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In my role as a school district administrator in Washington State, I've had plenty of opportunity to be frustrated with the Washington State Legislature.  Those frustrations are about to completely be eclipsed by the proposal of a Republican representative:

If Camas Rep. Liz Pike gets her way, teachers will carry guns in Washington State... It's an idea that is sure to be met with a lot of debate, especially because the central idea is to put guns in classrooms with children present.

The premise of Pike's gun program is to put teachers through a voluntary mental examination and a week-long training session to prepare them for carrying weapons in public. The cost would be paid for by the teachers themselves, thus keeping the schools from enduring any additional expenses.

This is complete insanity to me on so many levels...

True, Washington's House of Representatives has a Democratic majority, so the likelihood of this proposal making it out of committee alive is low.  But radio station KXL is reporting that there are 5 other proposals in the works allowing teachers to carry weapons in Washington State.  Add to this that sellout Medina Democrat Senator Rondey Tom has allied with DINO Tim Sheldon of Shelton to form a coalition with the Senate Republicans.  His reward is to be named Majority Leader in exchange for giving air to whatever crazy Republican proposals that may surface.  There's enough volitility and uncertainty at the legislative level that some form of this idea may actually make it to law or at least be extraordinarily disruptive in the legislative process.    

In my school district, one of my responsibilities is risk management, so I oversee our contracts for liability and property insurance.  Our costs have been rising every year so we now spend close to $200,000 each year on insurance (this equals roughly the cost of 3 classroom teachers for salaries and benefits).  Park's bill requires prospective concealed carry teachers to undergo a mental evaluation and training that they must pay for individually, giving it the color of cost neutrality for school districts.  Carry will be completely voluntary and only the district superintendent and local police will know who is carrying (right, nothing escapes the inquisitive minds of a school, trust me, there are few secrets and student and staff will know very quickly who is armed and who is not).

Without a doubt, our insurance costs will multiply, pushing more dollars away from the classroom.  Our policy provides coverage for acts of staff while performing school district business.  This may result in us dropping this kind of coverage and becoming self insured.  Either way our costs go up and we become exposed to enormous risk. Of course, this is not the sole or even the overriding consideration.  We'll have to deal with the knowledge that people with guns may or may not be in our schools each and every day and we may not even know who they are or even if they are.  Then one day a student will take a gun from a teacher and do harm to innocents.

My hope lies in the potential that the House will stop this or the Governor vetoes what ever form of this legislation may make it that far.  Real potential for improving security in our schools lies in providing school resource officers.  They wouldn't stop Newton (banning large capacity magazines and clips and easily concealable assault rifles will mitigate those kinds of incidents).  They're most effective in developing information about threats so they could be stopped before they materialize.  Not 100%, but really the best response we could find.

Rep. Pike needs to know her proposal is not the solution.   Thanks to commenter Sharon Wraight, you can find Pike's facebook here, where she requested comments regarding her proposal.

Originally posted to lapin on Sat Dec 29, 2012 at 08:22 PM PST.

Also republished by Community Spotlight.

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Comment Preferences

  •  Huh? (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Bob Love, drmah, kyril
    ...nothing escapes the inquisitive minds of a school, trust me, there are few secrets and student and staff will know very quickly who is armed and who is not.
    We'll have to deal with the knowledge that people with guns may or may not be in our schools each and every day and we may not even know who they are or even if they are.
  •  Oh good lord (22+ / 0-)

    As if we don't have enough problems in our schools. The HS my daughter went to - South Kitsap - was/is horribly overcrowded. I can't even imagine the chaos if a student with bad intent were to steal a gun from a teacher. Or if, gods forbid, a teacher or admin flipped out. This is just insane!

    Thank your stars you're not that way/Turn your back and walk away/Don't even pause and ask them why/Turn around and say 'goodbye'/Just wish them well.....

    by Purple Priestess on Sat Dec 29, 2012 at 08:48:29 PM PST

  •  Liz Pike welcomes feedback at her facebook site (9+ / 0-)

    according to the P-I story I read earlier.  Hint hint.

