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This diary is a part in a long series reviewing the book Bend, not Break: A Life in Two Worlds by Ping Fu. Please read part I, part II, part III, part IV, part V, and part VI for background.

The gang rape story is a much hyped key part of Ping Fu's Bend, not Break: A Life in Two Worlds. Although most readers who lived in China during that period would first react to this story with disbelief, it is generally considered a personal experience that someone who was not there cannot possibly disprove. Furthermore, it was such a horrific and gruesome crime, a reader would instinctively want to skip this part in the book, let alone challenging it.

My previous exchange on this website with some of the commenters about the rape episode was not based on her book's description (because I did not have the stomach to read this part), but rather on the reports in the media. It turns out that those reports in the media were not accurate, and painted a very different picture than the actual story told in the book.

It is a difficult decision whether to go into the rape story. On the one hand, it is true that most rape victims are reluctant to come forward. Any barrier to reporting would aggravate the problem. On the other hand, lying about rape is just as bad, if not worse, because it cheapens the suffering of the real victims, and makes it harder to help the real victim. After much deliberation, I decided that truth is more important, and I should not be desuaded by political correctness.

It was hard to bring myself to read the actual account of the crime, and I am not going to analyze those. There are inconsistencies in the parts of the story before and after the crime that would cast serious doubt on what really happened.

During the Cultural Revolution, Ping Fu and her younger sister lived in the dorm of Nanjing University of Aeronautics and Astronautics (NUAA). The dorm building was close enough to the edge of the campus of NUAA, that they could walk to a canal around the old city wall of Nanjing, across the street from the campus. Here is how the episode began (page 75):

One lazy, hot summer afternoon, as I lay resting in our room, I heard the voices of several children screaming outside, "Hong is in the river! Hong is in the river!" One of them called to me, "Ping, your sister is drowning!"
This is where the first doubt arises. The river was outside the campus, across the street. (Here I removed the original discussion of whether this was a set up or not because now I realize that the original argument is not as solid as I first thought). Thanks to a netter familiar with this area of Nanjing, we know now that the river is about one kilometer away from NUAA. It was impossible for Ping Fu to have heard screams from the river if she was inside NUAA. If someone were to run from the river to NUAA dorm to get Ping, a round trip would have taken ten minutes. By then either her sister would be dead, or would have already been saved.

The only logical explanation that neither Hong was dead nor she was saved after the time it took for Ping to get there, would be that this was a trap to lure Ping Fu out. Such an elaborate trap means that the perpetrators knew Ping Fu very well. But the problem is, Ping Fu did not identify a single person in name. She named everyone both before and after this event, but hid the names of all the perpetrators.

After the whole ordeal of severe beating and gang rape, Ping Fu woke up in the health clinic of NUAA (page 77):

The next thing I remember, I woke up in the NUAA health clinic. A kind nurse told me that I had sustained "deep cuts, a broken tailbone, and internal injuries." It had taken more than forty stitches to close the wounds. I carry the scars to this day.
It is highly doubtful that a health clinic in NUAA in 1968 had the X-ray equipment needed to diagnose the broken tailbone (and to make sure that she did not have other serious injuries). It is also highly unlikely that someone who sustained such serious injuries and was unconscious would be treated only at the clinic. She would have been sent to a hospital.

If one believes that she was only treated at the clinic, then one must accept the possibility that she was not seriously hurt. She may have been beaten but not raped.

To assume that people who brought her to the clinic, and those who treated her, did not report the crime, would be quite callous. It would be effectively accusing all these people to be part of the coverup of the crime. I cannot believe that's what happened.

In Nien Cheng's Life and Death in Shanghai, her daughter was raped by a rebel faction leader (造反派头头, these people are generally lumped together with the Red Guards in the west), and he murdered her in order to cover up the crime. In the official report, the daughter was said to have committed suicide. This leader was brought to justice more than ten years later, and received a suspended death sentence for this crime. Nien Cheng was not satisfied with this sentence, and believed that he should have been sentenced to death.

The reason that rapists often murdered their victims during the Cultrual Revolution, was that they knew that the punishment for rape was death penalty. Everyone knew this. That's why that no one reported the rape of Ping, depite so many people knew about it, was so incredible. If this story was true, then it was not an indictment of the Cultural Revolution, but an indictment of every Chinese, those who covered up the crime, and those who still refuse to believe it today.

Here are some pictures of executions of rapists in Cultural Revolution:


Originally posted to xgz on Fri Feb 08, 2013 at 08:32 AM PST.

Also republished by Progressive Friends of the Library Newsletter and Sluts.

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Comment Preferences

  •  This might have more gravity if you had read (4+ / 0-)

    the narrative you are casting doubt upon.

    •  I skip the part of beating and rape (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      hailanzhiguang, Buhui

      But the inconsistencies do not concern the detailed description of the rape itself.

      •  VILE (2+ / 0-)

        You. Lower than vile.

        To pick apart the story of a rape: with no evidence on your part, whatsoever.

        Nothing that makes sense. Nothing.

        Disgusting.

        •  I am a woman too (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          xgz, alain2112, CorinaR

          And I am disgusted by Ping Fu's lies.
          Because lies like she told can only damage woman movement and democracy movement in China. If we allow lies to prevail, what about people who don't lie? what about their life, death, pain, and suffering. Think through it. If you allow lies only because you hate Chinese government, or hate rapists, then it would be also OK to torture terrorists?

          xgz picked many stories before this one. I admire his courage since it is not easy. Your reaction is not unexpected. However, we still have to get the truth out even though it may be hard for some people to accept right away.

        •  The Communist Party of China pays (0+ / 0-)

          8-cents a comment for party line trolls.

          Of course they are not allowed to read a book such as "Bend, Not Break."

          Today the party line goes to denying the crimes of Cultural Revolution. Murders took the lives of 3,000,000 people and that must be denied, together with the organized rapes and thefts of property from the victims. The Red Guards units were dominated by twenty-somethings males, who went feral at the urging of Chairman Mao.

          Mao patterned his life from the Long March on to the pattern of an Attila the Hun and Genghis Khan and his immediate successors. Attila was famous for advising that "if you want to rape, pillage, and burn then be sure to do them in order."

          Mao was famous for advising his troops to "rape the landowner's wife."

          Like the earlier two, he was a barbarian, utterly corrupted by power. His wife, the mother of three children, had been executed by a Nationalist warlord. Acting the savage may well have included a revenge motive.

          By the way, what motive other than money would lead to writing a series of five or six diaries -- about a book that this person has not read ??? Earlier on this "xgz" account was used to deny that rape ever occurred during the Cultural Revolution -- that a rapist would have been executed immediately. 200-proof bxllshxt. They were carrying out Mao's orders for humiliating the educated classes.

          "Have you left no sense of decency, sir, at long last?" Army Attorney to Sen. McCarthy, 1954. "We have done nothing to be ashamed of. We have nothing to apologize for." NRA 12/14/2012.

          by bontemps2012 on Fri Feb 08, 2013 at 03:02:05 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

  •  Wow. What a repugnant diary (9+ / 0-)

    Your whole first point about the children calling about her sister in the river is completely illogical. Does the book say that her sister was actually drowning in the river? If it was a trap to get Ping out of her room, then wouldn't the people who beat and raped her tell the kids what to yell?

    And what ridiculousness - why wouldn't a friend who saw her fall in know that she had a sister and go yell for the sister to come? There were already other kids yelling about Hong being in the river, why wouldn't you go tell someone else in the family at that point?

    If one believes that she was only treated at the clinic, then one must accept the possibility that she was not seriously hurt. She may have been beaten but not raped.

    To assume that people who brought her to the clinic, and those who treated her, did not report the crime, would be quite callous. It would be effectively accusing all these people to be part of the coverup of the crime. I cannot believe that's what happened.

    Really? You know any of this for a fact? How do you know what equipment the clinic had or did not have? Were you there? Do you have statistics or documentation showing what equipment was available in that clinic?

    Are you a doctor? Do you know what the govt/clinic/hospital policies and regulations were for treatment of such injuries. On which injuries would / would not be treated in a clinic versus a hospital?

    Are you familiar with how many rape victims do not report their crime? How many rapes get covered up on college campuses, even by health clinic workers who want to cover it up for the sake of the university? In fact, wouldn't this explain why they kept her at the clinic instead of sending her off campus to a hospital - that they didn't want to suffer the potential repercussions of having a rape on campus? That someone might get in trouble with the government?

    Because the penalty for rape was the death penalty means that people would have reported it? What sense does that make? Do you know who brought her to the clinic? Do you even know if they saw what happened?

    I don't know what kind of vendetta you have against this woman, or what these daily diaries are all about. But accusing this woman of making up a rape when you have no facts, no documentation, no witness to the contrary - indeed, no knowledge whatsoever about the incident - is beyond the pale.

