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So, we have a rapidly-escalating situation in an area of the world that is very unstable, even by it's own historical standards.  There is a well-recommended, and well written piece by Assaf that provides good background on what the facts on the ground are and are not saying about what's happening in Jerusalem and Gaza, and suggests election-year politicking by Netanyahu as a driving force.  

There's a smattering of other posts from people who know more about this than me - and InAntalya's ground reports from Syria are always worth a read.  Today, this DKos diariest is discussing the formation of the Islamest State of Aleppo by A-Qaida related rebel groups in NW Syria.

Jilly W expressed concern about Israel's actions right now, leading to a few HR's for the statements that some interpreted as parroting anti-israel talking points.

If I could make a modest observation, none of this is within a ten-foot pole of the DKos front page.  And most would-be diarists, except some brave/foolish people like myself, are steering clear as well, preferring talk of twinkies and how much closer Romney might be to 47.49%.  However, as a progressive blog, isn't this whole issue something we SHOULD be talking more about?

Some food for thought below:

I get that the Israel/Palestine flame wars have left their mark around here, and that people on both sides are passionate about this.  I get that any time you have two cultural groups of people who have heard members of the other group - leaders of the other group - discuss eliminating them from the face of the earth, it's not likely to lead to a lot of trust in a reasoned dialogue.

But, how much more or less do we get by not discussing it at all - by just avoiding the topic and kicking the can down the road because nobody can deal with it?  There's no intelligent diary or comment someone can make on this whole issue that resolves the question or advances an easily-defended policy without raising several more questions and possibly a few witch hunts.  And so - nobody talks about the problem.  Nobody talks about major forces that are in motion right now that are likely to figure importantly into the calculus of the world order.

Obviously, President Obama is likely considering his own response to these very questions - what if Iran is supplying Hamas?  What if Netanyahu is doing a George W Bush in 2002?  What is the correct role for the US to take in this emerging crisis - or more accurately crises.

Well I for one think it would be helpful to start finding a narrative on the left for this and working through the difficult process of finding common ground.  Absent our voices, others will fill the void and take the narrative in a direction that most, if not all, of us at Dkos would disagree with.  This includes, but is not limited to, the American Enterprise Institute, who just today began setting their stake in the narrative:

So what’s going to happen next? Israel has called up tens of thousands of reserves; a ground incursion into Gaza looks likely. Many more Palestinians will perish. And the vanguard of the new Sunni order? They’re going to betray the Palestinians of Gaza, because they always do. Worse still, all those angry and impotent members of the Organization of the Islamic Conference are going to head for the United Nations and support Fatah’s foolhardy quest for recognition.

Cui bono? No one. And what of Barack Obama? That’s another story for later today.

What say us?

UPDATE:

I agree with the commentator who observed that this discussion has matured here.. this has so far been a donut-free I/P thread.  I have a lot of hope that a community like Dkos can be part of the discussion for an intelligent and thoughtful path forward.

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Comment Preferences

  •  I Almost NEVER Talk I/P Here (25+ / 0-)

    the few times I have, where I think my points are pretty moderate, I got pounded into the ground and even called anti-semitic. If you want my POV Glenn Greenwald pretty much says and has been saying EXACTLY what I think for years! I will leave it at that ....

    When opportunity calls pick up the phone and give it directions to your house.

    by webranding on Mon Nov 19, 2012 at 03:27:48 PM PST

  •  Because there's no point. (8+ / 0-)

    The US isn't an honest broker there.

    You know, I sometimes think if I could see, I'd be kicking a lot of ass. -Stevie Wonder at the Glastonbury Festival, 2010

    by Rich in PA on Mon Nov 19, 2012 at 03:31:19 PM PST

  •  I have never seen a sane I/P discussion. (14+ / 0-)

    Not here. Not anywhere. I generally do not participate. I absolutely do not support Israel and have not for a long time. I will say nothing more.

