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Unless you have been avoiding any news anywhere for the last few days you should already be roughly familiar with the horrific and horrifying situation that has been going on in Steubenville Ohio. If not, I'll hit the lowlights. Basically high school football players thought that a fun thing to do would be to repeatedly rape a girl, and take and share pictures. And many of the adults in the town thought that they would join in on the fun and help cover up for the rapists. Eventually facts came to light, two of the players were tried and convicted. Then because they hate to be left out of a good time CNN decided that it would be fun to carry on about how tragic it was that the two convicted rapists lives were potentially destroyed because they were now, well convicted rapists. This understandably has pissed a whoooole lot of people off.

But here's the thing. What happened to those boys is indeed a tragedy. And oddly enough their tragedy precedes and is even directly responsible for the tragedy inflicted upon the victim of their actions. It is a tragedy that if we do not recognize and accept the fact of it will likely be repeated again in another small town just like Steubenville.

I don't know when the tragedy occured. Quite likely it was not one grand tragedy but rather several small ones over the course of several years. Those boys were given messages, from society, from the adults they interacted with, and from their peers that led them to a wrong conclusion. The messages roughly were A: Being male and playing football gives you license to do whatever you want. B: If you are male and play football adults will cover for you no matter what you do. And, C: Females are worthy of less consideration than males, especially male football players.

Who knows how many times and in how many ways these boys were given those messages. It was probably often in small ways. Grades given out that they had not earned. Inappropriate behavior towards female classmates ignored or excused. There are myriad moments in which the fundamental messages mentioned above could have been and probably were communicated. Over time it led the boys to a fateful moment in which they acted upon those messages and made wrong and horrifying choices.

That's the tragedy. Not that they have been convicted of the crime which they committed but rather that they were put on that path by people who truly did not have their best interests at heart. People who for whatever reason found it easier to ignore the boys actions rather than address them. People who cared more about a game, a fucking GAME, than they cared about making certain that these boys grew into decent and honorable young men.

From that tragedy came the tragedy that was forced upon the young lady they victimized. Sadly I fear there are still more tragedies to come. Because in the course of bringing the full truth to light, a school will be damaged, a town, families. So much damage done just because some people found it easier, thought it better to be enablers rather than the adults they were supposed to be. Lives destroyed, who knows right now how many, but at least three so far. Lives destroyed because of laziness, and moral cowardice.

If that's not a tragedy I don't know what is.

Keep The Faith My Brothers And Sisters!

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Comment Preferences

  •  Tip Jar (172+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    peachcreek, greengemini, Throw The Bums Out, serendipityisabitch, tecampbell, begone, BlackSheep1, WakeUpNeo, Involuntary Exile, Laurence Lewis, jan4insight, SwedishJewfish, fumie, gloriana, Clive all hat no horse Rodeo, HappyinNM, Orinoco, blueoasis, Horsefeathers, LaFeminista, Chaddiwicker, jayden, Linda1961, postmodernista, HCKAD, mamamorgaine, CTDemoFarmer, k9disc, NYFM, aravir, Kristina40, UTLiberal, Empower Ink, 2thanks, kevin k, white blitz, mkor7, Carol in San Antonio, terabytes, s l o w loris, Eddie L, missLotus, evilstorm, jerseyjo, marleycat, AllisonInSeattle, buckstop, cassandraX, sydneyluv, Cofcos, Geenius at Wrok, Smoh, emal, Renee, pioneer111, Tara the Antisocial Social Worker, anodnhajo, jeanette0605, myeye, JDWolverton, karmsy, Lefty Ladig, nzanne, Cronesense, cv lurking gf, Silvia Nightshade, pixxer, Joieau, Gowrie Gal, zerelda, Heart of the Rockies, zaynabou, Its a New Day, jrooth, glorificus, AnotherMassachusettsLiberal, kurious, Anima, Mayfly, Siri, motherlu, congenitalefty, Cassandra Waites, Debby, StrayCat, JohnnySacks, Leftcandid, petulans, Kevskos, Glacial Erratic, Ocelopotamus, FutureNow, RandomNonviolence, CIndyCasella, raptavio, CorinaR, psnyder, MBNYC, Jay C, dotsright, eeff, Shippo1776, collardgreens, koNko, Lying eyes, Mistral Wind, Batya the Toon, Oh Mary Oh, DBunn, PeterHug, StateofEuphoria, Potus2020, arizonablue, Preston S, LaEscapee, kevinpdx, Onomastic, Kimbeaux, NormAl1792, Sun Tzu, No one gets out alive, Chinton, Lost and Found, wasatch, science nerd, Catte Nappe, incognita, Hey338Too, brooklyns finest, absdoggy, Raynfala, tung sol, meralda, yoduuuh do or do not, Caneel, Powered Grace, Ice Blue, Catkin, bsmechanic, Thinking Fella, NearlyNormal, a gilas girl, GreatDane, greycat, TAH from SLC, grannyboots, lgmcp, Emerson, Noddy, trumpeter, surfbird007, jfromga, BalanceSeeker, Themistoclea, Snuffleupagus, Rhysling, Damnit Janet, bleeding blue, DvCM, JamieG from Md, leonard145b, edsbrooklyn, dejavu, marina, DeminNewJ, fotyc, Ishmaelbychoice, blue91, DianeNYS, maf1029, samddobermann, astrogeology girl
  •  The coaches, parents, enablers... (87+ / 0-)

    they bear a tremendous moral responsibility.

    To listen to them dissemble and lie lets us know how deep the problem cuts.

    Those boys were certainly led astray.  They made horrible choices based on expectations of entitlement that cannot be tolerated however.

    The enablers need to be brought to justice and scorn.

    That coach should be behind bars for obstruction.


    The business of Nations is never morality. Moral stories live only through people.

    by tecampbell on Mon Mar 18, 2013 at 11:28:13 PM PDT

  •  That level of cruelty comes from something (58+ / 0-)

    beyond what you describe. Athletes get special treatment when it comes to grades, because they need good grades to be able to play. They don't get excused for torture and humiliation. That a whole group of people knew about what happened, including a coach, and participated through omission, makes them just as guilty as the perpetrators. I don't think this has to do with athletics (and please know that I'm not a sports fan). It has more to do with a very sick society. How does every single person involved leave a young woman who had been raped, urinated upon, and naked on the floor of a basement when they knew she was drunk enough to pass out (think alcohol poisoning)? Very sick indeed.

    •  to coin a cliche; it represents a slippery slope (30+ / 0-)

      where it goes from pressuring profs for higher grades to maintain eligibility to covering for promising athletes when they do dumb things to covering for them when those dumb things become misdemeanors and then progress to felonies.

      The point is the goalposts are constantly moved for what is expected of gifted athletes until the kids begin to believe that there are no goalposts for them.  A question I heard asked is if the team began each game with a prayer and if the coach used his faith as a frame to explain sportsmanship to his team.  This becomes relevant when it is considered that this same coach at least condoned and at worse promoted the "Rape Crew" and the attitude that goes along with it.  The point to my ramble is that people tend to compartmentalize their lives and their morality and such an event is apparently on display here

      •  There's more points than that (44+ / 0-)

        Its more than just the atheletes

        How does every single person involved leave a young woman who had been raped, urinated upon, and naked on the floor of a basement when they knew she was drunk enough to pass out (think alcohol poisoning)?
        thats the question to ask!!  What makes it all right in our society to do this? These were not poor or disadvaantaged kids, these are solid middle class people.  Young men and women watched this happen, participated in it.
        Whats really bad, besides the crime itself, is that these kids think its totally OK to do this.  no compassion for someone suffering. No shame at all and then to brag about it on Facebook.
        Consequences are due for a lot of people.

        Happy just to be alive

        by exlrrp on Tue Mar 19, 2013 at 05:52:54 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  you are correct; however I understood that (23+ / 0-)

          at the end of the night, they threw her out onto a lawn and drove off, leaving her lying unconscious.  I may be mistaken but I do remember several comments in some of the popular media which stated the guys should be prosecuted for "littering".  What is ugly is not only that this incident occurred but also that the rapists received a significant amount of community support  

        •  Exactly (11+ / 0-)

          True, this was the message the boys were given:

          Being male and playing football gives you license to do whatever you want.
          My question is, what kind of sick fuck have they turned into if of all the things they COULD do for fun, this is what they WANTED to do?

          261.A wealthy man can afford anything except a conscience. -Ferengi Rules of Acquisition

          by MaikeH on Tue Mar 19, 2013 at 06:52:41 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  The alcohol is as big a problem as the rape (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          JoanMar, Rooe, happymisanthropy

          And while there is never any excuse for rape and no one ever deserves to be raped, if no one is teaching young women how dangerous it is to be drunk and out of control that is just as big a problem as the young men not being taught about consent.  

          •  Why have you singled out young women (4+ / 0-)

            for alcohol consumption problems?

            Seems to me that you people have a problem with alcohol and I would bet that more young men die from alcohol poising then young women.

            A few stats from the CDC:

            Drinking levels for men

            Approximately 63% of adult men reported drinking alcohol in the last 30 days. (Men 24%) were two times more likely to binge drink than women during the same time period.

            Men average about 12.5 binge drinking episodes per person per year, while women average about 2.7 binge drinking episodes per year.

            Most people who binge drink are not alcoholics or alcohol dependent.

            It is estimated that about 17% of men and about 8% of women will meet criteria for alcohol dependence at some point in their lives.

            Injuries and deaths as a result of excessive alcohol use

            Men consistently have higher rates of alcohol-related deaths and hospitalizations than women.

            Among drivers in fatal motor-vehicle traffic crashes, men are almost twice as likely as women to have been intoxicated (i.e., a blood alcohol concentration of 0.08% or greater).

            Excessive alcohol consumption increases aggression and, as a result, can increase the risk of physically assaulting another person.

