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Man with shocked expression on his face
C'mon. Don't look so surprised at their reaction.
Did you really expect anything different?
This is classic: One day after President Obama offered to extend some Bush tax cuts for the wealthy and cut Social Security benefits, John Boehner's office is going on the attack after the White House released a statement rejecting Boehner's "Plan B" proposal to extend the Bush tax cuts on all income up to $1 million.
Boehner spokesman Brendan Buck fired back that "the White House’s position defies common sense."

"After spending months saying we must ask for more from millionaires and billionaires, how can they reject a plan that does exactly that," he asked. "By once again moving the goal posts, the President is threatening every American family with higher taxes.”

So Republicans take middle-class tax cuts hostage ... and the president is threatening every American family with a tax hike? That would be an absurd thing to say under any circumstance, but it's especially ridiculous coming the day after President Obama offered the GOP enormous concessions in the hopes of getting a deal done.

The lesson here is pretty clear. First, if you give these guys an inch, they'll ask for a mile. Second, they are scared to death of getting blamed for tax hikes if the middle-class tax cuts expire. They are desperate to pin the blame on Obama, and they hope he'll stay at the negotiating table and away from the public, because if he continues making the case that he's been making to the public over tax cuts, there's no way the GOP can win. For Republicans, the one thing that would be worse than letting the Bush tax cuts expire on the wealthy would be getting the blame for letting middle-class tax cuts expire for everybody. That fact gives the president enormous leverage. He should use it.

Originally posted to The Jed Report on Tue Dec 18, 2012 at 09:41 AM PST.

Also republished by Daily Kos.

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Comment Preferences

  •  sigh....but will he.....? ... ... ... nt (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    ColoTim, cassandraX, Calamity Jean

    "one useless man is a shame, two is a law firm, and three or more is a congress" -- John Adams

    by blue armadillo on Tue Dec 18, 2012 at 09:45:56 AM PST

  •  Brendan Buck Rodgers nt (0+ / 0-)

    The 1st Amendment gives you the right to say stupid things, the 1st Amendment doesn't guarantee a paycheck to say stupid things.

    by JML9999 on Tue Dec 18, 2012 at 09:47:22 AM PST

  •  What a great negotiating partner Boehner is (9+ / 0-)

    I especially like how bad he looks on camera on TV.  Saying "uh" all the time, over and over.

    Guess it's about time to end the negotiations, though I guess they'll just keep dragging it on.  Boehner looks really shitty on TV.  Might as well drag it out for all its worth.

    Republicans: Taking the country back ... to the 19th century

    by yet another liberal on Tue Dec 18, 2012 at 09:49:40 AM PST

    •  just look at the photos... (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      deep h20, Calamity Jean

      of Boehner today (smiling, jovial) and last night (grin) versus those of the past few weeks (dour, shit sandwich taste).

      He clearly is reveling in where he's at.  The President caved in, offered to cut SS and abandon the $250K & up tax cut expiration.   Boehner can now make a hail mary pass, make Obama look like he's pushing us toward the cliff, and he can always fall back on Obama's last offer--or better--on third down.   Now that Obama showed his cards, he's got no leverage at all.  

      I am so disheartened that the second term is over before it begins.   He can't ever be a "great" president on the historical scale now.  He's a go-along to get along compromiser who squandered the recent embrace and encouragement of the electorate.  Historians will judge him harshly for it.

      I'm done reading about this any more.   I am disengaging from politics until next election.

      •  It's the blame game. (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Calamity Jean

        Boehner never had any intention of seriously negotiating. This has been about who will be stuck with the blame WHEN, not IF, it falls apart. The President, by making a concession in the interests of actually solving the problem, has fallen into the trap of believing there was ever any intention by the Republicans of finding a solution. Does that make the President a bad guy, for wanting to do something in the interests of the whole country? No. But it makes him breathlessly naive.

      •  Again ... Republicans as abusers. (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Calamity Jean

        Any sign of wanting to "work with them" is interpreted by abusers as a sign of weakness.  They LOVE it.

        They see it as a sign that they are "winning" and it just emboldens them to act even more like jerks.

        You can't "work with" abusers.  They don't think in those terms.  They think only in terms of "who is above and who is below" at any given moment;  who is "winning" and "who is losing."  

        If you're trying to work with them, by definition you're not above them.  So, by definition, you are below them and losing.

        You can't meet abusers as equals.  You have to crush them like bugs so they are afraid to ever do it again to you.  

        Obama apparently still hasn't learned this.

  •  "...defies common sense..." (6+ / 0-)

    That's a knee slapper from the crowd that wouldn't recognize such a condition if they fell over it. Of course, that's the only way they could hope to get near common sense in any event.

  •  Hope this was some of Obama's (5+ / 0-)

    famous 3D rope a dope.

    Also, I can kill you with my brain.

    by Puffin on Tue Dec 18, 2012 at 09:52:23 AM PST

  •  Let's game this out (5+ / 0-)

    If fiscal cliff negotiations fail, taxes go up for everybody.

