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Yep, that's right.  In gas-guzzling America, the consensus is that the Tesla Model S is the best car of 2013.  Motor Trend even went so far as to call it the most important new car  since the Model T.

This is the same Tesla that Romney continually tried to trash and that was able to be developed because of loans from the Obama Administration.  It is the first electric car with a long range(up to 300 miles) and it will force global, traditional automakers to move forward with vehicle electrification.

The Tesla Model S, the all-electric sports sedan from Elon Musk's Tesla Motors, has picked up yet another ringing endorsement for its virtues as a car, not just an eco-friendly one: The Model S was named Motor Trend's Car of the Year 2013, as Musk announced at an event in New York City on Monday.

snip

The honor comes on the heels of the Model S being named Automobile Magazine's Automobile of the Year 2013 and Yahoo Autos' Car of the Year 2013. The Model S, which gets 300 miles per charge (traveling at 55 miles per hour) starts at $49,000 and is available for reservation online now, though pre-orders are backed up. Musk earlier in September unveiled a network of supercharging stations in California.  

http://livewire.talkingpointsmemo.com/...

Republicans keep on spouting off all the nonsense about the government not being able to pick winners, but this fantastic car sure shows that the government can play a very important role in driving forward ground-breaking technology and innovative companies.

Big Oil hates it, of course, since you now can basically do all your driving with sunlight if you have a renewables electricity plan or have solar panels installed on your garage.  

The Motor Trend video review, for your enjoyment:

Originally posted to Lawrence on Mon Nov 12, 2012 at 05:18 PM PST.

Also republished by Climate Change SOS and Kosowatt.

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  •  Tip Jar (148+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    ExStr8, GreenMtnState, aseth, SoCaliana, Yamara, concernedamerican, joelado, InsultComicDog, rasbobbo, yet another liberal, elwior, cotterperson, Matt Esler, Polly Syllabic, Caelian, tofumagoo, pat bunny, ruscle, jazzence, Habitat Vic, Thinking Fella, ktar7582, HoundDog, Bob Love, Bongobanger, blue jersey mom, Crider, DaveVH, Cronesense, cany, SCFrog, jwinIL14, petulans, Troubadour, slowbutsure, Buckeye54, Sanuk, mookins, Clyde the Cat, filby, Lorikeet, OrganizedCrime, venger, MarkInSanFran, One Pissed Off Liberal, mconvente, George3, indie17, CTLiberal, eeff, david78209, Rosaura, MySobriquet, DeminNewJ, paradox, Hirodog, javan, barbwires, claude, wader, nailbender, gulfgal98, shopkeeper, copymark, Losty, Mentatmark, kevinpdx, where4art, nirbama, davehouck, wbr, wayoutinthestix, MJ via Chicago, paul2port, SherwoodB, deerang, pragmaticidealist, roses, Shockwave, Babsnc, Ohiocrat, cordgrass, defluxion10, Larsstephens, elginblt, pcl07, Meteor Blades, pileta, ksh01, Odysseus, Chi, jan4insight, bnasley, immigradvocate, Vent, Dogs are fuzzy, BlueDragon, chuck utzman, offgrid, science nerd, VTCC73, MBishop1, jamess, Chaddiwicker, bloomer 101, dotsright, second gen, mahakali overdrive, Jujuree, chicagoblueohio, Lujane, Hey338Too, Bule Betawi, Eric Nelson, thomask, azrefugee, Dancun74, uciguy30, DEMonrat ankle biter, RJP9999, Assaf, antirove, Liberaljentaps, ivote2004, camlbacker, Egalitare, deepeco, G2geek, radarlady, riverlover, Sandy on Signal, buckstop, AnnetteK, YaNevaNo, rapala, DRo, offred, Crashing Vor, Fiddlegirl, p gorden lippy, letsgetreal, LarisaW, Mrs M, IreGyre, madhaus, SolarMom, Anthony Page aka SecondComing, splashy

    "A candle loses nothing by lighting another candle" - Mohammed Nabbous, R.I.P.

    by Lawrence on Mon Nov 12, 2012 at 05:18:38 PM PST

  •  I want one when I'm ready for a new car in about (17+ / 0-)

    3 years or so.  But I live in central Ohio and have an old house whose electrical panel is at the max.  How would I ever charge a  Tesla?

    That's one more thing to add to my long list of small problems. --my son, age 10

    by concernedamerican on Mon Nov 12, 2012 at 05:25:28 PM PST

    •  hopefully in 3 yrs there are charge stations, tho (12+ / 0-)
      •  See my reply below on the stations (0+ / 0-)

        Teslas can use the standard J1772 charge stations with an adapter, but they will be less powerful than the Tesla solar-powered stations.  However, you won't need to keep the car charged to full unless you are planning a road trip, so a few hours will give you more than 100 miles range.

        This is why home charging makes sense.  You charge the car when you sleep because 1. You're not using it anyway, and 2. Demand for electricity is lower.  I am on a time of use electricity plan for exactly that reason, and my Leaf starts charging at midnight.

        In capitalist America, bank robs you!

        by madhaus on Tue Nov 13, 2012 at 10:52:55 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

    •  Solar? (15+ / 0-)

      Would save a lot of gas money down the road ;)

      "Let each unique song be sung and the spell of differentiation be broken" - Winter Rabbit

      by cotterperson on Mon Nov 12, 2012 at 05:29:50 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Tesla Model S and SolarCity (20+ / 0-)

        Test drove a Tesla Model S a couple months ago.  Incredible experience.  I also asked if they had an option for solar panels on the car, but they do not.  They do however, have a plan to establish a network of solar charging stations built by Solar City (a company also founded by CEO Elon Musk), to enable driving coast-to-coast.  Musk indicated the possibility of free charging for Model S owners for life.

        http://www.businessweek.com/...

        The high-end luxury market is a good place for Tesla to initially target.  Eventually electric vehicles will be the norm and in all price ranges.  Battery technology is already a huge target for innovation.  Consider how much money, effort, and danger we currently endure just to transport toxic, explosive fuel to where we need it, and how that would change with an electric delivery system, especially one that contributes back into the grid via solar.

        •  Yes and yes! Tesla's strategy: (9+ / 0-)

          1)  Start with a small factory that can only produce a limited number of vehicles.  Make those hand-built, high-end supercars that totally blow away the paradigm of what electric vehicles are.  Thus the Roadster, 200 mile range and 200 mph top speed.  

          Even at a six-figure price, it was a total success at what it intended to do.  The old stereotype of "golf carts" disappeared in the rear view mirror, and today we identify "electric" with "zoom!"

          2)  Get a larger factory that can do line production on a larger scale.  Increase volume and decrease price, while increasing one of the major technical parameters of the vehicle.  Go for the middle-high-end of the market to prove it can succeed with that segment.

          The result of this step is Model S, with a mid-to-upper 5 figure price tag, viable as a family sedan, with increased range to 300 miles but a lower top speed.  This is the one that will bring forth a decent number of competitors, at least one from one of the Big Three and one from Toyota, and possibly more.  

          3)  Then as the competition is coming down in price, bring out another model in a price range that is affordable to the middle class: somewhere $25K - $35K.  

          This will have to be a bit more conservatively designed, with less-ferocious acceleration and top speed, to get comparable range from a smaller battery pack.   None the less it will perform as well as a high quality gas powered car in the same approximate price range.

          This will also stir up competition.  Eventually Tesla may decide to stay in the niche of "high quality vehicles at a slightly higher price in each price range," or they may decide to get huge and reduce prices to a range that's accessible to everyone.  

          But the latter is where the Big Three and Toyota excel, so it's likely they'll cover that territory amply well.  

          ---

          At that point we can expect electric cars with 200 mile range at normal freeway speeds, at working class affordable prices.  That'll be the completion of the paradigm shift.  

          People will begin to wonder why they should buy gas-powered cars when electrics are so much more mechanically simple and require so much less maintenance.

          Now consider hub motors in every wheel, interchangeable battery packs, standardized control modules, and so on: the potential for DIY and customization will be that much larger than it is today.  

          There will come a point where the only real need for petroleum fuels will be in long-distance trailer trucks, mobile heavy equipment such as road-building and road-maintenance equipment, and in long-distance aircraft.  

          We got the future back.

          by G2geek on Tue Nov 13, 2012 at 01:35:49 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

        •  Free charging only for 85 kW Teslas (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Lawrence

          The Model S comes with 3 battery pack options, and the biggest, most expensive, and longest range one is the 85 kW option. Only that one includes the supercharger that does battery charging in parallel.  The 65 kW option has the supercharger as an upgrade option.  Not clear if the stations are free to the mid-range one, but I believe the upgrade is a couple thousand.

          The network Tesla is building will only work with supercharger equipped models.  So, only free charging for life if you go big.

          Believe me, I want one (I already own a Leaf), but let's stay factual about what is and isn't included.

          In capitalist America, bank robs you!

          by madhaus on Tue Nov 13, 2012 at 10:41:14 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Free charging to 85Kwh AND 60Kwh with option (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Lawrence

            The superchargers have hardware/software options and are enabled for all 85Kwh cars plus 60Kwh ones with the supercharger option.

