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I’m from another country, one that doesn’t allow people to carry guns, unless there’s a very, very good reason. Reading, seeing the gun-violence in the USA at record levels and, at last, a serious discussion about it, I still have some doubts about the limits of the Second Amendment:

-    Does it mean that I can go to a shoppingmall, whilst carrying my LAW-rocket strapped around my shoulder, or perhaps should I leave it in my car?  Having the baby sit atop of my spare magazines? If not, why ? (See my next question)

-    What’s the (legal) difference between an RPG and a handgun? They’re both weapons, but somehow the law ‘interferes’ with the Second Amendment to prohibit me carrying an RPG (at least I think it does) and at the same time allowing a handgun. So, there’s some justification why one weapon is worse than the other and why it should be banned from the general public. Why isn’t this ‘distinction’ used to ban assault-weapons etc.?

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Comment Preferences

  •  Tip Jar (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Glen The Plumber, absdoggy

    'We're all flying backwards into the Future'

    by Upie on Thu Jan 10, 2013 at 10:46:52 AM PST

  •  In the United States... (4+ / 0-)

    Any bill that gets enough votes by Congress and is signed by the President becomes a law.

    However, that law when applied to specific cases can be challenged and the Court system may rule it as unconstitutional.

    So the answer to the question is, no one knows in advance which laws those 9 justices (for cases that reach the Supreme Court) will vote as unconstitutional (although prior rulings and individual readings of the Constitution create informed opinions).

    We were not ahead of our time, we led the way to our time.

    by i understand on Thu Jan 10, 2013 at 11:01:19 AM PST

  •  I'll try. (9+ / 0-)
    Does it mean that I can go to a shoppingmall, whilst carrying my LAW-rocket strapped around my shoulder, or perhaps should I leave it in my car?  Having the baby sit atop of my spare magazines? If not, why ? (See my next question)
    Private establishments, like shopping malls, are free to restrict what others can bring onto their property.

    As to the baby issue, laws regarding child endangerment may apply.
     

    What’s the (legal) difference between an RPG and a handgun? They’re both weapons, but somehow the law ‘interferes’ with the Second Amendment to prohibit me carrying an RPG (at least I think it does) and at the same time allowing a handgun. So, there’s some justification why one weapon is worse than the other and why it should be banned from the general public. Why isn’t this ‘distinction’ used to ban assault-weapons etc.?
    According to the Supreme Court, the Second Amendment is understood to include those weapons required for self-defense in the home, equivalent to what 18th-century militias might carry.
  •  Some Americans ... (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Glen The Plumber, Upie

    http://www.dailykos.com/...

    We can not have automatic weapons, silencers, grenades, and all the other weapons our founders wanted us to have.

    "Drop the name-calling." Meteor Blades 2/4/11

    by indycam on Thu Jan 10, 2013 at 11:11:09 AM PST

  •  well, just in case you are serious, a RPG (6+ / 0-)

    or LAW is legal as long as you have gone through the extremely intensive scrutiny required for NFA weaponry in the Destructive Device category and you can find a legal transferrable one to purchase... Not many of those out there.

    Rifles or long guns account for less than 3% of all firearms related violence and of that 3% some portion is with so called assault weapons more correctly called Modern Sporting Rifles.  Actual Assault Rifles (select fire medium size/power round) are also NFA weapons and as such are very heavily controlled.

    In very few areas is it legal to carry a rifle of any type let alone an MSR so where concealed or open carry is allowed by law people carry handguns.

    As all long guns are used in such a tiny fraction of violent crime, banning an entire category of rifles just because they are scary looking to some makes no sense and would have a negligible effect on actual firearms crime rates.

    More people are beaten to death with fists in the U.S. than are killed by long guns of any type.  And we have lower violent crime rates than many countries with much stricter gun laws.  

