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Christopher Dorner is a canvas onto which we can project our national anxieties and obsessions. Christopher Dorner is racialized as an African American. He is gendered as a male. Christopher Dorner represents authority, conformity, and State power, as a (former) police officer. Those identities are intersectional.

For some, Christopher Dorner is a hero who dared to speak truth to power and rode roughshod over the LAPD and those he identified as his enemies. To them, Dorner has Eric Hobsbawn's "social banditry" flowing in his veins.

For others, he is a criminal who went "crazy" and offered up a manifesto like those "liberals" have a habit of doing. As with Trayvon Martin, what you see may largely be a function of where you sit politically, ideologically, and racially. Ultimately, Dorner is the object who represents the intermixing of several long-standing American cultural and historical narratives; he is a nexus, a focal point for the birth of many memes.

Dorner is the African-American, "hulking, 270-pound former college football player" who is armed and dangerous. He is the 21st century echo of the "giant negroes" who attacked "innocent" white people as heralded in sensationalistic American newspaper headlines in the late 19th and early to mid 20th centuries.

Some others would like to argue that he is Bigger Thomas or Tarantino's reimagined Django.

I would suggest that Dorner has little if anything in common with the former, Richard Wright's iconic character, except for being black and male.

Jamie Foxx's Django is more compelling. However, while the allusion is pithy and timely, Dorner is not fighting the white slaveocracy, living out a fairy tale slavery counter-factual, and willing to die (and kill) for the love of a good woman. Dorner and Django are both forces of vengeance; however, their goals are not the same. Those differences are not to be overlooked.

Is Christopher Dorner either a bad nigger or a badman, two of the classic archetypes in Black (American) literature and folklore?

I have no ready answer, as either formulation is compelling, while also being insufficient to capture Dorner's deeds and words. The bad nigger was a black person (usually male) who defied white authority, norms of black respectability, and did not care about the consequences. He usually was feared by the mass of black folks because we would be left to suffer for the consequences of his actions. Decent black folks were also the victims of his mischief, violence, and anti-social behavior.

The badman was just that, he was a "bad man." He was Stagolee or the Blues Man who did his own thing despite white racism and cowardly black folks who simply wanted us to be quiet to get along. The badman was a trickster figure who had the finest clothes, carried a pistol, enjoyed the prettiest women, and possessed the baddest car or horse. The badman was the king of the block--and dared someone to tell him otherwise.

Christopher Dorner is a "bad man" in the literal sense: he has killed, and is the target of a massive manhunt.

In the literary sense, Dorner is not a badman...yet. But, that is the power of cultural memory.

Perhaps, Christopher Dorner will be transformed through cultural memory and storytelling into a figure talked about for decades and centuries to come, with multiple versions of his tales and exploits, shaped by the griots and bards for their respective audiences?

While Dorner has many attributes that locate him firmly within Black (American) folklore, popular culture, and memory, I would argue that he is most accurately described as an Age of Obama version of The Spook Who Sat By the Door.

Penned by Sam Greenlee, The Spook Who Sat by the Door is an underground book (and then film) classic. The story focused on the exploits of Dan Freeman an African-American CIA agent who in an epiphanic moment came to realize that he was working for a corrupt and racist government. The main character then goes rogue, just as Dorner has done, and organizes a cadre of black nationalist freedom fighters to "take down the man." The Spook Who Sat by the Door was later remade as a film during the blaxploitation film cycle of the 1970s.

The Spook Who Sat by the Door would be caricaturized and mocked by many who saw it as "typical" "black paranoid" thinking born of the failed revolutionary dreaming of the 1960s and early 1970s. The Spook Who Sat by the Door would also be marginalized by its later association with blaxploitation--what some cultural critics have described as "degraded cinema."

The Spook Who Sat by the Door has endured as a book and a movie because it spoke to the realities of Cointelpro, police brutality, the CIA connection to the crack cocaine epidemic, Iran-Contra, the evils taught at places like The School of the Americas, and because it validated what many black and brown folks have long-known: the United States has historically operated in such a way that White Power and White Government are inseparable.

In total, Christopher Dorner is a Rorschach test. We will see in him what our life experiences, cognitive maps, and life worlds, have taught us about violence, trust, the State, racism, and the police. Irrespective of how individual members of the public perceive Christopher Dorner, institutional power sees him, quite correctly, as a threat.

He is a heretic. In the same way that The Church reserved special punishments for fallen priests and nuns, or how the Mafia and other such organizations deal with traitors, Dorner is going to be made to suffer.

In a similar example, more money is often spent apprehending bank robbers than was stolen in the heist. This occurs because the banking system cannot allow a person to escape because such a choice would be a sign of weakness. Consequently, such a short term cost benefit analysis would encourage more robberies in the long term.

Christopher Dorner dared to tell his version of the truth regarding the LAPD's history of corruption and racism. They do not like tattle tales and "snitches." Dorner is a threat because of his violent actions and the symbolic power of his words and deeds.

You can call him Django, Bigger Thomas, a badman, a bad nigger, or Dan Freeman. Regardless, Christopher Dorner is likely not going to live to tell many more tales. I would suspect that he knows such a fact already and has accepted it. This makes him all the more lethal. Wanted dead or alive, Christopher Dorner will have a life much longer than the 30 years he spent on terrestrial earth.

Originally posted to chaunceydevega on Mon Feb 11, 2013 at 01:00 PM PST.

Also republished by White Privilege Working Group and Barriers and Bridges.

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Comment Preferences

  •  And now they are talking of using drones (10+ / 0-)

    Will this be the first time a drone is used to kill a US citizen?  Who knows? At the rate we are going, doesn't seem like it will be long.

  •  One of the most lucid diaries and articles I have (25+ / 0-)

    seen about Dorner.  Thank you.  There is much truth in your analogy. The only statement I find fault with is:

    "In the same way that The Church reserved special punishments for fallen priests and nuns, or how the Mafia and other such organizations deal with traitors, Dorner is going to be made to suffer."

    Ah.  Seems to me that "fallen" pedophiles were rewarded with new assignments with more Church provided prey.  The Church did not make them suffer.  It protected them.

    Returning  to the Dorner story, my frustration (as a 60 year Angelino with numerous family member on LAPD and others terrified of it) is that this is not NYPD or San Francisco.  It is Los Angeles which has more than 50 year history of terrorizing the East and Southside people of color. This is not fantasy.  It is not hyperbole.  It if fact.  The current Chief's first presser on Dorner was amateur hour.  The firing of about a hundred volleys on unarmed,elderly Latinas for Driving while delivering newspapers? LAPD.  This story cannot be understood without the context of this particular police organization dating back to Chief Parker and its war on Blacks and Latinos.  Sleepy Lagoon (farce) trial, the use of force to displace three colonias for Dodger Stadium.  It is history.

  •  Why do we want to "make" him into anything? (15+ / 0-)

    He's a murderer and a thug, period.  Doesn't matter what his color is, what his size is, what his gender is.  Doesn't matter whether he was treated fairly or not.  Doesn't matter what "injustice" he claims to be trying to address.  He's killed three people who had nothing to do with this "injustice" so far.  We shouldn't be talking about him being any kind of hero or whatever anymore than the LAPD should be calling him a terrorist.

     He's nothing more than a murderer who happens to have much more knowledge about what to expect the police to do and is targeting the police and their families, thus creating much more fear in them than they've ever encountered before.  But he's a murderer, period, and let's leave it at that.  Let's not romanticize the murderer.

    "If you trust you are not critical; if you are critical you do not trust" by our own Dauphin

    by gustynpip on Mon Feb 11, 2013 at 01:28:31 PM PST

    •  Have to say I agree. (7+ / 0-)

      It does appear that he was mistreated and subjected to injustice. From the liberal perspective this is important to know, understand, and respond to. But from the liberal perspective with regards to his victims, his actions are completely indefensible.

      This is what separates liberalism from conservatism; the desire to understand why people do what they do in order to improve the human condition without excusing the unethical behavior of the individual.

