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Bad bills make for bad laws.

Highlights:

"HB 1224 places impossible enforcement decisions on
Colorado law enforcement. To effectively enforce HB 1224, Colorado law
enforcement would need to be able to determine: 1) whether a magazine is
“designed to be readily converted;” 2) whether a magazine was in existence prior
to the ban; and 3) whether a magazine had been in continuous possession since
the enactment of the ban."

Simply put, prosecutors would have no way of knowing weather the 30 round magazine you have is grandfathered or not, unless you tell them.  A defendant pleading the 5th typically does not meet the states burden of proof.

Magpul is an industry leader in AR-15 parts, accessories, and magazines.  Since any magazine manufactured in Colorado would have to be date stamped, they have decided to move out of the state, taking the company, their taxes, and jobs, elsewhere.

Better argued by Magpul's lawyers then myself:

https://www.dropbox.com/...

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Comment Preferences

  •  What, pray tell, does a 30-shot clip have to (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Clem Yeobright, looty

    the 2nd Amendment?

    It's only purpose is to kill as many people as possible.

    Love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we'll change the world..-- Jack Layton

    by sturunner on Wed Mar 20, 2013 at 09:27:26 AM PDT

  •  Land mines on I70 and I25? (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Clem Yeobright

    Wyoming and Utah sure aren't going to ban anything firearm related.

  •  Agreed... (5+ / 0-)

    They should remove the fucking grandfather clause.  There is no need for private ownership - period.

    'Guns don't kill people, video games do - paraphrased from Lamar Alexander (Sen-R-TN)'

    by RichM on Wed Mar 20, 2013 at 09:34:20 AM PDT

  •  Damn lucky you stumbled across that letter! (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    sturunner, RichM, Piren, Cartoon Peril

    I'd probably have to google for days to find something in so obscure a location to bolster my case - if I were making your case.

    Sure looks like you're right:

    6-year-olds must die by gunshot.

    There's just no possible alternative.

    Too late for the simple life, too early for android love slaves - Savio

    by Clem Yeobright on Wed Mar 20, 2013 at 09:36:31 AM PDT

  •  Well... (5+ / 0-)

    There are plenty of control-type laws in the US where, when ownership of a thing cannot be outlawed, selling and transportation of it across state lines can.  High-capacity clips can be banned from being sold. Lots of such clips are already owned privately, and those can't be touched by the law. (This is one of the main arguments of the gun fetishists against any forms of control--but there's already so much out there now!)  But restricting the further manufacture and selling of these tools for mass murder is, at the very least, a step in the right direction.

    •  but therein lies the problem... (0+ / 0-)

      The law is a state law, banning manufacture within the state of new 30 round magazines.

      it doesn't address existing magazines, can't address how magazines are manufactured out of state, and thus, has no way to prove that a given magazine was manufactured before or after 7/1/13.

      Here's the kicker, it was written this way so it could (narrowly) pass.  Look at what happened to the magazine ban at the national level, and how similar bills in other states are (not) progressing.

      With no way to enforce date of manufacture on any given magazine, the State has no way to prove that you didn't own it prior to July 1st 2013.  

      It only passed as written, and as written it can't be enforced.  This is a bill which does absolutely nothing and can be used by the republicans as a wedge issue, for absolutely no gain!

      Bad laws are worse then no laws at all.

  •  Go ahead (0+ / 0-)

    Suck on Magpul's dick.

    And, by the way, do you believe everything a lobbyist says?

    "Well, I'm sure I'd feel much worse if I weren't under such heavy sedation..."--David St. Hubbins

    by Old Left Good Left on Wed Mar 20, 2013 at 10:13:05 AM PDT

    •  Let's play a little game ... called (5+ / 0-)

      Guess the Poster:

      This is not about ratings abuse, troll-rating, or rating in general.  This is about the quality of their posts, which are characterized by illogic, venom, obscenity, and abuse.
      The solution to the puzzle is here: http://www.dailykos.com/...

      Al winners may claim their free Magpul magazine by contacting the manufacturer directly ... and don't forget your please and thank-yous.

    •  No matter which side of the issue (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      ancblu, Utahrd, Neo Control

      you happen to fall on, the legal repercussions are the same...

      An unenforceable law wastes everyone's time.

      I don't own any of Magpuls products.  I don't live in the state of Colorado.  I have no dog in this fight.  I see political capital being wasted in an impotent bill, which does nothing, and is easily circumvented.  

      I see an old red state turning bluer in somewhat of a delicate purple status right now passing a bill which delivers nothing and potentially risks our progress.  These are some points I feel we can agree on.