    I used to be Snow White. And then I drifted. - Mae West

    by CherryTheTart on Mon Nov 19, 2012 at 03:31:56 PM PST

  •  I scanned the diaries you mentioned (15+ / 0-)

    and really had no idea how to meaningfully contribute to them.  I guess I just feel overwhelmed by the intractability of the conflict.  It just seems so damn complicated and confusing and insoluble-- it would be like me having an opinion on an argument between rival quantuum physicists.  A friend of a friend is blogging from a home in Gaza, and her perspective is so different from those of an old highschool buddy who is now a conservative Democrat and Reform rabbi, that it's like they're on different planets.

    I honestly don't know WHAT I would want the Obama administration to do on my behalf -- I'm hoping they have some kind of idea about constructive modes of engagement.   It's not that I have ultimate faith in government wisdom -- far from it.  But I have no real sense of what even lies in the realm of the possible here.

    But I take your point -- it's an awfully important development in foreign affairs to be treated with absolute silence.

    "The extinction of the human race will come from its inability to EMOTIONALLY comprehend the exponential function." -- Edward Teller

    by lgmcp on Mon Nov 19, 2012 at 03:37:02 PM PST

  •  Because I don't care. (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Farugia

    At least, no more than I care about any other place with a similar population.  

    "They fear this man. They know he will see farther than they, and he will bind them with ancient logics." -The stoner guy in The Cabin in the Woods

    by Troubadour on Mon Nov 19, 2012 at 03:39:42 PM PST

    •   10 million people (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      JoanMar, poco, historys mysteries, Smoh

      in Israel and Palestine (or Palestinian Territories, depending on your source).

      I think, even on the face of it, that that's a sufficient number of human souls to bother our little heads about.  Even if it weren't for the nukes and the shipping lanes and the oil reserves and an absolutely pivotal geopolitical role.

      "The extinction of the human race will come from its inability to EMOTIONALLY comprehend the exponential function." -- Edward Teller

      by lgmcp on Mon Nov 19, 2012 at 03:48:39 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  And the fact that the whole thing (7+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        lgmcp, JoanMar, poco, 4democracy, SCFrog, corvo, Smoh

        is paid for with US taxpayer dollars.

        •  Hardly (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          lgmcp, LilithGardener, puzzled

          Irrespective of recent ridiculous claims to the contrary, US foreign aid to Israel for defense is about $3 billion out of a total defense budget of about $15 billion.  That would be 20%. Twenty percent too much if you ask me, but it is a long ways from the whole thing being paid for with US dollars.

          •  True as regards how big a share (0+ / 0-)

            the US contributes towards Israel's overall defense expenditure.  

            If on the other hand you look at the amounts Israel receives from the US, in relation to other recipients of US foreign aid both economic and military ... Israel gets more absolute dollars for military assistance than any country except Afghanistan where we have a current active conflict.

            The table of recipients at http://en.wikipedia.org/... allows one to sort by dollars towards military aid, towards economic aid, towards combined aid, and towards all those categories per capita.  It's quite interesting.  By any measure, Israel is a top priority for this country's foreign expenditure.

            "The extinction of the human race will come from its inability to EMOTIONALLY comprehend the exponential function." -- Edward Teller

            by lgmcp on Mon Nov 19, 2012 at 04:49:15 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  Some of the things which give value to Israel are (0+ / 0-)

              not in direct budgeting. Work between the militaries and the intelligence divisions, such as CIA communications stuff which has been mentioned in press accounts of the prep for the currently ongoing enterprise.

      •  Which would put it 97th in population. (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Farugia

        Beneath countries like:

        Pakistan (181M)
        Nigeria (167M)
        Ethiopia (84M)
        Democratic Republic of Congo (70M)
        Tanzania (43M)
        Uganda (34M)
        Iraq (33M)
        Sudan (31M)
        Afghanistan (26M)
        Syria (21M)
        Angola (21M)
        Zimbabwe (13M)
        Rwanda (11M)
        Haiti (10M)
        Somalia (10M)

        The headlines from all these countries combined wouldn't add up to the attention paid to Israel/Palestine.  Anyone who can tell you more about Israel/Palestine than any one of those other countries has their priorities fucked up.

        "They fear this man. They know he will see farther than they, and he will bind them with ancient logics." -The stoner guy in The Cabin in the Woods

        by Troubadour on Mon Nov 19, 2012 at 04:00:54 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  I don't buy into that line of reasoning (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Celtic Merlin

          For, if I did, I might ignore the needs of people in a domestic State - which happens to have great needs, yet a lower population.

