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Yesterday LA Times ran a human interest story. "LAPD will give new truck to women shot by officers." Sounds lovely.

Of course, LAPD would want to keep that dirty, moth-eaten old truck... the one they shot a couple zillion times last Friday. Getting additional photos could prove difficult. Forensic analysis of the tailgate and driver side rear window ?????

LAPD moved immediately to get legal hands on the evidence.

Sign on the dotted line, Margie Carranza and Emma Hernandez ??? Maybe. But before you sign -- allowing blue truck to meet black crusher -- please have your supporters contrast the originals that go with these two images and have a look at the tailgate.

FIRST:

Image # 1 -- empty Toyota Tacoma, secured crime scene

LAPD - truck image # 1 - light blue

-- http://timelines.latimes.com/...

SECOND:

Later LA Times got Image # 2 -- empty Toyota Tacoma, secured and tagged crime scene

LAPD - truck image # 2 - light blue

-- http://www.latimes.com/...

No CGI. Both are cropped/recopied LA Times photos.

These are not the originals. They are cropped and limited to 100K max to make life easier for DKOS downloaders. In real life Image # 1 is excellent.

Count the bullet holes and tagged bullet holes in that tailgate.

The white squares in Image # 2 are evidence tags, mostly placed over bullet holes.

Working from Internet "originals" gets only so far. These results are not certain. There can be errors, here. We will not for sure what happened until close-in images become available during this coming work week.

We get to an extra dozen holes looking at the cruiser window area, then stopped counting. Six holes went to eighteen holes. The driver-side rear window also looks to have taken additional damage in the form of bullet or buck shot holes.

Based on this photographic evidence, LAPD officers inflicted a cosmetic fusillade on this truck after Margie and Emma had been transported to hospital.

This would not the first instance of additional gunfire at a crime scene being used to obscure evidence of police wrong doing.

Will we see an investigation for charges under California Title 8 related to hazardous discharges of firearms? Any discharges after the crime scene was secured would qualify.

Based on a conservative read of these images, someone blasted the truck again after the scene was secured. Many of those bullets would have traveled substantial distances before they stopped.

Los Angeles pays a lot of money each year for the salaries of police executives. Their basic job is to select, train and manage LAPD police officers. What is going on out there ???

This Gang of Seven in Torrance can't shoot straight. Look at the truck.

Their pistols should have "red dot" laser sights. Assuming these guys really are uniformed officers, this incident presents a "Cheney" level of shooting without aiming. They spray the neighborhood with gunfire.

-- "Criminal negligence refers to a mental state of disregarding known or obvious risks to human life and safety."

-- "Reckless endangerment: the offense of recklessly engaging in conduct that creates a substantial risk of serious physical injury or death to another person. A misdemeanor but sometimes rises to a felony, as when a deadly weapon is involved."

Take out a loaded 9mm in a city and pull the trigger. You just got there.

One more legal question: any chance that this truck was sitting in a School Zone ??? California has special legal tools for charging criminals who discharge firearms in or near to schools.

Of course we don't expect anything to happen. This "cosmetic fusillade" will not be investigated.

LAPD management practices would be investigated. Police officers would have to testify under oath. Deposition testimony would be memorialized.

LAPD apparently covered up the crime that Dorner reported -- an LAPD thug kicked a handcuffed prisoner in the head. Covering up this Gang of Seven blasting an innocent Toyota Tacoma ain't nothing compared to that.

Big whoop!

No strings attached, LAPD want to give the Margie and Emma a new truck ! You betcha.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Thanks for the brief trip to the Recommended list !!

Subject matter here is for specialists in police procedure and evidence. It's a boon that people took a look at it.

There are also lessons, here, somewhere... at balancing stubbornness and evidence evaluation. The images above are in the much-worse-for-wear category from web publication and getting copied for use at DKOS. Yet no one asked to see the originals ! (OMG. Gosh... &^%^.)
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Excellent article on this attack and other LAPD attacks on civilians during the Dorner crisis:

LAPD vs. Hispanic women delivering newspapers

The money quote:

Glen T. Jonas, the attorney representing the women, said the police officers gave “no commands, no instructions and no opportunity to surrender” before opening fire. He described a terrifying encounter in which the pair were in the early part of their delivery route through several South Bay communities. Hernandez was in the back seat handing papers to her daughter, who was driving. Carranza would briefly slow the truck to throw papers on driveways and front walks.
This Gang of Seven in Torrance missed seeing Margie toss her newspapers.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Advice also comes in that the Seven left the scene before dawn. That means that one of them would have had to return to the scene later, if one of the Seven carried out this "cosmetic fusillade."

