that there are many wonderful and important diaries that don't fit in any of these tags. Don't worry if yours doesn't.

You can add a private note to this diary when hotlisting it:
Are you sure you want to remove this diary from your hotlist?
Are you sure you want to remove your recommendation? You can only recommend a diary once, so you will not be able to re-recommend it afterwards.
Rescue this diary, and add a note:
Are you sure you want to remove this diary from Rescue?
Choose where to republish this diary. The diary will be added to the queue for that group. Publish it from the queue to make it appear.

You must be a member of a group to use this feature.

Add a quick update to your diary without changing the diary itself:
Are you sure you want to remove this diary?
(The diary will be removed from the site and returned to your drafts for further editing.)
(The diary will be removed.)
Are you sure you want to save these changes to the published diary?

Comment Preferences

  •  To be fair, we could raise revenues by reducing (15+ / 0-)

    loopholes and exemptions. Look at  Mitt's returns and eliminate everything that he has used, for example.

    •  If you paid close attention to what Mitt (24+ / 0-)

      said about the loopholes and exemptions, the only people who would really percentage-wise be paying heavily would be everyone earning $200,000 and below.  That in combination with Mitt suggesting eliminating the Cap Gains txes, people like him would end up paying pretty much nothing.

      •  Why, people who make 25k / yr (5+ / 0-)

        would do so much better with a reduction in their capital gains taxes! Think of the cover they could provide for the 1%.

        •  If you really look at this political landscape, (8+ / 0-)

          the only way to raise the taxes of the top 1% is to let these tax cuts expire for everyone.  

          •  Yes, sadly, that's true (6+ / 0-)

            Which WILL cause confusion, and will create some negative, albeit temporary, consequences in the markets. There OUGHT to be a way to compromise this in a responsible manner before the tax cuts expire. Responsible people would do that. Dems would have to compromise some too, but revenue increases in the form of higher tax rates and loophole-elimination are necessary no matter what.

            But in this climate, you're right, the Republicans will sit there and dare the President to go past December 31. He is going to have to call their bluff, once and for all.  The American people will have to watch the Republicans let their taxes go up to protect the 1% before the Republicans are finally brought back to the reality-based concept of elections having consequences. Not to mention, arithmetic.

            •  Threats that the market will crash are (7+ / 0-)

              about as realistic as the threat that Republican made about shutting his business down if Obama won.  He not only did not shut down, he apparently gave people bonuses or raises or something.

              Business people will storm around a room threatening not to do business when they are bargaining, but it's pretty much always bullshit posturing.  They want to stay in business and make more money and they typically stick it out and keep on doing their biz thing.

              My frustration with Democrats over the past few years has really centered around this issue.  The US is a big economy with a lot of consumers.  No company is going to ditch us, not really.  They will try to get the best deal they can, but they aren't really looking at China and saying, "Hey that's a great place to move our headquarters!"

          •  Agreed (4+ / 0-)

            And the near-term strategy seems rather straightforward:
            -Let the GOP force us into a position where the tax cuts expire.
            -Enact filibuster reform in 2013 in the Senate, then pass a return to current tax rates only for those making under $250,000. Make the Senate GOP vote against a tax cut (a bunch of them will vote for it, if you ask me).
            -Dare Boehner not to bring it to a vote in the House.

            McConnell is a hack, and has to run for re-election in 2014. Let's make his life hell.

            "Nach dem Spiel ist vor dem Spiel." -Sepp Herberger

            by surfbird007 on Fri Nov 09, 2012 at 07:57:14 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

          •  That's ok by me (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            inclusiveheart

            As a homeowner, I still have the interest and taxes on my home I can deduct, plus I still have three kids at home. If you look at the real tax break I already got from the Obama administration, letting the Bush tax cuts expire won't have that much of an impact on me.

            I fail to see what lasting negative effect the cliff would really have on the "markets." Increased revenues helps reduce that big scary deficit that the Republicans created with their stupid wars. That makes for a more stable government that's able to reinvest in public projects and money for the states, including the red ones. The only negative thing for Republicans is that they won't be able to blame their economic blundering on Obama any more.

            I'd hate to see anyone other than the wealthy pay for their stupidity but if I'm going to help finance it, I want some equality to go along with it.

      •  Raise the dividend and capital gains rates. (0+ / 0-)

        Tax dividends as ordinary income and tax capital gains at 1/2 the ordinary income rate to a floor of 12.5%.  

        Make Mitt head of a task force to recommend which deductions and special deals to eliminate since he knows them all.

        The scientific uncertainty doesn't mean that climate change isn't actually happening.

        by Mimikatz on Fri Nov 09, 2012 at 08:16:28 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

    •  Well, yes, you could (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      OldDragon, Andrew F Cockburn

      But that certainly wasn't what Mittens had in mind. He would have "broadened the base" on the middle so much that the reductions in their tax rates would have been illusory. As for broadening the base on the wealthy? We never really heard anything about that, except that capital gains taxes were most certainly NOT on the table.

      •  Also estate (death) taxes would be eliminated. (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Angie in WA State

        After all, so many median wage earners have to pay those.

        Give me a break.  Anyone with brains enough to amass a fortune during his lifetime already places their estate in a trust and names their heirs as trustees.

        "In this world of sin and sorrow there is always something to be thankful for; as for me, I rejoice that I am not a Republican." - H. L. Mencken

        by SueDe on Fri Nov 09, 2012 at 08:40:53 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

    •  The reason he focused on loopholes (4+ / 0-)

      is that even if there was a loophole for the rich that got cut, they could easily re-insert it into other legislation without much effort at all.  Tax rates generate attention, but a little credit here and a deduction there rarely get noticed at all.

      These capitalists generally act harmoniously and in concert to fleece the people, and now that they have got into a quarrel with themselves, we are called upon to appropriate the people's money to settle the quarrel. Abraham Lincoln

      by Nailbanger on Fri Nov 09, 2012 at 07:54:07 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  We only have a couple month here. (0+ / 0-)

      It will take years to figure out what Governor rMoney has done to game the system.

      Take back the House in 2014!!!!!!!!!!!! (50 state strategy needed)

      by mungley on Fri Nov 09, 2012 at 11:48:00 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  it's the same old lies the r's have always told, (14+ / 0-)

    the same bullshit they've always shoveled -- & they're counting on the same fools in the fourth estate to spread it around.  

    that's their whole act: create the meme, push the meme, attack critics of the meme, lather, rinse, repeat.

  •  It's like (11+ / 0-)

    Republicans have their very own Kubler-Ross like model of dealing with grief.  

    The 5 steps of Republican grief
    1..Confusion
    2..Denial
    3..Anger
    4..Depression
    5..Anger

    (They don't negotiate, and they don't compromise.)

  •  Does It Have to Be Collected? (4+ / 0-)

    I'm curious.  The tax rates on those making under $250K might officially go up on January 1st if the Republicans decide to actually take the middle class hostage, but does the administration have to actually tell everybody that withholding immediately needs to increase?  Taxpayers would still have the liability for the tax rate, but its actual payment would not be due until April 15, 2014.  Many people over-withhold anyway, so they might not even be cash out of pocket come that due date.  Oftentimes taxes are cut retroactively to an earlier period in the year, with the withholding calculations adjusted to reflect the change.  The same could be done here.  Do the Republicans want to engage in this fight, with the Democrats actively showing they're trying to keep middle-class taxes at the lower rate and keeping the economy from tanking while Republicans legislate with spite?