    "I was a big supporter of waterboarding" - Dick Cheney 2/14/10

    by Bob Love on Sat Dec 29, 2012 at 09:16:54 PM PST

  •  If no one knows who is armed, how could a parent (13+ / 0-)

    make a well informed decision about keeping their child in that particular class?

    202-224-3121 to Congress in D.C. USE it! You can tell how big a person is by what it takes to discourage them. "We're not perfect, but they're nuts."--Barney Frank 01/02/2012

    by cany on Sat Dec 29, 2012 at 09:22:17 PM PST

  •  Hoodies, I assume, will be banned. (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    myboo, kyril, libdevil, mrkvica
    •  I've been known to wear a hood (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      drmah

      Or even a stocking cap.  Mostly because a lot of the buildings I've worked in are cold and drafty.  Thankfully, I am not so dusky skinned or young that keeping my head warm singles me out for arrest, persecution or execution.

      "And the President of the United States - would be seated right here. I would be here. And he would be here. I would turn - and there he’d be. I could pet ‘im." - Lewis Black

      by libdevil on Sun Dec 30, 2012 at 05:18:47 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  stellar idea! Let's see nut job teacher w/gun (6+ / 0-)

    pays for a whole weeks training so they can play hero and what... stand their ground against some mouthy kid. I don't think I want my grandkids in that school. Ever!!

    A danger foreseen is half avoided.

    by ncheyenne on Sat Dec 29, 2012 at 09:58:56 PM PST

  •  I'll say what no one has the nerve to say: The (20+ / 0-)

    teacher's job is to educate children in the class/subject they are qualified to teach.  That's what we pay them to do.  That part of the job is more than a full time job, for each hour in class requires at least another hour's preparation beyond the school day. The teacher is paid to eduate, not serve are police officer for the school corperation.  

    The concept that a teacher could find the time for a week's additional training or would have the funds to do such a thing is preposterous.  This has absolutely nothing to do with being a better teacher and is frivolous to even suggest.  

    Let the teacher's teach and let the school administration and local and state police deal with the security issues in their school.  

    •  The mere idea (13+ / 0-)

      that a week of training would be enough is absurd on its face.

      How long do privates in boot camp train with guns?

      How long do police trainees train?

      In both cases: MUCH longer than one week.

      One week is about long enough to learn to aim.

      To make the argument that the media has a left- or right-wing, or a liberal or a conservative bias, is like asking if the problem with Al-Qaeda is do they use too much oil in their hummus. Al Franken

      by Youffraita on Sun Dec 30, 2012 at 02:04:02 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  In Texas it was a year of training besides the (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Youffraita, AllisonInSeattle

        teacher already having to hold a CWL and the extensive training that went into that process.  

      •  Police firearms training is highly variable (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Youffraita

        I've seen the figure of forty hours quoted for some agencies. They're not primarily gunfighters, after all.

        My hometown police are better than average. They train officers on a darkened range with people tossing firecrackers and other people shouting realistic distractions during shoot/don't shoot drills.

      •  How long do police trainees train? (0+ / 0-)

        About the same. Probably not even a week.

        Most police "training" would be in other areas. Paperwork, how to deal with the public, de-escalate situations, drive, etc.

        But again, you just assume that it's some super secret ninja force that has 20,000 hours of practice with a gun in simulations.

    •  I tend to support gun use (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      mrkvica, drmah, winsock

      although I also am open to increased regulation.

      I am very middle-of-the-road about the gun debates in many ways in that I see the entire situation as extremely complex. I am not sure that it's not been politicized to the point of absolute sensationalism at that.

      And that's what really bothers me. This is bullshit militia-speak from the wingnutty right about arming teachers, for the love of God. Despite the fact that I do enjoy a bit of target shooting here and there, like bloody Hell if I would work someplace where I was REQUIRED to keep weapons around students of any age (and I am a teacher). There are all of these ridiculous issues that come up with this ranging from introducing personal ideology in classrooms with multicultural students or students with diverse needs, some of whom may have their own psychiatric issues or trauma stuff going on, to the basic fact that if I wanted to be a damned cop, I'd have gone into the business of being one. I draw the line at plagiarized papers. I'm not interested in being paid a nominal sum of money to be some kind of glorified rent-a-cop. To say nothing of the actual issue of how bullets ricochet indoors AND that this measure is meant to intimidate people into yanking their kids out of public schools, suggesting they are "really too dangerous to attend." Yep. Got it. Homeschool them or put them in Charter schools where they'll be "safe."

