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"I keep swearing to myself that I won't comment on your gun crap anymore."

So said a Facebook acquaintance who seems to think that the reason zie's not afraid of crime is because zie has a gun in zir house, after I provided evidence that violent crime in the US continues to decline and that I won't accept "I'm scared of crime" as an excuse to own a gun. Apparently this offends zir.

Never mind that crime rates in the US have consistently dropped by more than a percent every year since 1990. Never mind that having a gun in your home makes it MORE likely that you'll die a gun-related death (whether homicide, suicide, or accidental). No, no. HAVING A GUN IN THE HOUSE MAKES ZIR FEEL SAFE.

I'm glad I don't live in zir world.

When asked if I'd feel afraid to visit zir home knowing there was a gun in it, I answered quite candidly. Yes, I would be afraid, and furthermore, I'd decline any invitation as long as the gun was in the home.

That's when the "gun crap" comment emerged. I'm this close to just blocking the idiot and having done with it.

My gun crap? How about your gun crap? Your unsupported, fear-based, idiotic gun crap - yes, that gun crap.

See, here's the thing about gun owners that I really don't get. By owning a gun and saying it's for protection, the gun owner (to my way of thinking) is admitting two things:

1. They are willing to KILL ANOTHER HUMAN BEING if they feel threatened enough.

2. They see nothing wrong with #1.

To me, that makes them dangerous and unsafe to be around. So you're damned tootin' I'm not going to go near your house if you have a gun in it. If that offends you, I guess my friendship isn't as important as the fantasy safety you feel from having a big bad gun in your home. Now I know. My life is not as important as your fictional safety. Good to know.

(For what it's worth, my response to the "gun crap" comment was: "Then don't. I'm sick of reading yours." I can't wait to see what zir next pathetic rejoinder will be.)

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Comment Preferences

  •  Tip Jar (16+ / 0-)

    "Compassion is not weakness, and concern for the unfortunate is not socialism." - Hubert Humphrey

    by Killer of Sacred Cows on Sat Dec 22, 2012 at 02:43:43 PM PST

  •  I have a close relative who is a gun owner. (9+ / 0-)

    This person does not own a gun for 'protection' at this point in time, but did (and even had a concealed carry permit) back when 'zie' was a bank courier (no longer is).  I think I might start a convo about why 'zie' still has a pistol, and if maybe it's time to get rid of it.  

    For all of the possible activism routes out there, one on one conversations and suggestions to friends and relatives about such might end up being our best tools to actually getting guns out of our neighborhoods.

  •  The fantasy of killing... (7+ / 0-)

    is a horrible thing, and really bugs me that many people cannot tell the difference between fantasy and reality.

    In Fantasy, and training, the target is hit and drops.  

    In Reality:  There is often a LOT of screaming involved.

    Ah hell with it, I've only seen an accurate portrayal of a gunshot death in ONE movie...

    It's not damn heroic.

    I don't blame Christians. I blame Stupid. Which sadly is a much more popular religion these days.

    by detroitmechworks on Sat Dec 22, 2012 at 02:54:34 PM PST

  •  I'm a gun owner. I own two rifles. (19+ / 0-)

    Both are locked in a safe which requires both a key and a combination to open.

    My ammunition is stored elsewhere.  No one would have much luck finding it if they burgled my home, and if they did find it, they'd have a hell of a time breaking into or removing that safe either.

    When I did not have the resources to store my weapons and ammunition this securely, I kept them at the home of someone who did have those resources.

    You're not talking about "gun owners".

    You're just talking about some kook you know who owns a gun, and labeling tens of millions of people.

    "Furthermore, if you think this would be the very very last cut ever if we let it happen, you are a very confused little rabbit." cai

    by JesseCW on Sat Dec 22, 2012 at 02:55:46 PM PST

    •  Why do you own guns? (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Avila, Joy of Fishes, Zaq, Kevskos

      Why?

      Is there another reason, a valid reason, that isn't "I'll shoot another human being if they threaten me"?

      You say rifles. I assume you mean the kind you hunt game with. Although I'm not good with hunting for sport, I accept it.

      And you take all necessary precautions. I doubt most people who have guns in their home bother, or we wouldn't have nearly as many gun deaths in homes as we do.

      "Compassion is not weakness, and concern for the unfortunate is not socialism." - Hubert Humphrey

      by Killer of Sacred Cows on Sat Dec 22, 2012 at 03:10:17 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Many people do "bother". (7+ / 0-)

        Not enough, though.  Which is why we need better laws on the books on requiring, at a minimum, trigger locks.

        It's also why we need to hold people criminally negligent if they don't reasonable steps to keep their weapons out of the hands of children or those they know to be mentally ill or emotionally unbalanced.

        I'm a big guy.  I'm not unfamiliar with violence.  I don't feel I need a gun to defend myself in my home.

        I will kill another person if have to in order to defend myself or another....but I don't go through life looking for opportunities to do so.

        If I had to deal with an intruder you can be sure I wouldn't be rushing around in the dark trying to get a gun out and load it.

        I own firearms for many of the same reasons I own half a dozen bows.  They're not for home defense either.

        "Furthermore, if you think this would be the very very last cut ever if we let it happen, you are a very confused little rabbit." cai

        by JesseCW on Sat Dec 22, 2012 at 03:22:01 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  You're unusual, then. (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Avila, Kevskos

          And I don't understand why you would want to own a firearm at all, but at least you take the necessary precautions.

          I do not understand your willingness to kill another human being. I could not and would not do it regardless of the provocation. I was raised pacifist, and I firmly believe that it is immoral to kill anyone for any reason (that includes the death penalty). There are other ways to subdue an attacker that do not require shooting or killing him.

          "Compassion is not weakness, and concern for the unfortunate is not socialism." - Hubert Humphrey

          by Killer of Sacred Cows on Sat Dec 22, 2012 at 03:30:52 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  No, I'm not at all unusual. I know a lot of (9+ / 0-)

            gun owners.  I speak to them about a shared hobby.

