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rant on...

I sincerely hope Kos was being facetious with his post this morning.  Aside from the fact that a hostile nation on our Southern border is absolutely unacceptable (Imagine Iran where Texas is) this issue was settled almost 150 years ago.  Abraham Lincoln himself (along with about 600,000 other Americans) died so that our Union would not perish from the earth.  Their sacrifice is not something that's old and dusty that can be ignored as mere statistical history.  Their sacrifice is as new and fresh as each breath of air I take into my lungs.  They did not die in vain.  I don't give a flying rats ass if every man woman and child in Texas and Louisiana signs those fucking petitions, it's not going to happen.

There are 15 U.S. Military bases in Texas along with the Johnson Space Center and 4 more U.S. Military bases in Louisiana...  Does anyone think we're going to just hand all that over free and clear to a bunch of fucking traitors?  I don't think so.  So, all of you people telling these Secessionists not to let the door hit them in the ass need to STFU!

...end rant

8:55 AM PT: So now I hear it's 20 States?  Alabama, Arkansas, Colorado, Florida, Georgia, Indiana, Kentucky, Louisiana, Michigan, Mississippi, Missouri, Montana, New Jersey, New York, North Carolina, North Dakota, Oregon, South Carolina, Tennessee and Texas

Originally posted to PvtJarHead on Tue Nov 13, 2012 at 08:35 AM PST.

Also republished by Badger State Progressive.


Do you think secession is an option?

16%20 votes
76%92 votes
7%9 votes

| 121 votes | Vote | Results

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Comment Preferences

  •  If all the secessionists promise to not come back (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    PvtJarHead, Kevskos, skrekk

    I'd be willing to give them one of the uninhabited Aleutian Islands or maybe an abandoned oil rig out in the Gulf of Mexico.

  •  I think we're all finding our own ways... (5+ / 0-) make fun of their little rants.  We all know in the end they're not going to do shit about secession.  They're just sore losers right now that want to take their toys and go home, but they don't have a home to go to.

    I think everyone just needs to take all of these responses to secession in the humorous spirit that I think most of them are made and chill a bit.

    It's not unexpected that some on the right would do this.  They've tried everything else.  Hey, calling for secession sounds more sane than saying that a woman's body can shut down pregnancy from rape.  So, it's not the craziest thing the right has said.

    Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the merger of state and corporate power -- Benito Mussolini

    by drcraigphd on Tue Nov 13, 2012 at 08:42:49 AM PST

    •  This ain't fun and games... (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Kevskos, coquiero, skod, arabian

      These people have tried undermining our democracy from the inside.  I'm not about to entertain the idea of them doing it from the outside.

      "Ich bin ein Dachs!"

      by PvtJarHead on Tue Nov 13, 2012 at 08:52:09 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  You're absolutely right (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:

        What they're advocating involves war.

        At least last time they tried it, it did.  Treason is a harsh word, but it fits here.

        "I speak the truth, not as much as I would, but as much as I dare, and I dare a little the more, as I grow older." --Montaigne

        by DrLori on Tue Nov 13, 2012 at 08:58:41 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Let's take seriously the fact that ... (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:

          it WAS tried ... and  lots of people died.  And many more died willingly in subsequent world wars, etc., defending their principles.  I wouldn't take the secession wish lightly these days, given the mood of half the country.

          "Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity, and I am not sure about the universe." -- Albert Einstein

          by Neuroptimalian on Tue Nov 13, 2012 at 06:21:13 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

  •  I don't find the joking about how great it would (8+ / 0-)

    be for Texas to succeed to be very funny.

    As you say, there are a lot of military here, and as a Texas resident, I want to stick up for Texas and say this state has a lot to recommend it.  Much more than people think.

    Just because there happen to be a lot of vocal wing-nuts who have taken over local politics doesn't mean we should write off the whole state.

    A better response would be, "let's take back local politics one city council member at a time, and work our way up from there."

    I would invite anyone making fun of Texas to come spend a weekend with me, particularly during wildflower season, and meet my neighbors, all of whom are very nice and friendly, even the wing-nut ones.

