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I understand the discouraged and disappointed people here who went from the high of our election battle to too many low and petty post election discussions.  When someone says they need to leave, or need a break, then I trust they know themselves well enough to say so.

But truth be told, there is also an element of anger in these good-bye for nows.  A need to make a statement, and that's OK too. For many, this site was a political home place, and folks want to say why they're no longer at home here.  I get that.  And I think it serves the site well to hear why we're losing the voices we are.

All that said, for myself, I'm staying. I'm a pragmatist by and large, who rejects much of the all or nothing discussion here. I've spent my career learning to compromise, and if I hadn't, I wouldn't still be successfully self employed after 30 years, including through a couple of recessions, not the least, the grand daddy of them all, the most recent one

Still, if I'm weary, and life has been like sand paper on my soul, I know how to take care of me. I know how to avoid the diaries that will piss me off. I know how to dip in and dip out---no where is it easier than on the internet, where with one click, you've escaped!  Try that at a bad dinner party or family get together.

I was not surprised by the resurgence of angry liberals here after the election.  I see it as a sort of huge release of swallowed fear and voice that had muffled itself in efforts to not wake up with Mitt Romney as president.  

Whatever you want to say now, this site DID COME TOGETHER to re-elect Obama, and as many members of the house and senate as we could.  We were a whirling dervish of fund raising, canvassing and phone calling. We shared and educated each other about the polls, which ones made sense, which didn't. I don't know what I'd have done without y'all in this last election year.

So as ying is to yang, now there is a counter swing---the freedom of some to say the things they felt they could not when the stakes were so high. To be expected, imo, particularly when we go without a sustained deep breath from the election to the "fiscal cliff."

I want to make it VERY CLEAR, that I do not want a repeat of 2010 and the lead up to it here. For those who want to tell me, again, that it was not progressives who lost us that election, I believe you. I believe that those here full of anger with the president, plugged their noses and voted in 2010. But spirit is an ephemeral thing. You can't clock it, or poll it, or say it how it works towards outcomes. And it does not thrive with a plugged nose.

The Democratic party lost its spirit in 2010, and I think that's inarguable and MUCH bigger than this site.  Why that happened, I don't care to argue about. I only know I don't want it to happen again.  

So. IF, as the weeks and month pass by, I see this site headed in a downward spiral of negativity that beats down the spirit as we approach 2014,  I too will leave. Knowing myself, there will be no diary about it, I'll just fade away, on to greener pastures. And then maybe I'll fade back in some day. Either way, whether I go or stay is not the point.

For now, I'm staying. Which is not to say I won't be other places too, I will be, and I have been. But this is still my political home. And I hope there are others like me who are going to hang in there with me.  This site needs every one of you who is willing to fight for some perspective and balance.

After all, there ARE fights within our party that must be addressed. Are they always addressed here in substantive way? No, sir. Lately not even most of the time. Pre-election, almost all the time.  Sometimes the passing show needs time to shake out,
to acquire its balance. And patience is necessary.

Finally I want to say this.  To bjm and Mets, and any one else who needs to break free and breath some fresh air, I say, you go! Explore, experience, learn.  I deeply respect your voices, and will miss them here, and keep my fingers crossed that it's temporary, and that you will return. Hopefully soon. We need you.

For the rest of us who are staying, how can we do this better?  Sux or rox, or in-between, how can we challenge ourselves to language that encourages, rather than discourages conversation?

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Comment Preferences

  •  I've been avoiding the controversial diaries (15+ / 0-)

    Sticking with the photo & community diaries.  DK has an eb & flow to "pie" wars.  They seem to come after a Dem victory for some reason.  

    It is a terrible thing to see and have no vision. ~ Helen Keller

    by Pam from Calif on Sun Jan 06, 2013 at 05:23:29 PM PST

    •  Yep, ain't that the truth. (5+ / 0-)

      As I said, I think it's a primal release from those who feel they must button up during elections.  Maybe a time seen as free to release anger and disappointment.

      "A typical vice of American politics is the avoidance of saying anything real on real issues." Theodore Roosevelt.

      by StellaRay on Sun Jan 06, 2013 at 05:28:17 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  I can't remember the names of people I meet in (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      StellaRay, SadieSue

      meat space; names here mean next to nothing to me.  I judge what I'm going to read based on the diary or comment title.  I guess I'm always deciding how much controversy I'll willing to abide.

      -7.38, -5.38 (that's a surprise)

      What is the sound of one hand clapping? Just listen!

      There are no luggage racks on hearses.

      by 84thProblem on Sun Jan 06, 2013 at 08:05:14 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  It is a great talent (5+ / 0-)

        to know one's limits from day to day. Some days this place stimulates me with great interchanges in the comments, and others days I know within 5 minutes that I need to sign out.
        I like knowing I'm behind the wheel on that.  It's my decision. Doesn't matter how or what others are saying on that day. Only matters when I feel I can add in and be happy doing so, and when I can't.

