Skip to main content

With this shooting tragedy impacting the youngest and most vulnerable among us, we mourn their loss but are aching to do something to prevent further violence like this.

Weapons of mass destruction right here at home need to be kept from the mentally ill. Ammunition magazines with multiple rounds need to be banned.

A 15-round or larger type of gun, "easily available," was used to get off more than 50 or 60 rounds was used in this crime today. Besides making these kinds of guns illegal (my wish) we should stop these crazy huge magazines from being sold at all. They are not used for hunting and they are not "fun." They are too dangerous.

If we did that, and had health care available for those with mental and emotional problems we might escape the escalation of desperation that leads to horrific crimes like these. We have too many of these. One is too many.

Why not take part of the huge budget, say half, from the vast department of Homeland Security, which was created after 9/11 in a fearful, zealous over-reach, and devote that to free mental health care for all who need it.

Talk about homeland security, we would all be safer if those with mental illness or emotional problems were to get care and if those who were identified as violent were identified and kept from buying weapons of mass destruction.

We cannot and should not continue to stick our heads in the sand and ignore the problem of mental illness being untreated and of huge gun rounds being readily available.

We have the resources for decent mental health, for identifying dangerously ill persons who should not have access to weapons. We have political power we could mobilize if only we could get momentum and pressure on our government.

For too long we have ignored the gun and ammunition rounds/"magazine" problems, the lack of enforcement of background checks, and other problematic laws. Just this week I found out that Florida where I reside has the most concealed carriers of guns of any state, about one million! They can carry them in schools! This would be legal in Florida, taking the gun into an elementary school today.

For too long we have ignored the total negligence of our society in dealing with the mentally ill, with lack of resources devoted to mental health care.  Who can afford any mental health care if they don't work at a good job with great HC benefits? No one.

Although we cannot eliminate violent tragedies we can do everything we can to make things harder for a person who has emotional or mental problems to carry out such acts of mass destruction.

F*'# the NRA. F*'# the Republican "Fiscal Cliff" non-deficit phonies, and the "Deficit!" Hawks. Let's organize and do it.

Originally posted to Gorette on Fri Dec 14, 2012 at 11:57 AM PST.

Also republished by Community Spotlight.

EMAIL TO A FRIEND X
Your Email has been sent.
You must add at least one tag to this diary before publishing it.

Add keywords that describe this diary. Separate multiple keywords with commas.
Tagging tips - Search For Tags - Browse For Tags

?

More Tagging tips:

A tag is a way to search for this diary. If someone is searching for "Barack Obama," is this a diary they'd be trying to find?

Use a person's full name, without any title. Senator Obama may become President Obama, and Michelle Obama might run for office.

If your diary covers an election or elected official, use election tags, which are generally the state abbreviation followed by the office. CA-01 is the first district House seat. CA-Sen covers both senate races. NY-GOV covers the New York governor's race.

Tags do not compound: that is, "education reform" is a completely different tag from "education". A tag like "reform" alone is probably not meaningful.

Consider if one or more of these tags fits your diary: Civil Rights, Community, Congress, Culture, Economy, Education, Elections, Energy, Environment, Health Care, International, Labor, Law, Media, Meta, National Security, Science, Transportation, or White House. If your diary is specific to a state, consider adding the state (California, Texas, etc). Keep in mind, though, that there are many wonderful and important diaries that don't fit in any of these tags. Don't worry if yours doesn't.

You can add a private note to this diary when hotlisting it:
Are you sure you want to remove this diary from your hotlist?
Are you sure you want to remove your recommendation? You can only recommend a diary once, so you will not be able to re-recommend it afterwards.
Rescue this diary, and add a note:
Are you sure you want to remove this diary from Rescue?
Choose where to republish this diary. The diary will be added to the queue for that group. Publish it from the queue to make it appear.

You must be a member of a group to use this feature.

Add a quick update to your diary without changing the diary itself:
Are you sure you want to remove this diary?
(The diary will be removed from the site and returned to your drafts for further editing.)
(The diary will be removed.)
Are you sure you want to save these changes to the published diary?

Comment Preferences

  •  I second your motion! (6+ / 0-)

    It's difficult to be happy knowing so many suffer. We must unite.

    by War on Error on Fri Dec 14, 2012 at 12:01:32 PM PST

    •  Finally! We need to do a lot of things (11+ / 0-)

      Sensible gun control and OMG please adequate mental heath care. These shooters are victims too. Many states stop mental health care for kids when they reach 18, a miracle cure I guess. A young man who begged for help and couldn't get it went on a shooting spree where I live. His name was Robbie Hawkins and no one cared about him.

      The work goes on, the cause endures, the hope still lives and the dreams shall never die. ~ Edward M. (Ted) Kennedy

      by cherie clark on Fri Dec 14, 2012 at 06:37:17 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  This young man is said to have been (6+ / 0-)

        troubled, to have "problems." I wonder if he got any help at all.

        "extreme concentration of income is incompatible with real democracy.... the truth is that the whole nature of our society is at stake." Paul Krugman

        by Gorette on Fri Dec 14, 2012 at 07:00:37 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  Most of these perpetrators are over 18 (7+ / 0-)

        with some SERIOUS unresolved emotional issues that need to be paid for somehow. I'm just reeling today with the news, and searching, searching for answers. All the statistics are coming out, about how there are over 300 million adults in this country , and well over 1 million guns.

        While in my heart of hearts I wish we could just "disappear" the guns, it is entirely unthinkable . Not gonna happen. The tragedy today was committed by a young adult with his mother's guns. She would pass a background check. The shooter in the Oregon mall just days ago used a stolen weapon. Can't really prevent that either.

        The discussion in our home turned to these approaches :
         - providing serious level person to person on time, fully funded counseling, at the very local level..parenting support, school counselors, local mental health facilities. I love this diary for pointing out that Homeland Security is exactly appropriate for this - well done !!!

        - immediate (an executive order ?) banning of online gun sales and gun show / flea market type of sales with no background checks , going forward . Enforce all background checks everywhere. Federal law could eliminate concealed weapon "right to carry" state laws . Restrict magazine sales and automatic weapon sales. This is a crisis in our country.

        -  Build physical barriers around our schools , with guards ( more than one ) . These campuses are way too open, and vunerable. Overseas schools tend to look like prisons compared to ours, and they demand even of parents their driver's license and issue a pass with a neckstrap, without which you cannot get into the school building . You park outside and walk in . They check what you are carrying, and question you looking in your eyes.

        -We need to defend ourselves . Install metal detectors at mall entrances . Other countries that deal with violence do all of these things and more. We'll never stop the crazy completely , but we can slow it down.

        •  I don't agree with banning concealed carry (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          BobTheHappyDinosaur, KenBee, oldpunk

          OMG you have to be squeaky clean to get one. Other than at one most Americans agree with you. But bare in mind only those who have been involuntarily committed show up with background checks. Our shooter today likely could have purchased a gun legally.

          The work goes on, the cause endures, the hope still lives and the dreams shall never die. ~ Edward M. (Ted) Kennedy

          by cherie clark on Fri Dec 14, 2012 at 07:29:04 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Not legally in CT, he was underage, and - no, (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Gorette, OleHippieChick

            you don't have to be "squeaky clean", that's just not true - four states don't restrict concealed carry AT ALL, and in others, simple assault or simple battery and most non-violent crimes won't disqualify a CCW applicant.

            •  two states that i know-of (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Gorette

              Vermont and Alaska don't require a CCW - not even for out-of-state residents.
              48 other states have some form of regulation, though the law in Arizona appears to have changed to "21 and over" with no requirement for a CCW.

              •  Alaska I can understand it is still mostly (0+ / 0-)

                wilderness

                The work goes on, the cause endures, the hope still lives and the dreams shall never die. ~ Edward M. (Ted) Kennedy

                by cherie clark on Fri Dec 14, 2012 at 09:39:50 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  Alaska is rather right wing. (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  oldpunk

                  But what of Vermont?

