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Job creation graph
The Bureau of Labor Statistics reports that the economy added 146,000 jobs in November, with the official unemployment rate falling to 7.7 percent, the lowest since 2008. However, the 350,000 people who dropped out of the labor force are a key reason the unemployment rate fell. Previously reported jobs numbers for October and September were revised downward, with October revised to 138,000 from 171,000 and September revised to 132,000 from 148,000. (Jack Welch is, presumably, outraged.)

Huccording to the BLS, "Our analysis suggests that Hurricane Sandy did not substantively impact the national employment and unemployment estimates for November."

According to the BLS, 12 million people were officially unemployed. The labor force participation rate, which grew by 0.2 percent in October, shrank back by 0.2 percent in November to 63.6 percent, while the employment-population ratio edged down from 58.8 percent to 57.7 percent.

A broader measure of unemployment, called the U6, which includes not just technically unemployed people but those who are underemployed and those who say they want a job but aren't counted in the workforce, fell from 14.6 percent to 14.4 percent.

Originally posted to Daily Kos Labor on Fri Dec 07, 2012 at 05:59 AM PST.

Also republished by Daily Kos and ClassWarfare Newsletter: WallStreet VS Working Class Global Occupy movement.

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Comment Preferences

  •  points for "the official unemployment rate" (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Vatexia, figbash, nextstep

    So much more honest than saying that unemployment has gone down, giving the odd movement of the numbers lately.

    Although -- I need to take a look at the numbers, just in case unemployment actually did go down.

    LG: You know what? You got spunk. MR: Well, Yes... LG: I hate spunk!

    by dinotrac on Fri Dec 07, 2012 at 06:05:50 AM PST

    •  participation rate (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Dr Swig Mcjigger, askew, Lawrence

      This has been going down as the baby boomers start to retire--most of the decrease is thus demographic.  Not only is this a good report, it kinda shows that the fiscal "cliff" fear is more imagined than real.  The right wing media loves to report everything as terrorism because they are diverting attention from their treasonous "reportage."

      Apres Bush, le deluge.

      by melvynny on Fri Dec 07, 2012 at 06:28:22 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Baby boomers not retiring, young dropping out (4+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        BradyB, bewild, dinotrac, splintersawry

        The decline in labor participation is worse than it looks in that the decline is mainly from younger workers dropping out of the workforce, even while older workers stay in the workforce longer than in the past.

        See Washington Post - "The young are leaving the labor force, the old are flocking to it"

        Namely, the labor force participation rate among young people aged 16 to 24 has plummeted much faster than that of other age groups, even as the participation rate among the oldest Americans has risen to record levels.
        The structure of how the labor participation rate is falling is in the worst way for the economy longer term.

        Older workers stay working longer for a range of reasons including people do not have the financial means to retire, and a lower share of older worker jobs are physically demanding.

        The most important way to protect the environment is not to have more than one child.

        by nextstep on Fri Dec 07, 2012 at 07:09:11 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  Maybe wealthy boomers. (0+ / 0-)

        I know way too many people who can only dream of retiring now, and way too many people who are "independent" because they can't find jobs.

        LG: You know what? You got spunk. MR: Well, Yes... LG: I hate spunk!

        by dinotrac on Fri Dec 07, 2012 at 08:00:22 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Some people have no choice (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          dinotrac, melvynny

          If  not wealthy. They can't find a job that they can do at their age and they are eligible for social security.

          •  social security (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Dr Swig Mcjigger

            The original safety net--one that angry white men will now learn to appreciate.

            Apres Bush, le deluge.

            by melvynny on Fri Dec 07, 2012 at 08:16:20 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  The already appreciate it (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              melvynny

              They accept it gladly and would scream if it were cut. But for some reason lots of them vote for guys who want to cut, gut or even eliminate it. For all the people who say that S.S. is "bankrupting us", I've yet to hear of one who turned his or her check back to the Treasury to reduce the deficit.

              •  I can think of several reasons why that might (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Dr Swig Mcjigger

                be true.

                Start with the fact that SS doesn't pay a lot of money to people who are median wage or above, especially in light of money paid in over a lifetime of work.

                But that might be secondary to the fact that we tend to accumulate children and grandchildren as we get older, and hope that they do well in their lives.

                Democrats tend to poo-poo any notion that SS could ever be in fiscal trouble -- worse, they like to point out that bankruptcy can be avoided simply by cutting benefits.  Given that benefits are not enormous in the first place, that is not a comforting mantra.