      •  So (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Piren

        This really is a topic that you are completely unqualified to comment on?

        "Well, I'm sure I'd feel much worse if I weren't under such heavy sedation..."--David St. Hubbins

        by Old Left Good Left on Wed Mar 20, 2013 at 11:51:45 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  The juxtaposition of this comment (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Neo Control

          with your sucking dick remark supra strikes me as amusing.  It would imply you believe yourself qualified ... no?  

        •  nice ad-hom... (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Utahrd, ancblu

          While I don't live in Colorado, I live in Illinois ( a state with strict gun control laws)  So I can comment on how effective a law is or isn't by how well it's written compared to laws I live by.

          While I don't have anything made by Magpul, I do own firearms.  I know what a 30 round magazine is because I own them.  I know what is/isn't stamped on a magazine body, so I feel qualified to comment on how easily it is to tell when a given magazine was manufactured.

          In addition I served in the Army for ten years as both an enlistee and an officer, infantry and artillery (11b, 13d and 11a) so I'm well qualified to speak about small arms in general and M16/M4/AR15's in particular.

          I have a degree in a business field, so I feel qualified to speak about economics, and manufacturing processes (in general) and operations (in particular).

          Theres my qualifications to speak on the topic, where s yours?

          •  I'm a reprobate! (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            KVoimakas

            After years of Utahns going to Nevada or Wyoming to buy booze or fireworks; it will be pretty funny to see Coloradoans come here to buy high-capacity magazines.

            That's my only qualification on this matter.  Being a reprobate.

          •  Except that (0+ / 0-)

            you don't understand the law, or its effects.

            For example, you claim:

            Simply put, prosecutors would have no way of knowing weather the 30 round magazine you have is grandfathered or not, unless you tell them.  A defendant pleading the 5th typically does not meet the states burden of proof.
            Well, no.  That isn't how it works.  A prosecutor could quite obviously determine whether a magazine was sold recently by obtaining sales records.

            And, as pointed out above, you mistakenly believe that the bill prohibits manufacturing magazines in Colorado.

            "Well, I'm sure I'd feel much worse if I weren't under such heavy sedation..."--David St. Hubbins

            by Old Left Good Left on Wed Mar 20, 2013 at 01:37:11 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  how will they get those sales records? (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              KVoimakas

              And where?

              How do you know where I bought MY magazines from, if I don't tell you?  How are you going to subpoena private citizens?  Nobody has that kind of blanket subpoena power, iirc.

              I'm familiar with the law as written.  I don't know if you're familiar with how state laws work, and  for a misdemeanor no less...

              "(b) IF A PERSON WHO IS ALLEGED TO HAVE VIOLATED SUBSECTION
               (1) OF THIS SECTION ASSERTS THAT HE OR SHE IS PERMITTED TO LEGALLY POSSESS A LARGE-CAPACITY MAGAZINE PURSUANT TO PARAGRAPH (a) OF THIS SUBSECTION (2), THE PROSECUTION HAS THE BURDEN OF PROOF TO REFUTE THE ASSERTION"

              •  Huh? (0+ / 0-)

                You think law enforcement doesn't have subpoena powers?  The ability to obtain search warrants?

                BTW, the government generally has the burden of proof in every criminal trial as to every element of the crime.

                "Well, I'm sure I'd feel much worse if I weren't under such heavy sedation..."--David St. Hubbins

                by Old Left Good Left on Wed Mar 20, 2013 at 03:03:17 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  You're still not getting how it works... (0+ / 0-)

                  How is the DA/SA/Law Enforcement/Easter Bunny going to know where you got the magazine from?  Especially when theres no serialization on existing magazines?

                  Guns can be traced because they're serialized... Find a hot Glock at a crime scene?  Glock will tell LE who (always a FFL or LE/Government agency) they sold it to.  FFLs keep a book of who they sold a firearm to for 20 years.  This is how a handgun can be traced to who the dealer sold it to.

                  Magazines do not have this feature... there's no way once you identify the manufacturer of a magazine to know who they sold it to, or when.  Theres no exisitng laws which call for any system of uniform marking of magazines (which are essentially disposable items).  

                  There's no way NOW for the State to prove you didnt' have the magazine prior to 1 July 2013 by looking at existing magazines, and unless all other states adopt magazine laws requiring new mags to be dated/serialized (and federal laws banning the import of foreign magazines).

                  Considering the case load of the average SA/DA, do you really think they'll bother for a class 2 misdemeanor in the first place?

                  •  Receipt? (0+ / 0-)

                    Sales invoice? Testimony?  Box in the trash?

                    Basically, you're a concern troll.

