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assault deaths, US vs other countries

kieranhealy.org via Ezra Klein

Daily Times/Gannett editorial:

We are not in a war zone, but we might as well be.

A frequent factor in these violent incidents is mental illness. In many — but not all — of these incidents, the weapons used to wreak havoc were obtained legally.

This is not a proposed assault on the Second Amendment. There is, of course, no way to avoid all gun violence. But there is a clear choice we must ultimately make: What kind of society do we want to inhabit — one in which we risk our lives to watch a movie, go shopping or enter a classroom?

Or one where capable and responsible adults are free to own guns but every effort is made to weed out those who could turn violent?

Michael Gerson captures the anguish of Christmas during tragedy:
Death is not the expression of a just moral order but its violation. And the proper response is not explanation but friendship. “Immediately after such tragedy,” said [William Sloane] Coffin, “people must come to your rescue, people who only want to hold your hand, not to quote anybody or even say anything, people who simply bring food and flowers — the basics of beauty and life — people who sign letters simply, ‘Your brokenhearted sister.’ ”

Grief is particularly difficult at Christmas, as the best memories can be the hardest ones. But the hope of Christmas is broad enough for joy and sorrow.

Gerson is one of the few living practitioners of compassionate conservatism.

In this holiday spirit, here's a short and incomplete list of conservatives I've said nice things about, on occasion: Mike Gerson, David Frum, Bruce Bartlett, Cesar Conda, Rory Cooper, George W. Bush (on PEPFAR and pandemic preparedness). The list does not afaik include Mitt Romney, Dick Cheney or the Republican House.

CBS:

Firefighters' ambush killer left note on his plan, had same rifle as Conn. gunman
I was hoping to hear it was banned, not that it was used again. As a Newtown resident, my heart goes out to Webster, NY and their first responders.

I am one of David Gregory's biggest detractors. But this interview with the head of the NRA is extraordinary. http://t.co/... (Scroll.)
@jayrosen_nyu via bitly

MSNBC provides us with some memorable Democratic party 2012 moments, including:

Mitt Romney, the gift that kept on giving

Right-wingers go off-script on rape; women shut that whole thing down

Obamacare survives Supreme Court test

Wall Street watchdog goes to Washington

Obama backs same-sex marriage

and of course

FOUR MORE YEARS! FOUR MORE YEARS!

Meanwhile, the WaPo reports the tea party is staying on the sidelines. The NY Times reports the tea party has diminished clout. Both ought to remember for headline purposes that the tea party is the Republican party.

Jonathan Bernstein:

So: Do tea party leaders actually care about deficits? Is deficit talk all just a cover for a traditional (over the last 30 years at least) Republican insistence on low tax rates for rich people, regardless of what actually happens to the deficit? Do they have no idea what they’re talking about at all, and are lost when it comes to actual policy choices instead of easy slogans?

I’m guessing it’s the last one.

But I’ll admit: I don’t know the answer. It is, however, what I want to hear about from tea party leaders.

Reread it and insert Republican party every time you read tea party. The fiscal cliff discussions will make a lot more sense to you.

Added: don't miss this amazing story of heroism, guns and revolution.

Richard K. Armey, the group’s chairman and a former House majority leader, walked into the group’s Capitol Hill offices with his wife, Susan, and an aide holstering a handgun at his waist. The aim was to seize control of the group and expel Armey’s enemies: The gun-wielding assistant escorted FreedomWorks’ top two employees off the premises, while Armey suspended several others who broke down in sobs at the news.

The coup lasted all of six days. By Sept. 10, Armey was gone — with a promise of $8 million — and the five ousted employees were back. The force behind their return was Richard J. Stephenson, a reclusive Illinois millionaire who has exerted increasing control over one of Washington’s most influential conservative grass-roots organizations.

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Comment Preferences

  •  weed out those who could turn violent? (6+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    skohayes, DRo, a2nite, judyms9, DSPS owl, drmah

    Are you saying we should start imprisoning or institutionalizing persons based on what they "could do"?

    That's one helluva leap from simply removing highpowered semi automatic military mockups off the market. Are they assuming we in the United States have more crazy people than any other country out there? We don't. And the recent  diagnosis of many Americans as suffering from some form of mental illness or another is from improvements in diagnostics, not an outbreak of "crazy"!