          •  There isn't a single one of the listed countries (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Farugia

            whose problems aren't far worse than those in Israel/Palestine, and far more broadly experienced.  But how often do we see diaries even here, among people who generally give a shit about things, about Ethiopia or the Democratic Republic of Congo, let alone in the media?  Israel/Palestine gets attention because the place has religious significance, and I'm goddam tired of tribal myths dictating 21st century policies.

            "They fear this man. They know he will see farther than they, and he will bind them with ancient logics." -The stoner guy in The Cabin in the Woods

            by Troubadour on Mon Nov 19, 2012 at 04:26:48 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  I disagree with this (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Smoh

              But only partially. It is true that there is a huge segment of the American population that only pays attention because of the religious significance. However, there are a growing number of people like me who pay attention because of the lopsided power dynamics going on between Israel and Palestine. I'm an atheist. I don't give a crap about the religious significance of the area. However, I do care about the historical implications of how the treatment of the Palestinians by the state of Israel has affected the entire region.

              I also think one of the other reasons this Israeli-Palestinian conflict gets so much attention compared to the other countries you listed is because of the way America is involved in the dynamic. It is a unique situation, and one which enrages many people like me who feel some responsibility for the deaths occurring in Gaza right now.

              Time is of no account with great thoughts, which are as fresh to-day as when they first passed through their authors' minds ages ago. - Samuel Smiles

              by moviemeister76 on Mon Nov 19, 2012 at 04:39:46 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  The fact is you could throw a dart at a map (0+ / 0-)

                of Sub-Saharan Africa and most likely hit a place where the people would find the living standards and physical safety of Palestinians to be a drastic improvement over theirs, and you're talking about the better part of a billion people, so this fixation on I/P is truly insane.  Wars have been fought in the past decade alone in Africa that cost over a million lives a piece, and got maybe three, four headlines a year in the Western media.  

                But let's leave aside Africa - things were a lot worse in Chechnya for a long time than in I/P, but I/P still got all the headlines.  Ditto for the Balkans.  The proof is in the pudding that this isn't about the level of violence or oppression, or else worse situations would get more attention.  They don't.  And I don't consider "lopsided power dynamics" to be a meaningful measure of something's moral significance.  If it were, then Tibet would get the same treatment as I/P if not more, but it doesn't - there are no deranged rants on the internet over Tibet by people who aren't Tibetans.  It's an issue almost entirely fueled by hatred and insane bigotries, and shorn of that bullshit, it boils down to relatively small numbers of people fighting over scraps of desert.  Fuck them.

                "They fear this man. They know he will see farther than they, and he will bind them with ancient logics." -The stoner guy in The Cabin in the Woods

                by Troubadour on Mon Nov 19, 2012 at 05:04:53 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

              •  I need to clarify this: (0+ / 0-)
                It's an issue almost entirely fueled by hatred and insane bigotries, and shorn of that bullshit, it boils down to relatively small numbers of people fighting over scraps of desert.  Fuck them.
                This is referring to I/P, not the Tibetan issue I had addressed in the sentence immediately preceding it.

                "They fear this man. They know he will see farther than they, and he will bind them with ancient logics." -The stoner guy in The Cabin in the Woods

                by Troubadour on Mon Nov 19, 2012 at 05:08:34 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  I dunno (0+ / 0-)

                  I actually do care about all of that, but I don't come to DKos to see discussion for it. I go to other sites to see those discussions. To be honest, DKos pretty much sucks when it comes to discussions of folks of color in general. It's fairly non-existant unless a lot of white people are involved as well.

                  And I disagree with your assessment about the living conditions of the Palestinians compared to sub-Saharan Africans. Palestinians in the West Bank are living better than many in Sub-Saharan Africa, but Gaza is now the most densely populated nation in the entire world and is completely dependent on outside aid.

                  Let's be honest, though. The reason why there are diaries about this is because most people still get their news from traditional media. The traditional American media doesn't give a shit about black people (American or otherwise), doesn't give a shit about most people outside the US, but absolutely loves the Israeli-Palestinian conflict because they get to keep their stupid narrative of the West versus the East going well into the 21st century. Until more Americans move away from traditional media sources, our diaries will reflect what is shown on television.