        "A typical vice of American politics is the avoidance of saying anything real on real issues." Theodore Roosevelt.

        by StellaRay on Sun Jan 06, 2013 at 08:56:43 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  I usually decide after the first few lines if I'm (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          StellaRay, SadieSue

          going to continue reading. Sometimes I continue because I wholeheartedly agree with the diarist; sometimes it's because I'm gathering ammunition!

          -7.38, -5.38 (that's a surprise)

          What is the sound of one hand clapping? Just listen!

          There are no luggage racks on hearses.

          by 84thProblem on Sun Jan 06, 2013 at 09:00:43 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  :) And I hope sometimes, (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            rosarugosa, BlueLeftCoast, SadieSue

            it's because someone has written something challenging enough to make you think twice about what you're sure is right.  That doesn't happen all the time, or even often, but when it does, I welcome it.

            "A typical vice of American politics is the avoidance of saying anything real on real issues." Theodore Roosevelt.

            by StellaRay on Sun Jan 06, 2013 at 09:06:13 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  Sometimes, but I flatter myself in thinking that (0+ / 0-)

              I'm just not that into my previously held convictions.  JK! I'm probably just as convinced as everybody else here that what I think right now is the god's honest truth.  But I do think I am unusually open (at least compared to the worl population) to re-evaluating my beliefs in light of new evidence.

              Some of my favorite quotes:

              We are all tattooed in our cradles with the beliefs of our tribe; the record may seem superficial, but it is indelible.  You cannot educate a man wholly out of the superstitious fears which were implanted in his imagination, no matter how utterly his reason may reject them.
              -    Oliver Wendell Holmes, Sr.

              Convictions are more dangerous enemies of truth than lies.
              -    Friedrich Wilhelm Nietzsche, Human, All Too Human, 1878

              Generally the theories we believe we call facts, and the facts we disbelieve we call theories.
              -    Felix Cohen

              Not... what opinions are held, but... how they are held:  instead of being held dogmatically, [liberal] opinions are held tentatively, and with a consciousness that new evidence may at any moment lead to their abandonment.
              -    Bertrand Russell, Unpopular Essays, 1950

              Human beings are perhaps never more frightening than when they are convinced beyond doubt that they are right.
              -    Laurens van der Post

              Man is a credulous animal, and must believe something; in the absence of good grounds for belief, he will be satisfied with bad ones.
              -    Bertrand Russell

              When the facts change, I change my mind.  What do you do sir?
              -    John Maynard Keynes, on being harassed for refuting an economic theory he’d once endorsed.

              -7.38, -5.38 (that's a surprise)

              What is the sound of one hand clapping? Just listen!

              There are no luggage racks on hearses.

              by 84thProblem on Sun Jan 06, 2013 at 09:21:51 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

  •  There might be something more irrelevant (10+ / 0-)

    than these Kos wars, but I haven't found it yet.

    There is no such thing as an off year election. Every election effects each other. We need to work as hard in 2014 as we did in 2012.

    by pollbuster on Sun Jan 06, 2013 at 05:27:52 PM PST

  •  My suggestion...stop looking at user names... (14+ / 0-)

    Maybe by having user names only show when clicked would stop some of the animosity and grudges that follow around here.  I have a bad memory and quickly forget who I'm supposed to not like--find that handicap a real benefit.

    The more you learn the less you know.

    by quiet in NC on Sun Jan 06, 2013 at 05:32:33 PM PST

  •  Yea that one is definitely close n/t (0+ / 0-)

    There is no such thing as an off year election. Every election effects each other. We need to work as hard in 2014 as we did in 2012.

    by pollbuster on Sun Jan 06, 2013 at 05:33:52 PM PST

  •  Without Getting Too Specific, It's Simple Social (7+ / 0-)

    nature that when an institution wants the public to perform en masse, it's the institution's job to motivate the public.

    When the public fails to perform, the blame is on the institution alone. Masses of people don't self-organize, even when there's a regularly scheduled event.

    The troubles here in 2009-10 were reflective of a party that was failing to motivate its voters, especially the factions that are extra important in midterm elections.

    Well we've since seen the party and its leader come out and fight a re-election contest for all they're worth. So that's a hopeful sign they'll not go AWOL to the extent they did in 2010.

    But to some degree the pie fighting now is of the same ilk, since motivation is done by both messaging and policy. And we've got a set of policy decisions coming this year that could cast a dark pall on 2014 if our party doesn't work them with that contest in mind.