    There have been the same number of nutso people in America as there have been all along. It's just that today we have too many high powered guns out there to enable them to do much more damage when they go off the deep end.

    Stop blaming the mentally disturbed for your obsession with military weaponry!

    "I think it's the duty of the comedian to find out where the line is drawn and cross it deliberately." -- George Carlin, Satirical Comic,(1937-2008)

    by Wynter on Wed Dec 26, 2012 at 04:41:40 AM PST

    •  I read a study a week or so ago (8+ / 0-)

      that said that mental illness is not a factor in most of these mass shootings.

      “Research has shown that the vast majority of people who are violent do not suffer from mental illnesses (American Psychiatric Association, 1994).”
      “. . . [T]he absolute risk of violence among the mentally ill as a group is still very small and . . . only a small proportion of the violence in our society can be attributed to persons who are mentally ill (Mulvey, 1994).”
      In a 1998 study that compared people discharged from acute psychiatric inpatient facilities and others in the same neighborhoods, researchers found that “there was no significant difference between the prevalence of violence by patients without symptoms of substance abuse and the prevalence of violence by others living in the same neighborhoods who were also without symptoms of substance abuse (Steadman, Mulvey, Monahan, Robbins, Applebaum, Grisso, Roth, and Silver, 1998).”
      People with psychiatric disabilities are far more likely to be victims than perpetrators of violent crime (Appleby, et al., 2001). Researchers at North Carolina State University and Duke University found that people with severe mental illnesses—schizophrenia, bipolar disorder or psychosis—are 2 ½ times more likely to be attacked, raped or mugged than the general population (Hiday, et al., 1999).

      People with mental illnesses can and do recover. People with mental illnesses can recover or manage their conditions and go on to lead happy, healthy, productive lives. They contribute to society and make the world a better place. People can often benefit from medication, rehabilitation, talk therapy, self help or a combination of these. One of the most important factors in recovery is the understanding and acceptance of family and friends.

      http://promoteacceptance.samhsa.gov/...

      It's a red herring the gun supporters are throwing out there to avoid addressing the real problem.

      “We are not a nation that says ‘don’t ask, don’t tell.’ We are a nation that says ‘out of many, we are one.’” -Barack Obama

      by skohayes on Wed Dec 26, 2012 at 04:55:50 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  Unless...... (5+ / 0-)

      You want to classify that obsession, and it is a deep, dysfunctional obsession as a mental illness itself.

      •  I used that the other day... (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Laconic Lib

        when some gun nut was yammering about crazy people and everyone needing to go buy more guns. I asked him to go see a mental health professional right away!

        "I think it's the duty of the comedian to find out where the line is drawn and cross it deliberately." -- George Carlin, Satirical Comic,(1937-2008)

        by Wynter on Wed Dec 26, 2012 at 05:49:00 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  We have to make a distinction between "mental (0+ / 0-)

        illness" which is a function of disturbed brain chemistry and "socio-pathology" which can be exhibited by someone who doesn't "hear voices" or have "paranoid delusions".

        I don't know what the latest research on "social pathology" and its relation to brain chemistry and structure is, but I'd like to see someone knowledgeable write a diary.

        Obviously the lines are not stark, a "sociopath" could also be "schizophrenic" or "bipolar".

        Sociology and sociobiology has made meaningful contributions to the study of psychology, but as science they have all lagged behind biology and other hard sciences.

        I think the facts about the mentally ill mentioned in skohayes' comment should be repeated whenever the subject comes up.

        You're right, gun obsession is driving the agenda on the "pro-gun" side, and it's either a mental illness or some form of social pathology. Gun addiction, gun worship, gun fetishism, etc.
        I don't think everyone who is a "gun enthusiast" or hunts or collects guns fits under the "pathology" heading.

        You can't make this stuff up.

        by David54 on Wed Dec 26, 2012 at 07:39:03 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

    •  If we enforced the 'keep' of the 2nd amendment (0+ / 0-)

      we would weed out those suffering from extreme paranoid delusions.  

      How?  

      Because a person suffering from extreme paranoid delusions could never comply with the prove-up provision of keeping their arms.  So for starters, they wouldn't be able to have legal possession of a gun.