            The option is some extra $$ going forward, but the folks that already had agreements before the announcement get the option for 1/2 price, iirc.  

    •  You would probably have to upgrade (22+ / 0-)

      Your electrical service to charge up a Tesla.  I think the high end ones (largest battery packs) even have 2 240-Volt charging circuits so that you can recharge it overnight.

      The Volt is more practical.  It will recharge overnight and if you only drive 35 miles per day, you won't use gas.

      Anyway, I would love to have a Tesla (unlikely I ever will though).

      Republicans: Taking the country back ... to the 19th century

      by yet another liberal on Mon Nov 12, 2012 at 05:37:02 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  If you can afford the Tesla, then you truly might (9+ / 0-)

      want to consider installing a solar/charging system on your garage, as cotterperson suggested above.

      That currently probably is the best way to flip the finger at Big Oil.

      Otherwise you'll probably have to upgrade your electrical system.

      BTW, you might want to make a reservation one year in advance... these cars are selling like hot cakes.

      "A candle loses nothing by lighting another candle" - Mohammed Nabbous, R.I.P.

      by Lawrence on Mon Nov 12, 2012 at 06:02:24 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  "flip the finger at Big Oil." (13+ / 0-)

        Damn straight! When I got a little solar, I whooped and did a happy dance, too.

        I'm 64 and very tired of getting screwed over by big energy. ALL of them!

        "Let each unique song be sung and the spell of differentiation be broken" - Winter Rabbit

        by cotterperson on Mon Nov 12, 2012 at 06:07:37 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  Wintertime. Cabin heater. (4+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Lawrence, chicagoblueohio, Lujane, G2geek

        Running the heat - how does this affect the range if I live in a place like Canada?

        You may not be able to change the world, but at least you can embarrass the guilty.
        - Jessica Mitford

        by Swampfoot on Mon Nov 12, 2012 at 06:26:11 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  My price range for a car maxes out in the 30000 (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Lawrence

        or so range.  So I'll have to wait a few years until a Tesla comes along that I can afford.  But it's sweeeeeeet.  

        That's one more thing to add to my long list of small problems. --my son, age 10

        by concernedamerican on Tue Nov 13, 2012 at 04:01:33 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  There is a car for you (0+ / 0-)

          I just bought a Ford C-Max. This is the first year they make them. It is awesome. Once you learn how to drive it, yet without being obsessive about hypermiling, it gets an easy 43-44 mpg, and with a little more effort can get the manufacturer claimed 47 mpg. It seats 5 people comfortably, with plenty of leg room in the back seat, and if you fold the back seats down you can haul mid-sized furniture. I just bought a dresser off craigstlist, 60"x 40" x 24" - fit easily with room to spare for the lamps I bought as well.

          Unlike the prius and other hybrids, this thing has some vroom too. Has 188hp, so you can get nice peak performance out of it. In comparison, standard Prius has half as much horsepower, and the Prius V gets around 135hp (and at a huge cost to mileage, as the Prius V has a manufacturer claim mpg of 40).

          I got mine for $25.25k tax included. Didn't get a fancy model, but even my relatively basic model came with heated seats, sync, power liftgate, and a handful of other bells and whistles. For an extra $800 I could have had the touch screen deal, but I don't think it's worth the cost. Rather buy a new ipad.

          And it's American union made!!!

          One other interesting point: In January Ford will begin selling plug-in models of the C-Max with 20 mile all electric range before switching to hybrid mode. If I didn't have such a long commute I might have waited. But with those costing around $30k it didn't seem worth it to me, but for someone with a short commute or who just drives around town for the most part it's going to be a helluva buy.

          Run for office. It's fun!

          by Alfonso Nevarez on Tue Nov 13, 2012 at 06:31:10 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

      •  Wait wait wait (0+ / 0-)

        I have solar.  Still needed to upgrade the panel.  The charging equipment we installed for the Leaf needed 40 amps, so 2 20s maybe?  It took up 2 slots.

        The issue with solar here is that it goes through the panel, it is not independent of it, because I sell power to the utility during the day.  Also, if you put in solar and don't connect it to our panel, how are you going to charge your vehicle when the sun isn't shining?  Unless you want to install a crapton of lead acid batteries for storage.

        In capitalist America, bank robs you!

        by madhaus on Tue Nov 13, 2012 at 11:03:48 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

    •  No prob: My Chevy Volt charges at 120v (14+ / 0-)

      on a standard plug overnight.  It can be programmed to charge late at night when you probably aren't drawing current from anywhere else.  It's a great machine.  Love it.  

      "There is more stupidity than hydrogen in the universe, and it has a longer shelf life." Frank Zappa

      by zootfloggin on Mon Nov 12, 2012 at 06:38:25 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  You'll probably be able to get a cheaper... (14+ / 0-)

      ... Tesla then.  Tesla's plan is to use the knowledge gained from each model to drive down the costs for the next model.  These comments are based on what I heard from a speech by Tesla's CTO.

      The Roadster was hand-made and producted in limited quantities, so very expensive  --  starting price US$107K.  It competed well with Ferraris and high-end Porsches.  The Roadster proved that the designs for the battery pack and drive train are sound.

      The Sedan is the first mass-produced Tesla, and is the first Tesla to use a body designed specifically for electric power.  For example, most of the batteries are under the floor to save room in the trunk and improve handling with a low center of gravity.  Mass production gets its starting price under US$59K before subsidies so it can compete with BMW and Mercedes.

      Tesla also makes drive trains it sells to other companies like Toyota.

      The experience and infrastructure gained from the Sedan will further improve the cost of the batteries and drive train, so the third generation can get down to something the general public can afford.

      Tesla is very smart about starting small and building capabilities and quantities gradually so they're not overwhelmed.

      Better to hide your tax returns and be thought a crook than to release them and remove all doubt. [Adapted from Abraham Lincoln]

      by Caelian on Mon Nov 12, 2012 at 07:12:12 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  overnight while you are asleep n/t (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      chicagoblueohio, Lujane

      Donate to Occupy Wall Street here: http://nycga.cc/donate/

      by BlueDragon on Mon Nov 12, 2012 at 08:37:49 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  An electrical upgrade is way cheaper than the car (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Lujane, concernedamerican

      It's also a benefit when you sell the house. It may even improve safety.

    •  If you can afford a $50k car you sure can afford (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Lujane, G2geek, concernedamerican, DRo

      to have an electrician install a sub-panel to feed a charger.

      Warren is neither a Clintonesque triangulator nor an Obamaesque conciliator. She is a throwback to a more combative progressive tradition, and her candidacy is a test of whether that approach can still appeal to voters.-J. Toobin "New Yorker"

      by chuck utzman on Mon Nov 12, 2012 at 08:41:13 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  You will need to buy a charging station (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Lujane, G2geek, ichibon, Lawrence

      If Im not mistaken you can still charge an electric car through a regular socket on a wall. However, it might take up to 12 hours to fully recharge your car. You can also purchase a charging station that will need to be installed by an electrician. This is the 220 charging station that you can purchase for around $1000 or so.

      Keep in mind the infrastructure for these cars are not set yet. In Hawaii where I live there are charging stations in most parking lots and in the shopping centers. Parking and charging is free. Another advantage here is that during rush hour we can use electric cars in zip lanes without having to carpool. Some of the parking is also free downtown. Thus an electric car comes with many advantages.

      The only thing to worry about is charging. If you live in an apartment building there might not be places to charge. Also, you have to worry about your commute distance, etc.

      •  this is where the plug-in hybrids will excel. (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        ichibon, concernedamerican

        Situations where there are limited charging opportunities.  So you drive to work, plug in at work, and that takes care of not having a charging outlet in an apartment parking area.  But if you can't get a sufficient charge, it goes into hybrid gasoline mode.  

        The Chevy Volt and similar will be with us for another 50 years or so, until we've rebuilt the housing infrastructure such that home charging stations are universal.  

        We got the future back.

        by G2geek on Tue Nov 13, 2012 at 01:43:59 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  No special charging station required, normal plugs (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Lawrence

        As I said above (just got account going, so catching up on thread)... Currently charging our Model S on 120v normal circuit.  It is enough juice for 30-50 miles a day, so that does just fine for my wife's commute.  

        Installed a 240v outside connection at my parent's place too.  Since it is 210 freeway miles away, seemed like a good idea for weekend trips.  Recovers the charge(200 miles+) in about 9 hours on a NEMA 14-50.  We used it last weekend.

        Cost of the 240v installed: $198.

        A NEMA 14-50 is also known as a welding plug or RV plug.  Pretty common, and the car came with the adapter.  Nothing special needed.

    •  I had to upgrade our panel to install 220V charger (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Lawrence

      For our Leaf.  Our 100 amp panel was full (house built in 1955).  Cost several thousand but we needed the upgrade anyway.