    Liberalism is trust of the people tempered by prudence. Conservatism is distrust of the people tempered by fear. ~William E. Gladstone, 1866

    by absdoggy on Fri Feb 08, 2013 at 09:11:54 AM PST

    •  The parts in block quotes are directly from the (2+ / 1-)
      Recommended by:
      hailanzhiguang, Buhui
      Hidden by:
      freelancewoman

      book.

      Did I question about the victim not reporting the crime? I'm not sure that you read the right diary. I questioned why the doctors, nurses and people who brought her to the clinic did not report the crime.

      So now you are really accusing the doctors and nurses to participate in a cover up. Ok. That settles your credibility.

      •  See the current story about rape at Notre Dame (9+ / 0-)

        In yet another horrifying suicide story, a freshman at St. Mary’s College, a private Catholic liberal arts school near Notre Dame, died earlier this semester in what appeared to be a suicide, nine days after reporting being raped by a Notre Dame football player.  Two months later, the player remains on the field, and Notre Dame is refusing to publicly acknowledge the case.

        Lizzy Seeburg, the young woman who was assaulted, died in her room of an apparent overdose on prescription medication during the third week of classes.  Campus authorities did not mention the fact that she had reported sexual assault when police began to investigate her death, nor did they refer the case to the county’s special victims unit.

        The Notre Dame police, rather than turning the case over to the St. Joseph County special victims unit, have chosen to handle it themselves — and they say they don't have to abide by the open records laws governing the rest of Indiana. They have not asked the county prosecutor to charge anyone, and the university wouldn't make officials available for comment

        Liberalism is trust of the people tempered by prudence. Conservatism is distrust of the people tempered by fear. ~William E. Gladstone, 1866

        by absdoggy on Fri Feb 08, 2013 at 09:25:43 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  Or how about this one? (6+ / 0-)

        Maroondah Hospital has been accused of covering up an alleged rape in its psychiatric ward. The woman, known only as Alexandra, claims she was raped by a male patient three years ago at the hospital, which is run by Eastern Health, but then told by staff to forget it had ever happened. She says she told nurses about the attack, but authorities failed to report the allegations to police

        Liberalism is trust of the people tempered by prudence. Conservatism is distrust of the people tempered by fear. ~William E. Gladstone, 1866

        by absdoggy on Fri Feb 08, 2013 at 09:27:45 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  I don't know what your examples have anything to (3+ / 1-)
          Recommended by:
          alain2112, hailanzhiguang, Buhui
          Hidden by:
          bontemps2012

          do with what is being discussed in my diary.

          Do you believe that the doctors and nurses who treated a 10 year old rape victim with severe injuries would want to cover it up?

          Seriously?

          And you believe that a child would not call for help from someone at the scene, but from another child who was not even at the scene?

      •  Or these: (3+ / 0-)

        Cover-up of rapes by Catholic priests, including by doctors and nurses who treated the victims, and school nurses at Catholic schools who treated the victims.

        The cover-up of rape of Jessica Lynch by the military and Haliburton, including the on-site medics who treated her.

        So yes, I am accusing doctors, nurses, university officials, even religious leaders of participating in the cover-up of rapes.

        To deny this happens settles your credibility.

        Liberalism is trust of the people tempered by prudence. Conservatism is distrust of the people tempered by fear. ~William E. Gladstone, 1866

        by absdoggy on Fri Feb 08, 2013 at 09:31:35 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Another appeal to political correctness (3+ / 1-)
          Recommended by:
          penguins4peace, alain2112, Buhui
          Hidden by:
          freelancewoman
          The authorized biography, I Am A Soldier Too: The Jessica Lynch Story, by Pulitzer Prize-winning journalist Rick Bragg states that Lynch had been raped in the three hours she was unconscious during her captivity, based on medical records and her pattern of injuries. Lynch does not recall any sexual assault and was "adamantly opposed to including the rape claim in the book," but that Bragg wore her down and told her that "people need to know that this is what can happen to women soldiers".
      •  um, professionals cover up rape all the time. (7+ / 0-)

        I don't know this story, or China, but worldwide, rapes are denied and covered up by medical professionals routinely.

        why are you even bothering with this? it's wholly repugnant. don't you have some service you could actually do for mankind rather than spending your energy attacking a woman who says she was raped?

    •  I did't notice this part in your comment (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Buhui
      If it was a trap to get Ping out of her room, then wouldn't the people who beat and raped her tell the kids what to yell?
      So you believe that it was a trap.

      Ok. We agree. End of argument.

  •  why in the world would you even want to (6+ / 0-)

    start picking apart somebody's rape story?

    walk away from this.

  •  There are other parts of the book that may be (4+ / 0-)

    inconsistent. Leave the rape story alone. Whether it's true or not. And the claim that no one reported the rape thus it didn't happen is really weak.

  •  Checking you recent (5+ / 0-)

    diaries - you seem to have a bizarre obsession with this topic.

    •  It's not bizarre (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      hailanzhiguang, alain2112, Buhui

      If you can read Chinese, on all the Chinese language bbs forums (those in the US and not subject to censorship by Chinese government), this is the no 1 topic.

    •  Try: 8-cents a posting. (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Lonely Texan

      That's 1/2 a yuan.

      Written as "50 cents" using the yuan as the Chinese dollar.

      Ai Wei-wei has an interview on the internet explaining how the system works.

      10,000 postings on DKOS gets $800. At 1 per 30 seconds, that's roughly $9.60 an hour.

      Great wage for China. Only requires English fluency.

      "Have you left no sense of decency, sir, at long last?" Army Attorney to Sen. McCarthy, 1954. "We have done nothing to be ashamed of. We have nothing to apologize for." NRA 12/14/2012.

      by bontemps2012 on Fri Feb 08, 2013 at 03:17:13 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  this makes more sense now (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    xgz, Buhui

    I wenr back and looked at your profile and found that you have been doing a serial review of this book. So it makes more sense then when I just read without even knowing that there was such a book.

    From some of the reviews I read, it sounds like the book is inconsistent and maybe untrue.  I can really angry when it feels like someone is misrepresenting ME (as woman, as mnoriy, as political animal) to engrandize themselvesand it feels like they are selling me out.  For instance, Ihate Richard Rodriguez because his writing makes me feel both slimy and angry. I am making an assumption that you are coming from something close to that kind of feeling.

    I hope you work out whatever it is about this book that is eating at you because sometimes we just need to walk away from those things and go on with our lives.  Those thing do not define us.

    Take care ... and after teh reviews, I don't feel like reading the book.

    "Life without liberty is like a body without spirit. Liberty without thought is like a disturbed spirit." Kahlil Gibran, 'The Vision'

    by CorinaR on Fri Feb 08, 2013 at 10:42:20 AM PST

    •  Thank you. Yes, it's more because the falsehood (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      CorinaR, alain2112, Buhui

      misrepresneted our past sufferings. It is also because that the media reaction that labeled the critics as a smear campaign by the Chinese government really hurts. I hope what I am doing here can show that this is a Chinese American's genuine reaction, not related to anyone's commercial or political agenda.

      •  In that case (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        xgz

        you would have a more powerful diary/essay if you did one review showing the inconsistencies and then telling your story/feelings about the issues.

        By doing this one issue at a time, we miss the big picture  and in this particular diary criticisng her rape, you will get all the people who are adamant about rape victims when what you really want to do is point out how false you consider Fu's entire book to be.

        I look forward to reading about this from your point of view. I am going to get in trouble fro saying this ... BUT since this is a mostly White site, our little niche minority views can get lost. Most of the time it is not a big deal, sometimes we need to say something for our own well being.

        "Life without liberty is like a body without spirit. Liberty without thought is like a disturbed spirit." Kahlil Gibran, 'The Vision'

        by CorinaR on Fri Feb 08, 2013 at 11:13:01 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Yes, I appreciate your suggestion. (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Buhui

          The main reason I am doing this one diary at a time, is because it sort of evolved into a long series, without me intending to.

          It is also needed to be done piecemeal to maintain the momentum. Otherwise it will just die off, and we will be neglected again.

          It's hard to be minorities.

          •  I can appreciate that (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            xgz

            but maybe put in a header that tells us that it is part of a series and reminds us of the big picture.

            It is hard being a minority, especially when people think, that because they approve your cause therefore they have the right attitude about everything.