    Google Don Alejandro Garza Tamez to see what a single armed person can do when needed.  Had he been legally able to have the equivalent firepower of the Zetas, or even close like an MSR instead of being restricted to slow firing bolt action and single shot weaponry, he might have lived in addition to driving the scum off.... If the Mexican people had the equivalent of the 2nd Amendment they would not be in the position they are against the cartel violence .....

    Plata o Plomo is not as threatening when you have some plomo yourself.......

    Vaya con Dios Don Alejo
    I want to die a slave to principles. Not to men.
    Emiliano Zapata

    by buddabelly on Thu Jan 10, 2013 at 11:21:48 AM PST

    •  You may want to call them "Modern Sporting Rifles" (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Upie, Glen The Plumber, profewalt

      But they are assault rifles designed to kill many people as quickly as possible.

      We were not ahead of our time, we led the way to our time.

      by i understand on Thu Jan 10, 2013 at 11:28:20 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  Your response shows that there's (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Glen The Plumber

      a difference in perspective on what guns mean or give to different societies. I agree that sometimes 'peace comes through superior firepower', but I have to disagree on your definition of peace.

      'We're all flying backwards into the Future'

      by Upie on Thu Jan 10, 2013 at 11:36:27 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  "Why, Upie" I cried, "I'll get you if it's the (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Upie

        last thing I do." and shook my fist at the clouds.

        Slow thinkers - keep right

        by Dave the Wave on Thu Jan 10, 2013 at 11:42:09 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  So Upie was standing on the beach, (0+ / 0-)

          Dave was hiding in the dunes, more than a mile away. Hiding in the bush with his .50 sniper rifle, aiming, holding his breath, trying to control his monster-gun.

          'We're all flying backwards into the Future'

          by Upie on Thu Jan 10, 2013 at 11:56:23 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

      •  I live basically on the border and I know a lot of (4+ / 0-)

        people in Mexico who fervently wish they had the right we do to self protection....

        A hunting rifle or a .22 is just not equal to a few sicarios with full auto and those RPGs you mentioned.

        Some Zetas forted up in the hills around Saric after the Tubatama massacre and Chapo Guzmans sicarios have been hunting them down for the last 2 years....Last report from the area is they are done with one guy still hiding out.....this is about 50 miles south of mi casa....

        In the meantime, the average Mexicano is still completely at the mercy of whatever group decides to take over their town and force the locals to do their wishs....

        Plata o Plomo is their reality due to their government forbidding them the weapons that would allow effective defense....

        I do not nesc want superior firepower, equivalent is close enough for me.... And for those I know who are stuck in the hell that many areas of Northern Mexico have become.

        Vaya con Dios Don Alejo
        I want to die a slave to principles. Not to men.
        Emiliano Zapata

        by buddabelly on Thu Jan 10, 2013 at 12:24:09 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  The Zetas are a paramilitary group, not just a (0+ / 0-)

          bunch of cowboys running drugs.  I don't doubt that people want to be protected, but this is the same argument that I use against people who think they're going to overthrow the US Govt and the might of the US military with an AR-15.  Unless you intend to arm them with RPG's, they're going to be F'ed against a superior trained cartel fighter.

          We both seem to speak from experience of the region, but my friends seem to have the exact opposite perspective as yours.

          peace to you.

          "Kindly go render the fat in your head in a large kettle of boiling water. Thank you." - Bumblebums -7.38, -6.46

          by balancedscales on Thu Jan 10, 2013 at 02:15:49 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  you don't need equivalence (5+ / 0-)

            you need deterrence.  They don't have to believe you will defeat them, but they do have to believe you will cause more casualties than they are willing to sacrifice.