      Tesla also charges on 110 or 220.  Given their big batteries I wouldn't charge one on 110.  It takes 18-24 hours to recharge a 24kW Leaf.  Tesla S comes in 85, 65 and I think 45 so even with its much more powerful internal charger, it will take some time.  Leaf is 3.3 kWh, Tesla is closer to 10 kWh charger.  The supercharger puts in a parallel second charger in the vehicle, included on 85 kW, as option on 65 kW.

      Nobody has taken delivery of anything but 85 kW yet.

      Note that the stations will be far from each other so no guarantee there will be one anywhere near you.  They are designed for travel, not for home fill ups.  They are about 60-100 miles from each other in California.

      In capitalist America, bank robs you!

      by madhaus on Tue Nov 13, 2012 at 10:49:13 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  It just takes an extension cord (0+ / 0-)

      Plugged into a regular socket. It can do a trickle charge.

      Women create the entire labor force. Sympathy is the strongest instinct in human nature. - Charles Darwin

      by splashy on Tue Nov 13, 2012 at 12:50:34 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Actually... no, extension cords are no good (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Lawrence

        Tried with an extension cord.  The car detected the weaker current and downgraded the amperage draw quite a bit.  

        The included cord is 18ft though.  Plenty long enough for most uses.  

        It charges painfully slow on anything less than 10Amps.  A 120v plug provides 12A, so the car gets about 3 miles of charge per hour it is plugged in.  Not great, but good enough for a 30 mile commute.  

  •  Needs the price reduced or purchase loans (12+ / 0-)

    by consumers backed by the feds, especially since the company received lots of gov't help.
    But the car is nice. If only we could afford it, lol

    •  Tesla's strategy is to build its early models in (22+ / 0-)

      the luxury segment, where car buyers can afford the still more expensive technology.  This, in turn, allows them to advance the tech and lower the costs, at which point they can build less expensive models.  The Model S is meant to compete with the expensive BMW, Mercedes, Porsche, Lexus, Infinity, and Cadillac models.

      It's a smart strategy that seems to be working well and I think they're planning to have a 35 to 40k all electric model out within the next 3 years.

      "A candle loses nothing by lighting another candle" - Mohammed Nabbous, R.I.P.

      by Lawrence on Mon Nov 12, 2012 at 05:53:16 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  I'd Rather Save Subsidies for Consumer Solar (8+ / 0-)

      generation at this time. That improves more problems simultaneously than tweaking the luxury pricing of an upscale electric car.

      We are called to speak for the weak, for the voiceless, for victims of our nation and for those it calls enemy.... --ML King "Beyond Vietnam"

      by Gooserock on Mon Nov 12, 2012 at 06:22:51 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  While I'm not wild about direct purchase (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Lujane, Cassandra77

        subsidies for anything, I'm especially not wild about subsidies to help rich folks buy a favored toy.

        Last I looked, it was not-so-rich folks who need the most help, and not-so-rich people who can make the biggest dent in the problem by sheer force of numbers.

        LG: You know what? You got spunk. MR: Well, Yes... LG: I hate spunk!

        by dinotrac on Mon Nov 12, 2012 at 08:20:24 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Think ahead a little. (7+ / 0-)

          It's true that the subsidies aren't helping the average consumer right now, but if we had started subsidizing luxury EVs twenty years ago, we'd all be in electric cars by now.

          •  If we had started subsidizing luxury EVs twenty (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Cassandra77

            years ago, a number or rich people would have bought toys at my expense and the vast majority of us would still be driving ICE cars.  

            LG: You know what? You got spunk. MR: Well, Yes... LG: I hate spunk!

            by dinotrac on Mon Nov 12, 2012 at 11:20:38 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  I should add -- why do people who want to tax (0+ / 0-)

              the rich also want to give them presents like this?

              Just plain silly.

              LG: You know what? You got spunk. MR: Well, Yes... LG: I hate spunk!

              by dinotrac on Mon Nov 12, 2012 at 11:21:26 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  because this is how we improve the tech. (3+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                netop, Lawrence, madhaus

                Tesla was able to start with a small factory and succeed, by hand-building supercars.  

                Then they scaled up to limited mass production of luxury sedans.  

                Next step is to scale up further and produce middle range family cars.  

                By that time competition will have kicked in, and Ford, Chevy, et. al. will be producing solid but inexpensive ones for everyone.  

                The only other way to do this, would have required enormous capital to start out, on a scale that could not have been attempted without losing control of the whole thing at an early stage, and watching all of its new technology get sold off and sunk.  

                We got the future back.

                by G2geek on Tue Nov 13, 2012 at 01:49:29 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  You are ignoring the history of tech in order to (0+ / 0-)

                  shower gifts on rich people.

                  The history of tech is that early adapters are willing to pay the price for cool new technology.  It was true with cars, with televisions, with phones, with all manner of things.

                  Making a $100,000 Tesla cost $90,000 isn't going to make a difference to very many people at all.

                  Now -- if you make a $100,000 Tesla cost $50,000, you would get more buyers (though still a relatively small number because, for most of us, $50,000 is still a ton of money), but then you have to ask why in the hell you're paying people $50,000 to buy a car.

                  LG: You know what? You got spunk. MR: Well, Yes... LG: I hate spunk!

                  by dinotrac on Tue Nov 13, 2012 at 06:06:33 AM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  You are losing sight of the other reason for EV (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    Lawrence

                    subsidies: cleaner air.  The subsidy isn't just for Teslas.  It's for all EVs, and reduces the Leaf from $38K before tax to $31.5.  Then many states have additional incentives.  California gives a $2500 rebate and use of HOV lane stickers.  Washington has no sales tax on EVs.  PZEVs like the Volt qualify for smaller tax credits and incentives, too.

                    Did you also complain about the absolutely obscene $125K business deduction for Hummers?  It was reduced but is still in effect, you now get I think $28k in depreciation first year.  That's more than 3 times as much money for rich people to drive a fracking gas-guzzler.

                    Priorities, man!  Why whine about toys for rich people when it advances the tech, cleans the air, and moves us away from burning dinosaur guts?

                    In capitalist America, bank robs you!

                    by madhaus on Tue Nov 13, 2012 at 11:13:40 AM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Re hummers: Yup and Nope. (0+ / 0-)

                      I don't understand SUVs for 90% of the people who buy them, but there is no "Hummer" business deduction.  Businesses have expenses and they are allowed to depreciate assets. By the same token, a business buying a Tesla can get that very same deduction.

                      Priorities is right.

                      The whine is not about toys for rich people.  Rich people can buy all the toys they want.  But your argument is exactly the same as saying rich people shouldn't be taxed because they are job creators, and no more accurate.

                      If the government is going to spend money, it should go where it matters and where it will do some real good.  

                      LG: You know what? You got spunk. MR: Well, Yes... LG: I hate spunk!

                      by dinotrac on Tue Nov 13, 2012 at 01:00:29 PM PST

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  Wrong. Wrong. Wrong. (0+ / 0-)

                        There is definitely a deduction for heavy trucks (over 6000 or 6500 lbs) such as the Hummer.  You cannot get that deduction for an EV.  Google Hummer deduction if you don't believe me.  And it was $125,000. Absolutely obscene.  I believe it is a Section 159 but that's off the top of my head and I can't check it myself, too many tabs open already on my tablet.  But I've posted on this many times on EV forums so I am positive about the rule, just not the section number or the exact amount of the deduction now (somewhere between $25 to $31k now).

                        Try writing off the full cost of a Model S for your business in one year and watch your accountant laugh as you.

                        I also note you ignored everything about the advantages in promoting green tech: cleaner air and eventually making it affordable for everyone.  

                        In capitalist America, bank robs you!

                        by madhaus on Fri Nov 16, 2012 at 10:56:27 AM PST

                        [ Parent ]

      •  both/and. (0+ / 0-)

        Each produces more demand for the other.

        We got the future back.

        by G2geek on Tue Nov 13, 2012 at 01:45:41 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

  •  300 miles on a charge??!!! (11+ / 0-)

    And it's a great looking car too!

    "We the People of the United States...." -U.S. Constitution

    by elwior on Mon Nov 12, 2012 at 05:30:22 PM PST

    •  That's probably a pipe dream, especially in real (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Lujane, G2geek

      world driving, but the EPA rates it at 265 miles (well, the version with the optional 85KWh battery pack), and that's enough for most driving needs.  You might not want to take it on a trip, but most everything else? Not bad -- at least in warm (but not too warm) climates.

      LG: You know what? You got spunk. MR: Well, Yes... LG: I hate spunk!

      by dinotrac on Mon Nov 12, 2012 at 08:25:30 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  It is a sweet EV,but I will stick with my '12 Volt (26+ / 0-)

    I would love to own one, but it is way out of my price range.

    I have to admit it is a thing of beauty.   I had a nice view of the Model S at Plugin America Day in DC.

    However, I am on track to drive 20,000 EV miles this year in my Volt while using around 4 gallons total.   A majority of which was just getting home from the dealership.

    Now we just need more public charging stations.   I go a little overboard trying to avoid using gas though.   I charged for an 1.5 hours after seeing Obama last week near Manasas.   It's a shame there was no place to plugin at the arena as my car was just sitting there for hours.