    Now, both the House and Senate seek to pass tax cuts. Let's assume some compromise is reached between the House and Senate, say, at $400,000, which is where they are now in the negotiations. Okay, great, the Bush tax cuts stay for everyone making $400,000 and less.

    There is the debt limit, and the need for additional stimulus spending.

    You already didn't get the tax increases on those earning between $250,000 and $400,000. You lost that when we went over the cliff.

    So where do you go now in the negotiations?

    When we were ahead, people at DailyKos said to fight like we were behind. When we were behind, people at DailyKos said to give up.

    by NoFortunateSon on Tue Dec 18, 2012 at 09:52:58 AM PST

  •  Carney is saying the new proposal is raising taxes (9+ / 0-)

    for those making over $400,000 instead of $250,000.  And that WH wont let Seniors pay for Rich ppl's tax cuts.

    Ok This negotiation talks are confusing me all the way. I'm done.

    "Rick Perry talks a lot and he's not very bright. And that's a combination I like in Republicans." --- James Carville

    by LaurenMonica on Tue Dec 18, 2012 at 09:55:06 AM PST

    •  If they won't let seniors pay for Romney's tax cut (5+ / 0-)

      then why are they willing to lower SS benefits?

      "Liberty without virtue would be no blessing to us" - Benjamin Rush, 1777

      by kovie on Tue Dec 18, 2012 at 10:09:18 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  I'm out too, screw 'em, I'm done. (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      LaurenMonica, deep h20

      80 % of Success is Just Showing Up !

      by Churchill on Tue Dec 18, 2012 at 10:17:47 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  Actually its quite simple (5+ / 0-)

      Here is Obama's starting position: Income taxes go to Clinton levels on top 2%; stay at Bush levels for bottom 98%.  This is achieved simply by failing to make a deal and then forcing the GOP to cut taxes on the bottom 98% after taxes have already gone up.

      Obama wants (1) a two-year extension on the debt limit and (2) additional stimulus that might include extension of unemployment benefits or payroll tax cuts

      He will deal to try and get these.  He is willing to cut entitlements (e.g. use the CPI index for calculation of COLA) and adjust the level when the Clinton rates kick in, and perhaps some other spending reductions.

      If no agreement is reached then the payroll taxes go up and extended unemployment benefits go away.  The lower tax rates on less than 250K will be restored, and all the spending cuts in the sequester will begin.

      Then will come the debt limit in which the GOP believes they have the leverage.  Obama has said he would not negotiate.  If the GOP persists and really pushes this issue Obama will be forced to play the platinum coin (this amounts to the Fed creating money for the government to spend instead of borrowing it;this is called monetizing the debt).  The FED did debt monetization during WW II so this would be more or less the same sort of thing.

  •  Wow, people! Get a grip. (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    LaurenMonica, TomFromNJ

    It's called negotiation. You know, one side offers something and then the other side offers something and so on and so on.

    •  The issue is that the other side is offering (14+ / 0-)

      nothing.  Why do we see leaks about what Obama offered but the only thing from the other side is No.  Where was their counter-offer?

      And finally, why are these negotiations private?  It seems that something as important as this should be done as publicly as possible.

      •  Well beyond leaks (9+ / 0-)

        The WH is now confirming that Obama's willing to cut SS, and you'd better believe that the GOP will use that against him in the future.

        "Liberty without virtue would be no blessing to us" - Benjamin Rush, 1777

        by kovie on Tue Dec 18, 2012 at 10:08:45 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  They'll use it either way, (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Calamity Jean

          going into 2014 mid-terms. Except they won't be vulnerable to be called out as liars as they were on so many things in this past elections.
          This time and on this issue (Dems cutting SS benefits) they won't be liars.

          "When I see I am nothing, that is wisdom. When I see I am everything, that is love. My life is a movement between these two." - Nisargadatta Maharaj.

          by mkor7 on Tue Dec 18, 2012 at 10:20:07 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Which is part of why it's to stupid (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            mkor7

            "Liberty without virtue would be no blessing to us" - Benjamin Rush, 1777

            by kovie on Tue Dec 18, 2012 at 10:21:04 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  Proposing and Doing Are (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              TomFromNJ

              very different.  If an actual laws is signed by Obama that cuts SS then it becomes a big issue.  But the problem for the GOP in trying to attack him on the law is they would have voted for it.

              How do you attack Democrats and the President for something they voted for?  That is the reality of this situation....any deal with have to have all the parties buy in and therefore they are all responsible for it.

              •  They do it ALL the time (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                mkor7, Calamity Jean

                Their voters are stupid, that's how.

                "Liberty without virtue would be no blessing to us" - Benjamin Rush, 1777

                by kovie on Tue Dec 18, 2012 at 10:32:11 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

              •  Well, they won't have to attack (0+ / 0-)

                Democrats and the President. There won't be enough Dem voters showing up in 2014 if the Democratic party votes to cut Social Security benefits.
                Period.