            Men are more likely than women to commit suicide, and more likely to have been drinking prior to committing suicide.13-15

            Clearly we need to teach young men about the problems associated with alcohol.
          •  Parents are failing their children. (10+ / 0-)

            Society is failing our children.
            Boys should be able to see naked women walking by them without giving in to baser instincts. And this is how you know that rape is more about power than it is about sex, women see half naked men all the time and keep their lusts and hands to themselves.
            Girls, otoh, should be taught some basic self preservation lessons. Yes, self-preservation.
            This world is not as we'd want it to be. This is a dangerous world.
            I have a son who, if I may say so myself, is rather pleasing to look at. I could write you volumes as to what girls have done to get his attention. The hours of the night they'd call for him even when he tells them not to call his house. How they wouldn't care how many other girls he may be seeing or even if he was gay.
            Last week, during all the reporting about this sickening case, my daughter at school called me talk about her friend. One of her best friends, a brilliant girl, had met a young man and went out with him for a drink. When she returned she reported to her friends that he kept plying her with drinks and she kept drinking. "Why did you accept all those drinks?" her concerned friends wanted to know. This absolutely brilliant, beautiful girl replied, "I didn't want to hurt his feelings."
            My daughter was shocked!

            So we can continue to express outrage - appropriately so - at what these boys did, but know that we are all enablers. This is a societal problem to be attacked from many different angles. These are boys who have learned from what they see around them. NOBODY lifted a finger to help that girl. NOBODY!! That tells us everything we need to know.

            Maya Angelou: "Without courage, we cannot practice any other virtue with consistency. We can't be kind, true, merciful, generous, or honest."

            by JoanMar on Tue Mar 19, 2013 at 09:13:49 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  Wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong. (5+ / 0-)

            "failure to teach women the dangers of drink"
            is a problem, but it's a MUCH smaller problem than
            "teaching men to rape"

            The mis-education of those men: it's not a fine logical point "failure to teach about consent". It's a major moral point "teaching them they can use and throw away human beings".

          •  the problem is not alcohol consumption (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            maf1029, Cassandra Waites

            The problem is the rapist slipping mickies/roofies into someone's drink.

          •  She may not have drunk enough to be drunk. (0+ / 0-)

            If she was slipped a date rape drug, it could have been in nearly anything - even just a soda.

            Prayers and best wishes to those in Japan.

            by Cassandra Waites on Tue Mar 19, 2013 at 10:58:49 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

        •  Look how our society turns a blind eye to our war (15+ / 0-)

          criminals and torturers!  Our society goes after the whistle blowers.

          Look at "Collateral Murder."  Who does our country go after?  The horrible people who killed innocent people and their rescuers?  Horrible people who shoot kids and say that they shouldn't have been there?  No, the good soldier who brought this crime to light.  Private Bradley Manning.

          Our society is rife with covering up crimes and punishing the victims and witnesses to crimes.

          Is it any wonder that so many people covered up this crime and feel sorry for the perpetrators?

          Look at what our country is doing all over the world with our 7 billion dollar defense budget!  Look at all the maiming and killing!  Raping, too.

          Agent Orange.   Napalm.  White Phosphorous.  Guantanamo.  

          Look at the banksters!  Look at the Wall Street fraudsters!  They get bailed out and golden handshakes with our tax dollars.  

          This is a country of injustice.  This is a country where might makes right.  

          Information is the currency of democracy. ~Thomas Jefferson

          by CIndyCasella on Tue Mar 19, 2013 at 08:13:02 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  THIS. A thousand times this. (10+ / 0-)

            I don't want to minimize the gender and womens' rights issue here.

            But I think we have an impoverished view if we think this is just about rape. The culture of rape is part of a larger culture of violence and injustice, one that has become increasingly socially Darwinist in recent decades.


            "Raped? It's your fault for not protecting yourself, please don't rock the boat by complaining."

            Is the same as this:

            "Invaded? it's your fault for not being a better society, please don't make it worse for yourself by becoming terrorist."

            And this:

            "Tortured? It is your fault for not doing what I tell you to do. Hurry and comply so that you don't make me torture you some more."

            And this:

            "Poor and hungry? It's your fault for not being more employable and for making such bad decisions, please don't force us to imprison you for panhandling."

            And this:

            "Got shot by a gun nut? If you'd have been carrying a gun, you'd have been safe. Don't try to rid society of guns or it's likely to happen to you again."

            And this:

            "Mentally ill? What other excuses can you make up for your lousy behavior? Now that you've made that excuse, I know better than to hire someone that won't take personal responsibility like you, and I certainly won't pay a cent in taxes for 'treatment' for your inability to responsible for yourself."

            And this:

            "Illegal and marginalized as a child? Tell your parents not to break the law, and if you keep trying to get the services that you need to grow up, we'll separate you from them and deport the lot of you, whether you speak the language where you're from or not."

            And so on.

            This culture imagines human frailty and the need for human dignity to be things that only happen to the weak—and it further imagines that the "weak" are the causes of these.

            "If only you weren't so weak, I'd be inhumanly strong. Maybe if I can victimize you and your weakness into non-existence, I can be the immortal, hedonistic, amoral God I am entitled without consequences to be."

            It's a culture of supreme narcissism and supreme ideological blindness (the natural state of humans is to be infinite and infinitely powerful conspicuous consumption machines, without suffering and without end), no doubt fed by a century or more of capitalist marketing and ideology along with a historical narrative that begins by glorifying violence and the building of a society on the backs of slaves.

            The problems that we have with rape, guns, poverty, and so on are emblems of this. The Tea Party is the outcome.

            -9.63, 0.00
            "Liberty" is deaf, dumb, and useless without life itself.

            by nobody at all on Tue Mar 19, 2013 at 08:56:43 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Look at Iran. Look what happened to Iraq after (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:

              all their war toys were removed, and they couldn't fight back.  Now the warmongers are biting at the bit to attack Iran, another oil rich country.  

              Is it any wonder that in a society like ours that bullies the entire world, rapes the environment by fracking, drilling oil, mining, etc.,  and bombs, bombs, bombs anyone in their way, that they would identify with and have sympathy for the " poor lil' " rapists?

              To criminals, their victims' credibility and witnesses to the truth are the enemy.

              Information is the currency of democracy. ~Thomas Jefferson

              by CIndyCasella on Tue Mar 19, 2013 at 10:06:39 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  That was depressing. (0+ / 0-)

              But I can't really contradict any of it.

              To put the torture behind us is, inevitably, to put it in front of us.

              by UntimelyRippd on Wed Mar 20, 2013 at 07:58:35 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

        •  They're kids... (4+ / 0-)

          Kids do stupid things. They don't have a life's-worth of experience to draw upon. Their moral compasses are sipmly not developed.

          It takes an exceptional kid to stand apart from a group and speak up "that's wrong", and put a stop to a group behavior... and a kid that exceptional isn't likely to be at a party like that.

          The same kinds of things happen to a lesser degree all over the country... all over the world, in fact. I hate to sound fatalistic, but I'm not sure there is much to do about this particular aspect of this tragedy.

          Freedom isn't free. So quit whining and pay your taxes.

          by walk2live on Tue Mar 19, 2013 at 09:31:18 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  Yes they do (11+ / 0-)
      They don't get excused for torture and humiliation.
      That's why they did this to these girls.

      "Til you're so fucking crazy you can't follow their rules" John Lennon - Working Class Hero

      by Horace Boothroyd III on Tue Mar 19, 2013 at 04:41:21 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Even worse, it seems the boys planned it. (7+ / 0-)

      Some believe the victim was given drugs in a drink, but that could not be proved for a number of reasons.

      I agree on the "sick society" and its pervasiveness. The more I learn about it, the worse it gets. Here's another example from a blog on NYT:

      Among the items uploaded on YouTube was a 12 1/2-minute video of a Steubenville high school graduate who had gone to Ohio State University at an Aug. 11 party, laughing and joking about the victim, and talking about rape. It now has more than one million views.

      Ohio State University received so many complaints about the Steubenville high school graduate speaking in the video that the university issued a statement in January that he would not be returning as a student that semester.

      We cannot mistake absolutism for principle, or substitute spectacle for politics, or treat name-calling as reasoned debate. -Pres. Obama, 1/21/13

      by SoCalSal on Tue Mar 19, 2013 at 10:37:41 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  the tragedy will continue to unfold as it appears (35+ / 0-)

    some segments of the population will continue to defend "their own"  much as in the Sandusky case.  It appears the head football coach knew 2 days before the incident was reported; the asst coach had the kids show up at his house and did not attempt to rescue the girl; there are photos of at least 2 other semi-nude girls on the same carpet; and the administration of the school has done nothing to discipline its athletic dept to date.

    Additional lives will be affected (justifiably so some feel) and, I fear, that the continued repercussions of this event will be blamed on the victim.  When justice does arrive for those who facilitated this event, instead of accomplices, they will be cast as victims of the actual victim in this case    

  •  Most football players are not rapists. (10+ / 0-)

    While it's certainly true that the culture around them enabled their behavior, may have led them to believe they were untouchable, many others live the same privileged and pampered existence without ever doing such horrible things.

    These two are monsters. The fucking GAME may have brought it out of them sooner and harder than otherwise, but there is something foul in their hearts that no amount of unearned grades and even larger benefits could create.

    The tragedy concerning them is only that their punishments will be far too mild. Perhaps 2 years for one and 8 for the other because he took pictures. Still receiving special treatment. Unfit for decent society, forever.

    You show a little grit and you lands in jail.

    by cal2010 on Tue Mar 19, 2013 at 02:30:54 AM PDT

  •  Well I'll tell you who I wouldn't want to be (11+ / 0-)

    right now -- The person who gave the kids the alcohol. There is someone having some serious sleepless nights in Steubenville.

    guns are fun v. hey buddy, watch what you are doing -- which side are you on?

    by 88kathy on Tue Mar 19, 2013 at 02:58:47 AM PDT

    •  I doubt it (11+ / 0-)

      stories of footballers abusing girls, assuming sex is their right, have circulated in every town since at least the 50s

      We have no desire to offend you -- unless you are a twit!

      by ScrewySquirrel on Tue Mar 19, 2013 at 05:03:19 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  I would suggest that their (5+ / 0-)

      only fear  is that they will be arrested and charged. Doubt that they're losing any sleep due to their conscience,

      "I'm totally pro-choice in the matter of abortion. But of course I'm also so radically pro-life that I think every person from birth onward must have full and affordable access to healthcare." - Gail Collins

      by gritsngumbo on Tue Mar 19, 2013 at 08:12:58 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Yes the people who gave the kids alcohol will (0+ / 0-)

        come under the eye of retribution. I am surprised the lawyer didn't use that as a defense. This otherwise normal kid was given alcohol and acted like a non-human.