Evidence, so far, indicates that evidence tampering did happen at the scene and prior to CSI tagging.

So that means a specialist at such cover ups would have (more likely) been the shooter. And that's getting to overt symptoms of paranoia, imagining a strange extra-legal team/group/organization that does illegal acts for The Powers That Be -- except that's how Los Angeles has worked for 80 years. Tampering with reality is what the town does for a living!

If it's not broken, don't fix it !!
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Originally posted to bontemps2012 on Sun Feb 10, 2013 at 07:38 AM PST.

Also republished by Police Accountability Group.

Poll

LAPD has a shiny new truck for Margie and Emma !!

5%4 votes
3%3 votes
0%0 votes
1%1 votes
16%13 votes
6%5 votes
21%17 votes
3%3 votes
41%32 votes

| 78 votes | Vote | Results

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Comment Preferences

  •  Tip Jar (20+ / 7-)

    "Have you left no sense of decency, sir, at long last?" Army Attorney to Sen. McCarthy, 1954. "We have done nothing to be ashamed of. We have nothing to apologize for." NRA 12/14/2012.

    by bontemps2012 on Sun Feb 10, 2013 at 07:38:07 AM PST

  •  I read several (8+ / 0-)

    lengthy articles about the manhunt that contained a lot of details but excluded mentioning this.

  •  The LAPD is an evil organization (6+ / 0-)

    They created C. dormer by being so racist.  They have blood on their hands.

    •  Bullshit. Dorner is a malignant narciscisst... (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      bontemps2012, edrie, Mike S

      like other serial killers.  He was also a screwup who couldn't do his job correctly and when his training officer was going to give him a bad report, he made up an excessive use of force incident to try and discredit him.

      Unfortunately for him, there several civilian witnesses who saw the whole event and they testified that the training officer did not kick the suspect and, in fact, wasn't close enough to kick the man.

      Dorner is a liar and there is evidence going back years that proves it.

      •  furthermore, dorner is a murderer. (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        OldSoldier99, bontemps2012

        he HAS no credibility for WHY he committed blatant and deliberate murder of those he TARGETED.

        there is no excuse.  none. nada.

        trying to say the lapd is bad, therefore, they "made" dorner is offensive and wrong.

        rule #1:  don't make excuses for cold-blooded murderers.
        rule #2:  re-read rule number one.

        EdriesShop Is it kind? is it true? is it necessary?

        by edrie on Sun Feb 10, 2013 at 03:07:30 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  Wrong, wrong, wrong. (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Progressif

        READ the "manifesto" and supporting documents (and not some sensationalist reporter's blatherings).  Everything you've said is incorrect.  I'm not even going to bother rebutting each claim as you show no inkling whatsoever of even caring about what the actual facts are.  And btw, there's no such thing as a "malignant" narcissist.

        Dorner is wrong to be murdering innocent people, but his rage is justified after what was done to him.  

        His training officer was a female, btw, Teresa Evans; you missed getting even one of the most basic facts correct.  

        "Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity, and I am not sure about the universe." -- Albert Einstein

        by Neuroptimalian on Sun Feb 10, 2013 at 07:26:49 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  One correction for Neuroptimalian: (0+ / 0-)

          "Malignant Narcissism" has been an established, well-defined disorder since the early days of DSM publication. These are very dangerous people, including for murder, though paranoid schizophrenics far outnumber them for rampage mass murders.

          One more correction for KevinNYC and edrie and friends:

          Dorner could be the Devil himself, but that is a weak ad hominem argument where you are trying to defend LAPD for shooting up this truck carrying Margie Carranza, 47, and Emma Hernandez, 71.

          Ad hominem arguments always present a slippery slope temptation, together with presenting a rather poor filter for evidence selection, by their construction.

          "Have you left no sense of decency, sir, at long last?" Army Attorney to Sen. McCarthy, 1954. "We have done nothing to be ashamed of. We have nothing to apologize for." NRA 12/14/2012.

          by bontemps2012 on Mon Feb 11, 2013 at 02:53:25 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Well, let's see ... (0+ / 0-)

            the two officers who shot up the truck knew that Dorner was looking to kill police officers, had successfully killed officers and their family members, and had reportedly been seen in their area just minutes earlier.  Now, coming down the street they see a pickup truck (which Dorner was reportedly driving); it's still dark, so they can't make out the color of the vehicle or tell anything about the occupants.  The truck is driving slowly, on the wrong side of the road, and with its headlights off.  

            What would YOUR first thought be?

