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First of all I would like to praise all the first responders and medical teams for their superb work, and to express our love and support for all those touched by the horrific bombings in Boston.

However, I do have some serious questions in the aftermath.

Perhaps our homeland security forces and our press might have learnt something from this experience?

The act itself was horrific, live and direct, yet the response seemed to be panicked and horribly heavy handed.

We had the press go into an absolute feeding frenzy demonstrating shockingly egregious reporting.

We then had images broadcast world wide of "persons of interest" by the security services.

Further murder, a major gunfight, resulting in a locked down major city with enough arms on display to start a major war.

We then have a senator calling for the suspension of constitutional rights of one of our citizens.

Never mind the frothing crazy and racism coming out of many fringe media outlets.

I'm just wondering if old fashioned investigation methods and a little discretion might have resulted in a cleaner result, it would have course resulted in lower viewing figures and fewer column inches.

Am I the only one thinking that by publishing photos of the main suspects on national and international TV might just induce panic in the suspects? Perhaps a little discrete questioning of local people, or a search on the internet might have lead to a cleaner arrest? Have a look first, then if you cannot find them publish the photos?

The pressure for instant resolution in the insta-need society are very high; but do we really need to go into panic mode?

Perhaps all involved need to take a step back and review the response and rather than increase the fear and terror by having a reassuring and measured response; for example:

A media that helps rather than hinders, speculation is the refuge of the ill informed. It is not a TV show that needs the ratings otherwise it gets cancelled.

A directive to our security agencies to review their actions and improve how they investigate and deal with the media without letting the suspects know the posse is on their tail.

That certain politicians and talking heads learn that silence is indeed golden when you have nothing useful to contribute other than to assuage your own ego/hatred.

I hope some lessons have been learnt, and perhaps patience and intelligence are key in this type of situation; at least this time [so far] we haven't decided to invade another country.

I'm trying to avoid all the speculative reasoning as to "why" and to definitely avoid the hate spewing segments of our population.

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Comment Preferences

    •  As long as the media is owned by 6-7 Corps and (43+ / 0-)

      only cares about money, not reporting the facts..... you can pretty much count on a feeding frenzy whenever there is something ugly going on in this country.  Their purpose is no longer to help ensure the health of our democracy through the relaying of factual and correct news of the day. Now it's all just emotions, glitz, and sensationalism. We used to laugh at the National Enquirer because of the silly stories they ran, now that's our nightly news!!  

      Corporations before people.... it's the American way!

      by Lucy2009 on Sun Apr 21, 2013 at 12:48:04 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Military and law enforcement have a very (53+ / 0-)

      serious process that I think is still called 'After Action Review'.

      They. Look. At. Every. Detail.  To improve prevention, preparation, early intervention, outcome. Equipment, costs, planning, etc. are considered.

      A lot of what was successful had been learned from Columbine, Va Tech, 9/11, Sandy Hook, etc. etc. Having watched Columbine up close and personal, the coordination of different agencies and jurisdictions was light years of improvement. Also over 911.

      I think the release of the suspects photos was not that unusual. That they freaked out strikes me as more unusual. Definitely has been commentary by folks surprised they had no exit plan. They were all about provocation.

      If you haven't seen this, they were not both in the hijacked SUV when the 200 round exchange of gunfire happened. They had picked up another vehicle - authorities had not figured that piece out when the article was printed. During the car chase and at that site they had been throwing a variety of bombs, not all exploded. A lot of pipe bombs as I recall. The cops were surrounding the 26 year old who was out of ammo when the younger one drove the other car at them. They backed off, he ran over his brother and took off.

      That's a lot of area to look for bombs and defuse. They also had to search the apartment, which had more explosives. The brothers had admitted to the owner of the carjacked vehicle they were the marathon bombers. They took his money from an ATM and let him go.  Even better, his cell phone was left in the SUV. The cops were able to track it.

      Journalism pros interviewed by McClatchy were supportive of Boston getting more media than West, TX. It was considered suspense while the fire was a surprise but not so unknown or unusual. Seemed to me Boston was both.

      "People, even more than things, have to be restored, renewed, revived, reclaimed and redeemed; never throw out anyone. " Audrey Hepburn "A Beautiful Woman"

      by Ginny in CO on Sun Apr 21, 2013 at 03:39:08 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Good points; It is tricky (6+ / 0-)

        Very hard for us Monday morning quarterbacks to fairly judge the proceedings without knowing all that they knew, regardless a few notes.