    •  For gosh sake --- LaPierre says he's crazy. When (0+ / 0-)

      will he turn in his guns.

  •  We're number one in something, (5+ / 0-)

    and when you look at by how much, we're clearly exceptional.

    What we need is a Democrat in the White House.

    by dkmich on Wed Dec 26, 2012 at 04:44:12 AM PST

  •  Gun nuts (5+ / 0-)

    America is awash in an epidemic of gun violence because we have the most lax and reckless gun control laws in the civilized world. Cities are dealing with waves of shootings and terrorism at the hands of criminals with easy access to legal guns. Nothing has changed in our political discourse since the shooting. Politicians and lawmakers are still beholden to the gun lobby and its stash of campaign cash. In fact, we have heard even more disturbing and extreme responses from pro-gun nuts in the wake of Newtown, suggesting all sorts of insane theories to back up their deadly obsession with assault weapons.   -  progressive

  •  The Mighty Boehner struck out.....Next up....pinch (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    JML9999, skohayes, a2nite

    hitter.....Mitch McConnell.

  •  So freakin DICK Armey staged an armed coup (15+ / 0-)

    and then blackmailed his own group for a huge payout and to leave them alone. Holy cow. The Mafia, it's jealous.

    I ♥ President Obama. ~ Yes, we did. Again.
    NOW: Hands off SocSec, Medicare and Medicaid. NO Grand Bargain.
    Rich pay a bit more. DoD take a bit less. End war on Afghanistan sooner.

    by OleHippieChick on Wed Dec 26, 2012 at 04:55:53 AM PST

    •  I read that last night (8+ / 0-)

      How bizarre- walking into the office with an armed guard, like he was afraid of being attacked.
      Then gives everything back for an $8 million payoff.
      Typical Republican.
      Similar things going on over at Breitbart.com, where Dana Loesch is suing the site to let her out of her contract. I think she may have though that what Armey did was a great way to make money.

      St. Louis talk radio host Dana Loesch, also a frequent guest on CNN, alleges in the suit filed in federal district court in St. Louis that the site is refusing to publish her work while "sabotag[ing] her attempts to labor in a similar fashion elsewhere through public misstatements and private threats to sue those who would otherwise employ Loesch."
      Loesch is seeking her freedom from the company and at least $75,000 in damages.
      Breitbart.com is "binding Loesch to what amounts to an indentured servitude in limbo," she charges in the suit, which was first reported by the St. Louis Post-Dispatch.
      http://www.buzzfeed.com/...

      Isn't this fun, watching all these meltdowns?

      “We are not a nation that says ‘don’t ask, don’t tell.’ We are a nation that says ‘out of many, we are one.’” -Barack Obama

      by skohayes on Wed Dec 26, 2012 at 05:03:15 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  The Greedy Koch Bros are baaack (4+ / 0-)
    Hurricane Sandy was the second most costly in American history, leaving 100 lives lost, over $50 billion in devastation and tens of thousands of damaged or destroyed homes. Legislative efforts to help those who survived Hurricane Sandy’s wrath will reach a major stumbling block.

    Earlier this week, AFP, which is chaired by Koch and believed to be financed by several other plutocrats from the New York City region, released a letter warning members of Congress not to vote for the proposed federal aid package for victims of the storm that swept New Jersey, New York City and much of the surrounding area in October. An announcement on the group’s website says that the vote next week for the Sandy aid package will be a “key vote”—meaning senators who support sending money for reconstruction could face an avalanche of attack ads in their next election. Already, opposition to the bill is growing, although it passed one procedural hurdle last night.

    There is some legitimate criticism with aspects of the legislation, including the fact that some of the money will go to non-Sandy related reconstruction efforts in disaster areas. For AFP, however, the whole bill must die and victims of the storm deserve no help from the government.

    http://www.thenation.com/...

    “We are not a nation that says ‘don’t ask, don’t tell.’ We are a nation that says ‘out of many, we are one.’” -Barack Obama

    by skohayes on Wed Dec 26, 2012 at 04:57:50 AM PST

  •  Need it be said - Dick Armey belongs in prison n/t (4+ / 0-)
  •  Armey was my Congressman, regretfully (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    skohayes, a2nite, glitterscale

    He was a jackass then and now it is unchanged.