      It's transparent and totally fucked up.

      Click the ♥ to join us on the Black Kos front porch to review news & views written from a black pov - everyone is welcome.

      by mahakali overdrive on Sun Dec 30, 2012 at 02:45:48 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  fantasy is reality (14+ / 0-)

    It's all driven by the nihilistic fantasy in people's minds, reinforced by a million consequenceless killings in a billion media representations on a trillion TVs and movie screens.

    The fantasy is that anyone can just pick up a gun and instantly be magically transformed into Rambo. No recoil. No danger. Deadly weapon as cigarette lighter, as easy to use as flicking your Bic and lighting up a smoke after you've singlehandedly slaughtered all the "bad guys" like a cross between Uma Thurman in Kill Bill and James Bond.

    There's no use -- Americans are as hooked on this fantasy as they are on the one about how if we give it all to the rich, they'll benevolently "trickle" it down on us. It's all meant to reinforce the delusional notion that we are anything but serfs with no meaningful power whatsoever other than to supplicate ourselves to the prevalent socioeconomic paradigm of outright slavery disguised as absolute freedom, under which we live whether we recognize or acknowledge it or not.

    Guns are what passes for power in situations when people can perceive no recourse or possibility for justice in any aspect of their lives as they are lived, driving them to violence and nihilism as solutions to situations over which they perceive they have no legitimate control or hope for peaceable, productive resolution.

    "Some of you are going to die... martyrs, of course, to the Freedom that I will provide!"

    by emperor nobody on Sun Dec 30, 2012 at 03:26:55 AM PST

  •  idiots (7+ / 0-)

    drones are the way to go.
    have armed drones hovering over every school with the football coaches at the controls.
    anyone approaching looks suspicious- shoot them on the spot.

    of course none of this works unless you have the school janitor equipped with a flame thrower for emergency back up.

  •  Was surprised to see that her district... (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Joy of Fishes, drmah

    ...is essentially a suburb of Portland, OR. It was somehow easy for me to dismiss this as the idea of someone who lived in the Eastern mountains where the population is sparse enough and a critical mass of "proper purpose gun owning" (a term I am trying out: bear with me) households exist such that it appears it could be "doable."

    But Greater Portland??

    When you are right you cannot be too radical; when you are wrong, you cannot be too conservative. --Martin Luther King Jr.

    by Egalitare on Sun Dec 30, 2012 at 05:29:02 AM PST

  •  Tobacco products are not permitted (11+ / 0-)

    on school property but teachers can have guns?!

    •  You bleeding heart, anti-2A liberals just don't (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      AllisonInSeattle

      get it!  Just like the only solution to all economic problems (deficit, income inequality, recession, inflation, you name it!) is more tax cuts for the wealthiest, the only solution to the senseless gun deaths (of about 35k per year) is more guns all around!  Bonus when the guns can fire 3 dozen rounds in a couple of seconds and when armor piercing bullets are allowed to be bought by pretty much anyone!

      /snark, but sadly plenty of liberals/progressives/Democrats espouse this line when it comes to guns.

      Then they came for me - and by that time there was nobody left to speak up.

      by DefendOurConstitution on Sun Dec 30, 2012 at 07:10:36 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  That's so after an accidental shooting, there will (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      nipit

      be no smoking gun.

  •  Maybe (0+ / 0-)

    the teabaggers are hoping that the students will shoot the teachers.

    The Republican Party is now the sworn enemy of the United States of America.

    Listen to All Over The Place - we play all kinds of music!

    by TheGreatLeapForward on Sun Dec 30, 2012 at 05:58:03 AM PST

  •  I would postulate (4+ / 0-)
    The premise of Pike's gun program is to put teachers through a voluntary mental examination and a week-long training session to prepare them for carrying weapons in public. The cost would be paid for by the teachers themselves, thus keeping the schools from enduring any additional expenses.
    that any teacher actually wanting to do this should automatically be disqualified from carrying a loaded weapon around children.

