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A group of Eagle Scouts and their families marched with supporters in the Gainesville (FL) Pride Parade
and Festival as Scouts for Equality in the Inclusive Scouting Network in October.
As Boy Scouts of America continues to double down on their "no gays allowed" policy, they are watching their corporate sponsorship base crumble.

Today the United Parcel Services (UPS) announced on their website:

The UPS Foundation seeks to support organizations that are in alignment with our focus areas, guidelines, and non-discrimination policy. UPS and The UPS Foundation do not discriminate against any person or organization with regard to categories protected by applicable law, as well as other categories protected by UPS and The UPS Foundation in our own policies. These include, but are not limited to race, gender, national origin, disability, sexual orientation, gender identity, veteran or military status, pregnancy, age and religion.
LGBT rights org GLAAD has confirmed "organizations that conflict with UPS non-discrimination policy will not be considered eligible for funding" which means going forward Boy Scouts will be ineligible for grants from UPS through their "Focus on Giving" program. Intel Corporation made a similar decision earlier this year to not support groups whose non-discrimination policy is not inline with their own corporate policy. Intel's matching grants were at the time the single biggest source of revenue among programs of its kind for the Boy Scouts.

Jennifer Tyrrell, an Ohio mom who was fired as the popular Scout leader when national hierarchy became aware she was a lesbian, responded to today's news:

"We are finally heading in the right direction in this country and that is the direction of equality for all. It is time that the BSA respects the needs of the American people and stops rejected devoted parents and scouts because they happen to be LGBT. Until the BSA joins the national trend of equality, sponsors of the organization should continue to withhold support or support the growing number of troops that have rejected the ban."
Decisions like denying Eagle Scout based on sexual orientation have earned the Boy Scouts significant grassroots pushback. From GLAAD:
GLAAD and Scouts for Equality have also called attention to the Americans who are continuing to be harmed by the anti-gay policy, including Kentucky dad Greg Bourke who was ousted from his son’s troop this summer and launched a Change.org campaign to be reinstated as well as 18 year-old Ryan Andresen whose mother started a Change.org petition which is at over 420,000 signatures after he was denied an the rank of Eagle Scout because he is gay.
Zach Wahls
Zach Wahls, an Eagle Scout and the most famous product of two moms ever, has formed a grassroots pressure group known as on Scouts for Equality. He says:
“UPS showed true bravery today in standing with the 80,000 Americans, including thousands of Scouts and Scout leaders, who oppose the Boy Scouts’ hurtful anti-gay policy. That bravery is what Scouting is all about. Corporate America gets it better than most: policies that discriminate aren’t simply wrong, they're bad for business and they're hurting the Scouting community. You would think that after all the Boy Scouts have lost as a result of this policy, they would understand that.”
Earilier this year, the CEOs of two major companies—AT&T and Ernst & Young—who have seats on the national board have called for an end to the policy. Also, the executive director of the James Beard Foundation returned an honorary reward when she was made aware of the organization's discriminatory policies.

The Boy Scouts of America also reiterated their support for continuing their ban on gay members and leaders earlier this year.

Update, Take Action:

Daily Kos has launched a petition thanking UPS for standing up for equality. Please take a moment to thank them for this important action by signing here.

Originally posted to Milk Men And Women on Mon Nov 12, 2012 at 11:36 AM PST.

Also republished by Angry Gays and Daily Kos.

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  •  Tip Jar (217+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    coquiero, Crabby Abbey, gchaucer2, FiredUpInCA, EthanR, lineatus, Lorikeet, Sylv, dougymi, 4democracy, ExStr8, rserven, One Pissed Off Liberal, kevin k, 2thanks, lillyspad, blue in NC, kevinpdx, Eddie L, swampyankee, political mutt, polecat, bythesea, pademocrat, snowshoeblue, The Scoutmaster, buckstop, Chrislove, redlum jak, winsock, Lujane, JDWolverton, Cassandra Waites, Railfan, sealsinger, jfromga, possum, Terre, chiefsjen, a gilas girl, wader, Farugia, filby, mayim, skrekk, jennifree2bme, Arahahex, slowbutsure, zekeaz, cooper888, gramofsam1, stormicats, MidwestTreeHugger, J M F, Front Toward Enemy, confitesprit, roses, CJB, OIL GUY, implicate order, Bob Love, 1BQ, blueoasis, antimony, Chaddiwicker, wasatch, Matilda, gizmo59, Deep Texan, antooo, Molly Weasley, uciguy30, thomask, avsp, glorificus, Andrew S, eru, Tamar, sierrartist, lotlizard, ask, craigkg, chimpy, S F Hippie, Catte Nappe, ColoTim, AllanTBG, Russ Jarmusch, MazeDancer, howd, blackjackal, filkertom, shinobi9, Steveningen, Cronesense, nogo postal, YaNevaNo, Bill in Portland Maine, deep, FlyingToaster, Momagainstthedraft, rapala, tommyfocus2003, Texknight, pgm 01, Gowrie Gal, Avilyn, Debby, My Spin, fumie, lirtydies, millwood, tegrat, pixxer, Flying Goat, peteri2, leonard145b, sfbob, mofembot, petulans, kurt, Ojibwa, caseylaw, sawgrass727, Jim Domenico, LilithGardener, gulfgal98, I give in to sin, equinespecter, tapestry, ichibon, IngThing, Quicklund, MPociask, ridemybike, Swill to Power, EdSF, angelajean, mconvente, peacestpete, elwior, cloudbustingkid, ms badger, trumpeter, Pandora, ccasas, tofumagoo, Alice Venturi, Cory Bantic, gloriana, Yamara, third Party please, emeraldmaiden, revsue, Randtntx, MartyM, Smoh, elginblt, edsbrooklyn, sc kitty, crose, ardyess, eeff, radical simplicity, Colorado is the Shiznit, MarkInSanFran, randallt, IndieGuy, tin woodswoman, Larsstephens, LoreleiHI, kerplunk, Gemina13, KathleenM1, Odysseus, bnasley, Dave in Northridge, luckylizard, BYw, vacantlook, snoopydawg, SoCaliana, science nerd, Clive all hat no horse Rodeo, futureliveshere, earljellicoe, dotsright, Ocelopotamus, MahFellaMerkins, madhaus, davidincleveland, The grouch, Alma, anodnhajo, Southcoast Luna, jayden, Imhotepsings, helpImdrowning, sceptical observer, scamperdo, edwardssl, Eyesbright, The Marti, mgoodm, Sam Gurski, RandySeattle, mijita, mungley, tinfoilhat, diggerspop, chickeeee, wbr, Toe Jam, Dutch Doctor, Nespolo, Ishmaelbychoice, elvisneedsboats

    Supporter: "Senator, you have the vote of every thinking person!" Adlai Stevenson: "That's not enough, madam, we need a majority!"

    by Scott Wooledge on Mon Nov 12, 2012 at 11:36:45 AM PST

  •  In other Scouting news (91+ / 0-)

    (the most awesome Girl Scouts), Mother Jones has an article about how 60% of female Congresscritters are former Girl Scouts.

    Girls rule, boys drool.

    On a more serious note, I really hope Boy Scouts gets their act together.  It has been and hopefully will be a really great program for boys, but they have gone far, far off the rails.

    I blog about my daughter with autism at her website

    by coquiero on Mon Nov 12, 2012 at 11:44:24 AM PST

    •  yes (53+ / 0-)

      The Girl Scouts are committed to encouraging individuality and independence in girls, no matter what their shape or color or preferences.  

      All of the female astronauts have been former Girl Scouts too.

      They're a great organization and I'm very proud to be a Girl Scout parent.

    •  "YES!" to your last paragraph! To me, it's (17+ / 0-)

      actually sort of sad. The concept of Boy Scouts is good, the benefit of outdoor education to the boys is good, the potential overall benefit of scouting to the community is good.

      Then - as usual - the "leadership" had to go and ruin it with their bigotry and their hypocrisy and their overall ugliness that even trickles down to each scout.

      I remember talking to a recent Eagle Scout recipient in our community. This year was a significant anniversary for scouting in general and the Eagle Scout program in particular, and many Eagle Scout recipients had the opportunity to receive a certificate or letter signed by President Obama. This scout had the following to say about that:

      The only bad thing about getting my Eagle this year is that my certificate was signed by Obama [nasty sneer in voice].
      Heck, when I was 15, I would have been thrilled to get a certificate signed by whomever was president (it was Richard Nixon, and come to think of it, I did get a Nixon family photo and signed card from President Nixon for some reason or other and treasured it).

      So, the boys in scouting now are corrupted by their bigoted and hate-filled parents, and the corruption is magnified by the bigoted and hate-filled BSA "leadership", and the whole thing is just really, really sad.

      What on earth benefit to the "safety" of young boys was accomplished by banning that gay mom from Ohio from leading a Cub Scout Pack?

      I have mixed feelings about how an organization that has so much potential close contact between men - some of them gay - who are pedophiles, and teenaged boys. Banning possibly gay boys is, of course, repugnant to me. But gay scoutmasters who might be sharing a two-person tent with a 13-year-old boy? How does an organization minimize the risk there?

