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So, for over thirty hours Police locked-down the entire Boston Metropolitan area, and still couldn't catch the bad guy. In wasn't until the massive curtailing of civil liberties and the lock-down order was lifted that an ordinary civilian located the last known surviving suspect in the Boston Marathon bombing.

Any case for eliminating people's civil liberties in pursuit of terrorists or criminals was decimated by today's events.

An entire neighborhood was blocked off by police. They searched, without a probable cause warrant, every home in the neighborhood. No one was allowed to leave their homes. Businesses were forced to shutdown, and income of workers at those businesses was lost. And despite these police state tactics, the police still had to call the whole thing off without arresting the suspect, Dzhokhar Tsarnaev.

Some here are celebrating this massive failure and massive violations of civil liberties as a success. But the fact of the matter, is the whole tactic was discredited. It failed.

Clearly, there can be, in the aftermath of the shootout, and pursuit of the suspects some reasonable attempt to block off an area where a dangerous suspect is believed to be. But Boston Police and law enforcement personnel instead did something completely unprecedented: they locked down one of the largest metropolitan areas in the country. And the result? Nothing.

The tactic seemed unwise to me, especially as clearer photos of Dzhokhar Tsarnaev circulated in the media and the internet. Law enforcement took their greatest ally off the street: a well-informed and alert public. In doing so, they wasted thirty hours of precious time and resources, and betrayed any sense of American liberty in doing so.

According to Richard Engel of NBC News, all of the jihadist websites celebrated the law enforcement tactics that left one of the most historically significant and largest US metros paralyzed. This is exactly what they wanted to see. Now they know: Americans hide in their homes in face of danger.

This whole thing could've been settled much sooner. It took minutes for an alert and finally free homeowner to locate the suspect. By locking down the entire Boston Metropolitan Area police slowed down the investigation, and delayed the eventual capture of the suspect.

Those who would sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither, Ben Franklin once said. And so it came to fruition, for thirty hours Boston was neither secure nor free.

8:52 PM PT: Changed the title to avoid a semantic argument.

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Comment Preferences

  •  Irresponsible to let people walk around (16+ / 0-)

    not knowing what kind of explosives he was carrying. Can you imagine him getting on a train or bus or go into a crowded grocery store?

    It was for protection of lives.

  •  um, I saw the Richard Engel thing and you (10+ / 0-)

    left out the part where he also talked about jihadists not expecting to see the crowds coming out of the houses to stand in the street and clap and cheer for the police.

    You can rewatch the Rachel interview with him I'm sure.

    "If you are sure you understand everything that is going on around you, you are hopelessly confused." Walter Mondale

    by klompendanser on Fri Apr 19, 2013 at 08:25:00 PM PDT

  •  You're misquoting Ben Franklin. (6+ / 0-)
    Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.

    We were not ahead of our time, we led the way to our time.

    by i understand on Fri Apr 19, 2013 at 08:26:18 PM PDT

  •  Dude... people were taken into custody (30+ / 0-)

    and LET GO. QUICKLY. They were not held against their will, they were released and immediately cleared. That does not happen in a police state.

    Older brother was questioned about extremist ties and not only allowed to walk free, he was allowed to STAY IN THE COUNTRY.

    That does not happen in a freaking police state. Get some damn perspective.

    This whole exercise proved that security operations can be carried out in a rational and efficient manner.

    If anything it UNDERMINES the logic for a police state.

  •  I remember hearing about (3+ / 0-)

    that guy who was falsely ID'd because of his white cap or something, and was handcuffed and interrogated and all that. I remember thinking for a fleeting second that if I were him I would be peeved at them. Then I remembered how comfy my chair is.

    "Every book is like a door"

    by Hammerhand on Fri Apr 19, 2013 at 08:33:16 PM PDT

  •  Actually: (9+ / 0-)

    If they hadn't have shut the city down like that, wouldn't he have used public transportation and gotten away? Or gotten on a plane?

  •  I've LIVED under Martial Law. This wasn't it (38+ / 0-)

    Martial Law is a suspension of Civil Law and Civil Liberties.  describe which Civil Liberties were being denied.  I'll wait.............

    The answer is none.  "Shelter in Place" is a SAFETY Protocol, and is no different than local authorities ordering an evacuation before a hurricane. Nobody was subject to arrest (although I wouldn't want to be asserting my constitutional rights in front of a police patrol) for going outside.  But it was safer for the population and safer for the police if they didn't have to evaluate whether people on the street were the person they were looking for.

    •  Me, too, though a mild one. South Korea, 1960s. (4+ / 0-)

      After the military dictator took off his uniform and got himself elected in rigged elections. Tear gas in the streets, illegal to read or possess Marx and other political literature.

      Then there are my relatives who failed to survive the Nazis, and some friends who fled Communism. Plus children of death squad victims whom I assist in my non-profit educational work, among others.

      People are still trying to get to the US, not flee.

      Ceterem censeo, gerrymandra delenda est

      by Mokurai on Fri Apr 19, 2013 at 10:24:02 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  YOU wouldn't want to be "asserting" your (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:

      constitutional rights???  WHY?  AFRAID you'd get shot OR put in jail?

      Explain again to me how that's not "a suspension of Civil Law and Civil Liberties"...I'll wait..

      Tactics of a police state are INTIMIDATION & FEAR to suppress the exercise of rights by the people.

      See how this works yet?

      -7.62; -5.95 The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite insane.~Tesla

      by gerrilea on Fri Apr 19, 2013 at 10:27:38 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Afraid of being killed or (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:

        blown up by a terrorist on the loose?
        Were any of the denizens drinking coffee at the Dunkin Donuts arrested for not staying in their homes?
        Did you see the police arrest ONE PERSON (using caps is fun!) for being out of their home?

        “We are not a nation that says ‘don’t ask, don’t tell.’ We are a nation that says ‘out of many, we are one.’” -Barack Obama

        by skohayes on Sat Apr 20, 2013 at 03:38:27 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Hon, moving the goal posts doesn't work. (0+ / 0-)

          They were ordered to stay in their homes:

          Police cornered Tsarnaev -- a naturalized U.S. citizen of Chechen origin -- around 7 p.m., less than an hour after police lifted a stay-indoors order for the city and its suburbs.

          It wasn't a suggestion.

          Show me the relevant law granting them this authority.

          The police created an atmosphere of fear so that they could "bring justice".