  •  Love our Leaf! (20+ / 0-)

    Which, we feely admit, was an emotional decision to buy, based on our beliefs, rather than an entirely sensible financial choice.  Also, we have solar panels so we got to more or less charge it with our own electricity, which feels pretty cool.

    "Wouldn't you rather vote for what you want and not get it than vote for what you don't want - and get it?" Eugene Debs. "Le courage, c'est de chercher la verite et de la dire" Jean Jaures

    by Chico David RN on Mon Nov 12, 2012 at 05:32:18 PM PST

    •  How many miles do you drive? (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Lujane, G2geek

      It's hard for me to imagine most people being able to get by with the power from their own solar panels.

      LG: You know what? You got spunk. MR: Well, Yes... LG: I hate spunk!

      by dinotrac on Mon Nov 12, 2012 at 08:26:47 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Your lack of imagination can be cured by doing (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Lawrence

        A little research on solar capabilities instead of shooting down environmental responsibility.

        I have a 3.66 kW solar charging array of 17 panels.  The Leaf has a 3.3 kWh internal charger.  Do the math.  But then again, it makes more sense to sell the power to the utility at high demand rates (24-32 cents per kWh) and charge the Leaf at midnight when electricity is a whopping 9.5 cents a kWh instead.  When our utility introduces a renewable energy option (it's coming soon) I'll sign up for that as well and I'll know I am burning zero coal and zero oil.  Right now our utility only uses 2% coal anyway.

        I'm in Silicon Valley, which is where Tesla has their HQ and their factory, and it is EV central here.  Leafs everywhere.

        In capitalist America, bank robs you!

        by madhaus on Tue Nov 13, 2012 at 11:21:56 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  We don't drive that much, but.. (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Lawrence

        we produce a great deal more power than we need for the car.  Both the car and the panels are new to us this past summer, and we have to go through a full year before we see how it works out - what the commentor above describes is actually what we do - take advantage of time of use metering, sell high cost power to the utility during the day, buy low cost power to charge the car during the night.  So far we are net ahead - they owe us money.  But during the winter we will likely fall behind.  Will have to go through a full season before we see how it averages out.  That's the way the utility works it anyway: we get credits in the months we are ahead, debits in the months we are behind, settle up once a year - if we produce more total than we use, they pay us.  And that being ahead also includes all our domestic use, of course.

        "Wouldn't you rather vote for what you want and not get it than vote for what you don't want - and get it?" Eugene Debs. "Le courage, c'est de chercher la verite et de la dire" Jean Jaures

        by Chico David RN on Tue Nov 13, 2012 at 06:29:19 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

  •  Cool car. $50K is a bit out of my car budget. (12+ / 0-)

    Who cares what banks may fail in Yonkers. Long as you've got a kiss that conquers.

    by rasbobbo on Mon Nov 12, 2012 at 05:33:33 PM PST

    •  More like a $100k if you're talking about the (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Lujane, G2geek, rasbobbo

      long-range model.

      The Tesla models are not based on trim levels so much as range.  The higher the model, the more battery power you get.

      The base model -- which starts at close to $60k, comes with about 160 miles (but really more like 135) worth of batteries.

      That, to me, seems problematic for a car like this.

      If the Leaf could get 135 miles on a charge, I think it would be spectacular, because the Leaf would be an incredible putter around town, go to work car.

      At the Tesla's price point, however, that seems pretty darned light.

      LG: You know what? You got spunk. MR: Well, Yes... LG: I hate spunk!

      by dinotrac on Mon Nov 12, 2012 at 08:29:43 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  How often do you drive 135 miles a day? Seriously? (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Lawrence

        Most people drive less than 35 miles a day.  If you routinely drive beyond the Leaf's range of 73, it's not the car for you.  If you routinely drive more than 135 a day, you can get a longer range Tesla.

        Thing about either vehicle is, most people live in a household with more than one vehicle.  If you occasionally drive over the expected range and there is no dependable charging options... Bear with me because this is really complicated.... You can use your OTHER VEHICLE.

        I'm in a Leaf owner's club.  Most of us found we ended up driving our Leafs way more often than we thought we would.  The best description of it is "It's the perfect second car that ends up being your first car."

        In capitalist America, bank robs you!

        by madhaus on Tue Nov 13, 2012 at 11:26:28 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

  •  Motor Trend Car of Year -- - - - - - (0+ / 0-)

    is the kiss of death for any car that gets it.  Too bad.

    "We borrow this Earth from our Grandchildren."

    by Arizona Mike on Mon Nov 12, 2012 at 05:33:54 PM PST

  •  There are 3 battery size options (10+ / 0-)

    The last time I looked.

    The cheapest model was about $50K and had a range of 160 miles.

    Then they had a 240 miles (or so) for $60K and the 300 mile model for $70K.

    I don't remember it costing $90K like the video said though.

    Wish I could buy that car in any case.

    Republicans: Taking the country back ... to the 19th century

    by yet another liberal on Mon Nov 12, 2012 at 05:39:30 PM PST

  •  One day maybe (9+ / 0-)

    I've been following Tesla since before they had built their first car. Maybe one day I'll be able to afford one.

    •  me too, on both counts. (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Lawrence

      In a few years they'll be down to about $35K range, and after that maybe a working person's model.  But by that time the big automakers will be fully in the game, so prices will come down one way or another.

      We got the future back.

      by G2geek on Tue Nov 13, 2012 at 01:52:58 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  YEAH BABY (7+ / 0-)

    Elon strikes again!  I SO want one of these.

    -9.00, -5.85
    Quite an experience to live in fear, isn't it? That's what it is to be a slave.

    by Wintermute on Mon Nov 12, 2012 at 05:44:45 PM PST

  •  The only thing that bothers me about E vehicles (7+ / 0-)

    in terms of absence of sound is the effect it will have on wildlife warning. For those of you that don't have to deer-dodge or dodge other wildlife, I feel better having a vehiclege otheioiog

    202-224-3121 to Congress in D.C. USE it! You can tell how big a person is by what it takes to discourage them. "We're not perfect, but they're nuts."--Barney Frank 01/02/2012

    by cany on Mon Nov 12, 2012 at 05:51:49 PM PST

  •  What was that (9+ / 0-)

    about Romney blasting Obama for his investments in Tesla?

    Republicans are far more socialist than Democrats. Just because they want to redistribute the wealth upwards does not make it any better.

    by MrAnon on Mon Nov 12, 2012 at 05:59:10 PM PST

  •  You beat me to the punch on this story. (11+ / 0-)

    I just saw the news about it a few minutes ago.  Just a few things to say:

    1.  Elon Musk is a god.

    2.  Can't wait for the yet-to-be-unveiled low-price Tesla model for the mass market.

    3.  The sooner Tesla takes over the automotive industry, the sooner Elon can refocus the other 50% of his energy on SpaceX and/or his other awesome projects like the 30-minute LA-to-SF tube transit "hyperloop" project or his 21st-century supersonic passenger jet concept.

    4.  Did I mention Elon Musk is a god?

    "They fear this man. They know he will see farther than they, and he will bind them with ancient logics." -The stoner guy in The Cabin in the Woods

    by Troubadour on Mon Nov 12, 2012 at 05:59:49 PM PST

    •  Elon Musk is awesome. (11+ / 0-)

      We need a hell of a lot more billionaires like Elon Musk and a hell of a lot less billionaires like the Koch Brothers.

      "A candle loses nothing by lighting another candle" - Mohammed Nabbous, R.I.P.

      by Lawrence on Mon Nov 12, 2012 at 06:07:14 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  I hope some day he founds a university (8+ / 0-)

        to teach people how to approach science, technology, and business the way he does.  

        He was once asked in an interview what he thinks he does differently from others, and his answer was profound and yet makes perfect sense: Basically, he says that the way to approach innovation is by thinking in terms of first principles rather than by analogy.  I.e., don't just accept the status quo as a given and then try to build on it - look straight to the root of the problem or possibility and build from the basics, even if you have to start humbly and evolve upward.

        That's also been why he pursues a philosophy of vertical integration in both Tesla and SpaceX.  The extreme outsourcing and subcontracting that has come from corporate penny-pinching has created environments that are hostile to innovation.  Only by having as much as practical under one roof can you get the rapid feedback you need to try out new ideas quickly and efficiently.

        If I weren't such a lazy intellectual dilettante, I could totally see myself being inspired by his example to start a business or something.

        "They fear this man. They know he will see farther than they, and he will bind them with ancient logics." -The stoner guy in The Cabin in the Woods

        by Troubadour on Mon Nov 12, 2012 at 06:33:25 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Could your arm be twisted? (5+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Troubadour, Lawrence, debedb, G2geek, Mrs M

          Interesting that you say this:

          If I weren't such a lazy intellectual dilettante, I could totally see myself being inspired by his example to start a business or something.
          I have been writing various individuals here and contacting my peers about doing something along those lines. I am eager to exercise my engineering and creative skills toward some positive end. But I think to be fruitful, one needs to find others to partner with that have complementary skills and interests.

          Would you at least be willing to help someone brainstorm? Could you recommend entrepreneurial individuals or related forums with which to engage in this way?