                "When I see I am nothing, that is wisdom. When I see I am everything, that is love. My life is a movement between these two." - Nisargadatta Maharaj.

                by mkor7 on Tue Dec 18, 2012 at 10:46:01 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

        •  Obama willing to cut SS - So what? (0+ / 0-)

          Obama ain't running again! The GOP will use it against him how? When they are out defending SS? This proposal will not hurt Obama or the Dems. Obama will never be a candidate and any Dem who would be vulnerable to attack can say they were against SS cuts.

          •  Step back from the politics (0+ / 0-)

            There are real, live PEOPLE involved. People who rely on those benefits. I don't care one rat's ass about how it affects Obama or the Democrats. This isn't a game. Can we please look beyond the (D) vs the (R) for just once?

            "Given the choice between a Republican and someone who acts like a Republican, people will vote for a real Republican every time." Harry Truman

            by MargaretPOA on Tue Dec 18, 2012 at 10:43:52 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

          •  Not the Dems who will vote for this POS (0+ / 0-)

            And sure it'll hurt Obama if he loses the senate or more seats in the house.

            "Liberty without virtue would be no blessing to us" - Benjamin Rush, 1777

            by kovie on Tue Dec 18, 2012 at 11:37:31 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

      •  Spot on (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Miggles

        And that whole thing about offering to let tax cuts expire for people making over a million per year has already been rejected. So I'm a little unclear on what Boehner's counter offer is. What's new in that?

        "Given the choice between a Republican and someone who acts like a Republican, people will vote for a real Republican every time." Harry Truman

        by MargaretPOA on Tue Dec 18, 2012 at 10:11:50 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  Each side has specific levers to pull. (0+ / 0-)

        Each side is pulling his levers. You contradict yourself when you complain about lack of transparency and then say Obama is the only one leaking info. With this in mind, there are very few truly private negotiations anymore, what with our contemporary media (internet included).

      •  It stinks of racism to me (4+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        PeteZerria, miracle11, SB1, Miggles

        The way Boehner treats Obama, his insistence that Obama present a reasonable plan, when Boehner presents nothing.  It's like Obama is there to serve Boehner.  And most sickeningly, Obama obediently follows Boehner's commands and puts cuts to social security on the table.  To which Boehner says, "that's a start, now do it like I say!"  

        Obama just won reelection, he should be demanding a reasonable plan from Boehner, not the other way around.  Call off negotiations until Boehner offers up something.  Force Boehner to demand cuts to SS, and then point out that it is not balanced to cut SS payments that people live on while taking a couple extra percent from millionaires.  

        None of this takes any particular skill at negotiating, it's the sort of thing anyone who's ever shopped on craigslist knows.  You don't make the seller's offer for him.  You don't tell the seller you're not leaving until you've bought the item.  It's impossible, really, that Obama cannot negotiate properly.  

        The more probable explanation is Kabuki.  The plan was decided long ago, and Obama/Boehner are just dancing to appease their bases (mostly the teabaggers, as Obama doesn't need to appease us progressives - we haven't even successfully primaried a Blue Dog).

        I knew this is what I was voting for on November, but somehow this stings worse than Obama's other betrayals.  

        "When I was an alien, cultures weren't opinions" ~ Kurt Cobain, Territorial Pissings

        by Subterranean on Tue Dec 18, 2012 at 10:17:20 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  We're going over the cliff (5+ / 0-)

        All of these offers and counteroffers are simply theater meant to position each side to avoid blame in the press.  Boehner does not have control over his caucus, he cannot deliver the votes on any deal Obama offers, and he's putting on a show to keep his job.  Boehner cannot and will not make a deal before he is re-elected as Speaker.

        For his part, Obama is making concessions to make himself seem reasonable and to maximize his leverage in the media.  He's been very careful not to offer a deal the Tea Party can go along with.

        There will be no deal before January 3.

        •  I Sure looks that Way (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          TomFromNJ

          My question for John Boehner has always Been:

          If the "Fiscal Pothole" is such a Bad thing, Why did Every
          Republican Vote for It ?

          I don't think the "Fiscal Pothole" is that Big a Deal.

          I think the entire Idea is Just another MYTH that some
          folks use to try to Force a Bad Deal to be Made.

          On Giving Advice: Smart People Don't Need It and Stupid People Don't Listen

          by Brian76239 on Tue Dec 18, 2012 at 10:45:58 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

        •  agree, Boehner has no power (0+ / 0-)

          start from there, look at what Obama is "offering" - no deal, we'll stumble over the curb and start all over again.

          Counting coup using the corporatist media megaphones to gain more advantage when the negotiations really begin next year.

    •  What has the other side "offered"? (7+ / 0-)

      Rejection after rejection and meanwhile moving the goal posts in their favor.

      "Given the choice between a Republican and someone who acts like a Republican, people will vote for a real Republican every time." Harry Truman

      by MargaretPOA on Tue Dec 18, 2012 at 10:09:31 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  How is it that we give the store away? (0+ / 0-)

      while the GOP gives away next to nothing.  And exactly why would any spending cuts be needed IF we are getting more revenue.  It's not as if the increase in revenue needs to be offset by cuts in spending.  Total nonsense.