                LG: You know what? You got spunk. MR: Well, Yes... LG: I hate spunk!

                by dinotrac on Fri Dec 07, 2012 at 08:30:04 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

      •  About 1/3 to 1/2 of the drop-off in... (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Dr Swig Mcjigger, melvynny

        ...the labor force is from baby boomers retiring. See here and here.

        Don't tell me what you believe, show me what you do and I will tell you what you believe.

        by Meteor Blades on Fri Dec 07, 2012 at 08:08:07 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Thanks (0+ / 0-)

          The WAPO article cited above does not say that Baby Boomers are not retiring. It says that more older workers are staying in the workforce longer than in the past. Its not possible for such a large cohort to not retire. Many boomers are reasonably well off and others less so, but may not have a choice but to retire to inability to find work or their inability to do work.

        •  also (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Dr Swig Mcjigger

          The older worker has a much harder time finding a new job--not only do employers discriminate for age, they can get a younger person cheaper.  Many boomers were 2 income families--now one income families.  This was common before, but now the family house is no longer also the retirement savings account.  Society ignores this group because they are least likely to commit crimes--I expect the suicide rate to increase.

          Apres Bush, le deluge.

          by melvynny on Fri Dec 07, 2012 at 08:14:12 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

    •  These numbers, however temporary (0+ / 0-)

      (complete numbers won't come out for another couple weeks and seasonal-adjustments won't become evident until after the first of the year) are sure to spawn some wacky rationalizations from Republicans on how much better the numbers would have been if Romney had won the election and promised to implement the Ryan "plan" - no logic needed.  Should be entertaining to see how they spin this.

      "In this world of sin and sorrow there is always something to be thankful for; as for me, I rejoice that I am not a Republican." - H. L. Mencken

      by SueDe on Fri Dec 07, 2012 at 07:04:20 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Whether or not the GOP uses it's imagination, (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        SueDe

        the long trend of dismal numbers continues.

        The so-called improvement over 2009 may just be a matter of slimmed-down companies reaching their bare bones operating strengths.  All those people who were let go are not yet working.

        LG: You know what? You got spunk. MR: Well, Yes... LG: I hate spunk!

        by dinotrac on Fri Dec 07, 2012 at 08:02:47 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  True - Republicans' answer? (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          dinotrac

          "Let's cut off their unemployment benefits and food stamps.  That should motivate them to get off the couch and take a low-wage job with no benefits."

          As Krugman makes clear today, job creation should be Washington's main priority in addressing deficit reduction.

          "In this world of sin and sorrow there is always something to be thankful for; as for me, I rejoice that I am not a Republican." - H. L. Mencken

          by SueDe on Fri Dec 07, 2012 at 10:07:00 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  the two go hand-in-hand (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            SueDe

            Unemployed people tend not to pay a lot of taxes but need a lot of services.

            LG: You know what? You got spunk. MR: Well, Yes... LG: I hate spunk!

            by dinotrac on Fri Dec 07, 2012 at 11:20:18 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  Hence a large chunk of the deficit. (0+ / 0-)

              The best way to start bringing down the deficit is to put people to work, not to cut the services that keep them barely hanging on and blaming them for being unproductive "takers."

              "In this world of sin and sorrow there is always something to be thankful for; as for me, I rejoice that I am not a Republican." - H. L. Mencken

              by SueDe on Fri Dec 07, 2012 at 03:17:36 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  Unfortunately, there hasn't been much emphasis (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                SueDe

                on putting people to work.

                It remains hard for me to believe that anybody in DC actually cares about that.

                LG: You know what? You got spunk. MR: Well, Yes... LG: I hate spunk!

                by dinotrac on Fri Dec 07, 2012 at 05:29:45 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  It should be known pretty well by now (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  dinotrac

                  that congress doesn't give a flying rat about the deficit.  If they did, they would tackle the challenge of putting people to work which would save federal $$ from two fronts.  The problem is that there is no political posturing to be had from doing so, and no leverage for beating the other side to a bloody pulp.

                  "In this world of sin and sorrow there is always something to be thankful for; as for me, I rejoice that I am not a Republican." - H. L. Mencken

                  by SueDe on Fri Dec 07, 2012 at 09:10:07 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Nobody has given a flip that I can tell. (0+ / 0-)

                    But, you're right.
                    Congress has done squat since the crash.

                    Well -- there was that $900 billion or so thrown at Democratic pet interests, but that was about payback, not jobs.

                    LG: You know what? You got spunk. MR: Well, Yes... LG: I hate spunk!

                    by dinotrac on Sat Dec 08, 2012 at 04:20:14 AM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Democratic pet interests? (0+ / 0-)

                      Like infrastructure spending and aid to the states?  Or are you referring to the 1/3 of the stimulus spent on tax cuts which were included as a concession to Republicans (who refused to support the bill anyway)?

