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In 2008 after Barrack Obama won the election many on this site said that the GOP were in their death throes as a party. In 2012 we see how that sentiment was hopeful but still delusional.

Since the election there have been some posts and comments made that we need to feel empathy towards those Republicans that believed their own lies. I also see posts saying that there is no way that the Republicans can grab the Latino vote, especially with the GOP imploding due to internal civil war. To these posts and comments I say do not let your hopes and dreams delude you.

Below I will share my personal interaction with a close friend, who is a staunch Republican, and why what he has told me after the election should shock you out of your 2008 delusion.

“The first time someone shows you who they are, believe them.”
― Maya Angelou

Let me give you a little back story about my friend. My friend, lets call him Jay, grew up a Catholic fundamentalist with me, an Atheist raised Jewish, from 1st grade until now where we are both 29. We were more like brothers than friends because from 1st till 5th grade we were in the same class together. Every Christmas he has invited me, and later on my significant other, over for his family's Christmas party and recently I was a part of his wedding party (his biological brother was his best man).

Jay is currently my only conservative friend. The rest were just associates who were easy to shake off because the conflicting personalities didn't have a cushion of shared personal history. This is important because in the months before the election Jay and his wife started to post politically on Face Book. Normally I am the type of person who will read a post and just grumbly ignore it, however, this was the time around the campaign where Romney was in full lie mode and I had, had enough of Romney's lies and Jay's hypocrisy.

With utmost respect I began to post responses back, and then full posts of my own. I made sure each post I made did not personally attack him and only broke down his hypocrisy and the lies Romney was making. I even went out of my way when I began to let Jay know that in any post I make I am not mad at him and was enjoying our debate. He agreed.

The posts were interesting and unnerving, however it was the posts made after the election that are the most important and provide the most learning for me and for all of you.

After the election Jay wrote:

"A few positives for the night:

1. ~ Only 2,000 more voters voted for Obama, so there is no clear mandate for his policies.

2. The House and Senate composition barely changed, so his policies can be further stonewalled.

3. No one can claim over the next 4 years that Romney's policies caused anything that occurs."

I wrote back:
1) Sorry bush won less of the popular vote and your guys said he had a mandate. This is a mandate.
2) So you admit that republican stonewall Obama from enacting any legislation. Thank you for finally admitting that republicans are not bipartisan
3) So you voted for a man that you knew or know would have had policies you don't want to be associated with?
What Jay said next is what you all need to pay attention to:
Never said they were bipartisan. I'm not trying to compromise, I've got an agenda here. The war is not yet over.
I responded by saying:
I did not realize we were at war... Wow. That is sad. I thought we were all Americans... Continue to think you are at war with most of the American people and the more seats of power your party will lose. We want to work with you guys, but like any relationship we need to have compromise. It was just an election, not a war....
Jay responded:
What else would you call an oppressive force attempting to overwrite and overrun the values and principles of your country?

If I were the only one left.....I'd still do it. No reason to compromise my principles because of everyone else.

I know this is just one person, but I believe he is not an outlier. I think his beliefs are those of a majority of the Republican Party.

They are at war, at war with us! Their beliefs are so strong you could try and help them and they will think you are trying to hurt them. This occurred with anything Obama tried to push forward in his previous term. Let us not continue this delusion of having empathy for them, they do not have empathy for me, for you or for us. They are at war with us and as such even after this election it is time for us to step up and help them be pushed off of the relevancy cliff that they created.

Again I quote Maya Angelou "The first time someone shows you who they are, believe them." Jay and his fellow Republicans have shown me many times that they believe we are the enemy, that they are at war with us and that as the enemy they will do anything, even kill, to get rid of us. Let's use this information to help us not be as complacent as we were in 2008 and help push them out of what little power they hold.

Mon Nov 12, 2012 at  6:44 AM PT: Update:

I woke up this morning surprised to find my post on the community spotlight and recommended lists.

Back to the main point of the post. Republicans love to be the Martyr. My friend Jay said: "If I were the only one left.....I'd still do it."  They thrive when they lose because they have such a strong persecution complex. We on the other hand are, as tofumagoo below has said more likely to live and let live. Our side does not see this as a war as my friend does and most likely other Republicans do too.

I want this post to help those of you who think we can ever compromise with people who in Jay's words: " I'm not trying to compromise, I've got an agenda here." believe them and realize they do not want to compromise. They believe they are at war with us and as such we need to find ways to fight them back even when there are no elections going on.

Here are some ideas I have on fighting them:

1) Democrats Hire, Republicans Fire: Lets start funding progressive companies that will showcase the differences between Republicans and Democrats. We could also begin this movement by helping those fired by companies like Pappa Johns find new and better jobs while pointing out that we are sorry that their Republican boss fired them.

2) No Child Failed for Profit. Use the test companies propaganda against them. The main corporate interest in public education right now are test companies. Many are owned by news media companies hence why many know test companies make a lot of money but not the details. Did you know that all standardized tests can be created and implemented for free? I am not lying, with the technology we have we could destroy all private test companies profit margin and thus help save public education.

3) Do not back down if you see a post on Facebook. My friend Jay and his wife are not posting anything on Facebook politically now. Might not stay this way in the long run but for now they have not. Why have they stopped? They stopped because they learned that if they post their beliefs on FB with the hopes of changing other peoples beliefs that they will now have to deal with other people responding in ways they do not like. After I began posting, other friends of mine, and theirs began commenting too.

These are just a smidgen of my ideas. I will read over everyones comments and answer and questions I see there. Please share yours.


Originally posted to thoughtspitter on Sun Nov 11, 2012 at 05:57 PM PST.

Also republished by Community Spotlight.

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  •  Tip Jar (270+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
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  •  35% on income over $250,000 versus 39.6% (79+ / 0-)

    on income over $250,000. Apparently, that is the difference between the traditional values and principles of our country, and that is worth fighting a war over.

    If traditional American values are threatened by that, then our values already went down the drain decades ago, because for almost the entire 20th century, the top rate was much higher.

    Three percentage points in the tax code affecting the top two percent of Americans. That is the entirety of the war. Get rid of that, and both sides can get along.

  •  I suppose this is true (20+ / 0-)

    but I'm just wondering what you want to do about this?  The reality is that until the GOP starts to seriously suffer at the polls as a direct result of their extremism, I just don't see how you avoid negotiating with them.  The basic reality is that they appear to have a political base that is perfectly happy to live in a netherworld--cocooned away inside Fox News and talk radio--until the off-year midterm elections when they can maintain control of the House and state legislatures.  Basically, what needs to happen is that the Democrats need to develop the same kind of enthusiasm and GOTV operations they have in presidential election years.

    •  I'm not sure how, but somehow, Republicans (9+ / 0-)

      in the early 2000s were able to steamroll Democrats on legislative initiatives, even in the absence of complete control over both executive and legislative branches. Somehow -- I think especially on tax cuts -- Republicans were able to cobble together a broad enough coalition that even their lack of a filibuster-proof majority in the Senate did not impede the legislation from going through.

      I suppose the difference is that for Republicans -- unlike the Democrats -- the filibuster has become an utterly normative and legitimate tool to use on all pieces of legislation, no matter what the issue.

      If Reid can somehow advocate for filibuster reform in the Senate, or if Dems can begin to chip away at the GOP moderates (who seem to be publically distressed at the direction of their party -- at least the moderates in the pundit class), then we might start to get somewhere.

      But there's also that pesky House to deal with. That will take more doing, because after the 2010 victory, the House was gerrymandered out of recognition, giving GOP several bulletproof new congressional districts.

      Have I ever mentioned how stupid I believe the redistricting rules to be? If the party in power can re-draw the boundaries to suit their purposes... then how is that possibly democratic? That's pure "rotten boroughs" stuff.

      Nothing requires a greater effort of thought than arguments to justify the rule of non-thought. -- Milan Kundera

      by Dale on Mon Nov 12, 2012 at 07:38:28 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Even those Democrats who were partisan (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        StrayCat, Dale

        liberals weren't trying to obstruct Bush for its own sake, especially after 9/11. Bush was able to make deals with conservative Dems in Congress to get stuff passed. However, in Bush's second term, the Democratic desire to play nice and be bipartisan had waned (thanks mostly to the titanic assholery of the Republican Congressional leadership), and he didn't get very much of what he wanted.