      "The real wealth of a nation consists of the contributions of its people and nature." -- Rianne Eisler

      by noofsh on Tue Dec 18, 2012 at 10:21:10 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  White House sort of signalling that this deal is (6+ / 0-)

    pretty much it.

    •  I certainly hope so. (5+ / 0-)

      I wouldn't even have given him this. I would have started by taking things off my initial offer and sent the "new" offer back to him.

      Give blood. Play hockey.

      by flycaster on Tue Dec 18, 2012 at 10:05:26 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  Because of Boehner's reaction, they ought to tell (14+ / 0-)

      him the whole deal is now off the table.

      Boehner is crying about moving goal posts, and yet Obama moved the goal posts in his direction.  Time to take everything off the table, enjoy the Christmas break and come back in the new year.

      I can't understand this desperation to make a deal with him - yes it will suck for the unemployed, but things will be better in the new year with more Democrats in both houses of Congress and with Boehner dangling over the cliff and Cantor eagerly stepping on his fingers.

      •  ColoTim - Do you currently have a (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        SB1

        job?  I'm guessing you do with your cavalier statement.  I don't. As for things sucking for the unemployed, yes, it already does.

        •  I do, and yes, I have friends on extended (0+ / 0-)

          unemployment who will be hurt if there's no deal.  I've had various spells last decade with extended unemployment (I'm in high tech), so I know what value the checks are.  Yet I'm going to help out my friends if they get in trouble because of a government roadblock, but I believe the country as a whole will be worse off if Obama gives in to Boehner when he should be negotiating from strength.  Everyone will be worse off if there's the CPI.  Everyone will be worse off if the tax rates don't go up.

          When Boehner is forced to do a deal, the economy will pick back up because finally the country will have a plan.  All this dithering and delaying is hurting businesses being able to plan for the future and for government infrastructure spending to happen again.  That's what will help you get a job again, or at least something better than what the unemployment check provides.  Boehner won't have pressure until after January 1.

      •  Well A Big Deal (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Lovepolitics2008

        is preferrable because it takes a care of these big issues now rather than have to deal with the risks of going over the clift.  Obama has leverage now and he is trying to use it to get that bigger deal.

        Let's also remember that there is no guarantee of a deal next year.  On Jan 1, all of our taxes increase...both income and payroll.  Many will get hit with the AMT tax.  Unemployment benefits expire.  The sequesters start hitting both defense and domestic spending (inlcuding Medicare).  And the debt ceiling will need to be raised in a month or so.

        There will be a lot of hurt and uncertaintly and there is again no guarantee that a bigger deal will emerge to deal with this.  The GOP has shown themselves willing to go the riskyl unpopular route (like in 2011) and they still managed to keep control of the House.

        So gettting a big deal now with a few concessions as possible is ideal for Obama.

      •  Perhaps you haven't been looking at recent polls? (0+ / 0-)

        Some reputable ones show pluralities now blaming both POTUS and Thugs if we go off the curb.  And what have the sales #s been for this X-mass season?  I see articles saying deep discounts may be coming bc folks aren;t spending bc of tax-curb fears.  If that's true, then fears of real damage to the economy - no growth, rising U3, if not a full double dip - are likely growing.  And then there's the extended U-benefits, non-defense sequeser cuts, debt ceiling and other real immiedate costs from going over the curb.

        Which means both the politics and merits may be turning against the WH position.  Add to that the beltway and WallStreet and elite's demands for a deal rather than going off the curb...

        No coincidence that these developed happened since a number of 'distractions' exploded in the media taking public attention away from the details of the curb.... starting with Thugs nuking unions in MI.  

        And the media of course dropped all that but the sport-reporting and ran after the shiny objects.*

        Almost as if it were planned, eh?
        ________
        * And I don't mean the CT tragedy.  That's just life intruding.  And the polls starting turning 2 weeks ago.  The rest since 11/20 or so tho....
        I do have a question whether the completely appropriate disgust to Washington not being able to take the most commonsense action is not also affecting the curb negotiations.  It'd be strange if it didn't.

        •  I believe if Obama doesn't have the courage to (0+ / 0-)

          stick with his stated positions (Social Security is not part of this, taxes must go up on people making more than 200K individually or 250K as a couple), Boehner is going to make him continue to give away concessions and more concession and then cudgel the Democrats in 2014 because the only party that tells you what they're about and sticks to that is the Republican party - the Democrats tell you they're going to do things and then they cave to the Republicans time and time again.

          If Obama gives in to Boehner in significant ways, 2014 will be like 2010 all over again.

          •  Read the TPM article linked on mainpage econ diges (0+ / 0-)

            t.  What Kurgman says.

            That said, if this is just a bump on the road to a bigger WH cave then you might be correct.  I do not think it is.  I think this is likely the most WH will agree to, not the least.

