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Yes, its early.  Yes, we only JUST had a Presidential election.  But for those of us who still carry the torch, no time is too soon for the first woman President.  Hillary in 2016!

The dust has settled from Mrs. Clinton's departure from State Department, where she was a loyal and competent member of the Obama Administration.  Now she is writing a book about her time on Foggy Bottom.  She just came out for marriage equality.

Meanwhile, slowly but surely the apparatus of another run for President has begun to form.

She has been a wife and mother, a First Lady, a US Senator, a former Presidential candidate, a Secretary of State and now is by most opinion polls one of the most respected Democrats in the country.  She beats GOP types like Marco Rubio in their home states.

In 2008 she could have thrown a fit, a la Kennedy in 1980, and turned the Democratic Convention into a food fight.  Instead she bit her tongue and did what many women have had to do - acquiesce to the reality of a powerful male-controlled world that demanded that women be "team players" - even when it is clear the men hold themselves to another standard.  Maybe she will now benefit from their gratitude - but we should not count on it.

Those of us who were for Hillary in 2008 will soon be given one of the rarest gifts in life - a second chance.  

Let us dig up those muskets we buried, clean them off and be ready to shoulder arms once more.  Make sure the old flags are stored within easy reach - we will soon unfurl them to wave proudly again.  

We await only the word.  Let the Blonde Lady speak it...and we shall be there.

Hillary in 2016!

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Comment Preferences

  •  Tip Jar (7+ / 0-)

    "Hidden in the idea of radical openness is an allegiance to machines instead of people." - Jaron Lanier

    by FDRDemocrat on Thu Apr 04, 2013 at 07:30:05 PM PDT

  •  Good luck. (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Remediator, alain2112

    But she lost because she had a lousy campaign team last time.

    I hope that doesn't happen again.

    "Michael Moore, who was filming a movie about corporate welfare called 'Capitalism: A Love Story,' sought and received incentives."

    by Bush Bites on Thu Apr 04, 2013 at 07:40:01 PM PDT

    •  Really? (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Gooserock

      And what did you just add to this already annoying discussion that's probably doing a lot to kill potential support for her? Why?

      Jon Husted is a dick.

      by anastasia p on Thu Apr 04, 2013 at 08:03:30 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  It was a fair assessment. (4+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Bush Bites, duhban, alain2112, Ginny in CO

        That was one of the crappiest campaigns I've ever seen.

        They were unfocused and out-hustled.  

      •  I don't even know what you're talking about. (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Remediator, duhban, alain2112

        She had a lousy campaign team and she'll have to do better next time.

        That means no strategists who don't even know all primaries aren't winner take all.

        It's a good thing she didn't get the nomination last time because even McCain's disfunctional team would have run wrings around Mr. Penn and his band of amateurs.

        "Michael Moore, who was filming a movie about corporate welfare called 'Capitalism: A Love Story,' sought and received incentives."

        by Bush Bites on Thu Apr 04, 2013 at 08:08:37 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  In a Way This is a Positive Even If Comment Wasn't (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Remediator, Bush Bites

        It may well be that the only reason she wasn't the nominee was the craptacular and very basic level strategic blunder of her nomination campaign.

        She must be keenly aware of that; plus, she's since seen 2 very successful Obama maximalist Presidential campaigns.

        We are called to speak for the weak, for the voiceless, for victims of our nation and for those it calls enemy.... --ML King "Beyond Vietnam"

        by Gooserock on Thu Apr 04, 2013 at 08:09:49 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  The comment was truthful. (4+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Remediator, Urizen, duhban, devis1

          I have no problem with Hillary being president. I want her to be president.

          But it's not going to happen if she relies on friends of bill putting together another old boy campaign team that truly sucks out loud.

          "Michael Moore, who was filming a movie about corporate welfare called 'Capitalism: A Love Story,' sought and received incentives."

          by Bush Bites on Thu Apr 04, 2013 at 08:14:01 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

  •  No. Iraq War. Arrogant, intransigent refusal (8+ / 0-)

    to admit she was ever wrong about it.  She shouldn't even have been Secretary of State.

    Going faster miles an hour, with the radio on.

    by Troubadour on Thu Apr 04, 2013 at 07:40:26 PM PDT

    •  Double Standards Live On (7+ / 0-)

      Liberal Democrats that made the same vote included Biden, Kerry, Harkin, Dodd and Edwards.  Harry Reid voted yes, as did Tom Daschle.  On the other side, Hagel voted yes.

      When Biden was named Obama's VP was there a huge uproar from the purer-than-thou Guardians of the Iraq Vote to block him?  No.

      When Kerry was named Secretary of State by Obama to take Hillary's place, was there an uproar from the purer-than-thou Guardians of the Iraq Vote to block him?  No.

      When Obama named Chuck Hagel to be Secretary of Defense, did the purer-than-thou Guardians of the Iraq Vote muster to block his nomination?  No.

      However, all bets are off with Hillary.  She must be made to pay the price!  