    We are called to speak for the weak, for the voiceless, for victims of our nation and for those it calls enemy.... --ML King "Beyond Vietnam"

    by Gooserock on Sun Jan 06, 2013 at 05:45:30 PM PST

    •  I agree with much you say here. (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      rosarugosa, SadieSue

      However, it is important to note that with a few exceptions, Democrats do not have a good track record in the mid terms. In past eras, this has not been as catastrophic as it was for us in 2010---and that's because there was no Tea Party before 2008, no house dominated and ruled by ideologues with little experience in governing.  

      And, if ALEC was alive and well before 2010, I think it's fair to say they achieved their shining moment in 2010, with their cabal of republican governors who have done this country so much harm, imo.  Again, I can not think of a time in the past when a group of governors got together and successfully challenged the landscape of this country in everything from health care to unions, to workers rights, to teachers value, to public vs. private education, to disenfranchisement of the vote, and I could go on and on.

      So yes, 2010 was catastrophic for us. And on top of that, the economy was still barely limping, and Americans are an entitled bunch who think they can vote themselves into a ditch over three decades, and vote themselves out of it in 2 years. IMO, 2010 was as much a knee jerk to the economy as anything.

      We certainly saw a great resurgence of the Democratic party in this last election, and I can't see where that's because of anything Obama did or didn't do, so much as what the republicans didn't and did do.

      I could go on and on.  But thanks for listening Gooserock.  I always enjoy your comments, whether we agree or not. Because you are a thinking person, who hangs in their, despite your doubts.  I like that.

      "A typical vice of American politics is the avoidance of saying anything real on real issues." Theodore Roosevelt.

      by StellaRay on Sun Jan 06, 2013 at 08:04:06 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  Not to mention the lame duck pres dynamic. eom (0+ / 0-)

      -7.38, -5.38 (that's a surprise)

      What is the sound of one hand clapping? Just listen!

      There are no luggage racks on hearses.

      by 84thProblem on Sun Jan 06, 2013 at 08:07:46 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  Well, Sux/Rox ain't gonna get it (12+ / 0-)

    I've said it before and I'll say it again: We can't laugh at/excoriate someone like Richard Mourdock for saying, "Compromise is for someone to come to my way of thinking" and then act horrified when/if Obama says something or does something that is not 100% "progressive".

    I saw someone having kittens recently because Obama "allowed 82% of the Bush Tax Cuts to stand!" Like allowing all the Bush Tax Cuts to expire would usher in some happy shiny Age of Aquarius that would make the Dubya Years magically disappear and completely mitigate the loss of UI and jobless benefits by other citizens. Another diary suggested we could fund UI by taking funds from the Defense budget. Great idea, and I support it... except that's the kind of budgetary thing that has to go through the House, just like tax policy; Obama can't just make that happen with an Executive Order!

    The Big Picture may suck sometimes, folks, but you have to acknowledge it. And part of the Big Picture is that Dubya got all his stuff with a compliant Congress that was run by the GOP. The only way Obama can take all this shit down is with a Dem House, and gerrymandering kept that from happening this time around (and may keep it from happening in 2014). "Going to the people" isn't going to work, because "the people" aren't throwing money at the GOPhers like the Koch brothers, et al are. That means we deal until things change, and they didn't change enough in 2012.

    That doesn't mean I'm throwing up my hands. We need to stay on the ball when it comes to voter registration and voter suppression, and it's sites like this one that expose the virulent shit that happened in OH and PA (and will happen again). We need to stay on the ball when it comes to rhetorical garbage like "the Fiscal Cliff" and "The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun... is a good guy with a gun!" Kos did that, and does that. And we need to stay on the ball on getting better Dems elected in regular and special elections. Kos did that, and does that, and I hope will keep doing that. But "Sux/Rox" is not the way we're going to get that (or anything else) done. We have to find a middle ground, because Utopia is only the name of one of Todd Rundgren's old bands.

    I'm with StellaRay. I'm here right now. I'm here, but I'm not changing. I'm still the guy who thinks Obama did the best he could w/ the Fiscal Speed Bump, but I'm also the guy who wants to cover up the gun-show loophole with an avalanche and make Citizens United a memory. I've been railing at crazy GOPhers before Reagan got in the White House, and I'm not about to stop now. In other words, I am on your side. But I'm also on President Obama's side, and like it or not, that's where we all should be, because there is no alternative until 2016. So let's work for a bigger win in 2014 -- together. I'm up for it. How about you?

    "If you're going to go down with the ship, make it a submarine." - Wayne Shorter

    by Oliver Tiger on Sun Jan 06, 2013 at 05:47:15 PM PST

    •  I took awhile to reply to your post (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      rosarugosa, BlueLeftCoast

      Oliver, because it was so chocked full of things to reply to.  I wanted to choose what resounded most to me.