            I frequently don't know if I am a little pepper that spices things up or the curry powder that makes me sick.  LOL

            "Life without liberty is like a body without spirit. Liberty without thought is like a disturbed spirit." Kahlil Gibran, 'The Vision'

            by CorinaR on Fri Feb 08, 2013 at 11:28:03 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

      •  I have read all your posts (3+ / 1-)
        Recommended by:
        hailanzhiguang, hqc, xgz
        Hidden by:
        Istillhope

        and I lived through that period, so i understand why you are doing this. I don't think people here realize how ignorant we were about sex then. I remember I avoided sitting anywhere near boys in high school because I thought a girl could get pregnant by sitting too close to a boy. My co worker here in the States told me she used to think holding hands with a boy would get a girl pregnant. We are talking about high school students here, not some elementary school kids. I just cannot see how those teenagers, being as ignorant as we were then about sex, could commit gang rape in broad daylight. I would have believed it if she said she was raped  or gang raped by workers rebel brigade (工人造反派). Not in broad daylight though since rape is a crime punishable by death. Even those workers rebel brigade members were not that dumb to commit rape in broad daylight.

        •  How is xgz already following you (0+ / 0-)

          when this is your first post?

          •  Are you actually expecting me to answer (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            xgz

            your question?  I don't want to offend you but it is really an odd question. How should I should why somebody else is following me?!

          •  Actually I retract that (0+ / 0-)

            you are following him, but did not make a single comment in any of the diaries you claim to have been reading, until after his sock puppets were called out.

            I am guessing you are in the same "time zone" as the others which is why you coincidentally did not comment during the time when all three of them stopped responding to the diary,

            I guess we are now back to you guys responding one at a time?

        •  Seriously? Another woman instantly recommended (0+ / 0-)

          this post?  Stating that teenage boys could not possibly have committed gang rape because they were ignorant about sex??!!

          Actually considering the staleness of this diary, it is also amazing that she was able to read and recommend the one new comment so quickly.

  •  I do not understand your first point at all. (3+ / 0-)

    since apparently NO ONE IS CLAIMING that the drowning story was true.  Regardless of whether what the children were yelling made total sense, anyone who heard children yelling that her sister was drowning would rush out to see what was going on.  So as a trap it works, and that is what the claim was correct?  That is was a lie to set a trap?  

    Regarding her injuries, I have no idea of whether you are correct about what type of facilities they had at the time, but I do know that I have never met a person who was seriously injured who gave a 100% medically correct description of their injuries/procedures.

    •  Also (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      freelancewoman, bontemps2012

      One would assume that if someone was actually drowning, the closest adult would be called for help (or kids would jump in to help) but someone might also run and get a family member.  The fact that they were calling for her, does not force the conclusion that they didn't have others helping already.

      I of course meant that I have never known a lay person to give a completely correct medical description.  She also might have later realized that she sustained certain injuries that were not completely diagnosed at the time.

      Of course if a rape victim gets any details wrong they could not possibly have been raped, much less if they lied about something or exaggerated (snark)

      Let me add that I have no familiarity whatsoever with this case, and thus have no idea what the truth is.  However, I find your diary 100% unpersuasive.

      •  She claimed to have had over 40 stitches (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        bontemps2012, hailanzhiguang, Buhui

        That was not something that could be remembered wrong. Deep wounds, possible broken bones, plus she lost consciousness. A patient like that should be sent to a hospital. A health clinic would not be able to handle that. I am not questioning the nautre of the wounds from her memory. I am questioning the inconsistency between the nature of the wounds (they don't have to be accurate, just how severe they were) and the fact that she was not sent to a hospital.

        •  Why does number of stitches necessitate hospitizat (0+ / 0-)

          If a clinic can do 5 stitches they can do 40, and it would make more sense to do them right away then to send someone on to a hospital.  Or are you an expert on this?

          Only "possible" broken bones?  Even actual broken bones could possibly be handled by a clinic, I assume there purpose was to treat locals with common injuries that would include kids breaking their bones and needing stitches?

          Loss of conscience as in concussion?  When i was hit by a car on a scooter, I hit my head, had a seizure, lost consciousness, awoke in the ambulance, and was not admitted to the hospital.  They  released me, told me to take it easy and told my friend to keep an eye on me for 24 hours, I think a clinic could have handled it as well.

          Again I have no familiarity with this case, maybe it was written by a chronic liar, but you are not persuasive.

          •  You are comparing your American (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            hailanzhiguang, Buhui

            experience with Chinese experience.

            A rural clinic in the US is often better equipped than a regular hospital in China. How would you know if you have a broken bone without X-ray? X-ray machines in China had to be imported, and it is very questionable that a small campus clinic in 1968 would be equipped with an X-ray machine.

            If there are any internal injuries, there is the danger of internal bleeding that could be life threatening and surgeries could be necessary. For rape victims, internal injuries are quite common, especially for a young child. It would be foolhardy for the nurse to keep her at the clinic if she had internal injuries - that could have killed her.

            •  Well since you are addressing it to a mostly (0+ / 0-)

              American audience, (I assume), do you have some type of reference to support these assertions?  Perhaps the opinion of a Chinese medical profession familiar with the time and place?

              Otherwise you are asking us to believe that someone we are unfamiliar with is lieing about being raped based  solely on your opinion about what a clinic could or could not have handled.

              •  No, the clinic is not the "sole" evidence. (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Buhui

                There is the problem of the river being at least a kilometer away from the dorm. And there is the problem of no one reported the crime, despite the fact that a lot of people were involved in saving and treating her.

    •  I see. It never occurred to me that (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      hailanzhiguang, Buhui

      some people would actually take "it was a trap" to be real.

      So these teenagers set the trap to get her out in order to rape her. It made as much sense as Deng asked about "the reporter" who wrote the infanticide article.... Oh, you beleived that one too.

      Never mind.

  •  You have to be a Chinese lived then or (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    xgz, alain2112

    taking at least two-year modern Chinese history courses before you argue against xgz questioning why everyone kept silence till this day about a girl being raped in 1968.

    Gang-rape of a 10 year-old girl in China could happen, but can not be kept quiet in Nanjing for long time. Chinese government is NOT the Catholic church. DO NOT try to project something you have not idea about onto something you do know about.

    Let me give you an example based on a true event: De Zhu (朱德) was the general commander of the entire Chinese military, the number 3 person in Chinese government. http://zh.wikipedia.org/ zh/朱德 (you may copy and paste and get rid of the blank / before zh) One of Zhu's grandsons Guo-Hua Zhu was sentenced to death in 1983 because he dated too many girls (probably had sex with them, my guess). Although his grandpa died years ago, his grandma who was also a high rank official didn't try to rescue her grandson. Can anyone in the West understand why it happened? Please, please do not assume you have any idea about life, death, love, and sex in China.

    You choose to believe Ping Fu's China story (the eye-ball catching ones) because her story does sound like something that could happen in US (besides the cultural revolution), but it DID! NOT! happen in China. I have seen worse, but nothing like her story. What she described is China in another universe. Her story is infinitely improbable. When the probability falls below a threshold, we conclude otherwise. This is how we use DNA (e.g. one in 6 billion) match to catch criminals, and this is how we catch cheaters in our classroom (~5 sigma = 1 in three million).

    Was Ping raped when she was 10 year old, we may never know. What we can be sure is that what she described in her book didn't happen.

    •  3,000,000 were murdered. (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Istillhope, Lonely Texan

      Mao urged "rape the landowner's wife" to his followers. A barbarian.

      Rape a 10-year old ??? Of course.

      The aim of the Cultural Revolution was to eliminate the educated classes as rivals to Mao's barbaric leadership.

      "Have you left no sense of decency, sir, at long last?" Army Attorney to Sen. McCarthy, 1954. "We have done nothing to be ashamed of. We have nothing to apologize for." NRA 12/14/2012.

      by bontemps2012 on Fri Feb 08, 2013 at 03:22:44 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  Here's what I don't get? (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Istillhope

    From a critic of Ping Fu on Amazon:

    And it is also true that during the Culture Revolution, all the tragedies described in her book have happened in numerous places and numerous times in China.
    Now, I have recc'd your previous diaries as regards two things:

    1) It is indeed racist to claim that the critics of these books must all be Chinese government plants.

    2) If there is FACTUAL evidence of errors in the book, and not this dairy's unsubstantiated, undocumented conjecture, then I happily agree that the errors should be addressed.

    But in the end, I am trying to understand the vitriol against Ping Fu.  Ultimately, this is a girl who was caught up in the abuses of the cultural revolution in China - which, as noted above, did happen -  came to America with nothing, and became a great success story.

    Why all the focus on the errors and not on the success story?

    Liberalism is trust of the people tempered by prudence. Conservatism is distrust of the people tempered by fear. ~William E. Gladstone, 1866

    by absdoggy on Fri Feb 08, 2013 at 12:26:43 PM PST

    •  This why we are angry (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      xgz, hailanzhiguang

      Many of us are successful. We are happy to realize our American dreams. We suffered through the cultural revolution, came with nothing, and made our way up. We are angry at her lies, which are selling well in US. Who is paying the price for her best seller status? We are! We still carry the pain of the past. Do you know who are the most angry ones? those who suffered the most (lost father, uncle, relative). Ping Fu's lies and cheap shots discounted the pain this generation bore.

