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Before I begin I should say I've never shot this caliber and no doubt there are people at DK with a lot more knowledge about it, but hey, lack of knowledge of a subject never keeps folks from writing about things here right?

I'm writing today about a new cartridge from Winchester, the 17 caliber super mag. The photo above is hugely enlarged so that you can actually see the thing. The actual diameter is less than 1/5 of an inch. Probably about this __ distance across if your monitor is adjusted like mine.

Over the past decade or so there has been a renewed interest in very small, very fast bullets.

This is the old 22 that everyone is familiar with, actually called a 22lr, for long, and rifle.

Below is the 22 magnum which many might also be familiar with. It shoots the same bullet as the regular 22lr but faster due to it's longer length case and also thicker case to withstand higher pressures. The regular 22lr loses accuracy before 100 yards due to the transition from supersonic to subsonic, the 22 magnum can shoot with high accuracy out past 100 yards. For you gun nuts the "maximum point blank range" is 125 yards.

The 22lr was developed a couple centuries ago, the 22 magnum last century, and this century we have the 17 calibers. That's it for rimfires, oh ya, the topic of this post, rimfire. Rimfire refers to the tiny explosion which causes the powder in the entire cartridge case to explode. In a normal cartridge (center fire) there's a little percussion cap in the center of the bottom of the cartridge hit by the firing pin. In a rimfire the edges of the case have a tiny amount of percussive that is hit by a firing pin to set the whole thing off.

To get an idea of how rimfire cartridges are made here's an educational video.

This century some genius took the enlarged strengthened 22 magnum case, necked it down (narrowed the diameter at the end) to .17 inches and put in a tiny ballistic tipped bullet. The resulting 17hmr (Hornady Magnum Rimfire) has become very popular. The tiny bullet produces recoil of about 1/100th of the most common center fire in America, the 30-06. The 17hmr sprints along at about 350 feet per second faster than the old 22 magnum. Enough to reach on out to 150 yards. I know this all sounds like just so much plinking, but to a bored farm kid and his sister, being able to plink cans or prairie dogs way out past the back fence is a lot of fun. Below is the 17hmr sitting next to the ubiquitous 22lr. Bigger case, smaller bullet.

Finally following this same formula, smaller bullet, bigger case, we come to the object of this post the 17 caliber Winchester Super Mag. I've yet to figure out what the nickname will be.

For any new cartridge like this you have to first find an already produced casing, that way you have something to fill without starting from scratch. The 17 caliber Winchester uses a 28 caliber casing that was already in use for those construction nails they blast into steel beams called ramsets. Bigger case, light bullet. 3,000 feet per second for something not much bigger than a grain of rice. Now there is a rimfire able to reach out well beyond 200 yards with accuracy.

Rimfires cost less than centerfire cartridges. Ignoring the 22lr cartridge which costs pennies, typically a box of 50 rimfires costs less than a box of 20 center fires.

Last of all for fun I've pasted this photo of some common cartridges.

#1 and #5 are both 17 calibers. #1 is for a pellet gun, #5 is the very popular 17hmr. #2 is the very popular 22lr which is the most shot cartridge in the US, and #14 is the 30-06, the most common hunting rifle caliber.

1. .177 pellet
2. Federal 40gr .22 Long Rifle
3. Magtech 115gr JHP 9mm Luger
4. American Eagle 230gn FMJ .45acp
5. CCI 17gn Polymer Tip .17 Hornady Magnum Rimfire
6. Magtech 125gn Lead Flat Nose .38 Special
7. Winchester Super X 158gn JHP .357 Magnum
8. Federal 240gn JHP .44 Remington Magnum
9. .300 Whisper
10. Remington 55gr PSP .223 Remington
11. Winchester Super X 170gn Silvertip .30-30 Winchester
12. Remington 150gn Core-Lokt PSP .308 Winchester
13. Remington 180gn Core-Lokt PSP .303 British
14. Remington 180gn Core-Lokt PSP .30-06 Springfield
15. Federal 3" #6 .410-gauge
16. Federal 2.75" 20-gauge rifled slug
17. Winchester AA Lite Handicap target load 2.75" #7.5 12-gauge

This post is being made to a DK group called Liberal G Club, a group begun by annieli. A place to discuss shooting not the politics of guns. I thought it would be fun to write a post just about shooting. I have very little experience with target shooting or different types of calibers, rifles, etc. My apologies in advance for any mistakes.