    His tenure at UNT was marked by complaints from females about his methods of raising or attempting to raise their grades.

    He is multi-times married as a result of his philandering ways.

    In a state with many embarrassing politicians, Armey and Bush stand out as phony cowboys, both being born and raised in northern climes.  I can hardly wait for dimwit Armey to figure out that Stephenson has agreed to voluntarily fund Freedom Works gifts to Armey of $400,000 per year only.  What if he does not and Freedom Works tells Armey it has no money to pay him?  Justice!

  •  I call BS on that WaPo article (0+ / 0-)


    there is no 'holstering' of weapons allowed by law in the District of Columbia - neither concealed nor open carry, except by law enforcement officers on duty.    That little 'holstering' flourish in the article is either an indication of a crime in progress or an outright lie.

    "Kossacks are held to a higher standard. Like Hebrew National hot dogs." - blueaardvark

    by louisev on Wed Dec 26, 2012 at 05:07:49 AM PST

    •  There is no claim it was done legally (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      pelagicray, Laconic Lib

      The rules seldom apply to them, after all.

      When you are right you cannot be too radical; when you are wrong, you cannot be too conservative. --Martin Luther King Jr.

      by Egalitare on Wed Dec 26, 2012 at 06:03:52 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  i find it difficult to believe (0+ / 0-)

        that even Dick Armey is that stupid to have an armed aide in the Capitol.  I'm sitting in a Capitol office right now - nobody gets in with weapons except law enforcement.

        "Kossacks are held to a higher standard. Like Hebrew National hot dogs." - blueaardvark

        by louisev on Wed Dec 26, 2012 at 06:11:38 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  They didn't say the Capitol (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Egalitare, DSPS owl

          It said Capitol HILL, which, iirc, is a neighborhood.

          It's not likely a group like freedom works has an office in the Capitol proper.

          •  The address on the bunch's web page puts them (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Egalitare

            here near Union Station. And yes, the armed guy was likely illegal in D.C. Would have been interesting if he'd been seen by Metro or Capitol Hill police.

            The only foes that threaten America are the enemies at home, and those are ignorance, superstition, and incompetence. [Elbert Hubbard]

            by pelagicray on Wed Dec 26, 2012 at 08:26:23 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  Someone at FreedomWorks would have to... (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Laconic Lib

              ...report the "offense", right? It's not like those associated with that organization welcome "jack-booted Big Gummint thugs" to regularly and without advanced notice check them for full and complete compliance. Further, what are the odds of such a report being made if you likely believe the statute is Unconstitutional/Unjust/UnAmerican to begin with?

              When you are right you cannot be too radical; when you are wrong, you cannot be too conservative. --Martin Luther King Jr.

              by Egalitare on Wed Dec 26, 2012 at 09:08:47 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  Could have been spotted going in or escorting (0+ / 0-)

                the people off premises which implies out of the building. Pure chance. Anyone "holstering a handgun at his waist" visible on the street in D.C. and spotted by law enforcement is in a bit of a spot. It is a curious little side line to the story. Be interesting to find who was carrying and how.

                By the way, for those not familiar with the area, Capitol Police are very much in evidence with permanent posts close by. Go here and here  and look at Street View east. Those are permanent check points at the western base of the Capitol grounds. No trucks, tour buses, campers are allowed further and city buses have to stop for a check. Same applies to the east on Constitution and Pennsylvania. Every now and then I see some truck or camper that ignored the obvious and rather ugly signs swarmed by Capitol Police.

                The only foes that threaten America are the enemies at home, and those are ignorance, superstition, and incompetence. [Elbert Hubbard]

                by pelagicray on Wed Dec 26, 2012 at 10:00:52 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  Maybe I spent too much time... (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  mmacdDE

                  ...hanging out with the unsavory elements in my neighborhood growing up, but I wouldn't be flouting the law in DC in Public view when all I have to do is walk in with a briefcase, change my "attire" for desired effect in the confines of FreedomWorks, then "undress" when the deed is done.

                  He didn't have to march the dismissed employees out of the offices at visible gunpoint: he merely needed to flash the alleged holstered weapon on cue (could have been a toy for all anyone knows) then after the "escort duty" was over replace the gun (or prop) in a briefcase and be on his merry way with the Armeys in tow.