      The most I am willing to agree with the author is that many are culpable in the deaths of these three people but Mr. Dormer bears the responsibility, assuming he is of sound mind.

    •  I will observe that there are some things worse (8+ / 0-)

      than death. The American fixation on death is not healthy. It perpetrates the notion that abuse, being a lesser evil, is OK.  Everybody dies. No-one has to be abused. And yet, we let that pass. Simple assault is a misdemeanor and has to be witnessed by law enforcement to be charged. Aggravated assault is a felony, if there is evidence of material and permanent harm.
      Why is it that we have to devise new categories to act against (child abuse, elder abuse, spouse abuse, sex abuse)? Why can't we just make any physical assault on another individual's bodily integrity a crime? Well, because then we couldn't insist on vaginal probes and urine samples, could we?
      Stop and frisk would not be allowed. Neither would paddling in the schools.

      We organize governments to deliver services and prevent abuse.

      by hannah on Mon Feb 11, 2013 at 02:20:00 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  LOL! Keep that in mind when you're facing a gun (3+ / 0-)

        someday.  Oh, being murdered isn't so bad when I could be abused instead.

        I suspect most of us would choose a life with abuse rather than to be murdered before we've had a chance to live our lives.  And how the fact that abuse might be occurring (probably is - definitely is) comes into play in any way, shape or form in downplaying the death of a young woman and her fiancee, the death of an officer, and the young trainee laying in the hospital in critical condition, I have no idea.

        How is this any different than the gun enthusiasts that claim that the number of deaths resulting from guns is just not important when compared with the critical right to own guns?  Suddenly, lives don't matter?

        Sure, we do tend to have a fetish for trying to pretend we can live forever.  But the murder of three people who had little chance to experience much of life hardly falls within that purview.

        "If you trust you are not critical; if you are critical you do not trust" by our own Dauphin

        by gustynpip on Mon Feb 11, 2013 at 02:43:41 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  How many people were killed in car crashes (4+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          AoT, poco, Dretutz, Larsstephens

          today? It's usually about one every fifteen minutes--a hundred a day. Never mind how many are maimed to become doctor fodder.
          Personally, I'd rather be dead than tortured.

          We organize governments to deliver services and prevent abuse.

          by hannah on Mon Feb 11, 2013 at 03:52:35 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Ah yes. Since so many were killed in car (0+ / 0-)

            crashes, the ones that were killed by guns don't matter.  

            It's so easy to say you'd rather be dead than be tortured.  But doesn't the degree of torture matter just a tad?  Doesn't whether the torture is psychological or physical matter?  Doesn't whether it will seriously maim you for life or not matter?  Would you really rather never see your family again, never see the blue sky or feel the sun or hear the waves lapping, never taste that favorite food or hear your favorite music?  

            The desire to survive is amazing.  We all want to cling to life, often even when others don't see anything worthwhile about that life.  When you look at all the people that have been tortured horribly, and I mean really horribly, how few of them have opted to commit suicide to stop it?  If you ever had a chance to ask people who have been tortured whether they wish they'd died instead, I doubt many would say yes.  

            I guess I find your statements a bit similar to my feelings when I was a teenager.  I'd look at old people and hope I never lived long enough to get like that.  I couldn't see anything they were getting out of their lives.  Then as I got closer to that and got to know these people as individuals, I realized that even if you can only see with a magnifying machine, the beauty of the colors and shapes you see with that machine make it worthwhile; even if you can't walk, seeing and spending time with the people you love while you're in a wheelchair makes it an acceptable alternative, even if you're laying in a bed and have to be turned by others and have others cleaning your bum and can only eat with a feeding tube, being able to talk to the people you love and have them hug you and kiss you and bring you their little offerings of gifts and knowing they care enough to do all this for you makes it worth living through.  

            "If you trust you are not critical; if you are critical you do not trust" by our own Dauphin

            by gustynpip on Mon Feb 11, 2013 at 04:59:16 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  We have veterans killing themselves every (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              awesumtenor

              day because they can't live with the fact that they tortured and killed innocent people on orders from above and now those who sent them to kill for no good reason are abandoning them. The veterans are choosing death over psychological torture.
              Why is suicide a crime? Because the state wants to claim sole jurisdiction over when individual persons die and when they live. That, btw, is what motivates the effort to eliminate the intentional termination of pregnancy by law. Controlling the beginning and end of life has always been a state objective since the founding of the U.S. Perhaps it's because the wanton destruction of the native population had to be justified in retrospect. More recently, subservience to the nation has been justified in the name of promoting human rights, but that, too, is a fraud. A state which intentionally kills human beings is not promoting human rights. It is announcing that life is conditioned on obedience and coerced obedience is abusive.

              We organize governments to deliver services and prevent abuse.

              by hannah on Tue Feb 12, 2013 at 03:55:50 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

    •  So then what's your opinion of John Brown? (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      RonV

      Or any other of a long history in the US of people who killed?

      Pretending that the act of murder makes you somehow special and completely outside of society is absurd and not held up by a look at history.

      He's nothing more than a murderer who happens to have much more knowledge about what to expect the police to do and is targeting the police and their families, thus creating much more fear in them than they've ever encountered before.  But he's a murderer, period, and let's leave it at that.  Let's not romanticize the murderer.
      You clearly aren't paying attention if you think that he's nothing more than a murderer.  Is the president just a murderer because he's responsible for the death of the children of insurgents in Afghanistan and elsewhere?  No, obviously not.  You can crow about what he is or is not all you want, but ignoring the fact that there are people out there who support Dorner doesn't make it not there.
      •  So who was Dorner trying to protect and (4+ / 0-)

        save, the way John Brown was trying?  He was on the LAPD for quite awhile and didn't have a problem with their activities until he lost his job.  When he killed the officer's daughter and her fiancee, did he do it to free prisoners who were being held unfairly?  No, he did it as revenge, pure and simple.  His statement was that since he hadn't gotten to have a family, he was taking the officer's away also.

        Because there are idiots out there supporting Dorner does not make it right, reasonable, rational, or sensible.  If people are so foolish as to support the actions of a selfish, cold blooded murderer and then compare him to someone like John Brown, I'm certainly not going to give them any kudos for it.  Let's at least let the real heros - the ones who took risks themselves and who were fighting for someone but their own selfish little selves and who had a determination to actually bring around change, rather than just to hurt someone they thought had hurt them, hold onto the real title of hero.  It's truly disgusting that anyone would dare to compare this man to John Brown!

        "If you trust you are not critical; if you are critical you do not trust" by our own Dauphin

        by gustynpip on Mon Feb 11, 2013 at 02:48:55 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  This is simply not true. (10+ / 0-)
          He was on the LAPD for quite awhile and didn't have a problem with their activities until he lost his job.
          Isn't that precisely why he lost his job?

          Maya Angelou: "Without courage, we cannot practice any other virtue with consistency. We can't be kind, true, merciful, generous, or honest."

          by JoanMar on Mon Feb 11, 2013 at 03:20:08 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

        •  Who? Seriously? (6+ / 0-)

          Are you not paying attention here?

          Do you have any fucking idea what the LAPD is like?  I'm guessing you have no clue what you're talking about.  He got fired for ratting out a fellow officer, and he's made perfectly clear that he knows he isn't going to come out of this alive.  Yet instead he's said he's going to fight what he, and many others, see as a horribly corrupt institution.  One that has resisted reform for decades.

          Are you speaking out this loudly about our slaughter of civilians overseas?

          •  So you honest to god think the LAPD being corrupt (0+ / 0-)

            makes murder of people who have nothing to do with the LAPD okay???  He ratted one officer out - maybe it was so bad he couldn't stomach it.  But he had to have turned a blind eye to a hell of a lot of it or he couldn't have lasted years in there if it's so corrupt - which I agree it is.  So yeah, I pretty much have a clue.