                  That's where the folks from California have gone, finding California a bit too capitalist/corporatist/fascist for their liking.
                  Gray hair, and Birkenstocks with wool socks is a tell-tale sign.

                  •  Politics probably doesn't have much to do with it (0+ / 0-)

                    you can get hurt in Alaska it is wild wilderness in most places. Vermont isnt' very populated, mountains who knows but apparently it works for them. I had to go thru such hoops to get my conceal I assumed it was pretty strict every where. I live in Nebraska now and just got it here. I personally do not believe we have a right to carry a concealed weapon and it needs to be very strictly regulated.

                    The work goes on, the cause endures, the hope still lives and the dreams shall never die. ~ Edward M. (Ted) Kennedy

                    by cherie clark on Fri Dec 14, 2012 at 10:12:26 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

            •  I got mine in Wa and I did have to be squeaky (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              oldpunk

              If it is lax in your state you need to raise hell.

              The work goes on, the cause endures, the hope still lives and the dreams shall never die. ~ Edward M. (Ted) Kennedy

              by cherie clark on Fri Dec 14, 2012 at 09:37:14 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

            •  Thats right his brother is 24, sorry (0+ / 0-)

              The work goes on, the cause endures, the hope still lives and the dreams shall never die. ~ Edward M. (Ted) Kennedy

              by cherie clark on Fri Dec 14, 2012 at 09:38:51 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

          •  Are there 1 million squeaky clean people in FL? (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Alice in Florida, OleHippieChick

            I find it hard to believe, living here. I suppose it's possible, but to live with them everywhere I am fearful.

            "extreme concentration of income is incompatible with real democracy.... the truth is that the whole nature of our society is at stake." Paul Krugman

            by Gorette on Sat Dec 15, 2012 at 06:09:50 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  Some of them may be from out of (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Gorette

              state--I thought I saw something to the effect that FL residence is not required for a FL concealed carry permit.

              "All governments lie, but disaster lies in wait for countries whose officials smoke the same hashish they give out." --I.F. Stone

              by Alice in Florida on Sat Dec 15, 2012 at 08:18:04 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

        •  Excellent points-- about protecting schools (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          KenBee

          especially. I had no idea European schools were so much better protected. I know of a school here in FL that does a good job re ID etc. but not the other things. Metal detectors sound like a good idea and though you just hate to do that for elementary schools you have to be realistic. With so many guns here it seems crazy that Europe would have better security in schools.

          You need to know that there are vastly more guns than you think, if that 1 million is not a typo. There are 88.8 firearms per 100 people in US, or almost one for every person. People who own one gun often own two (62% do) and 17% of gun owners have a semi-automatic weapon per this chart.

          I have heard that the FBI says there are more than 200 million guns in the US.

          So really we should argue, if Americans want to own so many guns and we live in an armed camp, then they need to agree to pay for better protection for our kids, and adults, for full compliance background checks and for much better mental health.

          Thanks for your comment.

          "extreme concentration of income is incompatible with real democracy.... the truth is that the whole nature of our society is at stake." Paul Krugman

          by Gorette on Sat Dec 15, 2012 at 06:08:05 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

        •  Are the metal detectors hooked up to "man (0+ / 0-)

          traps" where you have two doors only one of which can be open at a time (which means screening will take forever as you can only check one person at a time)?  Because if there isn't something like that then the gunman could just shoot the guard at the metal detector and walk through since metal detectors merely detect guns and other metal objects.

          You have watched Faux News, now lose 2d10 SAN.

          by Throw The Bums Out on Sat Dec 15, 2012 at 07:53:59 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

        •  Regarding physical barriers (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Sunspots

          I think I heard on one report that physical barriers (only one entrance/exit opening in area where shooting took place) made it more difficult for victims to escape...some "solutions" can actually make the problem worse. Turning all public buildings into fortresses is not the way forward.

          "All governments lie, but disaster lies in wait for countries whose officials smoke the same hashish they give out." --I.F. Stone

          by Alice in Florida on Sat Dec 15, 2012 at 08:16:28 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

      •  Even if children are supposed to be able to get (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        SpawnOfJerry

        help with mental health, access is a problem.
        This "kid", the shooter, was located in a small town about 27000 people.  I doubt if their was a proper mental health professional available.
        I have that problem living in a small town so, we do without.

  •  I agree with you (14+ / 0-)

    I am a supporter of the 2nd amendment and I know that makes me unpopular, but I believe that regardless of where you stand on that issue you have to acknowledge that if we were to ban guns tomorrow it would not do anything to actually get rid of them. They are here in the millions.

    What we can do is address mental health, it is doable. I believe that we all can agree that a sane person would not do this, the shooter was obviously having serious issues and they were not being treated. If we can't address a problem with a pill, we do nothing in this country.

    Millions of sane gun owners will never take up arms and go on a mass shooting rampage. Brothers, fathers, sons and daughters will go hunting or target shooting and never once think about killing a person. All of this demonizing of guns and regular people is wrong, IMO.

    BTW, I HATE the NRA. I really do. The national NRA is a Republican interest group and that is all.

    "The scientific nature of the ordinary man is to go on out and do the best you can." John Prine

    by high uintas on Fri Dec 14, 2012 at 12:15:22 PM PST

  •  Wanted to add (7+ / 0-)

    This is personal to me, mr.uintas works in a school and my grandson's go to schools. This shooting is horrific.

    "The scientific nature of the ordinary man is to go on out and do the best you can." John Prine

    by high uintas on Fri Dec 14, 2012 at 12:16:57 PM PST

  •  I'm sick of the elephant in the room when these (9+ / 0-)

    tragedies happen, no one ever talks about this.

    Everyone is horrified, but no one addresses the real problem.

    "I'm sculpting now. Landscapes mostly." ~ Yogi Bear

    by eXtina on Fri Dec 14, 2012 at 12:20:14 PM PST

  •  even if mental health care was free... (9+ / 0-)

    would those among us who most need it, who are most prone to violently snapping like this, avail themselves of it?  I'm not sure they would.  

    I'm not sure, to be honest, what to do about these situations, but it sure seems like they are becoming more common.  The shooters also seem to have some disturbing similarities:  white kids, early twenties.  I'm sure there are more common denominators.  

    22 or 24 years old is pretty early in life to go off the deep end like this.  Why is life proving so hard to cope with for these young men?

    Oregon: Sure...it's cold. But it's a damp cold.

    by Keith930 on Fri Dec 14, 2012 at 12:31:15 PM PST

    •  Isn't That a Classic Age for Schizophrenia to Begi (11+ / 0-)

      showing? And I think sociopaths show up early, torturing animals as kids for example. Hardly my specialty though.

      Young men are hard to cope with. That as a Dem senator once said is why we use them for soldiers.

      No program such as say free mental health or a ban on X type of gun will get everyone but it would help depress the numbers.

      We are called to speak for the weak, for the voiceless, for victims of our nation and for those it calls enemy.... --ML King "Beyond Vietnam"

      by Gooserock on Fri Dec 14, 2012 at 12:36:37 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Yes, " would help depress the numbers." (4+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        ginja, chantedor, cherie clark, fuzzyguy

        That would make it worthwhile.

        "extreme concentration of income is incompatible with real democracy.... the truth is that the whole nature of our society is at stake." Paul Krugman

        by Gorette on Fri Dec 14, 2012 at 12:41:50 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  It is the age at which symptoms of schizophrenia (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Gorette, fuzzyguy, isabelle hayes

        become noticeable, Gooserock, but a friend or neighbor (I dont remember which) reported to CNN that he was "autistic." I don't think of autism as being the source of violent acting out, but I'm not very familiar with it so I can't say.