            My question on chained-CPI is: how more or less accurate is it as a measure of inflation.   If more accurate, then it is not a cut but a drawback of unvoted and unwaranted raise that would otherwise occur.  Seems likely its is on balance less, and thefrefore less ac ut, but I don't know.

            And the questions still remain: Will going over the curb turn the public on Ds - especially remembering a debt ceiling disaster is right around the corner if we do nothing?  Will it hurt the economy more than a deal along the lines now being talked about (cause if we crap the economy again at  some pt the public will blame Ds as well, the quesiton being when and can Thugs hold that long)?  And, will going over the curb produce a better deal in the end?

            I really don't know the answers to those.  And I'm pretty sure no one else really does either.

            At this pt, given the stupidity and insanity of Thugs, I'm just glad I don't have BOs job.

        •  Don't bother. Fantasyland here. (0+ / 0-)

          Political reality probably too painful. Better putting all the blame on the President.

          This whole question of the President having all the leverage has always been wishful thinking. Republicans still have plenty of hostage-taking possibilities. The debt ceiling being the most powerful one.

    •  This time they're gonna stand firm! (4+ / 0-)

      Yeah right.

      Obama will capitulate.  It's what he does.  

      "When I was an alien, cultures weren't opinions" ~ Kurt Cobain, Territorial Pissings

      by Subterranean on Tue Dec 18, 2012 at 10:18:49 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  Riiiiiiiiiiight..... (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      maryabein

      If anything has been made clear, Obama only ever draws lines in the sand because they are so easily erased and moved. And this "deal" is already far too far. Again, please explain why cutting social security is even a legitimate part of a DEBT deal.

      "Given the choice between a Republican and someone who acts like a Republican, people will vote for a real Republican every time." Harry Truman

      by MargaretPOA on Tue Dec 18, 2012 at 10:30:20 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  Best answer? Let ALL the tax cuts expire. (16+ / 0-)

    Go over the fiscal curb.

    End of problem.

    •  Restore Reagan's tax rates! (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      chrismorgan

      I want my country back!

      Small varmints, if you will.

      by aztecraingod on Tue Dec 18, 2012 at 10:17:01 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  Damn right! (0+ / 0-)

      I would add, it actually is the best answer to let them stay expired.  That opens the door to addressing the sequester in a more reasonable manner.  Of course, it doesn't help on jobs, etc...  but that is another fight, another day.

      "The real wealth of a nation consists of the contributions of its people and nature." -- Rianne Eisler

      by noofsh on Tue Dec 18, 2012 at 10:18:13 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  noofsh - If we go into recession, which is (0+ / 0-)

        looking pretty likely, the "fight for another day" won't happen.  For G-d's sake, we've been waiting for "another day" since 2009!! Still not enough jobs!   A recession won't induce more demand.

    •  Exactly. Go over the fake "cliff" (0+ / 0-)

      Then address middle class tax cuts and so forth in the new Congress. That will be painful but less painful than what Obama has reportedly already offered.

      "Given the choice between a Republican and someone who acts like a Republican, people will vote for a real Republican every time." Harry Truman

      by MargaretPOA on Tue Dec 18, 2012 at 10:18:43 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  Enough, just go over the cliff and be done with it (0+ / 0-)

      As David Super points out in today's NY Times:

      But even those who understand this often misjudge the likely impact of these automatic program cuts, known as the sequester, and the tax changes. Indeed, a closer look at this much-feared budget buzz saw reveals it’s better for the country than any likely deal would be.
      Link: Bring on the Fiscal Cliff - David Super

      The difficulty lies not so much in developing new ideas as in escaping from old ones! - John Maynard Keynes

      by Do Something on Tue Dec 18, 2012 at 10:38:44 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  I virtually NEVER am an advocate of violence, (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    blue aardvark, MikePhoenix

    and I mean what I say only in a metaphorical sense:  but cut that bastard off at the knees!

  •  I wish Obama would negotiate in public (13+ / 0-)

    Sit down with Boehner and turn on the C-Span cameras.

    Economics is a social *science*. Can we base future economic decisions on math?

    by blue aardvark on Tue Dec 18, 2012 at 10:06:57 AM PST

  •  The President needs to put his man pants on (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    MariaSquared, joesig, MikePhoenix

    and just let the clock run out. Anything and everything else is appeasement of the refuseniks and betrayal of America.

    NO DEAL, JOHNNIE.

    •  I'd settle for him putting his reality pants on (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      MariaSquared, MikePhoenix, maryabein

      Offering to cut social security to address debt is like pouring water on a house in Seattle to put out a fire in Atlanta and expecting John Boehner to negotiate in good faith is like expecting Francisco Franco to make good on his promise.

      "Given the choice between a Republican and someone who acts like a Republican, people will vote for a real Republican every time." Harry Truman

      by MargaretPOA on Tue Dec 18, 2012 at 10:14:38 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Huh ? Now the Teabaggers can vote NO (0+ / 0-)

        because Obama is proposing Social Security cuts?   This has to be a mistake.

        They could not possibly be heading in that direction....could they??