            The officers were, obviously, mistaken, and did not handle the situation in a way that was guaranteed to avoid injury to innocent people.  But not knowing the exact circumstances (placement and speed of vehicles, for example) we cannot know what they should have done.  However, the pickup driver contributed to the situation by driving without headlights, so she won't be getting the cash windfall some might imagine.

            "Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity, and I am not sure about the universe." -- Albert Einstein

            by Neuroptimalian on Mon Feb 11, 2013 at 11:41:36 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  Since Margie was tossing out newspapers (0+ / 0-)

              and there are street lights on that block, you are suggesting that they were blind ???

              And 6 of the 7 are what LAPD says were the shooters. Not 2.

              Newspaper delivery people are covered by specific statutes that protect public service operations. She was entirely within California law for her profession at that time of night.

              Hopefully you have no connection with preparing cases for depositions or for court.

              "Have you left no sense of decency, sir, at long last?" Army Attorney to Sen. McCarthy, 1954. "We have done nothing to be ashamed of. We have nothing to apologize for." NRA 12/14/2012.

              by bontemps2012 on Mon Feb 11, 2013 at 03:37:50 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

  •  This is probably nothing. (11+ / 0-)

    Difference in camera resolution, lighting, and focus.

    Please note that I am not justifying this obviously murderous fusillade.

  •  I'm seeing paper markers, not bullet holes. (14+ / 0-)

    I'm not seeing a bunch of extra bullet holes. It looks to me like each bullet hole has been marked with a numbered piece of paper or tape, so they can be counted.

    Also notice the little numbered stands on the ground near the wheel, indicating bullets or something on the pavement. Again, they are just recording the location of everything and making sure it's counted.

    I don't see any evidence of evidence tampering, just additional crime-scene record keeping.

  •  I'm not following (11+ / 0-)

    whatever your point is about the two different images of the truck. And I'm not sure I understand your claim that the LAPD shot the truck after the two women weren't in it any longer....

    I usually abhor & eschew amateur internet photography sleuthing, but it looks to me like those two different images were shot at different times under slightly different lighting conditions and possibly different cameras. I don't really see that anything material has changed, other than the processing of the scene that the detectives are doing.

    I fully agree, however, that the women should expect to get a lot more from LAPD than just a new truck.

    •  Look through the window of the cruiser. (0+ / 0-)

      Count holes.

      Image # 1 was taken with a first rate camera and great lighting.

      If anything, the less advantageous optics of Image # 2 would obscure details. You would see fewer bullet holes.

      That is the opposite of what happens. The later # 2 pic has a dozen more bullet holes, at least.

      There is no "theory" here. Any Fourth Grader can count bullet holes.

      The problems in the kids' book "Where's Waldo" are a 1,000 times more difficult.

      "Have you left no sense of decency, sir, at long last?" Army Attorney to Sen. McCarthy, 1954. "We have done nothing to be ashamed of. We have nothing to apologize for." NRA 12/14/2012.

      by bontemps2012 on Sun Feb 10, 2013 at 08:28:38 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  You are not counting holes, but tags. (6+ / 0-)

        You are counting holes plus paper tags right above each hole. Look at the numbers on the pavement right next to the wheel. They are tagging all the bullet marks, counting them, and then probably a photographer will get a close-up of each one.

        •  They tag bullet holes. (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          cotterperson, notrouble

          Count tags, you're counting bullet holes.

          The alternative is counting buck shot hits. At anything like close range it's not going to look like that.

          Quibbling tags and holes makes no sense.

          D'oh.

          "Have you left no sense of decency, sir, at long last?" Army Attorney to Sen. McCarthy, 1954. "We have done nothing to be ashamed of. We have nothing to apologize for." NRA 12/14/2012.

          by bontemps2012 on Sun Feb 10, 2013 at 08:54:52 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

      •  Bullet holes are not square! (5+ / 0-)

        Look closely at the extra marks. Each one is square, and directly above an existing round hole. Those are paper tape, not new bullet holes.

        •  Bullet holes are tagged. (0+ / 0-)

          Count large tags = count bullet holes.

          "Have you left no sense of decency, sir, at long last?" Army Attorney to Sen. McCarthy, 1954. "We have done nothing to be ashamed of. We have nothing to apologize for." NRA 12/14/2012.

          by bontemps2012 on Sun Feb 10, 2013 at 09:17:14 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

      •  Amazing how people can see what they want (7+ / 0-)

        to see and believe.  The mind is complex organ.

