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Wheaton's Law and the law of kos too.  So I'm writing what is a comment, basically, in a separate diary so I don't muck up the diary currently on the reclist and I'm sure it will quickly go down the Recent Diaries list without too many reads or recs.  But I have to say something because it's driving me bananas.

There's a reason that dogs are not allowed in cemeteries, whether there are mourners present or not, whether there are funerals present or not.  And I don't care whether the dog owner cleans up the poop in a plastic bag or if the dog only pees--dogs shouldn't be peeing on graves.  Period.  Whether other people are there or not.  And even if the dog owner keeps the dog on a leash the whole time and keeps it away from graves, the little old lady just arriving to the cemetery to mourn the recent passing of her husband isn't going to know the virtues of that particular dog owner.

Yes I know, squirrels and birds do their business on graves and I'm sure plenty of other wild animals too.  But wild animals don't have etiquette; people do.  It's a matter of respecting the dead.  In this particular situation it turned out very well, but it could have just as easily gone appallingly wrong.

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Comment Preferences

  •  So dKos is a Cemetary (5+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Yasuragi, IndieGuy, Cinnamon, Smoh, Miggles

    And I guess I'm a dog, because I peed on the grave of Joseph McCarthy and I'm proud to have done so.

    This aggression will not stand, man.

    by kaleidescope on Fri Nov 30, 2012 at 05:50:09 AM PST

  •  Really? (6+ / 0-)

    This is what you took away from the diary? I feel sad for you. But its your opinion, and you are entitled to it.

    "The next time everyone will pay for it equally, and there won't be any more Chosen Nations, or any Others. Poor bastards all." ~The Boomer Bible

    by just another vet on Fri Nov 30, 2012 at 05:53:01 AM PST

  •  Cordgrass ... (7+ / 0-)

    this might not end well.

    From time to time we all have a reaction to stuff we read that is, shall we say, a personal view.

    Occasionally it is beneficial to rush into print, but that would be a rare occasion :)

    You might consider this and decide whether or not you want to un-Publish this and come back with a Diary we can get behind, rather than one that simply appears to be a visceral reaction, and not helpful.

    It's just a view. I wouldn't dream of telling you what you can or cannot post.

    peace.

    I hope that the quality of debate will improve,
    but I fear we will remain Democrats.

    by twigg on Fri Nov 30, 2012 at 06:11:54 AM PST

  •  A valid opinion. But in (14+ / 0-)

    thinking it over, it doesn't resonate with me. My dogs are as part of nature as anything is, and if I want to bring them to a cemetery, outdoors, I think that's fine. The dead are dead, they do not exist. It is just a place to go for the living to remember the dead. And a dog simply being there is not "disrespectful" to the dead, any more than a dog is disrespectful to the living at a park, say. And I also thought about the difference you think there is between a dog peeing on a gravestone and a bird or squirrel, and I just don't think there is a difference.

    •  this has nothing to do with dogs (0+ / 0-)

      Dogs are, by nature, respectful creatures.  That's why once you train them that it's wrong to pee on the carpet, they wait to go outside.  

      The problem is with dog owners.  And of course the dead are dead and don't care.  But the whole point of cemeteries is not for the dead, but for their survivors to remember them.  And yes, often cemeteries are deserted.  But you never know when someone may show up to pay their respects.  A cemetery is a place of respect, a sacred spot.  You wouldn't let a dog pee on a neighbor's living room floor--I don't see the difference here.

      A park, on the other hand, is a perfect place to walk a dog (as long as the dog owner cleans up poop and keeps the dog leashed if there are others enjoying the park).  Even better are wild places like woods and empty fields.  It is a shame that we don't have more green areas in our cities and suburbs so that dog owners feel forced to use cemeteries to walk their dogs instead.

      •  I am fine with dogs (7+ / 0-)

        peeing on my grave, and I know my family feels the same about their graves. Not everyone agrees with you that a peeing dog is a disrespectful thing. The equivalence to peeing on a living room floor is bizarre to me; indoors where people live or on the grass, outside? The bottom line is that i wouldnt want to be buried somewhere where dogs are not welcome, and you shouldn't assume that not to be the case.

        •  Then have your remains scattered in a public park (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          nookular

          or something.  Every cemetery I have been to has big signs clearly saying that dogs are not allowed.

          So you would have no problem having your spouse watch a dog take a dump on your fresh grave?

          •  Quite the opposite. (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Wordsinthewind, Cinnamon

            It would sadden me to know that no dogs are alloweed somewhere just so i can be dead there. And if a dog craps over my grave, that is a natural fertilizer and hopefully pretty plants or grass will grow all the better for it. You obviously have a personal problem with animals, but you shouldnt assume your feelings are universal. I would bring a dog into a cemetery any time, and assume that people there probably are cool with it. My guess is that your feelings, while valid, are in the minority.