            "The Taibbi article is a defense of status quo" -- citizen k

            by happymisanthropy on Thu Jan 10, 2013 at 02:41:37 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  Or, they'll cut the heads off of whole families, (0+ / 0-)

              as well as the local police (who own many guns), and they'll roll them down the hallway of the local city hall.  I laugh at the ide of an armed mexican citizenry standing up to the brutality of the cartels.  I've seen it first hand, watched as soldados chased narcos past us on the streets of Juarez.  My best friend's father and brother in law were both kidnapped and held for ransom.  What Mexicans need isn't an armory of guns in every house.  They need for us to help them stop the drug war by legalizing, taxing, and regulating marijuana in this country, and for us to stop trafficking weapons to their country.  Until that happens, the corrupt political culture coupled with the ungodly amounts of money that is being made by the cartels and distributed to the local police and many of the soldados, will continue to create violence.  It's just not as simple as arming mexican citizens, sorry.

              "Kindly go render the fat in your head in a large kettle of boiling water. Thank you." - Bumblebums -7.38, -6.46

              by balancedscales on Thu Jan 10, 2013 at 11:34:00 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

          •  actually the original Zetas were Mexican Special (5+ / 0-)

            Forces who took the plata and started out as enforcers for the Gulf cartel. There are only a couple of the original members still alive, the few left and the new recruits are not of the same caliber.....

            There are however extremely brutal and violent and it shows in their areas of control, one big reason the locals helped Chapo take them out here as he has always left the people alone as long as they didnt interfere with his smuggling routes....unlike the Zetas or La Familia who augment the drug income with kidnappings and such...

            If Don Alejo can accomplish what he did with the extremely limited equipment he had, a generally armed populace like we have here would stand a chance against any of the Cartels..... If nothing else it would give them some chance where now they have none...even the Federales wont go into the hills and the military always seems to show up just a little too late.... But with the fear of Subcomandante Marcos (who was in Sonora just a couple years back) always in their minds, the Government will never allow civilian weaponry worth a spit.

            This is a touch CTish but it wouldnt surprise me at all to find out in a few years that Lazcano was not killed after all and his body being stolen was just an easy way to cover it up....meantime, someone took home a lot of Silver...... and EL  Chapo and the Sinaloenses come out on top as usual

            Santa Muerte wins again.....

            Vaya con Dios Don Alejo
            I want to die a slave to principles. Not to men.
            Emiliano Zapata

            by buddabelly on Thu Jan 10, 2013 at 06:42:55 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  where do you live, if you don't mind (0+ / 0-)

              my asking...

              "Kindly go render the fat in your head in a large kettle of boiling water. Thank you." - Bumblebums -7.38, -6.46

              by balancedscales on Thu Jan 10, 2013 at 11:35:33 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  no problem (3+ / 0-)

                I live in the Altar Valley in Arizona...in the shadow of the Kitt Peak National Observatories.......

                Love it but I came here for heat and it is going to be in the 40s for the next week and low 20s at night...I have to spend tomorrow covering plants and taking cuttings of my more tropical cactus ....that way if they get too damaged I can at least replant in a couple weeks....

                Vaya con Dios Don Alejo
                I want to die a slave to principles. Not to men.
                Emiliano Zapata

                by buddabelly on Fri Jan 11, 2013 at 12:11:01 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  I love the desert heat... (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  buddabelly

                  boy was I shocked the first time it started dumping snow in El Paso though. I've never been to that part of Arizona, but have heard about Kitt Peak.  Good luck with your plants.

                  "Kindly go render the fat in your head in a large kettle of boiling water. Thank you." - Bumblebums -7.38, -6.46

                  by balancedscales on Fri Jan 11, 2013 at 08:38:38 AM PST

                  [ Parent ]

        •  You have a problem with the Zetas (0+ / 0-)

          Call out the National Guard, or ICE or the Army

          You, Buddabelly are not responsible for the territorial integrity of the United States, and if you think you are you are having delusions.

    •  I suggest you come down to Juarez with me and (0+ / 0-)

      talk to my friends about how they should use their own plomo to fight the cartels.  

      This is a ridiculous and ignorant statement.  How many citizens do you think are going to be willing to fill cenotes with headless bodies?  The level of violence the cartel unleashes against other Mexicans far outweighs anything a citizen with a handgun is going to do to them.