        Hopefully (hey, could happen) Obama's presidency will play out as the reverse of that, with Republicans seeing electoral losses from obstructionism and the blame for the country's ills increasingly being attached to their refusal to work with the other side causing them to tire of stonewalling. I can hope....

        Visit Lacking All Conviction, your patch of grey on those too-sunny days.

        by eataTREE on Mon Nov 12, 2012 at 12:32:55 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  "Somehow" (0+ / 0-)

        Both the D's and R's get their campaign contributions from the same rich fuckers.

        "Somehow" - the rich fuckers seem to get their way.

        Weird, huh?

        Theater at it's finest


        The Fail will continue until actual torches and pitchforks are set in motion. - Pangolin@kunstler.com

        by No one gets out alive on Mon Nov 12, 2012 at 05:19:12 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

    •  Problem is (4+ / 0-)

      that the GOP will never "seriously suffer at the polls as a direct result of their extremism" because they will always deny that their policies (which they don't consider extreme) were the cause of the suffering. It is always Acorn or voter fraud or the "lamestream media" telling lies that is the problem. The GOP thinks that the reason they failed at the polls was they weren't conservative enough, so they will double down on the obstruction.

      It is impossible to negotiate with another party who is not acting in good faith. The GOP has no intention of compromising nor of following through on any agreements they make. Note their reaction to the looming implementation of the sequester they agreed to two years ago; they are trying to find ways to weasel out of the deal and get additional cuts to programs they don't like leaving military spending untouched.

      I think that we have to find ways to govern without them until they finally marginalize themselves into irrelevance.

      •  The problem I have with that thinking is that (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        SoCalSal

        you end up potentially becoming just as dangerous and reckless as your enemies.  Our democracy is broken.  That's a reality.  But the solution CAN'T be to act undemocratically.  Like the President said in his victory speech, politics is 'hard' and 'messy.'  There aren't going to be easy fixes here.  We've been in a decade long process of taking back our democracy from the right-wing.  We've had set backs, but I believe we're making progress.  But we can't stop now.  We have to keep winning and working until we've legitimately beaten these guys through the democratic process.

        •  I didn't say anything about (0+ / 0-)

          acting undemocratically. I said "govern without them". Particularly since the Republican party is no longer concerned with governance, if we want to actually, you know, govern, we're going to have to find workarounds, yes, within the system that we have, to actually govern.

          I didn't say that we violate our system of government. I just said that we should ignore the Republicans. They have demonstrated adequately that they are not acting in good faith and that they can not be trusted to honor any commitment they might make. We have to do it without them.

    •  negotiating with them is silly (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      ColoTim, magnetics

      hit them over the head until they suffer enough to change their ways.

      there is no working with these people.

      it would be nice if that were not the case, but it is.

      An ambulance can only go so fast - Neil Young

      by mightymouse on Mon Nov 12, 2012 at 08:29:15 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  You fail to recognize something very important. (22+ / 0-)

    You are not most people. Jay is not most people. Less than 20% of the population cares as much about politics as folks like you, me and Jay do. If 30-40% of the population shared Jay's worldview then there might very well be an actual war, or at least major social upheaval. But it's more like 5-10% of the population that takes it as far as he does. He has the sympathy of the broader part of the population that votes Republican, but those folks are more concerned with who will win American Idol than a political election. That doesn't even take into account the large swath of the adult population that can't be bothered to vote.

    There will be no war. Guys like Jay will eventually become irrelevant once the GOP realizes that he and his fellow travelers are no longer useful to them. He'll keep ranting, but then so do 9/11 truthers, UFO kooks and other fringe groups. He'll never come around, true. But eventually it won't matter. He is an outlier in respect to US society, if not in respect to political junkies. Don't make them out to be more important than they really are.

    You can do whatever you want to us, but we're not going to sit here and listen to you badmouth the United States of America.

    by Eric Stratton on Sun Nov 11, 2012 at 06:43:33 PM PST

    •  Maybe. (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      rhetoricus, highacidity

      It depends on the definition of "war".  You have an expansive definition which must involve masses of the population.  What if only the Jays take up arms and start shooting at their preceived enemies.  Given the numbers, I'd say yes, you would have some serious civil war bloodshed going on.

      But I take in the case of this diary the word "war" to define a state of mind among the wingnuts. Yes, right wingers use the metaphor of war to understand their conflict with liberals.  The danger of course is when they move beyond metaphor.  So far, the wolf whistles to commit violence from right winger notables such as Beck or Coulter have not produced mass violence.

      Going a bit off base, but not much,  violence was used against left-OWS, and it mostly came from police in cities controlled by Democrats.

    •  The plutocrats are waging a war. (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      No one gets out alive

      And, despite the election, they are still winning. Wealth (and the power, influence and social destructiveness it conveys) continues to concentrate.

      Until some bold measures are taken to reverse that -- and increasing the upper tax rate 39.6% will NOT do it -- not only is war still being waged upon us, we are still losing every second of every day. We didn't lose so much income and wealth the past three decades by accident. We didn't get swindled in '08 by accident... Everyone except the top 5% lost wealth and suffered reduced income the past 4 years. The top 5% did not. The top 1% even more so. That's no accident. Whether we are in recession, recovery or a bear market doesn't matter. They will thrive while the rest merely survive. Until populist rhetoric translates into aggressive, substantive policy. There are a lot of "separate rules" to be overcome...

      Purging predominantly minority voters and requiring them to present IDs to vote in the face of VIRTUALLY NON-EXISTENT VOTER FRAUD is RACISM! I hereby declare all consenting Republicans RACISTS until they stand up and object to these practices!

      by Words In Action on Mon Nov 12, 2012 at 12:38:42 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  There are two kinds of people. (20+ / 0-)

    Those who think there are two kinds of people and those who do not.

    Generally I think that liberals/progressives don't think that there are two kinds of people. We don't want to see the rich running roughshod over the poor, but we don't want to see the opposite either (my apologies to any followers of Robespierre, Stalin, or Mao). We want to see everyone have a fair chance and support if things don't work out. We are always trying to bargain, convince, and work with the other side. If they would just talk to us surely we can work things out.

    The right tends to think that there are two kinds of people- the moral, enlightened ones like themselves and the evil ones who oppose them. In a war between good and evil there can be no compromise or agreement.

  •  Same thing happened with a very dear, old (17+ / 0-)

    friend and my sister, a liberal married to a fox noise addict.
    They both seem to have gone over to the dark side with their spouses.
    After my last , typical rant in favor of Obamacare, and Obama, in general, while they lamented the burden of purchasing healthcare and how unemployed people are lazy 'cause there are open frackin' jobs in North Dakota, they haven't called or kept previously made plans.

    I know I'll make up, maybe someday, but this is different- it feels different.

    Sort of the "Makers" and the "Takers" argument suits their world view a little too comfortably.  

    I really think the economic  divide is too wide and unfair and they know it, but want to blame me for my situation rather than acknowledge the playing field is tilted heavily in their favor.
    But, that lie won't fly.
    And they know me and my argumentative ass won't let it go, like a dog with a bone.
    All about ownership and definition.

    It's only class war when we are winning.

    Occupy- Your Mind. - No better friend, no worse enemy. -8.75, -6.21<> Bring the Troops Home Yesterday

    by Thousandwatts on Sun Nov 11, 2012 at 06:50:04 PM PST

  •  Values and Principles (22+ / 0-)

    When I read your friend Jay's response,

    What else would you call an oppressive force attempting to overwrite and overrun the values and principles of your country?