    "It is not, you fucking liberal prick." ..My RW friend Dave's last words to me.

    by rb608 on Sun Dec 30, 2012 at 06:56:35 AM PST

  •  Practical questions for gun-pushers (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Joy of Fishes, drmah

    Who "protects" the children out at recess when the gun is in the school?  If the gun-toter is outside with the kids, who "protects" those inside?  Who pays the stipend for the teachers who carry?  Where does the teacher keep the gun - on her person?  in his desk?
    And the most important question:  What messages does an armed teacher send to kids about our culture?  

  •  And they get to pay for their own training (3+ / 0-)

    "Pike's proposal would require teachers to voluntarily go through mental health evaluations and gun training at their own expense before being allowed to carry their own guns on a belt or in a holster.'

    according to the Seattle Times
    the link

    Wonder which schools will be accredited there bubba

    human error never fails = : )

    by i saw an old tree today on Sun Dec 30, 2012 at 07:02:31 AM PST

  •  Yeah, I have learned so much from policemen (5+ / 0-)

    carrying guns.

    Towering over me in Grade 3 and chewing me out for not doing my homework is not one of them.

    The public should try to get into the legislature's gallery with a handgun and see how that works out.

    Mitt Romney rides off into the sunset in his Audi.

    by captainlaser on Sun Dec 30, 2012 at 07:50:58 AM PST

  •  so I've downloaded her campaign contributions (5+ / 0-)

    Looks like a mover and shaker for guns on every corner (Walmart, Kroger, 7-11), a lot of commercial shipping, Georgia Pacific, you know the same stuff, a lot of real estate concerns, a gun group that seems pretty commercial to me, gun owners action league, they seem to be everywhere

    But what I don't understand is-

    Washington Hospital Political Action Committee
    link

    Washington Medical Political Action Committee
    Why does this link to Dino Rossi

    And the health insurance companies, Cambria and Premera? Yes we do fling the money around

    Anyway here's her 2012 campaign contributions
    Ms Pikes money

    human error never fails = : )

    by i saw an old tree today on Sun Dec 30, 2012 at 07:52:42 AM PST

  •  No one even talks about the fact (5+ / 0-)

    that the teacher's first priority in the event of an armed intruder, is to get their students to safety.  While every school is required to conduct drills for such circumstances, kids are unpredictable.  The teacher needs to worry about getting their students--often 25 to 30 of them--to a safe place.  One cannot simply start shooting.  The chances of accidentally taking out a student would be too great.  Anyone suggesting teachers do this has clearly never spent time as the adult in a classroom trying to keep kids calm and safe in such a situation.  

    “It is the job of the artist to think outside the boundaries of permissible thought and dare say things that no one else will say."—Howard Zinn

    by musiclady on Sun Dec 30, 2012 at 07:58:24 AM PST

  •  If you haven't added this to your tweetlist (4+ / 0-)

    Gun Deaths

    you might do so.  Check out how many deaths occur in schools versus in the home.   I think we will need to have armed guards put in every home.  To protect us from Drunk Uncle (/snark).

    Mitt Romney rides off into the sunset in his Audi.

    by captainlaser on Sun Dec 30, 2012 at 08:04:54 AM PST

  •  Gun Owners Action League contributions $487,140 (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    lapin, Glen The Plumber, mrkvica

    In Washington, 2000-2012
    Total Named Cash Contributions for this report: $487,140.
    This is a database search and can't be linked so easily;
    Thanks Public Disclosure Commission, you are the best

    NRA $253,000 and change
    Total Named Cash Contributions for this report: $7,600.00
    Total Named Cash Contributions for this report: $246,300.00 (2 reports by spelling)

    human error never fails = : )

    by i saw an old tree today on Sun Dec 30, 2012 at 08:35:19 AM PST

  •  Make gun owners buy liability insurance (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    smokey545, mrkvica, Chrisfs, drmah

    It would solve all kinds of problems.

    What is valued is practiced. What is not valued is not practiced. -- Plato

    by RobLewis on Sun Dec 30, 2012 at 08:48:15 AM PST

  •  The first person shot at the 2009 Holocaust Museum (9+ / 0-)

    Was the armed guard. Arming our teachers is a dumb idea. Arming them by enriching the gun industry even more? When does it stop? When every American has twenty guns. A hundred guns?