                      "In this world of sin and sorrow there is always something to be thankful for; as for me, I rejoice that I am not a Republican." - H. L. Mencken

                      by SueDe on Sat Dec 08, 2012 at 07:53:16 AM PST

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  and so much money to research (0+ / 0-)

                        that people voiced serious concern at policing scientific fraud in its wake?

                        But yes on  the spending, no on the tax cuts.
                        That was a Republican pet interest.

                        The bill was sold, but not designed, as a stimulus.

                        LG: You know what? You got spunk. MR: Well, Yes... LG: I hate spunk!

                        by dinotrac on Sat Dec 08, 2012 at 08:29:27 AM PST

                        [ Parent ]

    •  Just for the record, we've been calling it the... (0+ / 0-)

      ...we have been calling it "the official unemployment rate" for 3 1/2 years. Here's an example from May 2011.

      Don't tell me what you believe, show me what you do and I will tell you what you believe.

      by Meteor Blades on Fri Dec 07, 2012 at 08:23:26 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  Fun with numbers!! (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    jmwalters, ColoTim

    Too bad hiring picked up due to seasonal factors....

    Once we go over the "cliff", and Europe collapses, then we will see the "bottom".....just my views....

    •  Pessimistic but very probable..... (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      ColoTim
    •  Rubbish! (10+ / 0-)
      Too bad hiring picked up due to seasonal factors....
      BLS monthly numbers ARE seasonally adjusted!

      Since every November/December retailers HIRE extra people for the holiday rush, and have been doing so since before the BLS was invented, the numbers ARE seasonally adjusted for this!

      AND, since every January retailers RELEASE the extra peole they hired for the holiday rush, and have been doing so since before the BLS was invented, the numbers ARE seasonally adjusted for this as well!

      Beyond this factual deficiency, I find your views on the "cliff", and Europe and "bottom" to be....lacking....

      WineRev

      "God has given wine to gladden the hearts of people." Psalm 104:15

      by WineRev on Fri Dec 07, 2012 at 06:55:46 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  WineRev!!! Been awhile... (0+ / 0-)

        Things quiet up in ice fishing land?

        I enjoy decisive wins, but miss your cliffhanger stories. :-)

        •  Pretty quiet. (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Lawrence, Denver11

          The MN GOP has bills 10X the size of their cash on hand and were almost evicted from their headquarters for being behind on the rent.
          They lost both houses of the MN lege in November, giving the Democrats one-party control of both Houses PLUS the Governor for the first time since 1990.
          The Ron Paul wing may take over the Party Chair spot in April.

          The Franken Recount book is out (Recounting Minnesota, Amazon of course) in case you miss it too much.
          My novel is also out (Encampment; Amazon or www.carleeman.com).
          The "pre-quel" to the novel is approaching the end of writing the first draft.
          The iApp I helped with (and invested in) went live in May (AffirMe, iTunes store under Lifestyles, after all the "affirmAtions") and is selling at almost (gasp!) 0.37/day, so I'll be overtaking George Soros in net wealth in another 261 years....

          Happy NOT to be writing cliffhanger diaries I must admit.

          Shalom.

          "God has given wine to gladden the hearts of people." Psalm 104:15

          by WineRev on Fri Dec 07, 2012 at 08:58:35 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

    •  I fear it's not going to get too much better (0+ / 0-)

      Corporations are running record profits.  They've discovered they can earn more with less workforce.

      "Work longer and harder, you lucky to have this job!"

      Also, I can kill you with my brain.

      by Puffin on Fri Dec 07, 2012 at 07:05:47 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  Ah man, I gotta read more carefully.More points. (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    ColoTim

    Nice and direct summary.

    I'm glad the elections are over.  Signal to noise goes up so much after election day.

    LG: You know what? You got spunk. MR: Well, Yes... LG: I hate spunk!

    by dinotrac on Fri Dec 07, 2012 at 06:08:23 AM PST

  •  So this is almost 2X what was expected? (9+ / 0-)

    Great trend but we have a long way to go and we have to increase those monthly numbers.

    Hopefully the monied folks who have been sitting on cash because of Obama poutrage will get back in the game. 4 years out is a break, 8 years out is out.

    •  My local newscast this morning said it would be (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      citizenx, sethtriggs

      fewer than 100K jobs and put the blame on uncertainty over the fiscal cliff.  They actually are closer to what I expected than this report, and that 7.7% is going to change once we hit January if all those extended unemployment benefits end.  When people fall off those benefit rolls, will they also drop off this measure?