      What hypocrisy and double standards.  And people wonder why Hillary supporters gender-bias antennae are always waving.

      For the record, I personally opposed the Iraq War.  I marched against it before it began.  I believe it was a horrible mistake.  And I do hold Hillary - as well as the others - accountable for their willingness to let Bush have his way.

      But that is only one factor among many.  All in all, I think she and many others have learned a lesson from that episode.  It has had a clear impact on US involvement currently in places like the Middle East.

      The Hillary-Haters will always find something...

      "Hidden in the idea of radical openness is an allegiance to machines instead of people." - Jaron Lanier

      by FDRDemocrat on Thu Apr 04, 2013 at 07:52:59 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I was against Kerry's nomination (4+ / 0-)

        and against Biden being chosen as VP, and against any Republican being nominated for a Cabinet post under this administration.  But if you're willing to forgive not only direct complicity in the single worst act of treason since the Civil War, but ongoing intransigence and refusal to admit being wrong about it, be my guest.  But I would suggest it's not me who's being hypocritical.

        Going faster miles an hour, with the radio on.

        by Troubadour on Thu Apr 04, 2013 at 07:56:07 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  We vote for politicians not saints (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          JamieG from Md

          If you examine the life of Abraham Lincoln, you will find many flaws including many racist statements.  Yet the verdict of history has been that he saved the union and made it possible for slavery to be ended.  Certainly the harder line abolitionists were no fans of Lincoln.

          I find it curious that people apply such unreal standards.  You will find no one in this world who will meet them.  You can then choose to be disgruntled and apart.  Or decide that, for better or worse, you'll go with the better.

          "Hidden in the idea of radical openness is an allegiance to machines instead of people." - Jaron Lanier

          by FDRDemocrat on Thu Apr 04, 2013 at 08:11:26 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  "Politicians, not saints." (3+ / 0-)

            Repeat: The single worst act of treason since the Civil War.  Hillary Clinton does not even admit she was wrong to vote for it.

            Going faster miles an hour, with the radio on.

            by Troubadour on Thu Apr 04, 2013 at 08:14:29 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Your Facts Are Wrong (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              JamieG from Md

              Hillary has admitted the vote was a mistake, although she defended her thinking at the time.

              Believe it or not, people can learn and evolve.  I disagree with Hillary about her vote, just as you do.  But I also think she sincerely regrets it.  I am sure Kerry and Biden do too.

              "Hidden in the idea of radical openness is an allegiance to machines instead of people." - Jaron Lanier

              by FDRDemocrat on Thu Apr 04, 2013 at 08:31:12 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  No, she hasn't admitted it was a mistake. (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                betterdemsonly

                Going faster miles an hour, with the radio on.

                by Troubadour on Thu Apr 04, 2013 at 08:41:27 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Yes during 2008 campaign (0+ / 0-)

                  you can look it up

                  "Hidden in the idea of radical openness is an allegiance to machines instead of people." - Jaron Lanier

                  by FDRDemocrat on Thu Apr 04, 2013 at 08:45:45 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  No, she didn't. I wasn't in a coma in 2008. (2+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    Sparhawk, betterdemsonly

                    And I saw how she addressed the Iraq War.  It was basically the argument that she voted to give Bush power, and has no responsibility for what he did with it.  The "no one could have predicted" bullshit.

                    Going faster miles an hour, with the radio on.

                    by Troubadour on Thu Apr 04, 2013 at 08:49:46 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  The Iraq war... (4+ / 0-)

                      ...was a bright shining moment when we got to see who was on our side and who was a fucking poser.

                      When the chips were down, Hillary (and Kerry) sold US citizens, the troops, Iraqi civilians, and the Constitution out for their ambitions.

                      They failed. Miserably. When I vote for Presidents, I like to vote for people with some shred of moral character (tough these days, I know).

                      The lesson must be taught. It is essential that no one who voted for the Iraq war ever get to be President. Ever.

                      (-5.50,-6.67): Left Libertarian
                      Leadership doesn't mean taking a straw poll and then just throwing up your hands. -Jyrinx

                      by Sparhawk on Thu Apr 04, 2013 at 10:19:52 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  I agree. I would still vote for such a person (2+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        Sparhawk, Fabienne

                        in a General Election against a Republican, because bitching about choosing between the "lesser of two evils" is just childish if that's the decision you're faced with.  But while there is an option to reject such people, such as in a primary, I will always do that.  

                        The Iraq War was an historic moment of decision and the clearest test of citizenship, intelligence, courage, and morality since the Civil War.  Those who voted for the Iraq War failed all of the above.  Those who did so and still don't admit they failed prove themselves to be irredeemable liars and narcissists.

                        Going faster miles an hour, with the radio on.

                        by Troubadour on Thu Apr 04, 2013 at 10:39:58 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                    •  In one of the MSNBC debates (0+ / 0-)

                      she said her biggest regret as Senator was voting for the the Iraq war.