        Those people were the criminals, the rest are minors.

        guns are fun v. hey buddy, watch what you are doing -- which side are you on?

        by 88kathy on Tue Mar 19, 2013 at 09:28:36 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Intoxication is not a valid defense to crime... (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:

          the fact that it alters people's judgment and inhibitions is NOT considered a valid defense to a criminal indictment in any jurisdiction in the United States.  At best, you'd have to piggyback it into an insanity defense, where the prevailing standard is much tougher: that  the person has: a) a mintal disorder which: b) rendered the person incapable of knowing the nature or quality of their actions, or at least made them incapable of understanding that it was wrong.  However, this kind of "insanity" defense is extremely difficult to pull off where the defendants voluntarily became intoxicatged.  Basically, the defendants would have to prove they were involuntarily intoxicated to prevail on the mental element, i.e. the punch they drank was spiked without their knowledge.  Even though they were minors, by age 16 they're not going to get away with that kind of defense merely because an adult secured the booze for them.

  •  It is indeed very tragic... (11+ / 0-)

    ...that they received so little time for their crime.

    Boehner Just Wants Wife To Listen, Not Come Up With Alternative Debt-Reduction Ideas

    by dov12348 on Tue Mar 19, 2013 at 03:14:25 AM PDT

    •  Come Out Changed? Or Worse Monsters? (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:

      Ruin their lives?  Do we have a justice system in this country or not?  Depending on whether or not they learn their lesson and change the course of their lives, or turn into worse monsters during and after serving their time.  The choice is theirs and if the latter course is the outcome, well, that's what we have maximum security long term prison systems for.  Good riddance because there's not many who give two shits or less about you or your future.

      •  Justice can be seen in different ways. (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:

        One very valid type of justice is retributive.  They've already chosen to ruin their lives.  The penalty should ideally be at least somewhat in line with the crime, taking consideration of the context.

        I wouldn't give them life terms but something substantively more than they got.

        But I don't know the context - my opinion is based only on snippets I read, so it is off the cuff.

        Boehner Just Wants Wife To Listen, Not Come Up With Alternative Debt-Reduction Ideas

        by dov12348 on Tue Mar 19, 2013 at 07:34:54 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  nice companion piece to mine. -nt (4+ / 0-)
  •  Thanks for your thoughts, dear Toriach. (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Smoh, glorificus, meralda

    Well done.

  •  Invitation to House of LIGHTS (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    FindingMyVoice, meralda, bsmechanic

    (Loving Inspiration, Giving Hope To Survivors)

    A place for survivors of physical, sexual, psychological, and emotional abuse, assaults, and bullying.

    A place for the people who support them.

    A quiet place for all voices to be heard.

    A safe place where we can learn to educate, support, and protect our children and each other.

    If you would like to join House of LIGHTS, please let us know.

    [Remember, joining a Daily Kos group does not automatically deliver that group's diaries to your Stream (DK inbox). To receive House of LIGHTS diaries in your Stream, you could Follow our group (click the heart on any of our House of Lights pages).]

  •  For some reason, (21+ / 0-)

    for some time now, people seem to think there should be no consequences for their actions.  When did we come to this in our society?  Let's go back to Nixon - no consequences for his actions (a pardon instead). GW took us to war in Iraq - no consequences.  Wall Street - no consequences.  These are only three examples.  The years in-between have many examples of immoral occurrances in our society with no consequences.  Why shouldn't these boys, families, friends think there should be only a hand slap for their poor decisions?

    When I was growing up, the community was your parent.  You got away with nothing - at least I didn't.  I remember the first time I watched a TV show in the 70's where kids could be disrespectful to adults and the audience laughed (oh, how cute they were).  No consequences for bad behavior, or minimal consequences are the expectation today.

    being mindful and keepin' it real

    by Raggedy Ann on Tue Mar 19, 2013 at 05:20:27 AM PDT

    •  There's more to it (23+ / 0-)

      Whats really notable here, besides the crime itself, is the  complete lack of shame both in the crime and  in posting any gross or criminal activity on Facebook and other socil media.
      Another thing its a statement of is a complete breakdown in social values among these young people.
      that a comatose girl is there to rape and then take pictures of like a sideshow---where's the societal and parental values there?  Where's the limits? the boundaries?
      Where's the concept of decency?
      Looks like social and human values and basic decency got lost in the "Just Do It!"

      Happy just to be alive

      by exlrrp on Tue Mar 19, 2013 at 05:33:05 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  You frame the larger question, it this what FB (8+ / 0-)

        and Twitter have created.   Where did these kids learn this stuff.....what told them this was o.k.  I think we have to look beyond the town and the parents, this behavior was modeled somewhere because this level of violence is just not normal and apparently this was perfectly acceptable to a large group of this communities children.  

        •  Maybe they read Lord of the Flies (0+ / 0-)
          •  Maybe a good part of our youth has embraced a (3+ / 0-)

            Lord of the Flies culture and Twitter and FB has just exposed it to the world.  I have never heard of anything so depraved, have you.....a progressive rape.  This deserves some serious study.  There is something deeply wrong here.

            •  You could find examples in fraternities (4+ / 0-)

              I'm an old sorority girl myself, but even back in the 70s there were parties that got so out of control that anything could happen.   Discipline would break down in some houses when their was inadequate adult over sight and pretty soon things would get so out of control that the university would have to throw the whole house off campus.   I mean when things get crazy people compete to see how crazy they can get and you get mob behavior.  

              What has changed, I think, is a degree of meanness in women towards other women.   You need other women to have your back because they also help restrain the out of control behavior of men when they get into a pack mentality.

              •  That degree of meaness re: woman to woman existed (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Cassandra Waites

                then just as it does now. It was worse in the 70's. Social media has just made it more visible.

                 People  are more likely to hold the rapist responsible for their actions today, than they were 40 years ago.

                There are no good old days when it comes to attitudes of a woman's rights over her own body. Even among other women.

                I voted for the human beings.

                by denig on Tue Mar 19, 2013 at 11:34:51 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

            •  Our youth have grown up in a (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:

              Lord of the Flies culture. Look at our foreign policy and what happens on the international stage. Look at our national history. Look at the discourse on the social safety net and the economy, on immigration, on terrorism, on "too big to fail" banks, on any issue.

              Children learn their lessons well, and they are taught by the adults that raise them by political discourse in every election season.

              The lesson? Dominate or be dominated. As Sacher-Masoch once wrote, you can choose: either be hammer or anvil.

              If that is the choice that we present to people (and this is the cardinal choice that we offer as a culture, to everyone, even other nations as a whole), then we must accept responsibility. for their crimes, too, when young people do the rational thing and decide they'd rather be the hammer.

              -9.63, 0.00
              "Liberty" is deaf, dumb, and useless without life itself.

              by nobody at all on Tue Mar 19, 2013 at 09:01:02 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

        •  This isn't a new phenomenon (7+ / 0-)

          I spoke with my 64 year old mother last night and the subject of the Steubenville rape came up.  She related to me that this sort of thing went on when she was a teenager and no one even recognized that it was rape, or even depraved.  The fault lay solely with the young woman for getting drunk and spending time with boys.  The boys would assault her and brag about it afterward.  They thought it was funny.  They felt entitled.  This went on in the "nicest" neighborhoods.  Facebook or Twitter may facilitate the bragging and mocking, but it isn't to blame for the mentality or the behavior.

          "You must be the change you wish to see in the world." -Gandhi

          by Triscula on Tue Mar 19, 2013 at 10:21:03 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  I can attest to the truth of this. I'm 66. (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            kat herder, marina, Cassandra Waites

            There were no good old days for women.

            I voted for the human beings.

            by denig on Tue Mar 19, 2013 at 11:36:35 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Almost happened to me 30 years ago (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              denig, Cassandra Waites

              At a progressive university where fraternities were banned, during the first big party of my freshman year. Fortunately for me one of the young men at the party intervened and walked me home to my dorm room to hand me over to the care of my roommates. I was in no shape to consent to anything, having been on the losing end of a drinking game that I later learned was rigged for that express purpose.

              Even so, there's no doubt in my mind that I would have blamed myself had I been raped that night because I'd been drinking and because I agreed to go into a room without my friends, having no idea who else was there. And these were all "nice" young men who who planned it. They were just playing around, getting a girl drunk so they could have sex with her. No big deal.

              The women's bathroom in our library had a running list of guys whose rooms you shouldn't go to alone, and I had friends at other universities that did have fraternities who were warned about the "rape houses" they should avoid. Sadly, there's nothing new about the Steubenville case, only now you don't even need alcohol to get a girl incapacitated. Date rape drugs are easy enough to get.

              •  Thank you for writing this kat. I remember it all (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                kat herder

                too well. And I'm sure it's still going strong.  I hope this is the sea change, when all the Feminists hard work of the last 50 years finally takes hold. The primal scream of the fossilized brain, before society shifts.

                But it makes me  feel old and so sick of this fight. The alternative however is completely unacceptable.

                I voted for the human beings.

                by denig on Tue Mar 19, 2013 at 01:03:52 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

              •  I guess I am lucky, I have never run into men like (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                kat herder

                you describe.  I was lucky to have good male friends that always looked out for me if I was being stupid.  I guess I did not realize how really blessed I was.

                •  I've tried to raise my boys to be like that (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:

                  They know this story, and I hope it will give them the courage to step up if they're ever in a similar situation. I think for many men the peer pressure that gets exerted in all-male group situations can be difficult to challenge.

    •  Punishment is for hippies. Hero football players, (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      jds1978, happymisanthropy

      as upstanding tribal paragons, must be held up, because if they fall, then MORAL CHAOS.  This patriarchal problem goes all the way back to the word virtue, which in Latin basically means "manliness."  In our subconscious minds, sports/physical prowess = virtue (whereas art = moral relativism, carrying the risk of social decay).  