            He wouldn't have to worry about whether he'd come out alive if he hadn't killed  3 people and then had a hit list of another 50.  Right now, if he turned himself into the FBI, he'd come out alive.  Not happy, but alive.  It's pretty easy for someone to say they're not going to make it alive when they have no intention of making it alive.  He still has options.  I don't disagree that the LAPD is over reacting and chances are excellent that if they see him, it will be kill on sight.  But he's gotten some distance from there and I suspect has the ability to get even further.  Someone who has managed to evade arrest this long with this many officers searching for him, ready to kill, knows what he's doing and knows how to go about getting out alive.

            "If you trust you are not critical; if you are critical you do not trust" by our own Dauphin

            by gustynpip on Mon Feb 11, 2013 at 04:50:33 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  I don't think there's any way he comes out alive (0+ / 0-)

              now.  He'll get the death penalty if the cops don't kill him, which they almost certainly will, even if he were to try and turn himself in, which I really, really doubt will happen.  I certainly think that he believes he has no chance of making it out of this alive, which means he won't.

              So you honest to god think the LAPD being corrupt makes murder of people who have nothing to do with the LAPD okay???
              No, I think that there are a hell of a lot of people who are regularly harassed and/or attacked by the LAPD and if I was one of those people I'd probably have an easier time looking past the ugly side of this whole thing.  Make no mistake, there are plenty of people who are at the very least rooting for him to kill more LAPD officers because of the way they've treated people over the years.

              And yes, he lasted for years, and then couldn't take it anymore and reported someone and got kicked out for his efforts.

              What this boils down to is that a lot of people are sick of living in a country with a two tiered justice system, where bankers and cops and politicians get away with everything and us poor folks get screwed over and harassed by the police for nothing.  If you expect people to not root for the enemy of their enemy then you don't really understand how people work.

              Someone just posted a link on my facebook wall of a police officer shooting an unarmed man in the back, the very first comment was "Where's Dorner when you need him?"

              •  Oh god, I'm afraid your facebook wall belongs (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Darmok, Dr Swig Mcjigger

                on Redstate.  Honest to god, this type of thinking is just so warped, it's scary.   That facebook post is sick, pure and simple, and if we saw it posted on Redstate, we'd be horrified.

                So he tried to do the right thing and got kicked in the balls for it.  It happens.  He's not killing the cops - even if that could be justified, and It Can't.  He's killed people who had nothing to do with any of it.  And he didn't do it to get justice.  He did it because he was mad and feeling sorry for himself.   And because thought his own disappointment in life mattered more than the lives of other people.  He is not a hero.  He did this for himself and for no one else.

                "If you trust you are not critical; if you are critical you do not trust" by our own Dauphin

                by gustynpip on Mon Feb 11, 2013 at 05:11:27 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

  •  Interesting. (4+ / 0-)

    Other than how he was treated, which was important - I've never otherwise thought of his race until you brought it up.  I mean it was just a passing characteristic I maybe subconsciously noted - like he's big and bald and good-looking.

    Now that you bring it up - beyond how he was treated, the subject just doesn't hold my interest.  

    Boehner Just Wants Wife To Listen, Not Come Up With Alternative Debt-Reduction Ideas

    by dov12348 on Mon Feb 11, 2013 at 01:32:23 PM PST

  •  He also poses a major challenge (26+ / 0-)

    to the white "militia" movement, and its concept of resistance to (in their opinion) illegitimate authority.  He is doing almost exactly what they claim is their right to do: to rise up in "civil war" against oppressive authority.

    It will be . . . interesting . . . to see how this is rationalized "on the right" . . .

    Fake Left, Drive Right . . . not my idea of a Democrat . . .

    by Deward Hastings on Mon Feb 11, 2013 at 01:35:28 PM PST

    •  great point, the militia movement is thoroughly (9+ / 0-)

      overlapped with the white nationalist movement at this point there concern may be about "black uprisings" instead.

      Is Dorner going to inspire people to "take it to the man?"

    •  Well, the right has a deep and abiding (7+ / 0-)

      love for the police. Always has. It keeps them safe from scary brown people who want to rape their women and steal their stuff. They romanticize the police, all policemen are "heroes".  It's Big Government they hate.

      Just like they want government to keep their paws off Medicare. There's no rational logic to their thinking because it's all fear based.

      If "elitist" just means "not the dumbest motherfucker in the room", I'll be an elitist! - David Rees from "Get Your War On". //"Man will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest." - Denis Diderot

      by Oaktown Girl on Mon Feb 11, 2013 at 01:50:34 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Clarifying my point (5+ / 0-)

        The rightwing militia movement has never spoken out about police abuses to people of color.So why should they be upset for the police going after a Black man when it's justified? Color will trump ideology.  

        If "elitist" just means "not the dumbest motherfucker in the room", I'll be an elitist! - David Rees from "Get Your War On". //"Man will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest." - Denis Diderot

        by Oaktown Girl on Mon Feb 11, 2013 at 01:59:25 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

    •  What I'm finding discomfitting is how this is (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Darmok, Dr Swig Mcjigger

      being handled by a few on the left.  While we've spent years railing against the white militias who have claimed the right to do this, we're now discussing whether Dorner's doing it isn't a really good thing and maybe we should consider him a hero?  Apparently because he's black and is releasing information that we have always suspected about the LAPD and his political beliefs are on the "right" side.

      Hypocrisy anyone?  Can you imagine the uproar there would be on this site if he was one of the white militias and had just shot 3 innocent people?  Why the hell are we using a different standard for this guy?  

      Fortunately, this is the only diary and comments of the several written about him that has taken this approach.  The others have readily criticized the LAPD and the use of the descriptive of terrorist being used for him, and I've strongly supported those.   But this one is just bizzarre and I sincerely hope the apparent support being give is from just a few.

      "If you trust you are not critical; if you are critical you do not trust" by our own Dauphin

      by gustynpip on Mon Feb 11, 2013 at 01:54:50 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  I see neither (12+ / 0-)

        the "apparent support" nor the "different standard" that you imagine here.  While I'm sure he has garnered some sympathy, especially "on the street", that is not the substance of any discussion I've seen on dKos, including in this diary.

        Fake Left, Drive Right . . . not my idea of a Democrat . . .

        by Deward Hastings on Mon Feb 11, 2013 at 02:03:04 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  huh? you need to work on your nuance and optics (18+ / 0-)

        who said he is a hero? and digging deeper, could he be a hero to some? why or why not? what are you afraid to ask?

        I am working through the cultural narrative and intersections with race, power, memory, and identity here. I am curious about the case. But as is my habit, am also trying to highlight another important aspect of this conversation. That is what I do by habit and training...thus the embedded links. Check them out, you may learn a thing or two and be surprised.

        Knowing is half the battle...as GI Joe says.

        •  There are many, many, many situations in which (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Darmok

          it's both wise and appropriate to work through "the cultural narrative and intersections with race, power, memory, and identity".  A matter of a murderer killing multiple people in cold blood is not one of them.  You're not so subtle suggestion that I must be "afraid" of something because I'm willing to call him a murderer and believe that Nothing justified what he did is pretty shallow for someone who's trying to claim that he's such a "deep" thinker that he considers the cultural aspects of the mind of a person who doesn't give a shit about the lives of innocent people is more important to understand than to be concerned about the innocent people who have already been killed and the innocent people who might yet be killed.  Unbelievable that anyone could think they're being superior to others because they're looking at this tragedy from a "cultural narrative" and considering it from the "intersections with race, power, memory, and identity".  It'll be a cold day in hell that I'm impressed with such a show of cold hearted intelligentsia.

          "If you trust you are not critical; if you are critical you do not trust" by our own Dauphin

          by gustynpip on Mon Feb 11, 2013 at 02:16:03 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Being "cold hearted" may help prevent the next (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Dretutz, Chi

            Studying people's perceptions of Dorner is a distant second to taking him off the street, but most of us aren't qualified to do the latter.

            If there's someone out there believing anything favorable about him, let's find out why so we can combat that attitude.