      I will address factual evidence later.

      •  As I said, I recc'd previous diaries (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        bontemps2012

        Which did have factual evidence as to errors in the book. This diary does not.

        For example, the whole episode about seeing a person being drawn and quartered, which Ping Fu now admits was a nightmare, and not reality.

        It just seems to me that 90% or more of the book is an accurate and inspirational narrative of her life, offset by 10% that represents inconsistencies, exaggerations and errors.  It certainly takes away from the book and her own integrity, but all in all I take her story as a positive.

        Liberalism is trust of the people tempered by prudence. Conservatism is distrust of the people tempered by fear. ~William E. Gladstone, 1866

        by absdoggy on Fri Feb 08, 2013 at 01:04:15 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Perhaps another example (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          bontemps2012

          You may have read or heard about Frank McCourt's books, Angela's Ashes and 'Tis.  Angela's Ashes is about his life growing up in the poverty of Ireland back in the 1930s and 1940s, and then " 'Tis " is a story of how he made it here in the United States after arriving as an immigrant with nothing but the clothes on his back.

          Ok, so this describes some of my ancestors as well, who suffered at the hands of the British back in the 1800s, or through the Great Depression in Ireland which was even worse than it was here. It's their story too, their pain.

          Now, it's pretty well proven at this point that McCourt embellished some of his stories in the book, or that some of the incidents didn't happen. But, by and large, it is a legitimate depiction of how things were in Ireland, and neither I nor my parents take it as hurtful or think that we are "paying the price" for the parts that weren't accurate. It's an inspirational tale (even if the most recent events re the Los Angeles Dodgers and his divorce are pretty ugly) and I don't see any reason to get angry at him.

          Liberalism is trust of the people tempered by prudence. Conservatism is distrust of the people tempered by fear. ~William E. Gladstone, 1866

          by absdoggy on Fri Feb 08, 2013 at 01:15:28 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  McCourt is Irish. Of course he (0+ / 0-)

            embellishes.

            How else could he tell a story ?????

            (And he left out the wee people, so we'd know it wasn't all fiction.)

            "Have you left no sense of decency, sir, at long last?" Army Attorney to Sen. McCarthy, 1954. "We have done nothing to be ashamed of. We have nothing to apologize for." NRA 12/14/2012.

            by bontemps2012 on Fri Feb 08, 2013 at 03:26:25 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

        •  90% of the book is fabricated (1+ / 1-)
          Recommended by:
          hailanzhiguang
          Hidden by:
          bontemps2012

          She never lived in Shanghai, for example.

          The rape problem is a difficult one, I agree. But the inconsistencies are obvious. In a different context, I'd inclined to give her a pass. But given that she lied everywhere else, then it is necessary to make a note about these inconsistencies.

          That you don't accept these as inconsistencies is just your opinion. You cannot use your own prejudice to convince us.

          You can try to shut us up. But then you are no better than the Chinese government.

        •  See my update (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          hailanzhiguang, Buhui

          I just got information from a netter that the river is at least one kilometer away from the campus. There is no way anyone could have heard the scream from that distance.

          She made up the story for the consumption of outside people like you and me.

        •  Accurate? (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          xgz

          Where did you get this 90% statistics? You CHOOSE to believe. I never argue with anybody who believes in God about the existence of God.
          So long.

  •  so somehow you think this book is painting (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    bontemps2012

    a prejudicial image of chinese people from that era?  i really don't see much of a ripple effect here. perhaps you have a heightened sensitivity about your heritage and honor of China/chinese people?  if true in anyway, it still is an isolated incidence.  if this book told of widespread or systemic problems, then perhaps some readers would think, 'oh what a terrible time that must have been' and then what?  will they wonder if their coworker is a criminal from that era?  

    i am sorry if you seem to face such scrutiny.  i am not even slightly prone to think this book impacts my relationships with chinese of any age.  but racist-types do like to make outrageous comments on the internet.  look at what they say about President Obama ALL THE TIME and the DK hatemail.  Scandalous talkers like that are as rare as they are locquacious.

    sometimes I spend more time reading the comments than the diaries. no offense to diarists: thanks for the launch pad.

    by dunnjen on Fri Feb 08, 2013 at 02:28:06 PM PST

    •  No, the book is not painting a prejudicial image (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Buhui

      of Chinese people.

      The problem of the book is that essentially all stories in the book are fabricated. They are simply not true. There are many books and memoirs that tell the story of that period in China, none of them get this kind of reaction from anyone, because they told the truth. For example, Nien Cheng's Life and Death in Shanghai, is a very good book.

      I find that most white Americans do not try to understand the issue we are trying to raise, instead always think that we have a problem with the "image". That is very condescending, and racist. I sorry I have to tell you this, but it is.

      •  i got that idea from your replies to comments (0+ / 0-)

        somehow this is a big deal to you that you can poke holes in her account of a childhood event.  i tried to understand from you why this means so much and still don't get it?

        okay then.   try to have a happy new year. or try to try.

        sometimes I spend more time reading the comments than the diaries. no offense to diarists: thanks for the launch pad.

        by dunnjen on Fri Feb 08, 2013 at 04:55:50 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Why does Chinese people care about this? (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          xgz, Buhui, CorinaR

          Some Americans may think that since Fu criticized Culture Revolution, then she is attacking CCP’s reputation, and by doing so she is a good and inspiring role model. So it does not matter if she lied or not.  

          In fact, the CCP itself had already criticized the Culture Revolution, so who ever criticized the CCP on the Culture Revolution is not as brave as those who criticize today's CCP.  Those people who attack CCP with lies can only benefit themselves and the CCP.  As always, the CCP criticizes American media for disgracing its name with lies. Usually the Chinese people with pro-democracy beliefs believe what the US media says, while the Maoists and people who have been brainwashed by the CCP believe what the CCP says. But this time, most Chinese people believe that Fuping is lying and the west media is helping a lair. Because most people who have experienced Culture Revolution knew what it really looked like. It was a terrible time, and the Red Guards were young criminals (Fuping was one of the Red Guards). They beat people, fought each other to death with weapons, and destroyed people’s property and historical remains. They have been educated that those were revolutionary actions. But they would not rape, since sex was not a part of revolution, it was even against the revolution to rape. There were rapes that happened, but the criminals were older. As xgz said,”” If this story (Fuping’s) was true, then it was not an indictment of the Cultural Revolution, but an indictment of every Chinese, those who covered up the crime, and those who still refuse to believe the cultural revolution today.”

          Fuping did not lie about one thing, but many things. Other details on how she lied have been mentioned in precisely xgz’s articles and our comments.  Her credibility has been questioned.

          Lies are insulting common people, like you, and me or anyone pursues the truth; Insulting those who have really suffered badly by the prosecution of CCP, since those people truly need help from USA.

           Lies also damage the credibility of free media and American democracy; which would lead to further damage in our learning from American system;  and even damage our democratic movement.

          We would like to fight for Chinese Democracy with truth, not lies.

          •  Yes, democracy is at a very difficult stage (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            hailanzhiguang, alain2112, Buhui

            in China today. The Chinese government is trying all it can to paint the western media as untrustworthy and biased.

            Because Ping Fu's story is universally recognized as lies in China, the fact that her story receives a huge positive publicity in the US plays right into the Chinese government propaganda. It is very damaging to the democracy movement in China.

            In order to fight for democracy in China, we must first fight for truth.

    •  It is our history (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      xgz

      that Ping Fu is abusing with her lies. I was then a Chinese and now an American. I understand that it was never yours, and I understand that you don't care about as much as I do. But, now you are implying that some lies about our history should not bother us because it won't raise any problem in your relationship with Chinese. Well, it a good thing that I don't know you. Otherwise, I would have to unfriend you, which could be lot of headache.

  •  This diary is a major FAIL. (0+ / 0-)

    Can't CCP hire someone to present their side with balanced, logical consideration of the good and the shortcomings of Ping Fu's book ???

    This makes CCP look as wacked out as our Tea Party Bircher Madness crazies.

    Everyone who has taken a World History course knows that the Cultural Revolution devolved to a feral exercise at savagery.

    Anyone who has looked at the career of Mao Zedong knows he went over the deep end and before the point where Krushchev was removed in Russia.

    Red Guards ??? What they did varied all over the range from helper-worker good guys to criminal gangs that combined murder/rape/theft/extortion. There was no hierarchy and little local police control on their activities. 3,000,000 murders gives you a measure of the worst of it.

    "Have you left no sense of decency, sir, at long last?" Army Attorney to Sen. McCarthy, 1954. "We have done nothing to be ashamed of. We have nothing to apologize for." NRA 12/14/2012.

    by bontemps2012 on Fri Feb 08, 2013 at 03:37:53 PM PST

  •  You cannot stomach reading about a rape (0+ / 0-)

    yet you have the intestinal fortitude to make such an extreme accusation?  Seems a little skewed.  