        Never argue with an idiot. They will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.

        by thestructureguy on Sun Feb 10, 2013 at 08:38:38 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  in fact, I did just that (5+ / 0-)

        I'm not seeing whatever you think you're seeing. Notice the position of the tailgate handle on the pickup....obscured by the cruiser door in one photo, visible in another. The two photos are from nearly, but not precisely, the same spot.

        And what exactly do you know about "optics?" Do you have any qualifications to do this kind of analysis? I'm guessing that you don't.

        I have a pretty low opinion of the LAPD, but I don't think they're that dumb. I'm not sure what they would have to gain by firing additional shots into a truck in the middle of a residential street where everyone can see them.

        I think you're fooling yourself.

        •  LAPD, collectively are not dumb. (0+ / 0-)

          The guys who shot up Margie and Emma with zero for probable cause, you betcha.

          Note also that the four tires on this Toyota Tacoma are still fully inflated. These geniuses had shotguns and they couldn't take out one tire.

          "Have you left no sense of decency, sir, at long last?" Army Attorney to Sen. McCarthy, 1954. "We have done nothing to be ashamed of. We have nothing to apologize for." NRA 12/14/2012.

          by bontemps2012 on Sun Feb 10, 2013 at 02:30:40 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  That's a lot of words, (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            bontemps2012

            not ONE of which addressed the comment you're responding to.

            Give us just ONE good example of what the cops had to gain by putting more bullets in the truck.

            "Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity, and I am not sure about the universe." -- Albert Einstein

            by Neuroptimalian on Sun Feb 10, 2013 at 07:41:40 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  Obscuring the firing pattern. (0+ / 0-)

              They shot up the passenger side of the truck, barely going after the driver.

              Look, you have to know they were in panic mode: they didn't shoot out the tires.

              They didn't hit one tire.

              Could they get any worse?

              "Have you left no sense of decency, sir, at long last?" Army Attorney to Sen. McCarthy, 1954. "We have done nothing to be ashamed of. We have nothing to apologize for." NRA 12/14/2012.

              by bontemps2012 on Mon Feb 11, 2013 at 03:05:55 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

      •  The 2nd picture is obviously higher resolution (6+ / 0-)

        look at the diagonals of the trunk window frame. See how they're kinda blocky in the first picture? That's pixelation - indication of a low-res picture. Try to read text in the 2 pics, eg the "Tacoma" on the truck or the "Crimestoppers" bumpersticker on the police car.

        There are plenty of legitimate discussions to be had about this issue, but this is ridiculous. It's a distraction from those legitimate discussions, and undermines DK's credibility.

        •  "Higher resolution" is an artifact (0+ / 0-)

          of web publishing for these copies.

          The original for Image # 1 is crystal clear, well lighted, and high resolution.

          "Have you left no sense of decency, sir, at long last?" Army Attorney to Sen. McCarthy, 1954. "We have done nothing to be ashamed of. We have nothing to apologize for." NRA 12/14/2012.

          by bontemps2012 on Sun Feb 10, 2013 at 10:07:59 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

  •  Yep muddle up the scene with too many rounds to (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    bontemps2012

    do a thorough job.

    "Til you're so fucking crazy you can't follow their rules" John Lennon - Working Class Hero

    by Horace Boothroyd III on Sun Feb 10, 2013 at 08:15:50 AM PST

  •  Wouldn't someone in the neighborhood (6+ / 0-)

    have noticed a second round of gunfire? I'm sure the media talked to people that heard the shots. Are they in on the conspiracy?

    Signature (this will be attached to your comments):

    by Groucho Marxist on Sun Feb 10, 2013 at 08:22:47 AM PST

    •  Good idea. There's no "conspiracy." (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Groucho Marxist

      No one is investigating this mess in Torrance. It embarrasses LAPD at a point where this guy Christopher Dorner has gone into madness and is murdering them and their families.

      Nobody is out canvassing Torrance. Really, nobody.

      Better yet, when this does get investigation, the aim should be to get a cell phone recording of the pattern of fire. Or a video of the whole sequence.

      "Have you left no sense of decency, sir, at long last?" Army Attorney to Sen. McCarthy, 1954. "We have done nothing to be ashamed of. We have nothing to apologize for." NRA 12/14/2012.

      by bontemps2012 on Sun Feb 10, 2013 at 09:00:01 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  I'm only talking about your theory that (6+ / 0-)

        the police fired more shots into the truck after the initial shooting.

        If they did, there would be plenty of witnesses. Or with all those shots and sirens and lights no one bothered to look outside to see what was going on? If anyone saw the cops shooting the truck a second time, don't you think they might mention it to a reporter when they were interviewed?