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Comment Preferences

  •  Still an interesting read... (12+ / 0-)

    even if not highly sought after subject matter here - thanks for writing.

    Your black cards can make you money, so you hide them when you're able; in the land of milk and honey, you must put them on the table - Steely Dan

    by OrdinaryIowan on Sun Mar 24, 2013 at 10:35:41 AM PDT

  •  thanks for the informative post (15+ / 0-)

    I've never fired #18 but look forward to maybe building that gun especially with the rectangular rifling

    Warning - some snark above‽ (-9.50; -7.03)‽ eState4Column5©2013 Acedia is essentially a flight from the world that leads to not caring even that one does not care

    by annieli on Sun Mar 24, 2013 at 10:37:18 AM PDT

  •  on a serious note (10+ / 0-)

    one of these new rounds may eventually, given the glacial pace of innovation in the shooting sports, become the standard for international competitive target shooting

    Warning - some snark above‽ (-9.50; -7.03)‽ eState4Column5©2013 Acedia is essentially a flight from the world that leads to not caring even that one does not care

    by annieli on Sun Mar 24, 2013 at 10:44:38 AM PDT

  •  Plinking with lead ? (8+ / 0-)
    I know this all sounds like just so much plinking, but to a bored farm kid and his sister, being able to plink cans or prairie dogs way out past the back fence is a lot of fun.

    Citing risks to birds and to human health, roughly 100 environmental groups formally asked the federal Environmental Protection Agency this week to ban or at least impose limits on lead in the manufacturing of bullets and shotgun pellets for hunting or recreation.

    The use of such ammo by hunters puts about 3,000 tons of lead into the environment annually and causes the death of 20 million birds each year from lead poisoning, said Jeff Miller, a conservation advocate at one of the groups, the Center for Biological Diversity. Consumption of meat from animals that are shot with lead bullets also contributes unacceptable levels of the metal into people’s diets, Mr. Miller said in a phone interview.
    Hunters Embrace Lead-free Ammunition Regulations
    More New Non-toxic Bullets Available to Prevent Condor Poisonings

    SACRAMENTO, Calif.— The California Department of Fish and Game last week reported that so far, 99 percent of hunters in California have been in compliance with new state hunting regulations requiring the use of non-lead ammunition in the range of the California condor in central and southern California. Fish and Game law enforcement announced at the February 5 California Fish and Game Commission hearing that of 6,500 hunters contacted in the field since the new regulations went into effect last July, only 63 warnings and nine citations needed to be issued for illegal possession or use of lead ammunition in the condor range.

    Winchester® Varmint LF .17 NTX® Lead Free Rimfire Ammo

    Drop the name-calling MB 2/4/11 + Please try to use ratings properly! Kos 9/9/11

    by indycam on Sun Mar 24, 2013 at 10:45:29 AM PDT

    •  Lead Is a Serious Issue (8+ / 0-)

      Even the responsible shooting ranges make it possible for shooters to clean up after practice to wash potential lead residue off one's hands and face before heading back into public.  If the ranges recognize the potential danger, then everybody should acknowledge the issue.  

      "Love the Truth, defend the Truth, speak the Truth, and hear the Truth" - Jan Hus, d.1415 CE

      by PrahaPartizan on Sun Mar 24, 2013 at 10:50:57 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  clearly a no-brainer if only mfgs would listen (7+ / 0-)
        Three alternatives lead the pack:
        Iron (Steel)
        Tungsten polymer
        Other alternatives (such as tungsten, tin and zinc) have been trialed and ammunition manufacturers are constantly seeking out improved alloys, coatings and other enhancements...

        Warning - some snark above‽ (-9.50; -7.03)‽ eState4Column5©2013 Acedia is essentially a flight from the world that leads to not caring even that one does not care

        by annieli on Sun Mar 24, 2013 at 11:01:41 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  and on a center-fire note (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Otteray Scribe, ancblu
          Barnes Multi-Purpose Green (MPG) Bullets 22 Caliber (224 Diameter) 55 Grain Hollow Point Lead-Free

          Developed for military and law enforcement applications, these bullets feature a frangible, powdered-metal copper-tin core. What sets these bullets apart from other frangible projectiles is their gilding metal jacket, which keeps the bullets intact during rough handling, feeding and firing. This, in turn, reduces gun jamming occurrences from prematurely fragmenting bullets.