            •  I have no personal problems with animals (0+ / 0-)

              I have had several dogs and cats as pets in my lifetime, although not recently because I rent.  My issue is proper behavior in cemeteries and around funerals, not dogs.  It is the questionable judgment of dog owners that I object to, not the dogs themselves.

              •  Yes, i understand that. (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Wordsinthewind, Cinnamon

                But your problem is that you think you know the one true definition of "proper behavior". There is none when it comes to this issue. Few people care if dogs poop on graves or pee on tombstones. Especially with all of the terrible things happening in the world today, how can you say that this is even worth getting upset about?

          •  you've not been to the same ones as I (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Cinnamon

            nor seen, as I have, a dog lying on its master's or mistress' grave.

            You're entitled to your own opinion, cordgrass, but not your own facts.

            LBJ, Lady Bird, Anne Richards, Barbara Jordan, Sully Sullenberger, Ike, Drew Brees, Molly Ivins --Texas is no Bush league! -7.50,-5.59

            by BlackSheep1 on Fri Nov 30, 2012 at 05:12:35 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

        •  I would encourage any and all dog/people (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Cinnamon, misterwade

          peeing on my grave.  I like everyone to be comfortable.  Though I would never take up land with my remains.  My body goes to a medical school where it will be cremated.  My husband or children may do whatever they like after that.

          Cats are better than therapy, and I'm a therapist.

          by Smoh on Fri Nov 30, 2012 at 08:36:19 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

  •  I don't feel quite as strongly (5+ / 0-)

    as you do, but I didn't tip or rec the other diary just because it didn't sit well with me, either.  When I read "the "park" is a cemetery..." I thought, "Really?"  Cuz a cemetery is not a park.  

    Can you call yourself a real liberal if you aren't reading driftglass?

    by CJB on Fri Nov 30, 2012 at 06:35:46 AM PST

  •  Can't say I particularly agree with you. But. (13+ / 0-)

    You should be commended for not adding this comment into the other diary.  Rare bit of self-restraint, there.

    T/R'ed for civility.

  •  I see a big difference between a cemetery and (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Cinnamon, just another vet, Smoh, wader

    "a neighbor's living room floor".

    Although I think I understand your point, this is NOT an issue with me.

    "I believe more women should carry guns. I believe armed women will make the world a better place. Women need to come to think of themselves not as victims but as dangerous." Anna Pigeon

    by glorificus on Fri Nov 30, 2012 at 06:39:04 AM PST

  •  The ocean is a graveyard (13+ / 0-)

    for millions of people over history, from those lost at sea, to those buried at sea, to those who have their ashes scattered at sea.... do you grant it the same level of respect? Never tinkled in the waves while swimming, instead of trudging all the way home (or to a public bathroom) during a day at the beach?

    When I die,  if anyone's going to come by to visit my grave, if they were missing me that much that they come all the way out to where I'm buried, I hope that they bring their dog along for love and company. And if it fertilizes the daisies I'll be pushing up, so much the better. I hope the dog can sense my spirit on the other side of the veil, and help me to comfort my loved one when they are grieving. And as for respecting me? (Snort) I'm a mother. I've been peed-on, pooped-on, puked-on, snotted-on,  bled-on... why should the dirt over my bones get more respect just because  I'm dead, than I ever got in life?

    Luminous beings are we, not this crude matter. ~ Yoda Political Compass: -8.50, -6.46

    by Cinnamon on Fri Nov 30, 2012 at 07:01:09 AM PST

    •  Perfect! (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Cinnamon, BlackSheep1

      Cats are better than therapy, and I'm a therapist.

      by Smoh on Fri Nov 30, 2012 at 08:38:12 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  Why do we have cemeteries? (0+ / 0-)

      Answer me that, and I will answer your question about the ocean.  Why do people mark where the dead are buried?

      Of course many people choose to be cremated and scattered in various places and that's cool too.  Obviously those people don't care about having a special place set apart for respectful grieving, and frankly I will probably choose that option when my time comes.

      That does not negate my point, however.

      •  We have cemetries for Health reasons (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Wordsinthewind

        their original function was so that rotting corpses don't spread disease to the living in cities. The first cemetery in America wasn't created until 1831.

        Originally, they were used asrecreational space as well as for burying the dead.

        But you asked "why" so, from the same article...