      Foolish and ignorant statement, and insulting and disrespectful.

      "Kindly go render the fat in your head in a large kettle of boiling water. Thank you." - Bumblebums -7.38, -6.46

      by balancedscales on Thu Jan 10, 2013 at 02:11:18 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  alternatives? (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        PavePusher, Tom Seaview

        fight, or surrender?

        "The Taibbi article is a defense of status quo" -- citizen k

        by happymisanthropy on Thu Jan 10, 2013 at 02:44:10 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  Not Juarez, but applicable here (0+ / 0-)

        My wife is from Tver' Russia, the last major city taken by the Nazis on the push to Moscow... and the first one they were forced out of, two months later.
        Her grandfather was there, with her grandmother and her uncles (toddlers). He took to the forests outside the town with the other men -- and the single women, widows, and kids tall enough to fight. It was winter... Russian winter. The only Russian officer present was General January.

        In those two months before the Red Army came back through, these ragtag partisans killed 30,000 Nazis, using old bolt-action rifles left over from the Revolution. And knives. And improvised explosives. And weapons liberated from dead Fascists. The level of violence thsee ordinary Russians unleashed against those German invaders far outweighed anything the Werhacht did to them.

        Methinks yours was the "Foolish and ignorant statement, and insulting and disrespectful."

        Things are more like they are now than they've ever been before...

        by Tom Seaview on Fri Jan 11, 2013 at 04:33:24 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

    •  Delusional eom (0+ / 0-)

      America—We built that!

      by Mokurai on Thu Jan 10, 2013 at 03:28:45 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  I'll throw the q' to the collective rights folks (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Upie, buddabelly, PavePusher

    if my state wants to arm some of its militia regiments with tanks, fighter jets, and armed drones, is this protected by the Collectivist Second Amendment?

    How about nukes and chemical weapons?

    "The Taibbi article is a defense of status quo" -- citizen k

    by happymisanthropy on Thu Jan 10, 2013 at 11:28:53 AM PST

    •  Well, that's the question. (0+ / 0-)

      'We're all flying backwards into the Future'

      by Upie on Thu Jan 10, 2013 at 12:03:34 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  The Feds regulate all state militias, per (0+ / 0-)

      the Constitution. The Second Amendment only says, historically, that Congress cannot disarm a state militia. However, in practice the law is usually what SCOTUS says it is, apart from civil disobedience and prosecutors looking the other way, so now we have an absolute right to handguns in the home, and some rights to some weapons in other places. SCOTUS says that some restrictions are Constitutional, but is intentionally vague about which. The prior Assault Weapons Ban was kosher.

      DoD has not granted nukes to any state, and is not going to. Tanks and fighter jets, absolutely. That was W's gig in the TX Air National Guard. Even police departments are getting surveillance drones, but I don't think states are going to get armed drones. Chemical weapons above the level of mace or tear gas are illegal under various international conventions on the Laws of War.

      Is any such radical expansion of state militia power protected by the Second Amendment? No. Only guns. The rest is law and policy.

      America—We built that!

      by Mokurai on Thu Jan 10, 2013 at 03:41:38 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  my state is not a signatory (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        PavePusher

        of the chemical weapons convention, and a treaty cannot make laws that would otherwise be unconstitutional.

        Nuclear weapons are covered under the atomic energy act.  If my state were to seize plutonium from terrorists, can my state say it has rights under the second amendment to keep it for its own use?

        The Second Amendment only says, historically, that Congress cannot disarm a state militia.
        Or any other member of "the people."  Militias have zero rights under the second amendment.  The only entity having second amendment rights is "the people."  
        Tanks and fighter jets, absolutely. That was W's gig in the TX Air National Guard.
        But those are weapons that the federal government wants the state to have.  When the feds decided that they didn't want the Oregon ANG to have helicopters any more, the state had no say in the matter.  Do you think that was a violation of the second amendment?  Would it be different if the state owned the helicopters?
        Is any such radical expansion of state militia power protected by the Second Amendment? No. Only guns. The rest is law and policy.
        ...and your basis for this is...?  A supreme court decision that you don't agree with?