            Freedom isn't free. Patriots pay taxes.

            by Dogs are fuzzy on Mon Feb 11, 2013 at 04:26:54 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

      •  recommend a source * for current status updates, (0+ / 0-)

        please.
        who reports best, who tracks the drone/s, where is the site for "official" mouthpiece statements a la Macondo oil "accident" in the Gulf ...

        it's happening, first time ON OUR SOIL, and we need eyes and ears following it AS IT HAPPENS, to prevent lies.

        please provide good links, if any are found.
        flickering power here, hard to keep abreast.
        already still WAY behind from Friday ...

        There is no Article II power which says the Executive can violate the Constitution.--@Hugh Addington's Perpwalk: TRAILHEAD of Accountability for Bush-2 Crimes.

        by greenbird on Mon Feb 11, 2013 at 02:06:06 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  Where do you get that anyone thinks what Dorner (6+ / 0-)

        did is a "good thing?"  Where?  That is nowhere in this diary or discussion as far as I can tell.  Please point me there as I have missed that entirely.  It is not part of the discussion.

        •  are you for real? (0+ / 0-)

          we are adults here.  There have been many of these "I don't agree with Dorner's actions, but I think we should discuss why he did it" diaries.

          People write these diaries because they DO agree with Dorner on this level, that level, or the other.  If they did not, they would not write the diary.

          Ever hear the set up to a smear  "I am not racist but...."  well, you get the point, or you should but wont.

      •  Thanks for your concern (0+ / 0-)

        the left cannot afford to be associated with murderers, then we'd be just as bad as you guys on the right.

    •  This should always be brought up, as with (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Mannie, NancyWH, Chi, Joieau

      Treyvon Martin not being "allowed" to defend himself by striking back against Zimmerman while he is allowed to shot an unarmed boy "in self defense".

      •  of course, black people, and black men must (12+ / 0-)

        always yield to white authority. you didn't get the memo?

        •  Sadly, having come from a family from the (13+ / 0-)

          Deep South, I have seen the memo way too many times.  

          Most recent, hilarious, and still sad example was when my wife and I were driving through Birmingham to visit our son at Pensacola Airbase and we decide to stop at a BBQ place.  So we pick one off the Garmin and get off the interstate. There is a line of cars around the block at the drive through so we park and go to eat inside. My wife doesn't notice cause she's from Indiana but I can see that every single car has white people in it. My goddamned race radar finally kicks in and I realize we are in the black part of town. Well, at least the BBQ will be good.  Sure enough, we get inside and not only are we the only white people in the building but everyone in there is looking at us like "did you not read the memo?"  We sit down to eat and the owner comes out to shake our hands lie I'm the mayor or something and thanks us from "coming into to visit"!  You could see the disappointment in his eyes when our accents give us away as being only visitors passing through.  I damned near cried as I thought how they would take his food but not deign to come in for a visit.  

          What the hell is wrong with people? I would shutter up the drive through and tell them to go to a fucking McDonalds. I hate that goddamned memo.

        •  Funny story (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          LilithGardener, Joieau

          I caught an airport shuttle bus in San Francisco. Logically enough, they try to keep the passengers together to maximize free space, and try to keep the front clear so people can get on and off.

          So there I was, the only white person on the bus, and as I got on the African-American bus driver told me to get in the back of the bus

          I did so without a word, of course, since it was a regulation applied to everyone uniformly for the common good, but I saw the humor.

          Freedom isn't free. Patriots pay taxes.

          by Dogs are fuzzy on Mon Feb 11, 2013 at 04:34:08 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

    •  That's what makes me most interested in this. (11+ / 0-)

      To watch the reaction of those who claim they need their 2nd Amendment to rise up against the government. Then, when a black guy does it, and it makes them squirm.

      "Mitt Romney looks like the CEO who fires you, then goes to the Country Club and laughs about it with his friends." ~ Thomas Roberts MSNBC

      by second gen on Mon Feb 11, 2013 at 02:07:02 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  I think he's John Brown. (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Mannie

    Anyone here read Cloudbuster?

    "Well, yeah, the Constitution is worth it if you succeed." - Nancy Pelosi // Question: "succeed" at what?

    by nailbender on Mon Feb 11, 2013 at 01:55:29 PM PST

  •  request for links to current situation re drones (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Mannie, KenBee

    searching to "eliminate" Dormer.
    power flickery here, hard to stay abreast.
    molto graci.

    There is no Article II power which says the Executive can violate the Constitution.--@Hugh Addington's Perpwalk: TRAILHEAD of Accountability for Bush-2 Crimes.

    by greenbird on Mon Feb 11, 2013 at 01:59:19 PM PST

  •  A good diary and now a book I want to read! (16+ / 0-)

    I like how you challenge people to do more than say "He is a murderer, he should be punished"

    1) He IS a murderer and should be punished. Of that there is NO doubt. (Summarily executed by LEO is NOT acceptable.  LEO has already proved willing to do just that given how they shot up a vehicle that look SIMILAR to the suspect's)

    2) If we fail to learn anything as to how this came about and WHY he decided to transform from a good person (see accounts of him returning $8,000, service to his country, etc.) to what he has become today, then we as a society will have failed.

    3) As a progressive community, the FANATICAL way the LAPD (and more) are going after him should frighten us all.  Far too many people have been murdered in this country, but yet those murders do NOT inspire cops to start shooting up vehicles that kinda look like the suspect's.  Far too many people have been murdered in this country, but yet we have never heard them described by LEO as being a TERRORIST.  Far too many people have been murdered in this country, but yet the TALK of using DRONES on American soil to KILL him (or severely injure him) should frighten us all.  $1 million dollars....that is a huge reward....Isn't that amount of money almost a wink and nudge to some fanatics to say vigilantism is acceptable in THIS case?

    4) I PERSONALLY do NOT like the word "thug" to describe him.  Too many RWNJ's I know use the word "thug" as a codeword for (starts with N).  Funny how they NEVER use the word thug to describe a white person.

    Never underestimate stupid. Stupid is how reTHUGlicans win!

    by Mannie on Mon Feb 11, 2013 at 02:08:42 PM PST

    •  Funny. I used the word thug. And I would (0+ / 0-)

      definitely use it for white people.  In fact, the word conjures up images of the mafia to me.  In fact, I do believe it's used when referring to mafia members quite often.

      "If you trust you are not critical; if you are critical you do not trust" by our own Dauphin

      by gustynpip on Mon Feb 11, 2013 at 03:03:09 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  thug, thug, thug (0+ / 0-)

      you don't like the "fanatical" way the police are going after a murderer?  Can you offer a less "extreme" way of doing it?  I mean crap, Charlie Sheen asked him to call, even that did not work.

      I am tired of arguing this.  Those who defend this guy will have to live with their own support.  They will have to explain to themselves at the least why they support a rampaging lunatic.

      And when they are done with that, they will talk about banning guns.

  •  I was thinking about this earlier, (8+ / 0-)

    he is the Outsider, the Other, the Different.

    You know how, in a mystery novel, the suspicion always falls on the newcomer, the outsider, the one who doesn't fit in with the locals? Because no one wants the guilty party to be the local butcher or baker, or cop.

    Now, I gather that this man is Not Nice, as he is being portrayed, and he is allegedly responsible for a couple of murders. But neither is LAPD nice, and at the moment they control the narrative.

    Interesting times here in the home of the brave and the land of the free.

    We are often so identified with whatever thoughts we may be having that we don’t realize the thoughts are a commentary on reality, and not reality itself. -- Gangaji

    by Mnemosyne on Mon Feb 11, 2013 at 02:11:13 PM PST

  •  i know you meant : (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    AoT

    "rode roughshod," not

    'run ramshackle' over the LAPD

    i know it's a tiny error.

    just wanted to thank you for even trying to use it as intended. i've been w/o power and STILL haven't got to the whole group of diaries re this fiasco of a "manhunt" and deployment of drone/s to seek and "eliminate" the prey.

    have requested replies re drone/s in hunt w/links, as keepeing abreast is touch, and i'm concerned that losing MORE than meets the eye is going on ...

    thank you for your diary.