    •  Unable to question my evidence (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      hailanzhiguang, Buhui

      Are you now turning to personal attacks, just like the other two characters commenting in this diary?

      •  I have questioned all of your evidence (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        terrybuck

        and you cannot back up a single one.  (Does not mean you are not right just that you are wholly unpersuasive)

        Since the only "evidence" you are offering is your own unsupported opinion, it leads one to question where that opinion is coming from.

        A very common phenomenon is to blame the victim because the reality that her account is true is just too horrible to contemplate.  (this is why an entire town can support rapists and call a victim a "slut." even when the evidence is actually overwhelming.)

        When someone finds it easier to make an accusation like this, than to even read the original account, it makes one wonder.    

        •  I read the original account in the book (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          hailanzhiguang, Buhui

          just didn't want to analyze the details of the part involving beating and raping. There have been others who have questioned those parts. If you can read Chinese you may be able to search for those analyses.

          I am just pointing out that there are three inconsistencies in parts preceding and after the beating and rape:
          1. The river was too far, the screams too much staged;
          2. The clinic was not likely to be equipped to deal with the type of injuries;
          3. No one reported the crime, although many people treated her.

          1 is a fact. 2 is likely to be a fact (we are talking about 1968 in China), and 3 is from the book.

          There is no more "back up" needed, unless you don't believe the book.

          You choose not to be persuaded. I cannot fault you for that. But reverting to personal attacks would indicate something entirely different.

        •  ??? (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          xgz

          Why do you keep projecting events in China to your experiences?

          •  I am not aware of any civilization (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Lonely Texan

            in our entire history where either gang rapes could not occur or large portions of society did not automatically blame the victim.  And yet many of the negative reviews of this book insist that gang rapes simply did not occur during the cultural revolution.  

            I reject the proposition that the Chinese are so morally superior that the type of gang rapes that have occurred through every society in history simply could not occur in China.

            Throughout the comments the diarist keeps referring to "white liberals" and "white Americans," it is quite a presumption that all of the commentators are white. I am not reacting as a white American but as a human.

            While I do not know exactly what equipment would have been present in a health clinic at that place and time, and I do not read Chinese,  I do know a lot about human nature, be it American, White, or Chinese.  And gang rapes and cover ups are not a uniquely White American experience.

            •  But you kept projecting your own experience (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              hailanzhiguang, Buhui

              onto other cultures without knowing it.

              It is very difficult to communicate this way, because you are so sure of your way of thinking, you simply refuse to look from the other perspective.

              No one here is saying that gang rapes never occurred in China. If you are talking about the debate in a previous diary, then the argument was about whether gang rapes could have occurred with the Red Guards. That point was moot because in the book, the teenagers were not the Red Guards. As far as I could tell, they were the children of the teachers at NUAA.

              Just stop projecting and try to understand a different perspective. If you are unable to do that, then at least don't assume the other side somehow lacks humanity.

              That's the basic respect we are asking. Racism comes in many ways.

              •  I gave this diary a fair shake (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Lonely Texan

                since I knew zero about the subject matter.  The diary is 100% unpersuasive, and the diarist has now resorted to claiming that I should believe him because I do not read Chinese and do not understand Chinese culture. The diarist has also contradicted himself and definitely has an agenda.

                I am unable to conclude that a woman is lieing about being gang raped based on such evidence.  Why would anyone?

                •  I don't know where I have contradicted myself (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  hailanzhiguang

                  If you are referring to when I read the actual account of the rape, you are not giving me a fair shake. I did not read the actual account of the rape when I was debating in the other diary, and that's what I was referring to in the introduction. I may not have expressed myself accurately, but it certainly was not contradicting anything I said here.

                  Whether something is persuasive or not is quite subjective. On this point, you can have your opinion.

                  Yes, I do have an agenda. My agenda is to bring democracy to China. Because I see Ping Fu's lies as very damaging to democrats in China, I have to do battle here. This is part of the work for us. If you are interested in this, I can explain in a separate comment.

                  I don't want to put anyone at risk but I can tell you that there are Chinese democrats in the comment section of this diary. This thing is much bigger than what you see on the surface.

  •  Huh? (0+ / 0-)

    Now you are saying you did read the original account.  Wow, you forgot to edit out this part:

    "My previous exchange on this website with some of the commenters about the rape episode was not based on her book's description (because I still do not have the stomach to read this part), but rather on the reports in the media
    "

    I do want to thank you for one thing, thanks to you I started reading about this very inspirational woman.  I also found this http://www.huffingtonpost.com/...

    I also can absolutely empathize with the false memory of dismemberment, that occurred when she was a very young child, and may have confused the shocking events that actually occurred with simultaneous nightmares.  I actually have some false memories surrounding traumatic events that happened when I was very young, they are not very significant just verifiable false, and yet so very clear.

     But as she explains the rape could not possibly be the same kind of false memory. I certainly see no evidence to accuse this remarkable woman of such a  horrific lie.

  •  If Buhui and xgz are not the same person (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Lonely Texan, terrybuck

    they are remarkably in sync.

    •  Now are you reverting to conspiracy (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Buhui, alain2112

      theory? Why so paranoid? Can't you tell whether someone is a man or a woman?

      She is also a Chinese American, that's why we are "remarkably in sync". I'll show you something that's more in sync:
      http://xys.org/...
      Some is some English there you might be able to read. Everyone there is in agreement. They are all Chinese Americans.

      People of the same cultural background tend to be more "in sync", why are you so surprised?

      •  being of the same cultural background (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Lonely Texan

        causes one to immediately recommend a post the second it goes up?

        Also "she" slipped and responded as if she was the original diarist.

        I certainly hope that I cannot tell whether a poster is male or female.  Just as you should realize that you can not tell if a poster is "white" unless you are just using "white" as a synonym for "not Chinese."

        The last thing I will say is that if you consider this matter so very important you should have put more work into it, instead of just casting aspersions.

        The diary has caused the exact opposite reaction of what you hoped.

        I am done commenting now.  I would wish you a good evening but it would be insincere.

    •  hahaha (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      xgz

      Are you a fan of conspiracy theory?

      Last time I fought on internet like this was to defend Obama against right-wing Chinese-Americans. You remind me of them then. The difference this time is that they are on our side.

  •  great job! (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    xgz, hailanzhiguang, Buhui

    hi xgz,

    Your diaries are very informative. I am amazed at how much time you have spent reading that made-up book. As a fellow PKUer I am proud of you.

    By the way, who did you vote for in 1980? I voted for Fang Zhiyuan. Wang Juntao was too bombastic for my taste. I still remember his big character poster titled something like Is Mao a Marxist? Hu Ping was such a good speaker and so knowledgeable he actually scared me.

    So long for now. Keep up the good work.

    •  Thanks for the encouragement (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      hailanzhiguang, Buhui

      I was too young then and didn't have voting right yet - not yet 18 :-)

      I would have voted for Wang Juntao. I remember Fang Zhiyuan. He finished 4th didn't he? After the 1st round, I remember he endorsed Wang Juntao for the 2nd round.

      PS. Someone on this board is Wang Juntao's friend and just saw him yesterday.

      •  So I guess you and Curious can not be the same (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Lonely Texan, terrybuck

        person since, based on your conversation he is clearly  older than you, just like you cannot be buhai since she is so obviously a woman and you are so obviously a man, and no one on the internet has ever misrepresented their age or gender.  

        Great first post on his part.  I guess he read your other diaries before signing up for this site, but did not feel a need to post until the exact moment your other clearly not sock puppet got called out.

      •  So you were not old enough to have (0+ / 0-)

        any personal knowledge regarding the clinics of that time.  And yet you accuse someone of lieing about a rape based on your wholly unsupported belief of what type of treatment one particular clinic would have offered in an urgent and sensitive situation.

        •  I'm old enough to know what college (0+ / 0-)

          clinics in China looked like in 1970's. A college clinic in 1968 would not be better equipped than in 1970's.

          You are really grasping at straws here.

          •  did not have to be better equipped (0+ / 0-)

            You said all they did was stitch her up.  Your premise is that in that time and place they would have sent her to a hospital.  But you were not there and you do not know this.

            From what I am reading a hospital at that time may not have done anymore for her.  Thus once she got her emergency stitches, the clinic may well have decided not to put her through any more.  or may have decided to keep her there for other reasons.

            But the reality is neither of us have any personal experience about that specific time and place but I am not accusing someone of lieing about rape based on some agenda.

            The one person who was there at the time, and is clearly intelligent is Ping Fu.  If she were lieing why would she use made up details that you claim are so wholly unbelievable?  