      And it's this:

      We need to stay on the ball when it comes to voter registration and voter suppression, and it's sites like this one that expose the virulent shit that happened in OH and PA (and will happen again). We need to stay on the ball when it comes to rhetorical garbage like "the Fiscal Cliff" and "The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun... is a good guy with a gun!" Kos did that, and does that. And we need to stay on the ball on getting better Dems elected in regular and special elections. Kos did that, and does that, and I hope will keep doing that.
      IOW, this site is not all about the rec list, or the pie fights or the comments.  It's also about a POV, and a CONSTANT flow of info, day in, day out, with A LOT of linky love to be had.

      I have seen other sites suggested today as a refuge from the rough and tumble here.  I have heard other sites suggested before.  I remember when the HP went through its great purge and many went to this site or that site.

      But what I found is that those sites, good and great as they may be, do not supply the breadth and depth of coverage, hour to hour during the day that this site does.
      They do not generate the amount of discussion that this site does, albeit sometimes in a bad way.  But also, sometimes in a good way.

      All in all, there's lots of places to visit on the internet, new homes to be found. But I still haven't found that place that's better for a progressive than this place, despite its GLARING imperfections.  

      So I pick and choose, and tip toe through the minefields. At least for now.

      "A typical vice of American politics is the avoidance of saying anything real on real issues." Theodore Roosevelt.

      by StellaRay on Sun Jan 06, 2013 at 09:30:26 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  Petty post-election discussions? (5+ / 0-)

    With all due respect, discussions of cutting Social Security and Medicare are not petty.  Student loan abuse and continuing high unemployment are not petty, not to those who are having to deal with those burdens.

    There are still a lot of people suffering in the real world.  Four million people out of work, millions still uninsured.  

    It was good that all Dems worked together to re-elect our leaders and gain more seats in Congress, but when the election is over we have to get back to working on the incredibly important issues facing this country.

    These aren't petty issues, we can't keep sweeping them under the rug.

    Democratic Leaders must be very clear they stand with the working class of our country. Democrats must hold the line in demanding that deficit reduction is done fairly -- not on the backs of the elderly, the sick, children and the poor.

    by Betty Pinson on Sun Jan 06, 2013 at 05:47:43 PM PST

    •  On further reflection (4+ / 0-)

      I wonder if part of the problem stems from some Dems thinking that Obama was re-elected because voters thought Obama had fixed our economic and other problems, when in reality most of them voted for Obama  and Congressional Dems because they thought they were the best choice to fix the problems that we still have.

      I think that's the crux of the matter.  

      Voters agree things have improved since 2008, but we're far from being out of the woods.  There is still a lot of work to do and voters are expecting our leaders to do it.

      Democratic Leaders must be very clear they stand with the working class of our country. Democrats must hold the line in demanding that deficit reduction is done fairly -- not on the backs of the elderly, the sick, children and the poor.

      by Betty Pinson on Sun Jan 06, 2013 at 05:52:51 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  I voted for PBO because it seemed to me (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        gerrilea

        that the Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse were waiting in Mitt's wings.

        -7.38, -5.38 (that's a surprise)

        What is the sound of one hand clapping? Just listen!

        There are no luggage racks on hearses.

        by 84thProblem on Sun Jan 06, 2013 at 08:10:02 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  I didn't vote "for" anything, this time around...I (0+ / 0-)

        did vote against Romney however.

        -7.62; -5.95 The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite insane.~Tesla

        by gerrilea on Sun Jan 06, 2013 at 10:51:02 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

    •  I DID NOT SAY (12+ / 0-)

      the issues were petty, I said many of the comments and discussions here were. Reduced to personal animus, and name calling. It's the quality of the discussion and the process I'm interested in talking about, because if you ask me, most of us here don't disagree all that much about the issues.

      "A typical vice of American politics is the avoidance of saying anything real on real issues." Theodore Roosevelt.

      by StellaRay on Sun Jan 06, 2013 at 05:57:24 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Thanks for the clarification (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        StellaRay, rosarugosa, gerrilea

        I was hoping you didn't feel these important issues were petty.

        I agree, people need to avoid attacking each other and focus on what's really important: protecting SS, Medicare & Medicaid, fixing the economy, good energy policy and dealing with climate change.

        We're Dems, we're used to tackling big problems.

        Democratic Leaders must be very clear they stand with the working class of our country. Democrats must hold the line in demanding that deficit reduction is done fairly -- not on the backs of the elderly, the sick, children and the poor.

        by Betty Pinson on Sun Jan 06, 2013 at 06:41:45 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Exactly. (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          rosarugosa

          And your list of what's important is perfect for me. Now we just have to learn the patience to deal with each other's ideas of how go get there, what's possible when, and how we can avoid the train wreck we see internally today in the GOP---which is imo, a huge splinter, the likes of which will only be possible to really appreciate 10 years or more from now.