    There is no Article II power which says the Executive can violate the Constitution.--@Hugh Addington's Perpwalk: TRAILHEAD of Accountability for Bush-2 Crimes.

    by greenbird on Mon Feb 11, 2013 at 02:18:01 PM PST

  •  he could also be unwillingly enlisted as (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Joieau, Chi

    a decoy or as cover, for 'getting used' to drones ON OUR SOIL, a decoy from the very investigation you highlight as being ignored, having come from 'a criminal,' so therefore, having 'no validity.' one does not equal the other.

    he is a nexus, a focal point for the birth of many memes.

    There is no Article II power which says the Executive can violate the Constitution.--@Hugh Addington's Perpwalk: TRAILHEAD of Accountability for Bush-2 Crimes.

    by greenbird on Mon Feb 11, 2013 at 02:21:12 PM PST

  •  Tipped & rec'ed esp for non-binary thinking nt (6+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Dretutz, Joieau, poco, greenbird, Chi, dharmafarmer
  •  Perhaps now you see why MLK used non-violence. (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Dogs are fuzzy, Joieau, erratic

    The INDISCRIMINATE violence gives the LAPD all the justification it needs to take Dorner out, wash their hands and be done with it.

    DISCRIMINATE violence can be dismissed as a dispute between a fixed set of people, wash your hands and be done with it.

    VIOLENCE makes the other side look sympathetic.

    VIOLENCE distracts from the point Dorner is trying to make.

    Granted, it is hard for a guy who is angry at losing a job he was born to do--and by all indications did amazingly well--to switch gears and figure out how to get attention for his cause in a non-violent way.

    He may be trying to speak truth to power, but he will fail.    It's a poor tactic.   Yes, he is "a canary in a coal mine" of sorts.  If you think about it, so was Mohammed Atta.  We really paid attention to him and that bin Laden guy, didn't we?  Those who live by the sword will die by the sword and those of us who survive will miss the point of the sword--literally and figuratively.

    If you care about what he is trying to say, you need to find another way of bringing the truth out.  It's one reason why some say the pen is mightier than the sword.  Your best weapon in a fight against bad guys with weapons is often managing to sway public opinion.

    I have no easy answers, but I can assure you, that Dorner's gun presents no easy answers either.

    •  Don't forget that MLK was also a master (6+ / 0-)

      provocateur. Many miss out on that fact. I like Arrendt's (sp?) exchanges and reflections on that matter too...very provocative and necessary.

      •  And many don't (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Darmok
        Don't forget that MLK was also a master provocateur. Many miss out on that fact.
        As a native son of the South, Dr. Martin Luther King was intimately acquainted with police brutality and institutional corruption.

        Yet he never jumped over a seat and choked a white colleague because they uttered a racial slur as Christophe Dorner did. Nor did he ambush and murder one cop, while leaving the other in critical condition.

        Nor did he kill the daughter of anyone he had grievances with make vows like this until he got what he wanted.

        I will utilize OSINT to discover your residences, spouses workplaces, and children's schools. IMINT to coordinate and plan attacks on your fixed locations. Its amazing whats on NIPR. HUMINT will be utilized to collect personal schedules of targets. I never had the opportunity to have a family of my own, I'm terminating yours.

        http://gawker.com/...

        There is absolutely no credible comparison between Christopher Dorner's actions as a "provacateur," to raise awareness about LAPD corruption and Dr. Martin Luther King's, non-violent campaign to raise awareness about economic and racial injustice.

        "I am not interested in picking up crumbs of compassion thrown from the table of someone who considers himself my master. I want the full menu of rights." (From "You Said a Mouthful" by Bishop Desmond Tutu - South African bishop & activist, b.1931)

        by FiredUpInCA on Mon Feb 11, 2013 at 07:52:39 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  again great talking points on your point--i never (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          AoT, awesumtenor

          said he was Dorner--where and how do you jump to such ill conceived conclusions? Bizarre. Really. I always try to point out the complexity of Dr. King, he is so misunderstood. Stolen by conservatives who dishonestly channel 3 seconds of a speech to rail against affirmative action, a policy king supported. Likewise, I intervene against pie in the sky childish notions of Brother Dr. King by many on the Left.

          Brother King was a master tactician and strategist. His policies were also ill-equipped for dealing with white supremacy in the North. He died one of the most unpopular people in America, too far ahead of white folks for sure, and many, many black folks too.

        •  A provacateur (0+ / 0-)

          is someone who keeps at it until the cows come home to roost.

    •  And What happened to (0+ / 0-)

      Martin Luther King?

      Ironic, isn't it?

    •  Standing shoulder to shoulder (0+ / 0-)

      with MLK were the Deacons for Defense and Justice

      Like everything else in this life, it was not nearly as cut and dried as some would like one to believe...

      Fear doesn't just breed incomprehension. It also breeds a spiteful, resentful hate of anyone and everyone who is in any way different from you.

      by awesumtenor on Tue Feb 12, 2013 at 11:06:22 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  "Christopher Dorner is a Rorschach test" (8+ / 0-)

    I think you have proven that.  Good deconstruction, and a lot of things that have occurred to me over the years.  And I'm old!

    "The light which puts out our sight is darkness to us." Thoreau

    by NancyWH on Mon Feb 11, 2013 at 02:28:54 PM PST

    •  that is true (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Rich in PA

      but people should be careful about how they come out on that test.  If people are so willing to defend Dorner, a sociopath and murderer, how great is their own hold on civility?

      •  I see quite a lot of incivility (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Sandino, AoT

        here from you and gusty, so obviously some people's holds on civility are weak. Now, what exactly should we "be careful" of when considering what's happening in LA at present? Last I checked, there's no "correct" response to any Rorschach ink blot. They're all just bilaterally symmetrical ink blots.

        It's a perceptual thing, a way to plumb what's on people's minds - revealed by their descriptions of what they perceive. Your response reveals an unjustified belief that other people's thoughts and perceptions are within your power to control. Classic.

  •  Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar (5+ / 0-)

    Diaries like this and all of the talk about projecting some kind of mythology onto Dorner make me think that we really haven't progressed very far as a culture or society.  We talk a lot about the need to let reason - not passion - be our guide, but we are collectively still anxious to write a whole story when we know so little.

  •  trust. indeed. (0+ / 0-)

    murder through trust.
    i learned of it from Otteray Scribe.

    There is no Article II power which says the Executive can violate the Constitution.--@Hugh Addington's Perpwalk: TRAILHEAD of Accountability for Bush-2 Crimes.

    by greenbird on Mon Feb 11, 2013 at 02:39:38 PM PST

  •  yes. and sees us as --- ? fools ? (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Chi
    institutional power sees him, quite correctly, as a threat.
    accomplices to whatever outcome institutional power desires ?

    There is no Article II power which says the Executive can violate the Constitution.--@Hugh Addington's Perpwalk: TRAILHEAD of Accountability for Bush-2 Crimes.

    by greenbird on Mon Feb 11, 2013 at 02:41:27 PM PST

  •  investigate his charges. (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    awesumtenor
    Christopher Dorner dared to tell his version of the truth regarding the LAPD's history of corruption and racism. They do not like tattle tales and "snitches." Dorner is a threat because of his violent actions and the symbolic power of his words and deeds.
    separate them from his crimes.

    separate the "inseparable" -- or intentionally used -- symbolism.

    prove him "wrong," if you dare.

    There is no Article II power which says the Executive can violate the Constitution.--@Hugh Addington's Perpwalk: TRAILHEAD of Accountability for Bush-2 Crimes.

    by greenbird on Mon Feb 11, 2013 at 02:46:01 PM PST

  •  we praise '-- or give me death!' without living in (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Bisbonian, Joieau, awesumtenor

    conditions requiring it.

    we use 'Resolved,...' commonly, without experiencing it.

    your diary is very good. i have hotlisted it. i am familiar with all your points. i will examine your links. it is important, and i thank you, again, for writing and posting it. it is an awe-ful responsibility, freedom.

    I would suspect that he knows such a fact already and has accepted it. This makes him all the more lethal. Wanted dead or alive, Christopher Dorner will have a life much longer than the 30 years he spent on terrestrial earth.