            You are the one grasping at straws and I am pointing out how heinous you are coming across at this point. I do thank you for educating people like me about the lengths some people are going to discredit this woman and other like her.  Very illuminating.

            I say create new sock monkeys and start over.

            •  You conveniently left out "internal injuries" (0+ / 0-)

              A clinic would simply stitch the wounds up and leave the internal injuries untreated? Your intellectual dishonesty is pretty obvious here.

              •  Yes they would (0+ / 0-)

                It even happens here in emergency rooms.  So your premise is that she s lieing about a rape because based on her accounts she had internal injuries and some rural clinic would have known that, and would have automatically sent her off to some top notch hospital that would have given her great care.  (Because human life was such a  priority during the Cultural revolution)

                FYI  both of your sock monkeys should not be here around the clock to give instant responses, it is a little too transparent.  

        •  I am two years older than Ping Fu and (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          xgz

          my mother was a professor at a university in Hunan China. I can tell you what a clinic in a university was like in those days when Ping claimed she was gang raped: a couple stools, a desk, a few shelves with several bottles of Aspirin and some antibiotics, a "plank bed" with a white sheet over it, a  couple "doctors" (with no MD degree but with a stethoscope of course) and couple nurses coming from nowhere. Does this make you feel better how poor the Chinese were at that time? That was a university clinic where the severely traumatized and unconscious victim, our heroine in Bend not Break, was treated after she was gang raped in the broad daylight. Miraculously, she survived to tell her story. You make the judgment.

          BTW, at that time, the Chinese people were so malnutritioned that those words of high blood pressure, diabetes, obesity were just not in the Chinese vocabulary. Fatness was the beauty in the beholder's eye. And fat meat was most appealing to one's palate. Then, the defense lawyer would be quick to refute the fact by saying how come there were no liposuction equipment, no high blood pressure meters in those clinics. How obesity was beheld as beauty and how people liked fat meat which is detrimental to one's health. That must be untrue!

      •  your patience is admirable (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        xgz, Buhui, hailanzhiguang

        I posted another comment last night and it did not show. Strange.

        Below I copy the book review I wrote for Amazon:

        The formula of the book is simple:

        Phase 1 (pre-cultural revolution): Fu lived a life of luxury and comfort. Phase 2 (during and immediately after cultural revolution): Fu was the victim of the most unspeakable atrocities. Phase 3 (coming to America to present day): Fu rose from the ashes to achieve business success and realize the American dream. To a unsuspecting reader this roller coaster ride creates a satisfying reading experience.

        This is a time-tested formula. For a person who lived a fairly mundane existence in China, to make it work, Fu has no choice but to fabricate stories to fill Phases 1 and 2.

        Here is another nugget.

        Fu said that her Shanghai brothers were sent "up to the mountains and down to the villages" against their will in 1966. This is another lie. The "up to the mountains and down to the villages" movement was initiated in 1968. Both of my sisters were part of that.

        Is this another memory error? Unlikely, because 1966 is also the year, according to the book, she was taken from Shanghai and sent to Nanjing. It is quite convenient to send her brothers up to the mountains and down to the villages in the same year.

        By the way I really liked your debunking of Ping Fu's fantasy life in Shanghai. 8 hot dishes, 4 appetizers, and soup EVERY night. Yummy.

        This woman's capacity to make things up exceeds my ability to imagine.

        Some comments wonder why our criticisms are so alike. Simple. We all grew up in the same era as Fu. Most of us are highly educated professionals and have lived in this country for many years. We live honest and productive lives. We despise liars. That is all.  

        •  My theory (pure speculation) is (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Buhui

          that Ping Fu was actually born in Shanghai, and her Shanghai papa and mama were her biological parents. They had 6 children, while Ping's Nanjing parents had none at that time. So they gave their youngest girl to their sister and her husband. Ping Fu must have learned of this in 1966. It could have been very traumatic because someone other than her parents told her this. She must have heard about the luxurious life her aunt and uncle were living in Shanghai. Now she realized that all of that could have been hers. That's why she concocted this fantasy life in Shanghai to compensate for what her perceived as a miserable life in Nanjing - even though her life in Nanjing was already much better than most Chinese at that time.

          This is just my speculation but it can explain all of her stories and give her a motive for making them up.

          It's sort of sad, but there weren't anyone to blame.

          •  theory (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            hailanzhiguang, xgz

            You think she made things up as a result of early life trauma. I am not sure I buy that. To me her lying is quite goal-oriented. In the mid 1980s she made up stories to gain political asylum. Now she made up stories to connect with her potential readers to sell books.

            In the thread on Amazon under lin's book review there are some discussions regarding her wiki page. There were claims about her achievement in the US in earlier versions of the page that aroused suspicions and it is now revised.

            In addition to lin, there is another person named Jean Z. who is doing a lot of work documenting all the happenings.

             

        •  Well said (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          xgz

          Good point on "up to the mountains and down to the villages". It doesn't sounds like she was close to her "brothers". Even if this book sells as a fiction, it is still a sloppy job with full of typos (her language).

  •  Don't waste your time (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    xgz

    XGZ, I don't know if or not your can just delete the idiotic comments posted here as they don't provide any intellectual value. People's minds were more or less made up when they post messages agreeing with or against you. Why not learn some tricks Mei-Mei Fox used -- she is a supper user at huffington post and deleted comments that are not in favor of Ping Fu.

    Your blog is already well know in Chinese-American community. You should focus on them instead of a few idiots here.

     

    •  No, I can't delete comments here (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Buhui

      I have super user status and I can hide rate comments. But the rule is I cannot hide rate comments in my own diary. When you become a super user you can hide rate comments too. But that requires significant contribution on dailykos.

      Some of my comments in this diary has been hide rated by a couple of people already. You guys need to learn how to recommend a comment to counteract their abuse of hide rates.

  •  I cannot begin to tell you how deeply offensive (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Lonely Texan, begone, terrybuck

    I find this diary.

    If one believes that she was only treated at the clinic, then one must accept the possibility that she was not seriously hurt. She may have been beaten but not raped.
    I am just going to walk away.

    Maya Angelou: "Without courage, we cannot practice any other virtue with consistency. We can't be kind, true, merciful, generous, or honest."

    by JoanMar on Fri Feb 08, 2013 at 08:06:41 PM PST

    •  Please close the door from outside (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      xgz

      if you want to walk away.

      The so-called clinic described in her book was an infirmary that most institutes, factories, etc had, nothing like the clinics or infirmaries in US. It treated people with some disinfection chemicals for minor injuries but not severe ones. This is why we Chinese-Americans who lived that period find it hard to accept Ping Fu's story. If you raise this question with an open mind, I am happy to help you to understand. Otherwise, please just walk away.

    •  JoanMar, I suppose that you were upset with this (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      xgz, Buhui

      statement because you probably had the US concept of "Clinic" in mind. It is true that in US, a university clinic has a team of doc and nurse; and operates like a hospital. But in China, especially back in the 70’s and 80’s, a clinic was really a first aid station, the "doctors" were no more than EMT/first aid technicians, not formally trained in the US sense of medical school or even nursing program. Typically, the “Clinic doctors” were aware of some very limited medical knowledge and procedures: they may knew enough to treat a minor cut or dispensing some flu medicine; they were not (generally) capable of treatment that requires real medical skills. If an student had sustained the injury as described in Ms. Fu’s book, she would have been immediately transferred to a hospital for the treatment, the “doctors” in the university Clinic would not have had necessary the training and skill to handle her case.  

      As I read the most comments here, I realized how difficult for us human being to understand something we have no life experiences with, and how easily for us to judge and give a conclusion based on our own knowledge and life experiences.

  •  this is just bizarre (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Lonely Texan, begone

    Am I actually reading this? And the 600000 UID comments stroking the diary. I should go to bed. I would, but I'm waiting for the lovely wife to get home, she went to pick up her sister and no, there are no canals around.

    This Rover crossed over.. Willie Nelson, written by Dorothy Fields

    by Karl Rover on Fri Feb 08, 2013 at 08:08:33 PM PST

  •  More puzzles and clues (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    xgz

    In the beginning of the chapter where gang-rape is described, Fu introduced a character named "Zhang", who accused Fu letting a boy wash her bra. I am very puzzled - why this Zhang assumed that Fu, a 10-year old, was wearing a bra? Possible explanations could be 1) Zhang is someone very close and 2) Fu made it up. Later, Zhang called Fu a "broken shoe".

    This "broken shoe" leads to another puzzle. In Chinese, "broken shoe" refers to women who have sex before or outside marriage, it was one of most ferocious humiliating terms. To call a 10-year old "broken shoe" would take a evil soul. If Fu cares about identifying this woman, we can start an investigation.