      The subconscious deference to partriarchal figures has been usefully manipulated by the wealthy as a major social wedge to position themselves as Job Creators who want us all to be rich, even as their behind-the-scenes actions work in the opposite, selfish direction to spread corruption.  What is so funny is that as a result, now it's we liberals who are more the actual Law & Order group, whereas conservatives are very much about Law & Order Except For The Wealthy/White/Conservative.  What you write sounds very much like what a typical member of the Moral Majority would say, but who would be thinking about women, LGBT, students, & minorities while saying it.

      Sometimes I can't believe it; I'm movin' past the feelin'...

      by Leftcandid on Tue Mar 19, 2013 at 07:55:27 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  WHAT???? (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:

        What the heck are you talking about????  The moral majority????  My comment was so far from the mm I can't believe you went there.  Oh, well, your interpretation, not mine!

        being mindful and keepin' it real

        by Raggedy Ann on Tue Mar 19, 2013 at 08:26:10 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Isn't it the same comment from a progressive (0+ / 0-)


          "Where are the consequences these days?  Why doesn't the community enforce good behavior?  What about personal responsibility?  It's a permissive environment that is the cause of this."

          We're talking about rape, greed & political corruption, whereas they are talking about sex, drugs, & rock & roll.

          The values are different, but the complaint is the same.  And I do not mean to isolate this to your comment; it is much more broadly true.  When it comes to bankster thieves & corporate corruption, we liberals are very much the Law & Order group, whereas the cons believe that the cops are harshing The Man's wealth buzz.

          Sometimes I can't believe it; I'm movin' past the feelin'...

          by Leftcandid on Tue Mar 19, 2013 at 01:38:50 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  The only thing "new" about this is social media. (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:

      When you were growing up, the same thing was happening.  

      I voted for the human beings.

      by denig on Tue Mar 19, 2013 at 11:24:04 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Oh, did you grow up in my town? (0+ / 0-)

        Not to say it didn't go on.  The town I grew up in was very much a community in that when things like this happened, it wasn't glossed over.  There were consequences for actions.  

        being mindful and keepin' it real

        by Raggedy Ann on Tue Mar 19, 2013 at 11:37:12 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  You were referring to the Country as a whole, (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:

          in claiming these things were not prevalent when you were growing up. That is simply untrue. In the 70's you had to have a third party corroborate your claim of rape, in order to even take it to trial. And it was perfectly legal to use anything a rape victim had ever done in their life, in defense of the rapist. It was in the 70's that feminists fought and changed existing laws, including the definition of rape, itself.

          One of the reasons that Feminists pushed so hard against the prevailing understanding of rape in the 70's was because so few women reported their rapes.Victims blamed themselves, because the rest of society blamed the victim.

           I was an adult with children of my own in the 70's.  What I was aware of was totally different than what I groked as a child in the same town. So I wonder, as a child, how much you actually understood about what went on.

           Still your town may have been different than the what was happening across the bulk of America. That is a good thing. An exceptionally wonderful thing! But it doesn't change the fact that conditions were worse throughout America in the 70's.

          I voted for the human beings.

          by denig on Tue Mar 19, 2013 at 12:50:09 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  And in other countries (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:

            40 years ago:


            25 years ago (quoted from here -- note that the sports connection is incidental, and not related to the crime):

            But there was a reason for Dodger’s lack of focus. “I’ve got a real story for you, Scoop,” he said to me one morning after practice. “It’s got nothing to do with hockey, though.” Dodger’s real story, the one that had been playing on his mind constantly, and which he told me in pieces over a few days when I passed the time helping him look for pop cans, began the Easter weekend of 1995, when Dodger was back home in Regina, Saskatchewan. He and Al, his best friend and an old hockey buddy, had been on a jag, hitting bars, going to parties, the same sort of things I did when I was around his age and living in the same city. On Sunday night, after drinking beer and Southern Comfort in the parking lot beside a hockey arena, Dodger was too ill to carry on. Al borrowed Dodger’s fleece hockey jacket, took Dodger’s bottle of Southern Comfort, and went downtown with another friend, Steve, to pick up a hooker. Unable to coax a prostitute into the car, Al hid in the trunk until they found a woman willing to get in with Steve. She was a Saulteau woman from the Sakinay Reserve named Pamela Jean George.

            “I was watching the news the next night with another friend,” Dodger said, “and a story came on about the murder of Pamela Jean George, and my friend said, ‘Can you keep a secret?’ I go, ‘Sure.’ He goes, ‘They killed her.’ ” Al and Steve, white boys from the well-to-do south end of the city, both athletes, popular, good-looking, had, according to Dodger’s friend, taken Pamela Jean George to the outskirts of town, where she had given them oral sex. Al and Steve then took her out of the car, brutally beat her, and left her for dead, facedown in a ditch. Al split for British Columbia the next day without saying good-bye to Dodger. Steve stuck around. One week passed. Another week. Dodger was constantly sick to his stomach. He thought it was only a matter of time before they would be caught. He didn’t know about Betty Osborne, a Cree girl from The Pas, who was pulled off the street and killed by local white boys in 1971. In Betty Osborne’s case, the open secret of who had done it was kept for nearly sixteen years until, at last, in 1987, three men were charged and one was convicted of second-degree murder.

            Finally, with no news of the investigation and the growing prospect that Al and Steve would never be caught, Dodger felt that he was going to crack. At a friend’s wedding reception, he told someone who he knew would tell the police. A couple of days later, while Dodger was watching an NHL playoff game, the police called him. “The cops wouldn’t have had a fucking clue,” Dodger said to me. “They were looking for pimps, prostitutes, lower-class people.” Dodger was, he told me, scheduled to testify against Al and Steve in a few weeks, and he was finding it difficult to concentrate on hockey.

            “I’ll tell you what I’m really bitter about: people hinting that it’s all my fault. The guy who told me about it in the first place came up to me at a party and said, ‘I know this may sound harsh, but I’m going to have a tough time feeling sorry for you because I know it got out at the wedding reception.’ And I was like, ‘Who the fuck are you to talk to me? Show a little nuts.’ This guy tries to play the role, like it’s been really tough for him. I heard girls were calling him and saying, ‘I feel so sorry for you, losing your friends. If you need someone to talk to I’m always here.’ If girls called me I’d say, ‘Fuck you. Don’t feel sorry for me, feel sorry for Pamela Jean George.’ "

            To put the torture behind us is, inevitably, to put it in front of us.

            by UntimelyRippd on Wed Mar 20, 2013 at 08:18:54 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

  •  I fail to see a reason why HS football even exists (11+ / 0-)

    It is an extremely dangerous sport with possible/probable long term brain injury to those who play it, especially adolescents whose brains are still developing.

    My child will never play that sport, I'll tell you that.

    (-5.50,-6.67): Left Libertarian
    Leadership doesn't mean taking a straw poll and then just throwing up your hands. -Jyrinx

    by Sparhawk on Tue Mar 19, 2013 at 05:30:31 AM PDT

    •  Feeder system for the pros. (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      BYw, jds1978

      *Are we humans or are we dancers?* Annie Lennox (thx Words In Action & OPOL)

      by glorificus on Tue Mar 19, 2013 at 07:13:28 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Tricky subject. As a young guy, I wanted nothing (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      vahana, zett, cal2010, Cassandra Waites

      more than to play football in high school. My parents wouldn't let me, and my mom in particular was highly anti-physical-force.

      That's great, but it's also naive. Young guys have a lot of internal angst to apply physical force to things. I certainly did, and it was pre-ideological. I'd hypothesize that it's an evolutionary and developmental dimension of maleness in some cases (no doubt there's wide genetic variation) that leads to the need to hit, push, and grab stuff.

      If we don't give them football, we need to bring back apprenticeships where they can use tools, lift heavy objects, and so on.

      I know this will bring out a certain pushback—some will say that I'm a sexist, others will say that I'm essentializing cultural training to be biological imperative, and so on—but having lived through pre-teen and teen years as a young man, I can say that I just needed to sweat and scream and grunt and grimace a lot.

      Sport seems to be where we have channeled much of this energy, but I'd be happy to see it directed more constructively toward industry and craft. But right now those options don't exist in most young mens' lives, and the alternative if we don't give this a constructive channel is that they direct it in inappropriate ways—destruction of self and others and property. That's what I did. At fifteen, it was immensely satisfying to put dents into sheet metal with my body. It mortified my mom. But I was also taught not to direct it at people by same mom.

      Now it would just hurt my hands, feet, and head, but then—then, I had a deep need to do it.

      Just imagine what could have been done with that energy if I'd had an apprenticeship or a project of some kind that could have harnessed it. This begins to get into a separate topic, but I think we're wasting young men as a resource in this country, every bit as we're wasting young women.

      The young have energies of all kinds that we simply try to suppress or channel into consumption and self-serving, instead of embracing and channeling into problem-solving and production for all.

      -9.63, 0.00
      "Liberty" is deaf, dumb, and useless without life itself.

      by nobody at all on Tue Mar 19, 2013 at 09:09:00 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Great idea! (3+ / 0-)
        If we don't give them [boys] football, we need to bring back apprenticeships where they can use tools, lift heavy objects, and so on.
        Providing apprenticeships could promote community economic development as adolescents and young adults gain jobs and build careers based on the skills they learn. I bet some would rather choose that track to adulthood than rack up student loan debt going to college.

        “I will believe corporations are people when Texas executes one.” — found here

        by vahana on Tue Mar 19, 2013 at 09:51:15 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  Fuck jock culture. (24+ / 0-)

    I played interscholastic sports in public school - soccer and lacrosse - and I say fuck jock culture.

    Kill interscholastic sports in high school. They are a waste of time and money and they support a culture that is ignorant at best, and at worst....

    But, but, where would colleges get their athletes, then?

    Kill collegiate athletics, too.

    If students need exercise, there's gym class and intramurals. They can form independent sports leagues. Go to the gym in open hours. Start a lacrosse club. Ride a bike to school.

    40% of young people are fat. It is ludicrous to drown high school athletics in money while over a third of the student body gets winded just climbing to their seat in the bleachers.

    There is also a repulsive kind of personal behavior that accompanies and is fostered by the macho school sports ethos. Anybody who participates has experienced this, or been part of it, or been influenced by it until maybe they grow up and get sick of it.