      Of course, so many of the men who were simply hidden in the BSA "Perversion Files" were married men who were nominally straight, so really, if BSA cared about "protecting" these boys, they'd ban all those "straight" married men, right?

      "Bernie Madoff's mistake was stealing from the rich. If he'd stolen from the poor he'd have a cabinet position." -OPOL

      by blue in NC on Mon Nov 12, 2012 at 12:13:48 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  The disrespect (21+ / 0-)

        for Obama is absolutely disgusting. I LOATHED Bush, but I would never say something like that if I received an award signed by him. If Obama were white, I can't see this kind of hate being thrown his way.

        Ugh.

      •  My understanding is that there IS no evidence (26+ / 0-)
        I have mixed feelings about how an organization that has so much potential close contact between men - some of them gay - who are pedophiles, and teenaged boys. Banning possibly gay boys is, of course, repugnant to me. But gay scoutmasters who might be sharing a two-person tent with a 13-year-old boy? How does an organization minimize the risk there?

        that pedophilia is more frequent among adult gay men than it is among adult "straight" men.  In my personal experience, gay people who live in fear of harassment areif anything  hyper-cautious around children.   Conflating attraction to adult men with attraction to male children is a MYTH fostered by those devoted to demonizing homosexuality.  

        But to the extent that ANY adult is a possible molester, risk minimization comes from sunshine.  Teach kids to report inappropriate contact and support them when they do.  And, perhaps its best not to have an adult and child in a 2-person tent.  Tents come in all sizes, right?  

        "The extinction of the human race will come from its inability to EMOTIONALLY comprehend the exponential function." -- Edward Teller

        by lgmcp on Mon Nov 12, 2012 at 12:49:25 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  We used larger tents (17+ / 0-)

          when I was in Girl Scouts, and most of the time us girls were sleeping out in the open if the weather permitted. If it was a 2-person tent, it was two kids sleeping in there (and being told by the troop leaders to hush up the giggling and go to sleep).

          "If we ever needed to vote we sure do need to vote now" -- Rev. William Barber, NAACP

          by Cali Scribe on Mon Nov 12, 2012 at 01:01:12 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

        •  You are correct. No connection exist between (22+ / 0-)

          pedophilia and homosexuality.

          Sandusky is the poster child for the heterosexual who would pass muster on the face of his long marriage and large family, but who just happened to rape boys.

          Gay? No.

          "I was a big supporter of waterboarding" - Dick Cheney 2/14/10

          by Bob Love on Mon Nov 12, 2012 at 01:08:16 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

        •  No adult should ever share a tent with only one (14+ / 0-)

          Child on a BSA trip unless that child is his/her son.

          © grover


          So if you get hit by a bus tonight, would you be satisfied with how you spent today, your last day on earth? Live like tomorrow is never guaranteed, because it's not. -- Me.

          by grover on Mon Nov 12, 2012 at 01:37:24 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Actually, my recollection... (11+ / 0-)

            from my many years of Scouting was adults didn't share tents with kids much.

            I usually shared a tent with one of my friends. My dad came a lot, but usually shared with another adult. Or slept alone.

            Since we kids usally stayed up all night and talked, I'm sure they liked it that way.

            Supporter: "Senator, you have the vote of every thinking person!" Adlai Stevenson: "That's not enough, madam, we need a majority!"

            by Scott Wooledge on Mon Nov 12, 2012 at 01:46:46 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

          •  That should be a scouting rule (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            coquiero

            The work goes on, the cause endures, the hope still lives and the dreams shall never die. ~ Edward M. (Ted) Kennedy

            by cherie clark on Mon Nov 12, 2012 at 02:19:54 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  Why do we need blanket rules? (0+ / 0-)

              Why not let troop leadership and the kids parent make rules?

              I think they're smart enough.

              Supporter: "Senator, you have the vote of every thinking person!" Adlai Stevenson: "That's not enough, madam, we need a majority!"

              by Scott Wooledge on Mon Nov 12, 2012 at 02:22:10 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  I would hope they were smart enough but an adult (3+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                coquiero, growingMajorityMN, BYw

                should never ever ever be sleeping in a two person tent with a child that is not his own. If for no other reason than his own protection. Maybe if that rule had been in place they wouldn't have needed to blame the gays for everything.

                The work goes on, the cause endures, the hope still lives and the dreams shall never die. ~ Edward M. (Ted) Kennedy

                by cherie clark on Mon Nov 12, 2012 at 02:37:08 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  Both Scouts and the Catholic Church ban gays, (5+ / 0-)

                  but that hasn't stopped them from blaming gays for their pedophile problems. Hasn't slowed them down one bit.

                  Maybe if that rule had been in place they wouldn't have needed to blame the gays for everything.

                  Supporter: "Senator, you have the vote of every thinking person!" Adlai Stevenson: "That's not enough, madam, we need a majority!"

                  by Scott Wooledge on Mon Nov 12, 2012 at 02:43:51 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  What I am saying is the chances are greatly (0+ / 0-)

                    reduced if the rue had been in place. That is not to say a dedicated pedophile isn't going to find a way, because they will, but why make it easy for them? As a mother of two boys who were in scouting if I ever had found out they had shared a tent with another adult there would have been HELL TO PAY and it would have been the last time, even assuming nothing happened, why be so reckless and stupid?

                    The work goes on, the cause endures, the hope still lives and the dreams shall never die. ~ Edward M. (Ted) Kennedy

                    by cherie clark on Mon Nov 12, 2012 at 02:48:37 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  What I'm saying is you're wrong. (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      lgmcp
                      chances are greatly reduced if the rue had been in place.
                      Rules don't protect our kids.

                      Common sense, good, involved parenting and absence of bad luck protects our kids.

                      Supporter: "Senator, you have the vote of every thinking person!" Adlai Stevenson: "That's not enough, madam, we need a majority!"

                      by Scott Wooledge on Mon Nov 12, 2012 at 02:59:52 PM PST

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  Some rules ARE or should be common sense (2+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        grover, BYw

                        The work goes on, the cause endures, the hope still lives and the dreams shall never die. ~ Edward M. (Ted) Kennedy

                        by cherie clark on Mon Nov 12, 2012 at 03:10:36 PM PST

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  It's easier to spot people who break rules than (1+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          cherie clark

                          Pedophiles.

                          Reasonable procedures and rules save lives in the wilderness and BSA has such rules.  

                          People who break them are dismissed. You don't need to accuse an adult of pedophilia (which will result in a  a community-wide uproar if not a defamation lawsuit). You dismiss them for breaking an agreed-upon rule.

                          That's why many corporations have rules forbidding managers from sleeping with subordinates. Sexual harrassment is hard to prove, but toxic to the company and harmful to the victim. So they don't have rules saying "don't harrass your subordinates." The rule (sex with subordinates always wrong) and therefore the transgression is more clearly defined.

                          I'm a grey thinker. I rarely see things in black and white. But most people and most communities do better with black and white rules:  manage the observable behavior, and the rest takes care of itself.

                          © grover


                          So if you get hit by a bus tonight, would you be satisfied with how you spent today, your last day on earth? Live like tomorrow is never guaranteed, because it's not. -- Me.

                          by grover on Mon Nov 12, 2012 at 03:29:16 PM PST

                          [ Parent ]

              •  after the BSA finds out what it's like to be the (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                The Marti

                Catholic Church, and after several millions of dollars in lawsuits 40 and 50 years after the fact, believe me...there will be lots of "blanket rules."

                This is going to be a feeding frenzy within 12 months.  

                Oregon: Sure...it's cold. But it's a damp cold.

                by Keith930 on Mon Nov 12, 2012 at 06:36:15 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

          •  They do not share tents! It's a rule! (0+ / 0-)

            Men together, boys together. What man in his right mind would want to be accused of pedophilia? So they NEVER have adults and kids in the same tent.

          •  They don't (5+ / 0-)

            Cub scouts do family camping and Boy Scouts do troop camping.  Adults never share a tent with a boy who is not their own son and generally the boys bunk together and the adults bunk together.  No 11-17 year old wants to bunk with dad or mom unless forced to.  Everybody has a buddy, even the adults.  You don't go anywhere without your buddy (boys) or without informing your buddy (adults) because there are supposed to be 2 adults around at all times.  

            I had almost 20 years in scouting - was the first woman in my council to take a troop to summer camp and the 3rd woman in my council to get nominated for the Order of the Arrow.  

            Part of adult leader training that is required for everybody, committee, troop leaders, merit badge counselors, is Youth Protection.  You are never alone with a boy - must always have 2 adults and a group of boys.  Only exception we ever had was giving boys rides home and if I had 3 boys who were not mine in the back seat, my son was riding shotgun, so if I was alone with a boy after dropping the others off, it was always my own kid.

            "Focusing your life solely on making a buck shows a certain poverty of ambition. It asks too little of yourself. Because it's only when you hitch your wagon to something larger than yourself that you realize your true potential." - Barack Obama

            by Ricochet67 on Mon Nov 12, 2012 at 05:03:17 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

      •  Groups like the Sierra Club (14+ / 0-)

        or other environmental organizations could seize an opportunity by offering programs in the same vein as the Boy Scouts, with an emphasis on environmental restoration/preservation. Would possibly be a way to build their own memberships, as families would join to participate with their children, and those kids would grow up to bring along their own families.