                  When you are right you cannot be too radical; when you are wrong, you cannot be too conservative. --Martin Luther King Jr.

                  by Egalitare on Wed Dec 26, 2012 at 10:24:40 AM PST

                  [ Parent ]

  •  Can we talk? Not until a key question is addressed (6+ / 0-)

    that no one seems to want to discuss:  How many children should we allow to die every year to protect the Second Amendment from any sensible federal regulation?  Currently it is about 3k per year.  Is that about the right amount?  Is a lower or higher number the right amount?

    Just like with automobile deaths, we strive to make cars safer to reduce deaths, but we could never eliminate all deaths.  So what is the acceptable number of deaths?  

    (IMHO it should be significantly lower than it is now.)

    To most on the side of more gun regulations the answer is usually NONE, but that is not realistic as some deaths will still occur no matter what we do (and as a society we already agree that some amount of children die every year in auto fatalities, even if we try to reduce it with laws and safety features).  Yet on the gun absolutist side this shall never be talked about because it would mean admitting that their sacred guns are indeed killing children every single day.

    Then they came for me - and by that time there was nobody left to speak up.

    by DefendOurConstitution on Wed Dec 26, 2012 at 05:13:57 AM PST

  •  At RedBait;idiotic discussion re;should Christians (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    skohayes

    pray for Obama or not? Erik likes to mix religious babble in with large doses of vile, hallucinated political commentary. Hopefully Armed Armey will take over that waste land of adolescent Rand worship and turn it into mulch as he empties the petty cash drawer to by Viagra.

  •  This is to reiterate ... (4+ / 0-)

    ... that WaPo piece on Dick Armey and FreedomWorks is a MUST READ. I thought that $8 million dollar golden parachute he got was astounding, but reading the backstory (a story suppressed until after the election) was jaw-dropping. Lots of financial questions raised, too. And Joe Walsh for good measure.

  •  That graphic shows we've made a lot of (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    ban nock, leu2500

    progress since the Carter Administration.

    For whatever that's worth.

  •  You ask, "can we talk?" (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    VectorScalar

    First you have to say what you want to talk about. By your graph I guess you mean the higher number of assault deaths in the US than OECD countries. But I bet you don't want to talk about people kicking each other to death, or driving cars into each other on purpose, do you? That's included in your graph, and the US is a very violent place. Too much anger, especially in city people, suburb people, and most places called urban.

    You also might say "gun violence" too, but I bet you don't want to talk about suicide, or do you? Because mostly gun violence in the US means suicide, two to one.

    If you were getting down to it you'd probably say gun homicide and now I'd know we were getting somewhere. And that's a conversation we very much need to have, because young, low income, guys, in big cities, are killing each other at horrifically high rates, and though the number of these murders is dropping very quickly any is too high for me.

    Is that what you want to talk about?

    How big is your personal carbon footprint?

    by ban nock on Wed Dec 26, 2012 at 05:39:06 AM PST

    •  gun violence (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Egalitare, DSPS owl, Dezza, Laconic Lib

      I live in Newtown. What did you think I wanted to talk about?

      I'm in for a comprehensive conversation but I'm also in for first steps.

      Don't let a comprehensive solution get in the way of a better assault weapons and multiclip cartridge ban than we had form 1994-2004.

      "Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies." - Groucho Marx

      by Greg Dworkin on Wed Dec 26, 2012 at 05:50:43 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  I grew up very close to Newtown in Stratford. (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Greg Dworkin, VectorScalar

        Newton was one of those mass shootings by a crazy person. Those kinds of things are horrific but thankfully rare. Why not call it mass shootings by mentally disturbed people?

        By lumping it with all those suicides we lose sight of what we are talking about.

        If you wish to have a conversation about restrictions on firearms we're going to have to get technical, specific, and realize that firearm restrictions might not have much to do with preventing mass shootings by mentally disturbed people in the future. A firearm restriction by itself is ok, we can do that, we did that before, and I believe it would be legal, enforceable, and legislatively possible.

        I don't wish to get mired down in semantics, but you can see how difficult it is to say what exactly it is we wish to talk about.