    •  For many reasons (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      JamieG from Md, sukeyna, Jeremimi

      1.  she will win
      2.  she is better than the alternative
      3.  we does indeed have progressive impulses and her heart is in the right place
      4.  she is seasoned and ready
      5.  we should elect a first woman as President

      To me, as a pragmatist, #1 and #2 are enough.  People will grow old on DKOS waiting for the second incarnation of Eugene Debs....he's dead and buried and ain't coming back.  Let's live for the present and be realistic.

      "Hidden in the idea of radical openness is an allegiance to machines instead of people." - Jaron Lanier

      by FDRDemocrat on Thu Apr 04, 2013 at 08:06:57 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  You seriously believe there are not better (4+ / 0-)

        and far more progressive dems?

        I have no conviction (polls are way too early) she will win it. Bill can help other candidates. He would be an albatross for her. The alternative?  Why only one?

        Progressive impulses is too generous. I grew up in Chicago area, GOP, she's the same age as my oldest sister. She's a fine Republican.  (Dirksen and Percy were our senators.)

        Seasoned republican. I know she did a lot as SoS. Waiting to find out how much was good and how much will backfire.

        She wasn't ready for health care reform and blew it. I've worked in the steadily deteriorating health care system since '77. The last thing I want is for the first woman POTUS to blow it. Too many crises threatening us and the planet for a DLC compromiser. Obama has created a simmering determination for smart change. Which she's never had the vision for.  

        She will be too old. One year younger than Saint Ronnie. We can do much better. Some of us are getting prepared.

        "People, even more than things, have to be restored, renewed, revived, reclaimed and redeemed; never throw out anyone. " Audrey Hepburn "A Beautiful Woman"

        by Ginny in CO on Fri Apr 05, 2013 at 05:01:57 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Ginny in CO, you raise a bunch (0+ / 0-)

          of key considerations that would play different ways in the Democratic primary, depending on who all runs.  

          If Sec. Clinton gets in, it is a much different primary than if she doesn't.  Below you talk about appeal to younger voters.  I'm wondering how the shift will work if she decides against a run versus how she'd do with the same voters if she gets in.  

          My thought was that it might depend on who's running her campaign.  Name rec and cash aren't going to be problems.  She could recast herself in history, if she wanted to go that route.  Or she could retain the key folks from the 08 primary campaign.  If she gets in, she really needs to rehaul her handlers and advisors.  Almost totally, IMO.

          On another topic.  You mention Dirksen and Percy.  I'm just one voter, and a blue one at that, but it surely would be a fine thing to have a few more Senate Republicans of the Dirksen / Percy variety.  Haven't seen their likes in many moons.  

        •  How is she too old? (0+ / 0-)

          Women live longer than men and I don't think she has any health issues.  If she runs in 2016 she will be around the same age as Reagan when he ran in 1980.

          "Hidden in the idea of radical openness is an allegiance to machines instead of people." - Jaron Lanier

          by FDRDemocrat on Fri Apr 05, 2013 at 03:43:30 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

  •  Meh (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    duhban, alain2112, christine20, Fabienne

    I'll vote for her if she runs, but not really that enthused about the notion. I think there are some better possibilities out there. I still have doubts about how progressive she'd be -- for those who've been complaining about Obama, do they really think Clinton would be better? I also still have a bad taste from her support of IWR and Kyl-Lieberman, and she's never walked those back to he best of my knowledge. I worry that she's going to want to prove she can be just as big a hawk as the boys.

    I once said, "If Hillary runs, I'm voting Green"...well, the country doesn't have the luxury for me and millions like me to sit out an election, so I'll still vote for her, but it will be with a distinct lack of enthusiasm.

    There's only one rule that I know of, babies -- goddammit, you've got to be kind. -- Kurt Vonnegut

    by Cali Scribe on Thu Apr 04, 2013 at 07:43:18 PM PDT

    •  A vote is a vote (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Radiowalla

      If I counted only my enthusiastic votes, I have never really voted for anyone for President.  Believe me, I was not happy about Carter in 1980, Mondale in 1984, Dukakis in 1988 etc.  

      But if the choice is between Hillary and, say, Ted Cruz, would you really find that choice as meaningless?

      I support Hillary with open eyes.  She has her flaws, as do we all.

      But watch the movie Lincoln.  What good is it to know true North if we can't get there?

      "Hidden in the idea of radical openness is an allegiance to machines instead of people." - Jaron Lanier

      by FDRDemocrat on Thu Apr 04, 2013 at 08:03:31 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  I feel pretty much the same way.... (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      duhban

      I'd definitely prefer her to a Republican, and even in a state as safe as MA, wouldn't feel the luxury to vote green in protest, but I'd prefer to have a candidate who's a bit more liberal (Assuming, of course, the candidate could win - I'd go for Hillary in a primary if I thought a more liberal candidate were much less likely to win the general).

  •  Is Mark Penn on board yet? (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    anastasia p, Remediator, christine20

    In 2008, Hillary was destined to win the presidency. In 2016, she's really destined to win the presidency. Hopefully, her presidential odds will be so overwhelming this time that she scare away other potential candidates who would run better campaigns. The other question is, will she be able to make it through an arduous campaign and eight years of the presidency without admitting that she was wrong about the Iraq War?