        Signature (this will be attached to your comments):

        by Groucho Marxist on Sun Feb 10, 2013 at 09:07:33 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  It's a solid objection. (0+ / 0-)

          But the physical evidence goes the other way.

          Also, 10 seconds and a silencer aren't that hard to come by.

          With Emma going out on a stretcher, what else?

          "Have you left no sense of decency, sir, at long last?" Army Attorney to Sen. McCarthy, 1954. "We have done nothing to be ashamed of. We have nothing to apologize for." NRA 12/14/2012.

          by bontemps2012 on Sun Feb 10, 2013 at 10:15:56 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Think about it. (4+ / 0-)

            Like I said in a previous comment, the second round you're suggesting would have had to happen in the daylight -- a full two+ hours after the initial barrage.

            By then, the neighborhood was swarming with news camera and choppers.  Do you really think the LAPD would decide to shoot up the truck again, and if they did, there would be some video evidence.

            •  No. Didn't happen. No "swarm" even (0+ / 0-)

              after the truck was removed many hours later.

              The public was advised from the start that this was related to Dorner. A sniper.

              "Have you left no sense of decency, sir, at long last?" Army Attorney to Sen. McCarthy, 1954. "We have done nothing to be ashamed of. We have nothing to apologize for." NRA 12/14/2012.

              by bontemps2012 on Mon Feb 11, 2013 at 03:09:41 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

        •  No sirens (0+ / 0-)

          After the shooting, there were no sirens.

  •  It's not personal. (13+ / 0-)

    I've HR'd  your tip jar because I believe:

    1.  Your diary is irresponsible in it's conjecture and speculation

    2.  You are making very serious charges of a conspiratorial nature

    3.  It is the sort of diary that makes DKos look silly as an information resource

    I'm prepared to take my lumps should I be proven wrong.

    "The most potent weapon in the hands of the oppressor is the mind of the oppressed." ~ Steven Biko

    by Marjmar on Sun Feb 10, 2013 at 08:43:54 AM PST

    •  ditto (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      erratic, notrouble, OldSoldier99

      Signature (this will be attached to your comments):

      by Groucho Marxist on Sun Feb 10, 2013 at 08:49:32 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Try being evidence-driven. (0+ / 0-)

        Count bullet holes.

        Count evidence tags over bullet holes, as taken later.

        Six NOT eighteen.

        And yes, there was motive for messing up the truck. This group of officers fired many more bullets at the passenger than at the driver.

        The evidence was changed.

        "Have you left no sense of decency, sir, at long last?" Army Attorney to Sen. McCarthy, 1954. "We have done nothing to be ashamed of. We have nothing to apologize for." NRA 12/14/2012.

        by bontemps2012 on Sun Feb 10, 2013 at 09:25:20 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  You're simply wrong. (3+ / 0-)

          You've made an error.

          It happens and admitting as much would be the better path.

          At the very least...It may be best to pull the diary until you have something more than highly questionable "photo evidence."

          Fin.

          "The most potent weapon in the hands of the oppressor is the mind of the oppressed." ~ Steven Biko

          by Marjmar on Sun Feb 10, 2013 at 12:22:24 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Mabye. Anything is possible. (0+ / 0-)

            I've seen police go a lot further than this to tamper with evidence.

            With crooks you expect it.

            "Have you left no sense of decency, sir, at long last?" Army Attorney to Sen. McCarthy, 1954. "We have done nothing to be ashamed of. We have nothing to apologize for." NRA 12/14/2012.

            by bontemps2012 on Sun Feb 10, 2013 at 02:34:27 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

  •  I count 10 hits on the tailgate in pic 1 (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    bontemps2012

    and 24 in the second pic.  Anyone else try a count?

    •  The 6/18 count goes to the area (0+ / 0-)

      inside the cruiser door's window.

      These images are limited to 100K in line with an ancient request here at DKOS.

      The originals are better and what LA Times has are much better. By far.

      "Have you left no sense of decency, sir, at long last?" Army Attorney to Sen. McCarthy, 1954. "We have done nothing to be ashamed of. We have nothing to apologize for." NRA 12/14/2012.

      by bontemps2012 on Sun Feb 10, 2013 at 10:18:25 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  Those ladies darn sure need to hire a (7+ / 0-)

    lawyer before accepting that new truck.  You can be certain the cops will try to get them to sign a release of liability as a condition for receiving the new truck.

    •  Bingo ! (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Timaeus

      Or a the very least to surrender this Toyota Tacoma.