        I DO worry about the message sent by locking down an entire city, gathering enough cops/weapons to invade a small country, and rush to confrontation.

        I worry that copycat terrorists will look at all this and think; "it doesn't take millions in logistics, pilot lessons, tons of luck, international backing. . . just a small team."  Terrorists want panic and attention and they got a message this week that they can easily get both with far less effort than they had thought.

        I was absolutely shocked at the number of LEO's coming in by the busload. To be sure, it was a unique situation where a heavily armed person was on the lose in a relatively small space.

        Dunno, honestly don't, I agree with the OP and yet I also see some very unique acts coming together to create such an extreme reponse. Easy to second guess now.

        Blessed are the peacemakers, the poor, the meek and the sick. Message to Repug Fundies: "DO you really wonder "what would Jesus do?" I didn't think so.

        by 4CasandChlo on Sun Apr 21, 2013 at 06:30:41 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  I give credit to those in Watertown who said (11+ / 0-)

          their house was searched like 2 or 3 times in that lockdown period. One woman said it was because her basement door had no lock and neither did her sheds.  And one guy said his home was searched 3 times but both of these residents seemed fine with it and stayed calm and cool. I credit them being Ok with that as all that house searching ..multiple times for a few of the residents...cannot be easy if there are small kids in the house and heavily armed police and SWAT going through the house not once but twice in less than 24 hours.  

          My friend said this has taught her to get a lock on her shed and a better lock for her basement door, etc..because some residents said they did not have locks on these places where people could easily hide.

          Follow PA Keystone Liberals on Twitter: @KeystoneLibs

          by wishingwell on Sun Apr 21, 2013 at 07:01:51 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Excellant point: (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            wishingwell, StateofEuphoria

            As I said, I don't know all the specifics, nor the underlying reason why what was done was done. I am glad that your friend had such great soncern from the police.

            I can be in full agreement with what was done and still regret that others will see the opportunity to spread terror, that was all I was saying.

            Please don't read mine as saying I feel comfortable judging what happened, far from it.

            Blessed are the peacemakers, the poor, the meek and the sick. Message to Repug Fundies: "DO you really wonder "what would Jesus do?" I didn't think so.

            by 4CasandChlo on Sun Apr 21, 2013 at 07:24:05 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  it is in fact the kind of neighborhood (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Ginny in CO

            where some people do not lock their doors at all the way we do in teh big bad city.  flimsy door latches that can be sprung with a credit card are not adequate protection.

            Politics is like driving. To go backward put it in R. To go forward put it in D.
            Drop by The Grieving Room on Monday nights for support in dealing with grief.

            by TrueBlueMajority on Sun Apr 21, 2013 at 12:06:59 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

        •  That they didn't get away is important. These were (6+ / 0-)

          not suicide bombers. They appear right now to have wanted to get away from their bombs and perhaps escape somewhere else. And that they didn't get away, there were cameras that caught their images, they were id'd within days and they were killed or captured is a very important message that the authorities have sent to any future bombers.  

          If they are determined to be part of a bigger network, al qaeda, etc.,   it's clear that those networks don't have a big number of people in the states who are willing to be suicide bombers, and not that many who are willing to plant bombs and run away.   It sends a good message this incident ends in capture/death for 'escape'-bombers too.

        •  Al Qaeda and other terrorist groups (0+ / 0-)

          have been trying to train individuals/small groups for terrorist attacks just like this one, in the USA and elsewhere, according to numerous news reports.

          Terrorists want panic and attention and they got a message this week that they can easily get both with far less effort than they had thought.

          “We do not inherit the earth from our ancestors; we borrow it from our children” ― Chief Seattle

          by SoCalSal on Sun Apr 21, 2013 at 11:38:58 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]


          asked STAY inside. I was at the other end of the city. I went grocery shopping. i watched local news, and OFFICIAL INFORMATION.

          They got attention. After the first few minutes, no, even during the few minutes, there was little panic.

          Any yahoo(s) planning anything else will try elsewhere, don't you think?

          A new textbook will be written. Dedication page: DON'T. FUCK. WITH. BOSTON.