        If the plutocrats begin the program, we will end it. -- Eugene Debs.

        by livjack on Tue Dec 18, 2012 at 10:22:14 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Try to follow me here: (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          maryabein

          Social Security. Has. Nothing. To. Do. With. DEBT. Period, end of story, zero, zip, nada. To offer it to the teabaggers is absurd and counter productive, no matter how they eventually vote on it. The only thing social security and our debt have in common is they both involve dollars.

          "Given the choice between a Republican and someone who acts like a Republican, people will vote for a real Republican every time." Harry Truman

          by MargaretPOA on Tue Dec 18, 2012 at 10:36:25 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

    •  That would be the logical thing to do (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      MikePhoenix, miracle11

      I just spent last hour calling Senators and Congressional Reps to oppose the President's plan (that Bone head rejected).  Is this the President's idea of rallying the troops behind him?  He really lost me on this one.  Is he really that afraid of tax rates going up across the board?

      So now he has to back-track and say that he made a painful offer and the GOP rejected it.  He also has to stop negotiating with the GOP.  Let the tax rates go up.

      "The real wealth of a nation consists of the contributions of its people and nature." -- Rianne Eisler

      by noofsh on Tue Dec 18, 2012 at 10:16:10 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  addendum... (0+ / 0-)

      Mr. President, no negotiations with terrorists, ever.

      Everybody ready? All together now - let's go over the cliff ant hill.

  •  Yeah, Obama is SO exploiting that leverage! (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Churchill, MikePhoenix, slinkerwink

    To help the GOP!

    Btw, who IS that guy in the image?

    "Liberty without virtue would be no blessing to us" - Benjamin Rush, 1777

    by kovie on Tue Dec 18, 2012 at 10:07:49 AM PST

  •  What about the estate tax? (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    mkor7, schnecke21

    That's the one I really want to see back to Pre-Bush levels. A large tax on estates over $10m or some other big number would go a long way toward undoing some of the wealth concentration, and at a cost of $0 to 99%.

  •  Hail - all aboard for the Nina, Pinta, and Santa (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    MKinTN, maryabein

    Maria for the fiscal edge of the earth. We'll get their any minute now....that edge is coming right up...anyy day now... fiscal cliff ...Hey up in the crow's nest. can you see the edge yet?...No?,,,any day now... fiscal cliff... right over.. hey, look behind us. Was that the fiscal cliff?... no?... any day now...

    Slow thinkers - keep right

    by Dave the Wave on Tue Dec 18, 2012 at 10:09:31 AM PST

  •  Boehner made a mistake with this statement (6+ / 0-)

    The White House made a pretty swift rejection of the Plan B which puts Boehner in a bind.  Boehner will never be able to get the votes from his caucus for any tax increase and Obama just called his bluff.  When we do go over the cliff, Obama and his pollsters will feel comfortable that they have met the 'moving half way' threshold that they believe voters are looking for in order to make their assessment of the process.

    Alternative rock with something to say: http://www.myspace.com/globalshakedown

    by khyber900 on Tue Dec 18, 2012 at 10:09:50 AM PST

  •  The president is threatening no one. (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    richardak, slinkerwink, chrismorgan

    That is what the GOP is doing yet again. Those fools have the power of the purse. If we go over the cliff it is their fault and theirs alone. The president can suggest and veto if he thinks what the congress is doing is wrong.

    Give blood. Play hockey.

    by flycaster on Tue Dec 18, 2012 at 10:10:30 AM PST

  •  I'm in no mood for this bullshit anymore, NONE (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    mkor7, MikePhoenix, maryabein

    80 % of Success is Just Showing Up !

    by Churchill on Tue Dec 18, 2012 at 10:12:56 AM PST

    •  Nor am I (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Churchill

      We have real issues to address in this country like gun violence.  Not this fucking contrived GOP crisis whose only goal is to impose austerity while protecting the super-rich.  Come on Mr. President, stop this stupid negotiating.

      "The real wealth of a nation consists of the contributions of its people and nature." -- Rianne Eisler

      by noofsh on Tue Dec 18, 2012 at 10:43:49 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  The Deal (0+ / 0-)

    patty cake
    patty cake
    Bakers man,
    Bake me a cake as fast as you can,
    Roll it,
    Pat it,
    And mark it with a B,
    Put it in the oven for baby and Me.

    Things work out best for those who make the best of the way things work out.

    by winsock on Tue Dec 18, 2012 at 10:12:57 AM PST

  •  Time to get serious. Fuck Boehner (0+ / 0-)

    80 % of Success is Just Showing Up !

    by Churchill on Tue Dec 18, 2012 at 10:13:24 AM PST

  •  Of course he is going on the attack! (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    MariaSquared, MikePhoenix

    Damn it when will the white house.  Obama just let the GOP off the hook with this bullshit.  So now instead of fighting for something worthwhile, I find all my energy absorbed in opposing the President!  Is that what he really wanted?