    I'm the plowman in the valley - with my face full of mud

    by labradog on Tue Mar 19, 2013 at 05:37:57 AM PDT

    •  It's true. Locker room culture is pretty vile (5+ / 0-)

      I played football briefly in high school, and it's like stepping 100 years into the past when you walk into the locker room. Ignorance, sexism, homophobia, you name it, and very intensely so. From players and coaches alike. These kids are steeped in this environment and these attitudes for years. I can only imagine that it's the same way in college.

      Not to say that there aren't a lot good people that play football. But if one is so predisposed to do things like commit rape, the football culture definitely promotes that kind of behavior. Not to mention the enabling by adults that makes these kids feel like they can get away with anything.

    •  The lone positive result of austerity (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      vahana, cal2010, Cassandra Waites

      on the public education system has been the encroaching re-alignment of high school athletics as a "pay-to-play" activity. Of all the activities high school can provide, athletics has been given the highest priority despite providing the smallest long-term benefit for the fewest number of students. Factor in the cultural cost of elevating a privileged few over the rest of the student body due primarily to physical size and gender, and it becomes a net negative.

      I remember loathing the time I had to spend at games because of my participation in pep band. Nobody ever bussed football players out of town to watch the concert band perform at state competition! I still play music (and have done so semi-professionally, even), but I'd bet it's been a long time since any of the jackasses on the football team touched a ball. And suffice to say, none of 'em ever made it to the NFL, either.

      My other car is a pair of boots.

      by FutureNow on Tue Mar 19, 2013 at 07:55:33 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Animal House (10+ / 0-)

    The problemi is that the entire town, the kids and the adults were living the American Dream, the Hugh Heffner dream.   They felt that this is what kids should be doing -- drinking and partying and foolin' around.   They've all seen the movies, and it is in the nature of kids to imitate what they see, and what they see is Animal House.   A kegger.  A rave.   That's what kids do, right?    Hold parties, drink trash can punch, pour beer down the beer bongs, take a hit, and grab some ass.   Right?    I just came back from the beach, and there were Spring Breakers on each side of us.   They were tamer this year.  Last year, they were having sex on the beach, and throwing furniture off the second floor.   Those were college kids.   What our high school kids aspire to be.   Spring Breakers.  

    A group in town crowded out on the front deck, and it collapsed, sending many of them to the hospital.  

    Spring Break.   Take a hit on the beer bong, put on your thong bikini and hit the beach.   Mardi Gras.   Tear your shirt off and show off your beads and drink another Hurricane.   Saint Patrick's Day where the rivers and the beer flow green.    

    We all know that's what kids are supposed to do.   Drink, tear off your clothes, and go with it.

    They did what they were supposed to do, what our culture tells them they are supposed to do.   I sort of understand that shell-shocked look on those kids faces.  They were kids.  Someone handed them some dynamite and a match, and said, "Go ahead.   Light up.  It'll be a blast!"  

    Our culture is obsessed with sex.   We obsess over it, glorify it, and then treat it like a capital crime.   We're bipolar on the subject.   This year's superbowl show looked like a strip tease.   The whole country gasped in collective horror and fainted when Janet Jackson's top slipped.  Yet, the most popular recent movie was Hunger Games, where kids are forced on pain of death to hack other kids to pieces.  Good family entertainment.   Why would kids think it's right to abuse another kid?    Where would they get THAT message from, I wonder?  

    What do we want out of our kids?

    Is it any wonder that they are confused?


    •  This is not about sex (15+ / 0-)

      It's about seeing other people as less than you, as objects to serve your purposes. Feeling entitled to dominate and humiliate others. Sex is a very different thing from rape.

      "Today is who you are" - my wife

      by I Lurked For Years on Tue Mar 19, 2013 at 07:01:58 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  True, but it is all about MEEEE! (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:

        And everything that DFWmom noted is exactly the same.

        It's ME.  Never you or your feelings, but only ME and mine.  Always.

        And when you put a fucking smartphone in their hands and their whole life is spent looking at the machine, instead of the humanity around them....well, Stuebenville is really not that surprising.

        So, throw the book at every single person even tangentially involved in the debauchery.  Because it's not JUST running around in a thong.  it wasn't just drinking some beers and throwing up.  It was rape....hours of it.  With jackals watching and disseminating child pornography.

        David Koch is Longshanks, and Occupy is the real Braveheart.

        by PsychoSavannah on Tue Mar 19, 2013 at 11:25:10 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  that assumes (0+ / 0-)

        to say that rape is only about power is to assume that sex can be separated from social power.  It can't.  Sex and money are how a capitalist society keeps score.

        Your end of the Constitution is sinking.

        by happymisanthropy on Tue Mar 19, 2013 at 12:17:52 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Sigh. (0+ / 0-)

        Prove it.

        To put the torture behind us is, inevitably, to put it in front of us.

        by UntimelyRippd on Wed Mar 20, 2013 at 08:24:43 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  Spring breakers vs. Steubenville: (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      glorificus, Siri, ChurchofBruce

      the vast majority of girls on spring break go to the beach or the parties on purpose. They are not rendered unconscious and dragged there. Most of the sex that goes on is consensual. At least in the beginning of the festivities, the people involved know what they are doing.

      There is drunken debauchery and there are the crimes of really sick fucks. What the boys in Steubenville did was the latter.

      261.A wealthy man can afford anything except a conscience. -Ferengi Rules of Acquisition

      by MaikeH on Tue Mar 19, 2013 at 07:03:55 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Precocious rapists - ahead of their time (3+ / 0-)

        This girl might disagree.

        And, These girls might also disagree.

        Several kids watched while this girl was raped on spring break.

        The only real difference between these High School rapists in training, and real graduate level Spring Break rapists, is that they were a couple years younger.  That's the reason this got so much attention.   If they had managed to wait a couple years, they'd have been a headline, but not a national media storm.

        These kids were just a bit precocious.  They weren't supposed to learn how to throw rape parties for a few years yet.

    •  Couple that with a lost sense of personal (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:

      privacy, and you have what we've witnessed in Steubenville and elsewhere.

    •  Sorry to interrupt your rant and all, but (3+ / 0-)

      did you see the freakin' movie (which is no longer close to recent in teen years)?

      Yet, the most popular recent movie was Hunger Games, where kids are forced on pain of death to hack other kids to pieces.  Good family entertainment.   Why would kids think it's right to abuse another kid?    Where would they get THAT message from, I wonder?  
      You think was presented as a good thing?  The kids in the movie are forced to participate in a sick game that most of them despise and don't want any part of.
      A group in town crowded out on the front deck, and it collapsed, sending many of them to the hospital.
      Obviously, sober kids would have weighed a lot less.

      income gains to the top 1% from 2009 to 2011 were 121% of all income increases. How did that happen? Incomes to the bottom 99% fell by 0.4%

      by JesseCW on Tue Mar 19, 2013 at 07:39:40 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I was thinking the same thing. (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:

        (I've also wondered, idly, how many instances of rape would occur in a Hunger Games-type scenario.  Nothing of the sort happened in the books, but that may just be because the author was writing a YA book.)

        •  Probably none. Remember that the games were (0+ / 0-)

          being monitored and recorded 24/7 with things including but not limited to cloaked drones (with antigravity tech so they could hover).  If anyone tried anything like that the people in charge would switch on a hazard or release some genetically engineered creature to force them to stop what they were doing and run.

          You have watched Faux News, now lose 2d10 SAN.

          by Throw The Bums Out on Tue Mar 19, 2013 at 08:37:02 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Probably true, assuming that's what they wanted. (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:

            Like they did with the kid in a years-ago Game who went cannibal and started eating his victims.  The Gamemakers killed him with a landslide so as not to have a complete psycho as Victor.

            ... and now I wonder if that wasn't a euphemism/metaphor.

          •  Actually (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:

            If you did see the movie, you'd realize that rape is great TV entertainment in the capital.  They'd probably zero in for a closeup and provide live commentary.  There certainly was no concern for the welfare of any of those kids.  Just concern about the entertainment value.

            •  And Capital City is presented very clearly as (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Batya the Toon, Cassandra Waites

              a sick culture.

              income gains to the top 1% from 2009 to 2011 were 121% of all income increases. How did that happen? Incomes to the bottom 99% fell by 0.4%

              by JesseCW on Tue Mar 19, 2013 at 09:00:05 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  And what are we? (0+ / 0-)

                What are we, that we dream up that sick culture, and choose it above other entertainment, as OUR entertainment?  

                Are we, as we sit there watching the kids hack themselves to pieces, The Capitol, perhaps?

                That's what my thirteen year old daughter said to me a few days ago.  She looked around, and then said to me...

                "WE are in The Capitol."

                •  It's even worse when you realize that there is (0+ / 0-)

                  a very good chance that what you are seeing in the hunger games (and any other movie/book) is actually happening (ok, has happened, is happening, and will be happening all at once) and that turning it off or just not watching/reading it won't stop it either.

                  You have watched Faux News, now lose 2d10 SAN.

                  by Throw The Bums Out on Tue Mar 19, 2013 at 09:37:15 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                •  We're human. (3+ / 0-)

                  And sometimes we like entertainment that's bloody and violent, and sometimes we like entertainment that makes us gasp and say "that's horrible" and feel superior to those other (real or fictional) people.

                  And sometimes we like entertainment that holds up a mirror to show us just how horrible certain aspects of our society and/or humanity can be.

                  I think it would be interesting to poll fans of the Hunger Games and see how many of them recognized the similarities between this society and our own, and how many of them thought the mirror was just a window.

                •  Do you understand the concept of "Dystopia" and (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Batya the Toon

                  why it's a long used literary tool?

                  income gains to the top 1% from 2009 to 2011 were 121% of all income increases. How did that happen? Incomes to the bottom 99% fell by 0.4%

                  by JesseCW on Tue Mar 19, 2013 at 03:17:46 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

            •  While it's true they cared not a whit (0+ / 0-)

              for the welfare of any of those kids ... I think Terry Pratchett's line applies here: Like many people with no actual morals, they do have standards.

              Cannibalism was going too far, for them -- or perhaps not so much "going too far" as just icky.  Rape in the Hunger Games never came up in the movie or the book; we don't know whether they would have considered it icky or entertaining, although either one is plausible.