        "If we ever needed to vote we sure do need to vote now" -- Rev. William Barber, NAACP

        by Cali Scribe on Mon Nov 12, 2012 at 12:57:46 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  The vast majority of gay men (21+ / 0-)

        Are no more attracted to 13-year old boys than straight men are.  It's a myth about homosexuality that needs to be dragged into the sunlight so it can burn like the nasty little bit of darkness that it is.

        A pedophile is a pedophile.  They often don't care about the gender of their victims; it's the power inequality that counts.  If they seem to focus on one gender or the other, that's more a function of availability rather than preference.

        And if the Boy Scouts are anything like the Girl Scouts, that whole "scoutmaster sharing a tent with the vulnerable, beautiful boy..." fantasy is nothing but fantasy.  As a Girl Scout leader, we were required to share space -- tent, cabin or part of the floor -- ONLY with other adults.  We were separated from the girls as much as was safe with respect to their age and the facilities available.  Never in my 12 years of Scouting and several years of leadership would a girl be placed in a two person tent with an adult.  Even if a child gets sick, you can SIT with them but you cannot sleep in the same place.  This is for their own sense of independence and self-reliance as much as for personal safety.

        "There isn't a way things should be. There's just what happens, and what we do." — Terry Pratchett (A Hat Full of Sky)

        by stormicats on Mon Nov 12, 2012 at 01:01:25 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Yes, I agree. Thank you for (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          lgmcp, KathleenM1, stormicats

          another good answer to my question.

          All of your points are well made, informative, and completely relevant! While I am completely aware of the clear distinction that exists between pedophilia of any sort and homosexuality, I seem to myself have allowed that "myth" to enter my consciousness; if I hadn't, my comment would have been less "awkward". It shouldn't have been there, even a little bit. That makes me all the more anxious to see that evil myth

          dragged into the sunlight so it can burn like the nasty little bit of darkness that it is.

          "Bernie Madoff's mistake was stealing from the rich. If he'd stolen from the poor he'd have a cabinet position." -OPOL

          by blue in NC on Mon Nov 12, 2012 at 02:50:15 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

      •  WHAT??? (5+ / 0-)
        I have mixed feelings about how an organization that has so much potential close contact between men - some of them gay - who are pedophiles, and teenaged boys.
        Does this also apply to teachers, police, coaches, lifeguards, bus drivers and pedestrians?

        You need to either completely reword this, rethink it, or learn something about it. As written, this is obtuse, insulting, wrong on the facts and unacceptable.

        "I was a big supporter of waterboarding" - Dick Cheney 2/14/10

        by Bob Love on Mon Nov 12, 2012 at 01:03:35 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  I'll accept "reword this", but I tried - obviously (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          cherie clark, Bob Love

          clumsily - not to play along with the homophobic stereotype that "gay men tend to be pedophiles". I don't believe that, never have believed that, and have many gay friends who would remind me not to believe that if I ever exhibited a tendency to do so.

          So, I apologize for the poor wording of my comment.

          I hope you will apologize for the deliberate obnoxiousness of yours.

          "Bernie Madoff's mistake was stealing from the rich. If he'd stolen from the poor he'd have a cabinet position." -OPOL

          by blue in NC on Mon Nov 12, 2012 at 02:17:39 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  I have nothing to apologize for. (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Flying Goat, MahFellaMerkins

            If your comment didn't mirror your intent, I can only suggest you try harder to say what you mean.

            But do clarify what your "mixed feelings" are about. The comment is still quite literally obtuse, insulting, wrong on the facts and unacceptable.

            "I was a big supporter of waterboarding" - Dick Cheney 2/14/10

            by Bob Love on Mon Nov 12, 2012 at 02:32:51 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  And your attitude toward my apology is, (0+ / 0-)

              also, unacceptable.

              If you are incapable of making a point without resorting to namecalling and insults, than I can only suggest that you try harder to engage in civil discourse.

              Good day, sir.

              "Bernie Madoff's mistake was stealing from the rich. If he'd stolen from the poor he'd have a cabinet position." -OPOL

              by blue in NC on Mon Nov 12, 2012 at 02:35:30 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  So you won't even try to explain what you meant? (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Flying Goat, MahFellaMerkins

                Note: I didn't call you any names. Reality check?

                And frankly, as a gay man, I am completely justified in being insulted when gay men and pedophiles are lumped together. If you feel insulted by my backlash, look to your own insulting comments. You're lucky I didn't call you any of the names that come immediately to mind when people like you let offhand, thoughtless insults fly from your fingers.

                "Obtuse, insulting, wrong on the facts and unacceptable" are all objectively descriptive terms.  No wonder you have trouble converting meaning into writing.

                Have a self-reflective day.

                "I was a big supporter of waterboarding" - Dick Cheney 2/14/10

                by Bob Love on Mon Nov 12, 2012 at 02:48:55 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

          •  You said that you are concerned about (0+ / 0-)

            groups of men that have gay member having close contact with children.

            Not sure how someone could take this other than as homophobia, unless you're actually saying that about all men, and not just gay ones.  Which isn't exactly a whole lot better.

      •  I believe there's a 3-deep requirement (4+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        glorificus, lgmcp, chimpy, blue in NC

        for leadership now right? or for outings?

        Maybe that's just at Philmont (owned and operated by BSA). It mitigates the possibility of adults sharing tents with boys if 3 leaders are required.

        The disdain for Obama is so sad.

        When my sis was in the National Spelling Bee, her picture was in the paper shaking hands with Pat Nixon. Nixon himself fell a few years later, but we were pretty jazzed by that pic of my sis meeting the First Lady.

        •  Nope - systemic rule (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          lgmcp, blue in NC

          though both my sons left (1st Class and Life) when the troop leadership devolved to a dead right-winger

          There is no environmental, social, economic or resource problem that wouldn't be helped by 3 billion fwer people on the planet.

          by tjlord on Mon Nov 12, 2012 at 01:30:44 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

      •  Sorry, I missed this. (14+ / 0-)
        But gay scoutmasters who might be sharing a two-person tent with a 13-year-old boy?  How does an organization minimize the risk there?
        I'm going to be nice as possible.

        But your question is premised on the belief that adult gay men are somehow more tempted or more vulnerable to seducing minors that adult straight men or adult straight women.

        I am an adult gay man.

        I assure you, I have no more desire to have sex with a 13 year old than you do.

        I am as comfortable platonically sharing a tent with a 13 year old as any father would be with their own son.

        In the big picture, we do not segregate children away from adults of the opposite sex because there is a risk of molestation.

        We have co-ed educational situations, we have co-ed camping situations, where heterosexuals regularly have easy and unfettered access to children of opposite gender.

        We avoid such situations by assuring the adults who care for our children are psychologically healthy, known to the parents.

        We also educatie our kids to look out for themselves and alert other adults when they feel unhappy or uncomfortable in another adult's presence.

        Supporter: "Senator, you have the vote of every thinking person!" Adlai Stevenson: "That's not enough, madam, we need a majority!"

        by Scott Wooledge on Mon Nov 12, 2012 at 01:08:53 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Minimize risks, or merely their perception? (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          lgmcp, jkusters

          If it's the perception they want to minimize, then they've got every reason to bend cowardly with society's prejudices. If something happened, and the perpetrator turns out to be from one of many socially suspect groups, then parents who share that prejudice will ask, "Why couldn't you have seen the danger?" They could go along with commonly shared prejudices, or work to dispel them, and both would give the same long-term reassurance to parents. It's a shame they're choosing the former.

          To minimize actual risk, that is to aspire to their charter at least as urgently as to reach their marketing goals, they would do better to help dispel those myths. They would then be empowered to dig deeper into the character and motives of all leaders, irrespective of any one trait. No longer could a potential offender slip through the system by exploiting that fallacy of judgment: "I share a persistent and observable trait with you, therefore I am similar to you. Being similar to you, I can be trusted to act like you would act."

          Why is there a Confederate Flag flying in Afghanistan?

          by chimpy on Mon Nov 12, 2012 at 01:47:36 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

        •  Actually, Scott, we do. Or we should. (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          cherie clark

          Pedophiles are often hard to identify, and surround themselves with enablers who will vouch for their credibility.

          I would not put you in a tent with my 10 year old nephew. Nor would I allow my husband to sleep in a tent with my nephew's 10 year old buddy. I doubt neither of you at all. But some dad or uncle may not be as upstanding.

          We teach our kids not to put themselves in places where they could be vulnerable. A tent all night is too vulnerable until the boy is mature enough and frankly big enough to understand inappropriate sexual behavior and fight it off physically and even though the adult is an authority figure.

          We manage risk until the child understands fully and can manage the risk himself.  For some kids, it may be 11; for some 18. Children and teens mature at incredibly different rates.

          Adults don't sleep alone with children.

          © grover


          So if you get hit by a bus tonight, would you be satisfied with how you spent today, your last day on earth? Live like tomorrow is never guaranteed, because it's not. -- Me.

          by grover on Mon Nov 12, 2012 at 02:02:47 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Point taken. (7+ / 0-)

            But as I said in another comment, my memories of scouting are that argument is something of a strawman anyway.

            Kids in my troops slept with other kids, and the adults usually shared tents (or shared tents with their own sons).