        If I were the only one left.....I'd still do it. No reason to compromise my principles because of everyone else.

    the first thing I thought of was Jonathan Haidt's analysis of values in his book, The Righteous Mind. I do recommend the book, but you can get a decent understanding of the contrast between liberal and conservative values by going to the related website. There are links to essays he has written and interviews he has given, including the outstanding one with Bill Moyers.
    What I find most interesting about your friend's comment is how he sees Democrats/liberals being an "oppressive force", or a dominant authority wanting to impose its will on others.  But Haidt indicates that conservatives are the ones who value authority much more than liberals, who are usually willing to "live and let live". So Jay seems to have a bit of a paradox here of anti-authoritarian liberals using their authority to devalue and destroy the authoritarian values (hierarchy, enforcement, structure, etc) that conservatives hold. Either that, or he is projecting traits onto liberals which they, generally speaking, do not strongly exhibit.
    Additionally, Haidt and his fellow researchers have another website, http://www.yourmorals.org/, which allows individuals to examine their own values and principles, and possibly contribute to scientific research as well. Perhaps you might want to take a few of the study questionnaires yourself, and see if you could encourage your friend Jay to do so as well. I suspect there are deeply held values you share as well as ones you don't, and maybe you both will be better able to respect those not shared.
    •  Conservatism is authoritarian (24+ / 0-)

      At the base of conservatism is the belief that man is naturally corrupt, and that left to himself he will do evil things, so he needs to be constrained by a strong authority both physically and spiritually. No bishop, no King, as James I once said.

      The libertarian anti-big-government element of  the Republican message is a smokescreen; conservative leaders have rarely acted to weaken the power of the state over the average citizen. Their libertarianism is only to benefit themselves and their rich friends, I think.

      Liberalism and its "live and let live" philosophy are founded in the belief that man is naturally good, and that left to himself he will do good things. The government is therefore best that governs least. If that sounds like something Ron Paul might say, it is because "liberal"  now implies someone who favors progressive taxation, the regulation of commerce for the common good, and the institution of a welfare state. These things were not originally part of liberalism, and owe their origins in part to socialists and in part to pragmatic conservatives like Otto von Bismarck.

      And Franklin Delano Roosevelt.

      Roosevelt's New Deal was a pragmatic compromise that postponed the existential crisis of capitalism by in calling for a truce in the class struggle. Both capital and labor got a deal they could live with, and the eventual result was the unprecedented prosperity of the 1950's and 1960's.  Then, beginning in Nixon's time, capital began to repudiate their end of the deal.

      •  A perfect summary, thank you. (NT) (3+ / 0-)

        The only thing that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good people to do stuff that doesn't work

        by PatriotismOverProfits on Mon Nov 12, 2012 at 06:43:03 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  The Libertarians that support Republicans (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        greengemini

        refuse to think through the measures passed to take away women's health care choices, to restrict measures that allow people to know what's in their food, their drink and in the air they breathe because all those things are in laws passed by Republicans in government to either impose religious beliefs (anti-abortion and anti-healthcare) or to favor big business interests over small businesses and individuals.  Sure the Libertarians like the ability to own guns, but I'm always amazed that Libertarians will support gun ownership but also support the Republicans who want to "disappear" those who challenge the state.  The logic fails are deep and distressing.

      •  well ... (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        No one gets out alive

        ... it's contradictory, and that is usually my point to righties .... they claim people need to be held in line - that somehow blue collar crime would be out of control otherwise .... but somehow, magically, businesses and leaders are automatically righteous and would never do anything wrong, so therefore, regulation is unnecessary.

        Can't understand the logic there.

        the most comprehensive college hockey resource collegehockeynews.com

        by AdamW on Mon Nov 12, 2012 at 09:55:09 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

    •  Wow. What a contrast. (3+ / 0-)

      You display the best of the "liberal" approach, incorporating science and reason into your comment.  Now compare that to a typical Dittohead response;  a shout of a code word or brief phrase, such as "DEBT!  TAXES! ABORTION!  MUSLIMS! KENYAN!".  Even the longer phrases are nuts, such as "anti-colonialist mindset".  Like that's a bad thing?

      BTW, I think it's or;  "or he is projecting".  Whenever you hear an accusation from a wingnut, look for that exact behavior from them.  I've been hearing a lot of the "they're going to arrest us and throw us in the FEMA camps" lately, so I keep my guns loaded.

      I am become Man, the destroyer of worlds

      by tle on Mon Nov 12, 2012 at 07:15:55 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  A good rebuttal: (21+ / 0-)

    "Sorry, but a person who always gets his way is a dictator. In America, we built our country on compromise. If you'd still like to be one, I recommend investing in a plane ticket."

    Yes, this is a war. They hate our ideas, and that means most of them hate us as well. Some can discern the difference, but don't get your hopes up.

    I fight too.  I'm no coward, and I never back down from an argument. But, when they throw a gish gallop at me or say something that's blatantly false, I merely give them the laugh they deserve. Maybe add an "That's so cute...I just want to give you a hug!"

    “Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity.” - Hanlon's Razor

    by Mister Black on Sun Nov 11, 2012 at 08:45:45 PM PST

  •  The famous "won't compromise my principles" (7+ / 0-)

    As I've heard a guys say, "I'm more afraid of people with too many principle than of people with none".

    Most people I see clinging to their principles like a newborn to his pacifier either do out of 1) stubbornness, or 2) not knowing what they're talking about.

    Like a pacifier, GOPers' principles won't protect or save them, only MAKE them feel secure and protected.

    Digging your heels is the EASIEST and LEAST COURAGEOUS thing. Like when the grocery supervisor told me I couldn't buy beer before 12:00pm on Sunday, even if it was...NON-ALCOHOLIC beer!

    Here is a principle that should supersede any conservative principles: it's for the greater good of the country!

    •  Not to mention (16+ / 0-)

      that the reality is they compromise principles all the time.  

      None of them complained when Romney Etch-a-Sketched himself in the first debate, because he was winning, dammit.   None of them gave two shits about the deficit during the Bush Years, because "deficits don't matter".  Bush ran on an isolationist platform, which was their 'principle' in 2000, and then his supporters were the first to say "why do you hate America" when the "new principle" became "spreading Democracy".  Their principle used to be mandating personal responsibility and expanding the insurance market to curb healthcare costs.  Well, we know where that went.  Their principle used to be to use the free market in a cap and trade system to control carbon emissions, now they don't even believe that temperatures are rising.

      Some principles are harder to shrug off, but they are a very flexible bunch.

    •  On that near-beer issue - I'll bet they were (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      tofumagoo

      choosing to not risk getting in trouble with any liquor authorities over that sale.  It would depend upon the enforcing authority and having a complete knowledge of the law and being willing to stand up in court to prove it, but when I was working for Coors Field in Denver in the "Family Section" where no alcohol was allowed, my rules said no beer, not even non-alcoholic variety, would be allowed, because it was not easy to verify whether in fact it was non-alcoholic.  It was easier to enforce a ban on all beer beverages.  The shop keeper probably felt selling you a six-pack before noon was not worth the hassle if you turned out to work for the ATF equivalent in the state or if you would go and mention to someone who did that you were able to purchase a beer-like beverage.  If I were the shopkeeper, I wouldn't sell it either.  The profit of a six pack isn't worth the risk of losing their liquor license or having to pay the expense in time and legal fees to go defend themselves in court, whether they were in the legal right or not.  Again, it would be good to check the local ordinance; I'll bet near-beer is prohibited the same way real beer is.

  •  tip'd & rec'd. you got it exactly correct. the (8+ / 0-)

    comments espoused by your rw friend (& the rw in general) come from the same mindset that still believes the south won the civil war, so go figure.

    they will never admit their ideas are on the wrong side of history, but then, when have conservatives/reactionaries ever admitted their thinking was amiss?  everyone wants their ideas/behavior to be justified & if that can't be accomplished one way, then try another.  

    conservatives are completely convinced their values are based on sound principles & they are merely the victims of cleverly crafted misrepresentations of their beliefs, even tho countless revolutions & wars have proven otherwise.

    the very fact the rw engages in serial lying as was recently witnessed during the presidential campaign, is evidence of how corrupt their values really are.

  •  Demographics talk fuels complacency (18+ / 0-)

    "Let's just sit back and let the magic demographics do the work for us" seems to be the message I'm getting from lots of posts.

    Yes, Republicans have been waging war in their hearts, war in everything but the shooting. And war's destruction doesn't only come from the shooting.

    Fanatics will do what they can get away with. They will stop only when they see how outnumbered they are.

    Gerrymandering, low turnout, and debates on superficial issues hide our most powerful asset: that fact that Americans are Progressive.

    I've written more about this in Forget Demographics! Obama-won because Americans are progressive.

    The only thing that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good people to do stuff that doesn't work

    by PatriotismOverProfits on Mon Nov 12, 2012 at 05:02:54 AM PST

  •  Eternal Conflict (10+ / 0-)

    Good point raised by this diary.  There is no reason for the Pubs to stand down at this time.  They still control the Congress.  They still have a veto enabled minority in the Senate.  They still have free advertising from Fox.