      •  I saw the movie (0+ / 0-)

        I saw the kids hacking each other to death.  I did see the kids who supposedly trained for it and took pride in it.


        •  The handful who "took pride in it" were (0+ / 0-)

          presented as * villains*.

          income gains to the top 1% from 2009 to 2011 were 121% of all income increases. How did that happen? Incomes to the bottom 99% fell by 0.4%

          by JesseCW on Tue Mar 19, 2013 at 08:59:09 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  I get it. (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:

            I get it.   Don't 'dis the movie.  You live in The Capitol.  It's great entertainment.

            •  You really *don't* get it. It's like you think (0+ / 0-)

              people are sick for reading 1984 (not to put them on remotely the same plane in terms of literary merit).

              income gains to the top 1% from 2009 to 2011 were 121% of all income increases. How did that happen? Incomes to the bottom 99% fell by 0.4%

              by JesseCW on Tue Mar 19, 2013 at 03:24:14 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  BS!! (0+ / 0-)

                Scientifically, we know that exposing people to repeated images of violence desensitizes them to violence.

                So, your argument is that we expose kids to repeated images of violence which will have the effect of desensitizing them to violence, presented as a form of entertainment, in order to make the point of how awful it is to be desensitized to violence or to make violence a form of entertainment?

                I call BS!   This movie was made for one purpose and one purpose only -- entertainment.   The motive was to get as many butts in seats in the theatres as possible.  

                And, kids went to this movie for one purpose and one purpose only -- entertainment.

                If we, as a society, view this movie as "educational", then it would be presented in schools, not movie theatres.

                And, none of that addresses the real psychological impacts of showing the violence and deaths of children on the real children who attended this movie, in the real world.   So, it's an interesting question if "teaching" this "lesson" is likely to reduce violence to the same degree that desensitizing children at an early age to violence by exposing them to repeated images of violence, is likely to increase it.   Is it a net gain, or a net loss?    

                The message/lesson in this movie is not sufficient to excuse it for the violence porn that it aims at children.

                I do appreciate the irony of a movie making an argument against its own existence, a violence porn movie arguing against violence porn.   I just wish it had won its argument.


      •  Why do YOU think sober kids weigh less? (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:

        I didn't say sober kids weigh less.  YOU did.   You were being deliberately snarky and disrespectful, putting words into my mouth so that you could then sarcastically demonstrate what stupid words that they were.  The problem with that, is that the stupid words came out of YOUR mouth, not mine.

        What sober kids might realize, that drunk kids might not realize, is that fifty kids on a deck might be a dangerous thing.    

        Maybe the spring break kids next to my house last week, if they had been sober, might have realized that leaving a fire untended for over three hours, with a strong wind coming off the ocean, near tinder dry beds of sand dunes along a beach full of wooden houses was not wise.   If they had been sober.   The cops who got called on them (I didn't call them.  I just watched their fire to make sure they didn't burn my house down), might have spoken to them about that.

        Scientifically, the symptoms of alcohol toxicity include poor impulse control and impaired judgment, among other things.    These effects of alcohol can contribute to a person's decision to engage in rape, or to overload a structure, or to make unwise decisions in how to manage a fire, or impair their driving, or all kinds of other unwise decisions that can result in lasting harm to themselves and others.

        That what alcohol affects.

        Although, alcohol does help one to develop a substantial beer gut over time.  But, the beer gut stays, even after you sober up, if you ever do.

        •  Oh. (0+ / 0-)
          You were being deliberately snarky and disrespectful
          Did you pick up on that?

          You think only drunk kids over-crowd porches?  Seriously?

          Your primary complaint seems to be that someone somewhere might be enjoying themselves.

          It's the kind of "Get off my lawn" rant one normally expects to hear only when John McCain thinks his mic' is off.  Weird rant about beer guts included.

          income gains to the top 1% from 2009 to 2011 were 121% of all income increases. How did that happen? Incomes to the bottom 99% fell by 0.4%

          by JesseCW on Tue Mar 19, 2013 at 03:27:39 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  I have no problem with kids enjoying themselves (0+ / 0-)

            I have a problem with kids being encouraged by adults to engage in behavior that is excessive, and leads to dangerous incidents.

            We have created and encouraged a culture of excess.   Children see these images and imitate them, and adults encourage them, and then, when it goes too far, the adults responsible for allowing the kids to get into this much trouble, hide behind the kids, and let the kids take the blame.

            These high school kids wanted to be just like the college kids, the Spring Breakers.   The Spring Breakers drink to excess, and then do stupid things that endanger themselves, endanger their communities, like collapsing porches, leaving their fire untended, throwing furniture that doesn't belong to them out of second story windows (leaving property owners to pay for it, and hopefully not crushing whoever was standing below the window.  This happened next door).      You don't have to look far to see the dangerous behavior.  It was to the left and to the right of us.  

            Have fun, yes.   Hurt people and burn things down?   No.

            Google "spring break rape" and read what you see there.    

            Then, Google "Spring Break Death".

            I want kids to have fun.    Rape is not fun.   Alcohol poisoning is not fun.   Broken arms and legs and backs are not fun.   Death is not fun.

  •  PSU (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Heart of the Rockies, jds1978

    Is this not the same mentality?

    •  not quite (0+ / 0-)

      Sandusky's rapes were seen as horrible, but the witnesses were mostly too afraid to speak publicly.

      Steubenville, the witnesses blamed the victim.

      I guess there's a common element of denial.  And football.

      Your end of the Constitution is sinking.

      by happymisanthropy on Tue Mar 19, 2013 at 12:23:31 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  How about the other tragedy? (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Jay C, No one gets out alive

    A young girl was given the message that being "popular" and running with the right people, i.e., football players, was more important than being "good," i.e., forming solid friendships, taking advantage of her educational opportunities, developing a sense of her own personal worth.

    What happened to her was unquestionably the fault of the young men. But if she had been instilled with a sense of her own worth, there is no way she would have allowed herself to be vulnerable to this despicable and inhuman attack.

    Again, I'm not blaming her. I'm blaming the adults who distorted those boys' characters, and the adults who minimized the girl's self esteem, and deceived her to believe that getting drunk and going to a party with athletes would somehow improve her status among her peers.

    It shouldn't have happened to her, no matter how drunk and vulnerable she was. Among reasonable humans, a drunk and vulnerable teenager would be protected, no attacked. In a culture where girls are valued as much as boys, she would never have been so vulnerable.

    Wealth doesn't trickle down -- it rises up.

    by elsaf on Tue Mar 19, 2013 at 06:09:26 AM PDT

    •  Wow (15+ / 0-)

      You're making a lot of assumptions here.  She's a teenage girl.  Teens (all sorts) like to go to parties and hang out with members of the opposite sex.  There's nothing inherently "bad" about this.  She made a mistake that many girls and women have made: she trusted the wrong people.  This can (and does) happen to ANYONE.  It's not an indication of low self-esteem or failing to recognize educational opportunities or an inability to form solid friendships.  She's young and inexperienced, which makes her (and any teenager) more vulnerable to being deceived, but it does not mean that she (or her parents) are to blame for the deceptive and violent behavior of the people who treated her like a piece of trash.

      And before you protest that you're not blaming her, go re-read your post.  You are blaming her.  You're asserting that there was something immoral or self-loathing about her acceptance of an invitation to go to a party with her peers.  You cannot know what sense of self-worth she was instilled with based on her choices that night.  

      "You must be the change you wish to see in the world." -Gandhi

      by Triscula on Tue Mar 19, 2013 at 06:22:36 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  If the boys' behavior... (0+ / 0-)

        ... drinking, having sex in an impaired state was wrong, then the same applies to girls.

        The girl was drinking before she went to the party. That left her in a vulnerable state.

        You can't put the responsibility for avoiding bad situations entirely on one sex or the other. Either way, its sexist.

        It is everybody's responsibility to protect the vulnerable. It is everybody's responsibility avoid vulnerability. If both sides (vulnerable, aggressive) are responsible, nothing bad happens. If either side either side behaves responsibly, nothing bad happens. If both sides behave irresponsibly bad things happen.

        What happened to Jane Doe is unconscionable. The boys deserve any and all punishment they receive -- any probably more than they will receive.

        The entire group of teens (some of whom, I'm assuming were teenaged girls) who watched and didn't try to stop it deserve our scorn and punishment.

        But it's not sexist to tell all teens, not just girls: Don't get drunk. It leaves you vulnerable. If you're drunk, you may crash your car and die, you may do things that will affect the rest of your life, you may not be able to protect yourself from things other people do to you.

        Boys are taught by our culture not to be vulnerable. Girls need to be taught the same thing. That's where our culture fails miserably. We teach girls they need to meet boys' expectations to be whole.

        That's the failure of our society.

        Wealth doesn't trickle down -- it rises up.

        by elsaf on Tue Mar 19, 2013 at 06:43:09 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  The boys weren't "having sex" (13+ / 0-)

          They committed rape. They violated an unconscious person. Big difference.

          261.A wealthy man can afford anything except a conscience. -Ferengi Rules of Acquisition

          by MaikeH on Tue Mar 19, 2013 at 07:08:33 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Didn't the victim testify that she went with (0+ / 0-)

            Trent Mays to the second party because she trusted him.

            He had started pursuing her before the party, and she thought he was interested in her, and she was open to dating him.

            She didn't know he was recruiting her to star in his own porn fantasy.

            "They did not succeed in taking away our voice" - Angelique Kidjo - Opening the Lightning In a Bottle concert at Radio City Music Hall in New York City - 2003

            by LilithGardener on Tue Mar 19, 2013 at 07:32:24 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  If there is a niche for "Completely unconscious (0+ / 0-)

              girl" porn, I haven't encountered it.

              income gains to the top 1% from 2009 to 2011 were 121% of all income increases. How did that happen? Incomes to the bottom 99% fell by 0.4%

              by JesseCW on Tue Mar 19, 2013 at 07:41:41 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  I wouldn't know (2+ / 0-)

                but it seems clear that they were accustomed to filming and photographing each other and were somewhat compulsive about reporting their actions to their friends, as if they were seeking approval for what they were doing and for what they could get away with.