        There is such a thing as childhood schizophrenia. I think it's usually quite severe. I'm certainly not a psychology pro, but  I read a fascinating article in the Harvard Mental Health Newsletter several years while working part time in the office of a friend who's a neuropsych. The article reported on the results of an experiment in which lay people were shown home movies of families in which one child was much later diagnosed with schizophrenia. Although profeessionals are reluctant to diagnose schizophrenia at a young age, the lay viewers were very reliably able to identify the child who would later by diagnosed with schizophrenia. Hmmm.

        “Social Security has nothing to do with balancing a budget or erasing or lowering the deficit.” -- Ronald Reagan, 1984 debate with Walter Mondale

        by RJDixon74135 on Fri Dec 14, 2012 at 06:18:59 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  Having the programs available (4+ / 0-)

        and used would likely reduce the stigmas we have as a nation regarding mental health. Too often I hear offensive things like "nut up" or "get over it" in regard to people who have issues that are causing them to have trouble in work or school.

        The more people use the service, the less stigma there will be around admitting there are problems. I think comparing it to PTSD is a reasonable example. Because there are services and more vets are aware of them and using them, PTSD is starting to get the respect it deserves as an illness that needs to be treated.

        •  they should be as easy to access as guns (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          SpawnOfJerry

          there is a walk-in emergency mental health clinic across the highway from my job.  They are full of people in crisis at all times. It is a very difficult place to work, and the staff have a high turnover rate.  Homeless people hang around outside all the time, along with security guards.

          I can't see a young man like the shooter in Sandy Hook using a place like this. He was white, well to do, and would not come in to talk to a counselor if he had to wait in line with smelly, scary looking people.

          But there should be somewhere a young man like this could go. Walk in. Be treated immediately. Before the incident.

          A place where his mother or brother could walk in, and say, there is something wrong and I don't know what to do.  She probably would not have gone to this clinic either.

          We have nowhere else to go... this is all we have. (Margaret Mead)

          by bruised toes on Sat Dec 15, 2012 at 05:20:47 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

    •  It is the case though that anyone thinking -- (9+ / 0-)

      just thinking-- about mental health care today is first wondering how will I ever pay for it, or how will he pay for it.

      The money is the first obstacle and prevents millions from having needed care. It might help us with extreme cases if it was available. People do not know how to manage it currently.

      But young men in their 20's are particularly vulnerable since that is when illness can begin as Gooserock points out.

      "extreme concentration of income is incompatible with real democracy.... the truth is that the whole nature of our society is at stake." Paul Krugman

      by Gorette on Fri Dec 14, 2012 at 12:40:24 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  nice baseless speculation (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Gorette, OHeyeO, Flying Goat, elkhunter
      would those among us who most need it, who are most prone to violently snapping like this, avail themselves of it?  I'm not sure they would.  
      or maybe they would

      "I'm sculpting now. Landscapes mostly." ~ Yogi Bear

      by eXtina on Fri Dec 14, 2012 at 12:52:09 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  how many billions should we appropriate, then (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        cherie clark

        on the basis of "maybe they would"?

        We have had people with mental health issues from the beginning of time, without free mental health care.  It seems to be just the past decade that we are seeing events like this, however.  There is something more at play here than youthful angst.

        Oregon: Sure...it's cold. But it's a damp cold.

        by Keith930 on Fri Dec 14, 2012 at 01:19:10 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  We'd have a better, healthier society with (6+ / 0-)

          decent, affordable, or free if need be, mental health care.

          Do you really feel all the money on HS is spent on worthwhile projects? Not from what I've heard and seen.

          "extreme concentration of income is incompatible with real democracy.... the truth is that the whole nature of our society is at stake." Paul Krugman

          by Gorette on Fri Dec 14, 2012 at 01:44:13 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

        •  there is more to mental illness than (5+ / 0-)

          'youthful angst', how disgustingly dismissive of you

          maybe some effort should be spent figuring out the answer rather than callously saying 'well it probably wouldn't help so we needn't bother'.

          yes, it does seem like these incidents are on the rise? should we pretend they have no cause or answer, just dismiss them, or try and figure it out?

          "I'm sculpting now. Landscapes mostly." ~ Yogi Bear

          by eXtina on Fri Dec 14, 2012 at 02:25:28 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

        •  As much as it takes and we need to remove the (7+ / 0-)

          stigma from mental illness since at any given time 25% of us have issues. I think teachers need to be trained how to spot these kids and how to intervene. We mostly just throw those kids away.

          The work goes on, the cause endures, the hope still lives and the dreams shall never die. ~ Edward M. (Ted) Kennedy

          by cherie clark on Fri Dec 14, 2012 at 06:48:41 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

        •  Yes, there's youth unemployment (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          isabelle hayes, elkhunter

          One thing that gets ignored a lot in talking about "treatment" is that having a job can be an important component of dealing with mental illness--having tasks to complete, having structured contact with other people, can help keep personal demons at bay compared to sitting around watching TV and hating life. Our society's decision to rely almost entirely on for-profit businesses to generate jobs means that more and more young people are unable to become self-supporting, and probably contributes to the amount of "mental illness" (a lot of it may just be normal resentment) that afflicts Americans.

          "All governments lie, but disaster lies in wait for countries whose officials smoke the same hashish they give out." --I.F. Stone

          by Alice in Florida on Sat Dec 15, 2012 at 08:39:02 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

        •  Yes - the American people would rather bury (0+ / 0-)

          20 children than take mental healthcare seriously.  First Lady Rosalyn Carter spent her time in the White House trying to get mental healthcare in health plans to no avail, Tipper Gore worked on the same problems.......

          So insurance policies do nothing on mental healthcare.  Congress will neither work on mental healthcare or curbing guns.

          Even if you put mental healthcare in Medicaid - well presently GOP states want NO MEDICAID.  The states have given that money to corporations and then plead they have no money for Medicaid.  Thus our senators, representatives, governors are saying to hell with the people.  Let's just bury 20 kids and move on to the manmade GOP (Erik Cantor) crisis known as the fiscal cliff.

      •  Or, maybe not, eXtina (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        el dorado gal, Gorette

        Impaired self-awareness is a frequently recognized characteristic of people with schizophrenia. The thinking of a person with schizophrenia often goes something like this: "Why should I be forced to take the medicine when I'm not the one with the problem, THEY are."

        “Social Security has nothing to do with balancing a budget or erasing or lowering the deficit.” -- Ronald Reagan, 1984 debate with Walter Mondale

        by RJDixon74135 on Fri Dec 14, 2012 at 06:49:07 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  Speculation either way is equally (0+ / 0-)

        baseless.  I'm not sure what your point is.

    •  there was a doctor who has studied mass... (8+ / 0-)

      killings and killers for 20 + years on NPR today and he said the following:

      The rate of mass killings in the US is about 20 per year and has been for decades

      These killers don't just 'snap' in fact they meticulously plan out every detail of the killing usually months in advance (Aurora was planned for 13 months)

      There is uasually a long simmering resentment, often preceded by a personal catastrophe (loss of job, relationship, loved one) that makes the killer feel wronged in a massive way

      Examining the details of the killers psyhe after the fact is elucidating only in hindsight and is not a at all a good predictor of who may commit these murders in the future

      Everyone turns into an amateur psych doc (his words) after the fact

      He offered very little in terms of potential solutions...not encouraging I know.

      I am not saying that we should just accept the amount of murders of this kind but, short of eliminating ALL guns, which will never happen, I am out of ideas.  

    •  In my state mental health care stops at 18 (4+ / 0-)

      after that they are on their own.

      The work goes on, the cause endures, the hope still lives and the dreams shall never die. ~ Edward M. (Ted) Kennedy

      by cherie clark on Fri Dec 14, 2012 at 06:44:09 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  That's when adult counseling should START ! (4+ / 0-)

        I've gotta say, as a parent who volunteered a lot at my kids schools, I could spot kids with some serious issues starting pretty early on.

        Young ones act out a lot in preschool , and by 2nd, 3rd grade their teachers know them very well . Teachers are stretched to capacity already, and cannot provide the individualized attention these kids and their families need.