    Conflict is a human condition.  The fights between the humans who emphasize rational thought and those who emphasize superstitions has been ongoing for all of recorded history.      

  •  Death Throes... (10+ / 0-)

    In any event, I too remember all the premature memorials for the GOP here, don't want to repeat that mistake again.

  •  The apocalyptic tone of one's rhetoric (6+ / 0-)

    Has a lot to do with the religious fervor that drives Republican voters.

    And more importantly how they see BHO as a man, and his background - regardless of his politics. Most of these types may "care" about politics but do not understand it.

    Calling BHO a "socialist" is absurd to socialists, nor is he even a liberal in the McGovern mold. This is not about the man's politics, it's personal.

    If not us ... who? If not here ... where? If not now ... when?

    by RUNDOWN on Mon Nov 12, 2012 at 05:24:51 AM PST

    •  There's an Orwellian quality to the way (4+ / 0-)

      many republicans re-define words and phrases like socialism and class warfare.  I recently read (sorry no link) that some fundamentalists define secularism and atheism as religions.  With these words redefined they then argue that teaching anything secular in the classroom is giving religious preference to a religion.  Contrast that with the effort of some anti-Islamic groups that claim that Islam is not a religion, it's really a fascist ideology and therefore doesn't deserve protection as a religion.    

  •  What is a fundamentalist Catholic? (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Justus, caryltoo, mightymouse, sethtriggs

    Isn't fundamentalism rooted in "sola scriptura", the idea that the Bible alone is authoritative, not the Church hierarchy or the Pope?

  •  Repugs are Still Formidable (8+ / 0-)

    every POTUS election they lose, there's a debate about hie the repugs are becoming a regional party and they're about to begin an internal war. Repugs never change, they simply double down on their corporate conservatism when they lose elections. And they're patient. The voting public feels they only have two choices for prez and other federal offices: Repug or Dem. Repugs aren't afraid of losing elections like Democrats are, that's why the GOP can nominate their extreme candidates and, if they lose, they'll just try again and they'll eventually win if their patient enough. The repugs aren't down, they lost the 2012 battle but they're in it for the long haul, or "war" as Jay called it. Dems only can see as far as the next battle so they don't demand more of their candidates because they're so afraid of losing elections.

    "The problem with posting quotes off the Internet is you never know if they're genuine."--Gen. George Washington at the Battle of Gettysburg, February 30, 1908

    by Aspe4 on Mon Nov 12, 2012 at 05:39:24 AM PST

  •  I agree with the diarist. I will say, though, that (5+ / 0-)

    sooner or later their hyperbole is the lever with which they will toss themselves out of office.

    You can't make this stuff up.

    by David54 on Mon Nov 12, 2012 at 05:43:49 AM PST

  •  I believe that the determination of your friend (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    bluezen, mightymouse, Gay In Maine

    and others like him work in our favor. If you have the stomach for it, slip over to redstate for a glimpse of the attitudes over there. Although a few are admitting that their party has to wake up to the reality that the country has rejected their policies and way of thinking, and that some changes are in order, many others are standing firm and actually blaming their defeat on the fact that their candidate wasn't conservative enough. In other words they think the country rejected the Repubican party not because it's views and policies were too radical but because they weren't radical enough. Yes, I know what a ridiculous idea that is but many over there feel that way. If that attitude prevails we will continue to win elections and the Republican party will continue to lose support and eventually cease to even be a relevant party. So let em continue to wage their "war". By the time they realize it's a losing battle for them, they'll be gone.

    Just give me some truth. John Lennon--- OWS------Too Big To Fail

    by burnt out on Mon Nov 12, 2012 at 05:50:43 AM PST

  •  In 2008, the Republican party (7+ / 0-)

    was in tatters.

    There are a hundred reasons why the Democrats were not able to hold onto their majorities in 2010 and why so many Americans became so frustrated and why this allowed the Republicans to make a comeback in 2010 and beyond.

    But that party really was devastated by the Bush years and the 2008 election.   The fact that the left was not able to capitalize on that past the 2008 election is really a tragedy and I hope there were a lot of lessons learned, but so far it doesn't look like there were given the way that the D leadership is pushing an austerity plan.

    This is something that seemed to be well understood by most progressives before the election season started and the usual shift to campaign mode, strong defense of the party and willful denial of some of the realities of the past four years kicked in. But it's time to face up to the realities again and work hard to hold people accountable, to pressure for the best possible policies, etc. now before the next campaign season kicks in and no reality-based discussion is allowed again.

    Perpetual election seasons are dangerous and counterproductive to the well being of the people of this country.


    "Justice is a commodity"

    by joanneleon on Mon Nov 12, 2012 at 05:53:38 AM PST

    •  Repubs after 2008 went hard right (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      tofumagoo, YucatanMan

      rather than accept defeat and try and move to the middle, they went harder to the right

      it looks like they will try this again in 2012

      now is the time for Obama to stand up

      The Grand Bargain is a Grand Lie
      Why the scheme being negotiated in Washington is one-sided and totally unfair
      http://www.commondreams.org/...

    •  I agree they were in tatters in 2008, but by 2010 (0+ / 0-)

      they came roaring back with a vengeance, sweeping Dems out of office in statehouses and Congress both.

      Being in tatters following one election doesn't portend much at all for the next election.

      We should not be too complacent about the ability of some demogoguing person or organization (see, 'Tea Party') to stir up emotions and another resurgence.

      Yes, demographics are against them, but if enough people do not vote in midterm elections, there are still dangers to be faced from right wing radicals.

      "The law is meant to be my servant and not my master, still less my torturer and my murderer." -- James Baldwin. July 11, 1966.

      by YucatanMan on Mon Nov 12, 2012 at 11:01:14 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  Over the top (0+ / 0-)

    wishful thinking is what we do best.

  •  Apartheid South Africa was 75% indigenous (4+ / 0-)

    black.  After a time, the white minority simply couldn't hold on anymore.

    They can think it's a war or not - the outcome will ultimately be the same.  They'll simply run out of time. Meanwhile, let's divide them so their time comes all that much sooner.

    All your Supremes are belong to us. For Great Justices!

    by thenekkidtruth on Mon Nov 12, 2012 at 06:06:28 AM PST

  •  Laugh at them (0+ / 0-)

    ridicule and shame them back to the dark corners of america.

    expose them and let the sunshine in.

    -You want to change the system, run for office.

    by Deep Texan on Mon Nov 12, 2012 at 06:12:41 AM PST

  •  Yep. (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    TomP, The Nose, ColoTim, July4rocks

    Let's not kid ourselves here.  I've seen people commenting and posting things about how maybe now the right will seriously reflect on the delusions they've been living under for so long.  My thoughts upon reading those are - no way in hell are they going to do that.  Sure, some will.  These would be the moderates who aren't as far gone as the true believers.  The true believer folks aren't the type to "reflect" on things.

  •  The 2014 mid-terms will easily be worse than 2010 (15+ / 0-)

    if we are too complacent.

    1) Many of the voter suppression measures GOP operatives tried to put in place were temporarily blocked by various court orders. These voter suppression measures will be in full force in 2014. Worse, expect these measures to be strengthened by state legislatures that are controlled by Republicans.

    2) Voter turnout for Democrats tends to decline during mid-term elections. It's part of what happened in 2010, and we all know how bad that was.

    3) There is no sign I've seen in all the news of the past few days that the Republicans are seriously considering a change in their bedrock principles, other than possibly on immigration. This means the GOP remains has committed as ever to the economic policies that have destroyed our industrial base,  unleashed the dictatorship of the propertariat, and caused the massive income and wealth inequalities that are at the root of many of our socioeconomic problems.  (As one pundit suggested a few weeks ago, it would be more useful to stop asking why so many people pay nothing in income taxes, and ask instead why so many people don't earn enough to pay income taxes). The GOP still remains firmly beholden to the Greedy One Percent.

    A conservative is a scab for the oligarchy.

    by NBBooks on Mon Nov 12, 2012 at 06:18:04 AM PST

    •  The loss of 2010 election predicted in 2007 (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      tofumagoo, YucatanMan

      I woke up at 3 AM after the disaster of the 2010 election and pulled a book off the shelf.