          "CAPTURED!!! The hunt is over. The search is done. The terror is over. And justice has won," the Boston Police Department said on its Twitter account.
          The police are not empowered to do "justice".  That is what our legal system is allegedly supposed to do.  You know, charges, prosecution, judge, jury.

          -7.62; -5.95 The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite insane.~Tesla

          by gerrilea on Sun Apr 21, 2013 at 05:54:37 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  I really don't think it matter what it's called (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:

      Many here are having problems with the terminology used. I can understand that - though I don't know if there's a technical definition of "police state" or "martial law" that is credible.

      So let's skip the terminology and think about whether turning an entire city into a ghost town (now there's some terminology) was a good idea.

      •  Even a "bad idea" isn't a rights violation. (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:

        The confusing of civil rights violation with the efficacy of the tactics is a mistake.

        That's not even "gun control". It's more like "massacre control".

        by Inland on Sat Apr 20, 2013 at 06:31:44 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Please describe the APPROPRIATE way... (0+ / 0-)

        ...that the Police and civilian authorities should have handled this situation, when they, the authorities and the public could reasonable assume the suspect had guns and explosives.  And if you lived across the street from the house where he was caught, would you interpret a Police order to stay inside as an affront to your civil rights?

  •  Pretty sure shelter-in-place was voluntary. (22+ / 0-)

    Nobody wanted to be seen as potentially interfering with the police operation by doing otherwise.  I'm sure it was somewhat intimidating to see all those armed troops and APCs out there, but also somewhat reassuring.  Only if they don't leave do you get to accuse them of a "police state" or "martial law."

    Democracy is a habit, not a circumstance.

    by Troubadour on Fri Apr 19, 2013 at 08:43:25 PM PDT

  •  Wow. First, it was VOLUNTARY (23+ / 0-)

    And it was a completely reasonable request under the circumstances.

    Second, EVERY eyewitness that I heard speak said they stayed inside even after they were told it was okay to go out because they were scared. There was a terrorist loose on the streets, in their neighborhood.

    This is just silly. The police arrested him without killing him- a huge victory in my eyes considering the situation.

    Yes, we are inching ever closer to a police state.

    But this is not the incident to point to as evidence.

    P.S. I am not a crackpot.

    by BoiseBlue on Fri Apr 19, 2013 at 08:47:28 PM PDT

    •  We are in the bizarre position of inching closer (0+ / 0-)

      to a police state at the very same time when we are inching away from it.

      Oh, wait, that's just living in a democracy where one or more parties represent all of the forces of greed, hate, and delusion, and others try to oppose them. The alternative to which is living in an actual police state all the time.

      Ceterem censeo, gerrymandra delenda est

      by Mokurai on Fri Apr 19, 2013 at 10:28:21 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  and where are we now... balanced between? (0+ / 0-)

        or inching year by year in the wrong direction. Adding up the precedents and changes and comparing them to 40 years ago, 30, 20 and even 10 years ago... and it is not exactly reassuring...

        Like playing a tug of war there seems to be vigorous resistance from the guys on the good team but the other team is using a ratcheting capstan to keep incrementally gaining more and more ground... the net result is slowly but surely in the wrong direction.

        Like a river's flood plain or soil erosion on farmland or any other incremental process (human caused Global climate change?) nobody close to the everyday reality sees the longer term change and denial is easy... everything seems relatively static with yesterday, today and tomorrow, last year this year and next not too dissimilar.... But change is happening. Can we let constitutional and civil rights ebb away, weaken or become hollow against our will? Yes if it is done slowly enough. The boiling frog metaphor does apply.

        Pogo & Murphy's Law, every time. Also "Trust but verify" - St. Ronnie (hah...)

        by IreGyre on Sat Apr 20, 2013 at 04:31:10 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  just wondering (15+ / 0-)

    have people in watertown and boston been complaining? and it might be possible that it was because of the temporary massive police presence that the suspect had to spend the day hidden in a boat.

    The cold passion for truth hunts in no pack. -Robinson Jeffers

    by Laurence Lewis on Fri Apr 19, 2013 at 08:48:53 PM PDT

    •  Frogs slowly boiled to death don't complain either (0+ / 0-)
      •  yes, slowly boiled in voluntary police requests (5+ / 0-)

        that are rescinded in the end. And the police have gone home.

        But, alas, police in the streets searching for someone and cordoning off anything with more square footage than a squirrel's dick is the jackboots coming down on our necks, eh?

      •  and this was no slow boil (7+ / 0-)

        it was a massive boil for one day, people stayed away from the heat, and it's over. but it's good of you to be more concerned than the people who actually lived it. the people who might have been concerned about two bomb-carrying terrorists in their neighborhood.

        The cold passion for truth hunts in no pack. -Robinson Jeffers

        by Laurence Lewis on Fri Apr 19, 2013 at 09:04:18 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Wrong again. (7+ / 0-)

        Boiling frogs do not go quietly.

        At least make the effort to put together a reality-based argument.

        "Do it in the name of Heaven; you can justify it in the end..." - Dennis Lambert & Brian Potter

        by pragmaticidealist on Fri Apr 19, 2013 at 09:15:25 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  First you say all civil liberties were (6+ / 0-)

        stripped in the space of a few hours.

        Then you claim its a slooooow stripping of civil liberties.

        "What could BPossibly go wrong??" -RLMiller "God is just pretend." - eru

        by nosleep4u on Fri Apr 19, 2013 at 09:27:32 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  The erosion of our rights is a slow process. (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          RfrancisR, IreGyre

          Culminating in what we saw in MA and the abysmal "discourse" now.

          YOU really think what happened was "acceptable", that's the frightening part here.

          DUE PROCESS has always meant "judicial due process".  Probable cause, search warrant, arrest, indictment and then possibly conviction.

          Nope, we don't need that damn piece of paper today, "It's for your safety!"

          -7.62; -5.95 The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite insane.~Tesla

          by gerrilea on Fri Apr 19, 2013 at 10:31:01 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  We've seen airports and schools and (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            crose, pistolSO

            all kinds of public places evacuated throughout our lifetimes. We have always followed whatever orders we are given by the police.

            It's called - SAFETY

            This is their profession, not ours. You follow procedures in order to save freakin' lives.

            •  What are you talking about? (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              RfrancisR, IreGyre

              "Following orders"?

              Who's the master and who's the slave again?

              Airports can make contractual agreements to sign over their security to our government, they don't have to.