      •  unemployment benefits (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        ColoTim

        does not affect the measure.

        from BLS FAQ:

        Is the count of unemployed persons limited to just those people receiving unemployment insurance benefits?

        No; the estimate of unemployment is based on a monthly sample survey of households.  All persons who are without jobs and are actively seeking and available to work are  included among the unemployed. (People on temporary layoff are included even if  they do not actively seek work.) There is no requirement or question relating to unemployment insurance benefits in the monthly survey

  •  Would love (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    ColoTim, sethtriggs

    To see gov't increase taxes and give the money to the states to hire back some public employees.

    The private sector is setting on the money and I think it would be a good idea.

  •  Don't get too exicited (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    ColoTim

    The details don't look as good as the headline.

    1. Huge rise in clothing store employment! +33K. Really???? Now at the second highest level in last 10 years. Really????

    2. Big rise in drinking establishments/gambling etc. I'm sure that is good for the economy and good high paying jobs (maybe if you count the tips). Again ... Really????

    3. Goods producing sectors lost jobs!!! -22K That isn't good.

    There's room at the top they're telling you still But first you must learn how to smile as you kill If you want to be like the folks on the hill

    by taonow on Fri Dec 07, 2012 at 06:19:07 AM PST

    •  The loss in manufacturing jobs in Nov. pretty (5+ / 0-)

      much is directly attributable to Sandy.

      "A candle loses nothing by lighting another candle" - Mohammed Nabbous, R.I.P.

      by Lawrence on Fri Dec 07, 2012 at 06:23:11 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  There is this thing (7+ / 0-)

      called Christmas - and clothing stores maybe hiring ahead of this.

      Every report that beats expectations bring out bears who look at variances and say: the data is wrong!!!  

      This was better than anyone expected, and we appear no closer to recession now than we were a year ago, despite many predictions to the contrary.

      Still - not great numbers.  Not bad numbers.

      The bitter truth of deep inequality has been disguised by an era of cheap imported goods and the anyone-can-make-it celebrity myth - Polly Toynbee

      by fladem on Fri Dec 07, 2012 at 06:39:28 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  Indicators that the overall economy is improving (6+ / 0-)

      I look at things like increases in clothing store employment, and the overall increase in retail employment, as a good indicator that retailers are seeing enough of an improving economy that they're hiring.  Same thing with employment in leisure and hospitality sectors like drinking establishments.  People spend more in these establishments when they have more confidence in their own economic circumstances.  I view increases in employment in these sectors as proxy indicators for an overall improvement in the economy.  People don't spend money on luxuries like going out to eat if they are worried about paying for necessities like housing, food, and utilities.

  •  350,000 leaving the work force... (11+ / 0-)

    Well, keep in mind that most of that number represents boomers retiring (around 10,000/day).

    The work force is shrinking. And once PPACA is in place, CBO estimates that around 800,000 will leave earlier, because there are many people 50+ who work ONLY for affordable insurance, and will then have other options.

    •  Decline in participation is from younger workers (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      winsock

      leaving the workforce - which is the worst place to see this for the economy longer term and short term. What you wrote would be normally expected given the US age distribution, but the opposite is.   Older workers are staying in the workforce longer.  See my comment above.

      The most important way to protect the environment is not to have more than one child.

      by nextstep on Fri Dec 07, 2012 at 07:19:16 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Then how do you (0+ / 0-)

        explain this: http://pewresearch.org/...

        Are retirees not counted in those numbers, and if they are, even if many do not retire at 65, would they not constitute the majority of, say, this month's numbers?

        •  When looking at why the labor participation (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          splintersawry

          rate has been declining looking at which age groups have been increasing participation and which have been decreasing participation is important.

          Look at at the bar chart   labeled "Change in Labor Force Participation since January 2008 by Age". http://www.washingtonpost.com/...

          The very large decline in younger worker participation and workers in their 50's have been the largest contributors to the decline, while older workers effect would be to push participation up.  

          Retirees are counted in the participation rate in the denominator.

          The most important way to protect the environment is not to have more than one child.

          by nextstep on Fri Dec 07, 2012 at 08:49:18 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

    •  Your source for "most of that number... (0+ / 0-)

      ...represents boomers retiring"?

      Economic Policy Institutes says one-third of the drop in labor force can be attributed to that. Chicago Fed says one-half. NO SOURCE says "most."

      Don't tell me what you believe, show me what you do and I will tell you what you believe.

      by Meteor Blades on Fri Dec 07, 2012 at 08:15:30 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Not a source, an extrapolation (0+ / 0-)

        If 10,000 reach 65 each day, that's 300,000/month. Not all will retire at 65, and some are already retired, of course, but I'm merely making an educated guess that many of those 300,000 are retiring at 65 (or for those retiring before 65, they would also be included in my guess, right?).