        The old church burial grounds were beginning to be seen as inadequate, dangerous, crowded, expensive to maintain, and as carriers of disease. Thousands of burials had taken place on very small plots of ground; these places filled up. You often had burials five or six coffins deep. Sometimes the walls would break down during floods—it was actually rather horrible—coffins would break open and bodies would spill out into the street. During times of epidemics—yellow fever, cholera—cemeteries were seen as centers for the gathering of these diseases and their dissemination. At the same time, cities are becoming more crowded, real estate prices are rising. As the economy was growing, it also came to be the fact that Americans wanted to provide better amenities for their citizens. Cemeteries were seen as the last great necessity. By moving the dead out of the city center to places like Brooklyn and Cambridge, these "rural cemeteries" allowed for much larger burial grounds that also removed the dead from the immediate realm of the living.
        Now, as for your statement, "Obviously those people don't care about having a special place set apart for respectful grieving" ... that is an illogical, and rather callous, assumption on your part.  Plenty of people who want their ashes scattered specify where they would like them scattered, for the very purpose of wanting their loved ones to have a "special place" for remembering them, and especially when ashes are scattered from a beach or in water, the intention is that the memorial incorporate the joy of living and the memories shared, not just stiff solemnity and "respectability".

        Luminous beings are we, not this crude matter. ~ Yoda Political Compass: -8.50, -6.46

        by Cinnamon on Fri Nov 30, 2012 at 01:46:16 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  there is a difference between a recreational space (0+ / 0-)

          and a toilet.  

          •  Do you think the horses from 1831 (0+ / 0-)

            until the Automobile age held their bowels and bladders while they pulled the carriages and coffin wagons  into the cemeteries? Do you actually think anyone gave it a second thought? How about when there are state funerals in modern times? Kennedy's casket was pulled by horses.

            Luminous beings are we, not this crude matter. ~ Yoda Political Compass: -8.50, -6.46

            by Cinnamon on Fri Nov 30, 2012 at 06:30:16 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  the horses were not trampling over the graves (0+ / 0-)

              they pooped on the roads

              •  Keep telling yourself that (0+ / 0-)

                And then go look at the photograph of a funeral with the horse-drawn hearse 3/4th the way down on the page here.

                They were used to bring the caskets right up to the grave sites,  which means that if the grave was 100 yards in from the road, the horses drew the wagon or funeral carriage in that close as well, over the grass and the other graves. In that photo, the horse is standing on the field, not the road, while far behind the carriage are other carriages and horses.

                Just like anyone swimming in (or those laid to rest in) a natural body of water is swimming in the feces of the fish, amphibians, waterfowl, and local animals.  Literally billions of gallons of human sewage has been pumped directly into the ocean for decades. And, no, it doesn't decompose out on the ocean floor as originally expected, so there are recreation areas that are like swimming in toilets, and old poop from the 1950's is still chillin' off the Jersey shore.

                I don't mean to be unkind by pointing these facts out, but your level of intensity on the subject is pretty evident. You might want to discuss your feelings with a supportive therapist who could help you deal with the grief and why you feel the need that a controlled, "poop-free zone of respect" around the dead is so important to you.

                Luminous beings are we, not this crude matter. ~ Yoda Political Compass: -8.50, -6.46

                by Cinnamon on Fri Nov 30, 2012 at 08:38:04 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

  •  You have the makings of a legitimate point here (8+ / 0-)

    ...but your execution is terribly off-base.

    First of all, you're wrong about dogs being legally banned from cemetaries. My stepfather is 94 years old and legally blind. He used to have a leader dog (who recently passed away, I'm afraid) and being in his 90's has had to attend more funerals than I care to count. Obviously he brought his guide dog to them.

    Secondly, what if the widow/widower/father/son/etc of the deceased is the one who brings the beloved family pet? In some cases the dog may have been the closest friend/companion of the person who died. Obviously they're allowed to bring them if they wish.

    Now, I do agree that they should be kept on a leash. You don't want the dog digging up flowers on a grave or, as you noted, peeing on a gravestone, and if someone brings a dog to a cemetery they should be respectful enough to make sure they stick to the trees or shrubs, cleans up the poop and so forth.

    Assuming they do so, however, your point is invalid.

  •  In the grand scheme of things (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Miggles, Wordsinthewind

    this is a concern that merits no attention.

    That is all.

  •  Get goosed ! (0+ / 0-)
    But the Canada geese are the main attraction. Hundreds gather there

    "Drop the name-calling." Meteor Blades 2/4/11

    by indycam on Fri Nov 30, 2012 at 09:47:00 AM PST

  •  Sigh...really? This IS being a dick. n/t (0+ / 0-)
  •  I would guess that my Mom (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    BlackSheep1

    would have no problem if a silly dog peed on her headstone in the cemetery.

    I'd have to wash it off eventually, so as long as it's not a constant issue I wouldn't mind.

    As in most public settings, a leash would seem recommended to minimize potential damage to and  from these great animals.

    "So, please stay where you are. Don't move and don't panic. Don't take off your shoes! Jobs is on the way."

    by wader on Fri Nov 30, 2012 at 10:44:00 AM PST

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