              Schools??? Who's talking about schools?  Was there a "fire drill" and I missed it?

              You can call it "safety", I might also, but there are legitimate constitutional issues that need to be addressed here.

              The constitution doesn't get "put on hold" because of safety.  Due process is and always shall be, "judicial".

              The Day 'Due Process' Died: Obama, Holder and the End of Rights

              “Due process” and “judicial process” are not one and the same, particularly when it comes to national security. The Constitution guarantees due process, not judicial process.

              -7.62; -5.95 The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite insane.~Tesla

              by gerrilea on Fri Apr 19, 2013 at 10:48:11 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  If a school has a terrorist cornered (0+ / 0-)

                isn't an effin fire drill.

                If an airport has a bomb scare, it isn't an effin fire drill.'

                Professionals take over because they are experienced and have way more effin knowledge on these matters than we do.

                Yes. Orders. As in - GET OUT -THIS WAY

                •  Okey dokey then... (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:

                  How many schools have cornered terrorists?

                  How many airports?

                  The "professionals that take over" must follow that damn piece of paper.

                  Please learn to deal with it.

                  It's one thing if they are in "hot pursuit", like with OJ, and an entirely different thing if they don't know where he is.  
                  And clearly they didn't, it was a civilian that spotted the guy.

                  Their "hot pursuit" was kabuki theater, nothing more.  He would have been caught without the declaration of martial law or the shredding of the constitution.  

                  Take a moment and review this interview with Naomi Wolf on the Colbert Report, keep in mind it was recorded in 2007.  


                  #1: "Invoking a terrifying internal and external threat"

                  -7.62; -5.95 The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite insane.~Tesla

                  by gerrilea on Fri Apr 19, 2013 at 11:48:40 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Exactly! (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:

                    When's the last time we had a known terrorist running loose in a city with an extreme potential to kill innocent people that was identified almost as quickly as his heinous act was perpetrated?

                    Sure, by all means, continue making the argument that the police shouldn't come out in force and catch the guy ASAP.

                    Maybe next time, they'll ask the citizens of whichever town gets it next to lock-and-load and start patrolling the streets themselves, detaining and interrogating anyone they deem suspicious (blacks, mexicans, and other non-white people; see: Reddit, NYPost) and doling out justice as they see fit (see Ann Coulter, Red State, Tea Party.)

                    I have changed my signature. I've added my Flickr photostream. Take a look. We'll BOTH appreciate it.

                    by Stand Strong on Sat Apr 20, 2013 at 04:54:00 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Um, point to where I said the police shouldn't (0+ / 0-)

                      get the bad guy?  Oh, I didn't.

                      I said, when they do, they must follow the constitution.

                      Why would you wish for vigilante justice?  Did I even come close to suggesting that? Oh, that's right, I didn't.

                      Your straw arguments don't means shit.

                      -7.62; -5.95 The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite insane.~Tesla

                      by gerrilea on Sat Apr 20, 2013 at 05:56:48 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

        •  reminds me of another movie quote (0+ / 0-)
          Dr. Joseph Dolan: You know, it's a shame about Ed.
          Fletch: Oh, it was. Yeah, it was really a shame. To go so suddenly like that.
          Dr. Joseph Dolan: Ahh, he was dying for years.
          Fletch: Sure, but... the end was really... very sudden.
          Dr. Joseph Dolan: He was in intensive care for eight weeks!
          Fletch: Yeah, but I mean the very end, when he actually died. That was extremely sudden.

          Gondwana has always been at war with Laurasia.

          by AaronInSanDiego on Sat Apr 20, 2013 at 03:42:00 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  I'm wondering whether workers who (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Laurence Lewis, gerrilea, efrenzy

      are non-salaried and msised a day of work today will lose their wages? If so, this may represent a hardship for some. I have seen absolutely no discussion of this quibble anywhere.

      •  hardship? (5+ / 0-)

        you know what might have represented a hardship to some? getting their legs or arms or faces blown off by IEDs planted all around boston. getting shot in the head by an ar-15. getting carjacked by terrorists.

        this was, quite literally, a matter of life and death public safety. tough luck on missing out on 7 hours pay. consolation prize is you get to remain alive.

        •  Spoken by someone secure in his or her (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:

          life of privilege who has never lived from paycheck to paycheck.

          I think you're way out of line.

          •  dude (7+ / 0-)

            this was a national security emergency. do you not understand this? what do you think should be the threshold for staying home from work? nuclear fallout? a tsunami? the soviet union reconstituting in order to invade, red dawn style? this was quite literally a matter of life and death.

            and thank you very much, i live paycheck to paycheck every week. and do you know what the operative word in that phrase is? LIVE. i stayed home today like everyone else.

            •  What part of "national" could two people pose (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:

              To our "security"?

              Did they have nuclear weapons? Nope.

              Did they have "weapons of mass destruction? Nope.

              YOU'VE got to be kidding.  Stoking the fear and paranoia card doesn't work with me, I live paycheck to paycheck and will you make up my hourly wage when I'm ordered off the streets?

              Here in Buffalo, we've had "driving bans" during bad snow storms and I've had to drive into work anyways.  And you can ask any freaking resident former or current if their employer pays them if they don't show up for work.  If they close early, do they get paid for the lost wages?  Do they get anything? NOPE, NOPE & NOPE.

              -7.62; -5.95 The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite insane.~Tesla

              by gerrilea on Fri Apr 19, 2013 at 10:39:01 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  you mean (5+ / 0-)

                aside from the fact that they shot and killed a cop 1.5 blocks from an unsecured HEU reactor in the middle of a major metropolitan area? aside from the fact that it was and remains unknown whether they were working with other accomplices or terror cells in boston or elsewhere to plan or carry out additional conventional and/or unconventional attacks around the united states? aside from the fact that it was and remains unknown if they possessed any other armaments, including unconventional weapons? aside from the fact that the police found and detonated additional pressure cooker-based bombs in cambridge today? aside from the fact that they were on the loose with semi-automatic weapons and explosives and were clearly willing to wantonly murder innocent bystanders in and around boston? asid from the fact that they had already murdered and/or severely injured hundreds of innocent people in the signature international event that boston hosts every year, focusing the attention of the entire world on us?

                i mean, based on your logic, why was 9/11 a national emergency? they only hijacked a few planes. there are over 300,000,000 people in america. twice that many planes wouldnt even make a dent in the population, and plus they only crashed in two different states, and there were only like 20 terrorists. dont we have like a million army dudes in our army? more like a new york city emergency, right?