    "Love the Truth, defend the Truth, speak the Truth, and hear the Truth" - Jan Hus, d.1415 CE

    by PrahaPartizan on Fri Nov 09, 2012 at 06:50:56 AM PST

    •  you may be technically right, but (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      ferg, Steve Magruder, rabel, SueDe

      I wouldn't want to keep the withholding rate lower than the tax rate for 2 reasons:

      1.  Tax cuts may not pass the House, and I wouldn't want a big liability at year end in that case.

      2. The optics of an immediate tax increase on 1/1/2013 would be huge, and I cannot imagine the GOP obstinance could hold up under the pressure they would get from  their constituents to do something.

      •  A tax cut bill will eventually pass the House, (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Angie in WA State

        as is implicit in your #2, and the tax cut bill would include language making the cut retroactive to Jan. 1st, 2013.

        This will cause some confusion in the business community and particularly in their payroll departments, but as the bill marches through congress toward passage, they will adjust.  They will bitch and moan, but they will survive the inconvenience.

        Also, I wouldn't want Democrats to have to explain the machinations involved in PrahaPartizan's suggestion - it would be too easily demogogued by the Republicans.

        "In this world of sin and sorrow there is always something to be thankful for; as for me, I rejoice that I am not a Republican." - H. L. Mencken

        by SueDe on Fri Nov 09, 2012 at 09:27:59 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

  •  Dems don't have to do a thing. Let the tax cuts.. (30+ / 0-)

    expire, everyone's taxes go up, then put forward a tax cut proposal for the middle class and true "small business" only.  Repubs can't vote against a tax cut, they signed Grover's pledge not to do so.

    Tax and Spend I can understand. I can even understand Borrow and Spend. But Borrow and give Billionaires tax cuts? That I have a problem with.

    by LiberalCanuck on Fri Nov 09, 2012 at 06:51:47 AM PST

    •  I've long thought this is the only way to handle (11+ / 0-)

      these wankers. Go off the fiscal speed bump and then make the middle class tax cuts retroactive to Jan 1. What's not to like? We get what we wanted all along, and the repubs get their ahems in a vise of their own making. Win-win seems too small to describe the outcome!

    •  Dems should do nothing, period. (16+ / 0-)

      Americans were not over-taxed in the Clinton years. And the general budget needs the revenue.

      Dems should scream bloody murder blaming the Republicans for the tax increase for crass political gain, but should make no serious efforts to reinstate the cuts.

      After 2-3 years back at the Clinton-era rates, the issue would largely be forgotten.

      Non enim propter gloriam, diuicias aut honores pugnamus set propter libertatem solummodo quam Nemo bonus nisi simul cum vita amittit. -Declaration of Arbroath

      by Robobagpiper on Fri Nov 09, 2012 at 07:09:24 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  I think the reason for preserving (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        beholderseye, ManhattanMan

        the tax cut at the bottom is to stimulate the economy.

        But of course I'm not an economist, so I don't know how the benefits of stimulus would compare with the benefits of added revenue.

        •  one could always add (0+ / 0-)

          a payroll tax credit to accomplish that

        •  Stimulus is pointless (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          AmericanAnt

          Not a popular opinion around here, but we've been "stimulating" for years and gotten nothing for a result. Japan tried the same thing: 20 years of major public works projects and stimulus and they have the same sclerotic economy they did back in the day.

          Some time, in some manner, someone is going to have to be responsible, pony up, and pay more so we can retire some of this debt and ratchet ourselves back from the precipice we are racing toward.

          (-5.50,-6.67): Left Libertarian
          Leadership doesn't mean taking a straw poll and then just throwing up your hands. -Jyrinx

          by Sparhawk on Fri Nov 09, 2012 at 08:17:05 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Are you taking the position that the Stimulus last (0+ / 0-)

            year had no effect?

            Economists across the land have all said it did - and if it had been bigger, the effects would have been larger and deeper, moving the economy back on track faster.

            What about the large numbers of public employees like police, firefighters, teachers that were retained via funds from the stimulus when States were gutting employees to meet rising red ink spent on Jobless and newly-poor, former Middle-class citizens? All of them kept working and paying taxes.

            Aren't you old enough to have been around when Bill Clinton first took office? Stagnant economy, poor job prospects for new college graduates, high interest rates. Clinton said, 'raise taxes 3.5% on the higher earners and we'll see black ink while I am president" (paraphrased). He was right. 23 million jobs created in his eight years - empowering a renewed and vibrant Middle Class to spend, spend, spend - and they did. Bringing in enough tax revenue to have FULLY ELIMINATED OUR NATIONAL DEBT BY 2005.

            Except for the rise of George W Bush and his #CreditCardAdministration, which spent, spent, spent BORROWED money, and flushed the national books with red ink, once more; we would be a Non-Debtor Nation today.


            "I like paying taxes...with them, I buy Civilization" -- me

            by Angie in WA State on Fri Nov 09, 2012 at 10:15:59 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  Stimulus always looks good when it happens (0+ / 0-)

              But it doesn't help in the long term and just makes matters worse by distorting the natural state of the economy. The economy prospers when you make stuff of value by taking something worth $1, adding $1 of labor to it, and selling it for $3. If you're not doing this, you are on the 'cost' side of the cost side of the equation.

              And Bill Clinton is very instructive because his economy was basically 'stimulated' by securities fraud. Look at how it ended up.

              (-5.50,-6.67): Left Libertarian
              Leadership doesn't mean taking a straw poll and then just throwing up your hands. -Jyrinx

              by Sparhawk on Fri Nov 09, 2012 at 11:43:37 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  I suppose you think FDR and the New Deal, (0+ / 0-)

                including the 100%-stimulus:
                Civilian Conservation Corp. (CCC)
                Public Works Program (PWP)
                Rural Electrification Administration (REA)
                Tennessee Valley Authority (TVA)
                Food Stamp Plan (now called SNAP-Supplemental Nutrition Assistance Program) << and which continues, to this day, to ensure poor people eat and food producers don't let food rot in the fields wastefully

                All of these Stimulus actions "looked good" when the Depression happened, but weren't really good for us?

                It's why work dug us out of the Depression, not fascism. It's why we have a National Parks system, today, working to ensure future generations will be able to enjoy the beauty of our national areas just as we do, today. It's why over 99.5% of Americans have electricity coming to their homes. It's why the eastern seaboard benefits from the work of the TVA to this day, electricity and nuclear research.

                I've found some of your views, over the years, as odd. But this refusal to acknowledge that when the economy is stuck and no one will spend, the only thing left is for the Federal Government to spend - or the fucking nation will fall apart and cease to exist. This is just crazy thinking.

                What, do you think, like the lunatic magical-thinking Republicans that (contrary to data collected starting in 1913) we should just keep dropping tax rates on people, and that will somehow magically create jobs and thus increase revenue to the government?