            I'm not exceptional in storing my weapons securely.

            I sincerely doubt that you've ever been very close to being killed by another human being.

            I could be wrong, of course.  But I have, on more than one occasion, been attacked by people who were intent on ending my life.

            I did my level best to return the favor. While I am profoundly grateful that no one died in those encounters, I know that I would kill to defend myself.

            There are other ways to subdue an attacker that do not require shooting or killing him.
            Not always.

            "Furthermore, if you think this would be the very very last cut ever if we let it happen, you are a very confused little rabbit." cai

            by JesseCW on Sat Dec 22, 2012 at 03:44:34 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  I would not change my mind (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Avila, Kevskos

              even if I lived in the worst inner-city area in the country.

              I will not kill another human being.

              I have been attacked with a baseball bat outside a gay pride festival. Fortunately, there were other people there who were able to subdue the guy. Nobody pulled a gun.

              And I'm glad of that, because I will not kill another human being.

              I've also been raped at knifepoint. It was a terrifying, degrading experience that took me quite a while to recover from and get past.

              And I still would not kill another human being.

              So please don't tell me that I've never been in a situation where my life was in danger. I have been, several times. It did not change my mind. The fact that it changed yours - well. Not much I can say there.

              "Compassion is not weakness, and concern for the unfortunate is not socialism." - Hubert Humphrey

              by Killer of Sacred Cows on Sat Dec 22, 2012 at 03:49:38 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  I don't recall when I said it changed (10+ / 0-)

                my mind.

                I've never been of the opinion that my life is worth less than the life of someone who wants to kill me.

                I had my lung punctured and my skull fractured.  The reason I frequently "drop" words from my comments (and I do it when I talk, too) is that I suffered brain damage.  The reason I wasn't killed is that I fought.

                Compliance isn't a  viable survival strategy when you're dealing with people whose intent is to kill you.   Not just willing to kill you to achieve some other aim, but intent only on that objective.

                There aren't always a bunch of other people to save you.

                Like you said, you're lucky other people stepped in.

                "Furthermore, if you think this would be the very very last cut ever if we let it happen, you are a very confused little rabbit." cai

                by JesseCW on Sat Dec 22, 2012 at 04:10:09 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

          •  I don't think he's unusual at all; (5+ / 0-)

            I own guns and I don't sit around salivating at the chance to kill people. I'm actually pretty laid-back and Zen... ish. Sarcastic, yes, but overall pretty laid-back.

            I think you have a very erroneous perception of what "gun owners" are all like. We're not a monolithic bloc of hive minded people that get daily marching orders uploaded into our brains from the NRA. In fact, the NRA only represents a tiny fraction of most gun owners. They'd like you to believe, however, that they are the only voice for gun owners everywhere... but they're not.

            I hate to say this, but I think it is very arrogant and narcissistic to just make blanket assumptions about any group of people that are different from you just because you don't understand them. You... are, kinda, coming across like that.

            •  I think that you have the erroneous perception. (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Avila, Kevskos

              When statistics show that people are 1.5 to 2.5 times more likely to suffer death by gun if there's a gun in the home, it stands to reason that most gun owners are not nearly as mindful about what that means as you and JesseCW apparently are.

              "Compassion is not weakness, and concern for the unfortunate is not socialism." - Hubert Humphrey

              by Killer of Sacred Cows on Sat Dec 22, 2012 at 06:23:57 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  Mmmm... you're not seeing the point (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                dewley notid, JesseCW

                I'm trying to make, but that... is expected.

                My real point was more in the 3rd paragraph, but don't trouble yourself at this point.

                •  I got it (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Kevskos

                  Loud and clear.  I'm not surprised it's falling on deaf ears.

                  "It is never too late to be what you might have been." -- George Eliot

                  by paulitics on Sat Dec 22, 2012 at 07:27:14 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                •  I saw that (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Avila, Kevskos

                  but I don't think that trying to keep myself safe by avoiding houses with guns in them is any more arrogant or narcissistic than the claim that one must be allowed the right to shoot other people in the name of self-defense. If anything, I'd call the second claim far more arrogant and narcissistic than anything I've said here.

                  Also, you have not refuted my point. Do you concede that homes with guns in them are a more risky place than homes without, or do you have alternate statistics to back up your assertions?

                  "Compassion is not weakness, and concern for the unfortunate is not socialism." - Hubert Humphrey

                  by Killer of Sacred Cows on Sat Dec 22, 2012 at 07:28:37 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

              •  When there's a gun in the home, people are (0+ / 0-)

                more likely to commit suicide with a gun.

                But they aren't more likely to commit suicide.  

                That massively skews the numbers, since 55% of all gun deaths are suicides.  

                This is the one kind of killing which we know we can't prevent by restricting fire arms.  Countries that have strictly controlled access, or even effectively banned private ownership, have not seen decreases in their overall suicide rate.

                600 people were killed in accidental shootings in 2010.  I have no idea how many of them involved a gun in their own home.  

                Every one of those lives matters and we can reduce that number with good legislation - but more than 60 million Americans live in homes with guns.  That would make it a 1 in 600,000 chance, at most.

                Good policy does not result from legislating on the basis of emotional relationships to inanimate objects - a point I have to keep making RKBA group diaries.

                "Furthermore, if you think this would be the very very last cut ever if we let it happen, you are a very confused little rabbit." cai

                by JesseCW on Sun Dec 23, 2012 at 09:34:56 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

              •  "1.5 to 2.5 times more likely"? (0+ / 0-)

                Do you not realize what tiny odds those are?

                "Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity, and I am not sure about the universe." -- Albert Einstein

                by Neuroptimalian on Sun Dec 23, 2012 at 01:42:50 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

          •  Wait. I think I see where you're coming from. (5+ / 0-)

            Do you think that the willingness to risk one life (the attacker's) to save others shows callous indifference?