        My source for the number hitting 65 is PEW, as shown in subsequent post.

        •  Two issues: To get full retirement benefits... (0+ / 0-)

          ...you have to wait until you are 66.

          Don't tell me what you believe, show me what you do and I will tell you what you believe.

          by Meteor Blades on Fri Dec 07, 2012 at 08:44:44 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  65, 66...the number is almost the same...eom. (0+ / 0-)
            •  That's the kind of approach to statistics,... (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              mimi, splintersawry

              ...like your overall claims the baby boomers are most of the reason for the decline in the labor force, that makes mash of the true situation.

              We have a massive unemployment problem, we have a massive wage stagnation problem, and we seem to have a massive disconnect between these realities and many people on the left who are unwilling to admit this.

              Don't tell me what you believe, show me what you do and I will tell you what you believe.

              by Meteor Blades on Fri Dec 07, 2012 at 09:26:06 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  So tell me... (0+ / 0-)

                If 10,000 baby boomers reached 65 last month, how many of them, or other retirees, are included in the number of people leaving the job market? Are there hard numbers to be found on this?

                Because, from reading the diaries here, I find the counter-argument as specious as the charts showing less participation among 16-24-year-olds. Of course there's less participation among that group. Very few 16-year-olds work now or even want to.

                And college participation is way up, and once again, it doesn't surprise me that fewer kids in college also have jobs. College went from being something you paid for as you went along, to a giant credit card debt.

                And I'm not unwilling to admit anything - did you even read my other post about the massive problems we have?

                •  I did see your comment and I recced it... (0+ / 0-)

                  ...But you're again making a claim that does not stand up to scrutiny: that college participation is way up. Since the Great Recession, as the Economic Policy Institute has pointed out, there was not a meaningful rise in college participation, so that cannot be a reason for the plunge in the labor force participation rate of young people.

                  The National Center for Education Statistics recently reported that undergraduate enrollment fell with fall enrollment of 2011, from 18.65 million to 18.62 million, the first time since 1996. Graduate school enrollment likewise fell. Whether this is a trend obviously won't be clear until we have another year or two of data.

                  As for the unemployment of 16-19 year olds, it obviously has never been as high as it is for older cohorts, but it was significantly higher for young h.s. grads (17-20) before the recession began:

                  Don't tell me what you believe, show me what you do and I will tell you what you believe.

                  by Meteor Blades on Fri Dec 07, 2012 at 04:21:21 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

        •  Just a thought... (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Dr Swig Mcjigger

          Which may mean nothing...but perhaps some people are not retiring because they like to work. My anecdotal evidence would be my parents. Dad retired at 72  and Mom at 70. My wife works with someone pushing 80.

          I'm an adjunct professor /artist. Personally I have no desire to retire.

          Obama 2012 http://whatthefuckhasobamadonesofar.com/

          by jiffypop on Fri Dec 07, 2012 at 11:30:37 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

  •  If the economy is improving (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    nextstep, splintersawry

    then why are people leaving the workforce? It makes no sense.

     And no, it isn't because everyone is retiring. I've already proven that idea wrong in past diaries.

    ¡Cállate o despertarás la izquierda! - protest sign in Spain

    by gjohnsit on Fri Dec 07, 2012 at 06:21:08 AM PST

    •  working under the table (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      ColoTim

      or starting their own business would be the choice of some. I know a few people like that.  Becoming a single salary household is another.  Sometimes the amount saved on daycare is enough for people to squeak by on one salary for a time.

      Loyalty to petrified opinion never yet broke a chain or freed a human soul in this world--and never will. Mark Twain

      by whoknu on Fri Dec 07, 2012 at 06:25:46 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Self employment does not reduce participation. (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        gjohnsit, winsock, splintersawry

        The most important way to protect the environment is not to have more than one child.

        by nextstep on Fri Dec 07, 2012 at 07:20:29 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  It does if it's off-the-books (0+ / 0-)

          E-bay sellers, pizza delivery guys, house-cleaners, plowing, mowing...many people are off-the-books. They don't have a "job," but they do. There is a huge underground economy, which is to be expected, given that entry-level jobs pay like crap and often don't provide any real perks anyway.

          I'll bet you right now that there are 7-figures worth of people working under-the-table, including many who are also on unemployment. And let me be clear, considering the current stacking of the deck, I don't blame them.

          •  If that's where people are going (0+ / 0-)

            then we have a big problem with the economy.