        How big is your personal carbon footprint?

        by ban nock on Wed Dec 26, 2012 at 06:16:49 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  not really (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          ban nock, Dezza, Laconic Lib

          accept small first steps and there's nothing to be mired in. Accept that there's a more comprehensive approach also needed and and assault weapons and multiclip ban isn't the end.

          But do that. The same weapon was used in NY to gun down firefighters. Ban it.

          "Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies." - Groucho Marx

          by Greg Dworkin on Wed Dec 26, 2012 at 06:26:42 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  I can't help notice (0+ / 0-)

            That graphic you posted shows a downturn in 'assault deaths' before the Federal 'assault weapons' ban, continuing on roughly the same trajectory during the period of the ban, and which continued or accelerated after expiration.

            Thank you for pointing the way; I was looking for just such a graphic representation.  I think some digging for the original OECD study is in order.

        •  Passing off shooting as just another shooting "by (0+ / 0-)

          a crazy person." means we don't have to take responsibility for changing thins.  I happen to think this is a cop out.

    •  Not just cities (0+ / 0-)

      It is in all parts of US including rural areas.

  •  FreedomWorks (5+ / 0-)

    How many "grass-roots organizations" have a chairman?  And how many can afford to pay $8 million to have their chairman step down and walk away?

    •  Boy, oh boy. These reclusive gazillionaires who (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Stude Dude, 88kathy, Laconic Lib

      seem to be running our/their government sure like their reclusiveness and behind-the-scenes status, don't they?  We need to keep their names front and center where they can be roundly criticized for their power games and not be allowed to hide behind their pitiful minions like Eric Cantor, Kevin McCarthy and the Tea Party buffoons in DC.  Norquist is now in the public eye, which has forced people to ask why he holds sway over the politicians.  Let's get all their names out there all the time.  Keep poking at their privacy and ability to do business in the shadows.  

      Building a better America with activism, cooperation, ingenuity and snacks.

      by judyms9 on Wed Dec 26, 2012 at 06:52:06 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  FreedomWorks, just like the (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Laconic Lib

      Tea Party has NEVER been a "grass-roots organization. They both were started and funded by corporate interests and the RWNJ's went along with the program and never understood they were being used "against their self-interests".

      "I'm totally pro-choice in the matter of abortion. But of course I'm also so radically pro-life that I think every person from birth onward must have full and affordable access to healthcare." - Gail Collins

      by gritsngumbo on Wed Dec 26, 2012 at 07:05:02 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  If my grass-roots were like Freedomworks... (0+ / 0-)

      I'd be down at the garden center looking at boxes of "weed and feed", and something to take care of the grubs...

  •  David Gregory (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    judyms9, drmah, Laconic Lib
    Police investigating David Gregory for displaying illegal gun clip on-air
    The Washington Metropolitan Police Department is investigating “Meet the Press” host David Gregory for a potential violation of the District of Columbia’s gun laws, a spokesman for the department confirmed to The Hill.

    While interviewing National Rifle Association (NRA) CEO Wayne LaPierre on Sunday, Gregory held up what appeared to be a 30-round magazine to ask if it should be banned. The cartridge is illegal in Washington, D.C., where “Meet the Press” is filmed.

    •  Inviting national cvg of their own ineptitude.. (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Laconic Lib

      Come to think of it, David Gregory is well-equiped for the contest.

      Off the fiscal cliff to the waiting jagged slivers of impending fiscal impalement. Out of the fiscal minefield and into the boiling pools of toxic fiscal sludge. -- (taken from The Hyperbolic Chamber: A Republican Primer for Moronmongering)

      by Rich N Mdriems on Wed Dec 26, 2012 at 07:00:11 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  "Of course no way to avoid gun violence" (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Laconic Lib, Minnesota Deb

    Huh? How about, we have no guns, there will be no gun violence?

    Another example of the level of indoctrination everybody in this country has undergone over decades.

    The idea that there's no way to avoid gun violence is absurd.

    Some people are intolerant, and I CAN'T STAND people like that. -- Tom Lehrer

    by TheCrank on Wed Dec 26, 2012 at 06:08:29 AM PST

  •  Richard J. Stephenson (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Bush Bites, Laconic Lib

    The man has had his share of controversy:
    http://politicalcorrection.org/...