            One common finding at the scene of self-defense shootings is that the person who has just saved his or her life has hurled the gun away in horror.

            Anyone who doesn't work hard to avoid such situations scares me, too.

            •  Yes, I do. (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Avila, Kevskos

              And the fact that so many who have never been put in that position seem to think that it's okay if they ever are is, to me, a big part of the problem.

              "Compassion is not weakness, and concern for the unfortunate is not socialism." - Hubert Humphrey

              by Killer of Sacred Cows on Sat Dec 22, 2012 at 10:54:45 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  So, you would prefer to let a loved one die... (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                exlrrp, Joy of Fishes

                ...rather than take the life of the person on the verge of killing that loved one? Gotta say that you and I have a very different view of "callous indifference."

                Don't tell me what you believe, show me what you do and I will tell you what you believe.

                by Meteor Blades on Sat Dec 22, 2012 at 11:48:07 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  I would do whatever I could to protect them (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Kevskos, JesseCW

                  but I cannot kill anyone.

                  Stand between them and the shooter, yes. I can and would do that. Tackle the shooter and try to stop him that way, yes, I can and would do that.

                  But I cannot kill anyone.

                  "Compassion is not weakness, and concern for the unfortunate is not socialism." - Hubert Humphrey

                  by Killer of Sacred Cows on Sat Dec 22, 2012 at 11:54:38 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

    •  exemplary practices (5+ / 0-)

      and also ones that are recommended by most every responsible gun ownership training program.

      I believe that before anyone even considers owning a gun they show first know their own minds/behavior and second should carefully proscribe under which conditions and where they might use that gun, train for those conditions and never vary from one's own rules. Fwiw those conditions may forbid the owner from ever taking a shot at a human being or in any direction of another human being.

  •  That is extreme and very weird. (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Tom Seaview

    Just my two sense. Cents. Whatever.

    (If I ever invite you to a party at my house, I promise not to tell you about the guns I may or may not have.)

  •  Now that I've read more - I will kill another (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    dewley notid

    human being in a NY second if it means saving a kid from harm. NY second.

    P.S. I don't own guns. I point, laugh at, mock with happy viciousness my friends who talk all gun tough about the right to protect their kids! - while fighting better gun laws. But you are taking some very extreme positions. Your right - but it should be noted.

  •  Are zir and zie different people? (0+ / 0-)

    And by the way: Did the world end?

  •  hold on. I own guns (12+ / 0-)

    Two pistols and two single shot 22 rifles. None of them have been fired in many decades.

    I live deep in the woods. We already had one break-in on my street. . .the homeowner came home and the thief ran right past the garage I was working in, then convinced an elderly neighbor he needed a lift to the gas station. It could be a long time for the police to get here.

    Would I shoot someone? First, I would hope they would just run like hell. But if I had to shoot to protect my son from being raped and my wife killed. . .because yes indeedy, there are people just that crazy out there. . .then you betcha, I would indeed pull the trigger. It would pain me to do so, and I would hate myself afterwards, but I would to protect my family.

    I am not full of fear. I don't watch Faux "News" and don't belong to the lying NRA. I don't even particularly like my guns, though I do like target practice with the 22's and I am one hell of a crack shot.

    I would like to see sensible gun control. You see, I live in REALITY.

    •  So you own guns, (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Avila

      and you're willing to kill another person if you feel it's necessary.

      And you don't see why I'm afraid of you?

      "Compassion is not weakness, and concern for the unfortunate is not socialism." - Hubert Humphrey

      by Killer of Sacred Cows on Sat Dec 22, 2012 at 04:32:45 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  That must mean (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        ban nock
        you're willing to kill another person if you feel it's necessary.

        And you don't see why I'm afraid of you?

        You are willing to do something that would make it necessary for matador to kill you.  You are the scary one.  That is the mindset that allows people to kill abortion doctors and feel justified.

        Life is a grindstone; whether it grinds you down or polishes you up depends on what you're made of. Jacob M. Braude

        by Grannus on Sat Dec 22, 2012 at 04:41:49 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  What am I willing to do (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Avila

          that would make it necessary to kill me?

          "Compassion is not weakness, and concern for the unfortunate is not socialism." - Hubert Humphrey

          by Killer of Sacred Cows on Sat Dec 22, 2012 at 04:48:33 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Rape his son? Kill his wife? (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Little, Grannus, Reel Woman

            Because protection of his family was the conditional.  If you're not intent on any of that, what is there to (rationally) fear?

            •  I will not harm another human being. (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Avila

              And how dare you suggest that I would. That's very nearly HRable.

              There are other ways to stop someone intent on killing or harming your family that do not involve a gun.

              "Compassion is not weakness, and concern for the unfortunate is not socialism." - Hubert Humphrey

              by Killer of Sacred Cows on Sat Dec 22, 2012 at 05:01:54 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  You asked for an example, and (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Grannus

                you were given one. If it is something you would never do, then congratulations! You will never be in a position where someone sees you as a threat.

                Take heart at that-- the only reason someone would want to kill you would be if you were doing something horrible and atrocious-- which you'd never do. So it is a closed loop.

              •  You need to start paying attention. (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Grannus, Neuroptimalian

                1.  He said he'd kill to protect his family.
                2.  You asked what you need do to make him want to kill you.
                3.  I said that, based on his response, you'd need to try to harm his family.
                4.  You got all butt-hurt and started threatening to HR a factual answer.
                5.  Good lord.

                •  You're right. I did miss that implication. (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Avila

                  However, I believe you've also read incorrectly. I don't need to be one of the possible targets to have a real problem with the mindset that killing another human being is okay. You seem to think that if I'm not one of his possible targets (since I don't meet the conditions he set on being willing to kill another person), I should be perfectly okay with him targeting others that do meet those conditions.

                  Well, I'm not. I'm not good with him deciding that killing anyone is acceptable for any reason. There are better ways to defend others than by killing the person creating the threat.