                "They did not succeed in taking away our voice" - Angelique Kidjo - Opening the Lightning In a Bottle concert at Radio City Music Hall in New York City - 2003

                by LilithGardener on Tue Mar 19, 2013 at 07:54:45 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

        •  They were all under age. (5+ / 0-)

          NONE of them should have been drinking.  That they were drinking so openly and brazenly indicates a total failure on the part of the adults in the community to create a wholesome atmosphere for their youth and to monitor the activities of the kids.

          •  That they were drinking to such grotesque (4+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            elsaf, Kimbeaux, Joe Bob, Cassandra Waites

            excess shows exactly what's wrong with the American approach to regulating alcohol.

            When I was 20 I escorted a group of 15 to 18 year old French and Italian exchange student to Tijuana.  Out of 20 kids, only one got a little unsteady on his feet.  They all had plenty of money and this is back when no one carded down there.

            This uncontrolled massive consumption by the underaged is the direct result of a drinking age of 21.

            income gains to the top 1% from 2009 to 2011 were 121% of all income increases. How did that happen? Incomes to the bottom 99% fell by 0.4%

            by JesseCW on Tue Mar 19, 2013 at 07:44:49 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  I'm not certain there are facts to support (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:

              your assertion.  As I recall, when the drinking age across the country was raised to 21, auto fatalities due to alcohol consumption dropped. A lot.

              And when there was no such thing as age-related laws on alcohol consumption (pre and post Civil War era), drunkenness and alcoholism were rampant. That was the origin of the Temperance movement.

              •  The "Temperance" movement gave us Prohibition (0+ / 0-)

                and a wave of crime that forever changed this country, making it a far more violent place.

                I am specifically talking about extreme binge drinking.  Not drunk driving (which has massively fallen for all age groups thanks to stepped up enforcement and public education campaigns) or the general percentage of alcoholics not in recovery (see Bill W. for that, not Carrie Nation).

                The "Kegger" and the Beer Bong are purely American innovations.  A great night when you're 19 in Spain isn't drinking until you have to go to the ER for alcohol poisoning, it's sharing a bottle of wine with two friends.

                Sneaking around and dodging cops and drinking in secret goes right along with over consumption.  Hell, even with prohibition, we saw a smaller number of people drinking but those who did drank a lot more.

                I have to be crystal clear about this - what I am saying is only about the American culture of underage binge drinking.  I do not agree with the person up-thread that women and girls who choose to drink are in any way responsible for getting raped.

                income gains to the top 1% from 2009 to 2011 were 121% of all income increases. How did that happen? Incomes to the bottom 99% fell by 0.4%

                by JesseCW on Tue Mar 19, 2013 at 08:30:29 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  The Temperance movement resulted in an (0+ / 0-)

                  over correction, but the earlier freely flowing alcohol did not result in any kind of self restraint, as you suggest it might.  Culture is clearly involved, but there are plenty of alcohol problems in Scandinavia and eastern Europe, as well as France, so it's not simply American culture.

                  Religious prohibition appears to work pretty well--Christian Science, Mormons and Muslims.  But that abstinence is freely chosen, not imposed.

                  I am not advocating for imposed prohibition.  

                  •  I am specifically talking about extreme (0+ / 0-)

                    binge drinking.  

                    I've known plenty of Mormons who struggle with alcoholism, and there's a reason Christians run liquor stores in many Muslim countries.

                    income gains to the top 1% from 2009 to 2011 were 121% of all income increases. How did that happen? Incomes to the bottom 99% fell by 0.4%

                    by JesseCW on Tue Mar 19, 2013 at 08:57:31 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                  •  Part of that was the differences in what alcohol (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    Heart of the Rockies

                    was available.

                    The French are in a wine-grape-friendly region. The rest of Europe has various grains as dominant fermentable crops, leading to all sorts of beers and related drinks.

                    Note that neither of these is usually distilled.

                    America? Corn whiskey and fruit brandy, both distilled, along with some beer. We even fought our first internal war over taxing whiskey because it was such an important regional product - and there are places where that war has never actually ended.

                    There is an actual song that starts: "My daddy, he made whiskey, his daddy, he did too, and we ain't paid no whiskey tax since 1792."

                    Americans traditionally drank higher proof alcoholic beverages than Europeans. Get drunker quicker and end up being the country with the reputation, even when other countries have their own problems with alcohol abuse.

                    It wasn't the pre-Prohibition culture that did it.

                    Prayers and best wishes to those in Japan.

                    by Cassandra Waites on Tue Mar 19, 2013 at 10:38:52 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

              •  Evidence to support JessieCW's claim (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Researchers at the Center of Alcohol Studies at Rutgers University found that raising the drinking age to 21 simply shifted fatalities from those aged 18 to 20 to those aged 21 to 24. They concluded, on the basis of their exhaustive federally-funded study, that drinking experience, not drinking age, is the most important factor.

                Socialist? I do not think that word means what you think it means.

                by Kimbeaux on Tue Mar 19, 2013 at 08:47:52 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

        •  Yes you can. In a decent group of people others (11+ / 0-)

          would not encourage and then pounce like a predator on a fellow human being. I was with a group of "supposed" friends when I was a young woman. We were sitting around talking and drinking lightly. Except for one young woman who was being targeted by two of the guys. they kept plying her with liquor, making jokes about what a sissy she was and packing her drinks with extra alcohol. She got drunk and then she got sick so she went outside. The two young men went out and raped her on the front sidewalk. At first the rest of us were unaware of what was taking place. Until we heard her screaming stop... We ran out and stopped the guys...

          So that was her fault because she stupidly trusted that she was not just "prey"? What upset me most is that no one wanted to report them and the pressure was on her to keep her mouth shut because it was "her fault"... Not theirs for taking advantage of her trust. This is one of the critical parts of just WHY rape is bad. It is a total loss of trust in human beings and a shaming and degrading of ones own self valuation. It is a breakdown in human interactions where one satisfies whatever needs for domination and self aggrandizement take precedence over behaving in a "civil" manner. It is sexual libertarianism.

          Rape is an act of dominance. It is a tool to devalue someone to the point they have no choice what happens to their own body and no choice in who they reproduce with. It devalues a human being into a tool for another to elevate themselves in their own minds and those of others who cheer them on. The victims are just supposed to remain silent and take it because they were weak. When you re-enforce the idea that it is a victims fault to trust that they are not a "thing" to boost someone else's feelings of powerfulness.

          I went out with a group of people one night. We went dancing and when we returned home to student housing I went back to my apartment. One of the guys who we thought was a friend came to my door and told me his car wouldn't start. So I let him in to use my phone. He attacked me. So in your scenario it was my fault since I had had a few drinks and let him in.  I was able to get him off of me before he succeeded in rape but I will never accept that it is always partly the women's fault. Because it is that idea which encourages rapists. If they can get a women or a child into a position where they can do em they always have that attitude to encourage them to take advantage.

          I can remember my stepfather saying it was just natural for the powerful to use the weaker or more vulnerable however they want. Problem with that idea is that they rely on certain attitudes of "Oh well, they shouldn't have been vulnerable ... it was their Lolita behavior, their clothes, their walk, their smile, their flirting, their drinking, ..." to give them permission to use another without regard to how they are hurting them and damaging their own world. To me that is the most painful legacy of being assaulted... Diminishment is a large part but so is the resulting lack of being able to trust that others will not pounce on  any sign of vulnerability for nothing more then amusement and self-aggrandizement.

          Seems to me that this idea of overly trusting as being a reason to admonish the victim says something incredibly nasty about males.

          Fear is the Mind Killer...

          by boophus on Tue Mar 19, 2013 at 07:39:22 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  "Avoiding bad situations"? (6+ / 0-)

          I can't get over the ignorance you're bandying about in these awful posts of yours.

          You talk about rape as a "bad situation" like it is the inevitable outcome of teenagers being drunk together in a mixed-sex group.

          IT IS NOT.

          Rape is a crime of violence that is perpetrated by a tiny minority of savage individuals.  The vast majority of teenagers are perfectly able to attend a drunken party and NOT RAPE ANYBODY.

          Why do you seem to think a drunk girl is automatically going to get raped, and it's automatically her fault?  Don't try to deny it with these long-winded denials and equivocations, either.  Just admit that you think drunk girls are at least partly responsible for their own rapes, and I can commence simply ignoring you forever because I just have no patience with your kind of rape apologism.

          •  This is touchy (4+ / 0-)

            Because you can feel that the rapists were 1000% responsible, and still wish she hadn't been drinking.

            (Yes, from what I understand, it was possible she'd been slipped a drug--if true, that's different, but let's assume, for the purposes of what I'm about to write, that she wasn't drugged.)

            It's touchy, because, the closest I've seen to anyone "blaming the victim" was my 17-year-old daughter.

            We were talking about it, and her first reaction was, "Well, that could never happen to me."

            "B., anyone can get raped," I said to her.

            "Well, of course," she replied, "but I'm talking about the specific situation. I don't get drunk, and I'm not stupid enough to go to parties with football players. I go to non-drinking drama club parties. "

            When we hashed it out, she did say that, no, she wasn't blaming the girl at all, that the rapists should've been locked up for a long time, and that they were scum.

            But she also said, "I don't want to get raped. I can't identify every single rapist on the planet and send them all to jail. But, since I don't want to get raped, I don't get drunk and I don't hang around the football team. Cuts down the odds, anyway."

            "Maybe: it's a vicious little word that could slay me"--Sara Bareilles

            by ChurchofBruce on Tue Mar 19, 2013 at 09:11:57 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

        •  You absolutely can put the entire responsibility (9+ / 0-)

          for not raping people on the person doing the raping.

          It ain't sexist.

          income gains to the top 1% from 2009 to 2011 were 121% of all income increases. How did that happen? Incomes to the bottom 99% fell by 0.4%

          by JesseCW on Tue Mar 19, 2013 at 07:45:46 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  Ok then, how about we do a little test. Under (4+ / 0-)

          medical supervision (you supply the doctor) you will be given Rohypnol or a similar "date rape drug" and we will see how well you are able to avoid being in such a position.