    Zhang was also responsible for spreading the word "broken shoe". In China, rumors propagate faster than the speed of light (? a quiz question for this lovely Saturday morning). Words of this nature would be known by tens of thousands of people in no time. With little effort, xgz should be able to find out from then girls and boys who shared their childhood on UNAA campus.

  •  Why is it important (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    xgz

    to get the truth about gang-rape out?
    It is a tough topic in almost all eras. In the US or some other US-like countries, many women victims don't come forward for various reasons. One of the reasons is the fear of being accused as a liar in court, defense lawyers in the US are unarguably world class. In addition, there is a small percentage of false rape allegations, which are considered  an assault on justice.

    In China with the exception of the most recent 20+ years, the biggest fear was the woman's reputation. For unmarried girls and young women, virginity was something considered to be as important as life itself. The biggest fear was to let anybody know about the sex part in rape. If in anyway a girl lost her virginity, her life prospect would be very gloomy.

    A small percentage of the population do have a personality disorder. Fabricating stories of gang-rape greatly harms rape victims since it suppress victims from coming forward.

    We have recently learned many rape cases in India. If one of them were later found untrue, this one lie could push back the public outcry for increasing the level of punishment for rapists.

    We have to take this matter seriously.

    •  You need to attack this woman (0+ / 0-)

      so that other women will come forward and not fear that they will being attacked for doing so.  This is either the most disingenuous or stupidest argument yet.

      But thank you for finally admitting that even in China, rapes go unreported.

      •  I am attacking lies (0+ / 0-)

        You didn't read the book, not carefully. You didn't even read this dairy or comments carefully. This alone makes your opinions irrelevant. Some rape cases went unreported in China, no doubt about it. That can't justify fabrication of rape story. It is NOT OK to lie, woman or man. Period.

        •  So do not pretend you are atttacking her to (0+ / 0-)

          protect victims.  As you know these attacks will make victims less likely to come forward.

          If a man were possibly being falsely accused of rape we MUST find the truth, regardless of the collateral damage.

          But here were no specific people are being accused, why are you so motivated to go after this woman on such flimsy evidence?

          I have not read the book.  The only thing I have to go on is this diary and other forum posts, as well as the Huffington post interview.  So you took someone who knew nothing about this subject matter and created an incredibly negative impression.

          I can assure you that the way books are written and then edited there is probably not one single autobiography that I could not poker huge holes through if I spent enough time working on it, especially when it is based on recollections of childhood.  

          So it is actually amazing that you have not come up with even one uncontrovertable fact to discredit her.

          •  If you wanted a serious discussion, (0+ / 0-)

            I would be with you. If truth doesn't matter, why not write a fiction instead of a personal memoir? What kind of evidence are you looking for here? Doesn't it bother you if someone fabricate a childhood to get ahead as much as he/she can? and this story is made by distorting and inviting reality that happen to be part of your history? You are defending this liar since you think you are for women. I am defending all other women and men who grew up in the same period of time. The book almost made its way to China. If her lies prevail, does it ever occur to you that it would gave her immense power to finger point some boy she didn't like in her childhood? Since you don't seem to have lived in China, I forgive you for not knowing the system. The system sucks.
            And please stop meaningless guesses, don't you realize that this morning, three not two of us were on the same timeline? and stop using words like female sock pocket. It's disrespectful for woman and it's too childish for any serious discussion.

            •  I used "female" sock puppet (0+ / 0-)

              since the diarist claims you and he cannot be the same person since I am supposed to accept that he is clearly male and you are clearly female.  Thus he has created a "female" character and a "Male" character.  I refer to you as the female character when I do not have the time to check the spelling of your user name.

              If you are going to complain about inappropriate terms I think you should look closer at the repeated derogatory use of "white American" and "white liberal" that you have favored throughout these comments.

              Obviously I am offended when people lie and misrepresent that is why I have spent so much time in this outrageous diary.

              We have certainly ascertained that your priority is not rape victims, so stop pretending to be so sensitive about women's issues.

              •  "The book almost made its way to China" (0+ / 0-)

                We cannot have that now can we?  

                Seriously, do you really think the Chinese people do not know that horrible things happened during the Cultural Revolution.  Or are you afraid they might find out that someone who came from their background could find so much success in a different system?

                •  I know more than what she said in the book (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  hqc

                  I see at least two blind spots in your comments. I have repeated multiple times that I have seen worse (than what she described in the book) in China. We can see that Fu got most of them very wrong because we know a heck a lot more than she does. The only explanation is that she didn't live through what she described. Also, where do you get the idea that I am afraid of a success story in the US. My own story is already a proof that the US system is wonderful, I was invited to tell my story when I became an US citizen.  My story was about a small wish I couldn't fulfill when I was a little girl in Shanghai. Everyone there was so touched since they never could have imaged that was the case.

                  Back to the rape issue, let's agree that we disagree on how to advance woman's rights in this particular aspect. I sincerely do not see any advantage of keeping silence when hearing lies. When she publish stories in the format of personal memoir with an intent to generate a huge publicity, it's our social responsibility to get the truth out. In my professional, truth is the thing and everything.

            •   Actually I have defended accused rapists (0+ / 0-)

              I was a criminal defense attorney myself and have successfully defended the falsely accused.  

              This is about a skill I have of spotting deception, and this Diary and the comments are full of it. It just does not appear to come from the author of the book.

              •  I don't know what to say (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                hqc, xgz

                I am trying to put myself in your shoes, imaging what's like to defend some body who is accused for things I felt strongly against. I always have respect to these professionals: Police, medical doctor/nurse, and lawyer since they have to deal with bad guys, sick guys, and guys in trouble regularly (guys=people).

                The difference between a defense lawyer and xgz is, a defense lawyer has her/his client's interest at heart, but xgz has public interest at heart. They both serve our society.

            •  If you are all three on the same "timeline" (0+ / 0-)

              (and I am not sure how you would know that) then it is even more coincidental that all three of you were here late last night and again early this morning, and none of you could respond for the last two hours.

              When you are in a hole, stop digging.  Seriously.

              •  three? (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                xgz, hqc

                I didn't pay attention till now. This make 4 of us on the same timeline (including yourself). :).

                •  I am not on your timeline (0+ / 0-)

                  I was here 24/7 because I was working on a project.  That was why I was able to see how glaringly obvious it was that 3 of you were posting late Friday night - exactly one of you would instantly reply to anything I posted and none of you could post while the others were posting.

                  Then you were all back early Saturday morning doing the same thing.

                  You were all conspicuously absent during block periods on Saturday.

                  You also know an amazing amount about each other, when two (now three) of you just signed up at this site, these are your first posts and you claim not to know each other in person.

                  My project is done now so I probably wont be checking in again for a while.

  •  You know what would be a neat trick (0+ / 0-)

    if the diarist and his sock puppets could all comment at the exact same time.  It is so neat how exactly one of them responds instantly to one of my posts no matter what time I post it.

  •  Let's focus (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Buhui, xgz, cdwy300

    I would suggest that we focus on the specific case of whether Ms. Fu had fabricated her “life stories”, including the grotesque event of the gang rape. I believe that xgz is making a very specific claim that Ms. Fu (with many other inconsistencies in her various interviews, write ups, and book) is not believable in her claim of “gang rape”.  

  •  good job (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Buhui, hqc, xgz

    Keep it up.

    You seem to have access to her book. Could you check in the book to clarify which one is Ping Fu in the photo of a group of red guards in front of a red guard flag?

    Some say the right most in the front is Fu; some say the second front right in the front.

    She claims she is not wearing a red-guard arm band in the photo and was never a red guard.

    •  Ironically, (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      xgz

      it is the only one who smiles in the photo. Second from left.

    •  I'll type the whole caption of the photo (0+ / 0-)

      for you:

      When I lived in the dormitories, I spent much of my time with students my age. During our mandatory study sessions, we recited slogans from Mao's Little Red Book. I am second from right in the bottom row.
      My translation into proper English:

      When I lived on the NUAA campus, I went to school. The school was mandatory for children my age. There we studied Mao's Little Red Book in addition to math, Chinese, and other subjects. In school I also joined the Red Guards. The picture below shows me proudly displaying my Red Guard armband.

  •  Google CR and gang rape in Chinese (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    xgz, hailanzhiguang, hqc

    Google CR and gang rape in Chinese, and over half of the pages were Fu's story. The majority of the rest were about the persecutions of Zhang Zhixin, a much talked-about political prisoner. A few pages point to a comfort woman raped by Japanese soldiers during the war, but died in the CR during those denunciation sessions.

    Another interesting case that turned up is a Beijing man that was jailed during the CR in 1969 for 'raping 21 young girls from 4 to 13 y/o' between his age of 10-15 y/o. He was sentenced to 8 years in prison and served the full term before his release in 1977, one year after CR ended. The court and the sentence looked ad hoc. He denies all the charges. He couldn't have his residence registry restored until 2008.
    http://news.qq.com/...