                  "Compassion is not weakness, and concern for the unfortunate is not socialism." - Hubert Humphrey

                  by Killer of Sacred Cows on Sat Dec 22, 2012 at 06:21:48 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  "There are better ways to defend others... (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    matador

                    ... than by killing the person creating the threat."

                    Sometimes. Most times, even. But not every time.

                    Don't tell me what you believe, show me what you do and I will tell you what you believe.

                    by Meteor Blades on Sat Dec 22, 2012 at 11:56:14 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  You can feel as superior as you like (0+ / 0-)

                      because I cannot kill someone and, apparently, you can.

                      Well, I can't, and your bullying won't change my mind.

                      "Compassion is not weakness, and concern for the unfortunate is not socialism." - Hubert Humphrey

                      by Killer of Sacred Cows on Sun Dec 23, 2012 at 12:24:32 AM PST

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  No one is engaging in bullying. (0+ / 0-)

                        That's an overreaction. It seems people aren't comfortable when someone else has a very different view. The other person is somehow "extreme" or "bullying".

                        "Okay, until next time. Keep sending me your questions, and I will make fun of you... I mean, answer them." - Strong Bad

                        by AaronInSanDiego on Sun Dec 23, 2012 at 01:23:08 AM PST

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  He all but accused me of being (1+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          Kevskos

                          a murderer-in-waiting, because I can't kill someone and so if my family member died it'll be my fault for not killing the killer first, even though I said I'd do everything else in my power to keep it from happening. I'd call that bullying, and having been on the receiving end of it numerous times in my life, for me, it was.

                          "Compassion is not weakness, and concern for the unfortunate is not socialism." - Hubert Humphrey

                          by Killer of Sacred Cows on Sun Dec 23, 2012 at 01:32:54 AM PST

                          [ Parent ]

              •  Then why do police carry guns? (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Neuroptimalian

                If other ways to stop murderous people were adequate, police departments wouldn't shoulder the liability of issuing firearms.

                Since you're not going to harm another human being, you're safe at your friend's place.

                •  And yet in Britain the police don't carry guns (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Avila, Kevskos

                  and they seem to control crime just fine.

                  I'm not satisfied with just me being safe. That's a really narcissistic way of looking at it. I'm only going to be satisfied when people stop killing other people with guns. Until that happens, we are not a civilized nation.

                  "Compassion is not weakness, and concern for the unfortunate is not socialism." - Hubert Humphrey

                  by Killer of Sacred Cows on Sat Dec 22, 2012 at 07:46:59 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

              •  i so agree with you (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Killer of Sacred Cows

                offensive, despicable.  typical for this user.

                Yes, we need to talk about this. Please sign the dKos Petition to start a national conversation about gun control.

                by Avila on Sat Dec 22, 2012 at 11:20:44 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

              •  But you have proved throughout this ... (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                matador, Neuroptimalian

                ...comment thread that you WOULD allow the killing of another human being by virtue of refusing to defend their life from an attacker which might require taking the attacker's life.

                Don't tell me what you believe, show me what you do and I will tell you what you believe.

                by Meteor Blades on Sat Dec 22, 2012 at 11:53:35 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

              •  What are these other ways ... (0+ / 0-)

                that are any less ghastly ... that would be guaranteed to stop someone with such intent?  If your ONLY choice in a bad situation was to choose between shooting someone or letting them shoot you, would you sacrifice your life for your principle?  If so, more power to ya, but most people wouldn't.  It's called the "survival instinct", a quality which most humans are born with.

                "Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity, and I am not sure about the universe." -- Albert Einstein

                by Neuroptimalian on Sun Dec 23, 2012 at 02:17:15 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

            •  And what is there to rationally fear? (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Avila

              Anyone who's willing to kill someone else, regardless of the circumstances, is someone who I'm afraid of. The willingness to kill is the issue, not the contextual limitations.

              I want people to stop being willing to kill other people! Why is that so hard for you to understand?

              "Compassion is not weakness, and concern for the unfortunate is not socialism." - Hubert Humphrey

              by Killer of Sacred Cows on Sat Dec 22, 2012 at 05:10:35 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  You deny to others (6+ / 0-)

                the right of self defense.  I think that's an important right.  If someone is trying to harm or kill me, I have the right to stop them from doing that.  If the only way to stop them is to kill them, I have the right to do that.  I believe my life is worth defending.

                Obviously, I am talking about extreme situations, ones that I hope never to face.  And it is also true that the right to self defense implies the responsibility to use careful judgement, and to avoid, if possible, situations that could involve such choices--I certainly do not go looking for fights or danger.

                If you wish to make the choice not to defend yourself under certain conditions, even if it may result in your death, you have that right.  You do not have the right to ask me to make that choice.

                •  Why do you need to kill? (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Avila

                  Why do you need to kill in order to defend yourself? I'm not denying anyone the right to defend themselves. I am saying that I find killing someone else to be unacceptable.

                  You've created a false equivalence here between killing and self-defense. That equivalence is not necessary.

                  "Compassion is not weakness, and concern for the unfortunate is not socialism." - Hubert Humphrey

                  by Killer of Sacred Cows on Sat Dec 22, 2012 at 06:17:57 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Killing isn't the goal (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    matador

                    Betcha a nickel that your friend would call an ambulance for the attacker as soon as all the intended victims were safe.

                    •  Doesn't do much if the guy's already dead (2+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      Avila, Kevskos

                      due to a point-blank head or chest wound, now does it?

                      The better way is to not kill him in the first place.

                      "Compassion is not weakness, and concern for the unfortunate is not socialism." - Hubert Humphrey

                      by Killer of Sacred Cows on Sat Dec 22, 2012 at 07:49:33 PM PST

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  No, the best way is if an attacker ... (0+ / 0-)

                        never puts himself in the position of being defended against.  If he takes that risk and loses, 100% of the blame falls on him, not the defender.