          You have watched Faux News, now lose 2d10 SAN.

          by Throw The Bums Out on Tue Mar 19, 2013 at 08:04:46 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  Besides... (7+ / 0-)

        ... most of what happened to her wasn't a result of her "choices." She was passed out, for crying out loud.

        261.A wealthy man can afford anything except a conscience. -Ferengi Rules of Acquisition

        by MaikeH on Tue Mar 19, 2013 at 07:06:24 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  Yes you ABSOLUTELY ARE BLAMING HER. (5+ / 0-)

      What kind of bizarre snobbish arrogance leads you to believe you can read this girl's mind, and impute to her all these negative motives you assume in your ignorance?

      A teenager attends a party because she wants to have fun with her peers, not because "society has told her it's a status symbol to run with football players" or some shit!  She was a personal friend of Trent Mays, who drugged and raped her!  What the hell is wrong with you??

      •  Besides - who cares? What if she did want to (4+ / 0-)

        get together with the popular football player?

        It would change nothing.

        income gains to the top 1% from 2009 to 2011 were 121% of all income increases. How did that happen? Incomes to the bottom 99% fell by 0.4%

        by JesseCW on Tue Mar 19, 2013 at 07:49:08 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Exactly! What if she were the biggest (6+ / 0-)

          football-player groupie in history, who was the sort of weak-minded person who only ever wanted to hang around football players because they're the cool kids in town?  That is not a crime.  Violating her while she's unconscious, however, IS a crime.  

          It is utterly impossible for me to fathom how any intelligent person can possibly find a way to equivocate between the two.  God, but you can see how the American rape culture persists when we have its proponents even at a supposedly forward-thinking place like Daily Kos, can't you.

    •  Midnight in the Garden of Good and Evil (0+ / 0-)

      Part of the problem is the concept of "good" and "bad".    Only the good die young.   Heaven for the weather, Hell for the company.   However you say it, being "good" is not an effective message.

      The message that I give my kids is not about what's "good" or "bad".   The message that I give them is about their own self interest.   Form solid friendships because it is advantageous to you.  It increases your happiness, decreases your stress, and provides you with resources to rely on when you are in need.    Take advantage of your educational opportunities because there's money in it for you, and because if you don't, there's hardship in it for you.   Stand on your own two feet, because if you don't, then whoever is propping you up is going to be calling the shots and  you'll have no choice but to go along.    Working for money is a forty hour a week job.   Being beholden to someone else who earns the money is a 24-hour a day, 7-day-a-week job, and you don't even get a paycheck for it.   Make wise choices, not so you will be "good" and people will admire you for your "goodness", but to avoid danger and discomfort and unpleasantness and to make a richer, more comfortable and enjoyable life for yourself.  

      But, I agree with you.  The rape victim was more vulnerable to this attack due to certain  things that the parents could have done to keep her safe and nurture her, which they did not do.

  •  The coaches need to answer for their actions (5+ / 0-)

    A successful football team is very tight knit. The coaches knew...all of them to some degree. These young men looked up to their coaches, yet incredibly, the coaches were acting as enablers! Disgusting! This would seem to be a perfect venue for a Grand Jury investigation.

  •  In other words, it's a classical tragedy in (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Batya the Toon

    that it's the hero's (or in this case, "hero's") own moral failings that bring him down.  Very different than what most people think of when they hear that word.

    You have watched Faux News, now lose 2d10 SAN.

    by Throw The Bums Out on Tue Mar 19, 2013 at 07:53:02 AM PDT

  •  Rape happens...a lot more than you think. There (5+ / 0-)

    are so many rapists out there running around who never were reported, let alone convicted.

    The CNN reporters shock us, but that is how a lot of people think.  Oh, the poor fellows!  

    You know why?  

    Because a lot of people sexually assault women, and a lot of people know people who have sexually assaulted women and are ever so glad that their friends, sons, brothers, fathers, uncles, away with it.  

    Sexual assault is a crime for which the victim goes on trial.  

    If a girl gets drunk, they think she has it coming to her.  If her skirt is too short, neckline too low, is too naive, too gullible, anything that makes her vulnerable, she has it coming to her.  

    If a thief steals a diamond ring, does the defense ever say to the judge or jury, "Hey, that diamond was just asking to be stolen.  The people who owned that diamond were just flaunting it" ?

    Information is the currency of democracy. ~Thomas Jefferson

    by CIndyCasella on Tue Mar 19, 2013 at 07:59:04 AM PDT

  •  Henry Rollins (13+ / 0-)

    Henry Rollins Comments On Steubenville Rape Verdict

    It is obvious that the two offenders saw the victim as some one that could be treated as a thing. This is not about sex, it is about power and control. I guess that is what I am getting at. Sex was probably not the hardest thing for the two to get, so that wasn’t the objective. When you hear the jokes being made during the crime, it is the purest contempt.

    So, how do you fix that? I’m just shooting rubber bands at the night sky but here are a few ideas: Put women’s studies in high school the curriculum from war heroes to politicians, writers, speakers, activists, revolutionaries and let young people understand that women have been kicking ass in high threat conditions for ages and they are worthy of respect.

    Total sex ed in school. Learn how it all works. Learn what the definition of statutory rape is and that it is rape, that date rape is rape, that rape is rape.

    There are no sacred cows.

    by LaEscapee on Tue Mar 19, 2013 at 08:27:13 AM PDT

  •  This story is so wrong on so many levels (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    LilithGardener, Cassandra Waites

    Back in my teens (late 70's), there were many occasions where I or my friends drank to the point those kids did that night. Never would it have been accepted to do or watch or stand by as these kids did.

    Never would it have been acceptable for parents to not get a grasp of what had happened and insist on responsibility.

    Never would it have been acceptable for a coach or teachers to cover this up.

    I realize there has always been bad people and bad acts. However this utter disregard for decency and respect for this girl is just astonishing.

    And for Candy Crowley and others at CNN to show pity for these boys who will spend 1 or 2 years in juvenile detention is just nuts.

    •  Don’t idealize the past. (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Cassandra Waites

      As a broad generalization, I can’t imagine many scenarios where, in terms of how sexual violence was treated, women fared better 40 years ago than they do today. If you think something never would have happened amongst your friends’ parents or other authority figures, I fear you overestimate their morality. I was a young child in the 70s but just amongst people I know I have since learned of some pretty heinous things that happened back then. They weren’t even covered up per se, no one did anything about it because that was “just the way it was.” When I think back to that time you could have a situation where someone could say, “We will never speak about this again.” And people didn’t!

      I think the main thing that makes events of today seem astonishing is that kids are walking around with video cameras and mass communications devices, i.e.: cell phones, in their pockets – and they have been conditioned to “share” things. Ergo, there is evidence of what happened and we learn about it.

      Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend. Inside of a dog, it's too dark to read. - Groucho Marx

      by Joe Bob on Tue Mar 19, 2013 at 12:38:01 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  so very very true (0+ / 0-)

    and the reaction by some is ll the proof needed as to how right you are

    In the time that I have been given,
    I am what I am

    by duhban on Tue Mar 19, 2013 at 08:42:23 AM PDT

  •  Two girls were arrested today, charged with (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    zett, denig, Cassandra Waites

    sending threats to the victim.  What kind of world is this, when other females show no empathy to someone  of their own gender who was brutally raped.

    If you don't stand for something, you will fall for anything - unknown

    by incognita on Tue Mar 19, 2013 at 08:57:29 AM PDT

  •  Thanks to social media all this came to light (0+ / 0-)

    BTW, all universities have ethics training, this is also needed at all schools. It will help to protect victims and protect young people from committing crimes that they later regret.

  •  Nothing will be damaged (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    Steubenville will go right back to what it was when the media coverage blows over. In a few years, another rape like this will occur and it too will be covered up.

    It's a dwindling city of shitkickers and air pollution, with a corrupt police department that is still under a consent decree.  These are people of the land. The common clay of the new Ohio. You know... morons.

    Traci Lords is from Steubenville - perhaps that explains their attitude towards girls.

    Liberalism is trust of the people tempered by prudence. Conservatism is distrust of the people tempered by fear. ~William E. Gladstone, 1866

    by absdoggy on Tue Mar 19, 2013 at 09:16:49 AM PDT

  •  Power and control (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    denig, cal2010, Cassandra Waites

    This was not about sex. It was rape.

    These teens were granted crowns and revered for their athletic abilities in a game of aggression. Power corrupts, even social power.

    More will come out as a result of the grand jury investigation. By no means has the entire story been told.

    My brain keeps noodling about the term "Rape Crew" associated with Steubenville. I like to think it has interested Ohio AG DeWine, too.

    When Anonymous called for a gathering in Steubenville (around the time of the initial investigation and pre-charges), several young women from the area told the crowd their stories of rape and sexual assault (without naming anyone). The event was plea for justice in this case. The sheriff promised the matter was under investigation. We have seen the initial results. But this case is not over.

    Remember, rape is about power and control.

    In a room where people unanimously maintain a conspiracy of silence, one word of truth sounds like a pistol shot." ~ Czeslaw Milosz

    by Caneel on Tue Mar 19, 2013 at 10:37:05 AM PDT

  •  Shut down the Football Program (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    denig, cal2010, Cassandra Waites

    There is absolutely no reason that that school should have a football program after this.

    It should be shut down immediately.  We have at least TWO coaches who had a flock of drunk teens, including one in a coma from date rape drugs, at their homes.  Only one of those two were put off by this and threw them out, and even that one only told them to leave.

    Hell, apparently some of the rape happened AT those coach's properties.

    Shut it down.  In 5 years, once everyone involve has graduated, open it back up.  Until then -- no football.  It's a game, it's a privilege, and they have NOT earned it.

  •  I agree with you (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    cal2010, Cassandra Waites

    But I think there is more going on that that even.  If I had free reign to do what I wanted without reprocussions I wouldn't be raping anyone, even if I had been convinced that women are lesser beings.  These kids displayed a sociopathic lack of empathy and I think that they had to at least have had the foundation of that long before they were involved in football.  A year in jail seems mighty short for what they did.

    I wish we could move our society away from valuing toughness in the form of violence and brutality and more towards valuing learning and creativity.

  •  D (0+ / 1-)
    Recommended by:
    Hidden by:

    D. Rape is an understandable response to not enough girls being willing.

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