      I opened at random, toward the back of the book and found the prediction of the 2010 disaster - on one page

      Roughly it said this

      The Dems won the 2006 election

      but the weak response by the Dems (recall that Bush impeachment was off the table)

      showed that even if the Dems would win the presidency, house and senate in 2008

      for the first time since Jimmy Carter

      the weak response that the Dems showed in 2006 means that the Dems will be overpowered by the corporations, banks and the military industrial complex.
      *
      there is what happened on one page

      the Dems lost enthusiasm when they did not go bold for programs like single payer and to truly wind down the military and security complex, and to go after the banksters and many people sat on their hands

      *
      The book was written by the dean of American Political Philosophers (not political scientists) Sheldon Wolin "Democracy Inc., managed democracy and the specter of inverted totalitarianism." It was published in 2008 but I suspect that the writing of the paraphrased material was from 2007.

  •  "Catholic fundamentalist"? (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    mightymouse, Miggles

    There's no such thing.  In Catholicism, the Bible, while central to the faith, does not have the literal authority it does in Fundamentalist Protetant religion.  Even the most conservative Catholic cleric will admit that the Bible is subject to interpretation.

    -5.13,-5.64; If you gave [Jerry Falwell] an enema, you could bury him in a matchbox. -- Christopher Hitchens

    by gizmo59 on Mon Nov 12, 2012 at 06:38:11 AM PST

    •  Catholic fundamentalism (4+ / 0-)

      Protestant fundamentalism might originally have held the "scripture only" principle (but then so did many mainline Protestant religions) -- but it involves more than this in today's politico-religious form.

      Any religion can have its own variety of "fundamentalists" -- Judaism, Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism.  Cathoic fundamentalism, loosely defined, involves a belief that the 2nd Vatican Council adulterated the true church, that its reforms should be rolled back, and that the Church hierarchy's positions on personal moral issues (abortion, gay marriage, birth control) and ecclesiastical issues (no married priests, no women priests) but not social moral ones (war, social and economic jusstice, death penalty) should be rigidly enforced (and never ever abandoned or changed).

      •  Defined this way, (3+ / 0-)

        I can understand what is meant by the phrase.  I'm still not sure I would call such a person a "fundamentalist," but there is no doubt that the psychology that drives the Protestant Fundamentalist and the Catholic that holds fast to pre-2nd Vatican Council doctine are more or less the same.

        -5.13,-5.64; If you gave [Jerry Falwell] an enema, you could bury him in a matchbox. -- Christopher Hitchens

        by gizmo59 on Mon Nov 12, 2012 at 07:49:34 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  The key is the mindset.... (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          gizmo59, mightymouse

          I think the fundamentalist frame of mind is key -- and that specific religious varieties are merely "externals". ;~}

          Of course, a lot more GOP votes in this election came from NON-fundamentalist Protestants and Catholics than from fundamentalist ones.  The question is -- how can Democrats  re-start dialog with these people?  (Meaningful dialog with fundamentalists is, in my opinion, impossible).

    •  Authority is the key to fundamentalism (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      gizmo59

      For Catholics, the authority is the Pope; for evangelical Protestants, i.e. fundamentalists, the authority is the Bible, or more exactly, their particular English translation of the Bible. Very few of them go to the effort of learning Hebrew, Greek and Aramaic to delve more deeply into the meaning of those scriptures. It can be fun to play with their heads by asking them why they trust the translation from which they are quoting. In the end, it all comes down to which human authorities fundamentalists trust, which is a far cry from having "God on their side".

    •  Is adherence to leadership any less (0+ / 0-)

      fundamentalist than adherence to scripture?  No other variant of Christianity has a pope instructing people on what official dogma is.

  •  Sounds like someone in their last throes (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Laurence Lewis, greengemini

    To me.   Delusional.

    "Small Businesses Don't Build Levees" - Melissa Harris Perry

    by justmy2 on Mon Nov 12, 2012 at 06:41:27 AM PST

  •  "Jay" needs to review his popular vote #s (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    MaikeH, mightymouse

    "only 2,000 more votes for Obama"?

    closer to 3.5 million more votes for Obama, Jay...
    still counting

     

    "Show up. Pay attention. Tell the truth. And don't be attached to the results." -- Angeles Arrien

    by Sybil Liberty on Mon Nov 12, 2012 at 06:42:07 AM PST

  •  Yeah, we're the enemy (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Only Needs a Beat, renbear

    We need a several-pronged approach to get them to stand down

    Rational approaches
    It is obvious that the Rs were lying about the polls at the end.  What else might they have been lying about?  

    Emotional approaches
    We need to realize that many people will not respond to rational arguments - they turn to rational arguments to support what they want to believe

    1) If the economy improves, they may feel better generally

    2) It's more fun to belong to a winning party than a losing party

    3) Get Jay to think about something else for a while, if you can

    Suggestions?

    www.tapestryofbronze.com

    by chloris creator on Mon Nov 12, 2012 at 06:47:06 AM PST

  •  One ardent Romney partisan in my family-- (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    mightymouse

    who is no doubt really grieving right now, I haven't talked to him since the election--is a man close to 80 years old, somewhat frail physically, and a life-long devoted husband, father, and grandfather.

    These people are a different lot from their oligarchic puppet masters, on whom we wage war. (I have no problem with that language in that connection.) Of course I feel compassion for individual Republicans. If I gloated, I would be some kind of monster.

    It's here they got the range/ and the machinery for change/ and it's here they got the spiritual thirst. --Leonard Cohen

    by karmsy on Mon Nov 12, 2012 at 07:06:57 AM PST

  •  they may think they're in a war (8+ / 0-)

    but thy've already lost. it's called demographics. dems need to be unafraid to be dems, and stop ceding ground already won.

    The cold passion for truth hunts in no pack. -Robinson Jeffers

    by Laurence Lewis on Mon Nov 12, 2012 at 07:10:51 AM PST

    •  Yes, we need to be unafraid, but very, very, smart (7+ / 0-)

      from this moment on.  The ground is being plowed for 2016, when the GOP will make every effort to run a face that can finesse the Maya Angelou insight test for character and belief.  And don't forget the power they have in many statehouses and legislatures.  They have effectively swept aside all opposition for the next few years here in TN as a result of the 2010 redistricting.  I intend to pray for smart, shrewd  Dem policies that are delivered with just the right tinge of public derision for what the GOP is certain to propose and advocate.

      •  the "border states" (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        greengemini, Kansas Born, mamamedusa

        have been bucking the national tide, which is turning bluer. west virginia, tennessee, arkansas, missouri- all getting redder. but nevada and colorado soon won't even be swing states- they'll be blue, just as new mexico now is. and arizona and then texas will become purple, then blue, just as is happening to virginia and north carolina. when the gop has to fight for texas, it's game over.

        The cold passion for truth hunts in no pack. -Robinson Jeffers

        by Laurence Lewis on Mon Nov 12, 2012 at 08:12:26 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  I love this analysis & concur for border states, (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Laurence Lewis, mamamedusa

          but there is an odd 'something in the water' that allows the citizens of states like MI, WI, OH, and PA to vote for right-wing zombies for governor, and at the same time give them right-leaning legislatures eager to play ball with them.  I admit to being baffled.

  •  The GOP is dying (0+ / 0-)

    Obama recieved by most estimates only 39% of the white vote and still won this wouldn't have been possible previously and is a sign that demographics are changing in a way that is long term unfavorable to the GOP

    Now 'dying' is a bit of a vague term, even at present course the GOP will likely still be a viable party up to 2020. Even then it's possible something could happen that would alter events but it will depend alot on events that have yet to happen.

    For example let's say the GOP continues as it has and in 2016 or 2020 TX and AZ become battle ground states this shocks the GOP into moderating but at that point it's an up hill fight.

    Or another example is that the 2 of the 3 wings try and kick the other wing out.

    Either way the GOP IS dying they're losing minorities and the younger demographics by margins that are not even remotely competitive

  •  I could not agree more! eom (0+ / 0-)
  •  Not entirely true... (0+ / 0-)

    ..about the war thing.

    Liberals exclusively coined the phrase, "war on women."

    I don't want to get into a "both sides do it" canard, but the war on women tag was not only practically accurate, it was politically successful.