                •  So, the trillions we've spent and the liberties (0+ / 0-)

                  we've lost were all for naught?

                  aside from the fact that it was and remains unknown whether they were working with other accomplices or terror cells in boston or elsewhere to plan or carry out additional conventional and/or unconventional attacks around the united states?
                  Seriously, I'm not that stupid.

                  -7.62; -5.95 The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite insane.~Tesla

                  by gerrilea on Sat Apr 20, 2013 at 12:24:00 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  yeah, it would have been be weird to think (0+ / 0-)

                    that two guys who just detonated giant IEDs in the middle of crowded city streets might be part of a terrorist cell that intended further attacks. such a thing has never happened before, and it would have been foolish and rash for law enforcement agencies to even consider that angle.

                    •  Hon, the police state apparatus we've paid (0+ / 0-)

                      billions for,while shredding that damn piece of paper tells me it was all for naught.  They should have intercepted these guys before they blew up their bombs.

                      -7.62; -5.95 The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite insane.~Tesla

                      by gerrilea on Sat Apr 20, 2013 at 05:33:41 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

              •  are you kidding me? (4+ / 0-)
                YOU'VE got to be kidding.  Stoking the fear and paranoia card doesn't work with me, I live paycheck to paycheck and will you make up my hourly wage when I'm ordered off the streets?
                no one was stopping anyone from going to work in boston today except within a small perimeter surrounding an active crime scene in watertown where an actual terrorist was on the loose. did he plant bombs and booby traps in the area? was he hiding in the bushes waiting to shoot commuters come daybreak? all unknown, and all completely plausible scenarios from law enforcement and public safety standpoints. again, if you were more informed about this you wouldnt be so wrong.

                i know a lot of people working in the trades. im pretty sure they'd rather go without $100 if that meant risking a bullet in the head. oh, im stoking paranoia? everyone in boston spent the last week staring at mangled and bloodied corpses laying in their own neighborhoods. and last night a fucking rambo meets  die hard terrorist running gun battle was raging through the streets of watertown, mass. the last time watertown saw action like that was in 1776.

                •  I didn't see any terrorists but an angry American (0+ / 0-)

                  What hasn't been answered yet is: Did our foreign policy create this angry immigrant?  If that's the case then we're in deep shit.

                  "Working in the trades", "Go without a $100"---I make $9 an hour, after taxes I take home $295 a week.  If I get lucky and get overtime, I might bring home, $345.  Yahoo!

                  As for the " risking a bullet in the head", how many times have you been mugged, assaulted or held up at gun point? Me: the answers are 2, 3 and 2.  That's a reality every day when you live in poor neighborhoods in America.

                  Maybe you should revise your claim of being a working man.

                  -7.62; -5.95 The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite insane.~Tesla

                  by gerrilea on Sat Apr 20, 2013 at 12:32:04 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  hey, your lack of earning power is really relevant (0+ / 0-)

                    so lets have a contest about who makes less money. that should be productive.

                    do you know how many people are assaulted and mugged at gunpoint in watertown, mass everyday? im guessing you dont, since you're from buffalo and continue to have zero knowledge of the boston area or the events that took place yesterday. let me give you a hint: very, very few. in fact, on most days, that number is zero. but do you know how many people in watertown were in the actual line of fire of actual gun and bomb-wielding international terrorists yesterday? quite a few -- go look at the videos.

                    so in that context, i just want to be clear: you feel the best way for the government to protect its citizens from extremely dangerous and ultra violent terrorist who are in the process of attacking a major metropolitan area is to:

                    1. not search for them
                    2. make fewer efforts to keep people off the streets than during a severe winter storm
                    3. advise local businesses in the area to remain open
                    4. not call in outside agencies to provide additional personnel and expertise

                    let me just say i'm glad boston didnt take your advice, and that they instead ended up apprehending a single terrorist, along with his possible conspirators, in well under 24 hours using common sense police tactics and wide-scale, voluntary community involvement.

                    as to the money thing: i'm sorry you're poor or whatever your point on this completely unrelated issue is. and in that context, i presume you are just as infuriated at the unconstitutionality of parking bans and road closures during blizzard conditions like we had in boston 2.5 months ago? its weird that we never saw any diaries about commisar deval patrick pop up at that point, even as the rights of the working man and the freedom of all americans were once again being trod down upon by the anti-snow police state.

                    •  You can't be serious here. (0+ / 0-)

                      Get through your head we are a nation ruled by law, not the Police, that law is our Constitution.  They were never granted such arbitrary powers, ever.  Even in a declared war the US Constitution is still valid and in effect, get that through your head.

                      Our government wasn't created to "protect me from myself", whether I go out in a snow storm or go out while them "terrurists" are gunning for us.

                      Ultimately it IS up to each of us to defend this nation if need be.  It is not only our duty but our obligation.  So the happy horseshit your slinging here means squat.

                      As for my finances, you made a false statement that I should forgo a couple days pay and live in fear of dying by some numbnuts hiding on a freaking boat slowly dying.  A couple days pay is the difference between me having a home or not.

                      As for the bullshit about no one, correction "very few" in MA ever gets mugged, assaulted or held up at gun point...prove it baby.  Show me some stats.

                      The choices are clear: live free without fear or not.

                      I chose to live without fear, clearly you cannot.  

                      I've never bought into the New American Police State.  We become no better than any other Banana Republic when we ignore our founding principles and the rule of law.

                      Then those "terrusts" have won.

                      "So this is how democracy dies, with thunderous applause!"

                      -7.62; -5.95 The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite insane.~Tesla

                      by gerrilea on Sat Apr 20, 2013 at 05:51:59 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

              •  Were you ever arrested (0+ / 0-)

                while driving during a driving ban? I'd guess not.

                “We are not a nation that says ‘don’t ask, don’t tell.’ We are a nation that says ‘out of many, we are one.’” -Barack Obama

                by skohayes on Sat Apr 20, 2013 at 03:45:43 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  If I had been, I'd promptly fight it and send the (0+ / 0-)

                  bill to my employer.

                  Their "SOP" is you get to work by any means necessary or you don't get paid.

                  -7.62; -5.95 The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite insane.~Tesla

                  by gerrilea on Sat Apr 20, 2013 at 05:59:15 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

            •  A "national security emergency"? Give me (0+ / 0-)

              a friggin' break. Right up there with the Cuban Missile Crisis and Pearl Harbor it was, all right.