            ¡Cállate o despertarás la izquierda! - protest sign in Spain

            by gjohnsit on Fri Dec 07, 2012 at 08:11:10 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  Absolutely we do! (4+ / 0-)

              Please do not misinterpret my posts as "rosy."

              I was watching S.E. Cupp on "The Cycle" (can't stand her, consider her the most vacuous parrot on TV) grilling the nurse who led the bus tour about people on food stamps, to which the nurse promptly explained that MINIMUM WAGE used to place 40-hour workers ABOVE the poverty level.

              Yeah, we have a huge problem.

              The Republicans like to claim that government programs present a moral hazard - people getting help won't work as hard to become self-reliant, so they claim.

              They're half right. The moral hazard is to EMPLOYERS, who don't pay living wage, which is then subsidized by government programs like food stamps.

              Minimum wage should be poverty level, at least. Throw in more progressive break points for income levels, both to fund the government and, at the very top, to discourage hoarding....

              And yes, let's have a union movement in this country. No person working a 40-hour week should be without health care (hell, no American, no human being, should be without universal, cradle-to-grave health care), or enough money to actually live in this country.

              I made 5 bucks an hour as a bouncer in a nightclub in 1980. I made 8 bucks an hour working as a gopher in a print shop at the same time. That's more than $15.hour and $24/hour respectively in today's dollar, which is less than 1/3rd a 1980 dollar. There's our problem, right there.

    •  You have proven no such thing (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      jiffypop, Lawrence, askew

      for the very good reason that you are wrong about that.

      Much of the reason for decline in the labor force is demographics.

      Some of it isn't.

      The bitter truth of deep inequality has been disguised by an era of cheap imported goods and the anyone-can-make-it celebrity myth - Polly Toynbee

      by fladem on Fri Dec 07, 2012 at 06:41:05 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Get your tickets for the pie fight! (0+ / 0-)

        Just channeling Mel Brooks' Blazing Saddles.  Wasn't that Dom DeLuise with that line?

      •  Actually I have (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        winsock, BradyB

        More than once.
        This was the last time I proved it.
          And this was the most complete example of me proving it.

          If you have evidence and facts that show otherwise, then post them. Or else man-up and admit that you might be wrong.

        For more information I also posted this.

        ¡Cállate o despertarás la izquierda! - protest sign in Spain

        by gjohnsit on Fri Dec 07, 2012 at 07:28:59 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  And as for just the November numbers (0+ / 0-)

        Check out this chart.

        ¡Cállate o despertarás la izquierda! - protest sign in Spain

        by gjohnsit on Fri Dec 07, 2012 at 07:46:55 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Calculated Risk (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Dr Swig Mcjigger

          Has gone through these numbers in great detail.  As he noted this morning:
          "The participation rate is well below the 66% to 67% rate that was normal over the last 20 years, although most of the recent decline is due to demographics."

          Read more at http://www.calculatedriskblog.com/...

          The bitter truth of deep inequality has been disguised by an era of cheap imported goods and the anyone-can-make-it celebrity myth - Polly Toynbee

          by fladem on Fri Dec 07, 2012 at 07:57:37 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  That's a quote (0+ / 0-)

            But he hasn't backed up that statement yet.

            I have.

            ¡Cállate o despertarás la izquierda! - protest sign in Spain

            by gjohnsit on Fri Dec 07, 2012 at 08:14:55 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

          •  I'm honestly curious (0+ / 0-)

            how Calculated Risk is going to call the declining labor force participation rate with demographics, when you consider this

            ¡Cállate o despertarás la izquierda! - protest sign in Spain

            by gjohnsit on Fri Dec 07, 2012 at 08:38:21 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  One case is here (0+ / 0-)

              http://www.calculatedriskblog.com/...

              But the literature is full of analysis on this topic.  See also a detailed paper by the San Francisco Fed.

              Honestly, if you are claiming that demographics aren't behind much of this you plain flat do not know what you are talking about.

              The bitter truth of deep inequality has been disguised by an era of cheap imported goods and the anyone-can-make-it celebrity myth - Polly Toynbee

              by fladem on Fri Dec 07, 2012 at 09:09:22 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  I've read it (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                splintersawry

                and its obvious that you haven't.

                   First of all, the article is two years old. Why is that important?
                  Because some of the data he uses is as far back as 2007 (i.e. BEFORE the recent radical drop).
                  Secondly, he openly speculates at what is happening (i.e. he doesn't PROVE anything).

                  What is also obvious is that you haven't read the diaries that I've written.
                  Until you do that then there is no point in debating further.