    I don't think they'd joke as easily then.

    That being said, I do find it funny that someone from San Antonio has apparently started their own internet petition to succeed from Texas.

    I blog about my daughter with autism at her website

    by coquiero on Tue Nov 13, 2012 at 08:45:31 AM PST

    •  I am a fifth-generation Texan, and I can't (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      coquiero, PvtJarHead

      say whether, on balance, Texas does more good than harm. But I can say that the "taking back" idea makes little sense. Texas is politically where it has always been going back to before the rebellion with Mexico. And even if there was some place to go back to in Texas, doing it one person at a time will take forever.

      Might and Right are always fighting, in our youth it seems exciting. Right is always nearly winning, Might can hardly keep from grinning. -- Clarence Day

      by hestal on Tue Nov 13, 2012 at 11:53:14 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  It's like an onion (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      coquiero, PvtJarHead

      a neighborhood in SA files petition to secede from SA.
      a block in the neighborhood ...
      a house on the block..
      the resident of the backyard doghouse...
      one of the worker ants in the nest under the right rear corner of the doghouse...
      a fungal spore on the back of the ant ...
      a carbon molecule in that spore...
      a proton...
      a ...

      -- the people are the leaders

      by in on Wed Nov 14, 2012 at 09:12:43 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  meet my neighbors, (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:

      all of whom are very nice and friendly, even the wing-nut ones.
      I don't think they'd joke as easily then.

      Most of the "Let Texas (Louisiana,etc) secede" petitions were initiated by teas, not by dkosers. But the teas probably don't think they're joking (tea self-parody is more often the case than not).

      -- the people are the leaders

      by in on Wed Nov 14, 2012 at 10:46:10 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  Why Would They Need to Be Hostile? (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    Not that I think there's any chance they could get a significant separatist movement going much less put together an offer that the union might find interesting.

    We are called to speak for the weak, for the voiceless, for victims of our nation and for those it calls enemy.... --ML King "Beyond Vietnam"

    by Gooserock on Tue Nov 13, 2012 at 08:46:12 AM PST

  •  A Settled Question For The Past 143 Years (10+ / 0-)

    Any secession attempt is illegal, as outlined by the result of the Civil War & in constitutional law with Texas v. White, 74 U.S. 700 (1869). Any State that attempts to secede would see invocation of the Insurrection Act, with Posse Comitatus allowing for the United States Military to be used to "put down lawlessness, insurrection and rebellion" within the United States.

    As United States citizens our "blood and treasure" has been spilled & spent to protect all territories within the union. As a non-resident, I have just as much right to move to any state, buy land, and "become" a resident as anyone already living there. A bunch of assholes signing petitions have no right to deny that to me or anyone else.

    The Court held in a 5–3 decision that Texas had remained a state of the United States ever since it first joined the Union, despite its joining the Confederate States of America and its being under military rule at the time of the decision in the case. It further held that the Constitution did not permit states to secede from the United States....The main rationale for the argument that states could not legally secede was derived from the Articles of Confederation's description of the American Union as perpetual. This, combined with the current Constitution's expressed goal of creating a more perfect Union, suggested that the United States was now more perfectly perpetual.

    Also cited was the statement in Article Four of the United States Constitution that "The United States shall guarantee to every State in this Union a Republican Form of Government." This implies that Texas would always be a state, distinct from its government (since the Constitution refers to a state as having a government rather than being a government). This also suggested that the Constitution could work to ensure states remain intact and to regulate state governments.

    As the Court wrote, "The Constitution, in all its provisions, looks to an indestructible Union, composed of indestructible States." Hence Texas would still be a state even when laws are passed saying it is independent. Such laws would be "absolutely null."

  •  I truly think that they should put it to a (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    PvtJarHead, Neuroptimalian

    referendum in the states.

    Let the people vote. If the majority wants to leave - forever - I think we should let them. And close down all bases, etc. They need to take over all that stuff on their own tax dollars.