        "The Taibbi article is a defense of status quo" -- citizen k

        by happymisanthropy on Thu Jan 10, 2013 at 04:38:28 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  Huh? (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Tom Seaview
        The Feds regulate all state militias, per the Constitution.
        Cite what part says that, please?
        The Second Amendment only says, historically, that Congress cannot disarm a state militia.
        Ummm, yeah, that one too, please.
  •  Let me also correct you that gun-violence (5+ / 0-)

    in the US is not at record levels. Violence and crime in general have dropped quite a bit in the US.

    But we're still a bunch of violent fucks with levels of gun-violence far above the rest of the civilized world despite our dramatic decrease from the 60's and 70's.

    "Do what you can with what you have where you are." - Teddy Roosevelt

    by Andrew C White on Thu Jan 10, 2013 at 11:41:24 AM PST

    •  I stand corrected, (3+ / 0-)

      but still your country defines 'gun fetish' (with all due respect)

      'We're all flying backwards into the Future'

      by Upie on Thu Jan 10, 2013 at 11:44:28 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  So what (7+ / 0-)

        Guns are incredibly fun to shoot and hunt with.  It also gets me and my sons out of the house to enjoy nature.  I am sure some here would prefer we simply sit in front of the computer all day, but many of us like to hunt, fish, etc.

        I use my Modern day sporting rifle (AR) to hunt coyotes and I enjoy that past time all winter long.  The AR-15 is the perfect choice for that type of hunting which is why so many hunters prefer it.  Using grandpa's old bolt action is terrible in comparision.

        •  I get out of the house (4+ / 0-)

          to enjoy nature, without a gun. It's called hiking, climbing, kayaking, rafting, etc.

          Republicans...think the American standard of living is a fine thing--so long as it doesn't spread to all the people. And they admire the Government of the United States so much that they would like to buy it. Harry S. Truman

          by fenway49 on Thu Jan 10, 2013 at 12:34:11 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Nothing wrong with those activities (4+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Upie, KVoimakas, PavePusher, Tom Seaview

            either.

            Thanks for pointing out that nature can be used for more then simply hunting even though I think most hunters are already aware of that.

            Let me guess, you are also against hunting to.

            •  It is not my favorite thing (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Upie, balancedscales

              but hunting is not the problem here.

              I do think hunters should be willing to accept regulation, in the interest of human lives, that restricts some of what is now considered "regular" hunting weaponry, but was not a couple of decades ago.

              Republicans...think the American standard of living is a fine thing--so long as it doesn't spread to all the people. And they admire the Government of the United States so much that they would like to buy it. Harry S. Truman

              by fenway49 on Thu Jan 10, 2013 at 12:50:31 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  Usually, hunters or soldiers know (0+ / 0-)

                what kind of weapons they need to do what is needed. They also recognize the ones who should or shouldn't carry those lethal weapons. It's not about hunting, but about the ones who think they can hunt whatever they want.

                'We're all flying backwards into the Future'

                by Upie on Thu Jan 10, 2013 at 12:59:30 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

              •  My AR is a very popular (5+ / 0-)

                choice amongst varmit and predator hunters today for a number of reasons.  Forcing us to go back in time to older models simply because other people think our guns look scary is a terrible idea.

                Ar-15's account for less murders per year then Handguns, Shotguns, and even standard long rifles.  Hell, knives account for more murders than AR-15's.

                With that said, demanding I give up my hunting tool simply because there is a political fight going down is something I am not interested in.

                Go after the real problems in our society.

                Why not go after handguns?  They account for most gun violence by a long shot.

                How about pump shotguns?  They account for weel over 4 times the amount of violence AR's account for.

                I think people who want to be gun grabbers need to first learn about guns and hunting before they attempt to decide what is right for the rest of us.