            At the end of the day, the ban on gays does nothing to alleviate the responsibility of the adult to be sure kids are safe.

            It just presumes that gay = pedophile, as did the question I responded to.

            Supporter: "Senator, you have the vote of every thinking person!" Adlai Stevenson: "That's not enough, madam, we need a majority!"

            by Scott Wooledge on Mon Nov 12, 2012 at 02:17:54 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  Of course. We completely agree. (0+ / 0-)

              © grover


              So if you get hit by a bus tonight, would you be satisfied with how you spent today, your last day on earth? Live like tomorrow is never guaranteed, because it's not. -- Me.

              by grover on Mon Nov 12, 2012 at 03:14:23 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

        •  Thank you for one very good answer, Scott. (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Scott Wooledge, lgmcp, jkusters

          I did not intend to convey the idea that I believe that gay men are prone to such behavior. I think this sentence answered my sincere - and innocently-meant - question:

          We avoid such situations by assuring the adults who care for our children are psychologically healthy, known to the parents.
          Frankly, if I had children (I don't), I would be in no way be worried about a son spending time with a gay male friend for whom I had great respect, or a daughter spending time with a gay female friend of the same sort. In fact, I would be much more comfortable having a son go camping with such a gay male friend than I would be having him be a member of a bigoted, homophobic, discriminatory organization such as the boy scouts.

          "Bernie Madoff's mistake was stealing from the rich. If he'd stolen from the poor he'd have a cabinet position." -OPOL

          by blue in NC on Mon Nov 12, 2012 at 02:23:24 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  I have frequently babysat (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            blue in NC

            the children of my friends and family, alone. I'm certain the parents know their children are in very safe in every sense of the word.

            (My observation is we babysitters tend to treat the children as more precious than the parents themselves, who have learned not to hover too close or fret too much.)

            Supporter: "Senator, you have the vote of every thinking person!" Adlai Stevenson: "That's not enough, madam, we need a majority!"

            by Scott Wooledge on Mon Nov 12, 2012 at 02:27:06 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

        •  The risk is minimized this way - the same way it (0+ / 0-)

          is minimized for heterosexual men AND women who are involved with children.

          There was a church, I can't remember which one, that simply had a policy that children should never be alone with an adult who was not their parent.

          That's it - it's really quite simple.

          2 unrelated adults can supervise children and young people.

          No adult need share a pup tent with a child, or teenager unless it's their own child.

      •  you're mixing gay with pedophile. Pedophiles have (6+ / 0-)

        been a serious and zealously hidden problem in the Boy Scouts and the Catholic Church.
        Gay men are not the problem.

        We're not perfect, but they're nuts! -- Barney Frank

        by Tamar on Mon Nov 12, 2012 at 01:29:07 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  No I'm not. That is why I was very careful to say (0+ / 0-)
          ...potential close contact between men - some of them gay - who are pedophiles, and teenaged boys.
          The statement was directed at pedophiles, some of whom might be gay. Heck, I'd possibly have the same concern about a young daughter and a potential male pedophile too.

          However, Scott gave me a very calm and well-reasoned answer to my question; see it, and my reply to him, upthread. His explanation was very helpful.

          "Bernie Madoff's mistake was stealing from the rich. If he'd stolen from the poor he'd have a cabinet position." -OPOL

          by blue in NC on Mon Nov 12, 2012 at 02:28:03 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

      •  And I'd add lifting a blanket ban on every gay (4+ / 0-)

        person in no ways ties a local troops or local council's hands from deciding who is appropriate adult leadership and who is not.

        They don't have to ban every single gay person at the national level to ban specific people who, for whatever reason, give other parent's pause about their trustworthiness or character.

        An adult gay man who wishes to be a Scout leader, almost certainly will have a child in the troop, or will have come of age in that same troop as a scout, ergo be known to the community, and merely wants to be an included member.

        Random adults that enter a community without any affiliation and wish to volunteer with children's groups are indeed something of a red flag. Though, like sexual orientation it's no definitive indicator they have nefarious intent.

        Supporter: "Senator, you have the vote of every thinking person!" Adlai Stevenson: "That's not enough, madam, we need a majority!"

        by Scott Wooledge on Mon Nov 12, 2012 at 01:43:33 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  AND they banned a lesbian scout master (4+ / 0-)

        Who poses what (sexual) risk to young males at all????  

        My guess is that the known (reasonably provable, not wild accusations) instances of lesbian women who molest boys are pretty minimal. I'm inclined to say zero.

        © grover


        So if you get hit by a bus tonight, would you be satisfied with how you spent today, your last day on earth? Live like tomorrow is never guaranteed, because it's not. -- Me.

        by grover on Mon Nov 12, 2012 at 01:44:28 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Which is why, in my comment, I said (0+ / 0-)
          What on earth benefit to the "safety" of young boys was accomplished by banning that gay mom from Ohio from leading a Cub Scout Pack?

          "Bernie Madoff's mistake was stealing from the rich. If he'd stolen from the poor he'd have a cabinet position." -OPOL

          by blue in NC on Mon Nov 12, 2012 at 02:29:46 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

      •  Studies have been done and found that homosexual (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Scott Wooledge, blue in NC, lirtydies

        men are less likely to be pedophiles. Not saying there aren't any but not real common and I have trusted my sons with gay friends when they were young, I would not have done that with a daughter and a straight man. Congress needs to revoke the BSA's exclusive charter which would open up scouting to all. And you need to gain some insight into homosexuality and pedophilia, the two aren't the same. While I am at it, just because a man molests a boy doesn't mean he is gay. In fact while pedophiles may prefer one or the other, it has little to do with their sexual orientation and much more to do with the mental illness that is pedophilia. Pedophiles are sexually attracted to PRE-PUBESCENT CHILDREN. The gender of the child is not as important as access and opportunity.

        The work goes on, the cause endures, the hope still lives and the dreams shall never die. ~ Edward M. (Ted) Kennedy

        by cherie clark on Mon Nov 12, 2012 at 02:17:33 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Please...I understand that homosexuality and (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          cherie clark, Scott Wooledge

          pedophilia aren't the same. At all.

          My comment was poorly worded. Sorry.

          "Bernie Madoff's mistake was stealing from the rich. If he'd stolen from the poor he'd have a cabinet position." -OPOL

          by blue in NC on Mon Nov 12, 2012 at 02:31:22 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  You're forgiven, I posted this before I read your (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            blue in NC

            apology for your poor wording.

            The work goes on, the cause endures, the hope still lives and the dreams shall never die. ~ Edward M. (Ted) Kennedy

            by cherie clark on Mon Nov 12, 2012 at 02:33:40 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  Thank you! And your comment was instructive (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              cherie clark, lgmcp

              and polite, unlike another that I received here, so thank you for acting in such a civil fashion even before you read an apology from me!

              Perhaps it wasn't evident from my earlier comment, but I find myself regularly outraged by the ignorant bigots who do - probably deliberately in many cases - "confuse" pedophilia and homosexuality, and claim some sort of a synonymous relationship between them in order to justify their bigotry.

              "Bernie Madoff's mistake was stealing from the rich. If he'd stolen from the poor he'd have a cabinet position." -OPOL

              by blue in NC on Mon Nov 12, 2012 at 02:40:46 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

      •  Adults sleep in their OWN tents! (4+ / 0-)

        My son's an Eagle, and we are damn proud of his accomplishment. He loved it, the camping, the camaraderie, doing stuff with his dad and friends. He began at 6 years old and, at 24 now, wants to go back to the local troop as an adult leader. However, all was not sweetness and light.

        One year before attaining his Eagle, leaders of his troop accused him and several other boys of smoking pot at scout camp. We had blood and hair screenings done that proved his innocence, plus eyewitness accounts that put him in another area from where this was supposed to have occurred. My son is everything they claim they want to "help young men become". He was and is a leader. The authoritarian adult leaders hated that he was not afraid of them, and were scared shitless because he was about to attain a high position in the troop. They broke my son's heart by not "believing" his medical proof. Rather than stay with these assholes, and risk being denied his Eagle, he joined another troop.  But it hurt him - deeply - for years.

        So it's not just gay kids being treated like shit. Other kids in his troop were bullied and belittled, sometimes by the adults. If it had been up to me, he never would have joined Scouts, but his dad had been one and wanted it for our son. And to this day he remains friends with some of the boys, and loves canoeing and camping.

        In conclusion, the Scout leadership is wrong on every count concerning gay scouts and leaders. And not every scout, gay or straight, is persecuted. It depends on the troop and its leaders. And when they lean on the religious aspect of a scout's oath in defense of their bigotry toward LGBT kids, that just means it is THEIR interpretation of religion. Not mine, not my son's, and not Jesus' either.

        •  I'm sorry your son went through that, and it is (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          revsue

          a testimony to his character that he still wants to stay involved with scouting in spite of the abuse he suffered.

          He will undoubtedly lead a group of boys in a way that will build them up rather than tear them down, that will embrace their individuality rather than try to suppress it. Change in the BSA will only come from the "bottom up", forced by true leaders such as your son; the "top down" rot appears to have gotten worse, not better.