          The man who moves a mountain begins by moving away small stones. -Confucius

          by Malachite on Mon Nov 12, 2012 at 08:39:24 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  I'm always happy to brainstorm. (4+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Lawrence, Malachite, G2geek, Mrs M

            It's what lazy intellectual dilettantes are best at.  

            First off, you'll want to frequent highly active engineering, tech startup, and "maker" forums, and any that are in the specific domain you'd be looking into.

            Once you've got some idea of where you want to go and maybe gotten some people on board with it, you can design an early project that you can fund through Kickstarter.

            Just out of curiosity, what are you thinking about pursuing?

            "They fear this man. They know he will see farther than they, and he will bind them with ancient logics." -The stoner guy in The Cabin in the Woods

            by Troubadour on Mon Nov 12, 2012 at 08:47:38 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  I'm casting a wide net at the moment, but I could (3+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Troubadour, G2geek, Mrs M

              later tell you what I have done in the past. First I want to ask where one would locate these tech startup and "maker" forums. Not quite sure what a "maker" forum is, although it sounds like a brainstorming kind of place. Do you have any particular suggestions for such a place? I have seen kickstarter, but as you suggest, it is for funding once an idea is baked or baking.

              I'd be interested in developing software/hardware tools for political campaigning. I tried to get involved with OFA but was only ever offered the paths of donating funds, canvassing, or phone-banking. I of course have done all of those things, but my creative skills are yearning to be utilized. Perhaps politics doesn't have problems that require software and engineering skills.

              More broadly speaking, I would like to work in any area where a solution involves engineering, software, hardware, robotics, mathematics, etc. The hurdle I find is not so much in the solution domain, but in identifying appropriate issues/needs in a variety of problem domains. What are the problems and the challenges? What is begging to be solved? Once I see these things, I'll know what appeals to me. It depends on the scope of the problem and such.

              I don't mind starting off small to demonstrate skill and success, then leveraging for larger projects. Musk did just that with PayPal. PayPal as a solution is of course technologically simple. But he had to know that the tool was needed. That's the problem domain. I realize that you know all of this, but I'm just explaining myself.

              The man who moves a mountain begins by moving away small stones. -Confucius

              by Malachite on Mon Nov 12, 2012 at 09:28:15 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  I don't specifically know where to look (3+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Malachite, G2geek, Mrs M

                for these forums.  I'd suggest just searching and talking to people on whatever relevant forums you find and zeroing in on the right places.  

                "Maker" is DIY stuff - a lot of 3D printing, rapid prototyping, that sort of thing.  You'll want to use open source hardware and software - Arduino boards, that sort of thing.  Beyond that, I don't have any experience with practical engineering more complicated than arranging undergraduate-level physics experiments - and that was several years ago - so I can't offer much more.  

                But if you're talking about software, you'd probably want to be in the mobile app domain - apps for voters, for volunteers, for donors, for providing services that help people get to the polls, etc.  

                You can approach it in two ways:

                1.  The hard way, but with the bigger and more revolutionary potential, is to decide what you want to do and then just figure out a path to it, no matter how hard it turns out to be.  This is what Elon Musk did - he decided he was going to make electric cars and send humans to Mars, and he's been steadily advancing on both objectives ever since.

                or

                2.  Look at the field of existing capabilities and find creative ways to combine them to realize new possibilities.  

                Either way you'll want to have some business chops to know how to keep moving.  Tech guys who start businesses often crash and burn before they get anywhere because they don't know how to keep the cash flowing.  It's really hard and a lot of work that has nothing to do with advancing technology and everything to do with money, and that's why I've never tried to be a businessman.  Those techs who do survive in business often do so at the expense of their ideas, turning instead into sellers of cheap crap that doesn't really advance anything.  Google, Apple, Tesla, and SpaceX are rare exceptions.    

                I've run through some offhand simulations of what it might be like to run a high-tech startup, and basically the feeling seems to be that you're trying to write a novel while sprinting for your life from a pack of hungry wolves (the end of your cash flow).  Software and web stuff are better at handling that because they have low overall costs, but if you're into hardware domains, the fixed costs can be a problem.

                "They fear this man. They know he will see farther than they, and he will bind them with ancient logics." -The stoner guy in The Cabin in the Woods

                by Troubadour on Mon Nov 12, 2012 at 10:07:03 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

        •  hell yeah to that! Elon Musk University! (4+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Lawrence, Mrs M, Troubadour, madhaus

          Science, technology, and business.  But it should also deal with the humanities and social sciences, for the sake of giving people well-rounded educations.  That sounds like a cliche, but it's essential for people to have a wide grasp of knowledge and ways of thinking.  

          "Starting from scratch" is exactly right.  That applies to a lot of other things as well, including housing, programming, etc. etc.  Start from a goal, work backward to the core issues, and then work forward with the concrete plan.  

          Vertical integration: just say Bell Telephone System.  The world's best communications system until we destroyed it.  And all of today's gee-whiz gadgets such as tiny portable phones and computers, were foreseen by Bell Labs (and some were built in prototype) in the early 1960s.  Now if only we'd kept ISDN... sigh...

          You are not a lazy intellectual dilettante.  For one thing you're a generalist or synthesist, and it's pretty clear you're in the 4th standard deviation above the mean in terms of general intelligence.  Those are major strengths, even though it's difficult to find a place in today's economy to plug in (surely you recognize this: "I'll be damned if I have to work for an idiot!").  

          If you were in the Bay Area, I have a project I'd probably want you onboard for, though it's going to be another year or so before it gets going.  How'd you like to help reinvent a bunch of the user side of the internet....?

          We got the future back.

          by G2geek on Tue Nov 13, 2012 at 02:23:28 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  I'd always be up for involvement in a visionary (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Lawrence, G2geek

            project, but I'm in SoCal and I don't really have any computer or web skills beyond search, some basic HTML tags, etc. - consumer-level stuff.  As you say, I'm a generalist / synthesist.  But I'd be happy to offer my perspective on anything.  

            "They fear this man. They know he will see farther than they, and he will bind them with ancient logics." -The stoner guy in The Cabin in the Woods

            by Troubadour on Tue Nov 13, 2012 at 09:15:04 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  We're there, and we're on. (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Lawrence

              There's also a little nest of geniuses up here who you may find it interesting to get to know at some point.

              Don't worry about tech skills; we have a decent amount of engineering talent and business talent.  Visionary talent is rare and important.  And someone who's not a tech whiz but has visionary ideas about the internet, is exactly right for helping reinvent it.  

              I'll write to you via DK Mail momentarily and send you one of my email addresses and phone numbers.  Fortunately we're in the same time zone;-)

              We got the future back.

              by G2geek on Wed Nov 14, 2012 at 12:44:06 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

      •  yes and yes to that too! (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Lawrence, Troubadour

        All of which also goes to prove that we lefties have no problem with people getting fabulously wealthy from working hard, working smart, and building stuff that has real value to the world.  What we resent are gamblers who stick the taxpayers with their gambling debts and bar bills.  

        We got the future back.

        by G2geek on Tue Nov 13, 2012 at 02:13:04 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  You can say that again! (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Troubadour, Lawrence
        We need a hell of a lot more billionaires like Elon Musk and a hell of a lot less billionaires like the Koch Brothers.

        Renewable energy brings national global security.     

        by Calamity Jean on Tue Nov 13, 2012 at 08:49:46 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

    •  i never heard of his plans for... (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Lawrence, Troubadour

      ... the "hyperloop" or the new SST.

      The need for highspeed rail and similar is self-explanatory, and we have to catch up with China and the rest of the world in that department.

      But yes I also think the world needs viable supersonic aircraft.  Not for the bulk of passenger traffic by any means, but certainly for emergencies and for people who really do need to get across the continent or across an ocean in a couple of hours.

      A supersonic route from the West Coast to Asia would be a major improvement over the present 14+ hour flights.  Imagine San Francisco to Hong Kong in 4 hours.  

      Now if all this can be done with reduced ecological impacts compared to the last generation of SSTs, that would be a great thing.  

      We got the future back.

      by G2geek on Tue Nov 13, 2012 at 02:11:37 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  Heh - It cost $6K less than Mitt's car elevator. (10+ / 0-)

    "Four more years!" (Obama Unencumbered - The Sequel)

    by jwinIL14 on Mon Nov 12, 2012 at 06:00:46 PM PST

  •  Is this what we call "Obamacar?" (9+ / 0-)

    /sorry, couldn't resist ;)

    "Let each unique song be sung and the spell of differentiation be broken" - Winter Rabbit

    by cotterperson on Mon Nov 12, 2012 at 06:13:44 PM PST

  •  I want one. (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Lawrence, wbr, dinotrac, G2geek

    Have wanted one since I first heard about them.  

    One day...

  •  Elon Musk IS a god! (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Lawrence, wader, G2geek, Calamity Jean

    I bought stock in Tesla (TSLA) recently. I can't afford a Model S but I can put a little money in a company I admire and hope thrives. Perhaps by the time the next model comes out I'll be able to cash in my stock to buy a car! Love their bold creativity. American made and American designed. No wonder Republicans hate it.