          Technical Information
          Caliber: 22
          Bullet Diameter: 0.224
          Bullet Weight: 55 Grains
          Bullet Length: 0.935"
          Bullet Style: Hollow Point Flat Base Lead-Free
          Bullet Coating: Non-Coated

          Ballistics Information:
          Sectional Density: 0.157
          Ballistic Coefficient: 0.225

          Designed for use in M4, HK416 and other AR-15 firearms with a 1 in 9" or faster twist rate

          This bullet is certified by the State of California to be in compliance with the California Lead-Free Ban and meets the criteria under the Condor Preservation Act.

          Warning - some snark above‽ (-9.50; -7.03)‽ eState4Column5©2013 Acedia is essentially a flight from the world that leads to not caring even that one does not care

          by annieli on Sun Mar 24, 2013 at 11:12:30 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  Steel and Tungsten aren't legal (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          OldSoldier99, ancblu, ban nock

          Steel and Tungsten core bullets are armor piercing, and illegal to manufacture for or sell to civilians.

          I can't speak to Bismuth, but if you outlaw lead use, you effectively outlaw most legal rounds.

          •  uh-huh (4+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            KenBee, maxomai, ancblu, Kevskos
            Barnes’ MRX Bullet features a patented Silvex® core surrounded by an all-copper body. The dense, tungsten-based core makes MRX bullets shorter than their TSX and TTSX counterparts, increasing case capacity. Deep penetration—even through heavy bone—makes MRX bullets ideal for raking shots at large game. Streamlined polymer tip boosts BC for flatter long-range trajectory, and enhances expansion with longer-range shots.

            On impact, the MRX expands into four tough, copper petals, doubling the bullet’s original diameter. Creates maximum shock and tissue damage. Effective at short or long range. Multiple rings cut into the base increase accuracy and reduce fouling.

            · Denser-than lead Silvex core

            · High retained energy at long range

            · Rapid expansion

            · Effective performance at all ranges

            · 100% Lead-free

            · Available in factory ammunition

            · Available in 20-Bullet Packs

            Warning - some snark above‽ (-9.50; -7.03)‽ eState4Column5©2013 Acedia is essentially a flight from the world that leads to not caring even that one does not care

            by annieli on Sun Mar 24, 2013 at 01:19:18 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  I've been using Barnes for 3 years now and have (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:

              shot a few animals with them. At first I loved their penetration, one plowed through over two feet of elk and then put a 3/4 inch hole in a rib and exited the animal. The elk also ran 300 feet with a double lung shot.

              I used to be very concerned about lead.

              Now I'm not. I've researched it beyond the anti shooting anti gun anti hunting.

              Lead in game meat I feed my kids and lead in the environment from outside shooting I just don't consider a danger. Much more lead left over from leaded gasoline and lead pain in our soil.

              Birds that use tiny bits of rocks to grind food in their bellies pick up old shot from before the water fowl ban and the chemicals in their digestion break the lead down and they get poisoned. Animals that eat those animals get poisoned. Lead shotgun pellets have been banned long ago and birds still get shot from long ago.

              Attempts to link lead in condors from areas that have been under a lead ban for years have slipped up scientifically. Condors get lead from the environment they live in without hunters being the source.

              Anti hunters had a very good propaganda success with lead. Like any good propaganda it had plenty of truth. "lead is poison, bullets have lead, scavengers get lead from gut piles" and so on. In court, and in science, it hasn't born out. I was just at the web site for Pinnacles National Park reading about how lead is the cause of condor problems, then I followed their links and they are down, because the studies have been discredited and the Universities have pulled the studies.

              I'll use up the box of Barnes that I have, but I'd rather use Nosler Partitions. Quicker death, more damage.

              How big is your personal carbon footprint?

              by ban nock on Mon Mar 25, 2013 at 05:06:18 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

          •  I have hundreds of steel-core rounds. (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:

            Pretty much anyone who shoots a Mosin Nagant does, since they're easily the cheapest ones available.

            You can buy them online at any ammunition site. See, e.g.

            "Speaking for myself only" - Armando

            by JR on Mon Mar 25, 2013 at 08:29:13 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

      •  actually lead isn't a serios issue at outside (10+ / 0-)

        ranges. We are exposed to far more from background sources. Lead is so much not an issue that the CDC considers it not an issue. If you are concerned about lead I'd suggest moving out of a city.