    “You must be the change you wish to see in the world.” --Gandhi:

    by smokey545 on Sun Dec 30, 2012 at 09:59:21 AM PST

  •  I'm a teacher (5+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    kyril, mrkvica, Elizaveta, drmah, Starbrite

    (college) and maybe my students are armed, but I wouldn't know. (Especially the veterans like to talk about shooting things up, just in fun y'know.)  In any case, I'm the last person you'd want to trust with a gun. I can't even remember where I put my keys most of the time- and they're supposed to be on my person too.

    beam me up Scotty- there's no intelligent life down here

    by ladybug4you on Sun Dec 30, 2012 at 11:09:45 AM PST

    •  yes, yes and yes. If your classroom were full of (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      i saw an old tree today

      twenty-five 5 year old children, it could be even more likely you might be distracted.

    •  What a great point (0+ / 0-)

      Forgetfulness.  Me too - extremely forgetful particularly with 'stuff' (as opposed to facts)
      I wouldn't trust me with a gun either.

      Concerning the mental health check -  should the teachers therefore be screened for disorders past or present where forgetfulness can be a symptom?

      Which as I understand would include:
      ADD?
      Anxiety Disorders?
      Depression?

      I was diagnosed with ADD as an adult.  If I was a teacher presumably I could present this as a reason for NOT having to carry a gun if I didn't want to?.

      Coming to think of it - because the DSM is so broad and encapsulates such a huge percentage of the population and because anyone wanting any kind of therapy (paid for by insurers at least ) HAS to be given a diagnosis - what's to stop teachers from using this as a loophole to avoid having to carry a gun?

      And for these few teachers who might present a danger if given a gun - how is the mental health screening process going to spot them exactly?

      As a parent I for one would want to know the EXACT procedure before letting my kids into a school that had this policy.

      Frodo: What are we holding onto, Sam? Sam: That there's some good in this world, Mr. Frodo... and it's worth fighting for.

      by Starbrite on Mon Dec 31, 2012 at 09:03:27 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  Not a new idea in Washington (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    bleeding blue, kyril

    Pam Roach, state Senator (R) from Enumclaw, has proposed this or similar for years.

    Links >.>

    http://community.seattletimes.nwsource.com/...

    http://seattletimes.com/...

    Never say yada yada, when ooba tooba will do.

    by Desolations Angel on Sun Dec 30, 2012 at 11:13:08 AM PST

  •  It'll be fun next time GOP goes after teachers (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    kyril, lapin, drmah

    On the bright side, it'll be a bit more exciting next time the Republicans go after the teachers' unions, cut pay, cut benefits, steal pensions, enlarge classrooms, etc., especially if all those armed teachers turn out at the state capitol for protests.

  •  End of my daughters teaching career (8+ / 0-)

        My daughter has been teaching in Wa. for over ten years and has received numerous awards for outstanding service. She has become so frustrated by confusing new testing policies that this may drive another excellent teacher out of the school system. She is a vegan marathon runner who after school mentors a girls running group so her inspiration will be lost to those kids as well. What a shame these kids education will be so compromised at the alter of gun rights madness.

  •  Does this have anything to do with the NRA and (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Desert Rose, AllisonInSeattle

    ALEC?  

  •  Does anyone have counter proposals? (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    mahakali overdrive, Desert Rose

    It seems to me that the more practical approach is helping school districts to better help teachers, parents and kids in dealing with mental illness issues as they arise.  More resources are needed in the non-gun areas.

    Apparently, teachers are generally discouraged from and perhaps are punished for suggesting to parents that a child might need mental health evaluation by specialists.  Instead, an evaluation ought to be mandated if a teacher has an observation that might be valid.

    At the earliest stages of mental illness, the problems are subtle and confusing to sort out.  Parents are most likely to be in denial, considering the stigma involved and the tragedy that this represents to families.  

    That would probably be a set of rules at various levels that might not be easy to push through, and it may be that the gun thing may just be a point that can be satisfied more quickly.

    The problem is that schools need support and resources for the mission that they are entrusted with, not expensive distractions born of sensationalism.  