              The same government whom you claim cares about workers' physical safety couldn't give a good goddamn whether someone is evicted for failing to pay rent or foreclosed upon for failing to pay a mortgage.

              So will the City of Boston or the Commonwealth of Mass reimburse any hourly worker for the 8 hours of wages they missed out on???

              Unless you can answer that question in the affirmative, you remain way, way out of line.

              •  why would boston reimburse workers? (0+ / 0-)

                why on earth would boston reimburse workers for lost wages when their privately-owned employers voluntarily told them to stay home from work? is that how things work where you're from?

                do you think the city of boston should reimburse all minimum wage workers when driving bans are put in place during severe snow storms and hurricanes, as routinely happens in boston?

                also, just for fun, what other public safety measures do you think should be tossed aside so that people can get to work, no matter what?

                how about federal and state holidays? do you think the city, state, or federal government should reimburse hourly workers for lost wages on weekday holidays? im going to go waaaaaaay out on a limb and say "no." so on patriots day on monday, which is a local state holiday in mass. and boston in particular, you are fine with people not being able to work, but when international terrorists are running around the city blowing people up, shooting them dead, and car-jacking them in the streets? nope. must REIMBURSE all workers or else massachusetts -- MASSACHUSETTS -- possibly the most worker-friendly state in the US -- is an anti-poor police state!

                (i'm guessing you're not aware of how ridiculous you sound when making these points)

                •  Why on earth would Boston (0+ / 0-)

                  reimburse workers for lost wages? Um, because it asked workers to stay home and forgo 8 hours of wages and they need those wages to pay their rent, food, utilities, etc.

                  Whatever. The empathy deficit here really sucks sometimes. You exemplify said deficit.

                  •  way to not answer the question (0+ / 0-)

                    about snow days and inclement weather driving bans, which is the entire crux of my point: local and state governments take these types of public safety measures all the time. similarly: way to avoid the entire fact that all non-government places of work that were closed chose to do so voluntarily. in other words, way to entirely block from view all facts about this situation that don't support your agenda, which is to somehow turn this entire situation into an economic issue, which it is not.

                    Whatever. The empathy deficit here really sucks sometimes. You exemplify said deficit.
                    seriously, dude: i'm totally thrilled that some people couldnt get to work, and therefore lost money. its not that i think their safety and ability to remain living and breathing should have trumped a single days day. it's that i am callous, and think that poor people arent important. THAT is definitely the takeaway from this weeks events in boston: massachusetts doesnt care about workers. right?
                    •  You definitely failed to consider workers' lost (0+ / 0-)

                      wages until they were brought to your attention. That's not being 'callous,' per se, but it is being 'unthinking.'

                      Your repeated use of the patronizing and dismissive 'dude' signals to me that there is little point in continuing this discussion.

              •  Boston and Mass.. (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                jaym, Ahianne

       not have to make up lost wages of people affected. There is your answer.

                They also wouldn't if an arsonist burnt down a building where people worked, or if someone took hostages in a building where people worked, or if they had evacuate people because of a fire or weather event. Maybe you think they should. That's a separate issue than whether a being asked to stay inside during an extraordinary circumstance means one lives in police state. (sigh)

                BTW Lower Manhattan was blocked off for many days after 9/11, which meant that I lost a week's work. Funny that it never occurred to me that the City of New York owed me back wages and were violating my right to wander around a crime scene. guess I'm not as smart as some people here.

                •  Yeah, I do think workers should not lose wages (0+ / 0-)

                  over this. (I also think there should be a Guaranteed Annual Income per McGovern 1972 but that's an entirely different quesiton.)

                  Maybe i should have set up a poll: how many DKosers are just fine with hourly workers losing 8 hours of pay for this?

          •  They're out of line for worrying about life and (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Otteray Scribe, worldlotus

            (literally) limb before anything else? Money is for sure incredibly important in our society, but it doesn't do you any good if you're dead.

            •  The same government you claim is so (0+ / 0-)

              concerned about citizens' physical safety couldn't give a good goddamn whether those citizens are evicted or foreclosed upon.

              This Shelter In Place order was a comfortable bourgeois decree that basically tosses the working class to the curb and right on under the bus. Quelle surprise.

    •  Yes, they were complaining (11+ / 0-)

      So much so that when the police left their neighborhood, they cheered in the streets.

      P.S. I am not a crackpot.

      by BoiseBlue on Fri Apr 19, 2013 at 09:18:00 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  no (11+ / 0-)

      no one was complaining in watertown. no one was complaining in newton. no one was complaining in cambridge. i live in boston, grew up three miles from where this kid was found, used to live on norfolk street in cambridge where these dudes lives, and know people who live all around all of those areas. and let me assure you: precisely zero people were complaining about the police today, or at any time this week. in fact, right now there is a general feeling of goodwill toward the police that i dont even remember after 9/11, or at any other time in my life. and let me say further: i am not usually one to fawn over police. in fact, i rarely cut them a break at all. but today they are heros in this city, and for good reason.

      this diary is absurd.

    •  Agree. So does our favorite pirate. (11+ / 0-)

      Rudeness is a weak imitation of strength. - Eric Hoffer

      by Otteray Scribe on Fri Apr 19, 2013 at 08:53:00 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  not from me ... (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      edwardssl, Otteray Scribe, Matt Z, Ahianne

      how are you this evening?

      "If you are sure you understand everything that is going on around you, you are hopelessly confused." Walter Mondale

      by klompendanser on Fri Apr 19, 2013 at 08:53:25 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Sleepy. I don't think Kahlua and Creams (4+ / 0-)

        are supposed to be served in 16 oz glasses.

        But I sure didn't refuse it when my daughter made it for me.

        How's it going up there?  Any melting?  Or at least, enough that you don't have to shovel?

        •  ha, but I bet it tastes really good! (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:

          Sun peaked out for a bit, but it is going down to the 20s tonight. I'm hoping for some sun tomorrow ... a neighbor took care of my driveway, but I got a mess on my deck I'd rather not have deal with.

          "If you are sure you understand everything that is going on around you, you are hopelessly confused." Walter Mondale

          by klompendanser on Fri Apr 19, 2013 at 08:59:49 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Ah, yes. The melt and freeze. (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:

            Please be careful of the ice going out of your house in the morning, if you do that kind of thing on Saturdays.