                  Time is of no account with great thoughts, which are as fresh to-day as when they first passed through their authors' minds ages ago. - Samuel Smiles

                  by moviemeister76 on Mon Nov 19, 2012 at 05:27:26 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

        •  asdf (0+ / 0-)
          Anyone who can tell you more about Israel/Palestine than any one of those other countries has their priorities fucked up.
          Idiotic comment.
  •  It may be because the conversation (8+ / 0-)

    is maturing.

    I have posted two of the diaries - a longer one and a shorter one. I have also engaged in comment discussions in most, but not all.

    I agree with some of the diaries and I disagree with the others, but something that almost all the diaries and a lot of comments seem to share is the ability to discuss this without name calling and a flood of HRs.

    Isn't that a good thing? Perhaps the Kos community can serve as an example of how to maturely discuss I/P issues instead of contributing to what I (darkly) refer to as the "circus."

    If you believe that ALL criticism of Israel is antisemitic, you're an idiot.
    If you believe that NONE of the criticism of Israel is antisemitic, you're a fool.
    If you call EVERYONE who criticizes Israel antisemitic, you're just an a$$hole

    by A Gutin Daf on Mon Nov 19, 2012 at 03:46:56 PM PST

    •  There has been a marked improvement (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Azazello, Smoh, FG, A Gutin Daf

      in the effort to maintain a civil and rational tone when discussing Israel and Palestine at DailyKos.   There's a lot of intelligent and well-meaning people here, and a set of broadly shared progressive values helps.  Still, it was only a few years back that every discussion here was a complete train-wreck.  I didn't follow the details, but my understanding is that Kos chose to ban everyone he saw as an instigator, particularly those who carried grudges against other poster from month to month and year to year.  Sufficient unto the day is the evil therof!

      "The extinction of the human race will come from its inability to EMOTIONALLY comprehend the exponential function." -- Edward Teller

      by lgmcp on Mon Nov 19, 2012 at 03:54:08 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Years Ago A Wrote A "Fun" Post Here (4+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Tonedevil, SCFrog, Smoh, 4democracy

        the title was something like:

        There Is A Small Holocaust Going On In My House
        It was that each spring when it warms up, the 10,000 acre field in front of my house gets planted with corn or soy beans. Well when that happens crickets come into my house 24/7.

        My two cats decided it was their role to find and kill them. I don't let my cats outside, but I hear stories of pooties bringing birds to their owners.

        Mine brought crickets.

        Once when I talked I/P issues a person went back and found this and said my use of "Holocaust' in this manner meant I was comparing Jews to insects.

        I tried to defend myself, but it went downhill so fast I don't have words for it. I got hide-rating into last month.

        When opportunity calls pick up the phone and give it directions to your house.

        by webranding on Mon Nov 19, 2012 at 04:02:02 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Wow, that sucks (0+ / 0-)

          as someone who teaches this stuff in the Jewish world I enjoy a clever use of the word more than many.

          If you believe that ALL criticism of Israel is antisemitic, you're an idiot.
          If you believe that NONE of the criticism of Israel is antisemitic, you're a fool.
          If you call EVERYONE who criticizes Israel antisemitic, you're just an a$$hole

          by A Gutin Daf on Mon Nov 19, 2012 at 08:05:49 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

    •  That's my hope - that somewhere this conversation (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Smoh

      can happen.  Someone besides that AEI needs to start developing talking points for this.