    •  Incomplete Analysis (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Gooserock, Radiowalla

      Hillary won nearly half the delegates, despite an admittedly bad campaign.  I suspect she would not make the same mistakes.

      As for the Iraq War vote, see my reply above.  Those who beat her over the head with that vote are awfully selective about who they target...

      "Hidden in the idea of radical openness is an allegiance to machines instead of people." - Jaron Lanier

      by FDRDemocrat on Thu Apr 04, 2013 at 07:59:33 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Yes, but winning only HALF the votes (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        doc2, christine20

        when you were so overwhelmingly inevitable is the same as complete failure. And since it was probably a Mark Penn strategy, and this is the same losing strategy, I'd guess he is still on board.

        Jon Husted is a dick.

        by anastasia p on Thu Apr 04, 2013 at 08:27:41 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  So what? People make comebacks (0+ / 0-)

          The historical record is full of examples of people who were defeated but came back and triumphed.  Actually, many believe that makes you stronger and wiser the second time around.

          "Hidden in the idea of radical openness is an allegiance to machines instead of people." - Jaron Lanier

          by FDRDemocrat on Thu Apr 04, 2013 at 08:32:55 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Except that Hillary has been looking old and (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            betterdemsonly, Fabienne

            tired over the past several years. Because she is old and tired. She did a great job as SoS, and it's nice that a Democrat is so favored to win the White House. But let's not pretend that she is anything like the kind of president we on this site would ideally like to see. People here who think that Obama leans too far toward the financial establishment and corporations would find (former Walmart director) Hillary Clinton's administration a very long 8 years.

            •  Old and tired - those are wisdom lines! (0+ / 0-)

              Hillary just needs some rest, which she will get in the next year.  Then maybe a trip to Nancy Pelosi for some advice on how a 70 year old woman can have no wrinkles or gray hair.

              "Hidden in the idea of radical openness is an allegiance to machines instead of people." - Jaron Lanier

              by FDRDemocrat on Fri Apr 05, 2013 at 03:46:44 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

  •  The GOP 2016 field may change (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    JamieG from Md

    if Secretary Clinton gets in.  

    Without her, Republicans may feel they have a better chance.  Whether they actually would, IMO, is less certain.

    But if she gets in, would we see Jeb, for instance?  Would Santorum even bother?  Would Christie?  Cruz and Paul are delusional enough that probably they'd announce no matter what.  

    Would Rubio be self-realized enough to know that she'd be formidable as an opponent?

    I'm usually on a strong anti-Republican kick, but lately it's more acute than ever.  

    If Clinton gets in, the GOP will be hard-pressed to find a competitive opponent.

  •  Aged Rib Eye with Onion Purée (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    tmservo433, jan4insight, Ginny in CO

    6 tablespoons unsalted butter, divided
    2 medium Vidalia or Maui onions (about 1 1/4 pounds total), very thinly sliced on a mandoline (about 3 packed cups)
    1/4 cup low-salt chicken stock
    1 tablespoon buttermilk
    Kosher salt
    1 tablespoon vegetable oil
    1 28-ounces dry-aged rib-eye steak (about 2" thick), standing at room temperature for 1 hour
    Coarse sea salt
    Assorted soft herb sprigs (such as tarragon, flat-leaf parsley, and chervil)

    Heat 2 tablespoons butter in a 12" heavy skillet over medium-low heat. Add onions and cook, stirring constantly, until translucent (do not brown), 10-12 minutes. Add stock and 3/4 cup water. Bring to a simmer, reduce heat to low, cover, and continue to simmer until onions are falling apart, about 20 minutes. Uncover and stir until onions are almost dry (do not brown), about 5 minutes. Transfer onions to a blender. Add buttermilk and 1 tablespoon water. Purée until smooth. Season with kosher salt.

    Preheat oven to 350°F. Arrange a wire rack inside a rimmed baking sheet. Melt 2 tablespoons butter with oil in a large cast-iron skillet or large heavy skillet over medium-high heat. Season steak generously with kosher salt. Cook until a deep brown crust forms, 3–4 minutes per side and 1–2 minutes on edges. Place on prepared rack. Roast until a thermometer inserted into steak registers 115°F, about 40 minutes. (Steak will carry over to medium-rare.) Let rest for 30 minutes.

    Melt remaining 2 tablespoons butter in a large skillet over medium-high heat; cook until butter browns, about 2 minutes. Add steak and cook for 30 seconds per side, allowing steak to absorb butter. Cut steak into 4 slices. Place 1 steak slice on each plate and sprinkle with sea salt. Spoon warm onion purée alongside. Scatter herbs over purée.

  •  I supported Ted Kennedy against Carter (0+ / 0-)

    in 1980.

    Would do it again.

    •  Kennedy helped put Dutch in the White House (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Urizen, Radiowalla

      Kennedy had even less percentage of the delegates than Hillary had.  He had zero chance.