    And how about funding for librarians and music or art teachers and programs?  Basically if children are expected to grow up as sane and productive members of society, there needs to be a full spectrum of learning resources that can engage kids in any possible way.  

    Cutting these types of programs in favor of more standardized testing and teaching to the test is going to worsen the situation not make it better.

    The direction we are going in is the opposite of the right direction.  

    Who in the state legislature is addressing this?

    hope that the idiots who have no constructive and creative solutions but only look to tear down will not win the day.

    by Stuart Heady on Sun Dec 30, 2012 at 12:04:40 PM PST

  •  Land of the free, home of the brave. (4+ / 0-)

    What a joke this nation is becoming.  

    A bunch of privileged assholes, running around afraid of our own shadows.   Each house a castle, each citizen an emperor.  

    We refuse to properly fund our schools, as we "debate" arming all the teachers.   Is that really the direction our "society" is swirling down?  

    So much for a positive vision of the future.   It's every man for himself, apparently.  

    The tent got so big it now stands for nothing.

    by Beelzebud on Sun Dec 30, 2012 at 12:05:29 PM PST

  •  As a teacher, I would refuse to teach (6+ / 0-)

    This is a completely batshit proposal.

    Tipped and rec'd for idiotic proposals of the day.

    There are so many things wrong with this that I don't even know where to begin: some combination of Tea Party wingnuttery, anti-public school hatred, paranoid fearmongering, infringement on peoples' rights, all sorts of shit going on with this one.

    Click the ♥ to join us on the Black Kos front porch to review news & views written from a black pov - everyone is welcome.

    by mahakali overdrive on Sun Dec 30, 2012 at 02:37:05 PM PST

  •  I have an honest question... (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Desert Rose

    Granted, my children will be homeschooled so it's of no direct importance to me personally.

    But if you people can't trust teachers to do this, why would you trust your children's custody to them anyway? There are many ways to harm a child, most of them psychological in nature.

    If it's not an "intention" thing, but rather a "training" thing, I suggest that you take a close look at how little and how meager the training is for police. I know you all want to believe that they're out there constantly going through some special forces obstacle course dodging ninja swords and making crack shots with their handguns from the hip, but it's not that at all.

    We're talking a few hours of training, plus some slight and minimum range time each month where they practice target shooting.

    So what gives? Do you not trust the intentions of teachers, or do you not trust the competence of teachers, or do you not trust either?

    •  Really, sir, or madam (3+ / 0-)

      you are completely missing the point and condescending to boot with your "you people" attitude.  Its not necessarily the teachers but the students.  Teachers are surrounded all day long by students, and it would only take one moment of inattention on the part of the teacher to result in them losing control of a weapon.  Police are not surrounded by children all day long like teachers are.

      Teachers are teachers, not armed guards.

      •  I do not think you know what you're talking about. (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        drmah

        Do you think this is a problem that only came into existence the moment we started talking about allowing teachers to carry concealed?

        Do you think that in the past hundred years no one has wondered to himself what might happen if your attention wandered, and someone bad grabbed your handgun away from you? What with police and prison guards and so forth?

        Police are not surrounded by children all day long
        No, they're surrounded by convicts and arrestees and the like. Adults, big strong ones, that have bad motives and reason to want to grab a gun.

        But somehow children are such a threat that we have to worry about them wrestling a gun away from a teacher.

        I hardly feel it worth mentioning that modern holsters are designed to make it difficult for someone to walk up and simply pull it out. They recommend attaching them to a belt that would support your weight before it would break.

        But this is sort of moot, since the proposals I've seen all recommend concealed carry, which makes it even more absurd to suggest that they'll have the firearms taken from them.

        •  In a perfect world... (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          AllisonInSeattle

          In a perfect world everything works wonderfully.
          In the real world much less so.
          Conditions in a prison are much different than in a school and in police stations, officers still can still lose their gun.
          It just happened in New Jersey. http://www.reuters.com/...
          And let's not forget about FT Hood where someone went on a spree on a military base.