    Maybe you mean Republicans want to engage military war with Democrats.  If that's what you mean, then you have a point.

    I'm not going to take up arms against an American Republican, no matter how bad it gets.

    Liberals use the word "war" & war framing to gain political advantage.  It's just a fact.

    In closing, "Jay" is a loon.  He's a lost cause.   You are wasting your time carrying on a dialogue with him.

    "You just gotta keep on livin man! L-I-V-I-N!" - Wooderson

    by wyvern on Mon Nov 12, 2012 at 07:41:35 AM PST

  •  Completely missing the effect of Citizens United.. (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    mightymouse, Nice Ogre, renbear

    Think about where the Republicans would be now, or even would have been in 2010 without Citizens United.

    They bought a lot of time with that ruling.  They owned 2010 and kept 2012 close.

    2014 is going to be a fight and-a-half.

    But without it, they'd be in the wilderness.  All the more reason to bring the Supreme Court back and the reason that Scalia (et al) will die in office rather than retire.

    Happy little moron, Lucky little man.
    I wish I was a moron, MY GOD, Perhaps I am!
    —Spike Milligan

    by polecat on Mon Nov 12, 2012 at 07:55:13 AM PST

  •  Republicans must be overcome. . . (0+ / 0-)

    because they believe that God is on their side and that everything they wish to accomplish is sanctioned by a higher power.  Their view is by its nature exclusionary, and they will have to be reduced to the status of a debating society for there to be any peace.  Working with them will not work.

    Bene Scriptum, Bene Intellectum.

    by T C Gibian on Mon Nov 12, 2012 at 07:56:49 AM PST

  •  The Civil War (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    YucatanMan

    I read a conservative post on the Huffington Post. He/She wrote that there was a civil war going on in the United States between conservatives and liberals, and that it was important for conservatives to win the war. I made a comment that it was the conservatives that were fighting the war not liberals. - I was surprised that the editors refused to print my comment.

  •  thanks for the diary (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Neon Mama

    Sorry your old friend has turned into a nutcase. My brother was like this for a while ... it was difficult.

    Fascinating to hear how these people think.

    And thanks for the No child left behind mention. this is an area way too many Dems are on the wrong side.

    An ambulance can only go so fast - Neil Young

    by mightymouse on Mon Nov 12, 2012 at 08:39:46 AM PST

  •  The right is better at "guerrilla warfare" (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    sethtriggs

    Therein lies a concern for me.  By "guerrilla warfare" I am referring to political guerrilla warfare, where on party is in the minority accross the board but manages to paralyze and ultimately overthrow the majority.  We saw it during the Carter years, the first two years of the Clinton Administration and in 2010.

    I think Obama is right to make an effort at compromise but he, and the rest of us, must be vigilant about their ultimate ends.

    •  They are (0+ / 0-)

      They are better at guerrilla warfare. It stems from their persecution complex. However, I think part of it stems from us not understanding we are at war with them. Not because we want to be, but because they believe we are and as such have made us at war.

      The American people do not care how something is done they just want something done to help them. That is it. Obama does not need to compromise at all with these people. Take from their play books, act, and speak like you are compromising and make things better for the American people and that is all they will care about.

  •  You forgot one (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    greengemini, July4rocks

    The most important one of all.

    1. Elect Democrats to office!

    We did this in California. And every time we win, the conservatives get more intransigent and even more 'pure' In fact, even with the ass-whupping they got with the last cycle ... there are more calls to become even more 'pure'

    It is incredible how conviction can blind even the sanest of individual.

    No more gooper LITE!

    by krwada on Mon Nov 12, 2012 at 08:53:06 AM PST

  •  the "fever" is not going to break (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    greengemini

    These people are deluded and live in an alternate reality.  Up is down, black is white, and President Obama will never be legitimate and will never be anything but evil to them.

    All we can really work and hope for is for the full economic recovery which we appear to be on track for, for the war in Afghanistan to come to a close, and for the situation to improve in the middle east.  If those things happen, we will have proven all of these right wing nutjobs wrong yet again, and they will go down in even greater defeat in 2014 and 2016.

  •  Wow. (4+ / 0-)

    I just wrote a longish comment in another diary contemplating this very issue and saying the same thing -- this war is not over. We won an important round but they are not going to go quietly into the future. The level of delusion and rage on their side is frightening to me. It's like a fire that's been smoldering is getting fanned into bigger flames now. I am at a loss as to the best way to deal with it though. Obviously you're right that many of them just cannot be reached or reasoned with in any way.

    But OTOH, I also had a conversation with my conservative mined formerly republican brother this weekend; he said he voted for Obama and is happy he won, because he saw through most of the republican's bullshit this time. But he was still going on about how if you raise taxes on businesses and/or their wealthy owners, they will respond by cutting jobs and/or pay in order to keep their own level of income the same. The hostage-takers must be appeased.

    Then, later in the conversation, he was talking about cities and communities on the east coast getting money from FEMA to pay for reconstruction projects, and all the jobs that will help create. I pounced on the moment to ask him, "where does FEMA get that money?" and he literally went blank for a minute! LOL. I said "From taxes! This is why we have to raise taxes on those rich fuckers. They are not creating jobs with it, they are lining their pockets and off-shore bank accounts with it! We need taxes so the government can put it back into the economy!" And he got it! He really did.

    It was like a fucking light went on in his head. Amazing to see it actually work to get through to someone. Just one person, on one issue. But it gave me hope that we can find ways to communicate and educate and bring at least some of them into the fold. The war is not over, I agree. And we have to fight those in power who will continue to obstruct and try to roll things back. But on the ground, we also have to keep reaching out. These people vote.

  •  Thoughts (0+ / 0-)

    Good post. I had a similar experience with a conservative friend. He has only gotten worse since the election. When before the election he would hide his obsessions behind comments like, "all politicians are the same," he now without reservation spews his hate a racisim against his perceived enemies every chance he gets.

    In 2010 liberals made the "liberal" mistake of electing someone then sitting back and waiting for him to deliver. When he did not they stayed home on election day. If we want to preserve and promote liberal causes we must fight for them as though our friend in the WH is our enemy.

    F. Roosevelt when he was asked if he would support Social Security responded "make me."

  •  With respect... your friend Jay is mortal (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    howd

    The Jays of the world can cling as tightly to their bigotries as fiercely as they choose. That is not the issue. That is not going to change anything. The Jays of the nation are dying at a much faster rate than they are indoctrinating new bigots to their club. That's how progress happens over the decades and centuries. Jay is bitterly defending his dead-end. So-long Jay.

    The GOP is going to change because they have no choice. The math no longer allows them to use the white male vote to overwhelm the rest of the nation. The professional politicians - the people who want to win actual elections - can do the math. They also know how to string people along. Your pal Jay will be strung along until he dies or wises up. In the meantime, the Party leaders will look to establish a new demographic profile which can win.

    The problem for teh GOP is they are so over-reliant on their Southern Strategy they will have a hard time finding a new formulation. five decades of wedge politics has offended most of the population. This is a problem that will cause the GOP a lot of woe for a good number of years.

    As for this...

    In 2008 after Barrack Obama won the election many on this site said that the GOP were in their death throws as a party.
    ... I didn't hear those things being said then. On any given day someone somewhere is saying jut about anything. But 'death throes of the GOP' was not a common theme.

    Nor is the GOP in any death spiral today. Not in a two-party system it isn't. What is in a death spiral is the GOP as built upon the 'Southern Strategy'.

  •  the delusion i dont want to repeat (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    dinazina, FutureNow

    is the delusion of bipartisanship.

    they proved they will NOT work in good faith with anyone.

    FUCK EM.

  •  throes nt (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    dinazina, Just Bob

    Maybe one day the Fourth Estate will take their jobs seriously. Or not..

    by Anthony Page aka SecondComing on Mon Nov 12, 2012 at 09:16:07 AM PST

  •  Democrats, Obama included, should not repeat (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Don midwest

    the mistakes of 2010.  Remember 2010, when Democrats were punished for cutting Medicare?  Post-partisan Obama spent two years reaching out to ideological warriors, refusing to call out lies, refusing to "look back", offering preemptive concessions, and generally avoiding any public conflicts with the republicans.  Every, and I mean every, issue was framed by the republicans.  Death panels and every vile lie that came out of their mouths was repeated in the MSM and amped up in the right-wing hate machine.