        But I really don't want to argue the issue, please see below.

        Thank you.

        How big is your personal carbon footprint?

        by ban nock on Sun Mar 24, 2013 at 11:06:32 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Don't argue then . (5+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          S F Hippie, sturunner, Quicklund, Kevskos, Smoh

          Lead Exposure Findings at Firing Ranges

          The lead vapor created in firing a handgun has several principal sources: the action of hot propellant gases (reaching 2,000) against the lead base of the bullet, the friction of the bullet against the barrel and the combustion of lead in priming compounds. Numerous studies have shown that shooters, range workers and others in the shooting area at ranges frequently have elevated blood lead levels caused both by inhaling lead vapor and by inadequate personal hygiene prior to smoking and/or eating.

              One study carried out by the United States government in the 1970's found that at nine indoor firing ranges examined, the average airborne lead concentration was almost 54 times the current OSHA limit.

              Subsequent studies have reported such findings as an average ten-fold increase in blood lead levels among a class of 17 law enforcement cadets during three months of training at an indoor range.

          Another recent study found that a group of seven Los Angeles Police Department shooting instructors at an uncovered outdoor range all had elevated blood lead levels and nearly 30% of the group had lead levels above OSHA's maximum permissible level.
          Prepared by Rainier Ballistics Corporation, Tacoma, Washington.
          Additional copies of this summary as well as of the NRA's brochure titled Effects of exposure to Airborne Lead on Users of Indoor Firing Ranges Second Edition) are available from Rainier Ballistics by calling 800-638-8722.

          Drop the name-calling MB 2/4/11 + Please try to use ratings properly! Kos 9/9/11

          by indycam on Sun Mar 24, 2013 at 11:57:08 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Zinc as a substitute? (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            ban nock

            Would it be possible to use zinc instead of lead? It's a soft metal and our pennies are now made of it (although they're copper clad). Only draw back is that it's only 1/3 the weight of lead  which will poorly affect its ballistics.

      •  I've had well respected professional , (8+ / 0-)

        in court expert evidence giving , college course giving , know it all , tell me that I must prove that shooting guns causes lead to be ingested etc by the shooter . I've had people on this site tell me that lead from guns don't cause any lead pollution in their homes cause they don't fire off rounds inside their homes . There is a great deal of blindness , unintentional or intentional , on the real and obvious lead problems re guns .

        Re shooting ranges and lead , they are not doing anything near enough . Not to protect the people or the environment .
        If the shooting range was a lead acid battery maker or recycler , they would be shut down and probably sued .
        The feds would maybe label it a superfund site .

        According to the fine folks at the EPA, lead is classified as a “toxic substance.” But hold the phone, Lucile. Under federal environmental regs, if you use a toxic substance for it’s “intended purpose,” it’s not toxic. Since a gun range offers an “intended purpose” under the law, the lead on the gun range property is not a toxic substance, and is therefore not a hazard. However, should the gun club lose their lease, somebody’s gonna be on the hook for cleaning up all that land, for without the gun club in operation, what was once covered by “intended purpose” is no longer, and the lead instantly and magically transmogrified from “non-toxic” to “toxic” with the stroke of a pen.

        Drop the name-calling MB 2/4/11 + Please try to use ratings properly! Kos 9/9/11

        by indycam on Sun Mar 24, 2013 at 11:20:47 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  uhm, indy, I know you mean well but do you think (11+ / 0-)

      you could take that elsewhere in the future? I'd be real happy to argue about lead, but not here, this is a place for people who enjoy shooting or have an interest in it to discuss it.

      Imagine if I posted photos of dead mutilated cats suffering from neglect as ferals on a pootie woozie diary?

      Thank You for your consideration.

      How big is your personal carbon footprint?

      by ban nock on Sun Mar 24, 2013 at 11:02:27 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Lead is more of an issue in shotgun pellets (0+ / 0-)

      You want to avoid wounding a migratory fowl and then letting a bird of prey eat it.

      Nobody uses bismuth right now due to the high price.

      I asked Fish and Game how they tell the difference when checking shotgun shells. They replied, "With a cow magnet." Tungsten happens to be attracted to a magnet. Bismuth is not attracted, though.

      •  no one hunts waterfowl with lead shot in the US (0+ / 0-)

        They use steel.

        Waterfowl was the only place there was a problem, scientifically. Waterfowl still ingest lead from before the ban, they use it in their digestion and that's why it's poisonous to them.