                "I like paying taxes...with them, I buy Civilization" -- me

                by Angie in WA State on Fri Nov 09, 2012 at 12:15:11 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  Everyone always talks about the Depression (0+ / 0-)

                  It ended in World War II, sixty million dead and half the planet flattened. The massive economic dislocations and changes involved in this activity are what ended the Depression, not stimulus spending. The world of post-1945 was utterly different in fundamental ways than that of the 1930s.

                  Look at Japan in the 90s. It tried exactly what stimulus proponents advocate and failed miserably. Its debt is now at 200% of GDP and its economy is still sclerotic. A tiny increase in interest rates could (and likely will) destroy Japan, just like Greece is now.

                  You cannot spend your way out of a crisis. Consider: can you come up with a scenario that a 'stimulus' plan worked long term except for the dubious example of the Great Depression? Japan, Greece, even recent US history are all counter examples: if you spend beyond your means you get screwed.

                  (-5.50,-6.67): Left Libertarian
                  Leadership doesn't mean taking a straw poll and then just throwing up your hands. -Jyrinx

                  by Sparhawk on Fri Nov 09, 2012 at 01:03:44 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Let's try some timelines and GDP figures and see (0+ / 0-)

                    if that is true:

                    Timeline for GDP from 1910 to 1960:

                    That graphic is based on data from: Louis D. Johnston and Samuel H. Williamson, "What Was the U.S. GDP Then?" MeasuringWorth, 2008.

                    See where the rise in GDP starts? The bottom point is about 1932, and starts rising about 1933/1934, slows a bit about 1938 - and then rises until the end of the War Era and flattens a bit until it starts to rise again around 1949.

                    The economy came back significantly starting in 1934, nearly seven years before the US entered WWII.

                    US officially entered WWII on December 8, 1941 - the day after Pearl Harbor.

                    After seeing this data, you are delusional if you continue with your viewpoint of "WWII ended the Depression", which is another anti-Democratic #RightWingTalkingPoint, and I know that you know it.

                    I don't really know what Japan did during the 1990s, I'm not an Economist. But I am a history buff, and it kills me when otherwise reasonable people want to ignore actual history for FauxHistory they learned from a source other than facts and data.

                    You CAN spend your way out of a crisis. Big businesses do it every fucking day in this country. They take on debt to spend on 'capital investment' and the increased revenues which that debt buys them pays back the borrowed funds after they use it to increase sales.

                    Government stimulus spending is for when Businesses and Consumers either cannot or will not spend - and it works exactly as the Capital Investment Borrowing does for a business.

                    Stimulus goes out and allows States to retain employees who would have been laid off or terminated. Those employees spend money in their local community, retaining the Demand in their community so other jobs are not also lost (grocery store clerks, cosmetologists, auto mechanics, ad infinito...). All of which keeps the local economy from falling off a cliff and collapsing.

                    If enough communities across the land fail to #Fail, after a while, the "feeling" of consumers improves and they start to spend money they had been holding, afraid of the future... which leads to increased demand from local businesses -- and which point is where Stimulus funds from the Federal Gov't can trail off, as the engine of the Economy has been successfully re-started by the Stimulus flowing from the Federal Government.


                    "I like paying taxes...with them, I buy Civilization" -- me

                    by Angie in WA State on Fri Nov 09, 2012 at 02:18:17 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Again (0+ / 0-)

                      We are talking at cross purposes.

                      Stimulus goes out and allows States to retain employees who would have been laid off or terminated. Those employees spend money in their local community, retaining the Demand in their community so other jobs are not also lost (grocery store clerks, cosmetologists, auto mechanics, ad infinito...). All of which keeps the local economy from falling off a cliff and collapsing.
                      This is an example of the Broken Window Fallacy (too lazy to link, you can Google). If state employees do necessary work, we need them. If not, (or if equivalent services can be found elsewhere for cheaper) they should be fired. The 'stimulative' effects of their jobs is just self-serving hogwash. The less overhead there is, the better off the private economy is.

                      Re your other points, again, you have zero frame of reference because you admit that you are completely ignorant of the experiences of other countries in these matters. Japan is a very instructive example, but you brush it off and ignore it because you haven't studied it and it doesn't fit the narrative.

                      Also, with regard to your GDP chart, I'm not sure what you are trying to prove. Of course GDP rises when you are borrowing yourself into insolvency. It's like arguing that living off your credit card is a good idea, because how would you be able to eat all these steak and lobster dinners otherwise? The piper always has to be paid in the end. Always.

                      (-5.50,-6.67): Left Libertarian
                      Leadership doesn't mean taking a straw poll and then just throwing up your hands. -Jyrinx

                      by Sparhawk on Sat Nov 10, 2012 at 04:50:30 AM PST

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  Except that the era showing GDP rising after (0+ / 0-)

                        Stimulus spending continues on for years afterward and that expanding economy was paying back those borrowed dollars (see Clinton Years and Bush first term for reference).

                        Your insistence that Stimulus spending ONLY adds debt and does nothing to influence the wider economy is unreasonable, with the data there before your eyes to see.


                        "I like paying taxes...with them, I buy Civilization" -- me

                        by Angie in WA State on Sun Nov 11, 2012 at 01:27:53 PM PST

                        [ Parent ]

        •  Tax cuts are always the weakest form of (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Boris49, Angie in WA State

          stimulus, along with military expenditure - no matter who they go to. Direct jobs programs is the best answer, but any sort of domestic infrastructure spending is a good start.

          Non enim propter gloriam, diuicias aut honores pugnamus set propter libertatem solummodo quam Nemo bonus nisi simul cum vita amittit. -Declaration of Arbroath

          by Robobagpiper on Fri Nov 09, 2012 at 08:42:20 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

      •  While I'd hate for my taxes to go up, it certainly (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        JohnnySacks, Angie in WA State

        won't kill me if they do. I'd like to see a more progressive tax system eventually but that won't happen until the Republicans lose a few more elections. The economy is doing just good enough to absorb these tax increases and the long term consequences of not raising revenue will be far worse.

        Let's not let 2014 be anything like 2010. Republicans only win when we stay home!

        by Tim D M on Fri Nov 09, 2012 at 07:48:20 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  If you are paying taxes you still have a job (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Zinman, Robobagpiper

        and a bit higher taxes for you more money to help those who need it.

        These capitalists generally act harmoniously and in concert to fleece the people, and now that they have got into a quarrel with themselves, we are called upon to appropriate the people's money to settle the quarrel. Abraham Lincoln

        by Nailbanger on Fri Nov 09, 2012 at 07:56:55 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

    •  If these are the old Clinton rates that led to (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Angie in WA State

      a federal budget surplus and lower debt, I really don't have a problem with it.  I have a feeling people are overstating the effects of letting the changes take effect. I don't remember feeling particularly over taxed when Clinton was President. As for the sequestration, well, it seems like it might be a good way to knock down defense spending and keep interest rates in check.