    There is a war going on. The war over the facts, the truth, history, math, etc.  Everything the republicans are selling requires lies: lies about the costs, lies about who benefits and who gets hurt, etc.  Our leaders need to be fully engaged in this fight.  If not there isn't any reason not to expect another 2010.

  •  Polite debate is good. We argue here and (0+ / 0-)

    learn from each other.  So even if Jay didn't switch -- others who read/chimed in had a chance to grow.

    Start working on off year election now --- by identifying problems, educating ourselves and others, and making sure we have at least one good candidate running for EVERY office.  

    Our local/state governance is the training grounds to create better candidates for higher offices.   Local/state decisions are easier for plutocrats to sway --- &  often harm us more directly.    

    Don't forget national issues.  Just focus closer to home for a bit --- so we don't wonder how we got stuck with draconian policies, laws, and elected officials two years from now.  

    And redistricting comes every 10 years, just after census.  Let's keep our eyes on the ball -- make changes necessary -- push harder ---- so NEXT time it is fair instead of gerrymandered.

    De fund + de bunk = de EXIT--->>>>>

    by Neon Mama on Mon Nov 12, 2012 at 10:11:17 AM PST

  •  It starts at the top. Heritage Foundation (0+ / 0-)

    launched this clip on Nov. 6:

    http://www.youtube.com/...

  •  Let's hope Obama realizes the Republicans are... (0+ / 0-)

    ...still at war and always will be. Let's hope he finally takes Maya Angelou's advice.

    He will NEVER be their president. They have proven they will NEVER see his policies as legitimate, even when they are identical to policies they previously advocated.

    NO president has faced obstructionism on this level OR adopted as much of the opposition party's agenda as Obama has.

  •  I have a Facebook friend like yours. (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    mamamedusa

    She posts a new conspiracy theory pretty regularly.  This morning it is supposed counts in San Lucia County in Florida that show that more people voted than were registered. Facts don't matter much to her.

    Some of my other conservative friends tell me she's an outlier - that most of conservatism is not taken up with crazy theories about Obama's ring or his college records or his nanny's ex-boyfriend's teacher's history with the KKK, or whatever.  I agree with you, though, that it's important to talk back.  I have noticed that my friend's posts became more respectful (fewer "libtard"'s), and that she posts fewer crazy rants, too, since I started debunking.

    I like your other ideas, too.  We need a movement, we need to stay organized, we need leadership and purpose.  If everyone does their part we will prevail.

  •  Props for actionable moves against corporate edu (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    YucatanMan

    The corporate takeover of education is the most alarming and sad thing that has happened to this country in the past 40 years.

    Sad thing is that millions of young people are jailed in their own minds without even the framework of critical thinking that is strongly emphasized in other countries.

    They are like the pods in the Matrix, we need to set them free.

    --
    Make sure everyone's vote counts: Verified Voting

    by sacrelicious on Mon Nov 12, 2012 at 10:48:38 AM PST

  •  I had an interesting phone call before (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    mamamedusa

    the election from College Young Republicans.

    (Don't ask why Republicans would think I support them. I suspect it has something to do with them obtaining passport lists, because my name appears only in that form on my passport and not on any other official documents, etc.)

    A nice young woman asked if I would take a one question survey.  I said, "Yes, why not?"   She said she would play a recording for me and then have her question.  

    Obviously, I knew this was a push-poll, but I decided to stay on the line to take up as much of their time and resources as possible.

    The recording was of the national president of College Young Republicans.  He went on and on about "taking America back" and that he "promised he would Go To War for your values and your rights."   Over and over, war imagery and the word "war" was used.

    At the end, the young woman asked whether people of my generation would like to support College Young Republicans.  

    I had two questions for her: 1)  How do you know what generation I am?  (she said she didn't, but why talk about generations at all, then?)  And 2)  Why were they using talk of "War" against fellow Americans?

    She said they didn't mean it "that way."  But I told her that "war" was a loaded word, filled with destruction, death and hate.  I told her that I wouldn't support anyone who wanted to go to war against Americans as I considered that to be treasonous.  

    She sounded somewhat shocked at the idea, said thank you and hung up.

    I think we should call them on the "war" talk, over and over.  These people are seriously off-kilter and need to be brought back to reality:  Talking about War against fellow Americans is wrong.

    "The law is meant to be my servant and not my master, still less my torturer and my murderer." -- James Baldwin. July 11, 1966.

    by YucatanMan on Mon Nov 12, 2012 at 10:49:05 AM PST

    •  An excellent idea for computer vox calls (0+ / 0-)

      when you can tell the other end of the line is a vox system (voice activated) and it's a rude robo-call, then have a pre-recorded voice of yourself just saying over and over:

      (pause a few seconds)
      Since you're rude enough to robocall me, I'll robo-respond to you.  I've connected your call to a recording, assholes.
      (pause a few seconds)
      uhhh.... let me think about it.
      (pause a few seconds)
      uhh.... three
      (pause a few seconds)
      uhh.... seven
      (etc forever in a loop)

      Then walk away and get back to whatever you were doing while you play this recording into the phone's microphone.

      It's exactly the sort of thing that would be nice to have in a smartphone app but there is the danger that you're costing yourself just as much money as the caller then, given how most mobile phone plans work.

  •  I'm sick and tired (0+ / 0-)

    of this meme:

    Let us not continue this delusion of having empathy for them, they do not have empathy for me, for you or for us.
    of which I've read countless variations here these last few days.

    It's not only a completely illogical bit of argument, but it also runs contrary to President Obama's call for unity: “We are not a collection of red states or blue states. We are the United States of America!"

    The President has always uplifted the idea that diverse collaborations are stronger than homogeneous ones. "E Pluribus Unum" and all that, at the level of individuals as well as states. Let's try to follow his lead a little better.

    •  Personally I don't give a damn (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      jhecht, howd

      about Obama's call for unity. I vote for him because he is a democrat and immensely preferable to the opposition. We don't need to swallow everything he says hook line and sinker.

      He's the guy at the top of the ticket, that is all. It's much more important to realize that as long as one side thinks it's at ware with us, we really are at war with them. And we will be at a severe disadvantage if we don't act accordingly. To that end, we need to stomp them into the dust before they have a chance to regroup, for they surely would do so to us.

      "crush in its birth the aristocracy of our monied corporations which dare already to challenge our government" -Thomas Jefferson

      by Phil In Denver on Mon Nov 12, 2012 at 11:00:59 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  You'd prefer to (0+ / 0-)

        reignite the Civil War?

        •  It's a rhetorical "war" (0+ / 0-)

          I don't expect to be loading my shotgun any time soon. But I do think it means we don't back off, we don't back down, we don't cede any ground, and we don't take anything for granted. We especially don't offer any compromise beyond what we have already offered.

          Here is the thing. Our opposition is desperate, and currently in despair. But they won't be in despair for long, they will soon be seething with rage and will pull out all the stops in the off-year election of 2014. It will make 2010 look like a cakewalk.

          "crush in its birth the aristocracy of our monied corporations which dare already to challenge our government" -Thomas Jefferson

          by Phil In Denver on Mon Nov 12, 2012 at 01:33:47 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

    •  Which is exactly why we can't have nice things (0+ / 0-)

      Democrats have no spine once elected.  You're not dumb enough to think tea party assholes want to compromise or will budge an inch.  So what do you think happens when Democrats are willing to do so?  Well, this is what happens, Democrats just become Republican-lite, as they move to the right while the right does not move toward the left.

      I am willing to compromise with people who will reciprocate.  But once I realize there is no reciprocation coming from the other end, it's time to stop being gullible.

  •  There is a Marvel comic book character (0+ / 0-)

    just like these dull-headed folks:

    The Punisher

    His own laws, his own agenda, for reasons he thinks should be universal.

    Yeah, we don't compromise with the brainwashed, desperate folks standing in artificial corners.  Let them receive counseling when reality has hit them long and soft enough to wear away the veneer of their sickness/programming.

    But, they are people.

    So, we should feel sympathetic pity for them.  While mercilessly crushing their horrid ideals.