          "A typical vice of American politics is the avoidance of saying anything real on real issues." Theodore Roosevelt.

          by StellaRay on Sun Jan 06, 2013 at 07:35:15 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

  •  Rand Paul's son arrested at airport. (5+ / 0-)

    There is no such thing as an off year election. Every election effects each other. We need to work as hard in 2014 as we did in 2012.

    by pollbuster on Sun Jan 06, 2013 at 05:52:29 PM PST

    •  R-E-S-P-E-C-T? (4+ / 0-)
      Sen. Paul is a national public figure and subject to scrutiny in the public arena, however, as many parents with teenagers would understand, his family should be afforded the privacy and respect they deserve in a situation such as this.
      I've seen a lot of appeals for privacy, but I've never seen one that demands the "respect they deserve in a situation such as this."  That may be one of those "be careful what you wish for" thangs.

      "Injustice wears ever the same harsh face wherever it shows itself." - Ralph Ellison

      by KateCrashes on Sun Jan 06, 2013 at 06:20:58 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  I think you should want to know why (2010) (0+ / 0-)

    so that it doesn't get repeated. When you feel like discussing it I'll be happy to join in. Since you're not ready now...we'll save it for another day.

    •  Oh, please. (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      gramofsam1, notrouble, rosarugosa

      You're free to discuss that right here and now, your choice not mine, but I'll go with it, if others want to discuss with you.

      What I find is that rehashing recently past battles tends to bring up all the old fights and re-invigorate the old arguments. It's only with some time, imo, that history teaches us, or should I say, it's only with some time that we're willing to hear what history has to say.

      Until then, I'll stick with what I said. I don't want a repeat of 2010.  I've got my ideas of why it happened, but sure as shootin' if I made that the cause of my diary, everything would once again devolve into rehashing and argument.

      Instead, I'd rather discuss how we discuss, how we view the process, what we can learn from each other, and where we must agree to disagree, but somehow, move on towards our mutual goals.

      "A typical vice of American politics is the avoidance of saying anything real on real issues." Theodore Roosevelt.

      by StellaRay on Sun Jan 06, 2013 at 06:03:17 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  I come here for my news. I gave up on the MSM (6+ / 0-)

    awhile ago. The social stuff...I don't really care about.
    I use this site for information and it is a pretty reliable source for what is going on. The "journalists" that have been elevated to the front page are as good as you are going to find and superior to most.

    Life can be really simple if you let it be.

    " The whole world is about three drinks behind" Humphrey Bogart.

    by flatford39 on Sun Jan 06, 2013 at 05:56:36 PM PST

    •  Yeah, absolutely. (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      rosarugosa, flatford39

      But why is it so damn HARD to find the SIMPLE.  Some days I think I've got it, and the next day I'm all bent out of shape over something I should know darn well isn't worth the flying fur balls.  Oh well.  Live and learn, and hopefully get better at it.

      "A typical vice of American politics is the avoidance of saying anything real on real issues." Theodore Roosevelt.

      by StellaRay on Sun Jan 06, 2013 at 08:08:56 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  Hear! Hear! (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      StellaRay, gerrilea, flatford39

      A couple decades ago I was enthralled by CNN.  I thought their news covearge was second to none.  I am unaware of a news source that suits my needs so well as DK does today!

      -7.38, -5.38 (that's a surprise)

      What is the sound of one hand clapping? Just listen!

      There are no luggage racks on hearses.

      by 84thProblem on Sun Jan 06, 2013 at 08:13:04 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  Good for you. (5+ / 0-)

    I'm happy to see that some proactive, productive, sensible people will remain here.

    I wish you the best of luck with everything.

    Tipped and recced.

    "A candle loses nothing by lighting another candle" - Mohammed Nabbous, R.I.P.

    by Lawrence on Sun Jan 06, 2013 at 06:04:38 PM PST

  •  I've seen suggestions that (0+ / 0-)

    we get rid of recommend/hide and I've seen suggestions that we get rid of user names. So I'm thinking if we also get rid of of comments, and diaries, our problems may be permanently solved.

    There is no such thing as an off year election. Every election effects each other. We need to work as hard in 2014 as we did in 2012.

    by pollbuster on Sun Jan 06, 2013 at 06:05:10 PM PST

    •  Indeed. In that case DK would become as (0+ / 0-)

      irrelevant as the printed page.  There! No DK problem!
      Seriously, I hope you weren't advocating the elimination of comments and HRs.  Immediate feedback is part of an actual community.  When one writes something that helps the group understand an issue a little better we all immediately see the benefit.  Conversely, HRs serve to let the diarist or commenter know at once when they've crossed the line of community standard.  What is the community standard? To some extent it is written in the rules we agree to when we apply for the right to publish here.  To a greater extent it is the immediate sense of umbrage one generates in the community when one steps over a shifting line.
      To me this system is far superior to those that rely soley on a set of mods to decide what I can and cannot read.