    There is no Article II power which says the Executive can violate the Constitution.--@Hugh Addington's Perpwalk: TRAILHEAD of Accountability for Bush-2 Crimes.

    by greenbird on Mon Feb 11, 2013 at 02:51:48 PM PST

  •  apparently white culture (7+ / 0-)

    can create myths around Frank and Jesse James, Billy the Kid,  Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid, all murderers, all pretty bad if judged by their crimes, but over time, through dime novels, fictionalized biographies or the movies,  heroes.

    It is an interesting question, how and why we make criminals into heroes.  Because they really aren't hero material.  Maybe it is a measure of our discontent with current authority.  

    As you mentioned and linked to in 'social banditry' comment, it is not just a phenomenon of American culture, but has its roots in many cultures.  Maybe it has its roots in humanity itself.  Criminals, rebels without causes outside their own greed or need for revenge on persons or society for whatever shaped them, that we turn into vessels for our own needs and desires to strike out against situations we can't control but which damage us and our faith in ourselves, our society, our government,etc.   Nevertheless, if we strip them back down, take our projections out of the history of their lives, I think they ultimately do come down to damaged, violent people who we shouldn't admire, whom we wouldn't want to know in our lives, and who are fighting noble battles indirectly on our behalf.  All heroes have clay feet because they are human.

    •  I think you're glossing over some things (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Dogs are fuzzy

      First, I think you're confusing notorieity with hero status.  There have been many criminals who are notorious and have found their way into books, movies, etc., but not as heroes.  People are interested in what makes people tick, including "bad guys" but that doesn't mean people view them as heroes.  

      Second, to the extent that there is a certain mystique to criminals - like Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid - it's often based on the fact that their crimes were not murder (not sure that either of them were murderers, for example).  "Robbing from the rich" has had allure for centuries and it's certainly not an American creation.  Moreover, the folks you mentioned were all popularized in a press eager to sell papers and create sensational stories.  While that's still true to some extent, it's not the latter half of the 19th century any longer.  Treatment in the media today is likely to portray the Bonnie and Clydes, Al Capones and the like for what they were.

      Third, I don't think many people have ever idolized someone who kills randomly, as Dorner has allegedly done.  Anyone who acts purely to right some personal wrong isn't particularly sympathetic to start with, but when they start killing innocents, they're likely headed for notoriety but not hero status.

      •  it is a lot more like the late 1900's (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        AoT

        economically and politically than most would want to acknowledge.

        Butch Cassidy claimed to have never killed a man, and he might not have, but he and his gang weren't above carrying guns to threaten people. beat up people they robbed or stealing from banks, which weren't insured institutions in those days, but if the money was gone, real people didn't have their savings,  and robbing ordinary people on the road.

        And maybe it is more a southern thing, but Frank and Jesse James, over time, have been treated well in many legends, songs, etc.

        Dorner didn't kill 'randomly' as I understood it, but chose victims who had done nothing to him, but who were chosen for relationships to those he felt were responsible and that he was visiting retribution for the family he lost etc., by taking the same from them.

        The other officer shot was more random in that he was shot after Dorner was fleeing a failed attempt at someone else's house who was part of his 'revenge' killing.

        But I can see how to the families of those who lost members to officer involved shootings of people who probably didn't deserve to die, persons beaten in custody, etc., people harrassed and arrested just for their color, etc.,  someone taking it to the people who supported that system, that allowed racism and brutality to continue, could be turned into a champion of the people have been victims for more years than I care to count.  It really isn't all that far from Robin Hood in this day and age when all we hear is 'Second Amendment rights'.  Which is why no civilized society can afford to encourage racism, social and economic inequality of epic proportions, to disenfranchise and demean significant portions of the population.   It breeds anger and discontent.  It threatens everyone, perpetrator and victim alike.   How did the English see the rag tag militias that stood against them in colonial America?  Freedom fighters or criminals?  How do we see them with the benefit of hindsight?

        •  That is unmitigated BS (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          FiredUpInCA

          Anyone who would view Dorner as a "champion of the people" is a pretty sick individual themselves.  

          Based on what we know, Dorner is concerned with himself only.  To put him on par with American colonists - absolute rubbish.  Anyone who would even suggest it - well, I don't think this conversation is worth pursuing.

          •  And yet we live in a country where (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            poco, jfromga, awesumtenor

            an sniper who kills more than two hundred people can write a book and become a hero.

            I don't see anyone else out there vying for the title "Champion of the People" right now, and that's the problem.

          •  OK, so people hate and fear the LAPD (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            FiredUpInCA

            There's an online comic about a mercenary company one of whose mottos is
            "Rule 29. The enemy of my enemy is my enemy's enemy. No more. No less."

            The enemy of your enemy is not your friend, Dorner is not anyone's friend, and the people I've seen quoted from Twitter have completely missed both points.

            Freedom isn't free. Patriots pay taxes.

            by Dogs are fuzzy on Mon Feb 11, 2013 at 05:53:46 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

          •  I asked anyone (0+ / 0-)

            to think of the colonists from the point of view of England,  the colonists were committing treason.  The Founding Fathers recognized it.  They even wrote their own manifesto, we call it the Declaration of Independence, but that followed the bloodshed (and civil disobedience that included running Crown personnel out of town after tar and feathering and destruction of private property) by quite a while.

            I am amazed that people can't stand in the other guy's shoes and try to see what the other person sees.

            Dorner will always be a murderer, a man who broke some of the most universal rules of society, and he might well be crazy.    But if, in reopening the investigation,  it is shown that he was right, that changes happen in policing, that better management and training, and a non-tolerance for police brutality takes hold, I can well imagine that many people will minimize the murders  aspect of the story over time.  

            •  Here's what amazes me (0+ / 0-)

              That anyone could compare a guy who specifically says that he's going to kill people because he wants to restore his name - a purely personal goal that he thinks justifies murder of innocent people - and American revolutionaries.  Any change to the LAPD that might come from this incident doesn't matter to Dorner according to his own words.

              If you truly and honestly can't see the vast difference between them and think that "well, maybe those murders will be minimized someday," there is nothing further to be said other than to note the similarity of your theory with the looniest loons of Free Republic.

              •  I am not a loon (0+ / 0-)

                but I do know how much history distorts what really happens in many cases.   People are constantly suprised when heroes weren't very heroic, and bad guys really were freedom fighters.

                I am not saying that will happen, just that it is possible.  Plus plenty of revisionist historians, some famous ones, say the founding fathers were just a group of rich guys wanting more of the pie, and they started a war to exploit people, kept slaves, etc. to feather their own nests.

                •  So, what's the chance of that? (0+ / 0-)

                  Seriously; this is the problem that I have.  Either Dorner killed three innocent people in his quest to clear his name or he didn't kill them and it's just the most interesting coincidence since about ever that he targeted these people and someone else just happened to have killed them.

                  Either way, I don't see how any sane person equates Dorner with American colonists and all you and a few others have offered is some theory that the gloss of history will provide a justification or he'll become some kind of sick cult hero.  Well, what justification was there for killing Ms. Quan and her fiance?  "Can't make an omelet without breaking some eggs?"  

                  •  you keep want to make it personal (0+ / 0-)

                    no one here said they would personally make Mr. Dorner their hero.   It was an abstract discussion about mythologies that build up around certain people,  how they do become cult heroes even after doing evil things, how some disenfranchised subcultures view things differently than the main culture.

                    If the US colonists had lost, they would have been traitors justly hanged by the Crown in the history books.  

                    No one says Mr. Dorner has any personal traits that justify his being or becoming an icon in history where all his sharp edges and worst motives are hidden, rubbed out of the books.   But some of us, maybe those of us who have had some exposure to questioning how 'mainstream' history gets written and rewritten, realize that odd things happen with enough time, a few inaccurate biographies or sensationalized and fictionlized accounts are accepted as serious academic work,  and suddenly, contemporaries couldn't recognize someone in the myth.   And sometimes societies create these myths, champions, out of people who are not deserving.