    •  The US Senate has ALREADY passed such a bill n/t (0+ / 0-)


      "I like paying taxes...with them, I buy Civilization" -- me

      by Angie in WA State on Fri Nov 09, 2012 at 10:07:02 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  As I read this, (5+ / 0-)

    Invader Zim is cackling on the TV in the next room. Which is exactly the response I believe Boehner's remarks deserve.

    "You with your big words, and your...small, difficult words!" -- Peter Griffin

    by Penny Century on Fri Nov 09, 2012 at 06:52:03 AM PST

  •  Get this on FP pls.. Shout from the rooftops!! (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    avsp

    We need to drive the media narrative that the GOP thugs are trying to hold the country hostage.. as if the elections have no consequences!!!

    As President Obama said.. Washington has to be changed from the outside.. and we need to drum up enough noise that this idea of the 'grand compromise' is aborted.. (no pun intended)!!

    Only Two Things Are Infinite, The Universe and Human Stupidity, and I'm Not Sure About The Former......... Albert Einstein

    by futureliveshere on Fri Nov 09, 2012 at 06:53:23 AM PST

  •  they'd accept romney's tax plan? (29+ / 0-)

    does this mean we finally learn the details of it?

    Please don't dominate the rap, Jack, if you got nothin' new to say - Grateful Dead

    by Cedwyn on Fri Nov 09, 2012 at 06:53:23 AM PST

  •  Boehner....caught between a rock and a bigger (9+ / 0-)

    rock

  •  In Case of Emergency....Break Glass and Dial... (7+ / 0-)

    1-800-PAULRYAN.

  •  Chuck Todd just said that Steve King plans to run (7+ / 0-)

    for Senate in 2014 o_o

    "Rick Perry talks a lot and he's not very bright. And that's a combination I like in Republicans." --- James Carville

    by LaurenMonica on Fri Nov 09, 2012 at 07:02:22 AM PST

  •  Republicans will compromise -- as long as it's (9+ / 0-)

    on their terms.

    Eliminate tax breaks that stimulate the offshoring of jobs.

    by RJDixon74135 on Fri Nov 09, 2012 at 07:04:04 AM PST

    •  As will Dems--on Repubs' terms (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      maryabein

      I don't see this playing out differently this time. Dems don't mind caving because it will never hurt them personally, whereas fighting could. Few want to risk that cushy post-congressional K Street or corporate gig. When we make it illegal for a retiring politician to work with or for any company or organization that the legislation they worked on had something to do with, is when this might change.

      "Liberty without virtue would be no blessing to us" - Benjamin Rush, 1777

      by kovie on Fri Nov 09, 2012 at 07:46:27 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  Details... details... (0+ / 0-)

      Please please this is supposed to be a happy occasion.  Let' not bicker and argue about who killed who...

      "You have attributed conditions to villainy that simply result from stupidity"

      by newfie on Fri Nov 09, 2012 at 07:53:00 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  Voodoo Economics Makes Republican Zombies (5+ / 0-)
  •  I think (5+ / 0-)

    that the Dems and all of us need to be willing to listen to options to raise revenue,with current rates.

    Lets not be math-adverse, like our opposition.

    If, big if, they can raise revenue to an acceptable level,by elimination of deductions and loopholes on the wealthy and oil corps ect, and not raise rates, why should we not listen?

    We all know that Boehner is in a bind,and sometimes you can skin the cat in a way that allows him to save face, to allow him to cut more deals going forward on immigration, safety net, environment ect.

    Why not explore that approach?

    Bernie Sanders said last nite that there was a potential for 100 billion in tax revenue by going after Cayman shelters and other offshore havens.
    Why not add that to the mix?

    Closing the shared interest loophole that allows the hedge fund guys who make annual incomes of billions,but only pay capital gains rates....go after that.
    Mitt's in that group.

    I just think we need solid analysis that would verify that the total tax hit would be borne by the top 2%, even without rates going up....I can live with that.

    The whole nordquist pledge is an issue,but if you work with Boehner to go around it, it gives everyone some room to move.

    Call me crazy,but I think we need to avoid being so entrenched and focused on the table tax rates while ignoring the truely more important ''effective'' tax rates.

    Raise effective rates on the top 2%...that should be the battle cry!

    •  if closing the current loopholes for the 2% is (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Hawkjt, OldDragon

      really big enough to fix the problem, then you have some good ideas here.

      I don't think it will be enough, but I'd like to see some data & alanysis of this proposal.

      Effective tax rates is truly the key - and I want to see them go up to the Clinton levels for incomes over $250,000 (and maybe go even higher at incomes over $1 million).  And I want them to stay about where they are or go up a bit for incomes between $100,000 and $250,000.  And, if possible, go down below $100,000.

      Corporate taxes have to go up - not to the 35% statutory rate, but higher than the effective rates they pay today.

      And estate taxes have to go back up.  We had no business giving the Walton and Romney families such a big windfall last time around.

    •  Yet that is (0+ / 0-)

      not what they are suggesting.  They are suggesting cuts to "entitlements"  Let the lazy poor earn it! i their battle cry.  So... yes, if the proposal would be let's maintain the tax cuts on income and look into closing loopholes and tax shelters that aid only the richest amongst us then we should be open for it.  But if the proposal remains save the tax cuts by soaking the poor - and the republicans have not shown any willingness to move off of that then Hell no!

      "You have attributed conditions to villainy that simply result from stupidity"

      by newfie on Fri Nov 09, 2012 at 08:03:18 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  math? (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      maryabein, jds1978, Angie in WA State

      If you want math, here's the math:

      The Bush tax cuts cost about $4 trillion over 10 years.

      Without the Bush tax cuts, we're pretty close to balanced budget (not quite there, but pretty close.)

      All of the plausible loopholes put together are about $1 trillion. The top of the Bush tax cuts are $800 billion.

      Now, the Republicans and much of the media want to pretend that raising $1 trillion in loopholes (that will be reinserted in five years) will pay for $4 trillion in marginal rate cuts.

      The loophole closing doesn't come close to paying for the rate cuts.

      •  Our deficit this (0+ / 0-)

        year is 1 trillion. The Bush cuts come to less than 400 billion/yr. The top 2% portion of that along with the estate tax is 110 billion.

        So, if we negogiate strictly for the top 2% rates to go to 39.6%, and reversal of the estate tax holiday,we garner 110billion....is that enough?

        So, are you suggesting letting the tax cuts expire for all taxpayers to get to that 400 billion number?
        The CBO says that will send us into a recession,if coupled with the spending cuts,with unemployment soaring to over 9%....is this the solution we seek?

        If the loopholes total 100 billion/yr,and the raising of rates on the top 2% will come to 80 billion/yr....which is preferable?

        Clearly,you are suggesting that all the cuts should expire,which will be a big hit on our economy,immediately,with middle class family paying an additional 4k this next year.
        That math would kill any chance of a recovery for at least 3 years.

        •  Are you aware the US Senate has ALREADY passed (0+ / 0-)

          a bill to reduce rates on lower and middle class earners, which the US House could bring to the Floor and vote on in a single week - and the President has already said he will sign....

          Which can occur the week following New Years Day, after those Bush Tax Cuts expire - as the REPUBLICANS planned for them to do when they passed them by Reconcilliation in 2001 and 2003.