      -7.38, -5.38 (that's a surprise)

      What is the sound of one hand clapping? Just listen!

      There are no luggage racks on hearses.

      by 84thProblem on Sun Jan 06, 2013 at 08:33:34 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Let me help you out (0+ / 0-)

        I would never suggest getting rid of snark, and that's the only hint I'm giving.

        There is no such thing as an off year election. Every election effects each other. We need to work as hard in 2014 as we did in 2012.

        by pollbuster on Sun Jan 06, 2013 at 10:40:25 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

  •  "Knowing myself, there will be no diary about it" (0+ / 0-)

    Um...

    •  ummm what? (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      gramofsam1, Little, Yasuragi, rosarugosa

      I said there would be no diary if I leave for awhile, or forever.

      This diary is about why I want to stay, what I hope for this site, maybe a discussion of how to have a better discussion.  Do you have a problem with that?

      "A typical vice of American politics is the avoidance of saying anything real on real issues." Theodore Roosevelt.

      by StellaRay on Sun Jan 06, 2013 at 06:22:17 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  YOu just put it in a diary. (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        StellaRay

        But whatever, Stella. It's been a weird day at DKos - and these diaries are getting on everyone, I think.

        •  I need this to be clear, Little. (5+ / 0-)

          I did NOT just put "it" in a diary.  What I said in my diary is IF I leave, I won't diary about it.  Which is not to demean, dismiss or disagree with those that have.  Simply that it's not my style.

          I fight as long as I think the fight is worthwhile, in politics, on this site, or in relationships.  But when I'm done, I'm done, and that's not when I want to discuss it.

          I'm still in there hoping this site evens itself out, finds the wind under its wings, discovers how to be a more cohesive force, learns to agree to disagree and still be effective.  That's what this diary was about for me.  

          "A typical vice of American politics is the avoidance of saying anything real on real issues." Theodore Roosevelt.

          by StellaRay on Sun Jan 06, 2013 at 07:41:55 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

        •  But the point Little is that (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Yasuragi

          WHENEVER it happens, you won't know it.  It just will happen.

          Good grief, surely you can understand that, yes?

  •  I like this part (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    StellaRay, Yasuragi

    of your diary:

    Still, if I'm weary, and life has been like sand paper on my soul, I know how to take care of me. I know how to avoid the diaries that will piss me off. I know how to dip in and dip out---no where is it easier than on the internet, where with one click, you've escaped!  Try that at a bad dinner party or family get together.
    I think the problem with some people is two-fold: they don't know how to avoid the diaries that will piss them off and in some extreme cases, they want the people pissing them off to be banned from the site.

    Self-described political "centrists" believe the best policy is halfway between right and wrong. — @RBReich via web

    by BentLiberal on Sun Jan 06, 2013 at 06:15:10 PM PST

    •  I think you're right in this way--- (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      BentLiberal, Yasuragi, rosarugosa

      when the degree of disagreement here swells, it is very uncomfortable for some. Some do their best work when they can stay focused on agreement without being side tracked by arguments.  Some do their best work when they are determine to have voice in the fray, and add some reason to it.  To each their own.

      I take it you're sticking around, and I'm glad to hear it.

      "A typical vice of American politics is the avoidance of saying anything real on real issues." Theodore Roosevelt.

      by StellaRay on Sun Jan 06, 2013 at 07:46:07 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  It's all about community (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    oceanview

    If you mostly come here to see your friends, you're staying. If you mostly come here to discuss politics, you're not. Of course, if you come here to see your friends and you're a member of RKBA, all bets are off, and you take a swipe at the diaries you've been hanging out in when you leave.

    Eventually all the TTFNs read the same: LOOK AT ME. I hope it gets to be time for Top Comments soon, because the temptation to write something meta called "LEMMINGS " is getting too strong to resist.

    -7.75, -8.10; Is it true? Is it kind? Is it necessary? . . . and respect the dignity of every human being.

    by Dave in Northridge on Sun Jan 06, 2013 at 06:41:35 PM PST

    •  Dave--- (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      rosarugosa, mindara

      you made a comment in a TTFN diary that really touched me. You spoke of how people here reached out to you when you lost your partner.  I remember the diary you wrote when you you're partner died, and it just squeezed the ever lovin' out of my heart.

      Both because of the loss you were suffering, and because of this community's wave of love, concern and condolence. That's the Daily Kos at its best.