    And I don't understand what PvtJarHead is talking about - a hostile country on our borders. It would only be hostile if the majority wanted to leave and we kept them by force. Otherwise, it would be Mexico II. Call it Texico.

    I am progressive. I am liberal. I make no apologies. - Kos

    My political compass: - 8.38,-6.97

    by pucklady on Tue Nov 13, 2012 at 09:14:53 AM PST

  •  Of course this won't happen, but a question - (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Timaeus, PvtJarHead

    Would you go to war over this?

    Would you send US troops into Texas and other states and fight an armed conflict with them?

    What if they refuse to recognize the federal government, hand over tax payments, deny full faith and credit to other laws, refuse to follow federal law or recognize its authority?

    I know this is theoretical, it won't come to that, but that is what secession entails, both now and in 1861.

    They can do things to force the hand of the federal government.  Imagine two dozen states refusing to recognize federal authority.

    We would obviously not allow any troops, weapons, or military bases to fall into their hands.  I suppose we could cut off all federal funding, like the economic sanctions against Iran.  Since they are net takers, not givers, when it comes to federal taxes, that might hurt them more than it hurts us.  But think of all the innocent victims.

    They are the ones who would have to make the next move.  I was just thinking about what they could do and what the appropriate response would be.

    Of course, 25,000 pissed off people signing a petition doesn't mean anyone is seceding.  You could get 25,000 people to agree to anything in a state the size of Texas.

  •  I do see what they are portraying... (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    PvtJarHead, coquiero

    that they are the "fine, I'll take my game and go home" crowd. We all know these types. Unwilling to admit they are WRONG, then cover it up as showing how "patriotic" they are standing up to their 'government'. Horrible thought process - they then forget that they are against the will of the people - the exact democracy they claim to protect (only when it goes their way of course).

    Ugh...very ugly. But, these people will move on, one way or another.

  •  Exactly. Nothing is going to happen. (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    PvtJarHead, coquiero

    Just a bunch of angry, frustrated folks needing attention.  I hope the response includes a suggestion to take a "news break".  I hear the effects wear off after 3 days depending on the amount of propaganda absorbed.

  •  Texas v. White (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    PvtJarHead, coquiero, skrekk, FG

    It is a myth that a state, even Texas, can leave the Union. Well at least not with out the permission of the other states.

    Speaking for the Majority Chief Justice Salmon Chase said in part:

    When, therefore, Texas became one of the United States, she entered into an indissoluble relation. All the obligations of perpetual union, and all the guaranties of republican government in the Union, attached at once to the State. The act which consummated her admission into the Union was something more than a compact; it was the incorporation of a new member into the political body. And it was final. The union between Texas and the other States was as complete, as perpetual, and as indissoluble as the union between the original States. There was no place for reconsideration or revocation, except through revolution or through consent of the States.

    It is possible to read the history of this country as one long struggle to extend the liberties established in our Constitution to everyone in America. - Molly Ivins

    by se portland on Tue Nov 13, 2012 at 09:50:29 AM PST

    •  How many states would be needed ... (0+ / 0-)

      to confer consent?  If it's only 26 (a majority), they're practically there already, theoretically.

      Besides, I don't think the secession seekers are too worried about what prior generations may have supposedly committed later generations to.  The American Revolution itself was fought over similar issues.

      "Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity, and I am not sure about the universe." -- Albert Einstein

      by Neuroptimalian on Tue Nov 13, 2012 at 06:34:51 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  response (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    Deport Everyone That Signed A Petition To Withdraw Their State From The United States Of America.

    Javelin, Jockey details, all posts, discontinue

    by jam on Tue Nov 13, 2012 at 10:34:05 AM PST

  •  do you have a better idea? (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    PvtJarHead, Neuroptimalian

    We have at least two distinct groups of people who do not want to live in the same country and one of which has no problem with exterminating the other.  Secession is the obvious solution.

    To those who say the New Deal didn't work: WWII was also government spending

    by Visceral on Tue Nov 13, 2012 at 11:07:43 AM PST

    •  No one's stopping individuals from leaving... (0+ / 0-)

      If they no longer care for the form of government we have, I say good riddance.  But as for them leaving en mass and taking our sovereign territory with them, I say hell no!