      Were you were one of those demanding Hillary drop out before the Convention in 2008?  Seems to me the rules should be the same for everyone.

      "Hidden in the idea of radical openness is an allegiance to machines instead of people." - Jaron Lanier

      by FDRDemocrat on Thu Apr 04, 2013 at 07:57:18 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  No. But then again, I didn't have to. (3+ / 0-)

        Her campaign staff sucked so bad that she had lost that nomination a long time before she actually dropped out.  

        She lost it in more than one place, too.  She lost it in Iowa, finishing second behind Obama and Edwards.  She almost lost New Hampshire.  She was massacred in South Carolina.  The Associated Press called her the victor in Missouri then had to take the projection back when Obama won.  She got whomped in North Carolina and almost lost Indiana the same night.  

        Primaries are for voters to express a preference for one candidate as opposed to others.  Kennedy did not help Reagan beat Carter; Carter's lackluster leadership lost him a second term.  Dullest damn Cabinet in centuries.  Hell of a decent guy, Carter, and he absolutely shines post-White House, but that was most definitely not an effective presidency.

        •  Also Started Finance Deregulation (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Remediator, betterdemsonly

          but I don't think it was a factor in the election.

          In addition to not being a gifted politician, he had the dumb luck of supervising helicopters that couldn't operate in desert conditions on a desert mission.

          We are called to speak for the weak, for the voiceless, for victims of our nation and for those it calls enemy.... --ML King "Beyond Vietnam"

          by Gooserock on Thu Apr 04, 2013 at 08:12:50 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Yes, the international profile muddle. (0+ / 0-)

            His big score was the Middle East peace talks, but there was an organizational deficit back home.  Carter, a very good hearted human being, did not invest money, time, and talent in building Democratic prospects across the country.  

            State and County chairpersons in some cases felt locked out, and were starving for some energy.  By the time Reagan had a lot of voters in a swoon, Carter's people found that they could not draw from the Democratic well.  

            There were reports that he disbelieved the surge in support for Reagan.  Caddell sat him down a week and a half before the election and said, "I'm sorry, Mr. President.  The numbers aren't there."

        •  Selective recounting of history (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Radiowalla

          I could make her look bad too if I ignored all the states she won and called even her victories "almost losses."

          On Carter, the failure at Desert One sealed Reagan's victory.  The Iran hostage crisis was a bleeding wound that was not staunched.  Take that out of the equation and Carter could definitely have won reelection.

          "Hidden in the idea of radical openness is an allegiance to machines instead of people." - Jaron Lanier

          by FDRDemocrat on Thu Apr 04, 2013 at 08:17:57 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  The point was the crappy campaign. (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Bush Bites

            I think the assessment fits.  

            If Secretary Clinton gets in for 2016, she will need a new and more focused team of advisors and handlers.  

            Her 2008 squad were amateurish and full of themselves.  She was not served well by that crew at all.  

            A lot of people called a Reagan landslide many months before the post-Labor Day intensity.  The Iran hostage crisis was certainly a factor, but Carter's presidency was not a strong one, it was ineffective, he failed to communicate to voters, and they picked handsome Ronnie.  

            Most political losses are accumulative affairs.  

          •  Carter had a deal ready with Iran that (0+ / 0-)

            Reagan sabotaged - same treason as Nixon in '68 with the VC.

            Hillary would need a much younger, hipper campaign group. I don't think she can attract those people.

            "People, even more than things, have to be restored, renewed, revived, reclaimed and redeemed; never throw out anyone. " Audrey Hepburn "A Beautiful Woman"

            by Ginny in CO on Fri Apr 05, 2013 at 05:11:20 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

        •  And Penn just didn't understand the caucuses. (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Remediator, JamieG from Md

          Team Obama kept rolling up points virtually unopposed out in the sticks.

          "Michael Moore, who was filming a movie about corporate welfare called 'Capitalism: A Love Story,' sought and received incentives."

          by Bush Bites on Thu Apr 04, 2013 at 08:52:38 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Agree. They really did. I asked myself (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Bush Bites

            then why Hillary Clinton did not have people in the field, even if Penn had never mentioned it?

            She'd seen her husband make impressive inroads into various states' party systems.  I kept watching to see if she would replicate his success.  

            But it never happened.  

    •  I don't think it was that Kennedy ran... (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Remediator, Gooserock, Urizen

      ...but that he was a bit of a sore loser at the convention.

      "Michael Moore, who was filming a movie about corporate welfare called 'Capitalism: A Love Story,' sought and received incentives."

      by Bush Bites on Thu Apr 04, 2013 at 08:02:50 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Some of that in a lot of candidates, (0+ / 0-)

        though, including Hillary Clinton in 2008.  

      •  It Was That He Had So Much Money That he Could (0+ / 0-)

        be a candidate when he wasn't all that competitive with the people.