                    I am perfectly ok with Mr. Dorner being caught, tried and punished.  I am perfectly happy if he becomes some odd little footnote or is never noted in a history book.   He didn't set out to help the world when he started his murder spree, once upon a time, he might have meant to do good, but that's not where he ended up.  But could history ignore some of that middle that was just wrong and bad, yes, it could.

                    At this site, it wouldn't be hard to find people who understand that the cowboys were not always good guys even if that is what most movies portrayed for decades, but out in the larger population, how much of Hollywood's mythos has replaced reality?

  •  Ready Answer (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Rich in PA

    Dorner is a coward and cold blooded murderer.  Some might do as you say and place their beliefs and causes on him, but he is nothing more than the lowest of the low.  He murdered innocent people, the children of those he has a problem with.   The only thing he has proved to us is that he should have been fired sooner; or actually, never hired by the police or the Navy.

    People on the left who try to make this slime a hero are only hurting their own cause.  If anything will be remembered after Dorner is gone, it will be those who jumped on his bandwagon.  This reminds me of the footage of the Nazi collaborators, when they had their heads shaved after the liberation.

  •  this is all i have re drone/s, and is not vetted. (0+ / 0-)

    others ?
    updates ?
    please cite/link, if reply.

    i gotta learn knitting.

    There is no Article II power which says the Executive can violate the Constitution.--@Hugh * Addington's Perpwalk: TRAILHEAD of Accountability for Bush-2 Crimes.

    by greenbird on Mon Feb 11, 2013 at 02:58:06 PM PST

    •  working on it ... (0+ / 0-)

      There is no Article II power which says the Executive can violate the Constitution.--@Hugh * Addington's Perpwalk: TRAILHEAD of Accountability for Bush-2 Crimes.

      by greenbird on Mon Feb 11, 2013 at 03:09:04 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Holding Company for Express: (0+ / 0-)

        under

        "ABOUT US
        Northern & Shell Media Group Limited is the holding company for several companies. Each individual company will decide on how to process personal information, but always in line with this policy. A company that decides on what and how to process personal information is called a Data Controller.

        When you provide personal information to the Daily Express and the Sunday Express the data controller is Express Newspapers (company number 00141748).

        When you provide personal information to the Daily Star and the Daily Star Sunday the data controller is Express Newspapers (company number 00141748).

        When you provide personal information to OK! magazine the data controller is Northern & Shell Plc (company number 01633971).

        When you provide personal information to Star magazine the data controller is Northern & Shell Plc (company number 01633971).

        When you provide personal information to new! magazine the data controller is Northern & Shell Titles Limited (company number 02827197).

        When you provide personal information to Channel 5 the data controller is Channel 5 Broadcasting Limited (company number 03147640).

        When you provide personal information to The Health Lottery the data controller is The Health Lottery Limited. (company number 03147640).

        All of the above companies have their registered offices at 10 Lower Thames Street, London, EC3R 6EN.

        Northern & Shell Media Group Limited’s group of companies is committed to your right to privacy and will only use your data as set in our Privacy Policy below. Please read this information carefully."

        nothing too nefarious there ...
        on to this "now msn com" for similar vetting
        (who yanks their chain, in other words.)
        thanks, again Dretutz (what does that mean/how is it pronounced ?) gimme a minnit ...

        There is no Article II power which says the Executive can violate the Constitution.--@Hugh * Addington's Perpwalk: TRAILHEAD of Accountability for Bush-2 Crimes.

        by greenbird on Mon Feb 11, 2013 at 04:03:29 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

    •  Here is a link I could find on use of drone here: (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      greenbird
      •  thanks ! (0+ / 0-)

        express uk seems to be "ok" in that it's not rupert et al ...

        There is no Article II power which says the Executive can violate the Constitution.--@Hugh * Addington's Perpwalk: TRAILHEAD of Accountability for Bush-2 Crimes.

        by greenbird on Mon Feb 11, 2013 at 03:31:10 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  now.msn.com is (0+ / 0-)

        trendy

        and

        microsoft

        and

        microsoft

        microsoft

        so where's the journalism, i guess would be my question.
        pass.

        There is no Article II power which says the Executive can violate the Constitution.--@Hugh * Addington's Perpwalk: TRAILHEAD of Accountability for Bush-2 Crimes.

        by greenbird on Mon Feb 11, 2013 at 04:35:21 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  now.msn.com text of Dorner report: (0+ / 0-)
        Report: Fugitive alleged killer is target of police drone
        1 day ago

        Christopher Dorner, the homicidal former cop currently on the run from the LAPD, is a target of airborne drones on U.S. soil, an anonymous source told London's Express. A senior police source told the Express, “The thermal imaging cameras the drones use may be our only hope of finding him. On the ground, it’s like looking for a needle in a haystack.” The fugitive has already killed three people, according to police, and has a $1 million bounty on his head. Dorner, who has military training, is believed to be hiding in the wilderness of California's San Bernardino Mountains, where locating him without air support may be all but impossible.

        Editor's note: This story originally included a report that customs officials had confirmed the use of drones. The LAPD has offered no confirmation (or denial) of drones in the hunt for Dorner. The Atlantic also refutes The Express' claim that Dorner is the first person on U.S. soil to be hunted by a drone. In 2011, a North Dakota county sheriff used a drone to stalk three alleged cow thieves.

        nerve gas, sheep in Idaho, some fictional novel...
        what am i remembering here ? (bolding mine, just that i don't like, if it's not a quote...)

        There is no Article II power which says the Executive can violate the Constitution.--@Hugh * Addington's Perpwalk: TRAILHEAD of Accountability for Bush-2 Crimes.

        by greenbird on Mon Feb 11, 2013 at 04:40:39 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  however, now.msn.com comments to this story (0+ / 0-)

          appear to be interesting ...
          i haven't read 'em yet. gimme time.

          There is no Article II power which says the Executive can violate the Constitution.--@Hugh * Addington's Perpwalk: TRAILHEAD of Accountability for Bush-2 Crimes.

          by greenbird on Mon Feb 11, 2013 at 04:45:28 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

    •  seems legit source to me. (0+ / 0-)

      continue sharing links to other reporting, with my thanks.

      There is no Article II power which says the Executive can violate the Constitution.--@Hugh * Addington's Perpwalk: TRAILHEAD of Accountability for Bush-2 Crimes.

      by greenbird on Mon Feb 11, 2013 at 04:25:53 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  Dorner has a list and so do I. (1+ / 1-)
    Recommended by:
    RightLeaningMod
    Hidden by:
    PSWaterspirit

    His list is "people to kill to get back at other people."  My list is "people that should be banned from Daily Kos for investing murder with nobility."  Dorner is more popular, I suspect.

    You know, I sometimes think if I could see, I'd be kicking a lot of ass. -Stevie Wonder at the Glastonbury Festival, 2010

    by Rich in PA on Mon Feb 11, 2013 at 03:24:49 PM PST

  •  HR'd for more tiresome apologias for murder. (0+ / 0-)

    Chauncey does it better than the others, but style points are handled separately.

    You know, I sometimes think if I could see, I'd be kicking a lot of ass. -Stevie Wonder at the Glastonbury Festival, 2010

    by Rich in PA on Mon Feb 11, 2013 at 03:30:10 PM PST

  •  The beam? (0+ / 0-)
    In the literary sense, Dorner is not a badman...yet. But, that is the power of cultural memory.

    Perhaps, Christopher Dorner will be transformed through cultural memory and storytelling into a figure talked about for decades and centuries to come, with multiple versions of his tales and exploits, shaped by the griots and bards for their respective audiences?

    Matthew 7:1-5
    1 JUDGE not, that ye be not judged.
    2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.
    3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?
    4 Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?
    5 Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.
    Interpretation

    The moral lesson is to avoid hypocrisy and censoriousness. The analogy used is of a small object in another's eye as compared with a large beam of wood in one's own.