                        "Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity, and I am not sure about the universe." -- Albert Einstein

                        by Neuroptimalian on Sun Dec 23, 2012 at 02:25:32 PM PST

                        [ Parent ]

                  •  Re: Why do you need to kill? (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    Kevskos

                    You wrote: "Why do you need to kill to defend yourself?"  I did not write that.  I repeat here:

                    "If someone is trying to harm or kill me, I have the right to stop them from doing that.  If the only way to stop them is to kill them, I have the right to do that."

                    I do not equate all self-defense with killing, and you are being obtuse to interpret my clear statement that way.  I do recognize that in certain rare circumstances (usually only encountered in war zones), defending your own life may involve killing your assailant.  I am certainly in favor of avoiding that whenever possible--if someone who is trying to shoot me can be stopped by, say, knocking them temporarily unconscious, that is fine with me.  However, a real-life situation may not give you that choice.  In that case, are we justified in killing in self-defense?  In my opinion, yes--the person trying to harm me gave up their right to my consideration when they decided to attack me.  

                    One other note: I do not own any firearms, nor do I intend to.  Guns are rather blunt weapons--if you shoot someone and actually hit them, the chances are good that you may kill them.  If I use a gun to deter an attacker, they may not be deterred, in which case I will have to shoot them or risk them taking my gun and using it on me.  For ordinary self protection (as opposed to what you might need in a war zone or similar dangerous environment), this strikes me as a bad choice that I would rather avoid.

                    My own choice is to study martial arts like jiu jitsu, that can be useful for self defense in many situations but do not pose the same risk of killing an assailant.  Of course, jiu jitsu or related arts may not be an adequate defense against an attacker using a gun, but that is a rare situation in normal civilian life.  Therefore, I feel no need to have a gun for self defense.

                •  Zimmerman (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Killer of Sacred Cows

                  was sure he was in danger.  Guns do not make you safe.  They make you a target and they make others less safe.

                  Guns are offensive weapons.  When used in defense they are only reacting to a situation.

              •  That is beyond your control (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Neuroptimalian
                I want people to stop being willing to kill other people!
                I'll defend your decision to make this decision for yourself, but not to impose that belief on others.

                "Okay, until next time. Keep sending me your questions, and I will make fun of you... I mean, answer them." - Strong Bad

                by AaronInSanDiego on Sun Dec 23, 2012 at 01:28:08 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

      •  Absolute pacifism is the exception (5+ / 0-)

        Letting yourself be killed because you're philosophically or spiritually opposed to fighting back may be noble, but if you're afraid of everyone who does fight back, you're going to lead a life miserably full of fear.

        •  How do I do otherwise? (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Avila

          People fighting back puts me in danger. People fighting AT ALL puts me in danger if I'm anywhere in the vicinity. I think it's better to encourage people to STOP FIGHTING.

          "Compassion is not weakness, and concern for the unfortunate is not socialism." - Hubert Humphrey

          by Killer of Sacred Cows on Sat Dec 22, 2012 at 07:45:30 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

      •  Yet you accuse gun owners ... (0+ / 0-)

        of operating from fear, as if that's a horrible thing.

        "Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity, and I am not sure about the universe." -- Albert Einstein

        by Neuroptimalian on Sun Dec 23, 2012 at 02:06:36 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

  •  yo Killer (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Dogs are fuzzy

    Both my brother in law and grandfather in law have fully auto AKs under the seat in their trucks. Full auto AK is the only firearm anyone has in the whole country pretty much. Lots of people have them and no one has a gun cabinet or a trigger lock or anything else.

    They are stored fully loaded up off the floor where a small child would not be apt to mess with it and if a kid is big enough to climb up to head height they sure the heck aren't going to be messing with guns.

    We've become too uptight. On the tourist busses the plain clothes cop has to cary his folding stock AK under his coat because when people see it they think they are about to be ripped off or something. I swear if people watched a little less TV and got out more life would be less scary.

    Why spend life scared, they're just guns. Get out a little. Mix with folks not like yourself.

    How big is your personal carbon footprint?

    by ban nock on Sat Dec 22, 2012 at 05:29:58 PM PST

    •  Yeah, if you get out and visit say England or (3+ / 0-)

      France or Spain or Japan, you get to mix with folks not like yourself and don't have to be confronted by the presence of guns.  It really is outlandish how warped the gun culture has become in the US that it's gotten to the point that we are supposed to accept guns everywhere wielded by just about anyone at just about any time -- and that the problem is all in the heads of the non-gun owners.

      Also, I wouldn't flippantly tell anyone "they're just guns."  Imagine if you were to say that to a family member of a victim of gun violence.

    •  20 children killed needlessly might have (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Killer of Sacred Cows, Avila

      something to do with people who care about their children and other people's children "being uptight".  

  •  The Only Way to Stop a Bad Guy with a Gun... (7+ / 0-)

    A Poet is at the same time a force for Solidarity and for Solitude -- Pablo Neruda / Netroots Radio podcasts of The After Show with Wink & Justice can be found on Stitcher

    by justiceputnam on Sat Dec 22, 2012 at 05:52:48 PM PST

  •  Wish me luck (4+ / 0-)

    Unfortunately, my brother is turning into one of these NRA gun nut types, and I'm about to go visit for Christmas. I already accepted the invitation. I am not looking forward to this at all.  Not that I'll necessarily be in any great danger, but I'm afraid I'll end up subject to a pro assault weapon spiel from him.  And I can't decide how to respond, or if I can avoid telling him off.

    The problem is, he's family, and I really want to avoid a split in the family over this. Especially since we currently own some shared property.  But if he persists, I may decide I can't take it anymore, and a family split may end up happening. I'm really dreading this Christmas visit.

    •  Just tell him you've heard it all before (9+ / 0-)

      Fake a yawn.  Tell him, blasé, that those are the same lame excuses we've been hearing for decades now.  Politicians only put up with them because they were afraid of the gun lobby's effect on their campaigns, not because anybody actually believed them.  The pols aren't so afraid anymore, so reform is on the way.  Funny how using a gun to kill a bunch of kids can affect people, isn't it?  If I were you, I'd sell my guns now while there's still a market for them.  So,  
      want a refill on your eggnog?