      "Have you left no sense of decency, sir, at long last?" Army Attorney to Sen. McCarthy, 1954. "We have done nothing to be ashamed of. We have nothing to apologize for." NRA 12/14/2012.

      by bontemps2012 on Sun Feb 10, 2013 at 09:22:03 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  Please undig your heels and delete this. (8+ / 0-)

    The cops who engaged in this attempted execution should never be allowed to possess a firearm again, either as police officers or as civilians.

    That being said, there is absolutely no evidence in these photos of a second fusillade of bullets being fired after the scene was secured.

    I'm not a ballistics expert, but I'm quite certain bullets don't make square holes when impacting sheet metal.

    Fuck Harry Reid. Too blunt? Fine. Fuck Harry Reid. After months of lying his ass off he willfully killed filibuster reform. "DINO" is too complimentary a descriptor. Fuck him.

    by WisePiper on Sun Feb 10, 2013 at 08:45:45 AM PST

    •  You are seeing tags over bullet holes. (0+ / 0-)

      Count tags. You are counting the underlying bullet holes in image # 2.

      Of course there was motive to mess up the scene. They had fired many more rounds at the passenger, originally.

      "Have you left no sense of decency, sir, at long last?" Army Attorney to Sen. McCarthy, 1954. "We have done nothing to be ashamed of. We have nothing to apologize for." NRA 12/14/2012.

      by bontemps2012 on Sun Feb 10, 2013 at 09:21:04 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  The tags are next to the bullet holes. (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        bontemps2012, OldSoldier99

        If your whole premice is that the pictures show a different number of bullet holes and the tags are over the bullet holes than the issue here is that you need glasses. The second picture shows bullet holes AND tags so if you can't make that out you obviously have vision problems.

        Most of the people taking a hard line against us are firmly convinced that they are the last defenders of civilization... The last stronghold of mother, God, home and apple pie and they're full of shit! David Crosby, Journey Thru the Past.

        by Mike S on Sun Feb 10, 2013 at 12:28:15 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  See ya during the week. (0+ / 0-)

          The close-in photos should be available.

          "Have you left no sense of decency, sir, at long last?" Army Attorney to Sen. McCarthy, 1954. "We have done nothing to be ashamed of. We have nothing to apologize for." NRA 12/14/2012.

          by bontemps2012 on Sun Feb 10, 2013 at 02:35:32 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  At which point you (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            bontemps2012, Neuroptimalian

            will claim vindication because they were obviously faked.

            It's pathetic.

            Most of the people taking a hard line against us are firmly convinced that they are the last defenders of civilization... The last stronghold of mother, God, home and apple pie and they're full of shit! David Crosby, Journey Thru the Past.

            by Mike S on Sun Feb 10, 2013 at 03:06:02 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  Don't be silly. (0+ / 0-)

              Tampering with evidence is not a common thing. But it happens.

              We'll see, most likely during the week.

              "Have you left no sense of decency, sir, at long last?" Army Attorney to Sen. McCarthy, 1954. "We have done nothing to be ashamed of. We have nothing to apologize for." NRA 12/14/2012.

              by bontemps2012 on Sun Feb 10, 2013 at 05:05:39 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

    •  Possibly. But I do not see how (0+ / 0-)

      the 8 white areas inside the cruiser window in Image # 1 become 22 white areas in the later shot from a very similar angle.

      Also, the "original" published Internet and pre-source non-Internet images are much better quality than these DKOS-friendly <100K images. JPEG loses something doing that translation.

      We will know more during the week.

      Also, email has a suggestion that altering the truck would not have been done by any of the original 7 LAPD officers. They were long gone from the scene.

      So that means the original 7 did not have the opportunity, barring a return after getting off shift.

      Does that indicated that it is less likely that evidence was altered, overall, yes indeed. Fewer hands, lower level of motivation.

      But if a cover-up shooting did happen, that leaves us with a management-level decision. And yet another example of LAPD using ad hoc specialists to carry out illegal acts.

      Considering LAPD over the last 80 years, don't bet your right kidney on it either way.

      "Have you left no sense of decency, sir, at long last?" Army Attorney to Sen. McCarthy, 1954. "We have done nothing to be ashamed of. We have nothing to apologize for." NRA 12/14/2012.

      by bontemps2012 on Mon Feb 11, 2013 at 03:27:27 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  Not going to HR but this is silly. The two photos (9+ / 0-)

    are of obvious different quality. If you compare the marker tape pieces from the 2nd photo to the 1st - you can make out the damage. Diarist really should delete this.

    if a habitat is flooded, the improvement for target fishes increases by an infinite percentage...because a habitat suitability index that is even a tiny fraction of 1 is still infinitely higher than zero, which is the suitability of dry land to fishes.

    by mrsgoo on Sun Feb 10, 2013 at 09:09:02 AM PST

  •  LMAO...stop with the nonsense... (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    OldSoldier99, thestructureguy

    If the L.A.P.D. would've shot that truck again, hell if they would have pulled their guns out again in that neighborhood, their heads would have been served on a plate...