          2012-2016 President Obama, Vice President Biden, Senator Warren. For a LIFETIME, federal judges. Get the filibuster changed. Steamroll.

          by CuriousBoston on Mon Apr 22, 2013 at 03:45:01 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  I wonder if that man left his cell phone in his (6+ / 0-)

        vehicle on purpose which would help police track bombers or probably by accident. But whatever it was, it certainly did help police.  As I am thinking that it is natural for us to want to keep our cell phnes on our person should this happen but in this case, dude not having his cell phone helped police track the suspects.

        Follow PA Keystone Liberals on Twitter: @KeystoneLibs

        by wishingwell on Sun Apr 21, 2013 at 06:57:47 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  The politicians will argue with them though, and (0+ / 0-)

        then thwart their efforts to improve things.

        You can't make this stuff up.

        by David54 on Sun Apr 21, 2013 at 07:07:54 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  This has become the new normal (0+ / 0-)

      apparently. The mobilization was massive, for 1 guy.

    •  Internet frenzy forced police to release photos (11+ / 0-)

      The frenzy was fed by the internet & media, not police -- at least, before the lockdown on Friday.

      People who spend lots of time on the internet -- just like Kossacks -- egomaniacs who thought they could solve the case better than the police and FBI  -- along with tabloid media --  were creating a feeding frenzy that was devouring innocents who were being wrongly identified as the likely bombers.

      Police ahave siad they felt a responsibility to put a stop to that. In fact, there was a story I read about one woman in Cambridge who recognized the younger Tsarnaev from the released photos and was going to report her identification, but she read about the missing Pakistani the NY Post claimed was the suspect. So, she figured it was a coincidence of two people who looked alike.

      You're blaming the police, but the internet was creating a far larger problem.

      Also, the police were rightly concerned that the brothers were planning other, there was some urgency in identifying them. THe police had not been able to do that on their own, so soliciting help was not a bad idea, in any event.

      Did it force the Tsarnaev's to flee? Sure. That was also probably a result the police were hoping for. Better to have them on the run than planning deliberate attacks.

      While the lockdown seemed heavy-handed...and was without any historical precedent... it might have saved lives. There was no way to know how badly wounded the kid was, and whether he still posed a threat to public safety.

      Coming Soon -- to an Internet connection near you:

      by FischFry on Sun Apr 21, 2013 at 09:21:19 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I wonder if the photo release really (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:

        "forced them to flee"?

        Their first act was to assassinate a police officer who was not looking for them. In fact, they reportedly walked up to his car with him in it, engaged in conversation then drew a gun and shot him dead.

        That's not the act of someone forced to flee, but (as police speculate now) the act of someone who wants a large confrontation.

        They car-jacked a guy, told him they were the bombers and let him go alive.

        Again, a sign they want a confrontation, not to flee.

        During the gun battle, the officers were on foot and, reportedly, their cars did not block the street, yet the bombers chose to stand and fight, with the older one brazenly walking down the street shooting at the cops.

        That the younger one then could flee in the vehicle, again, shows they chose to stand and fight rather than flee from the beginning.

        I agree with your comment, but wanted to highlight this point.  A lot of people are saying the photos forced them into the open. But, in fact, they were out of sight until they chose to assassinate a police officer.

        It appears their intent all along was to cause more death and destruction, particularly given the number of other explosive devices they had with them.

        "The law is meant to be my servant and not my master, still less my torturer and my murderer." -- James Baldwin. July 11, 1966.

        by YucatanMan on Sun Apr 21, 2013 at 01:14:32 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  There was no lockdown, until the very end in (0+ / 0-)

        Waterown. I was at the other end of the city. I went grocery shopping. I listened to local news, no tv until the guy was caught.

        Heavy handed? No.

        2012-2016 President Obama, Vice President Biden, Senator Warren. For a LIFETIME, federal judges. Get the filibuster changed. Steamroll.

        by CuriousBoston on Mon Apr 22, 2013 at 03:48:49 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  Yes, the multiple "breaking" diaries on DKos (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      ban nock, SoCalSal

      were not needed. The diaries inculding unsourced tweets were not needed. The geographic confusion about Boston and the surrounding towns was not needed.

      The speculation about what was going to happen, and the color of the skin was not needed.

      The diary after diary filled with misinformation was not needed.

      One Kossack posted from WATERTOWN. Predictabally(sp), his diaries did not reach the top of the rec list.

      In the future, a MOTHERSHIP DIARY, monitored by the individuals nearby, (if it is safe to do so) would be a much better response.

      TV has an off button. Use it. There were much better sources than CNN and whatever newspaper screwed up.

      The crowdsourcing on Reddit was an online mob. It was pitiful.