                Hunting rifles, like most other products, continue to improve.  Demanding that hunters cannot improve our hunting gear is folly.

                I demand you never get a better computer because hackers will use the better computing power to hurt society!  Another terrible arguement just like the demand to ban my AR..............

                •  Your argument lacks logic. (0+ / 0-)

                  They're not equivalent.  A new computer isn't going to mow down classrooms full of kids in less than five minutes.  My new iPad 3 isn't able to unleash 30 shots in 30 seconds like James Holmes did in the Colorado shooting.  I don't know where I stand on which guns should/shouldn't be restricted, but I know that your argument isn't a good one.

                  "Kindly go render the fat in your head in a large kettle of boiling water. Thank you." - Bumblebums -7.38, -6.46

                  by balancedscales on Thu Jan 10, 2013 at 02:21:25 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Pretty sure I stated (4+ / 0-)

                    "Another terrible arguement"

                    so um yea.

                    Guns can do terrible things.  Guns are also life savers, hunting tools, and family protection devices.

                    The problem I have with this entire debate is that it starts from a focus on a certain type of Gun that accounts for a very tiny fraction of gun violence.  I think gun grabbers in general think it is an easy target simply because it looks scary and was in the news recently which is just sad to me.

                    If we want to talk about gun violence, everyone needs to start from a point of logic, not emotion.

                    Banning AR-15's is a pointless political excersize that will piss off millions of American and countless hunters for no actual safety gain.  Furthermore, it will most likely cost our party some seats in congress.

                    I personally would never vote for someone who voted yes to banning my guns.

                    •  So, keep the Bushmaster, ban the semi auto pistol (0+ / 0-)

                      Are you cool with that?

                      If not why not?

                      As for pissing off millions of Americans by banning AR15's. do you realise that you are implicitly saying that millions  of Americans are more addicted to their black guns than to the lives of schoolkids and cinema goers. Now that is pretty fucked up view of the world.

                      •  Millions of Americans who own AR-pattern rifles... (2+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        Tom Seaview, KVoimakas

                        haven't endangered shit, commited crimes or done anything vile today.  Nor will they tomorrow or the next day, or the day after that.

                        Feel free to become a Citizen here and vote for the laws you want.  Until then, your opinion, uninformed and bigoted as it is, carries no weight.

                        Note that I'm not telling you you can't have or voice an opinion.  I'm just informing you that it has no value here.

                      •  Millions of Americans (0+ / 0-)

                        are perfectly responsible with their AR's.  I think we all feel that when the gun grabbers demand our guns even though we did nothing wrong, we get pissed off.

                        This also has very little to nothing to do with school kids and cinema goers by the way.  "Black Guns" kill less people in America then Shotgun's by a wide margin.  Bolt action long guns kill more people than "Black guns".

                        Last, I am not "cool" with the gun grabbers going after my pistol either.  Demanding I give up my pistol or my AR or my shotgun or my bolt action rifle is equal to demanding I give up my 2 admendment right.  I have no ears for that.  I have done nothing wrong and am a responsible owner of these firearms.  Leave us alone.

                •  Have you looked at Sen. Feinstein's proposal? (0+ / 0-)

                  She has a summary page with a link to a PDF with some more details.

                  Would you tell us which parts of the bill you agree with, and which you disagree with?

                  We can do the same exercise when Biden submits his proposal.

                  America—We built that!

                  by Mokurai on Thu Jan 10, 2013 at 03:48:13 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Sen Feinstein's bill (0+ / 0-)

                    is a terrible piece of legislation.

                    This is what I sort of agree with:

                    "Bans large-capacity ammunition feeding devices capable of accepting more than 10 rounds."

                    I would compromise with the gun grabbers and meet in the middle at 20 round clips.

                    The rest of the bill is pure garbage.  Demanding we register our weapons with the government is a terrible idea.  NOt allowing me to replace my AR with a new one should mine happen to break is simply evil.  Demanding my shotgun and my pistols as well is simply crazy.