        We are called to speak for the weak, for the voiceless, for victims of our nation and for those it calls enemy.... --ML King "Beyond Vietnam"

        by Gooserock on Thu Apr 04, 2013 at 08:13:38 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  It's funny. (0+ / 0-)

          I read a book on that campaign and the Carter people actually had some polling that showed most voters could see Kennedy in the White House and didn't have a problem with it.

          But the timing was always bad for Kennedy -- people were rallying around the president when the primaries were in full swing and Kennedy didn't have enough primaries left by the time the hostage crisis started hurting Carter's numbers.

          And, of course, Kennedy fumbled the Roger Mudd interview badly.

          "Michael Moore, who was filming a movie about corporate welfare called 'Capitalism: A Love Story,' sought and received incentives."

          by Bush Bites on Thu Apr 04, 2013 at 08:19:18 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  More. (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Urizen, Susan G in MN

            "Michael Moore, who was filming a movie about corporate welfare called 'Capitalism: A Love Story,' sought and received incentives."

            by Bush Bites on Thu Apr 04, 2013 at 08:27:51 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  I supported Kennedy - and Jerry Brown in 76' (0+ / 0-)

            I agree Ted would have been a better President.

            But it bothers me that in 1980 he was seen as within his right to contest the Convention, yet in 2008 everyone was demanding that Hillary - who had far more delegates as a percentage than Kennedy - drop out.

            I agree she did the right thing in making peace with Obama and not making the Convention a battle.  But I'd like her to get some credit for it.

            "Hidden in the idea of radical openness is an allegiance to machines instead of people." - Jaron Lanier

            by FDRDemocrat on Thu Apr 04, 2013 at 08:38:08 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  I don't agree with your premise. (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              JamieG from Md

              Most Dems blame Kennedy for Carter losing or, at least, they blame Kennedy for making a tough battle even tougher for Carter.

              Hillary did the right thing like I hope Obama would, but it didn't turn out all bad for her.

              She's the most popular woman in the country and, I think, the fact that she showed she's a team player has erased some of the sense of entitlement people felt she had before.

              And, by the way, she has the chance to do truly great things as president that she wouldn't have had if she was president now because she'll be inheriting a pretty blank slate instead of spending all her time bailing the country out of a recession and two wars.

              "Michael Moore, who was filming a movie about corporate welfare called 'Capitalism: A Love Story,' sought and received incentives."

              by Bush Bites on Thu Apr 04, 2013 at 08:46:42 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

          •  More still. (0+ / 0-)
            Kennedy’s official announcement was scheduled for early November. A television interview with Roger Mudd of CBS a few days before the announcement went badly, however. Kennedy gave an "incoherent and repetitive"[4] answer to the question of why he was running, and the polls, which showed him leading the President by 58-25 in August now had him ahead 49-39.[5] Meanwhile, 52 American hostages were taken by a group of Islamist students and militants in Tehran, Iran, and Carter’s approval ratings jumped in the 60-percent range in some polls, due to a "rally ‘round the flag" effect[6] and an appreciation of Carter's calm handling of the crisis. Kennedy was suddenly left far behind. Carter beat Kennedy decisively in Iowa and New Hampshire. Carter decisively defeated Kennedy everywhere except Massachusetts, until impatience began to build with the President’s strategy on Iran. When the primaries in New York and Connecticut came around, it was Kennedy who won.

            Carter was still able to maintain a substantial lead even after Kennedy swept the last batch of primaries in June

            http://en.wikipedia.org/...

            "Michael Moore, who was filming a movie about corporate welfare called 'Capitalism: A Love Story,' sought and received incentives."

            by Bush Bites on Thu Apr 04, 2013 at 09:15:49 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  I find the only people who blame (0+ / 0-)

              Carter's loss on Kennedy are very young dems that don't remember the time and they think Kennedy ran in the general election.  Yes it is mostly Obama supporters that wanted to discourage a primary run in 2012.  

              •  Nah. (0+ / 0-)

                Carter had the vast majority of delegates in 1980 -- I'm sure most of them also blame Kennedy.

                And, you know, primary challenges never help. Most sitting presidents who get primaried don't seem to win the general.

                OTOH: If they were strong candidates, they wouldn't have gotten primaried in the first place, so it's a chicken and egg thing.

                But, as I said above and as the Wiki item relates, timing was against Teddy. The hostage thing worked to Carter's favor early on, and by the time the hostage thing started working against Carter, it was too late for Teddy. But it was perfect timing for Reagan.

                Frankly, I was undecided back then. But I thought it was justice that Carter lost the general largely because of the hostage thing because he used it as part of his "rose garden strategy" in the primaries.

                Live by the hostage crisis, die by the hostage crisis.

                "Michael Moore, who was filming a movie about corporate welfare called 'Capitalism: A Love Story,' sought and received incentives."

                by Bush Bites on Fri Apr 05, 2013 at 06:03:52 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

  •  She is a neolib like Obama (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Gooserock, truong son traveler

    so she will probably take another stab at social security, Fdr's signiture program.  She will most certainly continue austerity against public sector workers and the rest of us. Like Obama she will kill social security if she can get away with it.