      OLD FASHION INVESTIGATION METHODS? WTF? How would you have handled it, missy?

      The pictures were circulated to the Boston media, so people in the Boston area could help find the people. It worked. The Boston Police Commissinor(sp), that I have not use for, thanked the media. He did a great job, by the way.

      Did it occur to you that there might have been more than two? TIME WAS CRITICAL. People were missing radiation treatments. Glad to have your totally inexperienced view.

      The investigators could not control the media. They did need the help of the media.

      Um, yeah, you write that directive to the security agencies to improve. I'm sure we citizens of Boston and the surrounding area will support you.

      Turn off the TV, and get DKos set up with a mothership to handle the next emergency, so I won't sit here steaming at the crap that was posted here.

      If you are saying patience and intelligence re any person involved in the investigation, what I want to say would get be banned.

      2012-2016 President Obama, Vice President Biden, Senator Warren. For a LIFETIME, federal judges. Get the filibuster changed. Steamroll.

      by CuriousBoston on Sun Apr 21, 2013 at 10:26:59 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Twitter is such a poor source of information. (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        denise b

        Anyone can say anything and who cares if it comes from a reporter or someone who says he is listening to a police scanner.

        And that's another point:  Police scanners are notoriously poor indicators of reality.  They are only good for very general details. And even those are often wrong.

        And the police can switch to more secure communications if they wish, including their computer-based digital communications.

        The people, including respected "responsible" diarists here who were posting things via Twitter, were in fact irresponsible in their actions.  Many are quick now to condemn the linking of the missing Brown college student to the bombers, but a lot of that linking was occurring on DailyKOS.  Embarrassing.

        "The law is meant to be my servant and not my master, still less my torturer and my murderer." -- James Baldwin. July 11, 1966.

        by YucatanMan on Sun Apr 21, 2013 at 01:18:01 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  the media can go fuck themselves (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:

      for sensationalizing a tragedy once again

      i actually heard Brian Williams say that the cheering when the second suspect turned himself in was starting because people had heard about it from watching HIS reporting just then and then started spreading it to social media

      for the media, it's ALL about the media

      as for the way the authorities hadn't the situation.  i don't have a single complaint.  4 days and they caught the guys.  the authorities were incredible.  i wished i had been in the crowd in Boston to help cheer them on.

      and as for attention seeking legislators from other states and cities making insensitive comments or calling for ridiculous nonsense, they can go fuck themselves to

    •  Interesting to note that the F.B.I. had one of the (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      TrueBlueMajority, YucatanMan

      brothers in their "cross hairs" for some time before the bombing, but never pursued a followup about him and his activities....  If they treat a suspect such this person with information from other sources indicating a potential dangerous threat to our society like this, it makes me wonder just who they are following and watching with serious interest....  

      ....Or not at all....?

      Way to many questions still unanswered; and maybe will never be.  

      “The comfort of the rich depends upon an abundant supply of the poor.” - Voltaire.

      by LamontCranston on Sun Apr 21, 2013 at 10:58:28 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  The thing that struck me (20+ / 0-)

    was the reports of 'hundreds of police cars' racing to the scene of the latest shootout. I know that it was exciting and everyone wanted to help, but I'm not sure that many cops was always a good thing.  I wondered if the bullets people reported coming through their living rooms were police or bad guy bullets. I thought it showed more than a little lack of organization.  And a complete lockdown?  I know the community supported it, but the guy would have been caught sooner if the homeowner had been in his backyard earlier in the day.  
    I know these guys had bombs but this did seem like an overreaction to me.  Made great theater though!

    Be bold. Be courageous. Americans are counting on you. Gabby Giffords.

    by Leftleaner on Sun Apr 21, 2013 at 12:42:37 AM PDT

    •  I'm just wondering what the reaction would (15+ / 0-)

      be if it was an organized terrorist campaign.

      We have had them here in Europe, the response has been more measured so far.

      "Another world is not only possible, she is on her way. On a quiet day, I can hear her breathing." Arundhati Roy

      by LaFeminista on Sun Apr 21, 2013 at 12:45:12 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Are you aware the brothers were in two different (17+ / 3-)

      vehicles and throwing bombs, pipe and pressure cooker, from them? The officers needed to deal with the escapee, the ordinance, and the wounded bomber. And has been noted, some of the media reporting was more than short of accurate.