    That's not some no resource slum, that's a pretty well heeled area....

    The L.A.P.D. make no mistake are a bunch of corropt criminals who do many wrongs...but let's not let our imagination get the best of us...

    •  And LAPD cops volunteer for homicide (0+ / 0-)

      charges, as could have happened if Emma had died.

      Wrecking evidence ??? Perish the thought.

      "Have you left no sense of decency, sir, at long last?" Army Attorney to Sen. McCarthy, 1954. "We have done nothing to be ashamed of. We have nothing to apologize for." NRA 12/14/2012.

      by bontemps2012 on Sun Feb 10, 2013 at 10:34:44 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  I don't get it (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Mike S, OldSoldier99, bontemps2012

      Wouldn't neighbors have heard it if the truck had been shot up later?  They only heard the initial ~100 shots.  Even with a silencer, they likely would have heard the bullets hitting it.

      Also, it was pitch black out when this happened.  The pictures show that if the truck was shot at a second time, it would have been in broad daylight, which indicates at least two hours would have lapsed.  By then, the scene was crawling with reporters.

      •  How would you know that? (0+ / 0-)

        "They only heard the initial ~100 shots."

        As of that afternoon no one had canvassed the neighborhood. The Dorner story was still being pushed out locally from LAPD.

        "Have you left no sense of decency, sir, at long last?" Army Attorney to Sen. McCarthy, 1954. "We have done nothing to be ashamed of. We have nothing to apologize for." NRA 12/14/2012.

        by bontemps2012 on Mon Feb 11, 2013 at 03:29:32 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

  •  I'm not seeing any additional holes (4+ / 0-)

    I am seeing a marking by each of the holes in the second photo. The photos are not at exactly the same angle so some parts of the vehicle are only visible in one photo.

    A conservative is a man with two perfectly good legs who, however, has never learned how to walk forward. Franklin D. Roosevelt

    by notrouble on Sun Feb 10, 2013 at 09:35:50 AM PST

    •  CIS tags go over bullet holes. (0+ / 0-)

      SOP.

      "Have you left no sense of decency, sir, at long last?" Army Attorney to Sen. McCarthy, 1954. "We have done nothing to be ashamed of. We have nothing to apologize for." NRA 12/14/2012.

      by bontemps2012 on Sun Feb 10, 2013 at 10:31:23 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Clearly not (4+ / 0-)

        If you look at the second photo you can see the additional "holes" are white rectangles with a black mark on them.

        Anyway, you do not cover the evidence you are labeling and photographing. Look here for a photo from an unrelated case in Georgia.

        A conservative is a man with two perfectly good legs who, however, has never learned how to walk forward. Franklin D. Roosevelt

        by notrouble on Sun Feb 10, 2013 at 10:42:19 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

    •  clearly (4+ / 0-)

      only the spots where the paint is blasted off in a circular pattern are actually bullet holes.  The other penetrations must have come from a death ray that the police don't want us to know about.

      the purpose of the second amendment is to promote a well-regulated militia, in the same sense that the purpose of the first amendment is to promote a well-informed electorate.

      by happymisanthropy on Sun Feb 10, 2013 at 10:45:14 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Shotgun pellets ? We won't till (0+ / 0-)

        close-in photos become available.

        If this has been tampered, wait for what the apologists have to say then....

        "Have you left no sense of decency, sir, at long last?" Army Attorney to Sen. McCarthy, 1954. "We have done nothing to be ashamed of. We have nothing to apologize for." NRA 12/14/2012.

        by bontemps2012 on Sun Feb 10, 2013 at 02:37:20 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

  •  New Crime - Driving while in a Pick Up (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    bontemps2012, OldSoldier99

    Interesting article at FDL  .
    http://my.firedoglake.com/...

    -approaching Curmudgeonry with pleasure

    by Calfacon on Sun Feb 10, 2013 at 11:20:32 AM PST

  •  There is confusion here (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    bontemps2012

    from both diarist and commenters on which are holes and which are tags (and the truck is only half-tagged in the second photo). So try this...

    Scroll to the diary pictures so you can see the bit of panel immediately underneath the back window in both pictures at the same time. Notice that in photo 1 there are three bullet holes in that blue panel, one underneath each section of the back window. Now look at the same blue panel area in photo 2 (now with possibly 2 tags). There seems to be one tag next to the driver's side hole in the first picture. The other two holes are not tagged, but easily found. What's all that other stuff?