        By the time they are in high school, they are often falling through the cracks , with the national average being 2 counselors for every 500 students or something.

        •  But it doesn't because they are no longer (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          43north, Gorette

          eligible for Medicaid. I agree with teachers and they are the ones who probably have the most contact with our kids.

          The work goes on, the cause endures, the hope still lives and the dreams shall never die. ~ Edward M. (Ted) Kennedy

          by cherie clark on Fri Dec 14, 2012 at 07:38:39 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

        •  As the S.O. of a Special Educator (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          fuzzyguy, Gorette

          there's days that she comes home from dealing with a student and parent(s) only to proclaim:

          The child's issues are nothing compared to the parent(s)!
          S/He's a rock star given what's at-home.
          Child Abuse. Abandonment. Worse.
          Parental: Spousal abuse. Alcohol. Drugs. Abandonment. Cancer. Incarceration.

          Often it's the whole unit that needs services - not just the child.

          There's part of me that wants to drop-a-dime to the State, but that would require prying a name out of her, and then violating district privacy rules.
          While assuming someone has the interest and financing to DO something with that information.

    •  Actually, youth is when people are most (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      isabelle hayes

      likely to go off the deep end...a combination of psychological/physiological changes that occur in adolescence along with the difficulty of figuring out where you fit into the world makes the teens and twenties the most fraught years for things like drug abuse, suicide, etc. It is also when mental illnesses like schizophrenia and bipolar disorder are most likely to first appear....

      And while these shooters are obviously outliers, I can certainly see how life is hard to cope with for young people...the anti-government ideology that prevents us from using government to provide free training and jobs to young people, that forces young people to remain in their parents' homes (in a society that regards that as a mark of failure), it makes perfect sense that young men (and women) would be more than usually screwed up these days.

      "All governments lie, but disaster lies in wait for countries whose officials smoke the same hashish they give out." --I.F. Stone

      by Alice in Florida on Sat Dec 15, 2012 at 08:30:06 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  Most of these tragedies by suicidally depressed (0+ / 0-)

      Rachel interviewed Dave Cullen, author of "Columbine" yesterday.  Check it out.

      Cullen says two government studies showed that these tragedies are perpetrated by one of three types of deranged people.  Most often it's suicidally depressed teens.  He said most want help, but won't, or can't, talk to Mom or Dad.  He called for annual screenings of all teens by a 3rd party to detect these kids before they go on their rampages.  Finally!  A solution that doesn't rely on unrealistic wishes to vanish dangerous guns in America.  Ain't gonna happen.

      He mentioned two other types -- I wonder if we could screen for these too?

      Anyway, it's no magic bullet as it would take a real commitment to screen every teen every year, then treat those who are found to be sick.

      Even Democrats can be asses. Look at Rahm Emanuel.

      by Helpless on Sat Dec 15, 2012 at 10:12:26 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  We could at the very least try to reduce the (8+ / 0-)

    odds of this type of thing happening by making mental health and social services much more available; and by seriously reviewing how we manage gun ownership rights in this country.

    That boy had no right to kill those children, the other adults and his mother today, but we gave him the right and we did nothing to prevent him from ending all of those lives.

    We all know that it will become clear that this kid had mental problems once his life is investigated.  Even if we had a much better system, he could have fallen through the cracks - BUT as it stands right now we don't have cracks because we have no impediments at all - it is wide open for these people to get a gun and go act out their delusions violently on others.

    •  You said it well, as usual. Yes, "wide open" (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      inclusiveheart, chantedor

      path for them to get the guns and bullets.

      Someone I know suggests that if we all joined the NRA then we could vote on their organization's activities and presumably have some impact on it all. Does it seem that would do anything? I think they'd just think their way around that but I know nothing about them.

      "extreme concentration of income is incompatible with real democracy.... the truth is that the whole nature of our society is at stake." Paul Krugman

      by Gorette on Fri Dec 14, 2012 at 02:39:48 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  I am SICK and TIRED (4+ / 0-)

    of mental illness being blamed for these tragedies. The perpetuation of this being the problem takes away from the real cause of mass murder -- GUNS.

    It's not just a zip code, it's an attitude.

    by sboucher on Fri Dec 14, 2012 at 01:29:49 PM PST

    •  So am I, but it happens to be often, not always, (6+ / 0-)

      the case. As in China today, a person deranged, bent on mass murder can go into a school and injure or kill 22 people with a KNIFE! But he would not have done so if he had not been mentally ill --or evil.

      The vast majority of mentally ill people will never hurt anyone. But the people who commit mass murder are almost always mentally ill. Can you actually dispute that with facts?

      Anyhow, I was talking about guns as well as mental illness. It is a lethal combination.

      Btw, I have been affected greatly by mental illness in my own family, my dad, my ex-husbands (2 of them) and myself (major depression). I have a very open feeling about the whole topic and acceptance of it as part of the human condition. I don't demonize mental illness, I advocate appropriate, helpful care that is affordable if not free.

      "extreme concentration of income is incompatible with real democracy.... the truth is that the whole nature of our society is at stake." Paul Krugman

      by Gorette on Fri Dec 14, 2012 at 01:49:15 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Then I shouldn't be able to drive, (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        HappyinNM, water804, Be Skeptical

        because you never know when I'll have a psychotic break and pull out my gun and shoot the driver in front of me. And I shouldn't be able to go to the mall, even though I have a concealed carry license.

        How are you going to weed out the mentally ill from purchasing guns? By the fact they've sought help at some point? That they act weird? Their facebook shows they're racist skinheads?

        And who is going to do that screening at the gun shows?

        When a tragedy like this happens, they immediately call out the Usual Suspects: the mentally ill.

        But how many among you -- fed up with financial troubles, problems at home, job insecurity, and all the burdens of daily life -- have felt incredible rage at the person at the rush checkout who brings in 20 items? You never know what's going to make a person snap. And if they have access to a gun when they do, they create this kind of carnage.

        At this point, they can't confirm if the shooter was mentally ill, but of course the assumption has been made. You'd have to be crazy to do something like this, after all. Crazy, but not mentally ill. I bet you all havae something that could be diagnosed in the DSM.

        Have they done studies of mass murders' eye color? Educational level? Socio-economical status? Ease of access to weapons?

        Sorry, but I'm on a rant on this one. It's personal.

        It's not just a zip code, it's an attitude.

        by sboucher on Fri Dec 14, 2012 at 02:47:57 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Easy, now... (11+ / 0-)
          But how many among you -- fed up with financial troubles, problems at home, job insecurity, and all the burdens of daily life -- have felt incredible rage at the person at the rush checkout who brings in 20 items? You never know what's going to make a person snap. And if they have access to a gun when they do, they create this kind of carnage.
          Like you, my wife and I have permits and carry guns.

          If either of us could even imagine using a gun under the circumstances you describe -- or under any circumstances when it wasn't needed it to protect ourselves or others from death or serious bodily harm -- we'd both stop carrying and get rid of all the guns we own.

          So would just about every CCDW permit holder we know.

          By the time I started carrying a gun, in my mid-40s, I knew myself well enough to be certain that being armed would make me less likely to get into arguments or to escalate any confrontation. Even last spring, when a guy got political road rage and screamed terroristic threats at me on the highway, I was happy to realize afterward that the only thought in my mind was driving away without provoking violence... even though I would not have been harmed, the other guy would have died, and -- as my lawyer explained -- "You would have slept at home that night, and every night, without charges." My wife, and most concealed carry permit holders, have the same sort of temperament... either before they get a permit, or as a natural result of having one. (Where we live, the background check for the permit would have dredged up even the slightest tendencies toward violence).

          You and I don't agree with a lot of this diary, but I think the HR on the tip jar is a mistake. As a fellow gun owner and permit holder, I'd personally be grateful if you removed it. Folks are shocked and horrified today, and arguing with them doesn't help much.