                    "Well, I'm sure I'd feel much worse if I weren't under such heavy sedation..."--David St. Hubbins

                    by Old Left Good Left on Wed Mar 20, 2013 at 05:06:12 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Name calling when the facts are against you... (0+ / 0-)

                      I know your kind well.

                      Sales invoice?
                      -you need to know where I bought it, and if I don't self-incriminate, you can't find that out on your own. Theres no way to tie a given magazine to a given purchase.

                      Testimony?  
                      -You need to know where/who I bought it from to get testimony.  If I don't give you this, you have no way to find it on your own since magazines have no traceability on their own.

                      Box in the trash?
                      -explain to me, how you'll retroactively find my trash for a given day/week/month/year ago?  

                      keep in mind that the penalty for somebody getting caught breaking the law is a class 2 misdemeanor!

                      You keep ignoring two key facts:

                      1) Theres no traceability of magazines now.  this law only codifies some way to trace magazines made in the future and only in Colorado (after Magpul leaves if they do as they claim, no magazines will be made in Colorado)

                      2). Without self-incrimination, you have no other way for the state to meet the burden of proof, since the magazines themselves offer no way to let the state know when and whom have owned them and for how long.

                      This isn't concern trolling, this is a matter of fact.

                      •  Seriously? (0+ / 0-)

                        I don't suppose your remedy for the alleged unenforceability is to strengthen it.  That's what makes you a concern troll.

                        Your statement number 2 is just stupid.

                        •  I suppose your wrong. (0+ / 0-)

                          My remedy is, go whole hog, get on the record. stand for what you believe in, and try to and ban them all outright.  Thats the only thing that would make sense logically, if a new 30 round magazine is too dangerous, then so is an older one, period.  Stand and/or fall with your principles intact.

                          A lesser solution (more likely to get votes), all magazines without a special, hard-to-forge engraving are banned.  This only grandfathered-in magazines are the ones that people submit to the state for special engraving, all others are banned.  Voila, problem solved, you can tell at a glance which magazines are grandfathered in and which aren't.  And if you serialize the engraving, you now have traceability.

                          I don't like these ideas, and like I said, I don't live in Colorado, but if that was the law of my land I'd have to follow it.  I have to follow laws in Illinois I don't agree with, but I simply HAVE to until they get repealed or I move.  Thats life in a society that values the rule of law.

                          Realistically, though, I don't think they had the votes for proposals like that.  And I don't like unenforceable, easy-to-circumvent laws because, again, they do absoultely NOTHING,

                        •  As for statement number 2... (0+ / 0-)

                          How is it just stupid?

                          How can you trace a magazine, with no serial number, no stamped date, and 4 interchangeable parts (1 of which you'd replace every so often, two of which you'd replace easilly when they break or wear out)?

                          How can you trace a magazine that you can buy from either another person, or a store, or online with no requirement for record keeping?

                          If it's stupid, prove me wrong.  Show me how you can trace a part that nobody keeps track of, that hardly anyone bothers to stamp, and up until now you could buy anywhere from 10-15 bucks?

  •  A 30 round mag is very useful (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    ancblu, KVoimakas

    if you are hunting varmints like woodchucks, coyote, rats or feral hogs.  The Army uses them because when shooting back at someone it often takes several rounds to stop the other guy, and missing is not uncommon.  Add in the idea of "suppressive" fire, where you shoot at the person attacking you with the intent to hit them but knowing they are keeping down behind an object.  By putting rounds on their area, you force them to stay down and not shoot back at you.  

    They are also useful for target shooting and many three gun competitions.

    But you don't need them for hunting, most states have rules on the number of rounds you can have loaded not because "if you can't hit in X you don't need to be shooting" but to limit the number of animals you can hit in a short time.  

    the waterfowl example is limited to 5 in my state because you can take up to five.  With more rounds you could take 15 to 30 easy if you're a good shot.  So to prevent depletion the limit is placed on the number of rounds.

    How ever, for varmints, most states remove that limit with the intent to let you get as many as you can, hence the wild dog control will use 20 and 30 round mags with their .223 AR-15.

    But this is not about hunting is it.

    Stupid question hour starts now and ends in five minutes.

    by DrillSgtK on Wed Mar 20, 2013 at 10:16:40 AM PDT

    •  Waterfowl With .223 Bullets? (0+ / 0-)

      What fool would shoot waterfowl with a .223, unless they were only shooting to kill, and not to eat the quarry?

      What a stupid waste!

      You said it...

      You meet them halfway with love, peace and persuasion, and expect them to rise for the occasion ~ Van Morrison

      by paz3 on Wed Mar 20, 2013 at 10:44:53 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  that fool (0+ / 0-)

        would be committing a crime in most states.