    "Seed corn. It's what's for dinner!" Republican philosophy of governance

    by madame damnable on Mon Nov 12, 2012 at 06:26:30 PM PST

  •  Nice, but I'm saving up for a Chevy Volt (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Lawrence, davehouck, G2geek

    More in my potential price range (if my job still exists a few years from now) and I like the idea of a backup generator on-board (i.e., it's a parallel hybrid).

    "So, please stay where you are. Don't move and don't panic. Don't take off your shoes! Jobs is on the way."

    by wader on Mon Nov 12, 2012 at 06:39:01 PM PST

    •  The Chevy Volt is a quality car. (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      wader, davehouck, G2geek, distraught

      And it'll be even better in a few years.

      It's not a parallel hybrid, though, as it is moved only by the electric motor.

      It's basically an electric vehicle with a range extender(that charges the battery when it gets low).

      "A candle loses nothing by lighting another candle" - Mohammed Nabbous, R.I.P.

      by Lawrence on Mon Nov 12, 2012 at 06:43:56 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Whoops! I'm tired (4+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Lawrence, davehouck, dinotrac, G2geek

        I meant it is a series hybrid, and have even posted about that here.

        Yeesh, that was dumb.

        "So, please stay where you are. Don't move and don't panic. Don't take off your shoes! Jobs is on the way."

        by wader on Mon Nov 12, 2012 at 06:49:39 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Actually, you were right both times (4+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          wader, Lawrence, Odysseus, G2geek

          The Chevy Volt is usually a series hybrid, but at high speeds with the gasoline engine running it switches to a parallel hybrid.  The Volt's drive train is really complex, clearly the result of a gasoline engine car company that's used to myriad hoses and wiring harnesses.  The electric motors (yes plural, though one of them is a motor-generator) are squeezed in there somewhere.

          In contrast, the Tesla drive train is very simple.  It's easy for me to see which is going to be more reliable in the long run.

          Better to hide your tax returns and be thought a crook than to release them and remove all doubt. [Adapted from Abraham Lincoln]

          by Caelian on Mon Nov 12, 2012 at 07:29:43 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

  •  so I just went on their website to see what the kw (6+ / 0-)

    usage per mile is on average, and it's .3 (300wh/mile).  can this be true?  If you charged it on your grid current and assumed that you are paying 10 cents a KWH, then you'd be paying only $9.00 for a 300 mile run.  At $4/gallon and 30 miles/gallon, you'd be paying $40 for a compact to go the same distance.

    What am I getting wrong here?  And if the answer is "nothing" then the next question is: how long before the internal combustion engine is history?

    "Well, yeah, the Constitution is worth it if you succeed." - Nancy Pelosi // Question: "succeed" at what?

    by nailbender on Mon Nov 12, 2012 at 06:53:41 PM PST

    •  The internal combustion engine already is history. (6+ / 0-)

      Now it's basically just a matter of time.  It's going to go a lot faster with Obama in charge than it would have gone with Romney in charge, that much is sure.

      Your calculation seems right.  Electric vehicles are a lot more expensive upfront but the fuel costs are lower as well as their upkeep costs.

      As the costs of solar continue to fall, solar-fueled electric cars may become the best financial deal around.

      "A candle loses nothing by lighting another candle" - Mohammed Nabbous, R.I.P.

      by Lawrence on Mon Nov 12, 2012 at 07:01:44 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  even at 10 cents a kwh (which is about the (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Lawrence, G2geek

        mainland US average) you could pay yourself back $2k a year if you drove 20k miles a year, and in 10 years or 200k miles have the total cost equivalence to a small sport IC car down to $28k.  That's a pretty good deal for car of the year.  And that's assuming gas prices stable at $4/gal.

        "Well, yeah, the Constitution is worth it if you succeed." - Nancy Pelosi // Question: "succeed" at what?

        by nailbender on Mon Nov 12, 2012 at 07:09:55 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  regarding upkeep, the '03 civic hybrid we bought (4+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        davehouck, Lawrence, G2geek, Calamity Jean

        new and which is still being run my our college attending son (with 260k miles on it) still has the original electric motor and has had to have the battery bank replaced once at 149k miles (it was free because we got in just under the warranty of 150k but would have cost about $3k back in '09).  Electric motors are very reliable and with many fewer moving parts than an IC engine.  And no explosions needed to energize them, no spark plugs, air filters, oil, or distributors to replace as regular maintenance costs, either.

        Oh, and the brakes last just about forever due to regenerative braking.

        "Well, yeah, the Constitution is worth it if you succeed." - Nancy Pelosi // Question: "succeed" at what?

        by nailbender on Mon Nov 12, 2012 at 07:19:47 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  From your keyboard to FSM's inbox. (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Lawrence
        The internal combustion engine already is history.

        Now it's basically just a matter of time.

        May the Flying Spaghetti Monster touch Elon Musk with His noodly appendage and give him long life and good health to continue his work.  

        Renewable energy brings national global security.     

        by Calamity Jean on Tue Nov 13, 2012 at 08:57:29 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

    •  IC engines still have their uses (7+ / 0-)

      As Ed Begley Jr. says in Who Killed the Electric Car? (as I recall it):

      Electric cars aren't for everybody.  They can only satisfy the driving needs for 90% of Americans.
      Rural areas with long distances between charging stations are still good candidates for IC engines.  They should be powered by biofuels, since there's plenty of land to grow the products for them.

      The oil interests have been successfully holding back EV progress for a long time.  It's nice to see EVs finally coming back after being supplanted by noisy, smelly, dirty, dangerous monsters for about 100 years.

      Better to hide your tax returns and be thought a crook than to release them and remove all doubt. [Adapted from Abraham Lincoln]

      by Caelian on Mon Nov 12, 2012 at 07:38:41 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  I imagine it varies with how you drive, but (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      nailbender, G2geek

      electric motors don't send any energy out the exhaust pipe, and don't have the assorted mechanical losses incurred when you convert reciprocal motion to rotational, then feed it through gears, etc to the wheels. And that's without sending a whole lot of energy out the tailpipe in the form of heat.

      Of course, there IS the problem of moving that heavy battery pack around.  In the long-distance car, it's about 1500 lb.

      That compares unfavorably to about  150 lb for a full 25 gallon  gas tank, and even more unfavorably to half a tank.

      That IS one drawback to battery technology: You're always carrying around that weight, even when the pack is nearly discharged.

      LG: You know what? You got spunk. MR: Well, Yes... LG: I hate spunk!

      by dinotrac on Mon Nov 12, 2012 at 08:42:59 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  yeah, but your engine is about 600lbs lighter, (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        G2geek

        if my brain is working tonight,.  And the tranny, potentially at least, can be eliminated.

        "Well, yeah, the Constitution is worth it if you succeed." - Nancy Pelosi // Question: "succeed" at what?

        by nailbender on Mon Nov 12, 2012 at 10:30:24 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Depends on the car/engine, but that is definitely (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          G2geek

          a tradeoff. Those ICEs and assorted hardware are heavy.

          I don't know if any real-world electric cars have eliminated transmissions.  Would be interesting to find out.  Electrics give max torque at low rpm, so grunt gears aren't needed, but don't know how rest of range works out.

          LG: You know what? You got spunk. MR: Well, Yes... LG: I hate spunk!

          by dinotrac on Mon Nov 12, 2012 at 11:24:08 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Rocky Mountain Institute guys have touted direct (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            G2geek, Lawrence, dinotrac

            drive EVs using a separate motor at each wheel, reverse polarity acting as the brake (for the most part, I think).  Just conceptual, as far as I know.

            "Well, yeah, the Constitution is worth it if you succeed." - Nancy Pelosi // Question: "succeed" at what?

            by nailbender on Tue Nov 13, 2012 at 12:16:45 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  I think Volvo made a concept car like that (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              nailbender

              a few years ago.

              Interesting stuff.
              I can't imagine you could get rid of real brakes --  you still need to stop when the power's out -- but still very cool.

              The small motors at the wheels are kind of interesting, but I wonder about the limitations.  Seems nice for a basic people mover, but how light can the motors be? Unsprung weight is the enemy of good handling.  Of course, 1500 lb of batteries is probably a bigger enemy.  Getting range with lighter battery loads would seem to be the biggest priority if electric cars are going to be more than around and about cars.

              Mind you -- there is nothing wrong with around and about cars.  That's most of the driving we do by far.  Heck, we tend to rent a car when we take a driving trip, so -- for us, an electric that could go a couple of hundred miles would be very attractive.

              LG: You know what? You got spunk. MR: Well, Yes... LG: I hate spunk!

              by dinotrac on Tue Nov 13, 2012 at 06:00:02 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

          •  No transmission, max torque at all times (0+ / 0-)

            Can't speak to the S on this but the Leaf has no transmission. Doesn't need one.  Electric motors are very simple mechanically.