          "She's petite, extremely beautiful, and heavily armed." -1995 Michael Moore documentary Canadian Bacon

          by Tom Seaview on Fri Dec 14, 2012 at 06:07:44 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  I used a bad example, (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Tom Seaview, KenBee

            but what I'm trying to say is that perfectly healthy and normal people can snap under unknown circumstances. I applaud that you and your friends would stop carrying if you felt that lack of control, but there's no way to know when it's going to happen. Remember the movie "Falling Down?"

            Here in Georgia, one can carry concealed into bars. I don't have the statistics, but I bet more murders are committed by drunks than sober people.

            I'll take down the HR, but I am really, really upset about the wide brush being applied to the mentally ill around here, where people really should know better.

            It's not just a zip code, it's an attitude.

            by sboucher on Fri Dec 14, 2012 at 11:03:41 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

      •  given how awful today has been I will.. (6+ / 0-)

        only say this last thing: the doc who was discussing this today added this additional data, 150 people per year die in mass killings, while that is 150 too many, he cited the number or 15000 dying by single acts of gun violence (throw in another 15000 or so who kill themselves with guns). That is a much more frieghtening number in my opinion.

      •  More on this mass-murder with knife (0+ / 0-)

        what the hell? That sounds kind of super-human. In order to use a knife one has to be in direct contact with the victim, and only one victim at a time. Guns are simply much more efficient--and when it comes to slaughter, efficiency is a bad thing.

        "All governments lie, but disaster lies in wait for countries whose officials smoke the same hashish they give out." --I.F. Stone

        by Alice in Florida on Sat Dec 15, 2012 at 08:57:48 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

    •  Is that why you HR'd the diary? (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Massconfusion, Gorette, sawgrass727

      I think it is that mentally ill people have far too easy access to guns. Is that possible?  

      "Southern nights have you ever felt a southern night?" Allen Toussaint ~~Remember the Gulf of Mexico~~

      by rubyr on Fri Dec 14, 2012 at 05:44:11 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  why did you HR this diary? (0+ / 0-)
    •  It's a combination of both (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Flying Goat, ladybug53, SpawnOfJerry

      I saw an interview last night with someone who went to school with the killer. She said that he was brilliant, but a loner. This guy needed counseling in the worst way, it seemed.

      We don't take mental illness seriously enough in this country. Liberals like Sen. Paul Wellstone did, but not many others. If we are going to push gun control legislation then we need to do the same with laws dealing with mental health. As it stands right now, the guns used to kill these innocents were legally bought and licensed.

      I know that you are calling for complete gun control, and I laud that. It's not a bad position to take, but I just don't see us getting there.

      In most of these shootings, the common theme with them was that the perpetrators had some form of mental illness. That was especially true of the shooting in Aurora.  

      God, I wish Paul were still here. He would know what to do.

    •  The fact is that untreated mental illness is (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      isabelle hayes, ladybug53

      a contributing factor.  Other countries with loose gun control laws don't have mass killings like these nearly as often as we do.  Why is this?

      I'd call myself anti-gun, but I think looking at what causes people to decide to do things like this is also very important.

  •  I suspect we'll learn more as the story ages (4+ / 0-)

    but the knee-jerk urge to blame guns or magazines or bullets ignores the real cause.

    The human being who made the choice to go to a school and murder children today deliberately went to that place, intentionally carrying weapons, and slaughtered people.

    That's the problem.

    Somebody decided to do this, and did it.

    LBJ, Lady Bird, Anne Richards, Barbara Jordan, Sully Sullenberger, Ike, Drew Brees, Molly Ivins --Texas is no Bush league! -7.50,-5.59

    by BlackSheep1 on Fri Dec 14, 2012 at 01:52:59 PM PST

    •  Mental illness is such that it's not a rational (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      sawgrass727

      decision. It is more likely he was driven by forces he may not have understood at all. I don't know. He could have just been a cold blooded sociopath who "decided" to commit this irrational act.  The problem is complex and it involves availability of weapons, you can't get around that.

      So do you believe crazy people should have guns? And even if we can't keep all crazy people from having them, should we not even try?

      "extreme concentration of income is incompatible with real democracy.... the truth is that the whole nature of our society is at stake." Paul Krugman

      by Gorette on Fri Dec 14, 2012 at 02:45:24 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  I believe people who don't behave badly (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Tom Seaview, 43north, fuzzyguy

        shouldn't be punished because other people do behave badly.

        Let me ask YOU a question: do YOU really believe that because this guy today in Connecticut did this horrible thing, that means EVERY AMERICAN gun owner is complicit in this awful deed? Really, individually?

        LBJ, Lady Bird, Anne Richards, Barbara Jordan, Sully Sullenberger, Ike, Drew Brees, Molly Ivins --Texas is no Bush league! -7.50,-5.59

        by BlackSheep1 on Fri Dec 14, 2012 at 02:57:32 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  No, not at all. Why would you jump to that (5+ / 0-)

          conclusion? Your question shocks me. I don't hold other gun owners responsible for this act.

          I'd like to keep the guns out of the hands of those who have mental illness of a type that makes them a risk or danger to others.

          But I'm under no illusion that we could or should try to take guns away from everyone just because I hate them. My family members who like them and others who use them responsibly are entitled to have them.

          "extreme concentration of income is incompatible with real democracy.... the truth is that the whole nature of our society is at stake." Paul Krugman

          by Gorette on Fri Dec 14, 2012 at 04:42:35 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Thank you. You are one of two people not to (16+ / 0-)

            say YES in response to that question.

            Many others have said YES.

            Many others are saying YES right now on TV and the radio and in newspapers and across the Internet. Some people are not merely saying YES but screaming YES.

            Some people are so afraid of guns that they want all guns banned.
            They're not thinking about the differences between people. They're not thinking about the differences in circumstances people face. They're not willing to consider that the situations they see everyday are not universal.

            Many, many people are saying there is no difference between your family members and others who use firearms responsibly, and the people who, as we saw with today's tragedy, do not; because some people ARE going to commit criminal acts, we MUST remove all guns.

            The question comes as a shock?

            Perhaps, maybe, possibly, that isn't altogether a bad thing.

            Thank you for your answer.

            LBJ, Lady Bird, Anne Richards, Barbara Jordan, Sully Sullenberger, Ike, Drew Brees, Molly Ivins --Texas is no Bush league! -7.50,-5.59

            by BlackSheep1 on Fri Dec 14, 2012 at 04:59:47 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  calm down, the vast majority of Americans want (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Gorette, sawgrass727

              sensible gun control, not a ban on guns.74% of NRA MEMBERS have no problem with background checks. I don't know what you are watching or reading but i have heard no one put forth such a down right stupid idea. What I have started hearing is more and more people talking about the part mental illness and lack of care plays in these tragedies.

              The work goes on, the cause endures, the hope still lives and the dreams shall never die. ~ Edward M. (Ted) Kennedy

              by cherie clark on Fri Dec 14, 2012 at 07:01:18 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  I'm a gun owner, a military vet, and a (20+ / 0-)

                50-something woman.

                I am not now a member of the NRA; like my kid brother, I got a one-year membership once, for the American Rifleman magazine. At the time he shot a lot of black powder and I was a newly-minted Air Force firearms instructor. But that was in the 1970s, and the world has changed a lot since then.

                I do not, nor have I ever, agreed with what Wayne LaPierre has made of it -- as far back as Bush1, he showed his colors as a nutjob and a fanatic who gave not a tinker's dam for human life or others' liberty.

                I have heard commentators on CBS, PBS, NBC, CNN and MSNBC call for a ban on guns -- either all handguns or all privately-owned firearms -- today.  To hell with the Americans who own and use firearms responsibly, and to hell with the Second Amendment, they cry -- guns are everywhere, and guns are evil. People don't use guns -- according to this hue and cry, guns exude such malicious power they actually influence people to kill other people using guns.
                Commenters here on this site today have been highly vocal and very offensive toward people who believe, as I do, that there is a difference between a citizen and a serf, a difference between a responsible person and a criminal, a difference between freedom and "being allowed to have one in your home as long as you don't take it out in public" (what a commenter here told me is the 'perfectly fine' UK official position with regard to a "weapon" like a pocket knife or Leatherman ).