                    Luckily this has exactly ZERO chance of passing.  Any congressmen or women who votes for that garbage would never see a vote from me again.

          •  I am glad for you, however just because your (5+ / 0-)

            way gives you enjoyment, it does not mean that everyone gets the same enjoyment that you or I might...

            I miss more than anything the long walks I used to take in the hills behind my home before I blew out my back one too many times.  

            I do not hunt myself but I do shoot and never was I without my version of a so called assault weapon, a 44 magnum levergun and a sidearm with snakeshot.....  

            It is just common sense since I live in the heaviest smuggling corridor in the Southwest and there are everything from feral dogs to coydogs to Mountain lions and black bear where I choose to hike. Not to mention that the mules are now guarded by armed sicarios and you can run across a train at any time.... Yet even being well armed, I never shot anything alive or bigger than an aluminum can and never would unless actually attacked....not posturing, not bluff charges, actual attack....

            Well, feral dogs need to be put down but they concentrate in the occupied areas as there is way more food ........ cats, other dogs, chickens etc....

            I do shoot coyotes and dogs if they cross the inner fence...I have had way too many of my best hens and roosters eaten to not defend them whenever possible.....  as I will not use leg hold traps and poison is completely out of the question, that leaves firearms..... Came in handy with a probably rabid skunk last year also......

            There is still a lot of wild in the West.....

            I do understand the purpose behind hunting varmints/predators with a MSR though.  Fast follow up shots can save an animal from a slow agonizing death should something happen with the first shot and for feral hog where the object is to remove as many highly destructive invasive critters as possible at one time....an MSR in a heavier round than .223 is perfect for such hunting/pest eradication.....

            Vaya con Dios Don Alejo
            I want to die a slave to principles. Not to men.
            Emiliano Zapata

            by buddabelly on Thu Jan 10, 2013 at 01:04:30 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  Reading about your Wild West World, (0+ / 0-)

              I see and understand the need for a gun. If I were in your place I would have wanted two. But what is a MSR (seriously) ?

              'We're all flying backwards into the Future'

              by Upie on Thu Jan 10, 2013 at 01:11:38 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  Modern Sporting Rifle, semi auto rifles (4+ / 0-)

                that are used for a few different shooting sports as well as hunting and home defense....most common would be rifles like the Ruger Mini 14/30 or any of the AR variants....

                Interestingly enough, a standard AR rifle with standard ammunition is safer in a home invasion type situation than almost any handgun..... due to the projectile design they bleed energy rapidly and tumble or fragment when they hit a wall while most all standard handguns will penetrate multiple walls and still be dangerous........ also the larger magazine capacity allows a scared tired homeowner to protect themselves against multiple assailants without the worry of reloading.....

                and there are a lot more home invasions in this country than there are mass shootings.....here is video of one a few blocks from my Dads home where the homeowner being armed was able to drive them off.

                http://current.com/...

                I love my place and you couldnt drag me out of my little corner of hell, however it is not the city and as such the average day is very different than in the cities of the East coast esp....

                Vaya con Dios Don Alejo
                I want to die a slave to principles. Not to men.
                Emiliano Zapata

                by buddabelly on Thu Jan 10, 2013 at 01:43:27 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  Not sure how you expect to shoulder a rifle in a (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  buddabelly

                  dark hallway and fire at will turning a corner, but I think that a pistol grip shotgun is a lot handier for home defense.  

                  "Kindly go render the fat in your head in a large kettle of boiling water. Thank you." - Bumblebums -7.38, -6.46

                  by balancedscales on Thu Jan 10, 2013 at 02:23:59 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

              •  here are a couple links that might help explain (3+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                rockhound, PavePusher, Tom Seaview

                Vaya con Dios Don Alejo
                I want to die a slave to principles. Not to men.
                Emiliano Zapata

                by buddabelly on Thu Jan 10, 2013 at 01:52:44 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

              •  "Wild West World"? (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                buddabelly, Tom Seaview

                You're watching to many bad fictional movies.