      And of course, it's easier to agree on embracing a Kossack in his/her grief, then it is on our various political agendas.  Still, you won't find that part of a community too many other places on the internet, at least not on sites as large as this one. In fact, I know of no other place where that sort of thing occurs regularly, like it does here.

      Interesting question:  Anyone see the kind of community on say, Red State, TDB, FDL, HP, etc that we see here when someone loses a human or pet they love?  When a service person dies?  If so, I'd like to know the name of that site.

      Still, I don't come here to see my friends, although I have some here, and I enjoy them.  I come here to see the news of the day, get the best and most GREAT links, enjoy the best of this community, and yes to discuss politics.

      I hope you and many others who provide this community with thoughtful comments hang on, and stick around. IMO, there's much still here of value.

      "A typical vice of American politics is the avoidance of saying anything real on real issues." Theodore Roosevelt.

      by StellaRay on Sun Jan 06, 2013 at 08:31:10 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  ???? "you're a member of RKBA all bets are off" (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      ancblu

      I'm one of those members, so as a transgendered woman are you saying I can't participate in other areas here as well?

      Great way to "open discussion".  As long as it's on your terms, right?

      I have very good friends in that group and we share one commonality, the protection of the entire Bill Of Rights.

      It nothing more or less for many of us. The expansion and protection of our civil liberties.  Understanding that the Constitution IS the most progressive document ever written by man.

      I guess we need to define "community" and "progressive" because that's why I come here. Being part of a progressive community.  

      Oh and the great Pooty pictures.

      ;)

      -7.62; -5.95 The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite insane.~Tesla

      by gerrilea on Sun Jan 06, 2013 at 11:02:14 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  Dang. What to do with this sanity among us? (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    jan4insight, StellaRay, rosarugosa
    •  :) wow, I think that's a very nice compliment. (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      rosarugosa, akmk

      And I thank you.

      There are many very sane people here, but also a lot of very passionate people. Been in a creative field all my life, so I know from passionate types.  And I learned a long time ago, you can't cherry pick what you like and you don't like about passion.

      It's a force, one that propels us like no other, but also one that can propel us in the wrong direction, if we don't apply some discipline with the passion.  It's a tricky balance.  

      But the passionate ones don't scare me. It's all those Americans out there who don't care enough to keep up that scare me.

      IMO, that's what's got us in the pickle we're in.  That and a media that ought to be spanked for their performance ever since Bush wowed them all with his shock and awe in Iraq.

      "A typical vice of American politics is the avoidance of saying anything real on real issues." Theodore Roosevelt.

      by StellaRay on Sun Jan 06, 2013 at 08:38:10 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  I totally agree. (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Yasuragi, StellaRay, rosarugosa

    How we can do it better?  I dunno about the site, but I can only self reflect.

    I stay out of diaries where I know I would be arguing against the tide.  So.not.worth.it.  

    I refuse to back down in diaries where I agree with the diarists and I refuse to be bullied.  Having said that ---

    I am trying to totally ignore the individuals who are clear cut troublemakers on this board.

    I look for areas where I can agree with those I tend to disagree with and I will say what those points are.

    When I disagree, I say I disagree.  I may or may not say why.  I try to stay away from inflammatory words and sweeping generalizations.

    Some folk who I disagree with can be reasonable.  I will converse with them.  Others are totally unreasonable.  I don't bother with them.

    •  You speak my language, (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      rosarugosa

      and I so get what you're saying.  And, having read many, many of your comments here, I find your summary of how you conduct yourself here spot on.  

      I think you bring up a very good point about the trouble makers here. Some just must be in every diary and every where trying to stir it up without a thoughtful way to make the conversation worth it.  Which is NOT a comment about those who speak passionately and with a civil tone, no matter which side of the issues they're on.

      I have actually learned A LOT here from people I often disagree with. The ones who speak with passion, facts, and civility challenge my own beliefs, drop links that make me question my beliefs, and in general, help me to not get stuck in the muck of my own assertions.  

      Still and always, it takes some picking and choosing here to find the right place for me here, on each and every day.  

      In any case, smoothnmellow, glad to see you hanging in there with me and many others who are still hoping for better from this site.  It's always a work in progress, with all the inherent backward and forward steps.  

      "A typical vice of American politics is the avoidance of saying anything real on real issues." Theodore Roosevelt.

      by StellaRay on Sun Jan 06, 2013 at 08:51:31 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  What we really need is an "ignore" button. (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    StellaRay

    There are a very few and otherwise irrelevant people who like to come into diaries to drop an incendiary to see what happens.  If we could learn to ignore them we wouldn't get so often distracted. And they wouldn't feel empowered by getting a response.