          I guess those 'modern holsters' don't work as well as you think they do...
          Those incidents happen with people with regular training. (and btw NY troopers have 90 hrs of gun training, and regular training after that). http://www.troopers.ny.gov/... )

          It's not teachers as a whole that's the problem. Vast majority are just fine. But you only need a tiny few that aren't and it's a huge problem. There's 90,000 public schools in the US, if you are 5 teachers in each school, that's 450,000 extra guns.  Now by statistics alone, a certain number of these guns are going to wound or kill someone accidentally each year. I don't know how many that is. Let's say its really low. Lets say not 1%, but 1/100 of that. So 0.01%, or one gun out of 10,000 wounds or kills someone accidentally every year.

          Apply that to 450,000 guns and you get 45 kids or teachers accidentally wounded or killed EACH YEAR. And there's no guarantee that having those guns is going to prevent shootings anyways.  Columbine had two resource officers based at the school. They couldn't do anything.
          45 kids or teachers wounded or killed a year is a perverse 'tax' or 'insurance premium' to pay to try to prevent 27 kids from dying especially when it's likely it won't even do that.

           (gee, think those extra gun and ammo sales might be a reason, NRA is pushing this, they get a bunch of sponsorship from gun companies, time to give some back...).  

          •  0.005% seems to be a good number (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            lapin, AllisonInSeattle

            So I did some more digging.  The CDC says that about 14,000 people went to the ER for accidental gunshot injuries.
            There's about 270,000,000 guns in the US . 14,000/270,000,000 is about 0.00005, or 0.005%,
            so out of 450,000 guns (at 5 armed teachers per school), yo have 22.5 kids or teachers wounded or killed each year.
            So you're shooting just under the number of people who died at the NJ shooting each  year to prevent that kind of shooting from happening.  Yeah that makes sense...

          •  I have not forgotten about Ft. Hood. (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            drmah

            If Democrats are seriously considering disarming the military, please know that you have my whole-hearted and earnest support in this matter. Many lives would be saved if Barry couldn't order capricious drone bombings in sovereign nations.

            I do advise against such action, because though it is absolutely deserved, there's no way you can prevail against Democratic Party leadership which loves the idea of sending rampaging maniacs to other countries to do whatever in the hell they like. If you try to fight that political battle, you will lose.

            As for armed teachers, I'm not sure why you're so upset about accidental deaths. Surely if you were upset by this, you'd be proposing Assault Vehicle Bans, and trying to limit the number of cylinders in internal combustion engines.

            I do not think there is any merit in the type of firearms regulation progressives support. You are all acting very hysterically, you ignore those statistics that don't flatter your arguments, and you are trying to punish millions of people for the crimes a single deranged individual committed.

    •  I don't want the janitors armed, the pastors, the (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      i saw an old tree today

      clerks at the grocery store, the bank tellers, the librarians, don't want my neighbors packing when I chat with them at the mailbox -- I don't want More People Armed.

      There are 1001 things that can go wrong, and about 1/1000th of a percent of one thing that might maybe in some alternative fantasy go right.

      Next question?

      This health care system is a moral atrocity. Dr. Ralphdog

      by AllisonInSeattle on Sun Dec 30, 2012 at 11:01:49 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  Appaling absolutely appaling... (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    mrkvica, AllisonInSeattle, drmah

    As someone in WA with kids the same age as those killed in Newton, I am sputtering right now with disbelief.

    Yes the liability will go through the roof. Hey but WA state has always adequately funded education (just ignore that court order thingy) Asking teachers to pay for their own mental examination and weapons training is beyond the pale. What if no teachers in a school volunteer to be trained? And where would a teacher put a gun so that she/he can easily use it in a dangerous situation yet not accessible to children?

    Having guns at school does nothing to PREVENT a shooting. It can only at best stop a shooter once he has already started spraying bullets around. Even in situations where there have been armed people around it hasn't appeared to be much help.

    Like someone pointed out the teachers would be focused on getting the kids to safety they can't be trying to shoot down a moving target at the same time.

    I'll be checking out this person fb page.

  •  Teachers would be damned either way (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    mrkvica, lapin

    Some parents will scream their heads off if they find out a teacher has a weapon in the presence of their little precious.  And just as many will scream their heads off if the teachers aren't willing to kill and die for their meager paychecks.