          Oh, and I get the "sleep in their own tents" part now. It has been explained to me in no uncertain terms, and I have the scars to show for it. ;-)

          "Bernie Madoff's mistake was stealing from the rich. If he'd stolen from the poor he'd have a cabinet position." -OPOL

          by blue in NC on Mon Nov 12, 2012 at 03:15:32 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Thanks for your kind response. (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            blue in NC, revsue

            And I am sorry that you got jumped on and "have the scars to show for it". The entire situation traumatized our entire family for a very long time. There are very few people in this world who I hate, but to this day, well, I'll just say I do NOT wish them well! Hurt my kid, and crazy "mother bear" Palin has NOTHING on me!

      •  Remember (4+ / 0-)

        that homosexuality is not pedophilia. Gay adults are not attracted to children. Pedophiles are attracted to children. Keep the two separated.

      •  I didn't know you could get a badge in (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        blue in NC

        Bigotry...this was an EAGLE SCOUT?  I thought Scouting built character.

        Oregon: Sure...it's cold. But it's a damp cold.

        by Keith930 on Mon Nov 12, 2012 at 06:27:29 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  blue in NC (0+ / 0-)

        FYI. Most pedophiles are straight men or women, not gay men or women.
        Your comment is very confusing to me.
        You also mention that they'd ban all those'straight' married men, right?  
        That makes no sense.

        If the Fetus you Saved was GAY, would you still fight for its RIGHT'S?

        by snoopydawg on Mon Nov 12, 2012 at 09:15:04 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Sigh. Yes, I know that most pedophiles are (0+ / 0-)

          "straight" - well, if there's anything "straight" about a criminal pervert of either sex.

          My comment about banning all those straight married men was an attempt at sarcasm on my part, evidently a weak one since the whole comment drew a scorching volley of flames.

          My point was that obviously BSA's bigoted banning of gay men and boys from scouting hasn't prevented massive child abuse from taking place, so maybe they should try banning all those straight men instead.

          "Bernie Madoff's mistake was stealing from the rich. If he'd stolen from the poor he'd have a cabinet position." -OPOL

          by blue in NC on Tue Nov 13, 2012 at 03:25:18 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

      •  My Eagle certificate was signed by Bill & Hillary (4+ / 0-)

        It is one of my most prized possessions. I loved Scouting growing up and I still value what it did for me, but today I'm disgusted by BSA's lack of bravery. They have basically been cowed by the LDS because a HUGE percentage of active Troops in the U.S. are all (or nearly all) Mormon.

        I've debated returning my Eagle Award (throwing it over the BSA's fence?), but can't go through with it because the award still means something to me and I think someday I would regret it if BSA changed its tune. I also don't think it would do any good right now; BSA simply doesn't give a shit about my award, whereas at least I still do.

      •  it's against the rules (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Scott Wooledge

        You wrote:

        But gay scoutmasters who might be sharing a two-person tent with a 13-year-old boy? How does an organization minimize the risk there?

        The BSA's youth protection rules prohibit an adult from being alone with a youth.    So an adult, gay or straight, should not be alone in a tent with a youth.

    •  Cheers for Ernst & Young, AT&T and UPS ! (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      coquiero

      Of course there are always too many Chik-Fill-As around...Hopefully this will change...discrimination and hurt of gay children has been going on way too long

      "Round up the usual suspects"

      by NanaoKnows on Mon Nov 12, 2012 at 08:37:46 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  There is or at least was a much more open and (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Scott Wooledge

      tolerant organization made to replace the Boy Scouts.  I think it was called Spiral Scouts but I can't be sure that's the correct name.

      You have watched Faux News, now lose 2d10 SAN.

      by Throw The Bums Out on Tue Nov 13, 2012 at 11:36:15 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  Very sensible (24+ / 0-)
    "organizations that conflict with UPS non-discrimination policy will not be considered eligible for funding"
    There's plenty of worthy causes in the world -- no need to support unworthy ones.

    It seems sad to me that BSA continues to double down on their homophobic stance.  Outdoor life and civic engagement are areas kids need more support in than ever, and BSA by cutting itself off from the trend of public opinion is choosing to wither on the vine.

    "The extinction of the human race will come from its inability to EMOTIONALLY comprehend the exponential function." -- Edward Teller

    by lgmcp on Mon Nov 12, 2012 at 11:45:04 AM PST

  •  Does this mean that I can ogle (16+ / 0-)

    UPS deliverymen with even better conscience?

    (sorry, had to ask!)

  •  Oh, I'm sure Chik-Fil-A would be happy to step in (23+ / 0-)

    and fill the void.

    It is too bad, though.  I know so many great kids (and grown ups) who were scouts.  Too bad that the national leadership is full of bigots.

  •  Great news, Scott. (14+ / 0-)

    Thanks for reporting.

    Let's hope it's a trend....

    Stonewall was a RIOT!

    by ExStr8 on Mon Nov 12, 2012 at 11:55:32 AM PST

  •  one by one (9+ / 0-)

    those that live in fear shall have their fears confronted and challenged.

    I am proud I was a scout.  I am not proud of the current leaderships' policies and prejudices now.  

    Let's move into the future!

  •  Boy Scouts also discriminate against (22+ / 0-)

    the non-believers in God.

    My Karma just ran over your Dogma

    by FoundingFatherDAR on Mon Nov 12, 2012 at 12:28:04 PM PST

  •  This is starting to sound a whole lot (13+ / 0-)

    like what happened when apartheid began to fall apart and all the pressure on corporate support and infrastructure to get with the program began.

    Takes me back to the late 80's early 90's and the days of Sun City boycotts and Africa Today.

    Words can sometimes, in moments of grace, attain the quality of deeds. --Elie Wiesel

    by a gilas girl on Mon Nov 12, 2012 at 12:29:56 PM PST

  •  Here's a list of companies that are still funding (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    lgmcp, lirtydies

    the BSA:
    http://www.scoutingforall.org/...

    I'm not sure how current the list is, and there are several otherwise gay-friendly companies on it.

  •  The BSA not only says that gay (7+ / 0-)

    males can't be recipients of their fine morals and character building organization, but that atheist/agnostic young men and leaders are to be shun from their ranks also.

    Can't have morals if you're gay, can't have morals if you don't believe in fairy tales and gods.

    All in all, a fine organization. And now it's one worthy of our contempt.

    By the way, where are the parents of the kids in all this? What parent would put their kid in an organization that teaches only some of the world can be taught to be good moral citizens while at the same time, covers up crimes?  Oh wait... there's another organization with the same problems....

    •  Parents are mixed. (6+ / 0-)

      There are lots of parents who decline to enroll their kids in the org over this. Which clearly is a fine choice to make.

      But, if change ever comes, it will come from the grassroots up, and that will require progressive parents and Scouts to continue pushing from below for change.

      So, I wouldn't presume all parents involved are quietly going along to get along. Many are working hard to drag BSA into the 21st century, kicking and screaming all the way.

      And Zach Wahls and his team needs them to cover his back.

      Supporter: "Senator, you have the vote of every thinking person!" Adlai Stevenson: "That's not enough, madam, we need a majority!"

      by Scott Wooledge on Mon Nov 12, 2012 at 01:12:51 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  My husband and I, and some friends of ours, met (4+ / 0-)

        with 2 local troop leaders after I complained about a Boy Scout recruiting email posted on the PTA listserve. The PTA president (a terrific guy), invited us to his house to talk about the issues.
        The 2 troop leaders shared our values on sexual orientation but are devoted to scouting. They have a written statement for their troop saying they will not discriminate based on sexual orientation or religious views.
        However, they admitted that they survive by flying under the radar. They also brought with them a local Cub Scout leader who is lesbian. She grew up in a scouting family and wants her sons to have that experience.
        I disagree with them -- after all, their dues help support the bigoted national structure of Boy Scouts, but I respect them for their commitment to the kids. And I do think that the more troops like them there are, the more likely there will be change in the organization.
        But the bottom line for me is always: if the national organization said no African Americans or Jews were welcome, would people like these troop leaders make the same choices they've made when it comes to sexual orientation? (I actually know they wouldn't since one of the leaders is Jewish!).

        We're not perfect, but they're nuts! -- Barney Frank

        by Tamar on Mon Nov 12, 2012 at 01:41:22 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  I have heard lots of troops (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Tamar, lirtydies, Cassandra Waites

          do have "DADT" policies, and quietly ignore the national policy.

          Frequently these blow-ups, like the Jennifer Tyrrell story, happen because that had been the case.

          Then one bigoted parent makes a stink usually over nothing, just the knowledge a person is gay, and draws the national board's attention. And the national board sides with the loudmouth bigot.

          And in the case of Tyrrell, and many like hers, the LGBT person actually has the support of the locals who don't agree with banishment and national overrides their wishes.

          In Tyrrell's case at least one regional council member resigned in protest.

          But that's how national wants to play it out. Ignore the local dissent, make them comply.

          Supporter: "Senator, you have the vote of every thinking person!" Adlai Stevenson: "That's not enough, madam, we need a majority!"

          by Scott Wooledge on Mon Nov 12, 2012 at 02:09:13 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  the BSA had the opportunity to allow each troop (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Scott Wooledge, Cassandra Waites

            to make its own choices -- wouldn't have fully resolved the problem, but would certainly have improved things.
            But they chose not to go even that short distance.
            They are truly a despicable group.
            I was just wondering why the Mormon and Catholic churches haven't had the same deleterious effect on the Girl Scouts?