                Not to mention calls for bans on "automatic weapons" which have been written right here on this site, as well as calls to "restrict high capacity magazines" and "bring back the assault weapon ban" plastered in diary after diary after comment thread all day long today.

                What's getting lost in the cacophony are the facts about the shooter today:

                The man who shot those children today did not legally own the handguns he used in his massacre, nor the Bushmaster, nor the car, found at the school. All those items belonged to his mother -- and he murdered her first, then stole all those items and fled to create further chaos, wreak further havoc, and slaughter children he didn't even know.

                The man who began by murdering his mother and ended by committing suicide had a history of mental illness.

                He is not the only such shooter to have such a history.

                But there's little if any talk about the lack of a proper mental health care infrastructure or affordable, accessible care, or followup to ensure people in need of treatment get that care.

                There's an awful lot of talk and writing about how awful it is that people in America can have firearms, though.

                That's what I'm hearing and reading and seeing.

                LBJ, Lady Bird, Anne Richards, Barbara Jordan, Sully Sullenberger, Ike, Drew Brees, Molly Ivins --Texas is no Bush league! -7.50,-5.59

                by BlackSheep1 on Fri Dec 14, 2012 at 07:45:42 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  a similar rampage recently was by car (0+ / 0-)

                  a young person with a generally similar profile as this and other young shooters drove a car at high speed thru a street party and killed several other young people.

                  An old person for whatever mental problem she had drove onto a crowded sidewalk and killed several people.

                  It's not the car

                  It's not the gun

                  it's not the bullet

                  it's not the trigger

                  it's the brain.

                   Sensible gun laws, sure, tune them up, make better enforcement and mental health services available especially by not wasting precious tax money elsewhere, but definitely make mental health care available, and especially work to remove the stigma of needing and asking for help.

                     The local professionals and concerned citizens where I live created a sliding scale counseling service available, it helped me...
                   

                  This machine kills Fascists.

                  by KenBee on Sat Dec 15, 2012 at 06:16:03 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

          •  Why are they entitled (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            chantedor, sawgrass727

            to own weapons that kill other members of society? You don't need the kind of weapon used by this shooter to hunt or protect yourself. We need to be able  to say to the people who love their fucking guns that are semi automatic weapons designed to kill a lot of people you cannot own them you cannot have them. Your relatives and friends cannot hold our right to live in peace hostage anymore.  14 kids dead and your defending your relatives who are good people? Please stop enabling this mentality.

            •  why should law-abiding Americans be (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              fuzzyguy

              punished for the criminal acts of others?

              LBJ, Lady Bird, Anne Richards, Barbara Jordan, Sully Sullenberger, Ike, Drew Brees, Molly Ivins --Texas is no Bush league! -7.50,-5.59

              by BlackSheep1 on Fri Dec 14, 2012 at 10:10:35 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  Punished? (4+ / 0-)

                You keep using the word punished.  

                Why would it be "punishment" for a private citizen to not be allowed to own a semi-automatic weapon if tougher regulations meant that all public places are safer?   It's that selfishness which is very off-putting around this issue.

                My kids were not at Newton but all parents know it could happen to their children at any school anyway.  I don't think it would "punish" the owners of semi-automatic weapons by having a mandatory Federal buy-back program if it means every parent--and every child--could have more peace of mind and more safety.  I think that is a worthy public health policy.    

                20 kids slain is 20 kids too many.  How many deaths are acceptable to you before you would agree that semi-automatic weapons should be forbidden? Or do you have a better alternative?  

                I wish your anger was being expressed at the fact that our public policies are broken than being angry at those who want to fix the problem somehow, someway, to save the lives of innocent people who happen to be in a public place.

                As Josh Marshall said, gun-owning advocates should be on the forefront of figuring out how to make our society safer, not fighting those who want to make it safer.  

                More guns and looser gun laws ain't working.   Something has to happen.

                •  Our public policies are broken? (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  KenBee

                  Okay. I agree with that.
                  We do not esteem the safety of our children enough to protect them.
                  Oh, sure we give school districts police forces ...
                  police forces aimed at the children inside the building, searching lockers and classrooms and backpacks with drug dogs.
                  We confiscate knives and suspend boys for drawing pictures that look like guns and handcuff little girls for writing on the desks.
                  We scream "drug free zones" and "zero tolerance"  and we demand children not be allowed to have the asthma inhalers that could save their lives; we strip-search teenage girls because maybe they've got a Tylenol or a Midol in their underwear.
                  But we don't fund nurses in every building in every school.
                  We will fund our zero-tolerance to the max, including advertising with big bold colorful signs that our schools are "gun-free zones" ... and we do not take seriously the danger posed by publicizing either just what soft targets our schools really are, or rampages like yesterday's celebrated so hard in a media demanding shock that such events are bound to inspire copycats.

                  Let me ask you something. What do you remember about Columbine? Whose names do you still recall, from that tragic day when a pair of lunatics attacked their own school? Or from the day the Alfred P. Murrah building was blown to smithereens when a lunatic attacked a federal building and blew up children in the daycare center? Or the day a lunatic attacked Virginia Tech? Or the day a lunatic attacked a congresswoman's event at a Tucson mall?
                  The names of the victims, or the names of the criminals who killed so many innocent people, including children, on those days?

                  yes. Our public policies are broken.

                  LBJ, Lady Bird, Anne Richards, Barbara Jordan, Sully Sullenberger, Ike, Drew Brees, Molly Ivins --Texas is no Bush league! -7.50,-5.59

                  by BlackSheep1 on Sat Dec 15, 2012 at 10:03:44 AM PST

                  [ Parent ]

          •  Good grief we need responsible gun owners (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            sawgrass727, KenBee

            to be part of the solution, it is going to take everyone working together to fix this. Well scratch the NRA.

            The work goes on, the cause endures, the hope still lives and the dreams shall never die. ~ Edward M. (Ted) Kennedy

            by cherie clark on Fri Dec 14, 2012 at 06:58:11 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

    •  And he had (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      sawgrass727

      no problem getting weapons to carry out his violent bloody insanity. Sure people are nuts we live in a nut's dehumanizing cruel culture and some of them are homicidal but why in the hell allow the public at large access to weapons that enable these muckers to realize  their sick fantasy's.  Some portion of society will always run amok but one solution is to stop the proliferation of weapons that aid and abet their realization of actually accomplishing their violent delusions. Enough is enough get these fucking guns banned.  

      •  He probably could have purchased legally because (5+ / 0-)

        AFAIK he was never involuntarily committed. The guns were his mothers and you might ask if he had issues why she had them or allowed them to be loose in the house.

        The work goes on, the cause endures, the hope still lives and the dreams shall never die. ~ Edward M. (Ted) Kennedy

        by cherie clark on Fri Dec 14, 2012 at 07:03:00 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  are you advocating (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Island

          committing people involuntarily? WTF. If the guns were his mothers then WTF fuck was her problem? Why does anyone stockpile weapons like this? So what were her issues? A kindergarten teacher with a cache of guns great. So I'm saying who is sane that owns this type of guns? Sounds to me like this whole environment of having and  these weapons in your house is not at all what I would classify as mentally healthy. We reap what we sow and this society surely sows violence and fear.    

