And, was surprised that the process appeared to be frighteningly easy.
I registered with an online gun dealer website, did a little shopping, picked out an AK47, went through the entire process but didn't give my credit card on the final page of the sale. During the website registration process and the process of buying the gun, I was surprised at how little information they needed from me.
Update: Both gun's we looked at last night, including the one we came close to purchasing are no longer available, one appears to be sold, the other is gone. Several others ARE available- I've taken screenshots of these if they, too, disappear or change:
Vepr K .223
Item Number: 945037345 Listed in category: AK-47 Rifles (and copies) > Full Stock
Seller since: Aug. 2002 User level: Verified (accepts money orders)
FFL dealer: No
I have an excellent condition VEPR K in .223 that was purchased nib by me in 2003. This is an beautiful rifle that has seen very few rounds. Rifle has Krebs peep sight and a Robinson Arms flash hider installed as well as sling swivel studs in forearm and stock. Comes with the following mags, 4 circle 10 Bulgarian .223 waffles, 19 AK-74 bakelites (11 painted by robinson arms) 1 circle 10 slabside
Shipping terms: 25.00 shipped (in conus - continental united states)
____
Saiga 308 with strike force stock
Seller since: Sep. 2012 User level: Basic FFL dealer: No
I have a saiga 308, fully converted to ak configuration with an arsenal trigger group, threaded barrel and ak74 type muzzle break, ATI strikeforce stock, and a 24 round and factory magazine. This gun is 2moa with steel-cased ammo, and much more accurate with better ammunition. Super reliable, never a single hiccup. Wonderful gun, I'm only selling it so that I can downgrade to something a little cheaper to feed.
(The pistol in the picture is not for sale.)
_______
not AK47:
H&K SL-8 NEW IN BOX Item Number: 921454458 Listed in category: Heckler & Koch Rifles > Tactical Seller since: Jul. 2004
(seller takes money orders)
HECKLER & KOCH MODEL SL-8 - Black furniture .223, semi automatic rifle. With all paperwork and HK tools. NEW IN BOX $2480.00 WITH FREE DELIVERY. CREDIT CARD SAME AS CASH. Shipping terms: FREE SHIPPING (accepts money orders) User level: Trusted Seller FFL dealer: No
______________
After selecting the gun, I clicked the "buy it" button, and added it to my shopping cart, got as far into the checkout as I could go w/out the final screen that involved my credit card. I needed to have my address/credit card verified for $1.99, after that I could use the card anytime.
There was no form or place to give social security number, nothing about a background check, nothing even asking me to verify that I was over 18.
I purchased cigars online as a gift once and had to have my age verified. But, if I had paid the cost of the gun and shipping with a "verified" credit card, I could have purchased an AK47, and had it shipped.
Throughout the process of registration and verification, there was information about how to sell guns on their website.
Selling on this site is easy, you can do the shipping yourself or (if you want to obey certain laws,) they will set you up with someone who has a license to sell.
IF YOU ARE A SELLER:
Once you have set up an account in one of their "gun-friendly" banks, you can set up your own store, a lot like eBay.
When you've sold a gun you can:
Ship it yourself - (making an assumtion you will follow the law)
or they can make it entirely legal for you:
Use a "GunsAmerica Dropoff Location":
How it Works
Option 1 - Sell it Yourself
The basic premise of the GA Drop Off Location is that a local FFL Dealer handles the transfer of the gun for you. That way the gun is legally out of your hands, into his "bound book", and out from him to another FFL dealer in the buyer´s state. So you, as the true seller of the gun, have established a clear paper trail for the gun that you need not ever maintain (even if an FFL dealer gives up his license his bound book is turned into the ATF). This is the simplest approach because nothing changes with your interaction with GunsAmerica and the buyer. You get to describe the gun, decide who it is sold to and how much it is sold for. And if the gun doesn´t sell there is no transfer of the gun back to you. You also pay a simple up front fee, not a commission on the sale itself.
Option 2 is to sell via a consignment with a dealer.
There is no way for anyone to know how the seller ships.
When I registered with the site, the following text was in a box at bottom the confirmation email:
Use your FFL to make money and help to guarantee success for the future of gun freedoms for all Americans by providing incoming and outgoing transfer services. Keep interstate gun sales alive!
A quick note about FFLs and gun sales:
All guns manufactured AFTER 1898 that fire fixed cartridge ammunition must be shipped to an FFL gun dealer who must send, fax, or email you his license before you may ship the gun. This applies to all guns but true antiques from before 1898 and modern percussion and flintock firearms
Yes they tell you the laws - but there is no way to know how an unlicensed seller will transfer the gun. Several give their phone numbers, asking you to call to make arrangements.
My AK47 would have been shipped for $25. The shipping details had nothing about a GA location, where several sellers make that clear. I assumed he would ship it himself.