    In a similar story a Chongqing man finally had his 1971 rape conviction reversed in 2008.
    http://news.sohu.com/...

    Bottom line is, rape was a pretty serious offense even back in the CR days. Next to being 'counter-revolutionary' and the 'class enemy', it's a major crime. It's so serious and would spark so much outrage that it would be a slam dunk for the prosecution if they could pin rape on you. Not saying that the court procedure for other crimes was rigorous, but the number of mistrials based on invented rape charges tell you that it's not very likely a real rape case went untouched. Much less a real gang rape case, with the victim being 10. And it's not like the rape was well covered, if we were to believe Fu's being called 'broken shoe'.

  •  If you don't believe that the clinic people (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Sharon Wraight

    and the rest would cover up a rape, you might want to read "A Heart for Freedom" by Ling Chai.

    Sometimes a very harsh mandatory sentence is exactly why people won't report a crime.

    Fry, don't be a hero! It's not covered by our health plan!

    by elfling on Tue Feb 12, 2013 at 02:23:34 PM PST

    •  Ling Chai was known to have lied (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      hqc, Buhui, hailanzhiguang

      This is what famous rock singer, another Tiananmen leader Hou Dejian said of Ling Chai,
      "I keep thinking, do we have to create lies to fight our lying enemies? Isn't the truth strong enough?"

      And this is exactly the point that several of us have been trying to make in this discussion.

      You should read Standoff at Tiananmen by Eddie Cheng.

      The world is not black and white, unfortunately.

      •  I gotta say (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Sharon Wraight

        your argument gets less persuasive when you start to say pretty much every random author writing about difficult times lied.

        Fry, don't be a hero! It's not covered by our health plan!

        by elfling on Tue Feb 12, 2013 at 11:19:07 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Ling Chai is not a random author (0+ / 0-)

          Her lying is well-documented in the PBS documentory "Tiananmen" produced by Carmen Hindon.

          The frustration Chinese Americans have with the mainstream media and people like you, is that when we tell the truth, you choose not to believe. You don't even bother to check the sources that we provide. If you read the book by Eddie Chen that I provided, you would know I'm not just making things up.

          •  Correction: The documentary is (0+ / 0-)

            The Gate of Heavenly Peace, produced by Richard Gordon and Carma Hinton.

            Carmen Hinton was a different person.

          •  I will do some reading (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Sharon Wraight

            but I can't help but point out that you haven't read the books you're critical of.

            Fry, don't be a hero! It's not covered by our health plan!

            by elfling on Wed Feb 13, 2013 at 07:20:19 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  I have, if you read my previous diaries (0+ / 0-)

              You will see that my criticism since the third diary of this series has been based on the text from her book.

              As for Ling Chai, there is enough records in the public, the verdict is already in - I trust PBS and Eddie Cheng, so there is no need for me to dig any deeper.

              I find the kind of quick judgment you and others are eager to apply to me and my fellow Chinese Americans very offensive.

              •  Questions are how we learn (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Sharon Wraight

                That people ask them shows you have piqued their interest. It's up to you how you answer them.

                No one here will take any diarist's words at face value. It's not personal.

                Fry, don't be a hero! It's not covered by our health plan!

                by elfling on Wed Feb 13, 2013 at 10:22:32 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  Ok, point taken (0+ / 0-)

                  I'm not a journalist. Only doing this out of a sense of community. At least a few major parts such as her life in Shanghai can be simply verified to be false by her own words. There is not much more I can do if you still don't believe the evidence directly quoted from the book.

                  PS. You are welcome to take a look at my new diary.

                •  Could you help me with another user (0+ / 0-)

                  maliciously disclosed my real identity in my new diary. I've taken the new diary offline until you can do something about it. I filed help request but so far have not received any response.

                  The diary is
                  http://www.dailykos.com/...
                  and the offending user is bontemps2012

                  If this is how they can intimidate people into silence, I don't think dkos should allow it.

                  Thanks.

    •  As for what really happened during the (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      hqc, Buhui

      Cultural Revolution, everyone who lived through that period can tell you that what Ping Fu described, including the gang rape, did not fit the period.

      I'm not a historian so I cannot tell you exactly what is the difference in the understanding between you and me that makes such a huge gap in expectation. But I am certainly not alone on this. The criticism of Ping Fu's stories is shockingly uniform among Chinese Americans.

      •  I don't know any cultures (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Sharon Wraight

        that haven't had a problem with rape.

        It would be surprising - shocking - if China was the only country in the world where rapes with multiple perpetrators did not occur.

        It is, however, not something people discuss at cocktail parties... sometimes not even something they tell close acquaintances. Another thing all cultures seem to have in common.

        Fry, don't be a hero! It's not covered by our health plan!

        by elfling on Tue Feb 12, 2013 at 11:14:07 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  You are setting up a different strawman (0+ / 0-)

          No one is saying that rap or gang rap didn't happen in China. The gang rape described in Ping Fu's book did not fit the time and place. It could happen in 1990's China, but not in 1968. Cultural Revolution was a very unique thing. The only western history that would come close to it would be the Reign of Terror during the French Revolution. But even that was not anywhere close to the Cultural Revolution.

          You cannot compare it to the Bay Area in any period. I lived in the Bay Area for many years.

          And cocktail parties? Those things were not possible during the Cultural Revolution either.

          You have to imagine what it is like to not have any personal freedom whatsoever, and living under a constant fear. If you have not experienced that, you won't understand what we are talking about.

        •  What's ironic is (0+ / 0-)

          that as you said, rape was not something people discuss at cocktail parties, even though there were no cocktail parties or anything equivalent to that in terms of social interaction during the Cultural Revolution. Yet Ping Fu's rape story was widely known in her social circle according to the book, and people called her "broken shoe". That just did not fit the time nor the situation!

      •  "Does not fit the period" (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Sharon Wraight

        I live in the north bay area of California, well known as a liberal bastion of freedom and hippies and whatever else. Certainly a democracy with far more openness and journalistic freedom than has been the case in China for the last hundred years.

        And yet, in this region, Jim Jones built his flock, had complete control over the District Attorney and the local newspaper. He molested children, threatened people with guns, and probably raped a few women too, and was never prosecuted or charged. People were terrified, and the authorities would not act against him. This was 1975. In California. Governor Jerry Brown and famed crusader Harvey Milk attended gala dinners in his honor. The Bay Area reporter who tried to lift the veil was silenced.

        And then, finally, Jones took his flock to Guyana, ended up shooting a congressman and three reporters who came to investigate him, and then killed entire remaining flock of 909 people, even the children, with a poisoned drink.

        It all happened. But it does not fit the period, nor the locale.

        Fry, don't be a hero! It's not covered by our health plan!

        by elfling on Tue Feb 12, 2013 at 11:31:11 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  No, actually Jones (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Buhui

          fit the period and the locale perfectly.

          When people are free to believe in anything, there are always those who will follow the crazies and go off the cliff.

          You have to imagine how it is when people are not free. Can you imagine what it is like? That's your problem.

        •  In fact, I find that liberals are particularly (0+ / 0-)

          gullible when it comes to exotic religious leaders. Jerry Brown apparently was no exception.

          Liberals tend to be against established religious extremists, such as the Christian right. But they have a special kind feeling for exotic religions like Buddhism or Falun Gong or Jim Jones. They don't understand that extremist religions in any culture is evil. Ping Fu is exploiting exactly this soft spot in your heart, and you are all falling for it.

    •  It is not just clinic people (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      hqc

      Fu described in her book that Zhang (a character) started to spread the word "broken shoe" after the rape incidence. So, clinic people + Zhang + 8 teen age rapists + whomever "rumor" reached, the probability of "cover-up" collectively by so many people is infinitesimal small. Even IF the crime was kept secrete for a while, it would almost definitely be revealed in 1983 when many less guilty ones (just have sex with more than 1-2 girls) could get a death penalty. I remember in late 70s, a neighbor doctor cut his throat at home and we were all scared to death. His problems was that he got caught sleeping with a few women, the Party criticized him (he was also a party member) by endless conversations, warning him what could happen to him. He was rescued but disabled since.

      I didn't read Chai Ling's book and not sure if I will. During the Tianmen Square event, I was in the US. My knowledge about that was mostly from Ted Kopple who remains to be my favor journalist to this day. A few times I phoned my mamma in Shanghai and was told she and my sisters (then a college student) were doing their best supporting students in Beijing. I do not know when or whether the current government will address this issue honestly, but I hope this day will come soon.

    •  about Chinese harsh sentence (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      hqc

      One unique Chinese style law enforcement was to make people fear about covering up others. Not reporting a crime was a crime. If the father commit a crime, the family shares the blame. In ancient China, family included all three generations. The horror behind dare-not to cover up is even more disturbing than cover-up itself.

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