    Do ever perceive a dissonance in calling yourself fdr dem and supporting and anti-new-deal democrat like Hillary and Billary Clinton?

    •  When did Obama kill Social Security? (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Urizen, jan4insight, christine20

      Did I mss something?

      "Maybe we should march on the campus of the electoral college and occupy it until they change their vote"--some wingnut, Worldnetdaily

      by chicago minx on Thu Apr 04, 2013 at 08:18:46 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Please argue facts not mirages (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Urizen, Radiowalla, JamieG from Md

      Where is your evidence that Hillary will gut Social Security?

      This discussion is starting to remind me of DKOS circa 2007-2008 where people put Obama on a pedestal and invented all sorts of anti-Hillary allegations.

      You need evidence before making such charges.  If I wanted to hear unsupported anti-Clinton rants I would go to Red State.

      "Hidden in the idea of radical openness is an allegiance to machines instead of people." - Jaron Lanier

      by FDRDemocrat on Thu Apr 04, 2013 at 08:20:30 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  She is a new democrat (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        truong son traveler

        and a Rubinist.   Obama was unknown then.  We didn't know he was a Rubinist too.  He was the best shot of escaping the new democrat mentality, when it was just Clinton and Obama left. Her husband tried to do this in his time.  Bill has also openly advocated a grand bargain and the catfood commission.  This is the record.  This is not hearsay.  Just because Obama has this problem does not prove that she is peachy keen.  It is like saying that because apples grow on trees, oranges grow on bushes.

        https://www.google.com/...

        •  labels labels labels (0+ / 0-)

          Hillary is not Bill - she is a separate person.  She should not be held accountable for his deeds.  As for being a "Rubinist" what does that even mean?  She was First Lady when Rubin was Treasury Secretary, for goodness sake.

          Labels get misused.  I remember all the glowing labels slapped on Obama in DKOS diaries during 2008.  How accurate did those labels prove?

          I think a President Hillary would surprise you - in a good way.

          "Hidden in the idea of radical openness is an allegiance to machines instead of people." - Jaron Lanier

          by FDRDemocrat on Thu Apr 04, 2013 at 10:16:49 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  Hmm. UID734829. You sound familiar. (0+ / 0-)

          "Maybe we should march on the campus of the electoral college and occupy it until they change their vote"--some wingnut, Worldnetdaily

          by chicago minx on Fri Apr 05, 2013 at 05:07:25 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

  •  asdf (6+ / 0-)

    "Instead she bit her tongue and did what many women have had to do - acquiesce to the reality of a powerful male-controlled world that demanded that women be "team players" - even when it is clear the men hold themselves to another standard."

     I did not take the above as you did. It seems like it rubbed you the wrong way because it was expected behavior for women, and I've heard a few of my older women friends in their fifties and sixties also react this way. I saw HRC as being a good sport and a team player and it raised my esteem for her. I would have expected it from a male candidate in her position and would have hoped he could have shown up as well as she did. She might have had the skill set (due to practice or social conditioning) to act as she did because she was a woman, if that's what you mean.

    Maybe it galls you that HRC was in the position of having to do that famiiar woman thing...bite her tongue, support "her" man, be a team player. But the truth is that WAS what was required in the moment I think regardless of gender. By the convention Obama was the clear leader.  It might taste bad because she was the first serious female contender for President, but I don't think it was related to her gender.

    •  that's my take, too (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Urizen, devis1

      she bit her tongue and did what many losing candidates have had to do.

      •  graciously. She did it well. (0+ / 0-)

        So, she became SOS. A hand well played. She earned my respect when she nominated Obama, how she did it. It was an exciting moment.

         I watched her face constantly. Not a hint of a problem. And some joy or pride actually (perhaps in nominating the first Black presidential nominee and being part of that historic moment!)

    •  Maybe...maybe not (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      JamieG from Md

      But as you see from the above discussion, people seem to continue to hold her to a double standard.  A ton of liberal politicians voted yes, for example, on the Iraq War.  But for none of them has it been made a disqualifying factor by the left as it has been made for Hillary.

      Kerry's vote did not deny him the nomination in 2004 or Secretary of State in 2013.  Edwards vote did not prevent a large following for him in 2008.  It did not block Biden from being made VP.

      But Hillary - no we can't let her get anywhere because of that Iraq vote!

      Sounds like the guys are getting a break here that the woman isn't.  What are we supposed to believe, what we are told or what is before our eyes?

      "Hidden in the idea of radical openness is an allegiance to machines instead of people." - Jaron Lanier

      by FDRDemocrat on Thu Apr 04, 2013 at 08:24:34 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I didn't experience the Iraq vote disqualifies (0+ / 0-)

        Hillary thing. But I wasn't on DK then.

        I wouldn't be shocked if some people had held only her to a higher standard.

        I just didn't see it in how she bit the bullet and supported Obama at the convention.