    Media Matters may have missed a couple:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/...

    Cancer Treatment Centers of America was the subject of a Federal Trade Commission (FTC) complaint in 1993. The FTC alleged that CTCA made false claims regarding the success rates of certain cancer treatments in their promotional materials. This claim was settled in March 1996, requiring CTCA to discontinue use of any unsubstantiated claims in their advertising.[8] CTCA is also required to have proven, scientific evidence for all statements regarding the safety, success rates, endorsements, and benefits of their cancer treatments. CTCA was also required to follow various steps in order to report compliance to the FTC per the settlement.

    Cancer centers and hospitals in general (including Cancer Treatment Centers of America) have been the subjects of some controversy over their advertising.[9][10] Many doctors and other observers[11] have noted that many cancer organizations' advertising are sparsely regulated and, therefore, often contain unsupported and misleading claims as to the efficacy of their cancer treatments.[9][10][11]

    In 2001, the FDA issued CTCA a Warning Letter concerning three clinical trials that were conducted in violation of FDA requirements.[12]

    Others have simply gotten old. I prefer to think I've been tempered by time.

    by Just Bob on Wed Dec 26, 2012 at 06:22:59 AM PST

    •  Interesting. (0+ / 0-)

      I think a lot of those clinical trials are viewed as nothing more than revenue sources for less scrupulous providers.

      They probably try to show good results so the drug companies will pay them for future trials.

      "Michael Moore, who was filming a movie about corporate welfare called 'Capitalism: A Love Story,' sought and received incentives."

      by Bush Bites on Wed Dec 26, 2012 at 07:07:54 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  Doc: Any thoughts on Cancer Treatment Centers... (0+ / 0-)

    ....of America?

    I see their commercials all the time and wonder how they can be better than MD Anderson or whatever.

    Now that I see they're owned by a Teabagger, I wonder if they're any good at all.

    "Michael Moore, who was filming a movie about corporate welfare called 'Capitalism: A Love Story,' sought and received incentives."

    by Bush Bites on Wed Dec 26, 2012 at 06:25:59 AM PST

    •  not in a position to comment (0+ / 0-)

      don't know much about them, but I would always think to look at academic centers first.

      "Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies." - Groucho Marx

      by Greg Dworkin on Wed Dec 26, 2012 at 06:29:07 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  I've long suspected that those CTCOAs are (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Stude Dude

      just patriotic sounding last-resort places for desperate cancer patients, much like the old laetrile clinics in Mexico and the phony tumor grabbing Tony Agpaoa of the Philippines.

      Building a better America with activism, cooperation, ingenuity and snacks.

      by judyms9 on Wed Dec 26, 2012 at 06:44:42 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Those ads just seem odd. (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Laconic Lib

        First of all, they diss all the other cancer hospitals as not giving a sh*t about their patients, then they sell themselves through an emotional message versus any kind of statistics of success rates or whatever.

        The ads work, though. My girlfriend felt guilty about not doing enough for her mom when she died of cancer after being hammered with those ads.

        "Michael Moore, who was filming a movie about corporate welfare called 'Capitalism: A Love Story,' sought and received incentives."

        by Bush Bites on Wed Dec 26, 2012 at 06:58:05 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

    •  Used to work there... (0+ / 0-)

      ... a few years after the FTC investigation mentioned above. Knowing what was going on behind the scenes, their ads -- and the public image they  attempt to present -- do nothing but disgust me.

  •  NPR this morning aired a "news" (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Laconic Lib

    story and interview with a returning Iowa congressman in which no mention was made of the fact that at least part of the reason so many Republicans were re-elected to the House is that Dems were gerrymandered out of viable districts,

    remember for headline purposes that the tea party is the Republican party
    and the tea party was mentioned as a real political party, with no mention of how Koch et al. money paid for its rise.

    We are often so identified with whatever thoughts we may be having that we don’t realize the thoughts are a commentary on reality, and not reality itself. -- Gangaji

    by Mnemosyne on Wed Dec 26, 2012 at 06:41:04 AM PST

    •  NPR is pretty weak these days. n/t (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Laconic Lib

      "Michael Moore, who was filming a movie about corporate welfare called 'Capitalism: A Love Story,' sought and received incentives."

      by Bush Bites on Wed Dec 26, 2012 at 07:02:10 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  NPR is no longer a credible (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Laconic Lib

      news organization. After the RWNJ's started threatening to cut their funding because of their "liburl" stance, the made a hard right turn and never corrected back to the center.