        How big is your personal carbon footprint?

        by ban nock on Mon Mar 25, 2013 at 05:09:16 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  Interesting and informative (7+ / 0-)

    looks like a pretty hot round.

    Trade always exists for the traders. Any time you hear businessmen debating "which policy is better for America," don’t bend over. -George Carlin-

    by not4morewars on Sun Mar 24, 2013 at 10:48:41 AM PDT

  •  Most of this is way over my head. I (7+ / 0-)

    go hunting about 4 times a year and have a small .38 in my home for personal protection. Still, I hope for the people that get a lot out of these diaries, that it remains clean of any trolling.

    I see what you did there.

    by GoGoGoEverton on Sun Mar 24, 2013 at 11:13:43 AM PDT

  •  Sickening: (6+ / 1-)
    Recommended by:
    Crider, Rizzo, oldpotsmuggler, alain2112, Kevskos, Smoh
    Hidden by:
    prairie dogs way out past the back fence is a lot of fun
    Killing and maiming for fun.

    If I ran this circus, things would be DIFFERENT!

    by CwV on Sun Mar 24, 2013 at 11:17:49 AM PDT

  •  A small, tight slug with a good-sized cartridge (8+ / 0-)

    should make for a highly accurate target round, and target shooting is what I like to do.

    You got me real interested in this round, ban nock!

    They're not a serious party anymore. -Kos

    by thenekkidtruth on Sun Mar 24, 2013 at 11:20:13 AM PDT

  •  New round seems like a niche product . . . (8+ / 0-)

    . . . aimed at varminters who don't reload.  Wouldn't think it would do for small game, even a .17 hollow point at 3000 fps isn't going to leave much of that squirrel or rabbit for the stewpot.

    Should work nicely for getting groundhogs out of the cornfield, though.


  •  Interesting (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    annieli, oldpotsmuggler, ban nock

    I still like the idea of an air rifle for such small calibers, or a spring-powered one such as what Airsoft.  I understand that shooting a .17 rimfire on a windy day is supposed to be very amusing. For a small, versatile round, I'd do 25.06 Remington or .257 Weatherby. You can get the Remingtons in bullet weights from 75 gr all the way up to 120 gr with ridiculously fast velocity.

    That's if I wanted a rifle. I was saving by bucks for a genuine brand new Weatherby in .257 but we had a huge 90,000 acre fire in my local National Forest back in 1996 and that's when I stopped buying firearms and hunting.

    "Societies strain harder and harder to sustain the decadent opulence of the ruling class, even as it destroys the foundations of productivity and wealth." — Chris Hedges

    by Crider on Sun Mar 24, 2013 at 11:28:02 AM PDT

    •  Fires can improve habitat, I've read long range (0+ / 0-)

      predictions of what global warming might do to species and for some like grazers at elevation it will be a boon.

      I've been reading a lot about 25 06 and 6mm today and I'm still leaning towards the 25 06.

      The 17 or any other does alright in the wind as far as it goes. Wind pushes based on time the projectile is traveling, or so I read, and if something only takes a fraction of a second to go somewhere it will be pushed less than something taking a second and a half. It's when things slow down that they tend to drift, and with anything light weight that happens sooner than later.
      Muzzle / -1.5" / 3000 fps / 400 ft. lbs.
      25 yds / -0.3" / 2872 fps / 366 ft. lbs.
      50 yds / +0.6" / 2747 fps / 335 ft. lbs.
      75 yds / +1.2" / 2626 fps / 306 ft. lbs.
      100 yds / +1.5" / 2508 fps / 279 ft. lbs.
      125 yds / +1.5" / 2394 fps / 254 ft. lbs.
      150 yds / +1.0" / 2283 fps / 231 ft. lbs.
      175 yds / +0.2" / 2175 fps / 210 ft. lbs.
      200 yds / -1.1" /2069 fps / 190 ft. lbs.
      225 yds / -2.9" / 1966 fps / 172 ft. lbs.
      250 yds / -5.3" / 1867 fps / 155 ft. lbs.

      when I look at the charts for the 25 06 the numbers end out at 500yds and the ft pounds are like at the muzzle of the wsm.

      Still, I bet they are a lot of fun.