          "I like paying taxes...with them, I buy Civilization" -- me

          by Angie in WA State on Fri Nov 09, 2012 at 10:33:50 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

    •  unfortunately, basic math does not make (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      jds1978, Boris49, Angie in WA State

      any of what you propose possible...

      in other words, those are GOP talking points that were eviscerated during the campaign...

      why are we even discussing them again?

      "Small Businesses Don't Build Levees" - Melissa Harris Perry

      by justmy2 on Fri Nov 09, 2012 at 08:11:41 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  It's the capital gains taxes (0+ / 0-)

      Raising effective rates on top 2% is fine, but it doesn't raise much revenue.  And it doesn't take away the fundamental, serious problem of the unfairness of our tax code.

      Why do middle class wages get taxed at 20%, while income from dividends and capital gains get taxed at 15%?  That's ridiculous, and fundamentally unfair.

      If we simply let the tax cuts expire, dividends are taxed like regular income.  And capital gains go back to 20%.

      Why should people who are earning real wages pay 20%, while folks like Romney pay 15% on their investments.  And that's 15% of their "adjusted" income.  If you factor in all of the tax avoidance from retirement accounts, munis, MLP's, real estate and just general accounting shenanigans, the wealthy probably pay closer to 5%.

      Let the tax cuts expire!  Then we can renegotiate on behalf of the middle class.

    •  Were you not paying attention during the campaign? (0+ / 0-)

      If we take out EVERY SINGLE 'loophole' and deduction in the Tax Code, it won't raise enough revenue to fix squat.

      There is simply not enough there, there.

      Additionally, while the #GOP and it's members have been ranting and bitching that US Tax Rates are "at a historic high!!!!" --- they are fools and liars on most things, do you seriously think they are right about this??? -- because they are NOT.

      See this (non-Wikipedia site) link for the chart on the historical tax rates in the US from 1913 (the year Income Tax was added to US constitution as an amendment, along with the creation of the Federal Reserve) to 2011: http://taxfoundation.org/...

      The same info in a handy .pdf you can download for reference: http://taxfoundation.org/...

      To wit:

      1943 to 1963, the highest rates on top earners were from 88% to 94%. The income this rate applies to does vary from year to year, but it's generally over 200K.

      Today's top rate? 35%.

      Do you see how the lies of the Republicans have made people confused about what an appropriate level of taxation is, to put the nation on a good, solid, stable fiscal footing - and STILL allow for tremendous growth?

      We NEED a higher tax rate on top earners, to stabilize and support a vibrant Middle Class - who will spend, spend, spend the nation back into black ink via tax revenues from all that spending (which will be creating JOBS, JOBS, JOBS, by the way).


      "I like paying taxes...with them, I buy Civilization" -- me

      by Angie in WA State on Fri Nov 09, 2012 at 10:30:51 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  Who says they're not gracious? (6+ / 0-)

    You know of course, when push comes to shove, they will happily offer Obama a trade:

    We'll let you eviscerate Medicare and Social Security in exchange for you giving us the tax breaks we want for the rich.
    The only real drama is whether Obama will graciously accept.

    If he does, this will have been the least consequential election of our lifetime.

    Toto, I've a feeling we're not in Kansas anymore

    by Minerva on Fri Nov 09, 2012 at 07:30:28 AM PST

  •  Well that makes it simple. (5+ / 0-)

    Fiscal cliff it is. Moving on to other business...

    "Reality has a well-known liberal bias." - Stephen Colbert

    by Rob Dapore on Fri Nov 09, 2012 at 07:35:27 AM PST

  •  Please please please Mr. President (4+ / 0-)

    ...spend some political capital on this.

  •  Boehner has a limited window to (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    ferg, jds1978

    negotiate a deal:  between now and New Year's.  

    Afterwards, he will re-enter Congress with 10 fewer members of Congress and 2 fewer Senators.  

    The deal is simple:  he agrees to a bill to extend the middle class tax cuts and doesn't insist on the upper income tax cut extensions.  He can tell his caucus that Obama won and he is emboldened. Obama will gladly take the blame.

    Boehner then agrees to not mess with the debt ceiling, fully fund Obamacare, education, infrastructure and green job projects.

    Obama agrees to restore some defense cuts.  Both parties agree to find more medicare savings (after all, what incentive do Democrats have to help seniors at the expense of everyone else when they voted for Romney and the Ryan plan?)

    Obama and Boehner also reach an understanding on corporate tax rate cuts in exchange for loop hole closings.

    That's the deal he can take.  Otherwise, he goes off the cliff.

    Alternative rock with something to say: http://www.myspace.com/globalshakedown

    by khyber900 on Fri Nov 09, 2012 at 07:40:00 AM PST

  •  Jed, I'm surprised at you. (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    kj in missouri, Words In Action

    If we'd all just simply voted Romney in, we'd have instant "magic" revenue, because all the world stock markets would've been so ecstatic, there would've been an instant boom across the planet.

    Voilà! Magic revenue!

    "The ignorant mind, with its infinite afflictions, passions, and evils, is rooted in the three poisons. Greed, anger, and delusion." - Bodhidharma

    by hopesprings on Fri Nov 09, 2012 at 07:40:42 AM PST

  •  Please, Mr. President (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Words In Action, Steve Magruder

    . . . show all of us who voted for you that you learned from previous batterings not to play nice with the wackjob opposition. We have all the leverage, the fiscal cliff isn't actually a fiscal cliff, the debt ceiling OF COURSE will be raised - we will pay our due debts - and the Republicans lost big. This first year of the second term is when to go in HARD. How do we tell Obama and the Dems that? How do we exert pressure? I'm nervous that Obama will revert to his former "grand bargain" bullshite. Let the dam' tax cuts expire!

  •  New leadership come January (3+ / 0-)

    Did everyone forget that Speaker and Leader elections take place soon.  What if both turtle and supertan are kicked out.

    I see no reason to bargin with these guys

  •  As delusional and/or dishonest as this seems (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    maryabein, Words In Action

    It's actually smart politics from a modern RW perspective, as it WORKS. Creating and promoting an alternate RW reality has helped push the debate rightward and gotten both indies and Dems to at least partly accept the premise.

    I.e. they're playing the refs (media), they're playing the public, they're playing Dems. And it works. This is smart, if shameless, politics.

    "Liberty without virtue would be no blessing to us" - Benjamin Rush, 1777

    by kovie on Fri Nov 09, 2012 at 07:41:46 AM PST

  •  Perhaps a bake sale or a car wash? (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Words In Action, jds1978

    We gave the Romney campaign hundreds of millions of dollars and all we got was this stupid t-shirt! - The Koch Brothers.

    by kitebro on Fri Nov 09, 2012 at 07:42:43 AM PST

  •  This isn't Thelma & Louise - it's Dukes of Hazzard (3+ / 0-)

    This "fiscal cliff" we're driving over isn't a suicide leap. If the tax rates for everybody go back up, that's probably worse than just having them go up for the top tier, but it's better than what we're facing now. The defense cuts won't affect our readiness one bit - the current DoD spending is already aligning with the possibility and trust me, there's a ton of fat to be cut out. I'm more concerned about the "discretionary" cuts but they're not unamanageable given the right administration, and we've got this.