    But other than that I would like to begin to focus more on answers and suggestions. If chained CPI is a possible suggestion for getting Republicans to agree to extend the debt ceiling, then let's talk about what we support instead.  And why. What would we do to get the debt ceiling extended. Or if we aren't willing to agree to any compromise then why is that OK?  Or if we are talking about the use of drones let also talk about the threat of terrorism. Is it real?  How do we fight against an enemy that doesn't fight traditional war or crosses geographic boundaries. I don't mean to imply that I take any position above.  These are just my inartful examples of how I think we should be talking about these issues instead of "The President is trying to do away with SS because he's a secret corporatist" and "You are just complaining because you didn't get your pony". We really aren't doing much to advance our cause when we keep getting stuck in these same old arguments.

    "Speak the TRUTH, even if your voice shakes."

    by stellaluna on Sun Jan 06, 2013 at 09:27:38 PM PST

    •  Amen. (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      stellaluna

      You ask some great questions.  One that particularly interests me is regarding drone attacks. Like you, hardly want to support such a thing, as in don't we just love 'em! but do wonder how we fight an enemy who plays by no rules. Is is better to send our soldiers to do it, and let them die as well as those we are targeting?  I really just don't know.

      I wish people would ask more questions here. Like you just did. And I wish more people here would say more often, wow, this is kind of confusing when you look at the complexities involved. That sort of humility facilitates conversation imo, makes people less likely to stick to their polar positions, and fess up with the uncertainties, which in turn frees more people to feel free to chime in.

      In any case, Stellaluna, I'm glad to know you aren't writing a TTFN.  Glad you're hanging in there with me and others, at least for now.  I think it's going to get better, it's just the way the pendulum swings sometimes.  

      "A typical vice of American politics is the avoidance of saying anything real on real issues." Theodore Roosevelt.

      by StellaRay on Sun Jan 06, 2013 at 09:48:44 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Work is going to keep me away for the next (0+ / 0-)

        bit anyway to any significant amount. I don't like the tone and really hate the gratutitous meanness I've been seeing here--especially the last few days.  I've followed politics long enough to know that in the long haul those people aren't going to change much, if anything. And I've seen people like that do a fair amount of damage. But they aren't going to do any of that by blogging on dailykos so I can afford to sit back and wait until their star isn't quite so ascendant.  Despite the sated goal of the site I think it's influence is limited so not much damage will be done if people here don't support the President or Democrats in general. Much of their outrage has been caused by the infamous dismissal of "the professional left" by the Administration so it isn't something new or unexpected.

        "Speak the TRUTH, even if your voice shakes."

        by stellaluna on Sun Jan 06, 2013 at 11:08:42 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

  •  please stay (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    StellaRay

    I've just divorced myself from the HuffPo with its mass-media obsessions, to focus here where people are knowledgeable and caring.  We all need one another.  The world will get better if we only try.  There is way too much intelligence in America to let ourselves be ruled and threatened by deliberate un-intelligence.  

    •  Welcome richard! (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      richardvjohnson

      And congratulations on your divorce from the HuffPo.  I started my political blogging journey there back before the 2008 election, and it was a better place to be then. But even then it did not offer the community, nor the format for discussion that this site does.  

      And now, well now, I call it the FluffPo. And their comments section has gone to hell in a hand basket.  A bunch of one time comments, length discouraged, censored with a willy nilly vengeance, no discussion possible.

      I hope you know to check your comments for responses, and I hope you see mine. Coming from the HP, you'll like it here, once you get the hang of it.  Which takes awhile.

      There's all kinds of Dkos language and rules and stuff, some of it damn silly, but it's a good trade off for the unbelievable freedom you'll feel coming from the HP.

      Hope I see you here often.  

      "A typical vice of American politics is the avoidance of saying anything real on real issues." Theodore Roosevelt.

      by StellaRay on Sun Jan 06, 2013 at 10:02:00 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  To answer your question: Allow honesty and (0+ / 0-)

    self-reflection.  Critical analysis of the facts.

    Legitimate conversation has been almost non-existent.  Hold our elected officials accountable, if we don't push them they'll keep doing whatever they damn well please and then tell us it was "the best that could be expected in today's world."

    When the VP told us to stop whining, he, in one speech destroyed any remaining legitimacy this administration had to lead us into a better tomorrow.

    -7.62; -5.95 The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite insane.~Tesla

    by gerrilea on Sun Jan 06, 2013 at 10:46:08 PM PST

  •  the states exacerbates. difficult/predicament (0+ / 0-)

    clime parches on. terms: ocean rise, weather re-patterning, storm pathology, drout-famine, acceptance of nature.

    by renzo capetti on Sun Jan 06, 2013 at 11:23:14 PM PST

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