      How big is your personal carbon footprint?

      by ban nock on Sun Mar 24, 2013 at 07:16:24 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  sigh, the more things stay the same.... (4+ / 0-)
    Lynda Watson's right pinky finger is proof she's no run-of-the-mill animal lover. Last week it was bitten off by an ornery prairie dog she was trying to pull from its hole...

    Warning - some snark above‽ (-9.50; -7.03)‽ eState4Column5©2013 Acedia is essentially a flight from the world that leads to not caring even that one does not care

    by annieli on Sun Mar 24, 2013 at 11:30:16 AM PDT

    •  need to be reclassified as dangerous game (4+ / 0-)

      The manager of the wildlife sanctuary east of here asked me to come out and shoot. Haven't had time yet in the late winter when it's the time he wants. Not sure why he wants them gone either, also coyotes. The sanctuary is for migrating birds mostly.

      How big is your personal carbon footprint?

      by ban nock on Sun Mar 24, 2013 at 11:55:06 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  like the Louisiana Neutria (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        ban nock, Otteray Scribe, ancblu
        Local extinction in their native range due to overharvesting led to the development of coypu fur farms in the late 19th and early 20th centuries. The first farms were in Argentina and then later in Europe, North America, and Asia. These farms have generally not been successful long term investments and farmed coypu often are released or escape as operations become unprofitable.

        As demand for coypu fur declined, coypu have since become pests in many areas, destroying aquatic vegetation, marshes, irrigation systems, chewing through human-made items, such as tires and wooden house panelling in Louisiana, eroding river banks, and displacing native animals. Coypu were introduced to the Louisiana ecosystem in the 1930s when they escaped from fur farms that had imported them from South America. Nutria damage in Louisiana became so severe that in 2005, a bounty program was in effect to aid in controlling the animal. In the Chesapeake Bay region in Maryland, where they were introduced in the 1940s, coypu are believed to have destroyed 7,000 to 8,000 acres (2,800 to 3,200 ha) of marshland in the Blackwater National Wildlife Refuge. In response, by 2003, a multi-million dollar eradication program was underway.

        Warning - some snark above‽ (-9.50; -7.03)‽ eState4Column5©2013 Acedia is essentially a flight from the world that leads to not caring even that one does not care

        by annieli on Sun Mar 24, 2013 at 12:00:34 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  I prefer the M-29 Davy Crockett (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    sturunner, Major Kong, Ender, crose

    Good against varmints and tyranny!


    You have exactly 10 seconds to change that look of disgusting pity into one of enormous respect!

    by Cartoon Peril on Sun Mar 24, 2013 at 01:51:02 PM PDT

  •  Nice diary ... (7+ / 0-)

    I'm an old school .22 Marlin 39A guy, but that .17 WSM does look like pretty impressive performance out past 150yds.

    •  Jealous (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      ancblu, ban nock

      I've been lusting after either a 39A or Henry Golden Boy for some time.

      •  I wanted a 39A when I was looking for a 22 but (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        ancblu, andalusi

        Marlin had just been bought and they were having issues right then. I bought a CZ as someone here suggested and am very happy. I have to work the bolt every time but I'm ok with that.

        A friend got a Henry 22 mag a few years ago as his rimfire, he's way happy and it has a little zip to it.

        How big is your personal carbon footprint?

        by ban nock on Sun Mar 24, 2013 at 06:57:50 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Oh, I want a CZ as well (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          ban nock

          Actually, I want a couple, one rimfire and one centerfire. I've heard nothing but praise for their bolt action rifles.

          But I already have a couple of bolt actions. My wife and I have yet to scratch the lever action itch. Though we'll go with an older 39A if we go the Marlin route. Apparently quality control isn't so hot after Remington bought Marlin.

        •  I just don't trust Henrys (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:

          I'm sure they have very solid, reliable .22s, but I spent a lot of time lately shooting a friend's Henry Survival .22, and I was shocked at how often that thing jammed. Last time I was out at the range I must have put 70 rounds through it and had to deal with a dozen jams.

          I'm told you have to spend a lot of time finding which brand of ammunition your particular one likes and will reliably shoot, and that there's always at least one that fits the bill. Thanks, but no thanks.