            I usually don't, but I'm going to the LDS research center to review a microfilm to try and locate the birth record of a (counts on fingers) g-g-g-g-g- grandfather, born near Westerkappeln Germany ca 1734.  I'm supposed to be getting the file ready to take with me, but I'm just about to faceplant on my keyboard as it is.

            Anyway, fergit the deck.  It'll melt.

    •  Precedent or one time only event? (0+ / 0-)

      and after decades of War on Drugs, decades of militarization of our increasingly out of control police forces in more jurisdictions, a decade of War on terror, recent orchestrated suppression of OWS, Citizens United and Corporate empowerment... this recent situation will be just an exception that will never be become more "normal"? Using people's fears to justify more and larger State levels and conditions to justify imposing public safety measures is an old process and we have been in a long term evolution to a nation with far more police powers granted to "protect" us more.... at some point it will have gone too far but it will be with the full support of a fearful majority...

      So this is how liberty dies -- with thunderous applause. (Amidala in Star Wars: Episode III: Revenge of the Sith)
      “The common people will let it go. Oh yes, they’ll sell liberty for a quieter life. Anthony Burgess, A Clockwork Orange.

      But not just in Fiction

      "As nightfall does not come all at once, neither does oppression. In both instances, there is a twilight when everything remains seemingly unchanged. And it is in such a twilight that all must be most aware of change in the air--however slight--lest we become unwitting victims of the darkness." - Justice William O. Douglas

      Pogo & Murphy's Law, every time. Also "Trust but verify" - St. Ronnie (hah...)

      by IreGyre on Sat Apr 20, 2013 at 05:05:42 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Would someone please notify me (20+ / 0-)

    when the diarist switches gears and begins blaming all of this on the President?

    I'm gonna take a nap.

    I have changed my signature. I've added my Flickr photostream. Take a look. We'll BOTH appreciate it.

    by Stand Strong on Fri Apr 19, 2013 at 08:53:37 PM PDT

    •  Know what? I'm gonna skip the nap and here's why (21+ / 0-)

      I live in Philly and while it's not Afghanistan, we got plenty of crime here on any given day but I'll tell ya what....

      If there's a fucking TERRORIST running around my city with bombs and guns, prepared to do who knows what to get away/live, and after having just set off two bombs at a highly packed event days earlier, killing three, wounding almost two hundred and in the aftermath, murder an innocent bystander (the MIT cop), carjack some dude and run over one another in the getaway vehicle while engaging police with guns and explosives and the police want to knock on my door and say

      "Uh, sir/ma'am. Hi, police here. Look, we can't really force you to stay in your house but we're going to make a really, REALLY strong recommendation why you should, for your own safety, and for ours, stay inside your home for the immediate future and lock your doors 'cuz this CRAZY FUCKING TERRORIST just might be in your neighborhood and shit, we don't really know exactly where he is at the moment but we really, really want to catch him..."
      I'm gonna stay in my goddamn house.

      And you know what I'm going to do when the all-clear is given?

      I'm going to THANK the cops!

      I have changed my signature. I've added my Flickr photostream. Take a look. We'll BOTH appreciate it.

      by Stand Strong on Fri Apr 19, 2013 at 09:06:52 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  It's really hard for me to take a side on this (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Eternal Hope, Minnesota Deb

    because I don't live in Boston and don't have a good sense of how reasonable the size of the "lockdown" was. I am however glad that the Feds and Boston police handled it much better than the LA police who shot up the truck of two women delivering newspapers.

  •  Note to Police Staters (13+ / 0-)

    This is probably not the best time to promote your argument. In fact, it's probably the worst.

  •  citizens of Boston taking to streets to voice (11+ / 0-)

    their displeasure with the police state, chanting "Boston! Boston! Boston!." Damn, filthy fascist displays of civic pride!

  •  as someone in boston (21+ / 0-)

    this diary strikes me as one of the most preposterous, most misguided, and most embarrassing diaries i've seen in a long time.

    there were (at least) two violent terrorists on the loose, paralyzing this city with fear. they were armed with grenades, IEDs, and automatic weapons. and do you know all those bostonians who were protesting the shelter in place order because they felt their rights were being trampled? oh yeah, you probably don't, since nobody was upset about it. they welcomed it. why do you think people are surrounding police cars on the street all over metro boston as i type this so that they can shake cops hands ? because all of us here in boston feel like we're in a police state? come on. . .

    the fact that this diary is even here is an embarrassment to dailykos.

    •  thank you! I don't get taking the piss... (7+ / 0-)

      out of our union brothers and sisters up there who did their jobs as law enforcement. You're right--diaries like this are embarrassing and misguided.

    •  agree except I don't feel we were "paralysed with (5+ / 0-)

      fear" though many are saying that.

      This was not "chaos". We were purposely "paralyses"-closed down, planfully, as a tactic. Most citizens complied NOT out of fear but out of a sense of contribution to the cause of finding and apprehending this suspect as quickly as possible and with minimal loss of life.

      They made it so EVERY CITiZEN' regular life was put in pause. ALL were aware to be vigilent. It is even possible that the state of awareness they created in that homeowner caused him to check his boat in the backyard, notice the blood, and lift the tarp to find the suspect.

      They made people take this seriously. They cleared the roads and sidewalks so the suspect had no people to blend in with. THey stopped the T and taxis so he could not get around.

      He was found only a short distance out of their original search area in the same town.

    •  Did you see Rey Pensador's? (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:

      They're well matched.

      Cogito, ergo Democrata.

      by Ahianne on Sat Apr 20, 2013 at 10:16:42 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  I am not a fan of the police (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    worldlotus, Minnesota Deb, Matt Z

    but Stand Strong, right above here, makes the comment I'd make if it weren't already made.

    The dude would have had more of an opportunity to get away, theoretically, if the city hadn't been locked down. More people could have gotten hurt or killed.

    He was hiding because there was no one on the street and he'd be noticed if he tried to get away. Oh, also because he'd been shot and was bleeding. That might have gotten him noticed. Then people would have freaked and ka-blooey!

    I hate coppers. I avoid them. I cross the street if they're on foot coming towards me. I don't make eye contact.

    But this is what they're good for.

  •  I would stay inside, but for a different reason (0+ / 0-)

    I'm not worried about being offed by a bomber--there are only 2 of them, and one is dead, so what are the chances?  But, there are thousands of police, heavily armed, and very few are trained for actual combat.  If you doubt that, listen to the radio calls during the firefight last night.  There are exceptions, and those are the officers that are in the guard and reserves, and some with strong military backgrounds, but many  just do not have enough training for me to trust their judgement and I want to avoid contact with them, if possible.