            We're not perfect, but they're nuts! -- Barney Frank

            by Tamar on Mon Nov 12, 2012 at 02:26:53 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  I agree. It's true. (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Cassandra Waites, Tamar

              There was a proposal to relinquish this policy to the local level, so at least in blue states, and progressive areas, troops could choose their own policy vis a vis LGBT leadership and members.

              But nope.

              Not even that was acceptable to the national board.

              They just couldn't bear the thought of awarding an Eagle to a gay person (though obviously they already have many times).

              Supporter: "Senator, you have the vote of every thinking person!" Adlai Stevenson: "That's not enough, madam, we need a majority!"

              by Scott Wooledge on Mon Nov 12, 2012 at 02:30:52 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

            •  The Mormons have their own group for girls (3+ / 0-)

              because the GSUSA is raising up feminists, don't you know.  Also the Girl Scouts didn't have to go hat in hand to the Mormons for financial backing.

          •  A lot of us did DADT (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Scott Wooledge, Cassandra Waites

            Until the SCOTUS decision on Dale.  My troop folded after 52 years of service because our charter wasn't renewed.  Our charter was held by United Church of Christ and UCC filed a friend of the court brief on Dale's behalf.  

            We were asked to sign a letter that, despite our chartering organization's open and affirming policy, that we would adhere to the BSA policy and not admit any gay leaders.  Considering we had 4 boys with gay relatives, who went hiking with us and taught several required merit badges, we refused to sign it and BSA would not let us renew.  

            We knew who our leaders were - they were all related to a kid in the troop - everybody knew everybody else and nobody cared about anybody's orientation (other than the kind that you teach when using a compass).  

            My son is an Eagle Scout, currently lives in Canada, where Scouting is open to all.  He treasures all the memories and experiences, Philmont, OA, working on summer camp staff.  He knows several Eagles who are gay and some OA Vigil Honor guys, too.  Doesn't matter - it's just part of who they are - they are still his brothers who share a love of camping, hiking, the environment, helping others in times of need...

            His aunt is a lesbian and captain in the fire department.  She was one of our first aid and safety counselors.  She was really into hiking and frequently was my second adult on day hikes for the troop.  

            For us, it was all about what we had in common and doing the things we enjoyed with people who felt the same way.  Didn't matter one little bit until SCOTUS ruled in favor of BSA.  Only troops left in my district now are Mormon or Catholic.  We went from over 60 units serving over 3,000 boys (January 2000) to less than 10 units (January 2002).  

            "Focusing your life solely on making a buck shows a certain poverty of ambition. It asks too little of yourself. Because it's only when you hitch your wagon to something larger than yourself that you realize your true potential." - Barack Obama

            by Ricochet67 on Mon Nov 12, 2012 at 05:41:44 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

      •  Well, one can hope that change can come from (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        lirtydies, LilithGardener

        the grassroots up... however, people have been trying to do the same thing with the Catholic church for 2000 years with no luck.  

        Sometimes change comes more quickly when the money dries up.  The only way to do that is to walk out the doors and start your own organization.

      •  You are right - I leave it up to each parent (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Scott Wooledge

        who knows their local troop and how it operates. I suspect there are a lot parents who are quietly working behind the scenes with other like-minded parents, to reject the bigotry and keep all the good stuff.

        Might lead to a split - where the national org has to allow each troop to set their own policy. There may be many steps.

        I say this is one org where walking away is hard for some to do - put enough pressure, and National will cave. Let the religious bigots pull their kids out.

        Go UPS - they are taking an important lead.

    •  FWIW, I spoke to a gay dad (8+ / 0-)

      he and his husband let their 8-year old become a Scout. He was expressing reservations--obviously--but said, "I can't deny my son anything, and he really wanted to join, and loves it."

      I told him I thought he made the right choice.

      Being out parents, who are known and respected by the other parents of kids in the troop (which he assured me was the case) is a form of activism.

      The other troop parents can see that the BSA's policy is bullshit.

      Supporter: "Senator, you have the vote of every thinking person!" Adlai Stevenson: "That's not enough, madam, we need a majority!"

      by Scott Wooledge on Mon Nov 12, 2012 at 01:20:12 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  This doesn't address the fact that the whole (0+ / 0-)

        organization is tied by its purse strings to Christian churches, and it discriminates against atheist children and their parents.

        I often think that atheists have the same "coming out of the closet" issues as gays.  I kind of wish that there was some solidarity there too on the part of gay parents.

        •  You're right it doesn't. (3+ / 0-)

          But none of us can live on the grid and lead a perfectly pure existence.

          We've both doubtlessly helped make the Koch Brothers or their oppressive ilk wealthier in countless ways just this week whether we realize it or not.

          It's not like Scout dues are so huge. Most of Scouts money comes from charitable/corporate giving like this.

          Supporter: "Senator, you have the vote of every thinking person!" Adlai Stevenson: "That's not enough, madam, we need a majority!"

          by Scott Wooledge on Mon Nov 12, 2012 at 02:12:44 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Of course there are situations (0+ / 0-)

            that intertwine our funds and support that would take a lot of investigation and unwinding to figure out. But this is not that kind of situation.

            The BSA discriminates against gays and atheists and that discrimination if right there in their policies. They act as an arm of religion too. Plus they have been involved in a rather large cover up of crimes against children. You join them just like you join a church or join a country club. It's not complicated.  If you join an institution that discriminates and covers up crime, you have a simple solution... walk out the doors.   And you certainly can explain to a child who is begging to join this that the institution is immoral and you don't want him exposed to that nor do you want to support it in any way.

      •  Make the policy become a paper tiger - the (0+ / 0-)

        paper gets thinner and thinner with each passing year.

        Let the bigoted troops and parents secede!

    •  I'm an Eagle Scout w/ a 9 month old son... (3+ / 0-)

      ...and I'm very torn about this.

      To be clear, I am NOT torn about the BSA's ridiculous exclusionary and hurtful policies, but I learned a hell of a lot about life (more than from school) from my time in the organization, both as a scout and as an assistant Scoutmaster for a couple years after I got my Eagle.

      I am, however, torn about whether I should go back on my pledge to never expose my son to such an organization.  My original thoughts were that keeping him out was setting an example of how to not support such organizations, but now I'm thinking that organizations like this (i.e., ones that may be worth saving due to their other merits) need changing from the inside.  Maybe that's the better example to set for my son.

      Who knows... maybe it'll be a moot point by the time he's old enough to join.

      "The political system, including elections, is carefully managed to prevent the threat of democracy."  ~Noam Chomsky

      -7.38, -6.97

      by cotasm on Mon Nov 12, 2012 at 02:28:42 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  I can only tell you something my son learned (3+ / 0-)

        When he crossed over into Scouts from Cubs, the troop we chose was well known and had a very good reputation in the district.  

        But during our first meeting, while I was in the parents' committee meeting and the scoutmaster was giving his report on the past month's activities, we hear an uproar from the scouts' hall...

        Going outside we find 3 of the new scouts in tears, in the parking lot, including my son.  One of the bigger kids thought it would be funny to scare them by trying to literally run one of them up the flag pole while they were practicing one of their Tenderfoot requirements.  They tore his new uniform pants.  My son was yelling about the scout law and what kind of people said they were scouts but were UNkind, UNfriendly, UNhelpful...

        The scoutmaster sent the 2 instigators home, stripped the SPL of his leadership position and made the rest of them apologize.  But my son just wanted to go home.  He said they ruined his idea of what scouts were all about.  I was heartbroken - he had loved cubs so much and could not wait to be a Boy Scout...

        That night both the scoutmaster and assistant scoutmaster called him.  But he didn't want to go back.  Tuesday nights were sad.  Then, after 3 weeks, he asked me if I had Mr. Bergman's number (the assistant SM).  I did and gave it to him.  He called and they had a fairly long conversation.  

        A few days later he said, I think I want to go to the troop meeting on Tuesday.  I'm like, OK, are you sure?  And he said no, but he had to find out something.

        So we went.  He was welcomed back, warmly, by everybody.  They were working on some plans for a camp out and asked him lots of questions about helping plan some activities for new scouts.  

        I was surprised when he came out of the meeting and said he wanted to keep coming back every Tuesday.  

        And that's when he told me about his conversation with Mr. Bergman.  

        Mr. B. was very sorry about his first experience and he was embarrassed by it.  He told Ryan that he was a good scout, with good instincts and that he was just the kind of scout they wanted in their troop.  

        He didn't want Ryan to be unhappy so he asked him to think about what he thought would make him happy to stay in scouting, or find another outlet.  

        He said, you could do something else, youth sports or something like that - there are lots of good programs.

        You can transfer to another troop and stay in scouting and not have to worry that this troop won't treat you right.

        Or you can come back and help me make this troop better, so that it's a place where other new scouts will want to come and learn and have fun.  

        Stay and make it better.  

        Ryan never forgot that - he did go back and he did make it better.   He participated on many levels and got the troop more involved in district and council events.  He found out about the OA and got involved in that, and got other kids involved in it.  He went to Philmont & NOAC.  He made Eagle, taught all the animal and environmental science badges on summer camp staff.   He joined APhiO in college.  