          "Speaking for myself only" - Armando

          by JR on Mon Mar 25, 2013 at 08:39:10 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  FWIW ... Wiki on the AR-7 (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            JR, ban nock
            Reliability of the AR-7 is highly dependent on the condition of the magazine and on the ammunition used, perhaps more so than with other models of semi-automatic .22 caliber rifles. The feed ramp is part of the magazine and subject to damage from mishandling. Flat-nosed bullets tend to jam on the edge of the chamber of the barrel. The transition of cartridge from magazine to barrel can be smoothed by minor beveling of the chamber of the barrel, by using round-nosed as opposed to flat-nosed bullets and by paying attention to condition of the feed lips and feed ramp of the magazine. Later production magazines include an external wire spring to align the cartridge; earlier magazines used two pinch marks at the top of the magazine body, which could become worn over time.

            All iterations of the AR-7 from the Armalite to the Henry use bolt and dual recoil springs that are heavy compared to most other .22 semiautomatics. The AR-7 requires high velocity ammunition for reliable functioning. The manufacturer recommends use of 40 grain round nose bullets in high velocity loadings. It is still possible to manually load a single round into the firing chamber, allowing use of flat nosed bullets or low velocity or subsonic ammunition.

            The barrel takedown nut tends to loosen after firing and may need hand tightening to maintain both accuracy and reliability.


            Since Charter Arms sold the design and rights to Henry Repeating Arms in 1980, the Henry AR-7 has regained a reputation for reliability.[citation needed]


            With the Golden Boy, from these forum comments even the simpler lever action does apparently present occasional feeding problems with short/half stroke or slow cycling.  Henry's customer service response is also praised.  


      •  Purists would probably steer you one direction, (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        andalusi, ban nock

        but either would be a good rifle and a lot of folks with the Henry love'em.

        I'm pretty fond of my S&W K frame M-617 as well (6", 6rd) -- with the factory wood grips it pairs nicely with the Marlin.

  •  Huh? (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    ban nock, acerimusdux
    I'm writing today about a new cartridge from Winchester, the 17 caliber super mag. The photo above is hugely enlarged so that you can actually see the thing. The actual diameter is less than 1/20 of an inch. Probably about the size of this o, see it? I'll do it again, ooooo five of them lined up for ya.
    What did I miss? 17 caliber is .170 inches (approx.) just as 22 caliber is .220 inches (approx.)

    "Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything even remotely true." -- H. Simpson

    by midnight lurker on Sun Mar 24, 2013 at 06:13:40 PM PDT

  •  I don't see much use for this cartridge (5+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Ender, annieli, ban nock, dougymi, duckhunter

    It bridges the gap between the 17HMR and the .223 Rem/ 17 Rem, while the 17HMR offered something between the .22 long rifle and .223 that was flatter shooting than the 22 magnum.  Serious vamint hunters will go with the .223 and not-so-serious will continue with the 17HMR.  My truck gun around the farm is the 17HMR and I'm not at all tempted with this new round.  I don't  consider the 17HMR to be an adequate coyote round, but I did kill a coyote that had just killed my neighbors cat with it.  At 125 yards the coyote went down in its tracks.  And for the PETA people reading this, I normally just shoot close to the coyotes and don't shoot to kill.  Coyotes need to have a healthy respect for human habitation and not be comfortable around humans, and unless they are preying on my livestock or my neighbors cats I have a "let them live but make them afraid" philosophy.

    •  From what I can see the 17 wsm does have 2 uses (0+ / 0-)

      the first is it's ability to break up and lose lethality after hitting something, and the second is price. For those that don't reload I think a cartridge would cost less than 1/3 the cost of centerfire.

      I'd also guess that the speed would make it good coyote medicine out to 100 yards or maybe some more. There's the heavier slower round without the plastic tip.

      How big is your personal carbon footprint?

      by ban nock on Mon Mar 25, 2013 at 05:37:12 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Got my order from Numrich (0+ / 0-)

    A screw, a pin and an ejector assembly for my old Savage 67h pump-action 12 gauge.

    Very simple repair that should take me about ten minutes to fix it, assuming I know what I'm doing... I'll probably be done around Easter.

    "Speaking for myself only" - Armando

    by JR on Mon Mar 25, 2013 at 10:37:01 PM PDT

    •  Total repair time: about four hours (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      ban nock

      Don't ask.

      And don't tell my wife. She's going to be pretty pissed that I was able to repair this shotgun for about $25 in parts, but while it was broken I bought a fifty year-old Beretta over/under for...well, let's just say more than $25.

      It's damn pretty, though. :)

      "Speaking for myself only" - Armando

      by JR on Wed Mar 27, 2013 at 01:02:36 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

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