          •  Oh of course I am advocating that WTF, only (0+ / 0-)

            people who are involuntarily committed get caught n background checks. I have guns in my house, I have always had guns in my house, they are locked up in a gun safe, a big one that is bolted to the floor of our basement. The pistol has a trigger lock, the ammo is stored in a completely different place in the house. I find out now he wasn't old enough to purchase in Conn. My understanding is there were three guns, that isn't very many to own. There is no way of knowing why she owned them, but they were legally purchased and the hand guns were registered. Her mental health really has nothing to do with it, she was irresponsible leaving them loose in the house, if that is what she in fact did. People have told me my guns are no good for personal home defense when they are locked up. Well thats not what they are there for, got a big assed nasty dog for protection.

            The work goes on, the cause endures, the hope still lives and the dreams shall never die. ~ Edward M. (Ted) Kennedy

            by cherie clark on Fri Dec 14, 2012 at 09:49:57 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  What are they for (0+ / 0-)

              these guns you have in your basement? do you hunt? Are they semi automatic maximum killing type guns? Involuntary commitment for people who get profiled as being crazy or disturbed is okay as the that is the only way to catch them in background checks. Sick really sick.

              •  I collect classic long guns, shot guns and rifles (4+ / 0-)

                not ones you would want to tramp thru the woods with tho you surely could. I used to hunt, mostly pheasants, do some trap shooting. I'm 68  haven't hunted in years. Some of them are semi-automatic 3-5 shot max, not fire hoses of lead. Single shots make great target guns not hunting guns, 3-5 is about right. You have to pull the trigger each time and the semi automatic part if it ejects the the old load and loads the new one. Some of the older ones are repeaters. The newest I have is a mid 50's Browning over under shot gun. I have a couple of military rifles, from WWI. The hand gun was purchased in the early 80's, a Browning 9MM, I  traveled on the road at a time when carjackings were common. I also had a concealed carry. I personally don't like hand guns, not useful even for personal defense in the home. I was very aware of the possibility of injuring someone unintentionally. I took the time to find a bullet that would stop someone without being a danger to others. I settled on Magsafe. I grew up around guns, my uncle was a dealer. I learned to be responsible. My kids grew up around guns, I still have the two they shared as kids a 22 single shot match rifle and an old Ithaca model 37 shot gun. When my grandson is older, he is 8 now I am sure his Dad will have him out plinking with the match rifle and see if he is interested in hunting. There are a lot of reasons to own guns. I have sold guns in the past, either to people already known to me or thru my favorite gun shop who checked the buyer out for me. When you are dealing with antique guns the cost sort of precludes them being purchased for nefarious reasons so I don't worry about the ones sold before background checks were common. I just want you to know there are millions and millions of gun owners out there who aren't crazy, who are never ever going to be a problem. Our history is really tied to the gun and advances in gun design. It is the history that fascinates me. I am all for sensible gun laws, they protect all of us, including gun owners.

                The work goes on, the cause endures, the hope still lives and the dreams shall never die. ~ Edward M. (Ted) Kennedy

                by cherie clark on Sat Dec 15, 2012 at 06:20:42 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  It's interesting to hear about your attachment (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  cherie clark, zesty grapher

                  to and obvious love of guns. As a lifelong hater of guns (my dad's having one was a source of fear though he was not a violent person), I find it hard to understand. But I also do not understand or get a lot of other proclivities others may have. I can see you are an extremely responsible gun owner.

                  I'd be happier living in a country with no or very limited numbers of guns. But as a pragmatist I know that guns are here in the US to stay in big numbers. Best learn how to make us safer realizing that. I would favor losing the semi-automatics but with 17% or more of gun owners having them I'm not sure we can do that. Limiting the magazines is one step we might achieve, but better mental health care is something we definitely can accomplish.

                  "extreme concentration of income is incompatible with real democracy.... the truth is that the whole nature of our society is at stake." Paul Krugman

                  by Gorette on Sat Dec 15, 2012 at 06:44:51 AM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  semi automatic isn't what a lot of people think (2+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    zesty grapher, KenBee

                    the better choice is to limit clip size to less than 30. I know gun enthusiasts sometimes quibble that they have to constantly reload when target shooting, but it is a SMALL inconvenience compared to the lives it can save.

                    The work goes on, the cause endures, the hope still lives and the dreams shall never die. ~ Edward M. (Ted) Kennedy

                    by cherie clark on Sat Dec 15, 2012 at 06:51:44 AM PST

                    [ Parent ]

  •  Mental Heath services ARE available... (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    HappyinNM, TXdem, Massconfusion, Gorette

    ...especially for the poor. Parents should know that children can be self-referred to mental health services and that in NY, Ca, Conn. and plenty of other states there are state and federally funded clinics and services offered through the various Children's Hospitals. Families going through crisis, death, divorce or children showing symptoms of self-abuse, etc.  should expect their children need counseling and call to see what's available.

    Let all Bush tax cuts expire and , bring on the Sequestration cuts to defense.

    by kck on Fri Dec 14, 2012 at 02:54:48 PM PST

    •  Really? Not so in my experience. (4+ / 0-)

      But it is good to hear that is true in some places.

      Thanks for your comment.

      "extreme concentration of income is incompatible with real democracy.... the truth is that the whole nature of our society is at stake." Paul Krugman

      by Gorette on Fri Dec 14, 2012 at 04:44:19 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  True in NY, Los Angeles, and San Diego County (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Gorette

        Let all Bush tax cuts expire and , bring on the Sequestration cuts to defense.

        by kck on Fri Dec 14, 2012 at 05:21:27 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  True here as well. (0+ / 0-)

        I believe the clinics get federal grants. However, unless someone seeks help him/herself, or unless it can be proven that they are a risk to themselves or others, no treatment occurs. In this society there is a stigma attached to mental illness. Nobody wants that stigma. When we grow up, as a society, we will learn to accept mental illness in the same way we accept physical illness. Until then, people won't avail themselves of treatment, regardless of the cost. All that being said, I reject your simplistic solution to gun violence. Normal, generally happy people, snap. Life is hard these days. Lots of people are struggling to keep roofs over their heads and food in their stomachs. While some of the recent crimes have been attributed to mentally ill people, there are plenty of mentally ill people who would never hurt anyone. And there are drunk people who kill young black males because they don't like their choice of music.

        •  Just heard that in AZ there was a drastic cut (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          zesty grapher, KenBee

          in mental health $$$, said Amy Goodman on UP. She'd been there interviewing people re the shooter in the Gabby Giffords shooting.

          "A massive mental health cultural campaign" is something Chris Hayes just proposed on his show. That's right on, Chris!!

          "extreme concentration of income is incompatible with real democracy.... the truth is that the whole nature of our society is at stake." Paul Krugman

          by Gorette on Sat Dec 15, 2012 at 06:47:08 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Arizona is high on anybody's list of an out of con (0+ / 0-)

            control gun purchase scheme, it is to gun purchases what Delaware and North Dakota is to credit card abusers: a pariah state.

            A nasty coincidence that they are cutting mental health.

            They WILL get another and another lesson on this, sadly.

            This machine kills Fascists.

            by KenBee on Sat Dec 15, 2012 at 06:27:41 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

    •  Services may be available, BUT... (4+ / 0-)

      ... many patients require long-term treatment, sometimes life-long medication.  For many mental health patients, maintaining long-term employment is a challenge, which means buying medical insurance is a challenge, which means the cost of re-filling prescriptions every month may be an impossible burden.  Hopefully the Affordable Care Act will be a (small) step in the right direction.
      Fortunately, most mental health patients aren't violent, but there are exceptions.

    •  kck it's nice that availability is true for your (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      bruised toes

      community--but it really isn't true everywhere. Mental Health services might be available--on a limited basis--in some places. But the reality that I know is that the system is over-extended and underfunded. I wish it were true that qualified counseling and mental healthcare was as available as needed. Sadly, our priorities in funding these items are light years behind in many many communities across the country.

      And even if available, such as Connecticut---they have to be utilized to matter.