                ¡Cállate o despertarás la izquierda! - protest sign in Spain

                by gjohnsit on Fri Dec 07, 2012 at 12:19:48 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

      •  Cut out the leading edge of baby boomers... (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        gjohnsit

        ...and you still have a big problem in labor force participation among 25-54 year olds. At the beginning of the recession, it was 80%. Now it's 76% and has only risen a point and a half since the bottom of the trough in December 2009.

        Don't tell me what you believe, show me what you do and I will tell you what you believe.

        by Meteor Blades on Fri Dec 07, 2012 at 08:35:42 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

    •  statistical noise (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      askew

      Workforce participation numbers for the year:
      2012-01-01  63.7
      2012-02-01  63.9
      2012-03-01  63.8
      2012-04-01  63.6
      2012-05-01  63.8
      2012-06-01  63.8
      2012-07-01  63.7
      2012-08-01  63.5
      2012-09-01  63.6
      2012-10-01  63.8
      2012-11-01  63.6

      I don't think that constitutes a trend of people leaving the workforce.

  •  Headline number : 7.7% (8+ / 0-)

    The media will emphasize the top number, so 7.7% is all most will see. The trend is in the right direction despite Republican efforts in Congress to smother the economy.

    Now there's even more ammo for the President to use against Congress - their austerity bomb will get the blame if the January numbers reverse the positive trend.

    Filibuster reform now. No more Gentleman's agreements.

    by bear83 on Fri Dec 07, 2012 at 06:21:19 AM PST

  •  These are good numbers when one factors in (9+ / 0-)

    Hurricane Sandy.  The big loss in manufacturing jobs basically is directly attributable to Sandy.

    I thought the numbers were going to be lower.

    "A candle loses nothing by lighting another candle" - Mohammed Nabbous, R.I.P.

    by Lawrence on Fri Dec 07, 2012 at 06:21:49 AM PST

    •  Link, please regarding manufacturing... (0+ / 0-)

      ...job loss for November being directly attributable to Sandy.

      Don't tell me what you believe, show me what you do and I will tell you what you believe.

      by Meteor Blades on Fri Dec 07, 2012 at 09:57:51 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  It was discussed widely when the ADP numbers (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Meteor Blades

        for Nov. came out.

        Can't find the article where I read the breakdown, but I found these:

        Temp work, hospitality, retail, and manufacturing industries were hit hardest by the storm.
        http://www.cnbc.com/...
        “Superstorm Sandy wreaked havoc on the job market in November, slicing an estimated 86,000 jobs from payrolls. The manufacturing, retailing, leisure and hospitality, and temporary help industries were hit particularly hard by the storm. Abstracting from the storm, the job market turned in a good performance during the month.”
        http://business.time.com/...
        WASHINGTON (MarketWatch) — The U.S. saw slower jobs growth in November as Hurricane Sandy hurt employment, particularly in the manufacturing sector, a payrolls processing firm estimated Wednesday.
        http://articles.marketwatch.com/...

        It would be hard to explain if not attributable to mainly Sandy, especially since employment in manufacturing in the automobile industry grew by 10k, according to the BLS report.

        "A candle loses nothing by lighting another candle" - Mohammed Nabbous, R.I.P.

        by Lawrence on Fri Dec 07, 2012 at 10:29:43 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

  •  Paging Jack Welch and the Tin Foil Hat Brigade n/t (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Miggles, jiffypop, TheLizardKing

    “I believe all Southern liberals come from the same starting point--race. Once you figure out they are lying to you about race, you start to question everything.” ― Molly Ivins

    by RoIn on Fri Dec 07, 2012 at 06:23:33 AM PST

  •  My heart went (0+ / 0-)

    Slow thinkers - keep right

    by Dave the Wave on Fri Dec 07, 2012 at 06:33:36 AM PST

  •  Uh-oh (5+ / 0-)

    Someone must be monkeying with the data for the 2016 election . . .

  •  Not a good day (5+ / 0-)

    ...for economic doomsayers, left and right.

    The beauty is that they've for years gone all in on apocalypse, their paranoia aided lately by the "fiscal cliff" talk, so that when the current nonsense passes and the recovery continues, they'll eventually have to capitulate and sell their gold and dehydrated food and invest in America again.

    Bull market, baby!

  •  "Morning in America" Watch (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    FistJab, ColoTim, KJB Oregon

    A couple of months ago, CBS Evening News drew attention to the economic recoveries under Reagan and Obama, pointing out the trends were almost identical. President Obama of course inherited a man-made economic disaster, whereas Reagan inherited a recession. Obama's approval rating is also higher.

    If unemployment drops below 7.4% in the coming months, we can officially call this Obama's "Morning in America".