      Renounce your citizenship, sell your house, pack your bags, and get the fuck out.  Send us a postcard so we know where to forward your mail.

      "Ich bin ein Dachs!"

      by PvtJarHead on Tue Nov 13, 2012 at 01:11:30 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  they don't want to leave either (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        PvtJarHead, Neuroptimalian

        They think the whole country is theirs by right.  They think we're the ones who don't deserve to be here and who ought to leave for Canada or Europe ... or die, and they're happy to help us with that last one.  Either way, how do you propose to relocate 150 million people?

        Secession/partition means most people get to stay put.

        To those who say the New Deal didn't work: WWII was also government spending

        by Visceral on Tue Nov 13, 2012 at 02:10:47 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Again, Secession Is Not An Option... (0+ / 0-)

          They'll either suck it up and deal with reality, or they can emigrate.

          "Ich bin ein Dachs!"

          by PvtJarHead on Tue Nov 13, 2012 at 04:35:30 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

        •  The Grand Tea Lift of 2013 (0+ / 0-)

          how do you propose to relocate 150 million people?
          Conservatives are the folks who claim that everyone on the planet needs only 2 SF in which to live (years ago, I read some loony conservative opinion to that effect)
          150 million cons could fit into Somalia, if David Koch didn't demand at least 99.9% of the real estate...

          USA pop. 2012 estimate 314,756,000, Density 33.7/km2 (87.4/sq mi)

          Somalia Area 637,657 km2 (246,200 sq mi)

          After the teas eradicate all of the current Somalians (but maybe Somalis would like Tennessee, Texas, South Carolina... , though this incurs a Mariel Boatlift cost),

          314756000person/246200sq mi/(5280ft/mi)^2
          211.5 sf/person
          But only the tea half of USA's population is self-repatriating to their homeland, so
          423 sf/teaperson
          After awarding HRH David Koch 99%, each tea has
          4.2 sf/teaperson
          But after awarding HRH David (Selassie) Koch (pbuh) his full 99.9% due, each tea has
          0.4 sf/teaperson

          0.4 is not quite 2sf/teaperson, but the teas will exclaim,  'Free, at last. Free, at last. Thank Jim "Koch" Jones Almighty, teas are free at last!'

          -- the people are the leaders

          by in on Wed Nov 14, 2012 at 10:59:59 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

  •  Secession was argued before the Civil War, (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    but the Southern states actually rebelled. They tried to claim secession to gull the gullible back then, but they and Lincoln knew that the were in rebellion, which they had a right to do. The Founding Fathers made that assertion in the Declaration of Independence.

    Might and Right are always fighting, in our youth it seems exciting. Right is always nearly winning, Might can hardly keep from grinning. -- Clarence Day

    by hestal on Tue Nov 13, 2012 at 11:50:16 AM PST

  •  Tipped, recced and republished to (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    I started with nothing and still have most of it left. - Seasick Steve

    by ruleoflaw on Tue Nov 13, 2012 at 06:51:20 PM PST

  •  Here's another problem with secession (0+ / 0-)

    Say a red state, let's call it South Carolina, secedes from the Union. What happens to the 44% of South Carolinians who voted for Obama a week ago? Particularly, what happens to the 36% of South Carolinians who are people of color?

          Yes, we can say that they should just move to a blue or purple state, but that could be a great hardship for many of them. This would be particularly true for rural African-Americans, who could have trouble finding somewhere comfortable to live elsewhere. Do Black Belt farmers really deserve a choice between Jim Crow (which would be virtually assured in an independent South Carolina), moving to a lily-white rural area, and moving to a big, unfamiliar city? I think not.

    Male, 22, -4.75/-6.92, born and raised TN-05, now WI-02. "You're damn right we're making a difference!" - Senator-Elect Tammy Baldwin (D-Madison)

    by fearlessfred14 on Tue Nov 13, 2012 at 09:52:15 PM PST

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