    There's much more visible paint damage in that area under the back window - driver's side and center panel - than in the first photo. Is this an angle issue?

    •  We'll know for sure, next week. (0+ / 0-)

      As matters stand there are several anomalies that could be produced by combinations of angle differences and lighting and the CSI tags.

      I don't see how the 8 hits/chips inside the cruiser-window in image # 1 get to be the 22 distinct white areas in Image # 2. (Those counts are gotten using photo enhancement from the best available versions of "originals.")

      Also, the driver side rear window presents similar mysteries.

      Amazing how people are so sure of themselves, working from these <100K copy-images. And none of the commenters asked to see the originals. Not one.

      Maybe that's the lesson to be learned from this diary -- the extent to which people prefer their own stubbornness to improving the quality of evidence. Not that I'm any less guilty of getting stuck defending what I see in the originals.

      "Have you left no sense of decency, sir, at long last?" Army Attorney to Sen. McCarthy, 1954. "We have done nothing to be ashamed of. We have nothing to apologize for." NRA 12/14/2012.

      by bontemps2012 on Sun Feb 10, 2013 at 02:08:04 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Because you don't want to. (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        bontemps2012, Neuroptimalian
        I don't see how the 8 hits/chips inside the cruiser-window in image # 1 get to be the 22 distinct white areas in Image # 2.
        You have been told time and again that there are tags and bullet holes. Bullet holes are round and tags are rectangular. Hell, magnify the picture in your browser and you can tell exactly why there are so many more marks on the car.

        You have also been told time and again that the shots are at different angles. Take a look at both pictures and how much of the truck the police car spotlight covers. If you can't see the change in the angle get your eyes checked.

        Both of these points are obvious to anyone who looks but you continue to deny it.

        Most of the people taking a hard line against us are firmly convinced that they are the last defenders of civilization... The last stronghold of mother, God, home and apple pie and they're full of shit! David Crosby, Journey Thru the Past.

        by Mike S on Sun Feb 10, 2013 at 02:30:26 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Mike S, dear heart, you may very well be right. (0+ / 0-)

          But more likely you earn Four Stars for stubbornness.

          These images are recopies of Internet published copies with limited resolution.

          You can barely see a damn thing.

          We will settle these issues when in-close images of the tailgate and driver side rear window become available.

          And by the way: this would be a long way from the first example of police using additional gunfire to obscure a crime scene.

          They fired on that truck with zero probable cause.

          "Have you left no sense of decency, sir, at long last?" Army Attorney to Sen. McCarthy, 1954. "We have done nothing to be ashamed of. We have nothing to apologize for." NRA 12/14/2012.

          by bontemps2012 on Sun Feb 10, 2013 at 03:39:15 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

      •  ... during the business week. (0+ / 0-)

        "Have you left no sense of decency, sir, at long last?" Army Attorney to Sen. McCarthy, 1954. "We have done nothing to be ashamed of. We have nothing to apologize for." NRA 12/14/2012.

        by bontemps2012 on Sun Feb 10, 2013 at 02:37:56 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

  •  That Fire Dog Lake article is a winner. (0+ / 0-)

    Attacking civilians has turned into LAPD madness in recent days. Margie and Emma are lucky to be alive. So are the other victims.

    LAPD vs. Hispanic women delivering newspapers

    It's a white guy going surfing. It's anybody going anywhere, kinda random.

    The comments are interesting. Wide range of responses, not so much the nit picking that attached to this piece.

    A quote from the gals' attorney from LA Times by way of FDL

    Glen T. Jonas, the attorney representing the women, said the police officers gave “no commands, no instructions and no opportunity to surrender” before opening fire. He described a terrifying encounter in which the pair were in the early part of their delivery route through several South Bay communities. Hernandez was in the back seat handing papers to her daughter, who was driving. Carranza would briefly slow the truck to throw papers on driveways and front walks.
    Damn.

    How could this Gang of Seven have missed seeing Margie toss her newspapers ????? You'd have to see her arm and she's no where near being a 200+ pound Black guy. Dorner is effing huge. That blunder indicates brain-dead panic and it's still crazy.

    "Have you left no sense of decency, sir, at long last?" Army Attorney to Sen. McCarthy, 1954. "We have done nothing to be ashamed of. We have nothing to apologize for." NRA 12/14/2012.

    by bontemps2012 on Mon Feb 11, 2013 at 03:44:25 AM PST

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