    This is not Thelma and Louse going over the cliff. It's Bo and Luke taking the General Lee on a leap between two mounds of dirt. They'll shake off Mitch "Boss Hogg" McConnell and John "Rosco Coltrane Jr" Boehner. The suspension may take a bit of a pounding with the rough landing on the other side but we'll end up upright and speeding on our way to a better future.

    Some people are intolerant, and I CAN'T STAND people like that. -- Tom Lehrer

    by TheCrank on Fri Nov 09, 2012 at 07:43:32 AM PST

  •  Give Boehner What He Wants (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    mrblifil, redacted stew, Boris49

    Offer him a 28% top rate by treating capital gains and dividends as ordinary income.  That is exactly what he is asking for, lowered rated by closing "loopholes".

  •  Legalized Marijuana is new revenue (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Words In Action, jds1978

    if you tax it.

    About time republicans agreed with me.

    Boneheads.

    The path of the righteous man is beset on all sides by the inequities of the selfish and the tyranny of evil men.

    by xxdr zombiexx on Fri Nov 09, 2012 at 07:45:48 AM PST

    •  Not just Republicans. (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      jds1978

      The Obama administration has been about draconian as anyone on marijuana.

      Purging predominantly minority voters and requiring them to present IDs to vote in the face of VIRTUALLY NON-EXISTENT VOTER FRAUD is RACISM! I hereby declare all consenting Republicans RACISTS until they stand up and object to these practices!

      by Words In Action on Fri Nov 09, 2012 at 08:05:31 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Yup. Obama threw the medical marijuana crowd (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Words In Action

        to the GOP dogs to alleviate their focus on fast-n0Furious.

        Pure and simple.

        Just highlights how this issue is purely political and NONE of the decisions at the federal level about marijuana have ANYTHING to do with facts: its all about power.

        The path of the righteous man is beset on all sides by the inequities of the selfish and the tyranny of evil men.

        by xxdr zombiexx on Fri Nov 09, 2012 at 09:52:36 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

  •  Voodoo economics: more like Zombie economics (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Words In Action, Steve Magruder

    The notion that one can increase government revenue by decreasing taxes was accurately called Voodoo economics by George H.W. Bush a few lifetimes ago. He recognized that the idea was absurd, like any sentient being should. Yet he swallowed his integrity for a chance to be Vice President, and disavowed his own accurate analysis.

    Since that time, this truly terrible and completely fraudulent idea keeps coming back to life as the first commandment of Republican 'economic theory'. It's proven fraudulent again and again by exploding Federal deficits. Yet, like a zombie, it keeps lurching back to life, no matter how many times it's killed by reality.

    I guess we need to shoot it in the head?

    •  GHW Bush swiped it from Ayn Rand (0+ / 0-)

      He didn't mean quite the same thing by it, but on the whole it's one of the few things that addle-brained harpy was right about: saying something is so doesn't make it so.

      If it's
      Not your body,
      Then it's
      Not your choice
      And it's
      None of your damn business!

      by TheOtherMaven on Fri Nov 09, 2012 at 10:26:25 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  Mad Math (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Words In Action

    Boehner has adopted Romney/Ryan's Faith-based deficit reduction plan and all the Mad Math and Fatuous Logic inherent in it.


    My country, right or wrong; if right, to be kept right; and if wrong, to be set right.—Carl Schurz
    Give 'em hell, Barry—Me

    by KingBolete on Fri Nov 09, 2012 at 07:49:31 AM PST

  •  Abolish the Capital Gains Tax (3+ / 0-)

    Tax capital gains like regular income.

    •  Except for primary residence sales revenue (0+ / 0-)

      up to $500K.

      Purging predominantly minority voters and requiring them to present IDs to vote in the face of VIRTUALLY NON-EXISTENT VOTER FRAUD is RACISM! I hereby declare all consenting Republicans RACISTS until they stand up and object to these practices!

      by Words In Action on Fri Nov 09, 2012 at 08:04:18 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  This is why Romney pays 14% (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      sethtriggs

      Raising the top marginal tax rate is one of the biggest red herrings I've ever seen.

      The reason the wealthy pay 14 or 15% of their income, while the middle-class pays 20%, is because of this sweetheart deal on capital gains.

      Why should earnings from work be punished, while earnings from  wealth get special status?

      Repealing the capital gains loophole is what we should be focused on.  Raising the top marginal rate is fine, but it won't raise much revenue.  People making more than $200,000 will just convert their wages to capital gains.

  •  This is all posturing (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Zinman, Steve Magruder, sethtriggs

    The wealthy benefactors who now feel so fucked over by Obama's victory are going to react. They have the power to upset the current GOP hierarchy. The questions are will they do so, and what action might they take? Conservatives right now are making public statements but they are not speaking to the public. They are trying to impress the corrupt gullible Billionaire subculture. I agree the Dems have the ace in the hole and can weather across the board tax hikes triggered by deficit brinksmanship. Republicans can't and they are already tipping their hand by stating they won't accept ANY rise in rates. Well if they do nothing there will be a rise in ALL rates. So they have nowhere to go but to capitulate.

  •  This is what Repubs mean by 'meet me halfway' (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Words In Action

    "Since we had our asses handed to us on Tuesday, we're willing to accept a smaller tax giveaway for our Wall St masters. In exchange we wont blow up the world."

  •  The President Needs to Start Explaining Now..... (3+ / 0-)

    So, over on Red State (I admit I wanted to see what they were saying about their, "Landslide"), the tea party crowd is advocating sending us all over the cliff.

    Their thinking is it will sink Obama with the country since it will hurt everyone, and it will ruin the economy, which I guess will revert everyone to conservatism? I know-it's bizarro world.

    My point, though, is that the President needs to get out in front of this and make it clear that people need to be calling their representatives, reminding them that there was an election, and demanding that they act in good faith on behalf of their constituents. When the President goes to the people; people get it. He just can't wait.

  •  Is there any point (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Words In Action, Steve Magruder

    in putting pressure on my republican representative Ileana Ros-Lehtinen? If she is smart, she should pay attention, 47% of CUBAN-Americans voted for Obama.  Some of them obviously also voted for her, THIS TIME.  Maybe a viable democratic candidate should threaten to run against her, so she can start actually representing her increasingly BLUE district.  

    It's not easy being a Floridian: PS I'm a lawYER now; no longer a lawSTUDENT.

    by lawstudent922 on Fri Nov 09, 2012 at 07:55:36 AM PST

  •  Unfortunately even on MSNBC too many talking heads (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Words In Action, sethtriggs

    are already treating the fiscal cliff as THE END OF LIFE ON EARTH AS WE KNOW IT. Something that must be avoided NO MATTER WHAT THE PRICE. A few of them need to read Paul Krugman today. Or take a cold shower.

  •  If we don't get the tax plan we voted for, (0+ / 0-)

    whether or not we have to go over the cliff to get it, and without having to bargain anything for it, then Obama will have failed us. He and everyone else knows that we elected him to raise the top tax to the Clinton level of 39.6%, while lowering the bracket to start at $250K.