      Tell him that these "bad guys" shooting up schools were good guys when they got their guns.  If he blames "mental illness", remind him that most shooters (mass or not) are not mentally ill, and that mental illness can happen to anyone at any time, just like any other illness.

      Tell him that Columbine had armed guards, and so did Fort Hood.  And besides, if we put guards in schools, they'll just go to theaters.  Hospitals. Stadiums. Libraries. And so on.  Are we going to put a cop everywhere the public might gather?  Is he going to pay the taxes for that?  Why not just pay the taxes to buy back all the most lethal guns?  

      Of course, he'll say that's what concealed carry is for/everyone should have a gun. Tell him that fewer Americans buy guns every year (though those that buy are buying more).

      Tell him that having everyone buy a gun is basically a (de facto) government mandate.  (I assume he was against mandates when it was Obama's idea)

      Tell him that a society where everyone is armed is not a society anymore.  It's gangland.  Which is... not safe at all, actually.  And the American people say no to that.

      Tell him that every illegal gun used to be a legal one, so getting rid of legal ones stops that problem.

      Australia and the UK both did successful mandatory buybacks of illegal guns. Neither has had a mass shooting since, and they have had fewer single shootings and suicides.

      Tell him that if we ban certain types of guns, and you keep yours, you are no longer law-abiding, but a criminal, and deserve to be treated like one.

      Tell him that if we ban guns, not only will "criminals" have guns, but police, national guard, and the military will, too.  

      Tell him that there is a difference between gun removal and gun control, and that the second is happening no matter what.  He should be glad the first one isn't, too.  Yet.

      Tell him we/the courts can interpret the 2nd amendment however we like, just like we do with the other 26. If you want to scare him, point out that Obama will likely appoint 2 justices this term, and with the coming filibuster reform, they'll likely be pro-gun control.  Maybe even pro-gun removal. Bwa ha ha ha

      Tell him that him being afraid of a "criminal" is no reason to make normal people afraid of him.  Tell him that a 'crazy' person never thinks he's the crazy one. (substitute with creepy, or whatever negative adjective might be most appropriate).  Since we're trading fears, we go to majority rules.  And most Americans want fewer guns out and about, putting them and their families in danger.

      Tell him that his guns are ten times as likely to be used for suicide or homicide as they are for self-defense.  And that most of these people were "responsible" gun owners, just like him.  Tell him he's like one of those people who drive because they're afraid to fly, even though flying is actually far safer.  

      Tell him that cars are different from guns because a) cars only kill when things go wrong; guns kill when they are used for their designed purpose.  b) we've enacted car control legislation over the last 60 years that has cut deaths to their 1950 levels (not the rate, but the absolute number! The rate is 1/7 of the 1950 rate.)  c) we did not pretend there wasn't a problem because some drivers were afraid that the solution to the problem would infringe on their lifestyle.

      Tell him that a well-regulated militia is not necessary for the security of a free state; we have police and a standing army for that.  Some countries don't even have an army.  In 1789, police hadn't been invented yet, and the army was nearly non-existent, so they thought they needed a militia.  By the war of 1812, they realized the error of their ways.  

      Tell him that every "irresponsible" gun owner used to be a responsible one.

      Tell him that if guns don't kill people, they don't protect people, either.

      Tell him that the government isn't coming for his guns; the American people are.  

      Tell him that all the gains in civil rights were won non-violently; that the people fighting liberties were the ones using guns.  

      Tell him that the people of Tunisia overthrew their dictator despite the lowest gun ownership rate in the world.

      Tell him that Swiss men with military rifles in their house don't have the ammo, or have it under seal, and they are not allowed to use the rifles if someone breaks in.

      Tell him that the fact that other countries have guns and no violence only tells you that other countries can handle their guns, and we can't.  

      Tell him that the problem isn't just guns; it's Americans with guns.  You have to get rid of one or the other, but you can't get rid of the Americans.  So there's no other choice, I'm afraid.

      Tell him that no law stops all the behavior it means to (we have rape laws, and yet there are still rapes). But nobody is that naive; the laws reduce the unwanted behavior.

      Tell him that for all the shootings, all over the world, there is only one thing they ALL have in common, and it isn't video games.  (Two if you count the victims being human.)

      Tell him that cities pass strict gun laws because they had high gun violence first, not the other way around.  That's why many cities even in the Wild West straight up banned guns in the city limits.

      Tell him that states with more guns have higher rates of murder, suicide, and assault deaths.

      OR, tell him to pass the ham already, because this is SO boring.  Seriously.  Don't get riled up.  Keep your cool.  

      Conservatives need to realize that their Silent Moral Majority is neither silent, nor moral, nor a majority.

      by nominalize on Sat Dec 22, 2012 at 10:48:45 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Wow, that was quite a response (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Killer of Sacred Cows

        and thanks for the advice. I've been following this closely, and am aware of many of those points (though I couldn't have listed them off as well as you did).

        The problem is, or may be, those are rational arguments. And I'm afraid I'm dealing with something more like a religion, where no amount of rational arguments is going to make a difference.  That's part of my conundrum, is do I try to argue with this religion.

        Hopefully it won't go too badly, and may go fine. I suspect my dread is worse than what I'll encounter.  I spoke with him on the phone yesterday, and this didn't even come up. But we haven't met in person since Sandy Hook.

        This diary started with comments about Facebook. I know some of my brother's views on guns, but the most extreme ones I've seen come from there, where he's (still) posting pro-gun comments to places like the NRA's Facebook page, once they put it back up (I think he may not be smart enough to realize those show up in my Facebook news feed).

        •  They have lots of excuses (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Killer of Sacred Cows, KathyinSC

          But that's all they are.  Excuses I tell people the same line over and over, especially on facebook.