    I'm being simplistic, absolutely. But if McCain or Romney were president, you can be sure FOX News and their ilk would be jumping all over this comparison.

    •  Regean's unemployment rate decline was with (0+ / 0-)

      rising participation rates, in contrast to the decline in participation we have today.

      Today's number is just about enough to cover the increase in population, not enough to reduce the number of unemployed.

      The most important way to protect the environment is not to have more than one child.

      by nextstep on Fri Dec 07, 2012 at 07:28:59 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  Having lived through a few Recessions (3+ / 0-)

    This was a Depression; not a Recession.  I don't think, unless the President can pass a Serious Infrastructure Bill, which I know Wall Street will sign onto, the jobs as I used to know them, will not come back.

    •  A Depression is . . . (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      FiredUpInCA

      A recession aggravated by a collapse of the financial sector, resulting in months or years of low demand. So, yes.

      And God said, "Let there be light"; and with a Big Bang, there was light. And God said "Ow! Ow My eyes!" and in a flash God separated light from darkness. "Whew! Now that's better. Now where was I. Oh yea . . ."

      by Pale Jenova on Fri Dec 07, 2012 at 07:24:46 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  Signs of life... (4+ / 0-)

    U-6 unemployment rate, which includes discouraged workers,declined to 14.4%.

    Average hourly earnings increased $0.04 to $23.63.  

    Obama 2012 http://whatthefuckhasobamadonesofar.com/

    by jiffypop on Fri Dec 07, 2012 at 06:54:26 AM PST

  •  The cost of austerity? Just look at the UK economy (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    TheLizardKing, Lawrence, sethtriggs

    It’s a mess:

    For some strange reason, the Republicans are no longer bragging about the austerity movement in the UK.

    In case you wondered why, check it out for yourself. It’s a colossal failure and it’s getting worse.

    Just as many had predicted, austerity during a declining economy doesn’t fix anything. It only makes the problem worse, by cutting off critical finances and services when they’re needed the most. It’s much cheaper for governments to borrow the money and keep money moving during soft economic periods like this.

    Conservatives laughed off criticism of austerity, but it’s clear they were wrong.

  •  Romney weeps again (0+ / 0-)

    Dick Cheney says "Go unskew yourself."

    Great news for John McCain.

    And God said, "Let there be light"; and with a Big Bang, there was light. And God said "Ow! Ow My eyes!" and in a flash God separated light from darkness. "Whew! Now that's better. Now where was I. Oh yea . . ."

    by Pale Jenova on Fri Dec 07, 2012 at 07:23:17 AM PST

  •  They're cooking the books. (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    diffrntdrummr

    Uh-huh!

    How do you freakin' like me now?!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    "Fired up?"
    "Ready to go!"

    America loves a winner.

    Enagaged activism wins elections. 100 million words on liberal/progressive websites gets beat by one new GOP voter casting their vote.

    by Nebraska68847Dem on Fri Dec 07, 2012 at 07:33:48 AM PST

  •  The job increases this year are at... (0+ / 0-)

    ...151,000 a month on average. Just about the same as 2011.

    Don't tell me what you believe, show me what you do and I will tell you what you believe.

    by Meteor Blades on Fri Dec 07, 2012 at 08:24:53 AM PST

  •  If Pres & Dem's stronger negotiating position (0+ / 0-)

    (AND choices) succeed in doing a few good things for the economy legislatively, we might see some MORE nice increment of recovery.    

    "The extinction of the human race will come from its inability to EMOTIONALLY comprehend the exponential function." -- Edward Teller

    by lgmcp on Fri Dec 07, 2012 at 08:55:26 AM PST

  •  Why Obama won (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Lawrence

    Now we know why and how President Obama so easily won reelection. The economy is getting better by leaps and bounds, and voters understand it better than than the GOP did. Contrary to the conservative canard that Obama is "anti-business," the economy is rolling again and moving forward at a clip not seen in years. Why do corporations or the rich need another tax cut when they are all doing just fine and making plenty of money, and jobs are being created? This jobs report is the best advertisement for the end of the Bush tax cuts for billionaires that the administration could hope for. -  pp

  •  Watched Bloomberg TV...... (0+ / 0-)

    This morning when the news was announced (actually I was watching Bill Press and momentarily switched channels) and it was truly sad to see everyone falling all over themselves trying to point out that this wasn't necessarily a good thing. I swear, that if the heavens opened up and rained gold coins with Obama's name on them, those asshats would find someting negative to say about it. So, I've added Bloomberg to my list of "Don't watch TV" along with Faux Nooz and CNBC. I'm an investor but I'm gonna have to get my financial news elsewhere cause I'm not puttin' up with this s#it anymore.

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