This online store had a wide variety of available guns, semi automatic pistols, antiques, some sort of military sharpshooter setup for $17,000 and anything in between.
Any loopholes here? Should it be this easy? How can this process possibly be changed? There are so many websites that sell guns this way, it is so anonymous, it is almost worse than a gun show. Will the NRA work help to find fool-proof way to be sure that any and all sales of guns are completed only AFTER a background check? Hopefully the loss of so many innocent lives in Newtown, CT will be a catalyst for change.
Another Update Turns out, this is nothing new:
While all licensed dealers are required to subject their sellers to a background check, the same rule does not apply to unlicensed, private dealers, many of whom use sites like Armslist, Gun Listings, and Glock Talk to sell weapons.
and
Rossen Reports: Anyone can buy guns, no questions asked
Buying guns online, whether from online auction-style selling sites or online classified ads, involves known loopholes that need to be closed and is a practice wide-open to people who simply ignore the laws that apply. After spending time on these websites last night I was more than disturbed. The ease of the process I followed to buy a gun surprised me.
Many of us haven't been paying enough attention to this; after each mass killing we shake our heads, the issue fades, and we move on to something else.
This latest shooting nightmare has caused more of us to look at how and why this happened. How are people getting guns, any guns, without background checks? Why does anyone need an automatic weapon? Where are they purchased and how? What are the laws and why aren't they followed? How does a gun dealer in LA insure that I have the permit required to own a gun, any gun, here in MA? Does he or she have to?
Regardless of which "side" you fall on this, I hope we can agree to some extent that this has to change.
Hug your children, thank a teacher.
6:17 AM PT: Once again, as someone fairly new to Daily Kos, I am surprised at how the gun enthusiasts here are so quick to fault this dairy as deceptive, accusation similar to those made when I wrote about the NFL player who killed his girlfriend.
Before I rush off to work, let me clarify:
1. I know nothing about guns.
2. I was shocked an AK47 was something you could buy online - regardless of the process.
3. I simply wrote about the process I experienced.
4. I searched the site for information about what a BUYER needs before BUYING on the site. Did I miss something? If I did leave me a link.
5. I followed a link from the email sent to me when I registered with the site. The email included a section inviting me to sell online. I clicked that link and found that if you sell a gun you can:
Ship it Yourself
... Or Use a GunsAmerica Dropoff Location
How it Works
Option 1 - Sell it Yourself
The basic premise of the GA Drop Off Location is that a local FFL Dealer handles the transfer of the gun for you. That way the gun is legally out of your hands, into his "bound book", and out from him to another FFL dealer in the buyer´s state. So you, as the true seller of the gun, have established a clear paper trail for the gun that you need not ever maintain (even if an FFL dealer gives up his license his bound book is turned into the ATF). This is the simplest approach because nothing changes with your interaction with GunsAmerica and the buyer. You get to describe the gun, decide who it is sold to and how much it is sold for. And if the gun doesn´t sell there is no transfer of the gun back to you. You also pay a simple up front fee, not a commission on the sale itself.
Option 2 - Sell on Consignment
Many of our GA Drop Off Location dealers will take the gun in on consignment for you and handle the sale completely. The gun may be sold in their store, on their website or through an ad at GunsAmerica. Those terms you work out with them and the fees for the sale are stated in advance. You also must take into account that the gun might not sell and may have to be transferred back to you. The dealer himself may want to buy the gun outright as well, so your options are varied from dealer to dealer.
Click Here to find the closest drop off location
FFL Dealers Click Here to become a GunsAmerica Drop Off Location
6. Perhaps the actual process of receiving the gun is more difficult than it appears, but the listing for this gun includes a shipping cost of $25. The shipping tab has nothing further - nothing in the description tells me I have to go to a dealer. The FFS dealer information was included in the information for sellers, not buyers.
7. The tutorial for selling shows a place to enter an FFL license number -after- you register to sell - optional.
8. No where on the sellers page does it indicate the seller is licensed. (I was wrong here - there is a place, one had listed "no" and it is now changed the other was yes. Both of those guns are NO LONGER available - the ones above are, and they are sold by people who are not licensed. Everyone who insists that these guns, whether automatic or simple single shot handgun, have to be delivered through someone w/an FFL license and that the person holding that license would do a background check, how do you know that would actually happen? This is a known issue
9. Visit the site and show me I am wrong. The store itself states the law in the registration confirmation email. How it's enforced *appears" to be rather loose.
I did this to see if I could buy ANY gun w/out a background check online. It appears that this process is similar to a gun show.
If I am wrong, show me, go through the process yourself and show me that I can't simply check the right boxes -whether the information is true or not - and buy a gun, many kinds of guns, online.