    "The real wealth of a nation consists of the contributions of its people and nature." -- Rianne Eisler

    by noofsh on Tue Dec 18, 2012 at 10:13:27 AM PST

  •  Weird to be cheering for Boehner. (7+ / 0-)

    But I hope he destroys these talks faster than he's destroying his liver.

    "Michael Moore, who was filming a movie about corporate welfare called 'Capitalism: A Love Story,' sought and received incentives."

    by Bush Bites on Tue Dec 18, 2012 at 10:14:24 AM PST

  •  the President better be threatening (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Bush Bites, MariaSquared, MikePhoenix

    to raise everybody's taxes before he gives into the absurdity of the Republican positions.   That's what we elected him to do.   He's already given more than he should have given what the Republicans offered.

  •  President Obama (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Churchill

    Go on TV and tell the people the truth.

    Or

    Send Bill Clinton - he seems to cut through the crap.

    P.S.

    Make sure you do it during a football game .... that way even the R's will tune in.

    Politics is the entertainment branch of industry. Frank Zappa

    by Da Rock on Tue Dec 18, 2012 at 10:16:08 AM PST

  •  I'd rather go off the fiscle cliff than this B.S. (0+ / 0-)

    80 % of Success is Just Showing Up !

    by Churchill on Tue Dec 18, 2012 at 10:19:26 AM PST

  •  Front Page (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    dances with beagles, slinkerwink

    inches would be much better spent putting pressure on Democrats not to cave than on yet another post about those hilarious Republicans and their antics.

  •  Plurality (at least) would blame both if we go ove (0+ / 0-)

    r the cliff, according to recent polls.  I have to believe this is what is driving the WH concessions.

    And the reason Bonehead's office keeps this nonsense up.

    Bc he knows the media has mis-reported this thing from the 2nd week, focusing on 'horse-race'and sports-story style - is there movement? which way? who scored? - rather than simple truths like 'Thugs caused this', 'Thugs are rejecting the election results', and 'if you don't want you taxes to go up, tell Thugs to pass the damn bill sitting in their lap from the fraking Senate already instead of whinning, ya fraking plutocrat's toilet slave'.

  •  to be fair... (0+ / 0-)

    can't blame Obama for CPI now, Pelosi told him they would be ok with giving in on it. I want to see how they shield lower icome people from the cuts before I say it's an awful deal.

    After Obama's eighth straight victory, Penn told reporters: "Winning Democratic primaries is not a qualification or a sign of who can win the general election.

    by nevadadem on Tue Dec 18, 2012 at 10:27:26 AM PST

  •  If it's Obama and Boehner, who reps the Dems? (0+ / 0-)

    The President is the world's worst negotiator.  This one is simple: "Here's the fiscal cliff, Johnny, which is 100% in my control: what do you propose to slightly lower the huge increases in taxes on the rich and capital gains and inheritance?  And it better include tax cuts for those making less than 250k, extension of longterm unemployment benefits, and smart infrastructure spending or don't bother wasting both our time."

    How hard can it be to just walk away until 1 January?

    To avoid starting dumb wars, punish the dumb people who vote for them.

    by joesig on Tue Dec 18, 2012 at 10:30:14 AM PST

  •  OOOOOOOOOO.K., heh (0+ / 0-)

    It's time for everyone of us to start our christmas . Yes really, folks it's christmas time. Time for family, food, and for those who still imbibe, rum and coke. The deal? This is gonna happen one way or another. A teaspoon of sugar, less staring at the tv, newspaper, blogs, and whatever else
    there is that agitates us, may be in order here. This last election, last month, was a tiresome one. Take some time off. It can't be fun for obama either, why? from his first day in office he has been receiving fire from the reichwing and occasionaly from the "links" wing. Time for a break. We are gonna O.K. Ignore the reichwing and encourage and demand better from our side. There's a reason some people study psychiatry, and psychology. I am not one of those people.
    Think about the things you want to do. the obverse, do not think about the thing you do not want to do. Lets remind the dems that we want the best deal, and that we STILL have the strongest hand in this fight.
    We need a side bar here at KOS for musical interpretation of current events.

    The Democrats now own everything from the center right to the far left. the republicans and the filthy robberbarons occupy the extreme right fringe.

    by longtimelurker on Tue Dec 18, 2012 at 10:32:17 AM PST

  •  Did I blink? (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    maryabein, schnecke21

    I thought Social Security, Medicare and Medicaid were OFF the table.  

    •  You didn't blink but the WH did (0+ / 0-)

      or so it seems.  I sense the awful influence of centrist groups again.  I want names.  I want to know what so called Dems are pushing this deal.  I want to hear that it's Simpson-Bowles and the CEO's that are pushing this.  Then we all need to get on these people.  I am tired of outside influences having more of a voice than the people that got this President elected.

      "The real wealth of a nation consists of the contributions of its people and nature." -- Rianne Eisler

      by noofsh on Tue Dec 18, 2012 at 11:08:42 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  I'll take "operative word" for a thousand, Alex (0+ / 0-)
    That fact gives the president enormous leverage. He should use it.