  •  Seriously?? (10+ / 0-)

    The Boston Police, FBI, and other law enforcement did everything right, all while risking their own lives.

    1. No further citizens were hurt or injured. Let me repeat that. No further citizens were hurt or injured. This was due to the lockdown.

    2. The armed and highly dangerous suspect was contained to a specific area. There was NO way out. Why? The lockdown.

    3. Yes, it was a citizen that discovered the suspect in the boat. But let me ask you this, if there were not a lockdown, is it possible that the citizen would not have been at home to discover the suspect?

    I'm pretty sure that the Boston citizens found it quite inconvenient not to be able to exercise their "civil liberties" for 30 hours while law enforcement worked their asses off to find the suspect that terrorized their city. From the footage we've seen thus far of crowds applauding the police, it's clear that these citizens are highly upset about the so-called "failure".


    •  Actually, they were lucky (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:

      Too many rounds were fired, ineffectively.  When the Mercedes was first stopped--that should have been the end of it, but it wasn't.  The vehicle was not disabled, and the suspect escaped--that should NEVER have happened, and I submit that the officers involved were not properly trained to deal with a situation where the perpetrators actually fought back.  Granted, one suspect was killed and the other wounded, but they were outnumbered and upgunned and should have been stopped right then and there.   That failure led to the shutdown of an entire metro area, and I really hope that the BPD realizes that they have  shortcomings and make the necessary corrections.

      •  No doubt, (0+ / 0-)

        there will be a LOT of internal investigation going on. What they did right, what they did wrong.
        The incident with the early morning shootout will probably be at the forefront of those investigations.
        I wonder if the problem is partially lack of funding for training programs, and partially spending most of that money on training SWAT teams rather than the street officers.
        Wasn't it in NYC a few months back where police got into a shootout with a suspect and 9 civilians were injured?
        This problem isn't limited to the BPD.

        “We are not a nation that says ‘don’t ask, don’t tell.’ We are a nation that says ‘out of many, we are one.’” -Barack Obama

        by skohayes on Sat Apr 20, 2013 at 03:55:17 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  There are some deep truths embedded in your (0+ / 0-)

        post and one hopes that the Boston PD will do an after-action review that examines the events of the Mercedes stop and firefight in detail. Many residents could have been killed or wounded in that firefight and I'm really glad none were, other than the elder of the two brothers.

  •  Dammit. (4+ / 0-)

    I lost the bet with myself that some idiot would a numnuts diary like this.

    Dammit. Dammit. Dammit.

    Certainly from our standpoint, this gives us a sense of momentum -- when the United States has accolades tossed its way, rather than shoes. - PJ Crowley

    by nsfbr on Fri Apr 19, 2013 at 09:37:19 PM PDT

  •  Glenn Beck called. (5+ / 0-)

    He is pissed that you are stealing his batshit insane schtick.

    Most of the people taking a hard line against us are firmly convinced that they are the last defenders of civilization... The last stronghold of mother, God, home and apple pie and they're full of shit! David Crosby, Journey Thru the Past.

    by Mike S on Fri Apr 19, 2013 at 09:43:28 PM PDT

  •  what complete and utter bullshit of the highest (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    BFSkinner, skohayes, Matt Z


  •  Rhetorical Excercise to Net 100 Comments, 3 Recs! (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Matt Z


  •  One of the added benefits in keeping people (0+ / 0-)

    in their homes is how much easier it is for the police to do searches in homes, as well as having few empty homes for terrorists to hide in. Thus it gives the federal agencies an idea of what's going on behind most closed doors.

  •  I'm in Boston and both disgree and do not follow (11+ / 0-)

    MANDATORY "stay in your home or you will be arrested" tramples on our civil liberties.

    We in Boston had a civil "shelter in place" order. I heard it as a strong suggestion. MOST people complied to help police.

    And guess what? It did. The second suspect was found in a residential neighborhood. IN WATERTOWN. And was captured after a shootout.

    Good thing there weren't a lot of people on the streets when that occurred. Apparently there were two other shootouts with Police over the last day also.

    I REALLY DO THINK the searching home to home HAD PROBABLE CAUSE in Watertown. You say it did not. It  did.

    My understanding --any lawyer here can correct this if wrong--is that you can officially refuse police when being searched house to house. But law abiding citizens don't do this because They Want  To Help.

    No arrest, no penalty...not even a fine...if you were out and about on the streets today that' I've heard of. My foolish cousin went to work, she posted on FB. She did not post any reprisal.

    We live in the CommonWeallth of Massachusetts. We care about eachothers common-wealth. They lifted the order this evening before they found the guy because they did not want to keep people in place too long. Do you not think that if the People thought the request to stay in for 12 hrs was an abuse they'd have reacted? If it went longer, do you think we would have taken it lying down? If people were being fined or arrested do you think there wouldn't be complaints?

    I do not think so.

    MA has been settled for 400 years. I have to admit that we trust our local government or rather, government in general, elected by the people, to act for  benign purposes. I also think we trust ourselves to know when they are not.

  •  oh, and by the way (6+ / 0-)

    that place where they shot the MIT cop? its about 1.5 blocks from one of the few HEU nuclear reactors in the country, also at MIT. these guys grew up less than a mile away. they would have known exactly where that reactor is.

    unlike most spent fuel, which can be used to make dirty bombs, heavily enriched uranium can be used to detonate an honest to god nuclear weapon. and im just going on assumption here, but i doubt the MIT reactor has anything near the security of a nuclear power plant.

    no indication these guys were after that. its just to point out that there are all sorts of insanely dangerous things that can happen when actual, honest-to-god, non-trumped-up terrorists are running around a major metropolitan area on the loose. which is why, you know, it might be a good idea for police to behave in the vigilant and completely reasonable manner that all of boston is thanking them for right now.

  •  I must congratulate the Diarist (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    2thanks, Matt Z, Ahianne, efrenzy

    I have never seen a diary get more than 100 comments and 0 recs without the Diarist being bojoed.

    Is this supposed to be some kind of performance art?

    Ceterem censeo, gerrymandra delenda est

    by Mokurai on Fri Apr 19, 2013 at 10:36:37 PM PDT

  •  This diary is what we get... (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    skohayes, Bill W, OIL GUY

    ...for opening the "all police are bad, mmm-kay?" can of worms we opened with the histrionic response to the LAPD's handling of the Christopher Dorner case.