      The perimeter set up and search is fairly well developed from military, criminal and terrorist situations. Indications were that Suspect 2 was moving for a good part of the day. He found his hiding spot just out of the perimeter, probably mid day.  

      I've done worker's comp case management, including lifetime costs of a simple leg prosthesis for a twenty something guy. Goes up astronomically for a child. Based on what the two had already done, not sure the cops would give much thought to letting residents out before they had some reasonable sense there would not be another attack, even by one terrorist.

      As it was, the kid was exhausted, and despite the homeowner being very stupid about looking inside the boat, it worked out. His son explained the guy saw the tarp disturbed, the strap with a clean cut, and blood. He supposedly thought it might be a varmint so looked inside. Frickin' lucky the kid had lost so much blood (may have tried to kill himself) and didn't blow him away. Stress does not help cognitive function.

      They have stressed there is a lot of investigative work to complete, more info will be dug up by the US DA, FBI and hopefully from the perp.

      Meanwhile. I am pissed as hell about the US DA. The bitch who prosecuted Aaron Swartz to commit suicide has a chance to come out of this with a no brainer success and aroma of rose.... I could blow something up myself.

      "People, even more than things, have to be restored, renewed, revived, reclaimed and redeemed; never throw out anyone. " Audrey Hepburn "A Beautiful Woman"

      by Ginny in CO on Sun Apr 21, 2013 at 04:20:46 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  If hundreds of police cars respomded (7+ / 0-)

      The fight was all over by the time they got there. That was handled exclusively by I think 6 Watertown Police, or cruisers.  The hundreds were then needed however to secure the neighborhood after one managed to escape.

      •  If they rushed in and actually had a role, (0+ / 0-)

        then that makes sense.  If they were just there because all this drama was unfolding, then not so much.  It's hard to imagine hundreds of cops having a valid role in this.  But then I've never been a cop, so what do I know.

        Be bold. Be courageous. Americans are counting on you. Gabby Giffords.

        by Leftleaner on Sun Apr 21, 2013 at 03:02:55 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  Fantasyland (15+ / 0-)
      but the guy would have been caught sooner if the homeowner had been in his backyard earlier in the day.
      Huh? The terrorist was armed and had slaughtered people just days before.
      What do you think would have happened if the homeowner had run into him BEFORE he got into the boat and bled out for hours? Maybe the murderer would have thrown down his gun and  given up?

      That's just fantasyland.

      •  We don't know what the guy would have (0+ / 0-)

        done differently, how weak he was earlier, so my speculation is as valid as yours.  And I'm not condemning anyone, just wondering.  I just think this seemed like a bit of an hysterical reaction to one guy--yes, one guy with bombs willing blow people up--on the loose in the city.  I am on the other side of the country and may have felt very different if I was close to the situation, but that's how it looked to me.

        Be bold. Be courageous. Americans are counting on you. Gabby Giffords.

        by Leftleaner on Sun Apr 21, 2013 at 03:00:33 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Just crazy talk again (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          I know the community supported it, but the guy would have been caught sooner if the homeowner had been in his backyard earlier in the day
          The above statement is not speculation by any stretch of the imagination.
          When you're called on it you lie by saying:
 my speculation is as valid as yours
          So, no, your statement is not valid - it's crazy.
          You're simply doing a passive/aggressive attack on what was an obviously VERY SUCCESSFUL operation.
          The sad thing is that people will associate your crazy talk with progressives and think that kind of crazy talk is is part of the progressive agenda.
          The truth is your crazy talk isn't left OR right leaning - it's just nuts.
          •  Cool down (0+ / 0-)
            passive/aggressive attack
            Right.  I make a gentle suggestion that there might not have been the need for the incredibly massive response and you call me crazy and suggest that my comment will be the basis of the right wing idiot talk that is spewed out 24-7.  I am not going to let them censor what I say, nor am I going to let you bully me into silence.
            Get a grip.