    (While he's at it, he should add more brackets on top and address the capital gains rate and estate taxes...)

    There is absolutely no reason that Obama can't or shouldn't put that in Boehner's face and force HIM to explain to the American people why he won't respect the voters' wishes. If that's not an argument Obama can win, heaven help us.

    Purging predominantly minority voters and requiring them to present IDs to vote in the face of VIRTUALLY NON-EXISTENT VOTER FRAUD is RACISM! I hereby declare all consenting Republicans RACISTS until they stand up and object to these practices!

    by Words In Action on Fri Nov 09, 2012 at 07:58:45 AM PST

  •  Democrats can sell this if they don't get stupid. (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Words In Action

    That's a lot to ask of any group of elected officials in DC, but, just for the sake of argument, let's assume that the political stupidity gene refrains from expressing itself for a while:

    The Democrats have a great class warfare argument:

    "We should not be at war with the middle class.  They are the people who do the work and they are the people who create the jobs with their purchases.

    We should get out their way and let them succeed.  We want them to succeed. We want to cheer for new millionaires -- people who have worked the right way, done the right things, and hired a lot of their neighbors into good jobs.

    We also don't want to be at war with rich folks. We just think they should contribute as much to the country as the middle class does.  It's not that way right now.  Rich folks don't pay payroll taxes on all of their income like middle class people.  They get all manner of tax breaks just for being rich and that's not right.  Come on, guys.  You're rich. You don't need special breaks on the backs of people who are trying to become rich like you and you don't need special breaks on the backs of the people whose work helped to make you rich."

    Or something like that.

    LG: You know what? You got spunk. MR: Well, Yes... LG: I hate spunk!

    by dinotrac on Fri Nov 09, 2012 at 07:59:09 AM PST

  •  Will Obama pick Geithner & Emmanuel again, (0+ / 0-)

    or will he follow through on his campaign rhetoric and defend the middle class this time? That's essentially the test he is facing with the fiscal cliff. Can he learn from his mistakes?

    Purging predominantly minority voters and requiring them to present IDs to vote in the face of VIRTUALLY NON-EXISTENT VOTER FRAUD is RACISM! I hereby declare all consenting Republicans RACISTS until they stand up and object to these practices!

    by Words In Action on Fri Nov 09, 2012 at 08:02:53 AM PST

  •  Exactly! (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    SycamoreRich

    First, Dubyah's tax give-aways expire and sequestration takes effect.  After that, Congress passes legislation restoring the old rates on incomes of less than $250-200k retroactively to Jan. 1.  In that environment, perhaps the 'pubs will be willing to have a rational discussion about tax and spending changes.

    "The test of our progress is not whether we add to the abundance of those who have much. It is whether we provide enough to those who have little. " --Franklin D. Roosevelt

    by jg6544 on Fri Nov 09, 2012 at 08:04:29 AM PST

    •  Amen! (0+ / 0-)

      That way all of those sweetheart deals for the wealthy expire.

      Capital gains go back to 20%, and dividends are taxed as income, as they should be.

      And we make some real progress on deficit reduction, without having to kick old people off of Medicare.

  •  Remember 2011? (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    sethtriggs

    That's what 2013 is going to look like.

    Only 2014 will see more Democrats sweep into Congress, unlike 2010.

    "What cliff?  I don't see a cliff.  Drive on!"

    Readers & Book Lovers Pull up a chair! You're never too old to be a Meta Groupie

    by Limelite on Fri Nov 09, 2012 at 08:06:00 AM PST

  •  President Obama (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    mithra

    Mr. President, we elected you to lead our country. You are the Commander in Chief, not the compromiser in chief. Tell Boehner to go back to bed and we will wake him up when the tax cuts for the rich expire.

  •  Who the hell is President-Elect Romney? (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    sethtriggs
  •  We're going to see a shift in the language... (0+ / 0-)

    I heard it in President Obama's acceptance speech;

    You elected us to focus on your jobs, not ours. And in the coming weeks and months, I am looking forward to reaching out and working with leaders of both parties to meet the challenges we can only solve together. Reducing our deficit. Reforming our tax code. Fixing our immigration system. Freeing ourselves from foreign oil. We’ve got more work to do.
    A shift in rhetoric from the Buffet Rule and anything that is seen as a tax 'hike' and toward 'reforming' through changes to loopholes, shelters, perhaps an increase in the capital gains tax (that, right there would get the 1% contributing more of their fair share).

    Not an expert, but that's my hunch.

    who doesn't want to wear the ribbon?!?

    by redacted stew on Fri Nov 09, 2012 at 08:09:00 AM PST

  •  I've Had My Say in a Semi-Serious Way (0+ / 0-)

    Readers & Book Lovers Pull up a chair! You're never too old to be a Meta Groupie

    by Limelite on Fri Nov 09, 2012 at 08:09:11 AM PST

  •  Republican message: We're still (0+ / 0-)

    willing to accept the ransom we've been demanding to keep up from cutting the arm off of Mr. Economy.  (Oh, and by the way, Mr. President, thanks for treating us as good-faith negotiating partners instead of felons engaging in extortion. That makes this shake down a WHOLE lot easier!)

  •  New Revenue Plan? (0+ / 0-)

    Three words. Congressional Bake Sales.

    ...strength is not without humility. It's weakness and untreatable disease, and war is always the choice of the chosen who will not have to fight. Bono

    by Peperpatch on Fri Nov 09, 2012 at 08:11:36 AM PST

  •  Let the Bush tax cuts expire; (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    bear83

    There is no cliff. Cliff is a misnomer.  Stop the fearmongering:

    Ignoring Obama’s mandate

    The president campaigned on ending the Bush tax cuts and won. House Republicans may not have gotten the message
    By Steve Kornacki

    Now that the election is over, the political world’s attention is shifting to the fiscal “cliff,” a catchy term that’s a misnomer in that it suggests a sudden, catastrophic outcome if no deal is reached before scheduled tax hikes and spending cuts go into effect at the end of the year. In fact, as economist Chad Stone has argued, the cliff is really more of a slope, with the expiration of lower payroll tax rates and the Bush tax cuts and the implementation of Pentagon cuts set to gradually take effect as next year unfolds.
    http://www.salon.com/...
  •  Let all the tax cuts expire (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    bear83, mithra

    There isn't enough money in the over-$200k income to make a dent in the deficit.

    In order to get out of this mess, everyone is going to have to contribute, and that includes the middle class.

    (-5.50,-6.67): Left Libertarian
    Leadership doesn't mean taking a straw poll and then just throwing up your hands. -Jyrinx

    by Sparhawk on Fri Nov 09, 2012 at 08:12:56 AM PST

  •  Republicans actually placed (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    bear83, mithra, jds1978

    themselves on shaky ground.  The Bush Tax Cuts expire and the Military cuts are automatic.  The only leverage they have is the debt limit.  And the last time they used that, they came off looking like irresponsible kooks.