      Howard Dean will always be my president.

      by 4democracy on Mon Nov 19, 2012 at 03:55:46 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  You said it. (5+ / 0-)
    I get that the Israel/Palestine flame wars have left their mark around here, and that people on both sides are passionate about this.  I get that any time you have two cultural groups of people who have heard members of the other group - leaders of the other group - discuss eliminating them from the face of the earth, it's not likely to lead to a lot of trust in a reasoned dialogue.
    I'm glad this was recognized, because this is the majority of the reason why it's not overwhelming the site right now. I actually think the discussion has been good -- there are always diaries about the topic floating around, some much better than others, and so people get to discuss the current event without it turning into a site-wrecking obsession led by a few demagogues. I'm pleasantly surprised, myself, as a witness to quite a few I/P flamewars.

    it fitfully blows, half conceals, half discloses

    by Addison on Mon Nov 19, 2012 at 03:59:18 PM PST

    •  When I joined (2/15/12), (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      4democracy, lgmcp, beancounter

      One of the first things I was told was to stay clear of I/P diaries.  But I wanted to learn.  And I am. (No one warned me about Reba diaries.  Now I'm drawn like a moth to a flame.  It's a sickness)

      Cats are better than therapy, and I'm a therapist.

      by Smoh on Mon Nov 19, 2012 at 04:51:37 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Great advice...... (0+ / 0-)

        I joined a few years before you.  Have seen many, many great people have to leave because they forgot the two words that proceed (I love) Israel.

         Wooooo, that was close----almost forgot to put them in the example!  

  •  this is not a progressive site (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    corvo

    it's a propaganda arm of the Democratic Party. When the Party has an official position we'll hear about it on the front page. Until then it's all in the side diaries.

    •  Why do YOU post here if only the frontpage matters (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      lgmcp

      ...unless you think more than the frontpage matters, in which case, there are many diaries on the subject. And you haven't written one of them. I don't understand how your POV and action fit together.

      it fitfully blows, half conceals, half discloses

      by Addison on Mon Nov 19, 2012 at 04:11:11 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  I wish you well in promoting a sane discussion (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    4democracy, Smoh

    of why we are not sanely discussing this story.

    It is, in my view, one of the core foreign policy problems that must be peacefully resolved.

    The alternative outcomes are all, almost entirely, untenable, or unacceptable, or unthinkable.

  •  Ever since I took (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    4democracy, lgmcp, ferg, Smoh

    an International Relations class and we talked I/P back in the early 90's, I will browse some diaries, but don't say much. That experience in that class was brutal.

    But things SHOULD be discussed. I'm just not sure what the answer is.

    The Spice must Flow!

    by Texdude50 on Mon Nov 19, 2012 at 04:11:54 PM PST

  •  Can NOT have a rational discussion here on I/P (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Kane in CA, 4democracy
    There is a well-recommended, and well written piece by Assaf
    You use a one-sided diary to make a point. Point taken.

    I know I gave up on posting in I/P diaries as my only HRs are from this topic.

    Reading the posts it is easy to see I am in the persecuted minority with my views.

    As such you will mostly get self-congratulatory posts and nothing of a real discussion here,

    If there could be a I/P diary withOUT the threat of HRs, a real discussion could begin,

    Never underestimate stupid. Stupid is how reTHUGlicans win!

    by Mannie on Mon Nov 19, 2012 at 04:14:28 PM PST

    •  Interesting - Looks like you had a rough July (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Smoh

      I'm sorry to see that you got such a donut brigade on that thread.  It was really interesting for me to read what you were trying to say, and how people interpreted that.  It goes to a bigger point that HR's for people you disagree with are not very effective at encouraging healthy discussion and debate.

      Seems like one of the things that happens is we get caught in a false conflict between a critique of policy by specific factions of the US or Israeli government and whether or not the Jewish state has a right to exist.

      I think anyone here who would come and support abolishing the Jewish state or the Jewish People (or the Palestinians) might expect some HR's.  However, there is room for an independent policy debate about U.S.-middle east relations.

      Howard Dean will always be my president.

      by 4democracy on Mon Nov 19, 2012 at 04:35:40 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  fine, you want Kossacks to speak up? (5+ / 0-)

    I am a dyed-in-the-wool deep blue Democrat who has depended on DK for moral support 3 elections in a row. But I am also Jewish and strongly supportive of Israel, its right to exist and its right to self-defense, especially after a yearlong barrage of 800 rockets.

    The I/P flamewars here disgust me... they so often devolve into the hysterical half-truths and flagrant lies of the type heard at an International A.N.S.W.E.R. rally. They have NO place on a site, the state goal of which (according to Markos) is to elect Democrats.