            In capitalist America, bank robs you!

            by madhaus on Tue Nov 13, 2012 at 11:45:36 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

    •  Most EVs measure in miles per kW efficiency (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Lawrence

      So I guess the .3 is the reciprocal of what I'm used to seeing.  I get around 4.5 miles per kWh in my Leaf.  I charge at midnight (timer in the charging equipment) and pay Time of Use charges of 9 cents/kWh.  Since I have solar, I sell power to the utility at much higher rates.

      Right now you can lease a 2012 Leaf for very low rates, literally less than most people pay in monthly gasoline bills.  The electricity bills are trivial.

      In capitalist America, bank robs you!

      by madhaus on Tue Nov 13, 2012 at 11:41:41 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  The Model S is a badass car.... (4+ / 0-)

    It really is. Hopefully as the technology gets refined and more common, we'll see some more reasonably-priced models, but until then, I hope to hell the car is a raging success.

    •  I have owned the Nissan Leaf for about 15 months (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Lawrence, G2geek, SixSixSix, madhaus

      now and it's really a very nifty car and drives beautifully. You see a lot of them here on the roads in the People's Republic of Seattle.

      But gee whiz, that Tesla S is one sexy looking car and I hope that I own one of those some day. 300 miles per charge is a great piece of engineering design.

      It takes time to practice generosity, but being generous is the best use of our time. - Thich Nhat Hanh.

      by Frank In WA on Mon Nov 12, 2012 at 08:21:22 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  Well, well, what a surprise. (0+ / 0-)

    Car worship.

    It figures.

    Two billion people on this planet have never seen, never mind operated a toilet, and we all stand here to praise a car for bored billionaires who'd like to pretend that their coal fired cars are fueled by wind turbines.

    Of course, they're not.    In fact, in China, people called "scientists" have reviewed their population of 100 million electric vehicles and found that - as opposed to electric motor scooters, electric cars are dirtier, and generate more particulates than diesels.

    Environ. Sci. Technol., 2012, 46 (4), pp 2018–2024

    The authors of the paper in the primary scientific literature write as follows:

    Our findings show that replacing gasoline
    cars with e-cars will result in increased CO2 from combustion
    emissions and all-cause mortality risk from primary PM2.5
    in most cities.
     (Cf pg. 2024, conclusions section of the paper.)

    But who gives a fuck what "scientists" say?   I mean it's not like they matter like say, marketing teams.

    It doesn't matter if a technology doesn't actually work so long as it makes the miserably uninformed feel smug in their bourgeois indifference to the collapse of the planetary atmosphere.

    I personally can't wait to rush out and buy a Tesla Model S signature performance model so that I can express my innate financial and, of course, moral superiority to the roughly 50 Bengalis who would need to spend their entire annual earnings to buy 1/50 th of such a magical car.

    I mean, it's not like they're members of a wonderful culture like, um, ours.

    Of course, we will all claim that our stupid electric cars are solar powered, even if hundreds of billions of dollars, euros, yen and yuan have not made solar energy able to produce, as of 2010, just 31.221 billion kwh, which works out, for those who haven't joined Greenpeace and may thus be able to do math, 3,500 MW of average continuous power, the equivalent of maybe 3 average sized coal plants on a planet with many thousands of coal plants.

    But who cares?   Isn't it better to lie to ourselves?   Don't worry, be happy.

    Congratulations on this wonderful discovery of a car for bored millionaires making the "best car ever" list in the toxic unsustainable car culture.

    Congratulations.    Heckuva job..

    I wish there was one goddamned person in this country who even had a remote clue, but that would be, apparently, too much to ask.

    •  What are you doing on the internet?! (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Lawrence, Caelian, madhaus

      Such a waste of energy and infrastructure costs.  Run away!

    •  The reason those e-vehicles in China produce... (8+ / 0-)

      ...more CO2 is because the country generates 86% of its electricity with coal.

      Don't tell me what you believe, show me what you do and I will tell you what you believe.

      by Meteor Blades on Mon Nov 12, 2012 at 08:16:04 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  Oh, really? (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Neko608, Egalitare, G2geek, madhaus

      Ooopsie:

      Tesla Fires Up Solar-Powered Charging Stations

      By Ashlee Vance on September 25, 2012

      snip

      Tesla Motors (TSLA), the all-electric-car maker, has set up six of these stations alongside freeways in California to help cars complete long-distance journeys such as Los Angeles to San Francisco or Santa Barbara to Las Vegas. Tesla, which Musk co-founded and runs as chief executive officer, plans to put dozens more of the stations in California over the next year and to cover most of the U.S. by 2014.

      http://www.businessweek.com/...

      It's best to be informed before deciding to post a bunch of gobbledigook....

      "A candle loses nothing by lighting another candle" - Mohammed Nabbous, R.I.P.

      by Lawrence on Mon Nov 12, 2012 at 08:17:03 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  This has been analyzed before (5+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Lawrence, Caelian, wrights, G2geek, madhaus

      Fixed power plants are so much more efficient than mobile ones that even with fossil fuels generating the electricity, there's less CO2 emitted if you electrify the fleet.

    •  The reason (8+ / 0-)

      Chinese scientists find electric cars to be dirty is because China generates so much of its electricity from coal-fired plants. So if you add a large electric car fleet to be charged from those plants, of course they will generate more pollution.  

      However, an electric car can be recharged from electricity generated by ANY means.  So, if the generation is via solar panels, or wind turbines, or just about anything cleaner than coal, then the pollution emissions of an electric car fleet will be lower--potentially much lower if renewable sources of electricity are aggressively promoted.  

      It is a typical right-wing meme that green energy production is impractical and will never replace fossil fueled technology, which NNadir expresses perfectly, with a twist:

      It doesn't matter if a technology doesn't actually work so long as it makes the miserably uninformed feel smug in their bourgeois indifference to the collapse of the planetary atmosphere.
      The twist, of course, is the concession to the reality of global warming.  It is clear that, due to the obstruction of the fossil fuel industry, green power generation has not got along as far as we would like.  You may recall that it was President Reagan who removed the solar panels from the White House roof that President Carter had installed.  We are talking about a President who took office thirty-two years ago! And even back then, the writing on the wall about climate change and energy production was clear.  Think of how much time has been wasted.

      As for the actual potential of solar power  in the U.S.:

      A 2012 report from the National Renewable Energy Laboratory described technically available renewable energy resources for each state and estimated that urban utility scale photovoltaics could supply 2,232 TWh/year, rural utility scale PV 280,613 TWh/year, rooftop PV 818 TWh/year, and CSP 116,146 TWh/year, for a total of almost 400,000 TWh/year, 100 times current consumption of 3,856 TWh in 2011.[8][9]

      Onshore wind potential is estimated at 32,784 TWh/year, and offshore wind at 16,976 TWh/year. The total available from all renewable resources is estimated at 481,963 TWh/year.[10]

      It is clear that the main problem is political.  If we invest sufficient resources on a large scale, the energy basis of our civilization can be transformed.  The only reason we are not moving in that direction is because of a political elite that is invested in the old fossil fuel system and would rather stick their heads in the sand than face the long-term consequences of continuing to rely on fossil fuels.
    •  China? Seriously? Have you looked at the energy (0+ / 0-)

      generation mix on the West Coast, where most of the EVs are?  Hint: not much coal.  My utility says it uses 2%.  And yes, I have solar.

      Oh yeah, and gasoline is so much cleaner, because it requires absolutely NO energy and NO emissions to explore for oil, drill for oil, pump up oil, transport oil, refine oil, transport gasoline, or run a gas station.  It also requires NO energy, NO emissions, and NO cost to run a ginormous "defense" operation to patrol the oil shipping lanes, there are so very, very few emissions coming from hundreds of millions of vehicles.

      Nice try.  Jackass.

      In capitalist America, bank robs you!

      by madhaus on Tue Nov 13, 2012 at 11:52:11 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  For all those who says it cost to much to have a (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Lawrence, Neko608, G2geek, Calamity Jean

    chance in the regular market well look at how many Hummers got bought and the price of big Pickups and SUVs that won't fit in normal garages.Of course I would rather have a Hybrid Burn-many-fuels Turbine Electric Vehicle myself,can't understand why Chrysler doesn't have one out yet they got the Tech.  

    •  PS that can be charged up with plug-in or (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Lawrence, G2geek, Calamity Jean

      Solar Panels.

    •  There's no doubt that cars like the Hummer (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      G2geek, Lawrence

      and the giant Suburbans and Expeditions are execrable in terms of gas mileage, but a Hummer H3 can go well over 300 miles on a tankful in a country where gas stations are plentiful. The real challenge for ecars like the Tesla is building up the infrastructure so that charging stations are much more numerous and widely geographically distributed. For better or worse, we Americans love our cars in large part because at a moment's notice we can decide to drive from Michigan to Colorado and not have to worry about obtaining fuel at any stretch along the way. Until charging stations approach the saturation levels of gas stations, ecars will lag behind hybrids.

      •  Notice Hummer is gone? Guess it couldn't survive (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Lawrence

        without those danged government incentives.  As in $125K worth.  Per vehicle.  I really never want to never hear about the EV tax credit being a problem ever again from anyone who didn't decry the Hummer write-off.