          I don't know the solution to the problem, but I know that the first step is admitting that our country has a problem with its guns.  And I for one am tired of putting up with excuses from people who are afraid that the solution to this problem might infringe on their lifestyle.  

          Now, I do often go on about "gun removal", but that's as much to move the Overton window.  I want people to realize that "gun control" is not an extreme position.  Because it isn't.

          Conservatives need to realize that their Silent Moral Majority is neither silent, nor moral, nor a majority.

          by nominalize on Sat Dec 22, 2012 at 11:49:52 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  I think I need to go at this slowly (2+ / 0-)

            I'll have to work on him a little at a time, I think, I don't know if I can turn around his thinking in one conversation. But having a good set of counterpoints such as what you proposed is a good starting point, I'll just have to try to pick an appropriate one to use at the right time.

            Thanks.

            •  In my experience, he's a lost cause (for now) (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Killer of Sacred Cows, KathyinSC

              It's the audience you're aiming for.  You won't believe how many people will come up to you later and thank you for saying what they've always wanted to.  When he sees he's not the big dog in the room, he'll "agree to disagree" and talk about the ham.  Maybe try to sneak the last word in to salvage his pride.

              Conservatives need to realize that their Silent Moral Majority is neither silent, nor moral, nor a majority.

              by nominalize on Sun Dec 23, 2012 at 04:35:28 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

      •  Sent to Top Comments (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        KathyinSC

        and please, please make this a diary. It's that good.

        "Compassion is not weakness, and concern for the unfortunate is not socialism." - Hubert Humphrey

        by Killer of Sacred Cows on Sun Dec 23, 2012 at 11:26:55 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

  •  Let me ask you a serious question: (0+ / 0-)

    If your spouse, son or best friend was being attacked by an armed person who was clearly intent on murder, how far would you be willing to go to save that spouse, son or best friend's life?

    Don't tell me what you believe, show me what you do and I will tell you what you believe.

    by Meteor Blades on Sat Dec 22, 2012 at 11:41:30 PM PST

    •  I have already answered that question. (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      roseeriter, matx

      I would throw myself at the shooter and fight with him for the gun. But I would not be able to shoot him.

      Also, I think that's a shitty question to ask. Just saying.

      "Compassion is not weakness, and concern for the unfortunate is not socialism." - Hubert Humphrey

      by Killer of Sacred Cows on Sat Dec 22, 2012 at 11:55:48 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  I will give you credit for consistency... (3+ / 0-)

        ...and I have no problem with your refusing to enter a house where there are guns.

        But if I learned you had allowed a family member to be murdered because you refused to try to do whatever was necessary to stop that murder, you would not be allowed to enter one house: mine.

        Don't tell me what you believe, show me what you do and I will tell you what you believe.

        by Meteor Blades on Sun Dec 23, 2012 at 12:08:27 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  I already said I would sacrifice my own life (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          AaronInSanDiego

          for theirs. What more do you want?

          Expecting me to kill someone is beyond the pale. That is not something I am or could ever be ready to do.

          "Compassion is not weakness, and concern for the unfortunate is not socialism." - Hubert Humphrey

          by Killer of Sacred Cows on Sun Dec 23, 2012 at 12:19:52 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Thankfully not ever having been in such (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Killer of Sacred Cows, Kevskos

            a situation, it's not one I can answer. I am unwilling to own or carry a gun, therefore it would be unlikely that I would be able to kill a perpetrator attacking a family member with a gun. I hope MB and others are not saying that my refusal to own or carry a gun is morally reprehensible.

            "Okay, until next time. Keep sending me your questions, and I will make fun of you... I mean, answer them." - Strong Bad

            by AaronInSanDiego on Sun Dec 23, 2012 at 01:33:55 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  It's not about owning or carrying gun. The... (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Vetwife

              ...issue for me is how far someone is willing to go to protect, not his or her own life, but someone else's life.

              Don't tell me what you believe, show me what you do and I will tell you what you believe.

              by Meteor Blades on Sun Dec 23, 2012 at 09:37:54 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  I'm nor sure how I would respond in (2+ / 0-)

                that situation, and I hope I never have to find out. I might lack the courage to do what is necessary. But if it comes down to killing someone, I'm not sure that's just a matter of courage. And I don't think it's necessarily a black and white issue morally either.

                "Okay, until next time. Keep sending me your questions, and I will make fun of you... I mean, answer them." - Strong Bad

                by AaronInSanDiego on Sun Dec 23, 2012 at 09:52:15 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  The diarist made it a black and white issue... (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Neuroptimalian

                  ...and that is what I and a few others have responded to.

                  I would never tell someone they had to carry or own a gun (or any other lethal weapon). If I knew someone opposed guns in the way the diarist does, I would never encourage them to enter a house or other location where I knew there to be firearms (which includes where I live) and I would make sure he knew there was a firearm in such a place so that he would not violate his principles.

                  Also, I would never tell someone they have an obligation to defend their own life by killing someone even if they only way they could survive would be to kill someone.

                  But the diarist has said, in essence, that those of us who choose to defend a loved one's life from imminent death are a risk to him if we were to do that with a firearm. Sorry, that's not just black and white. It says the diarist believes the life of a murderer is more valuable than the life of, say, my daughter. I find that appalling.

                  Don't tell me what you believe, show me what you do and I will tell you what you believe.

                  by Meteor Blades on Sun Dec 23, 2012 at 10:26:20 AM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  No, you are incorrect. (0+ / 0-)

                    You have a dozen different ways to defend your daughter from a person who is trying to kill her that don't involve a firearm. You having a firearm makes you a risk not just to me but to everyone, including your daughter, if we are in the same area as you and your gun. You cannot be certain your bullets will not go astray and hit someone else who is innocent. A person using jiujitsu or karate (as suggested else-thread here), on the other hand, is not going to randomly hit someone with a scatter of misplaced roundhouse kicks.

                    If we want people to stop killing, we have to be willing to stop as well. The fact that you would be willing to add another gun to an already dangerous situation makes you dangerous as well.