    So flame away, guys, but just remember there are a lot of super libs who also love Israel and don't appreciate the deligitmization effort here. Criticism is OK, but not the kind that would make Israel a pariah state, a status it does NOT deserve.

    •  Yeah.. I see that conflict. (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Smoh, lgmcp

      Seems like in the effort to critique some aspect of US or Israeli policy people can lose the sensitivity to the issue of Israel's right to exist.  

      I would hope that people who try to make that case (that Israel doesn't have a right to exist) around here are confronted quickly.

      More complicated, I think, is the question of whether or not specific policy recommendations or critiques in and of themselves represent a statement that Israel doesn't have a right to exist.

      My comment on all of this, is that I don't want George W Bush's foreign policy team  from American Enterprise Institute continuing to fill the void of discussion on these issues.

      Howard Dean will always be my president.

      by 4democracy on Mon Nov 19, 2012 at 04:47:40 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  Do you know what some (0+ / 0-)

      of the pro Israel people on this website got up to - both in dairies and threatening emails.

      You say the I/P flamewars disgust you yet only produce an example from one  side. At least have the courage to type what you mean - that the P side of the debate disgusts you.

    •  Both sides are well-represented on this site. (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      lgmcp

      it fitfully blows, half conceals, half discloses

      by Addison on Mon Nov 19, 2012 at 04:57:13 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  Coincidentally... (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    4democracy, ferg

    I am taking a history seminar on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict this semester. I was expecting to be in a class surrounded by folks who were pro-Israeli, but I have been amazed by how willing people were to look at the evidence at come to their own conclusions.

    Israel actually started openly bombing Gaza again the day after our last class for a couple of weeks. I suspect we will end up talking about this next Monday when class resumes.

    However, though my experience at college has been largely positive in terms of being able to have productive discussion, my Facebook friends, on the other hand, have been an altogether different matter. It's amazing how people say they are living in a reality-based world, but as soon as the issue of Israel comes up, they just repeat propaganda and nonsense rather than posting links to articles supporting their points. And the absolute racism coming from so-called liberals is just appalling.

    Time is of no account with great thoughts, which are as fresh to-day as when they first passed through their authors' minds ages ago. - Samuel Smiles

    by moviemeister76 on Mon Nov 19, 2012 at 04:51:13 PM PST

  •  B/c it will immediately turn into a flame war. (0+ / 0-)

    There were some diaries on it here and that's how most of them ended up.

  •  I really don't understand Obama's (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    4democracy, MrAnon

    behavior here...he should be calling for a cease fire, and trying to call for some short term stop of the violence with a couple talks, or get Hillary Clinton to say that, or at least admit that it is tragic and the the violence is not the answer...instead he is  practically cheering Netanyahu on...

    it's weird...

    This bombing accomplishes nothing strategically for Israel anyway...

    •  Based on the number of secondary explosions I saw (0+ / 0-)

      on news coverage I wouldn't be so sure.

      Additionally, they got to test Iron Dome command and control under combat conditions. I'd say that had strategic value.

  •  I would love to know how to contribute to a (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    4democracy

    constructive solution.  

    Rather than posts back and forth about who is to blame, who started, etc., I would very much like to see a series of conversations that attempted to solve the problem.  One state Two states?  

    I would be happy to write letters, call my representatives, write my editor, contribute, if I had a better idea where the solutions lay.

    In my very humble opinion, I see two Semetic cultures who are good at holding grudges, with very long memories, in a back and forth large scale feud with no end in sight. As Shimon Peres said, better to burn the history books.  Can we have peace? How do we go about it?  Can the many knowledgeable and committed posters here set aside differences and find a better way?  

    Personally, I think we need a third party peacekeeping force initially.  Perhaps we should rebuild Gaza.

    I can not support self-deportation, genocide, ethnic cleansing, shoah, or anything like that.  Can we have a constructive conversation that looks for solutions not blame?  

  •  Msnbc use of proIsrael flack for Gaza commentary (0+ / 0-)

    msnbc, supposedly the voice of independent media, has a paid (or maybe he does it out of the goodness of his heart) flack Dennis Ross making outrageous total pro-Israel statements. we need to out

    the mole in msnbc.

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