        And during his thank you speech for Eagle, he thanked Mr. Bergman especially, for opening the door and supporting him when he came back to make it better, and for giving him the courage to come back as a 10-1/2 year old tenderfoot to show those guys he WAS a good scout.  

        He was in college when our troop folded - we weren't allowed to recharter since the United Church of Christ wouldn't sign the letters agreeing to discriminate - we are an open and affirming church, the Dale decision in 2000 was against everything our church believes in.  I know if we were still active, we'd both be fighting these policies, until every boy is allowed to be a scout and every leader who wants to help and is willing to take all the training required for whatever position they want to help fill, is allowed to do so.  

        "Focusing your life solely on making a buck shows a certain poverty of ambition. It asks too little of yourself. Because it's only when you hitch your wagon to something larger than yourself that you realize your true potential." - Barack Obama

        by Ricochet67 on Mon Nov 12, 2012 at 06:48:07 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Thank you! Stories like Ryan's are exactly (0+ / 0-)

          what has driven me to rethink my position!

          "The political system, including elections, is carefully managed to prevent the threat of democracy."  ~Noam Chomsky

          -7.38, -6.97

          by cotasm on Tue Nov 13, 2012 at 02:20:06 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

      •  I think it kind of depends (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        cotasm

        if your local troop are true believer, party liners, or the kind of troop that doesn't care that much, or is maybe defiant.

        Way back in Michigan in the 70s and 80s, I wouldn't have even known BSA was "Christian." We really didn't go in on all that. We just hiked, and camped and skiied and fished, etc.

        I'd say keep the idea open. If he wants to join, the two of you can talk about it. It might be a good opportunity for a lesson about diversity and inclusion, too. See what he thinks about inclusive and exclusive groups?

        Usually kids have pleasantly surprising things to say.

        Supporter: "Senator, you have the vote of every thinking person!" Adlai Stevenson: "That's not enough, madam, we need a majority!"

        by Scott Wooledge on Mon Nov 12, 2012 at 09:03:45 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  I counseled depending on your local troop (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        cotasm

        because, as a child, the national policy won't really impact your son--unless the troop is filled with true believers.

        (Or if your son eventually turns out to be gay, then, well, who know? Could be heartbreak, could be a necessary learning and growth life experience. Lots of gay men have happy memories of Scouts, so it wouldn't necessarily be a bad environment.)

        If you get to know, and observe, the troop you can probably get a sense pretty quick if the individual troop is going to be the sort of influence you want on your son, or not.

        You'll see if they are the kind of people you want to trust to mold your son. You could have a conversation with the leaders too. You could find it's run by parents who, like you, disagree with the national policy. You might be surprised.

        Supporter: "Senator, you have the vote of every thinking person!" Adlai Stevenson: "That's not enough, madam, we need a majority!"

        by Scott Wooledge on Mon Nov 12, 2012 at 09:11:11 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

  •  I remember my scout troop had Atheists (3+ / 0-)

    I was worried they were going to get kicked out. They never did. They just tended to sort of leave, though.

    So though BSA has a no-atheist policy, I think there are a lot of decent people down the leadership line who know what is important and won't turn someone in for that. But still, their having an official policy like that is troubling.

  •  This sucks (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Scott Wooledge, Cassandra Waites

    BSA offers a lot to kids. I learned a ton of useful skills and life skills from the org. Why they gotta be filled with gay-bashing pedophiles now?

    UPS made the right choice.  Maybe some group of parents will take over BSA and make it what it should be.

    We get what we want - or what we fail to refuse. - Muhammad Yunus

    by nightsweat on Mon Nov 12, 2012 at 01:40:06 PM PST

  •  Slim chance of changing BSA policy (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    My Spin

    There is huge influence from the Mormon church. Over 69% of all troops are chartered under a faith based group, and nearly 25% of scouts in a faith based troop are Mormon.
    http://www.scouting.org/...

    ■The Scouting unit within the Church is an extension of the home and Church and functions as an integral part of the Church’s activity program.
    ■A Cub Scout pack, Boy Scout troop, and Varsity team should be chartered by every ward and branch that has two or more boys of the particular age served by the program.
    ■Venturing is optional, but recommended, as the activity of the priests’ quorum.
    It is, to all intents and purposes, the only program offered to Mormon boys, unlike other denominations that have their own internal youth programs for boys and girls. Of course, in addition to the substantial numeric influence, there is extremely substantial monetary influence as well.

    "...you can’t find any oxygen from outside the aircraft to get in the aircraft, because the windows don’t open. I don’t know why they don’t do that. It’s a real problem." Mitt Romney

    by Catte Nappe on Mon Nov 12, 2012 at 02:08:29 PM PST

    •  The 69% faith based (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Catte Nappe, Cassandra Waites

      is by no means determinative. That also includes Unitarian, Episcopal, and other flat out LGBT supportive denominations.

      I also can't see many of the moderate Churches, like mine, Presbyterian, taking their balls and going home over a change in policy.

      The Mormons are powerful, but not an all-powerful influence.

      Supporter: "Senator, you have the vote of every thinking person!" Adlai Stevenson: "That's not enough, madam, we need a majority!"

      by Scott Wooledge on Mon Nov 12, 2012 at 02:34:50 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  I said "slim" chance, not zero chance (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Scott Wooledge

        But in essence the BSA has around 10 - 15% of it's enrollment in Mormon sponsored troopsa alone, and the amount of money available for facilities, campgrounds, etc. by the church is disproportionate compared to the more liberal faith based (or totally secular) sponsors. Combine that with the third largest sponsoring group - the Catholic Church, along with its money - and there's a pretty high hill to climb to get any changes made. I think an equally likely outcome is that BSA gradually shrinks and becomes a less inclusive organization; and some other existing or yet to be founded organization takes its place for the broader population.

        "...you can’t find any oxygen from outside the aircraft to get in the aircraft, because the windows don’t open. I don’t know why they don’t do that. It’s a real problem." Mitt Romney

        by Catte Nappe on Mon Nov 12, 2012 at 03:09:40 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  I honestly think the chances of change (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Cassandra Waites, Catte Nappe

          are better than slim. I do have some inside knowledge of what's happening at the national level, and the situation is not as hopeless as many assume.

          (Sorry, sworn to secrecy.)

          Let's just say, the force for status quo are under tremendous pressure, left, right and center. The pieces are in place, this is one.

          Supporter: "Senator, you have the vote of every thinking person!" Adlai Stevenson: "That's not enough, madam, we need a majority!"

          by Scott Wooledge on Mon Nov 12, 2012 at 03:21:51 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Without knowing inside information, (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Catte Nappe, Scott Wooledge

            I have to believe that there are pragmatic conservatives inside the organization who are of the opinion that, regardless of their personal opinions about sexual orientation, it's unwise for them and the organization to die on this hill.  Well, I keep hoping...

            "The first drawback of anger is that it destroys your inner peace; the second is that it distorts your view of reality. If you come to understand that anger is really unhelpful, you can begin to distance yourself from anger." - The Dalai Lama

            by auron renouille on Tue Nov 13, 2012 at 07:31:32 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

    •  How long has that been going on? (0+ / 0-)

      I was a cub scout to boy scout in suburban Phoenix in the '80s and '90s and I somehow managed to not learn of the close LDS connection.  Is this new?  We did have struggles over who would be our troop leader but I'm led to believe that was more of a financial and clique-driven issue more than anything else.

      "The first drawback of anger is that it destroys your inner peace; the second is that it distorts your view of reality. If you come to understand that anger is really unhelpful, you can begin to distance yourself from anger." - The Dalai Lama

      by auron renouille on Tue Nov 13, 2012 at 07:29:35 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Quite awhile, apparently (0+ / 0-)
        ■Recognized as a part of the Boy Scouts of America in 1913, Scouting in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints works to provide leisure-time activities, particularly along spiritual and cultural lines, for the young men of the Church.
        http://www.scouting.org/...
        The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints was the first partner to sponsor Scouting in the United States, adopting the program in 1913 as part of its Mutual Improvement Association program for young men.[18
        http://en.wikipedia.org/...

        However, their troops have been fairly insular and unless you were in a heavily Mormon area you wouldn't have any reason to note the connection. It's just that, over the years, they have become such a large part of the Scout organization, including financial support, that they wield undue influence.

        "...you can’t find any oxygen from outside the aircraft to get in the aircraft, because the windows don’t open. I don’t know why they don’t do that. It’s a real problem." Mitt Romney

        by Catte Nappe on Wed Nov 14, 2012 at 07:36:01 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

  •  Am I correct in understanding that (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Scott Wooledge, Cassandra Waites

    it is only in the US that this policy banning gays is in place - not in England and other countries?  If so, I renounce my own association with the Eagle Scouts many, many years ago in a small town in Kentucky.  I am a proud gay disabled Vietnam veteran who was once a  Boy Scout/Eagle Scout.  This is sickening.  Finally, the US military comes to its senses - and the Boy Scouts and the Catholic Church double down on hatred and homophobia.  Fuck them.

    •  You are correct. (3+ / 0-)

      USA is pretty much alone in the international Scouting on this ban. It does not apply in Europe or elsewhere.