  •  I'm torn... (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    helfenburg, Dr Erich Bloodaxe RN

    In many directions.

    I don't really feel comfortable with the notion of allowing one crazy person to shut down a city.

    I don't really feel comfortable with the notion of that crazy person killing more innocent people.

    Was shutting down the city a reasonable precaution that helped save lives?

    Was it an overreaction or overreach?

    I'm not in the mood to come down hard on the author or the commenters who disagree with him.

    I have no certainty right now...just questions to think over.

    I will say that I certainly hope that this does not become the model for criminal investigation in this country.

    There is an old saying that bad cases make bad law.  That's generally been applied to the courts but it might be worth keeping in mind here as well.

    "I don't give them Hell. I just tell the truth about them and they think it's Hell."

    by Notthemayor on Sat Apr 20, 2013 at 01:26:46 AM PDT

    •  The little part I watched at the end to me (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Dr Erich Bloodaxe RN

      screamed collosal and I mean collosal waste of taxpayer dollars.  And I'm a tax, spend and regulate liberal.

      The elevation of appearance over substance, of celebrity over character, of short term gains over lasting achievement displays a poverty of ambition. It distracts you from what's truly important. - Barack Obama

      by helfenburg on Sat Apr 20, 2013 at 04:37:49 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  The New York Post published photos of (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    innocent men.  What if thei Miranda rights were suspended?

    It came uncomfortably close to a bad situation.

  •  It wouldn't be Daily Kos without people like you! (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Matt Z

    You're a treasure. And your diary will soon be buried.

    You know, I sometimes think if I could see, I'd be kicking a lot of ass. -Stevie Wonder at the Glastonbury Festival, 2010

    by Rich in PA on Sat Apr 20, 2013 at 03:54:35 AM PDT

  •  Two punks with pressure cookers closed down a (0+ / 0-)

    single city... The physical harm they did was monstrous but economic harm they did was far bigger... lost pay and suspended economic activity for the hours the city was in lockdown... imagine that scenario multiplied and happening in all the largest cities... a nightmare but one that is not impossible and the damage from the reaction and security measures would be less tangible than the acts of terror but amount to substantially  much more... And beyond this terror act and the response in one city justified or not, successful in the short term and celebrated as the conclusion was, they may actually have set in motion even wider harm. Copycats and more lockdowns and other tightening of policies that further erode liberty.

    The patriot act and other things wounded democracy far more than the cataclysm of three planes flown into large buildings. And the War on drugs has caused far more harm to the US and liberty than all the Cannabis consumed during that time. Those who mean the US harm can see that those in the US who get stampeded into overreacting do most of the work for them. If weakening or changing the US is the goal... getting new and more far reaching "Security measures" drafted and implemented... AND ACCEPTED by most Americans is the best way to do it.

    Pogo & Murphy's Law, every time. Also "Trust but verify" - St. Ronnie (hah...)

    by IreGyre on Sat Apr 20, 2013 at 05:34:25 AM PDT

  •  Which Paul wrote this diary? (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Mike S, Matt Z

    Ron or Rand?  

    170 comments with 5 in the tip jar should be a message.  

    Political compass: -8.75 / -4.72

    by Mark Mywurtz on Sat Apr 20, 2013 at 05:59:34 AM PDT

  •  I'm reccing this for the wonderful debate it (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    has engendered. I don't believe you deserve all the invective and insults being thrown your way. This is an issue that, whichever way one leans, must be discussed and thoroughly vetted. Thank you for posting it.

  •  I commend you for daring to write the unpopular (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    even if I would disagree with some of the wording and conclusions.

    The reality on the ground is that the suspects were identified from victim statements and voluntarily donated media, first located when they themselves panicked, and that the remaining suspect was located by a citizen reporting blood he spotted.

    The shutdowns and door to door searches can't be shown to have contributed in any useful fashion to any part of things, so to see them lauded as a 'model' for future problems in other diaries seems overly simplistic.

    •  If you have a known bomber loose in the city... (0+ / 0-) want people to be able to congregate in large groups on trains, in malls, in schools, in colleges, etc.

      You also want to make sure the subway/mass transit system stays open, so he can get out of Dodge quickly and elude capture by police.

      Oh, wait, no, you probably don't want either of those things.

      •  Not what I said, but nice try. (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:

        The point is to actually do things in the future based on actual evidence, not just fear.  When was the subject found?  When people went outside where they could see him.  Instead of having a million or more pairs of eyes (or whatever the population of Boston is) able to spot him, the police actually narrowed it down to just however many police there were.  They were smart enough to crowdsource the identification, then went back to the same old 'Stay out of the way and let the police find him' model, which didn't actually produce results until the 'stay in homes' was lifted, and a regular member of the public could go outside and see his tracks.

        •  Uh, no, that's not how the chronology worked. (0+ / 0-)

          But whatever you want to believe, go ahead and believe.

          Had the shelter-in-place voluntary request, the homeowner, who actually never went outside, would have gone to work, rather than stayed home.  Unless he has superpowers, he wasn't going to take his land-locked boat to work; he would have driven.  He would never have had a reason to look in the back yard at all, and he wouldn't have been there when the request was lifted.

          Moreover, limiting the number of people on the streets meant a greater likelihood that if Djokhar was, in fact, on the loose (instead of bleeding under the boat's tarp), they would have spotted him much easier than if there were crowds and crowds of people on the street.

          Instead, the cops came to the same conclusion I had at that point in the day: Djokhar was injured in the first firefight, and hiding somewhere, possibly unable to actually move very far.

          So...  good try yourself, but you can't shoehorn these facts into your glass slipper theory.

  •  My only couple of questions are: (0+ / 0-)

    What is the legal justification of  a area wide lock down? Is it legal?

    How about Search without a warrant, probable cause?

    Just asking?

    Would I have the Right to object to the search  of my home if I lived in Boston? Did anyone?  If not could they sue? Were they asked  if they could come in or just demand entry.. if so this is coercion and illegal?  I see lawsuits I think. I would sue. I don't like my right trampled. but I am not an attorney  so am looking to those who may have legal backgrounds the  details.

    "We need a revolution away from the plutocracy that runs Government."

    by hangingchad on Mon Apr 22, 2013 at 05:06:20 PM PDT

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