        Nobody uses a rifle for waterfowl hunting because no state allows it, the range of a rifles projectile would make it too dangerous to do so, and the speed and size of even a relatively large target, such as a goose, would be improbable to hit.

        The better question is, why do folks still trot out hunting as some yardstick for firearm ownership, when the 2nd amendment is not about hunting?

        •  Hunting (1+ / 0-)

          certainly does support 2A interests that underlie the government's identified interest to have a civilian population adequately experienced and capable of serving within a militia function.  The linkage is actually quite clear.

          And as a restraint on governmental overreach underlying the entire Bill of Rights, the activities of hunting, self-defense, collection and target/sport would all constitute reasonably contemplated activities in the individual exercise of the enumerated 2A private right.

      •  Ok I was not clear on this. (2+ / 0-)

        Rifle's are not used to hunt waterfowl, but shotguns are.  You can get shotguns that take mags, and a 30 round mag does exist.  You would get a lot of ducks with that.

        But a .223 to go after rats, feral dogs, feral pigs, you want a 30 round or more.

        Stupid question hour starts now and ends in five minutes.

        by DrillSgtK on Wed Mar 20, 2013 at 03:16:19 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  If you use a .223 on hogs (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Neo Control

          bring several 30 round magazines and give yourself the advantage by climbing the tree first.

          Anyone whos been boar hunting once AND familiar with the .223 round will have a hard time denying the merit of a 30 round magazine while remaining intellectually honest.  

          Rec'ed for the "30 or more" referenced for hogs.

  •  it is unenforceable as written which is why NY did (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    ancblu

    the law to just outright ban them.  It use to have a 'grandfather' clause exempting anything made before 1994, but that has been removed.

    So now under the SAFE act, any mag, clip, or device that holds more than 10 rounds is illegal, and it is now illegal to put more than 7 rounds in a 10 round mag. (some debate is going on over is the round in the chamber part of this 7 limit)

    So yes, it is unenforceable as written (and it bans just about all mags because they can be "easily converted" to hold more.)

    Stupid question hour starts now and ends in five minutes.

    by DrillSgtK on Wed Mar 20, 2013 at 10:25:51 AM PDT

    •  Gotta love that one (4+ / 0-)

      The NY SAFE Act means that New York, which has long criticized other states for being source of guns used in NY crimes, has created a law so that the only legal way for the prohibited weapons and accessories to be sold is...to sell them to someone in a different state.

      Brilliant.

      •  Funny, my personal belief (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Shamash, Neo Control

        is that the issue of gun control is never going to go away, and we'll never see anymore good (i.e solidly written, enforceable) gun control laws in our lifetime.

        The biggest benifiaries of the gun control debate are lobbyists (who receive and submit donations, to..), politicans (who receive donations from activists, and are often themselves or controlling interests in..) lawyers and law firms.  Oh, and firearms manufacturers who sell more guns when people think they might lose the right to bear them.

        Poorly written laws which go nowhere don't help the hoplophobes, they don't help gun owners.  They only extend the life of a controversy to suck more money out of supporters on both sides.

        Call me cynical, but why else would such poorly written laws get passed?  The politicians may be dumb, but they aren't stupid.

      •  Not true... (0+ / 0-)

        you can turn them into the State Police.  In fact they recommend that corse of action for that very reason.  (that and the mandatory buy back was kept out of the bill along with the restriction to 5 rounds in a mag, insurance, mandatory security of guns, limits on ammo and limits on the number of mags a person can own.)

        However a good first step has been made, all "legal" assault weapons now have to be registered with the State Police (not the local Sheriffs who are making political hay saying they won't enforce the law).  This lets the Police know where these weapons are, allows them to track them, and if the law changes, the State Police can retrieve the guns that are banned.

        Stupid question hour starts now and ends in five minutes.

        by DrillSgtK on Wed Mar 20, 2013 at 03:23:07 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  This... this is it, right here... (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Neo Control

          "This lets the Police know where these weapons are, allows them to track them, and if the law changes, the State Police can retrieve the guns that are banned."

          This is why folks talk/worry/conjecture about registration/confiscation.  This is why a registry has no traction nationally.  

          This is the classic rebuttal for 2A folks when antis say "Come on, nobody is coming after your guns!"

        •  Heh. (0+ / 0-)
          This lets the Police know where these weapons are, allows them to track them, and if the law changes, the State Police can retrieve the guns that are banned.
          Exactly why I support the ongoing boycott of the law in the question.

          Noncompliance is the last line of defense for New York residents.

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