    "When you're wounded and left on Afghanistan's plains, And the women come out to cut up what remains, Jest roll to your rifle and blow out your brains An' go to your Gawd like a soldier." Rudyard Kipling

    by EdMass on Mon Feb 11, 2013 at 03:52:11 PM PST

  •  Well Chauncy, I play banjo...Old Time, (10+ / 0-)

    some Bluegrass.  Groups get together, we jam, we often play "John Brown's Dream", once in a while Stackolee (Stagger Lee, Stag-o-lee).  Frankie and Johnnie, Tom Dooley (Dula was his real name), and lots of muder ballads named after the victims.  They are mythic stories...talking (or singing) about them is a way of reflecting on right and wrong, a way of warning each other about what to avoid, about the nature of human society.  Doesn't mean we want to be like them, or that they are our heros.  But they do become larger than life figures.

    The songs about Stagger Lee and Frankie and Johnie (both happened in St. Louis) were being sung within a day or two of the events.  In another time, there would already be songs about Dorner.  It's an interesting story, and it gets people talking...even those that disagree with you.  Funny, even those who are HRing your diary are participating in the "bad man" narrative.  Well done.

    "We refuse to fight in a war started by men who refused to fight in a war." -freewayblogger

    by Bisbonian on Mon Feb 11, 2013 at 04:25:51 PM PST

    •  you must play some good music! these narratives (7+ / 0-)

      are a deep part of our culture. most americans do not want to think about how violent a society we are and how that blood and love of the anti-hero and badman is as american as apple pie.

      Have you heard of the murder ballads recordings that were released a few years back?

      •  Which ones? In my little world, that happens (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Larsstephens, Joieau

        all the time!  I have quite a collection of this type of music...many versions of Omie Wise (which really bugs my girlfriend), Pretty Polly, Down in the Willow Garden (my next door neighbor and I had worked up a good version of that, and took it to lots of Bluegrass Festivals).  One of my favorites, though, is Darlin' Cora/ Darling Corey/ Little Maggie/ Country Blues.  More drinking and dissipation than murder...and there are some really weird and dark banjo tunings that go with them.

        In the hero realm, I have well over a hundred John Henry recordings.  Talk about a popular story....

        "We refuse to fight in a war started by men who refused to fight in a war." -freewayblogger

        by Bisbonian on Mon Feb 11, 2013 at 06:20:29 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

  •  Its this kind of thinking (0+ / 0-)

    that keeps me from being a liberal.  Its good to see plenty of opposition to this type of thinking here, but the fact that some DKos members think this way is very disturbing.  

    I'm a moderate, and I voted for President Obama...

  •  marcy (the weeds queen) (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Joieau

    has reading and thinking for you.
    right here. right now.

    get going, before it's too late.

    There is no Article II power which says the Executive can violate the Constitution.--@Hugh * Addington's Perpwalk: TRAILHEAD of Accountability for Bush-2 Crimes.

    by greenbird on Mon Feb 11, 2013 at 05:00:03 PM PST

  •  Every soldier (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    greenbird, AoT, Dretutz

    every police officer, everyone that has ever killed another human being is a murderer. Context is everything.

  •  Horace just posted HIS diary ... (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    martini, Joieau

    here.

    2nd LAPD LEO re Rights violations.

    There is no Article II power which says the Executive can violate the Constitution.--@Hugh * Addington's Perpwalk: TRAILHEAD of Accountability for Bush-2 Crimes.

    by greenbird on Mon Feb 11, 2013 at 06:01:54 PM PST

    •  and the guardian-uk has this... (0+ / 0-)

      There is no Article II power which says the Executive can violate the Constitution.--@Hugh * Addington's Perpwalk: TRAILHEAD of Accountability for Bush-2 Crimes.

      by greenbird on Mon Feb 11, 2013 at 07:37:49 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  per guardian: (0+ / 0-)
      Police continued searching cabins in remote areas of Big Bear, a snowy mountain resort north of LA which has been the focus of the dragnet, and officers elsewhere chased up reported sightings. Authorities declined to confirm whether drones were being used.

      There is no Article II power which says the Executive can violate the Constitution.--@Hugh * Addington's Perpwalk: TRAILHEAD of Accountability for Bush-2 Crimes.

      by greenbird on Mon Feb 11, 2013 at 07:39:28 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  Another black literary character: (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    AoT

    Coalhouse Walker, from Doctorow's Ragtime, who is based on Kleist's Michael Kohlhaas, from the novella of the same name, would probably do for anyone who happens to be sympathetic to Dorner.

  •  All I can say is that a good journalist (0+ / 0-)

    needs to check out his allegations and do an investigative piece.

    Otherwise, the LAPD has been embarrassed by the truth of their corruption seeping out from under the surface.  I hate to say it, but the only recourse they will have is to silence Christopher Dorner and try to white wash their bad behavior.

    Mr. Dorner has declared war on systemic racism and The Man by his act of defiance.

    "Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." --Benjamin Franklin

    by politicalceci on Tue Feb 12, 2013 at 06:48:09 AM PST

  •  I know sam greenlee. he's a friend of my dad's (0+ / 0-)

    one time I went over my dad's house and he was literally sitting by the door lmao.  that cracked me up even then.

    I honestly don't see what's so provocative about this diary.  as another commenter noted... time was, there would already have been folk songs written about this guy.  noting that isn't apologia, it's just history.  likewise, noting the sociopsychological factors that may or may not have contributed to this rampage isn't apologia.  it's academia.

    This comment is dedicated to my mellow Adept2U and his Uncle Marcus

    by mallyroyal on Tue Feb 12, 2013 at 07:36:18 AM PST

  •  I find the cries of "Murderer" curious (0+ / 0-)

    1) George W Bush and Dick Cheney killed over 100,000 Iraqi civilians -- and 4500 Americans -- in an unnecessary war based on deceit.   How many cops did Obama send after them?

    2) The suicide rate has soared since the financial crisis of 2008 -- 6000 more Americans have killed themselves than would have been expected if the rate had held at its level in 2006-7.   Two people here in Philly killed themselves when they lost their homes to foreclosure.

    Wall Street millionaires have  killed more Americans than Al Qaeda -- how many cops has Obama sent after them?

    3) And I particularly crack up when people say "we don't negotiate with terrorists".   What I saw in 2008 was some guys holding a gun to the head of the national economy and threatening to shoot -- to destroy the  systems essential to sustain the lives of 310 Americans.

    And what I saw was them getting was $Trillions of bailout and a Get Out of Jail Free card.   If that isn't terrorism, what is?

    4) I am white -- and I don't see Christopher Dorner as a black man.   I see him as an American -- a fellow countryman.   Someone stupid enough to believe in "Duty, Honor, Country" instead of "Every Man for Himself and Find a Rich Man's Butt to Kiss".  

    Yes -- he's been driven crazy with rage.   But his service as a policeman and  in Iraq justifies having the FBI investigate the LAPD --with polygraphs -- to see what drove someone with a reported TS/SCI clearance  and his military service off the rails.

    5) While I respect Martin Luther King, he did not win the Civil Rights battle --his pacifism got his head blown off.   What won civil rights was significant parts of several major cities being burned to the ground and US elites calculating how the Soviet Union's KGB could exploit that rage.  

    The richest 2%  looked at the $Trillions in taxes they already had spent to counteract the Soviet nuclear threat -- after some  disgruntled people in the Rosenberg and Cohen spy rings gave Joseph Stalin the detailed design of the plutonium implosion bomb -- and threw in the towel.  

    The spy rings themselves were blowback from the misery of the Great Depression spawned by Wall Street.   So the Rich also put a lid on the Wall Street thieving for a few decades.

    •  Correction: Para 3 above should have read (0+ / 0-)

      "systems essential to sustain the lives of 310 MILLION Americans."

    •  PS After the Soviet Union collapsed, then giving (0+ / 0-)

      the common citizens a decent break was no longer necessary.  

      The share of the national income taken by the Rich began its rise from 8% to the 25% of today

      while the  median real wage of the American worker began its decades long decline.  Ask the Supreme Court to explain why that is a good thing.

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