  •  Republicans made the stupid fiscal cliff. They (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    bear83, mithra

    begged and dreamed for cuts. Oh, beautiful cuts. And, then, Obama forced them to follow through on their own stupidity. So, now they have to fall off it, unless...maybe they get some pixie dust...and belief...two things Republicans have in abundance. I say we encourage Boehner to go for it:


    Just doing my part to piss off right wing nuts, one smart ass comment at a time.

    by tekno2600 on Fri Nov 09, 2012 at 08:20:59 AM PST

  •  Lunch?? (0+ / 0-)

    TOTALLY IRRELEVANT... That's ALL OF BSM News (Cluster-Fox)... They should just DISAPPEAR..

  •  Never say "President-elect Romney." Halloween is (0+ / 0-)

    over. I don't need any more nightmares about the apocalypse that would have ensued from having a messianic freak with his finger on the nuclear button and a lying, no-thing, megalomanic as the VP. We sure helped America dodge a bullet...and as I keep telling the dwellers of Wingnuttia, "You're welcome!"

    Just doing my part to piss off right wing nuts, one smart ass comment at a time.

    by tekno2600 on Fri Nov 09, 2012 at 08:27:38 AM PST

    •  I prefer the term Pretend-President Romney. McCain (0+ / 0-)

      also went through a Pretend-President phase after the election where he saw fit to comment on Obama's new helicopter and how if he had been president, why they wouldn't have needed a new one. Leonardo da Vinci's model would have been just fine with him.

      So, this is getting to be a regular thing where Republicans lose and then demand the policies they would have wanted had they won. Well, I just got a news flash for Republicans from the Census Bureau:

      Loserville.

      Population:

      You!

      Just doing my part to piss off right wing nuts, one smart ass comment at a time.

      by tekno2600 on Fri Nov 09, 2012 at 08:38:09 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  The Senate already passed a tax cut bill (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    tekno2600, 88kathy, sethtriggs

    extending the tax cuts for income below $250K. Democrats don't need to do anything now.

    It's up to Boehner - either

    A. Take up the Senate bill and pass it with all the Democrats and 25 or more Republicans, or

    B. Drive off the cliff and face the same choice in January.

    Filibuster reform now. No more Gentleman's agreements.

    by bear83 on Fri Nov 09, 2012 at 08:28:00 AM PST

  •  "Increase revenue" -- How? (0+ / 0-)

    Isn't this just another way of saying the GOP is "willing" (i.e., eager) to privatize federal assets -- such as national resources-rich land (national parks and BLM administered land?)

    I'm sure the oil companies would be quite happy to buy (cheap, of course) land presently owned by the federal government, so they can drill-baby-drill (or frack).

  •  The rich got the American Dream but won't chip (0+ / 0-)

    in for America.

    Some do sacrifice for America, but the rich freak if they are asked to chip in.

    Hey, GOP - Get In, Sit Down, Shut up, & Hang On!

    by 88kathy on Fri Nov 09, 2012 at 08:33:31 AM PST

  •  Want the rich to deal? Tax wealth not income. (0+ / 0-)
  •  #!!*% Congressional budget office (0+ / 0-)

    Everything would be fine if they could just get rid of that darn Congressional budget office, and replace them with sensible conservatives or witch doctors.

  •  True love republicans (0+ / 0-)

    Republicans remind me of me in 1985. I had married a stripper/whore and we had two kids together. Nobody accused me of being wise in 1985. Anyway, I just knew she loved me. She had to. Ok, so she cheated on me then abandoned the kids and me and we haven't heard a single word from her since and she was banging half the town, but truly, can anyone deny that was a true display of real love?
    I like to think I'm a little wiser now..

  •  Gloria Borger on CNN has said the same shit... (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    mithra, sethtriggs

    In fact I've heard her say it a couple times.  She says that maybe one way to get to an agreement on taxes would be to take Mitt Romney's proposal to cut tax rates and cap deductions.  What fucking planet is she fucking living on?  First off, a better idea than the guy you won 332 electoral votes is to use the guy's ideas who lost and only got 206.  Sounds like just what the majority of Americans just voted for.  Putting that aside, she just confirmed that these pundits don't pay attention to math and reality just like the GOP.  Mitt's plan blows a big fucking hole in the deficit while at the same time raising taxes on the middle and low class and cutting taxes for the rich.  WTF?  I gave her a pass the first time she said it because it was election night and I thought she may just need some sleep.  But then I heard her repeat this "great idea" again last night.  We really do deserve better than what we get out of the MSM.  We really do.  

  •  Waiting for Obama to say "climate change" (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    mithra

    If Obama allows the Republicans to define the future in terms of money rather than the physical reality of nature, we are heading for disaster. All the talk about the fiscal cliff, deficits, debts and entitlements is only about the relationships we have among ourselves as human beings: who gets what, who owes what to whom.

    The superstorm Sandy should have put all these discussions into the perspective of the real physical planet, which is growing warmer each year. Of what use is medicare when electricity fails and hospitals have to be abandoned, as in New York less than ten days ago? Of what use are jobs and social security when food supplies break down, as on the Jersey shore and in the Rockaways?
    This storm is a glimpse of what awaits all of us on this planet when temperatures continue to go higher and higher.

    Just before the election the Guardian broke the story that the Obama team had decided in 2009 to drop all mention of climate change and use words like "Green jobs" and "green energy" to justify the investments in solar, wind and improved EPA regulations. Okay, that may have been a necessary component in the successful strategy that did defeat Romney/Ryan on Tuesday. The problem is, however, that the president's failure to educate the public on the reality of climate change means that most people - even on this site - do not yet understand how global warming renders all other issues irrelevant. Even worse, the President's most reliable environmentalist supporters, like the Sierra Club and the Environmental Defense Fund, have gone along with the tactical silence on climate change.

    Now that Obama has safely been re-elected, he must set an agenda based on the physical realities of nature. He cannot let himself get bogged down in endless wrangling over money - the numbers that will really end modern civilization are the 440 parts per million of CO2in the atmosphere reached in the Arctic last May. This is a rise from an estimated 275 ppm inthe pre-industrial era and is higher than any time in the past 800,000 years.

    If my soldiers were to begin to think, not one would remain in the ranks. -Frederick the Great

    by Valatius on Fri Nov 09, 2012 at 08:44:02 AM PST

  •  Has Varney Barney Changed His Name To Fiscal (0+ / 0-)

    Cliff?

    The Republican Party is Simply a Coalition of Greed and Hate

    by kerplunk on Fri Nov 09, 2012 at 08:56:57 AM PST

  •  Let the Bush Tax Cuts Expire (0+ / 0-)

    Why not just let them expire?  

    Once the Bush Tax Cuts are expired, then they're dead.

    Dems should be ready on that day with new tax-cut proposals for the middle class, and proposals to restore whatever defense spending they think should be restored.  

  •  Please RT far & wide: #LetTheTaxCutsExpire (0+ / 0-)

    on Twitter.

    Like this:


    "I like paying taxes...with them, I buy Civilization" -- me

    by Angie in WA State on Fri Nov 09, 2012 at 09:56:08 AM PST

Subscribe or Donate to support Daily Kos.

Click here for the mobile view of the site