      "Religion is the smile on a dog." Edie Brickell

      by zesty grapher on Sat Dec 15, 2012 at 10:35:05 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  Excellent suggestion. (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Gorette
  •  please be careful who you stigmatize (3+ / 0-)

    I understand that it takes a very sick person to carry out violence like we have seen today, and repeatedly in similar incidents. The one thing that I would argue is that in some cases- I seem to recall this was a factor in the Virginia Tech case- mental health care was actually available but it wasn't enough, or it failed to stop them.
    No one can be forced to take any sort of medication, or treatment of any kind. And while I quite agree that there needs to be access to care for anyone and everyone who needs it, I think that the violence and mental illness in our culture is less about how we treat mental illness as how we treat human beings, how we teach our children, and how we treat the rest of the world.
    There are many people in the world who have mental illness who are trying to get through their lives and have no desire to hurt anyone. The stigma attached to mental illness makes that harder for these people. Painting violence as lurking within outsider, weirdo crazy people doesn't really do much to solve the problem of violence in our culture, or to help those with mental illness.
    We have a vast and insidious love and glorification of gun violence in particular which permeates our culture. Much of it based in fear of "others" intentions.
    I am in no way condoning violence, or excusing anyone who perpetrates violence (including socially acceptable, state sanctioned violence such as war) I am just saying, sometimes our intentions to help end up making more problems in the world.
    I don't actually know what the answer is.
    We really need to tread carefully.

    •  Well, keeping guns from dangerous people is (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      sawgrass727

      a move toward making fewer problems.

      I'm not foreseeing a situation where people who are ill are needlessly stuck with a diagnosis of dangerous unless they are fully evaluated and seen to be so.

      I certainly am not proposing to generalize as you seem to fear, and I hope others do not either.

      Painting violence as lurking within outsider, weirdo crazy people doesn't really do much to solve the problem of violence in our culture, or to help those with mental illness.
      Most ill people -- even those in full blown psychotic episodes-- do not hurt others. I should know. I lived with a hair-raising situation I won't go into. So no, we should not just "paint" people as violent, not unless it is decided by professionals to be warranted since most mentally ill people are not dangerous.

      "extreme concentration of income is incompatible with real democracy.... the truth is that the whole nature of our society is at stake." Paul Krugman

      by Gorette on Fri Dec 14, 2012 at 07:27:48 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  I think you have a great idea here, Gorette n/t (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    ybruti, Gorette

    “Social Security has nothing to do with balancing a budget or erasing or lowering the deficit.” -- Ronald Reagan, 1984 debate with Walter Mondale

    by RJDixon74135 on Fri Dec 14, 2012 at 06:56:16 PM PST

    •  Thanks! It seems like a no-brainer. We have (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      ybruti, sawgrass727, RJDixon74135

      less of a threat now from foreign terrorists (not saying we don't need to be careful etc etc) and seemingly more from these mass shootings. Not that it is likely that politicians would actually re-direct assets already assigned to one department, turf being what it is.

      "extreme concentration of income is incompatible with real democracy.... the truth is that the whole nature of our society is at stake." Paul Krugman

      by Gorette on Fri Dec 14, 2012 at 07:31:29 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  More Mental Health! (5+ / 0-)

    Thanks Gorette! My thoughts exactly! Make mental health facilities as accessible and as numerous as McDonald's!

    As far as possible, without surrender, be on good terms with all.

    by SanFernandoValleyMom on Fri Dec 14, 2012 at 08:05:35 PM PST

  •  Schizophrenia and violence facts (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    sawgrass727, Gorette, misslegalbeagle

    The vast majority of people with schizophrenia do not commit violent crimes.

    People with schizophrenia are more likely to be victims of violent crime than to commit violent crimes.

    More than half of the homicides committed by people with schizophrenia are committed in the early years of the illness, before getting treatment. Once a person is in treatment, their risk of committing homicide goes down dramatically.

    The early stages of schizophrenia are the most dangerous.

    •  But then there is the suicide rate (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Gorette

      Very sadly,

      Among people diagnosed with schizophrenia, an estimated 20% to 40% attempt suicide. From 5% to 13% actually succeed and die by suicide.

      Compared to the general population, people with schizophrenia have a more than eightfold increased risk of suicide.

      One aspect of today's discussion of gun violence seldom mentioned is that a lot of gun deaths to children are caused by accidents and too-easy access.  

      I would think that it's inarguable that fewer guns would result in fewer accidental--and suicide--deaths.  That's a goal that everyone should strive for.  

  •  let's start small (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    ybruti, Gorette, bruised toes

    literally, let's start with the small children. Many mental illnesses and other emotional difficulties are cemented in place in the early years. If we made a commitment to treating children age 5-10, with support to families as needed, we could head off MANY MANY MANY problems before they ever get started.

    Limited age range means costs stay under control, young age means we find a treat serious problems before they snowball.

    Children can be saved if we give them early treatment, this could be an investment that changes our society for the good.

    www.dailykos.com is America's Blog of Record

    by WI Deadhead on Fri Dec 14, 2012 at 08:53:55 PM PST

  •  Excellent Title! & I agree with you (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    KenBee, WheninRome

    Homeland Security, Empire Building, and the War on Drugs  are legal, but immoral ways to take the people's money, waste most of it, and give the rest to the already rich.  

    What people really need does not seem to matter to our government.  IMO, the powers that be encourage DEBATE ABOUT GUN CONTROL as a distraction, like GAY MARRIAGE to divide us and take our focus and outrage off of the bigger issues.

    The horror of the event in Sandy Hook is undeniable. My heart aches for the families and classmates of the victims.  

    But I agree with the author of this diary.  I believe that  prevention of this sort of event being repeated lies more with increased funding for treatment for drug addiction and mental illness than with confiscation of guns.

    I believe that the increased number of shootings is a symptom of the terrible stress of living in a country where the economy is collapsing and jobs disappearing, while the very rich are getting richer.  Watching our government "representatives" ignore our plight except at election time creates stresses that even children and mentally ill can feel and react to.  

    Bush hijacked the US with lies about 9/11 and crashed it into Iraq, killing over 500,000 human beings. So far, he's avoided arrest and prosecution.

    by Zydekos on Fri Dec 14, 2012 at 08:59:13 PM PST

  •  however you count it, we are pissing money away (7+ / 0-)

    * DHS
    * War
    * Bloated military
    * war on Pot, enforcement, prisons, court time, losses from other crimes instead...

    could be better used in so many ways to make the us a better place to live where people feel and knw they are safer and can work, eat, shelter...and get medical care.

    less need to feel like a gun is necessary.

    This machine kills Fascists.

    by KenBee on Sat Dec 15, 2012 at 02:11:57 AM PST

  •  It doesn't seem that the shooter was mentally ill. (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    OleHippieChick

    Homeland security would not have caught this one.
    Kids are so culturally violent that it would be almost impossible to distinguish a person that may rampage.

    •  Yeah, but his mom, a supposedly educated person (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      qofdisks

      as a teacher, enabled him. She knew his condition and still had guns in the home and took him to the firing range. Oh, she loved her guns and delighted in going shooting, ffs, and now she's dead and her kid's dead. It was all great fun until somebody put out an eye.

      I ♥ President Obama. ~ Yes, we did. Again.
      NOW: Hands off SocSec, Medicare and Medicaid. NO Grand Bargain.
      Rich pay a bit more. DoD take a bit less. End war on Afghanistan sooner.

      by OleHippieChick on Sat Dec 15, 2012 at 10:12:10 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  I believe he was "troubled" which is a (0+ / 0-)

      term some substitute for mental illness. All you can read about him makes him appear to have been a social isolate with no friends and problems throughout his school years with other students and eventually being removed from school by his mother (twice).

      He was TRAINED by his mom to use an Automatic ASSAULT weapon as fun.

      "extreme concentration of income is incompatible with real democracy.... the truth is that the whole nature of our society is at stake." Paul Krugman

      by Gorette on Sun Dec 16, 2012 at 08:46:58 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

Subscribe or Donate to support Daily Kos.

Click here for the mobile view of the site