    "And the President of the United States - would be seated right here. I would be here. And he would be here. I would turn - and there he’d be. I could pet ‘im." - Lewis Black

    by libdevil on Sun Dec 30, 2012 at 05:16:14 PM PST

    •  Suddenly no one is worried what the children are (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      lapin

      learning.  All this false concern about education standards is being thrown out the window and the only evaluation that matterss about a teacher is her firing range score.

  •  There's always one gun derper.... (0+ / 0-)

    ...in each state legislature.

    Maricopa County residents should start up a group of armed Hispanic veterans to patrol areas around tony schools in Scottsdale for the childrens' safety.   I'm sure Arpai-gabacho would like that...

    9-11 changed everything? Well, Katrina changed it back.

    by varro on Sun Dec 30, 2012 at 06:02:44 PM PST

  •  My question to (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    AllisonInSeattle

    these idiots who will mandate that a teacher has to carry a weapon is, "And, who's going to pay if a teacher shoots a student while trying to shoot someone that is shooting at the students?

    There may be teachers out there that do think its a good idea to carry a gun in school. But, if the people that have guns are shooting the police, like the killing that happened in Kansas, how does anyone expect a teacher to be able to stop someone?

    I think the problem is the number of people that are inciting the sick people from their positions in the media to fear and hate should take a lot of the responsibility for the problem and they should be added to the regulation process.

    Its harder to hit a moving target.

    by KatGirl on Sun Dec 30, 2012 at 06:45:46 PM PST

  •  If cops can be shot while they are at work (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    AllisonInSeattle, drmah

    and are trained professionals and military personal can get shot while they are wandering around on bases here at home (as opposed to on tour or in other actually dangerous places) why the hell do people think teachers carrying guns can make schools safer - especially with only a weeks training...

    Stop trying to look like you are tough on crime and fix the actual problems!

  •  Why not bullet proof vests instead? (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    AllisonInSeattle

    Here's a counter idea to anyone who pushes for guns in schools.  
    Why not require kids and teachers to wear bulletproof vests and helmets on campus at all times, or at least carry them in a backpack.
    That way they have some protection from bullets at all times, without needing to aim or practice. There's no chance of accidental death or mistaken identity.
    And when they say it's a ridiculous idea tell them they don't care about our kids enough to see them safe.

  •  Crazy crazy. Time to call the legislator, not that (0+ / 0-)

    there's any doubt where she stands on this.

    This health care system is a moral atrocity. Dr. Ralphdog

    by AllisonInSeattle on Sun Dec 30, 2012 at 10:31:15 PM PST

  •  This will go nowhere (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    lapin, Chas 981

    the state House in WA is democratic and the new governor would never sign it.  This is insane, but still fantasy in WA.

    We should not be fighting about equal pay for equal work and access to birth control in 2012. Elizabeth Warren

    by Leftleaner on Sun Dec 30, 2012 at 11:22:59 PM PST

  •  SAMs too. (0+ / 0-)

    Be it resolved that every school shall be equipped with at least one shoulder fired Stinger Surface to Air Missile in case of an air attack.

    Be it further resolved that each school shall be equipped with at least one Javelin man portable anti-tank weapon with sufficient ammunition to repel at least 10 commie tanks.

    Be it further, further resolved that no later than the second day of the school year, each child, grades k-6, shall be issued  one .25 semi-automatic pistol and 500 rounds of ammunition, grades 6-12 shall be issued 9-mm Glock 17 semiautomatic pistols and 1000 rounds of parabellum ammunition each.

    Be it resolved that the Republicans in the WA State Legislature are Bat Shit Crazy which should surprise no-one.  

    A bad idea isn't responsible for those who believe it. ---Stephen Cannell

    by YellerDog on Mon Dec 31, 2012 at 02:13:31 AM PST

  •  I'm sure the good folks of Centralia would just (0+ / 0-)

    love that. I believe that's the town with a 2-sided billboard next to the expressway...the one that one day said, "Where's the birth certificate?" Of all the times to be without pyrokinesis...

  •  TAGS. teachers against guns in schools (0+ / 0-)

    Thank you for this excellent post. Please take a look at our petition. We hope that you will sign and pass on to others.

    http://signon.org/... .

    Let's resolve to promote sanity in 2013.

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