  •  No 2016 allowed until 2014 (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Satya1, Urizen, MRA NY, christine20

    We have so much to do, we need to focus like a laser on the tasks at hand and not be distracted. I know 'Hillary 2016' is a really shiny object, but we're already 100 days into PBO 2.0 and not nearly enough has been accomplished yet. Focus, focus.

    "We are not going to give up on destroying the health care system for the American people." - future President Paul Ryan.

    by Fordmandalay on Thu Apr 04, 2013 at 08:16:54 PM PDT

  •  Just Say No! (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    alain2112, christine20

    to the Queen of the DLC/Third Way/New Democrats/Blue Dogs

  •  Hillary is not very popular here (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    JamieG from Md

    as you can see.  There are a few strays like myself who supported her in 2008 and are still alive to tell the tale.  There are some who have been won over by her devotion to Obama and her service as Secretary of State.  But many more are still disdainful of her and make no bones about it, even going so far as to post a recipe in a pro-Hillary diary.  

    That is how it is.  

    It's the Supreme Court, stupid!

    by Radiowalla on Thu Apr 04, 2013 at 09:33:03 PM PDT

    •  Yes I know DKOS is anti-Hillary (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      JamieG from Md, sukeyna, Radiowalla

      I was in the midst of it all in 2007-2008, when most of the Hillary supporters left.  

      I also recall at the time that the ones doing the driving away were presenting Obama as the Savior of the Left.  So I don't regard being out of step with their judgement as a negative.

      They were wrong about Hillary in 2008.  They are wrong about her now.  

      For what its worth, once Obama was nominee in 2008 I supported him wholeheartedly.  I did so again in 2012.  

      I think what helped was that I never thought of Obama as the Savior.  I don't think that way about Hillary.  We have to make judgments about human beings with all their flaws - and politicians are a breed apart.

      But it doesn't make any sense to take your toys and go home if you don't get your way - the stakes are too high.  You will live to be old and gray and disappointed if you stand aside and let life go by because you are waiting for a perfect Savior.

      I agree it is rather childish to troll me with recipes.  But I still think there are a lot of solid people here on DKOS.  Many of whom, I think, will warm to Hillary once the race starts.  

      "Hidden in the idea of radical openness is an allegiance to machines instead of people." - Jaron Lanier

      by FDRDemocrat on Thu Apr 04, 2013 at 10:05:28 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  I personally am just tired of Clinton/Bush (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      devis1, christine20

      'Dynasties' have never worked well in American Presidencies, and I feel we need to move on from the '80s/90s.

      Julian Castro 2016!

      Okay I'm going back to not talking about 2016 yet now.

      "We are not going to give up on destroying the health care system for the American people." - future President Paul Ryan.

      by Fordmandalay on Thu Apr 04, 2013 at 10:22:51 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  That's true. (0+ / 0-)

      But even Kos has come out with a few diaries discussing her in a positive way.

      Shop Liberally this holiday season at Kos Katalog

      by JamieG from Md on Thu Apr 04, 2013 at 10:37:46 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  I don't think we should be so servile. (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Remediator

    We shouldn't be waiting for the word from anyone.

    You know, I sometimes think if I could see, I'd be kicking a lot of ass. -Stevie Wonder at the Glastonbury Festival, 2010

    by Rich in PA on Fri Apr 05, 2013 at 03:46:10 AM PDT

    •  Shall we be the change we are waiting for? (0+ / 0-)

      I could have phrased it into some sort of familiar slogan like that.  The fact of the matter is that no one can do anything unless/until the candidate declares they actually what the job.  So whether we like it or not, those who want to support Hillary must wait for The Word.

      I have no trouble with hierachy if it is supported to a useful purpose.

      "Hidden in the idea of radical openness is an allegiance to machines instead of people." - Jaron Lanier

      by FDRDemocrat on Fri Apr 05, 2013 at 03:56:51 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Hillary is not on Twitter? (0+ / 0-)

    Is that true? That indicates a different campaign style from Obama and OFA.

    The GOP won't be effing about in 2016, they'll have a nice telegenic "reasonable sounding" candidate out there.

    It is imperative Democrats keep putting out good ideas, and good candidate.s  I have no problem with Clinton at all, but we cannot afford her to sail in all "inevitable".  Hopefully there's no way that mistake is repeated after how she was unseated by Obama.

    •  I cannot imagine she will do that (0+ / 0-)

      Think instead of the Hillary on election night of the Texas and Ohio primaries, talking about those who get knocked down into the dust getting up and keeping fighting.  I have tears in my eyes when I still think of that moment.

      Fighting Hillary will be with us, not Inevitable Hillary.  That is my prediction.  

      "Hidden in the idea of radical openness is an allegiance to machines instead of people." - Jaron Lanier

      by FDRDemocrat on Fri Apr 05, 2013 at 03:54:17 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Markos (0+ / 0-)

    has all but endorsed her already. She's unbeatable in a primary barring another major health scare. Ya'll need to either get off this site now, or start coming around to her candidacy. This site doesnt allow you to support 3rd party.

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