        Btw it's still there, I think $28k or so.

        In capitalist America, bank robs you!

        by madhaus on Tue Nov 13, 2012 at 11:56:43 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

  •  Well -- Nice for rich folks at $100k. (0+ / 0-)

    And you're not going very far on the electricity you'll get from solar panels on your roof, but...

    Pretty cool, just like most toys for rich girls and boys.

    Hard to imagine the oil companies hating it too much.
    I rather doubt they'll lose too much money to $100K electric cars, and...

    about a fifth of the electricity in this country is produced by natural gas, a figure that'll go up as coal plants are retired, so...

    it's not like the oil companies are losing out so badly.

    LG: You know what? You got spunk. MR: Well, Yes... LG: I hate spunk!

    by dinotrac on Mon Nov 12, 2012 at 08:15:38 PM PST

  •  Looks like you can get a decent model for $60K (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Lawrence, G2geek, madhaus

    I drive about 500 miles for work in CA, so spend roughly $4000-4500/yr on gas, so if I own a car for 5 years I'd save quite a bit of change.  

    •  If you compare the Tesla to some of its (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      G2geek, madhaus

      competition, Mercedes for example, its competing against the c class on the lower end, the e-class on the higher end, and against the base model s class at the higher end.

      In comparison to any of those, you'd save a huge chunk of change due to not buying gas.

      And you'd have a much cooler car, to boot.

      I guess that's why all Tesla Model S cars are sold out until the end of next year.

      "A candle loses nothing by lighting another candle" - Mohammed Nabbous, R.I.P.

      by Lawrence on Mon Nov 12, 2012 at 08:35:08 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  And much more fun to drive (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        RJP9999, G2geek, Lawrence

        Electric motors have high torque at all speeds, so you have really fast accelleration from a stop.

        Sure, they're play-things for the rich, but so were carriages and they evolved into cars for everyone.

        Better to hide your tax returns and be thought a crook than to release them and remove all doubt. [Adapted from Abraham Lincoln]

        by Caelian on Mon Nov 12, 2012 at 09:50:47 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Not just the rich. (0+ / 0-)

          Plenty of upper middle class buy cars in this category.

          The real big change is going to come once the electric cars start showing up at reduced prices in the used car market.  I bet there are also going to be some good, stronger after-market batteries out there for cars like the leaf in a couple of years.

          "A candle loses nothing by lighting another candle" - Mohammed Nabbous, R.I.P.

          by Lawrence on Tue Nov 13, 2012 at 03:36:26 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Most of you can afford a Leaf on lease right now (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Lawrence

            You can get a deal around here for less than $160 a month.  I don't know if those deals are nationwide.  Most of you are paying more than that a month for gas.

            In capitalist America, bank robs you!

            by madhaus on Tue Nov 13, 2012 at 11:59:15 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

  •  The real innovation is with this tech (0+ / 0-)

    I want one.

    Listen to Netroots Radio or to our pods on Stitcher. "We are but temporary visitors on this planet. The microbes own this place" <- Me

    by yuriwho on Mon Nov 12, 2012 at 08:36:06 PM PST

  •  50 grand? (0+ / 0-)

    Ah the model T for the masses... Ha

    All I want is the truth. Just gimmie some truth John Lennon

    by gimmie truth on Mon Nov 12, 2012 at 09:46:27 PM PST

  •  It's great that Musk is using his dough to finance (0+ / 0-)

    technology advances in batteries, but the impact of a $50,000 vehicle that will go only 300 miles at the sedate speed of 55mph—try driving that on a Michigan freeway!—will be invisible for all but a tiny number of buyers. As the Tesla folks have indicated, the current models are really just transitional testbeds, and I bet it's going to be at least a decade and probably longer for their progress in batteries to have a measurable impact on the consumer side of the auto industry. It'll be interesting to watch.

  •  must be true, I saw an EV attack article in paper (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Lawrence

    la times maybe..can't remember, that said there were few charging stations in Detroit even and people were bugging about it.poor sales, dissatisfied et frkn cetera.

    and you can't tow your boat. also.

    This machine kills Fascists.

    by KenBee on Tue Nov 13, 2012 at 03:15:32 AM PST

    •  Was was was go the oil shills (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Lawrence, KenBee

      Since I own a Leaf I frequent a number of EV boards.  The same tired lies keep coming up over and over in either news stories or from the commenters on general sites or even our forums.  But but but coal! But but but explosions! But but but expensive! But but but hydrogen!

      I am so tired of all their lying crap.  It's like slaying the danged Hydra.

      In capitalist America, bank robs you!

      by madhaus on Tue Nov 13, 2012 at 12:02:59 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  Any thoughts on swappable batteries? (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Lawrence

    Seems like there may be some advantages to uncoupling the "fuel" from the vehicle (yes, strictly speaking the battery is a fuel storage container, but bear with me).
    Rough idea:
    A standardized battery size.  For sake of argument, let's say 9" tall, 12" wide and 42" long.  (There could of course be a handful of different sizes, like "D" and "C" batteries).
    Battery stations, much like gas stations.  The "pumps" remove your depleted battery (or batteries) and replace it with one or more charged batteries.  "Pumps" are capable of reading the existing charge, as well as battery type and condition of the  currently onboard battery and credit your purchase accordingly.  So, I pay more when I came in with a 10% charged battery than I do when I come in with a 30% battery.

    Advantages:
    1. Convenience - refueling takes about as long as gasoline refueling
    2. Range - Can keep swapping batteries and driving. The wheels on your car can keep rolling down the road while your last "tank" of fuel (battery) is being refilled and you next "tank" awaits you at the next station.
    3. Upgradable - It sucks when you get a new phone or computer, just to have the more awesome thing hit the market next month.  Scale that feeling up to the purchase pice of a car and imagine the sad that folks might have when next year's batteries get a 20% boost in capacity or 10% reduction in weight.  If swappable, I can adopt the latest battery tech without throwing away my car.  (Maybe last year's batteries end up discounted at the stations, with the latest being priced like high octane fuel).
    4. Choice - If I usually drive 15 miles a day and recharge at home 90% of the time, I can opt for a lower capacity battery (or batteries), which reduces my weight considerably.  

    Example: imagine a standard sized sedan with a 180 mile range (at purchase) is stocked with 3 batteries size "x", capacity "60" (yeah, yeah the range varies with driving and vehicles type, but I had to give it some sort of name.)  If I am mostly doing in town errands and a short commute, I could leave two battery bays empty and shave a few hundred ponds off my curb weight.  A couple of years later, I go on a long road trip, I drop in 3 of those new size x, capacity "80"'s, giving my vehicle a 240 mile range.  After my trip, I return to a single "60".  A few years down the road, I find my self running 2 "80"'s most of the time, because even though I could get by on a pair of "60"s with my new commute, no station carries or accepts "60"s anymore.  They've all been recycled (they were really only "48"s but this time in the battery lifecycle anyway)

    Challenges (that I can see):
    1. Pricing: You purchase the charge. That part is easy.  But there would need to be some figuring on how to charge (and credit) the customer for the batteries themselves.  Who owns the batteries?  Are batteries constantly bought and sold at each refueling?  Do I get a monthly (or quarterly) bill for my battery rental (so many days x number of batteries x type of batteries (premium, standard, economy, etc) ?
    2. Infrastructure.  If many people do at least part of the charging at home or work, "refueling" at a station would be less frequent than with liquid fuel, thereby decreasing the incentive to install needed infrastructure.  Maybe stations are as common as those quick oil change places.

    Final thought:
    Would this be feasible for certain fleets, in an effort to introduce the technology?  School buses maybe, that could go back to garage during the school day to get "refueled"?

    "Keep your feet on the ground and keep reaching for the stars" --Casey Kasem

    by netop on Tue Nov 13, 2012 at 05:33:44 AM PST

    •  I don't think it's feasible now (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Lawrence

      A Better Place is trying this in Israel, but they have an insanely cushy government-mandated monopoly where you cannot install charging equipment from anyone else in your own home.  Also do you have any idea just how many battery packs would have to be swapped to power the 24 kW Leaf, let alone the super sized 85 kW Tesla?

      I could see this working when batteries can get much more charge in the same volume as they are now, or if swapping is infrequent.  However, vehicles would have to be redesigned for easy swapping of the packs.

      In capitalist America, bank robs you!

      by madhaus on Tue Nov 13, 2012 at 12:07:16 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  With the advent of quick-charging stations, (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      netop

      I think that battery swapping, except in limited application like with city or school buses, is pretty much dead in the water.

      "A candle loses nothing by lighting another candle" - Mohammed Nabbous, R.I.P.

      by Lawrence on Tue Nov 13, 2012 at 12:48:10 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  Actually, the Model S battery pack IS swappable (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Lawrence, netop

      It was designed with the idea of a 5 minute battery swap.  

      Not by mere humans, but through some heavy machinery since the batteries are really heavy.

      However nobody has stepped up to the plate to handle the infrastructure issues associated with swapping out batteries.  And the pricing challenges are a huge problem.

      The design is there, but nobody is taking advantage of it.  Yet.

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