                    I never said that you could not defend yourself or your daughter. I simply object to the use of a firearm to do it. There are plenty of methods of defense and self-defense that do not involve a firearm. Having a firearm means you will probably bypass all of those methods because the firearm gives the illusion of being quicker, more certain, and more expedient. It's illusory. All it does is put you and others at greater risk.

                    And, if nothing else, I'd rather have these shooters caught alive, so they can be brought to justice. Being shot (or committing suicide) gives them the easy way out.

                    "Compassion is not weakness, and concern for the unfortunate is not socialism." - Hubert Humphrey

                    by Killer of Sacred Cows on Sun Dec 23, 2012 at 11:13:32 AM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Could he use a bow and arrow to defend ... (0+ / 0-)

                      his daughter?  What about a rock propelled by a slingshot?  These also very well could result in an attacker's death.  The magical thinking that "I would use all types of other ways to stop an attacker to save a loved one" sounds like you just have an irrational fear of guns, nothing more.

                      "Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity, and I am not sure about the universe." -- Albert Einstein

                      by Neuroptimalian on Sun Dec 23, 2012 at 02:35:03 PM PST

                      [ Parent ]

              •  How far will I go? (0+ / 0-)

                I will sacrifice myself. That's not good enough for your moral standards?

                "Compassion is not weakness, and concern for the unfortunate is not socialism." - Hubert Humphrey

                by Killer of Sacred Cows on Sun Dec 23, 2012 at 10:25:47 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  I have sought to point out what I believe ... (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Neuroptimalian

                  ...is a logical hole in your argument in this matter. Having been a Vietnam War protester who went to jail rather than serve in an immoral war, I know many pacifists and respect their point of view and principles. But many of these pacifists agree that they have a right to personal self defense and almost all of them agree that defending someone else's life is morally just.

                  As I've said, you've shown admirable consistency in your views on this. I just can't agree with you. And I definitely can't agree with your view that other people who arm themselves for self-protection or protection of their loved ones are a danger to you.

                  Don't tell me what you believe, show me what you do and I will tell you what you believe.

                  by Meteor Blades on Sun Dec 23, 2012 at 10:34:45 AM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Then we'll have to agree to disagree (0+ / 0-)

                    but you have come off throughout your comments here as saying that I'm immoral (and an asshole) for not being willing to kill another person even in self-defense. And that has really, really pissed me off in ways I can't even express. Frankly, the only thing that's kept me from saying what I really think about your responses here is that you're in a position of power at DKos and that I have no desire to face the banhammer.

                    "Compassion is not weakness, and concern for the unfortunate is not socialism." - Hubert Humphrey

                    by Killer of Sacred Cows on Sun Dec 23, 2012 at 10:43:49 AM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Nobody has EVER risked being... (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      Neuroptimalian

                      ...banned for saying what they think about my point of view. Ask anyone.

                      I have never said you were an asshole. I have never said you have an obligation to defend yourself. But here's an exchange that pissed me off.

                      [Dogs are fuzzy:] Do you think that the willingness to risk one life (the attacker's) to save others shows callous indifference?
                      [You:] Yes, I do. And the fact that so many who have never been put in that position seem to think that it's okay if they ever are is, to me, a big part of the problem.
                      So you're telling me that by being determined to defend someone else's life is (and being prepared in advance to do so) demonstrates my callous indifference to life. So, yes, we will have to agree to disagree.

                      Don't tell me what you believe, show me what you do and I will tell you what you believe.

                      by Meteor Blades on Sun Dec 23, 2012 at 11:01:43 AM PST

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  there's a difference between judging (1+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        Killer of Sacred Cows

                        another person's choices and making those choices for one's own actions. I see those being conflated on both sides of the argument.

                        "Okay, until next time. Keep sending me your questions, and I will make fun of you... I mean, answer them." - Strong Bad

                        by AaronInSanDiego on Sun Dec 23, 2012 at 11:16:29 AM PST

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  I agree. But the implication of ... (1+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          AaronInSanDiego

                          ...moral superiority was not initiated by me. Both Killer of Sacred Cows and I should probably take a step back now since it's pretty obvious that, even though we agree on many things, we will never agree on this.

                          Don't tell me what you believe, show me what you do and I will tell you what you believe.

                          by Meteor Blades on Sun Dec 23, 2012 at 11:23:40 AM PST

                          [ Parent ]

  •  See the diary on SHOTGUNS (0+ / 0-)

    sometimes a gun is simply a deterrent, NOT an 'intent to kill' - and a pump action shotgun gives as much warning as anyone should need - with consequences  bad enough (not necessarily lethal depending on the round) to stop but not kill.  You can buy a variety of 'less lethal' (unlikely to do any serious harm unless used VERY close) rounds like beanbags and rubber 00.

    Rarely wil you ever have to use such a gun - bad guys DO run when they hear a round loading.

    Life isn't fair but you should try to leave it fairer than you found it.

    by xrepub on Sun Dec 23, 2012 at 01:22:50 AM PST

    •  A gun (2+ / 0-)

      is not a magic wand.  If you are not willing to kill someone might as well not have one.

    •  Sorry, but no. (0+ / 0-)

      As the first commenter to your comment said, those who are not prepared to kill someone should not have guns in the first place. I am not and never will be so prepared.

      But I really object to those who are prepared to do so having guns. To my mind, being willing to use a gun to kill someone is a demonstration of fundamental unfitness to have one.

      "Compassion is not weakness, and concern for the unfortunate is not socialism." - Hubert Humphrey

      by Killer of Sacred Cows on Sun Dec 23, 2012 at 11:15:28 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Feel free to be a saint - and dead (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Neuroptimalian

        because some people are VERY bad and will be thrilled that you have no intention of fighting back - they are more than willing to kill YOU.

        Life isn't fair but you should try to leave it fairer than you found it.

        by xrepub on Sun Dec 23, 2012 at 01:40:27 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

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