    The dire straits facing America are not due poor people having too much money

    by Anthony Page aka SecondComing on Tue Dec 18, 2012 at 10:34:26 AM PST

  •  Just walk away. (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    maryabein

    Take a Christmas break. Let the cliff come and go. When the debt ceiling come due, let it go too. Anything short of this will not rile up the American public enough that the R's will loose what little credibility they have. Maybe then they will help govern in a responsible way. Nah! However, what's happening now is BS of the highest order to the point it is comical.

  •  Let the Wealthy pay their share! (0+ / 0-)

    This is sickening to me.  Not only do the wealthy need to pay their share, they also need to give extra for all the $ they have made during the last 12 years.  All the rips offs, etc.  I know that I'm not the only one who feels this way... and to have long term justice, this has to be addressed.

    So bring on the tax increases for the middle class, for now, if that gets the rich paying more.  Let's do it.

    One step at a time.

  •  He' a great campaigner but a lousy negotiator. (0+ / 0-)

    One major advantage of a president is the media at their command. Bush/Cheney used the bully pulpit with utmost efficiency. President Obama is much too polite and terribly ineffective when up against the propaganda of  neoconservatives. He' a great campaigner but a lousy negotiator.

  •  There is no deal to be made right now (0+ / 0-)

    This is just beltway optics to be the last one to present a "reasonable" offer before we go off the cliff.

     Republicans in particular desperately need to show they were willing to move on taxes so they have some protection when the recriminations come and their phones ring off the hook from constituents wondering why their taxes went up.

  •  Boehner Lowers Ransom, But Still Holding Hostages (0+ / 0-)

    So now the 98% below $250,000 don't get a tax cut extension unless the 1% (approximately) making between $250,000 and $1 million get an extension too.  How cruel it is for President Obama to ask those above $250,000 and under $1 million to pay a little more in taxes.  Those poor almost millionaires.  

    "Some men see things as they are and ask, 'Why?' I dream of things that never were and ask, 'Why not?"

    by Doctor Who on Tue Dec 18, 2012 at 10:51:58 AM PST

  •  Mad as heck that President Obama (0+ / 0-)

    but Social Security on the table, with with Boehner announcing this a.m. that tax increases should being at the $1 million level, it reveals that Obama was the "reasonable one."

    We will go over the cliff -- just not so certain about how it will be resolved in January.

    "Since when did obeying corporate power become patriotic." Going the Distance

    by Going the Distance on Tue Dec 18, 2012 at 10:52:17 AM PST

  •  Too many commenters playing politics (0+ / 0-)

    There are too many people around here who see this only under the lens of Democratic Versus Republican. This isn't a game or a spectator sport and too many people are treating it like there aren't actually real people involved. This is part of the problem, see. People need to believe in something and stick with it. I'm not talking about "purity", I'm talking about treating policy as being different than choosing sides in a football game. I've tried to make that case but all too often I'm being answered with a "how does this hurt Democrats?", or similar. I don't care how it affects politicians, Democratic or Republican because in the end, they aren't going to need Social Security or Medicare. This isn't a fucking game and I'm not going to waste anymore time trying to get that through. Good day.

    "Given the choice between a Republican and someone who acts like a Republican, people will vote for a real Republican every time." Harry Truman

    by MargaretPOA on Tue Dec 18, 2012 at 10:53:17 AM PST

  •  So (0+ / 0-)

    the President got okey-doked again.

    and there was no need for any of it because Boehner was losing.  And we were ready to go off the cliff.

    Suddenly he's making concessions?

    Oh, and I bet Boehner promised that he would hold the football steady, er, support raising the debt ceiling, too.

    Change will not come if we wait for some other person or some other time. We are the ones we've been waiting for. We are the change that we seek. Barack Obama

    by delphine on Tue Dec 18, 2012 at 11:03:54 AM PST

  •  who are these unnamed Dems that are pushing (0+ / 0-)

    the President to make a deal?  I read reference to that.  I want names!  Then I want to contact each and every one of them and have them explain publicly why the social safety net must be cut when we are getting more revenue.

    "The real wealth of a nation consists of the contributions of its people and nature." -- Rianne Eisler

    by noofsh on Tue Dec 18, 2012 at 11:06:08 AM PST

  •  No Surprise (0+ / 0-)

    The President is negotiating with himself, just as he has done in the past.

  •  Boehner just raised taxes for almost all Americans (0+ / 0-)

    By rejecting an extension of the 2% payroll tax holiday.

    "Victory means exit strategy, and it's important for the president to explain to us what the exit strategy is." - George W Bush

    by jfern on Tue Dec 18, 2012 at 11:28:23 AM PST

  •  Threaten? F-U! (0+ / 0-)

    How dare this little orange asswipe use language like that, when Republican refusal to do a god-damned thing to keep our kids safe in public schools "threatens" them with being shot by assault rifles shooting tumbling hollow point ammo from huge ammo clips that costs less than $10 a loaded clip online?
    How do these people freaking sleep at night?

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