    "So, please stay where you are. Don't move and don't panic. Don't take off your shoes! Jobs is on the way."

    by wader on Mon Nov 12, 2012 at 11:04:24 AM PST

  •  nitpick (0+ / 0-)

    "death throes"

    "Politics is like driving. To go backward put it in R. To go forward put it in D."
    Four More Years! How sweet it is!!!

    by TrueBlueMajority on Mon Nov 12, 2012 at 11:22:47 AM PST

  •  It's not delusional, it's just gradual (0+ / 0-)

    Institutional inertia, especially when backed by so much money, will mean it's a long dissolution, but the reality is the GOP cannot be sustained. It will not tack to the middle on policy because two of its three biggest constituent groups - social conservatives (extremists, really) and the no-taxes-ever wing of the financial conservatives - completely dominate its structure, and the genuine libertarians find themselves at odds with both groups, especially on foreign policy, and basically excluded from the table. When you can't even get your own coalition to cooperate, you're not going to broaden your base.

    The modern Republican party has been around for about 100 years (the watershed 1912 election was the break of progressives away from the Republican label) and it's going to take longer for it to dissolve than, say, it took the Whigs. But it's happening in front of us.

    Some people are intolerant, and I CAN'T STAND people like that. -- Tom Lehrer

    by TheCrank on Mon Nov 12, 2012 at 12:16:26 PM PST

  •  Right. No Kumbaya. (0+ / 0-)

    I live in a conservative city in a purple state, and work with several Tea Party-types. They will not learn and will hold to their Fox News and talk radio propaganda and talking points, no matter what. And they will not compromise. The only option is to appeal to an increasing majority with facts and good policies, and to hand the right-wingers increasingly large defeats at the polls. We can't compromise with the extremists. And they may become increasingly desperate. Perhaps even violent. But we can't back down if we want to do the right thing for America.

  •  We are at war. (0+ / 0-)

    Several wars at once, really. Sad or not, that is a fact. Failing to accept that and respond accordingly is a tremendous disadvantage to our cause(s).

    Purging predominantly minority voters and requiring them to present IDs to vote in the face of VIRTUALLY NON-EXISTENT VOTER FRAUD is RACISM! I hereby declare all consenting Republicans RACISTS until they stand up and object to these practices!

    by Words In Action on Mon Nov 12, 2012 at 12:30:33 PM PST

  •  Compromising with someone who will not (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    mamamedusa

    reciprocate with you is stupid.  It just means you move toward their position and their position doesn't budge.  Or worse yet, they move their position further away from you to try to pull you further in their direction once you've shown your willingness to compromise on your own principles to create a false sense of pretend cooperation with them.

    It's the lesson Obama needs to learn.  He's had 4 years.  He still hasn't learned it.  You do NOT compromise with people who refuse to reciprocate that compromise.

  •  Don't be fooled! (0+ / 0-)

    Couldn't agree more.  2008 and 2012 are no more the death throes of the GOP than the 2010 spanking was for the Democrats.  Don't be tempted to bury your head in the same hole that the GOP did, leading up to this lateset shellacking.

    We need to play like we're 10 points behind and continue to fight like hell!

    "Dogs' lives are too short. Their only fault, really." -- Agnes Sligh Turnball

    by EyeStreetMom on Mon Nov 12, 2012 at 02:07:15 PM PST

  •  Here is a letter to the editor I wrote 2 years ago (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    mamamedusa

    The Passive-Aggressive E-Mail
    Have you too been the recipient of disturbing, unsolicited, right-wing or anti-government e-mails from numerous friends? My list of senders includes business and educational professionals as well as a couple of skilled tradesmen, all of whom are white and middle-aged. Most are married to professional women.
    Each unsolicited e-mail came largely free of any introductory statement from the sender like, “Hi, I just wondered what you thought about this” or any other polite, personalized ice-breaker one might expect at the beginning of a correspondence from a friend. It was kind of like, “here, read this!” from each person. Upon receipt of the first message of this type I was surprised that the sender felt as he did and surprised that he had seemingly been taken in by what appeared to be gross exaggerations, mischaracterizations and or outright lies.
    I decided to try to correct the misconceptions based upon exaggerations or lies to prevent my friend from appearing to be uninformed. By accessing some of the fact checking sites on the internet I was able to deconstruct the communication I had received and I sent a polite, non-condescending reply in an effort to straighten out the facts. I repeated the same strategy with each of the friends, former “good” friends and former friends from whom I have received these types of e-mails.
    To my surprise, I got no reply acknowledging my corrective effort. Within a few days another e-mail, again lacking any personalized introduction, addressed to dozens, featuring lots of bolded text and many exclamation points and loaded with apparent lies and misconceptions appeared in my inbox. Again I researched the included claims, fact checked and corrected the errors and replied accordingly. Again, no return reply was forthcoming.
    Shortly I received several more objectionable (to me) e-mails. This had to be a mistake or perhaps a case of laziness because, after all, friends don’t knowingly lie to friends, do they? Eventually, after repeating the same procedure and receiving still more e-mails, I concluded that the sender by now must have understood that I did not agree with him. Since he refused to observe the most basic tenant of intelligent debate, that of insisting upon facts as the basis for argumentation, I requested that he take me off of his “political” mailing list. Unbelievably, he didn’t respect my wish until I got downright rude. Consequently, that friendship has been severely strained.
    Similar scenarios have since played out with several variations where each sender of the unsolicited has been concerned. Some are mad because I had the temerity to provide them with the facts and state an opposing opinion. Those do not write me anymore about anything and I suspect we are finished. Some continue to send an occasional zinger. Some have attacked calling me un-American, or a commie or a socialist or a threat to national security or a person with "class envy". Some have stated that non-partisan fact checking sites have a liberal, left wing bias. One company CEO even acknowledged a specific e-mail he forwarded contained lies but he didn’t care. In other words, the lies listed substantiated that which he wished to be the truth. God hope the defendant if this guy is ever on a jury!
    These e-mails have become a source of considerable consternation. They seem to me to be a passive-aggressive flicking of the ear, a calling out of sorts. Somehow I feel partially responsible for the way things have turned out but logic tells me otherwise. I was just minding my own business, keeping my opinions to myself when these e-mails began arriving. So-called friends should have never put a friend in this position. The cost of the e-mails has been a loss of friendship, a loss of respect for those who e-mailed me, a pervasive sense of betrayal and an uneasy feeling in my gut about the future. Thanks guys
    Mitch Smith

  •  I am under no illusion about Republicans (0+ / 0-)

    They've been losing power and popularity of late, and I believe this will continue, but they're still a force to be reckoned with and in their current form will continue to be so for at least another 10-20 years. I don't think they're all evil, or stupid, or crazy, but they're clearly operating under a very different set of moral and ideological points of reference than we are, that allow and really compel them to be nasty, vicious and uncompromising. They don't act this way because they have to. The act this way because it's what they are. I'm not saying no compromise. But no unprincipled and unnecessary compromise just for show.

    Your friend is right. We are at war. They started it. We have to end it. They are at war not just with us, but with the principles that this country was founded on. We have to win this war.

    "Liberty without virtue would be no blessing to us" - Benjamin Rush, 1777

    by kovie on Mon Nov 12, 2012 at 02:40:12 PM PST

  •  the Progressive find endures...forever... (0+ / 0-)

    ...the things we progressives fight for are not fleeting; and, faced with setbacks, we too do our best to try to forge ahead, forward.

    What this election has taught me is that the battles, even for the most basic things (i.e. to vote), can never have been assumed to have been won permanently.

    We fought so many battles this year over things many of us had thought had been settled long ago (women's rights, abortion rights, voting rights, etc., etc., etc.).

    Same, too, apparently, for your friend.

  •  Yes, Caution. (0+ / 0-)

    Thank you for writing this.

    I have been thinking very much similar thoughts since the weeks before the election when this outcome was very much predicted.

    The people and organizations that rebuilt after 2010 (and exclusively for their own benefit), will do all they can to rebuild for 2014 and beyond.

    While I think it is positive we can take pride in this victory, soon after that we might better re-commit and try to advance it.

  •  At war (0+ / 0-)

    My religious conservative Republican mom has mentioned that they were "at war" to "take their country back" several times over the past couple years. I think that mindset has been spread around among their ranks and is prevalent now.

    I hope Obama will comprehend this before he makes any compromises with them.

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