                Even civilization doesn't eliminate the need to defend ones life and family and property.

            •  Google showed me MSR is a 'Modular Sniper Rifle', (0+ / 0-)

              if I see this right it's a high-tech gun to hunt and kill humans over a very long range, with devastating consequences for the intended target. Really useful to defend your family from those 'critters' entering your home ;-(

              'We're all flying backwards into the Future'

              by Upie on Thu Jan 10, 2013 at 01:24:20 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

            •  Why are you not using slugs for hogs? (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              buddabelly

              "Kindly go render the fat in your head in a large kettle of boiling water. Thank you." - Bumblebums -7.38, -6.46

              by balancedscales on Thu Jan 10, 2013 at 02:22:46 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  Lots do, no feral hogs here or I would probably (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                PavePusher, balancedscales

                use a hard cast, gas checked, Keith style, 300 grain projectile in the 44 magnum rifle...

                Slugs are a bit more recoil than my busted back likes except for my hand cast and hand loaded reduced recoil slugs...They shoot very nice for steel but at only about 1200fps they just do not have enough energy for me to trust them in a critter as heavily armored and potentially dangerous as a hog.....They would work for home defense but I prefer reduced recoil buckshot.

                The 44 with that 300g projectile over 100% load density of H-110 is half a ton more energy at the muzzle over the shotgun with slugs and has considerably more penetration and in dangerous game, penetration is king.....

                Vaya con Dios Don Alejo
                I want to die a slave to principles. Not to men.
                Emiliano Zapata

                by buddabelly on Thu Jan 10, 2013 at 03:26:10 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

        •  I got out of the house last weekend, as I do (0+ / 0-)

          every weekend.  I went fly fishing and caught four good sized rainbows, took some incredible photos, watched two juvenile bald eagles steal a fish from a heron, and got an incredible workout wading through the shallows doing it all.  Not a single shot was fired.  It's also funny that I've been on several varmint hunts, and never a single AR-15 was seen or needed.  Using grandpa's old bolt-action makes you a better shot.  Hit it and drop it with one, or lose it.

          "Kindly go render the fat in your head in a large kettle of boiling water. Thank you." - Bumblebums -7.38, -6.46

          by balancedscales on Thu Jan 10, 2013 at 02:18:41 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Nothing wrong with (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            PavePusher, Tom Seaview

            challenging yourself.

            I like to hunt deer with a muzzleloader.  Sure it is harder but it can be fun.

            What is your point though?

            Whether I want to make coyote hunting harder or easier is currently my choice.  Using my AR or using an old bolt action is up to the hunter.

            A bolt action is great for that first shot.  What to do with wounding coyotes running away and what to do with the other coyotes that came with it is another thing.  AR's have the ability to kill a wounded animal quickly and allow a hunter the ability to get more predators per stand.  These are things a bolt action gun completely lacks which is why the modern sporting rifle gains in popularity each and every year.

            Your arguement that using a bolt action makes you a better shot is nonesense.  The second and third coyote are long gone before you would ever have a chance to prove you are a good shot.  AR's at least give the hunter a chance.

          •  The same principles apply to a semi-auto. (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Tom Seaview

            You don't just blaze away at random.

        •  AR15 - good for Coyotes and School kids (0+ / 0-)

          If sparing a few coyotes means sparing a few school kids, for me it's an easy choice.

      •  Yes it does (0+ / 0-)

        no argument there. My point was simply that this is nothing new as far as the violence goes and that in fact we have been much worse at times. Though perhaps the "gun fetish" aspect IS fairly new in its extremity and festishishness.

        "Do what you can with what you have where you are." - Teddy Roosevelt

        by Andrew C White on Thu Jan 10, 2013 at 02:08:09 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

  •  Just takes (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    KVoimakas, PavePusher

    a little reading [PDF], and you'll be up to speed.

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