      "I'm totally pro-choice in the matter of abortion. But of course I'm also so radically pro-life that I think every person from birth onward must have full and affordable access to healthcare." - Gail Collins

      by gritsngumbo on Wed Dec 26, 2012 at 07:20:04 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  You know that, (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Laconic Lib

        and I know that, but I post occasional comments of this sort because I also know these threads are read by Beltway types. And I still harbor a(n increasingly) tenuous hope that maybe, just maybe, someone at NPR will read one of these things and grow a spine and hire some real reporters.

        We are often so identified with whatever thoughts we may be having that we don’t realize the thoughts are a commentary on reality, and not reality itself. -- Gangaji

        by Mnemosyne on Wed Dec 26, 2012 at 07:29:16 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  I wish you well in your quest, seriously. (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Mnemosyne, Laconic Lib

          "Hope springs eternal...at least as long as seed catalogs are printed"

          "I'm totally pro-choice in the matter of abortion. But of course I'm also so radically pro-life that I think every person from birth onward must have full and affordable access to healthcare." - Gail Collins

          by gritsngumbo on Wed Dec 26, 2012 at 07:48:04 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

  •  We're blaming the wrong people, clearly. (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Egalitare, gritsngumbo, Laconic Lib

    Europe is at fault here, by providing a ridiculously low standard of comparison with the obvious goal of making the US look bad.  I think we need to decide whether sanctions or a more direct approach is called for.

    You know, I sometimes think if I could see, I'd be kicking a lot of ass. -Stevie Wonder at the Glastonbury Festival, 2010

    by Rich in PA on Wed Dec 26, 2012 at 07:07:35 AM PST

  •  It's the guns, stupid (3+ / 0-)

    Other countries have their share of mental illness.  Other countries enjoy violent video games.  Other countries listen to rock 'n' roll music.  Other countries have gays and lesbians.  Other countries have mindless television programming.  Other countries don't impose religion in their schools.  

    But other countries don't provide easy access to firearms.

  •  That chart at the top ? (0+ / 0-)

    The rise and fall of violent crime rate matches the use of leaded gasoline almost perfectly. Interesting article in Jan/Feb Mother Jones, not yet online. Tetraethyl lead makes people stupid and violent.
    Could it really be that simple ?

    The free market is not the solution, the free market is the problem.

    by Azazello on Wed Dec 26, 2012 at 07:36:58 AM PST

  •  Enough wth the quotes, (0+ / 0-)

    Referencing the mentally ill as a major cause of gun violence and predicting who is going to do such things! 1, mentally ill people are a small % of the cause. 2, how in the fuck are you going to try and figure out who might do something?  The experts will tell you it is all most impossible.  The bets way to do it is by looking at prior behavior.

    •  you should know what's being discsused (0+ / 0-)

      to post is not to eniorse unless explicitly stated.

      "Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies." - Groucho Marx

      by Greg Dworkin on Wed Dec 26, 2012 at 08:19:00 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Post vs. endorsed (0+ / 0-)

        Then maybe you should add some of that snappy commentary to show where you stand.  I am tired of people, including at DK, saying it is the mentally ill.  BTW, given the other comments, it would appear others had similar reactions.

  •  even better: Tea Party = Talk Radio Party (0+ / 0-)

    identifying the main source of their disinformation, their unity of stupidity and action, and their motivational gods, might have useful branding repercussions in the MSM.

    This is a list of 76 universities for Rush Limbaugh that endorse global warming denial, racism, sexism, and GOP lies by broadcasting sports on over 170 Limbaugh radio stations.

    by certainot on Wed Dec 26, 2012 at 08:07:31 AM PST

  •  Why can't we get the police (0+ / 0-)

    to go to convicted felons houses and check for guns. Especially if they are on probation? If they are not supposed to have guns and if they do they get to finish out their sentence  

    Clinton/ Warren 2016

    by artr2 on Wed Dec 26, 2012 at 10:09:39 AM PST

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