      Homosexual people are not restricted from membership or leadership positions in Scouts Canada, Scouts Australia, and most European associations, including The Scout Association of the United Kingdom, Ring deutscher Pfadfinderverbände of Germany (German Scout Federation), and the Swedish Guide and Scout Association.[9]
       
      in the wake of their most recent announcement keeping the ban, Scouts Canada went out of their way in a press release to say they were inclusive and BSA's announcement did not apply to them.

      It appeared like they wanted to do damage control on their brand. "We're totally not like BSA!"

      Supporter: "Senator, you have the vote of every thinking person!" Adlai Stevenson: "That's not enough, madam, we need a majority!"

      by Scott Wooledge on Mon Nov 12, 2012 at 02:41:22 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  I quit scouting when I was old enough to realize (3+ / 0-)

      that atheists weren't actually welcome.  I was always happy to learn new skills, and get the badges to proclaim that I had, but I quickly realized that I was lying every time I said some oath that talked about believing in God, and I was damned if I was going to be a liar just to 'belong'.

  •  UPS is also supporting Occupy Sandy Relief (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Scott Wooledge, Cassandra Waites
    http://www.democraticunderground.com/...

    They've received so many donations [after setting up an Amazon.com Gift Registry] that UPS has agreed to donate a fleet of delivery trucks!

    http://twitter.com/...
    http://twitter.com/...

    If you prefer to bypass Amazon, and want to give UPS some business, this diary lists addresses for direct donations shipped to one of Occupy Sandy's distribution hubs in NYC or Jersey City, NJ.

    OccupySandy - direct donations through Amazon registry or St. Jacobi Church (UPDATEDx4)

    Scott - I apologize if this comment is thread hijacking. I'm a new diarist and have been covering Occupy for the past week.

  •  best story I read all day. (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Scott Wooledge, Cassandra Waites

    thanks for this, scott... probably wouldn't have known about it.

    Toleration is the greatest gift of the mind; it requires the same effort of the brain that it takes to balance oneself on a bicycle. -Helen Keller

    by ridemybike on Mon Nov 12, 2012 at 04:03:32 PM PST

  •  Be more interesting if they no longer delivered (0+ / 0-)

    packages to them as well.  Just flat out told the organization to use the post office or Fed-Ex for their delivery needs.

    •  more interesting (0+ / 0-)

      but serious fodder for the Christians to climb up on their reverse discrimination cross.

      I'd advise against it if UPS floated the idea to me.

      UPS is basically a public accommodation and bigots have rights too.

      (No one has a right to be beneficiaries of UPS' charity programs, that being the key difference.)

      Supporter: "Senator, you have the vote of every thinking person!" Adlai Stevenson: "That's not enough, madam, we need a majority!"

      by Scott Wooledge on Mon Nov 12, 2012 at 04:20:56 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  Not sure you want me "singing here" (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Scott Wooledge, jayden

    but I certainly support and have signed your petition. (You haven't heard me croaking.)

    Thanks!

    I prefer someone who burns the flag and then wraps himself in the Constitution than someone who burns the Constitution and then wraps himself in the flag! Molly Ivins

    by SomeStones on Mon Nov 12, 2012 at 04:56:48 PM PST

  •  As a former scout and current scoutmaster (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    jayden

    Let me add some perspective

    First, one thing the BSA should be commended for is the current youth protection policies (not the anti-gay policies)

    Every adult volunteer has to take youth protection training, no adult is to be alone with any scout who is not his/her child)  Two adults must be present at all times (this is called 2 deep leadership) and it is an absolute.   Any allegation of abuse is to be immediately reported, no exceptions

    Second, the scouts do teach many wonderful values.  The scout law (that a scout is trustworthy, loyal, helpful, friendly, curteous, kind..) is actually pretty awesome  - and we would be a better world if we all lived by those ideals.  Last week I was at my daughter's social thinking class, and they were going over what makes a good friend.  "Loyal, tells the truth, you can trust them"    -  I went "holy crap, it's the scout law

    Last, I hate the scouts anti gay policy.  I think much of it stems from the influence the LDS church has on scouting (which is extensive)

    Unfortunately, I think the scouts are stuck between two difficult choices  -  Change the policy and lose the support of the LDS (and a LOT of money) or lose support of almost everyone else.  It really is quite sad

    •  I have on many occaisions (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      jayden

      said many good things about the program of Scouting and many of the people who work in Scouting. And I do have respect for much about Scouting.

      That wasn't really the point of this diary, which was to relay news of their discriminatory policies.

      Until they end, they will continue to overshadow many other news about the organization unfortunately.

      Supporter: "Senator, you have the vote of every thinking person!" Adlai Stevenson: "That's not enough, madam, we need a majority!"

      by Scott Wooledge on Mon Nov 12, 2012 at 05:59:42 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  I was a scout, and I think that the Scouts (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      diggerspop

      are so, so wrong.  Nobody's asking them to get involved in the gay marriage debate, just to accept equality of membership.  Thankfully, Scouts are young and the organization can choose not to address issues of marriage, sexual activity, etc., ducking the issue and instead rolling that into celibacy-before-marriage.  (Scout leaders are another story).

      Serious question - what does the LDS church say about gay members?  I'm sure that the LDS elders aren't down with gay sex, but simply an unmarried gay person joining?  I'm of the mind that the Scouts may be to the right of the LDS church here.

      In fact, after some googling, it seems that President Hinckley went on record supporting gay members of the LDS church so long as they are celibate as early as 1998.  Is that fair?  No.  But that's to the left of the Scouts.

      They're fighting the wrong battle here and by politicizing this they will permanently damage their "brand."

      "The first drawback of anger is that it destroys your inner peace; the second is that it distorts your view of reality. If you come to understand that anger is really unhelpful, you can begin to distance yourself from anger." - The Dalai Lama

      by auron renouille on Tue Nov 13, 2012 at 07:27:42 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  LDS is opposed to marriage equality (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        diggerspop
        •  Yes, but we're not talking about marriage equality (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          diggerspop

          I was solely looking at whether or not self-identified gays are allowed membership in the organization; they are in LDS but not in Scouts.  I think that's significant and it really doesn't allow them to hide behind the "but we're big amongst LDS communities" line.

          "The first drawback of anger is that it destroys your inner peace; the second is that it distorts your view of reality. If you come to understand that anger is really unhelpful, you can begin to distance yourself from anger." - The Dalai Lama

          by auron renouille on Tue Nov 13, 2012 at 09:08:52 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

  •  Well, I'm off to work-at UPS (4+ / 0-)

    and I'll have a little better attitude due to this story.

  •  the tide is turning. (4+ / 0-)

    i don't know that it has yet reached the tipping point, but it's getting there. soon, discrimination will be the odd man out, equality and tolerance the norm. it just takes time and persistence.

  •  Any Organization That Claims No Gays & Atheists (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    diggerspop

    ....will be packed with grifters, hypocrites,  and pedophiles

    There’s always free cheddar in a mousetrap, baby

    by bernardpliers on Tue Nov 13, 2012 at 07:02:26 PM PST

  •  My, my, my, isn't karma a cast-iron bitch? (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    diggerspop, Scott Wooledge

    YES WE DID -- AGAIN. FOUR MORE YEARS.

    by raincrow on Tue Nov 13, 2012 at 07:32:24 PM PST

  •  UU has a strained relationship with the BSA (3+ / 0-)

    It's not just gays and atheists who are discriminated against. The BSA has had a very rocky relationship with the Unitarian Universalist church over the Religion in Life badge, which is no longer given to UU scouts. The discrimination against LGBTs and nonbelievers violates the first principle of the UU church, which is the inherent worth and dignity of every person. There used to be a very good relationship between the UU church and the Boy Scouts, but that all fell apart a decade ago over the UU requirements submitted to the BSA to earn a Religion in Life badge.

    Long story short, UU scouts cannot earn a badge like their fellow Christian, Muslim, Jewish, Buddhist, and Hindu friends. Given that many UU members are also LGBT and/or nonbelievers, it's only a matter of time until the BSA disqualifies UU scouts altogether.

    Eat, breed, die. Everything else is a diversion.

    by ooddaa on Tue Nov 13, 2012 at 07:48:55 PM PST

  •  my ups guy (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    diggerspop, Scott Wooledge

    is Gay - never talked to him about this, but his image keeps coming to mind when I've been reading about this today. Boy Scouts, like the catholic church, have to clean their own houses before judging others' ...

    Women are 51% of the population yet are represented in congress by barely 17%! Until our representation reflects the population, we risk sliding backwards .....

    by 51percent on Tue Nov 13, 2012 at 08:58:55 PM PST

  •  You just can't do this stuff anymore. (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Scott Wooledge

    People are going to have to accept that things that were OK even a few years ago aren't OK anymore, and get with the times.  It's the sociological equivalent of clinging to the notion of an earth-centric universe after Copernicus.  Start  a non-discriminatory competitor to the BSA, but leave the rest of its philosophy intact (including religion, like it or not), and see what happens.  You'd need some money and high-power endorsements, but with those things such a group should get traction.  Then the BSA would have a choice to make.

    Out here in the fields...

    by Martin Gale on Wed Nov 14, 2012 at 02:08:41 AM PST

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