            Be bold. Be courageous. Americans are counting on you. Gabby Giffords.

            by Leftleaner on Sun Apr 21, 2013 at 08:27:22 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Classic passive/aggressive (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:

              You must have taken lessons from Peggy Noonan.
              First - you didn't make a suggestion. You said flat out:

              the guy would have been caught sooner if the homeowner had been in his backyard earlier in the day
              That's not a suggestion.
              Then you try to wriggle out by saying you were only speculating. That's a lie. That statement was not speculation.
              When called on it - specifically called on it - you label that as being bullied.
              That's classic passive/aggressive. It's also pretty sad.
              From there you launch into classic straw man B.S.
              suggest that my comment will be the basis of the right wing idiot talk that is spewed out 24-7.
              I never said that.
              The sad thing is that people will associate your crazy talk with progressives and think that kind of crazy talk is is part of the progressive agenda.
              Nothing in there about right wing idiot talk. I could care less what the fringe right thinks.
              No, the really damaging thing is that average folks will hear your scrambled crazy talk and associate it with the progressive movement.
              Nutty crazy talk like yours damages the progressive movement.
              That's the real world.
              I'm not surprised you call being exposed to reality and truth being bullied.
    •  You know nothing about what happened. That guy had (0+ / 0-)

      multiple bombs, other weapons, knew the area, you needed that many cops to set a perimeter, then check every house, shed, cellar, whatever. (yes, I know the stupid homeowner saw him, instead of calling the cops.0

      The "lockdown" was only in Watertown. Even then, it was, "stay in your house". I was grocery shopping at the other end of Boston, listening to local, repeat local news.  

      Lack of organization? Medford covered for Watertown everything but the bomber. Mutual aid from everywhere went into effect.

      Overreaction? Theater? Theather?

      You know fuck nothing about what happened.

      Commenters like you have me acting very angrily at the diaries and comments, wondering how many people have common sense, or the ability to reason step by step, or to determine reality from fantasy.

      Or recognize professionalism when they see it.

      How about going after the frigging media?

      2012-2016 President Obama, Vice President Biden, Senator Warren. For a LIFETIME, federal judges. Get the filibuster changed. Steamroll.

      by CuriousBoston on Mon Apr 22, 2013 at 04:01:42 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  You're not the only one, although (35+ / 0-)

    I'm not among those who agree, at least not at this point. You talk about patience, but wonder what lessons we have learned, after less than a week, as if this was all over. And is patience a virtue when there's the potential for the perpetrators to do more mayhem, and perhaps have more accomplices? Perhaps things could have been done better. That's almost always true. But from what I have seen so far, things were done very well.

    Gondwana has always been at war with Laurasia.

    by AaronInSanDiego on Sun Apr 21, 2013 at 12:50:12 AM PDT

    •  It was fast, but I am not sure if well done (15+ / 0-)

      is true.

      The media on the other hand deserve a big zero,

      "Another world is not only possible, she is on her way. On a quiet day, I can hear her breathing." Arundhati Roy

      by LaFeminista on Sun Apr 21, 2013 at 12:53:15 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  armchair monday morning quarterbacking is (42+ / 0-)

        ALWAYS so much better than those who have to make decisions in real time in real life based on limited information.

        it bothers me to NO end how many people are so busy second guessing what the professionals have done to bring this quickly to closure with as little loss of life as possible.

        coulda woulda shoulda doesn't mean sh*tta, imho.

        unless someone is on the front line doing the job OR one of those who are doing the after event "post mortem" for the departments involved, my advice is to stop speculating.

        it only makes those doing so look very foolish or very arrogant! (not directed at you, kathy s, rather toward all those who "think" they know better when they are making these statements about an event where they only have the tip of the iceberg when it comes to information on the situation - then and now.

        EdriesShop Is it kind? is it true? is it necessary?

        by edrie on Sun Apr 21, 2013 at 01:03:00 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Well, it is Monday morning n/t (4+ / 0-)

          Gondwana has always been at war with Laurasia.

          by AaronInSanDiego on Sun Apr 21, 2013 at 01:04:50 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  Actually it is asking important questions (14+ / 0-)

          It is not as if the response isn't trained for in the security services.

          The media on the other hand need some help.

          "Another world is not only possible, she is on her way. On a quiet day, I can hear her breathing." Arundhati Roy

          by LaFeminista on Sun Apr 21, 2013 at 01:05:51 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  To some extent, the media response is not (8+ / 0-)

            something that we can control. And there will always be some irresponsible outlets. What happened to the people who were wrongly identified as suspects is reprehensible. But it wasn't just the fault of the professional media outlets or the government agencies. There are some cultural problems at work here, that were here before the event and will continue.

            Gondwana has always been at war with Laurasia.

            by AaronInSanDiego on Sun Apr 21, 2013 at 01:12:52 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  The media needs to look at themselves (10+ / 0-)

              the 24hour news cycle is a vacuum that needs filling and this was a typical feeding frenzy to fill it with anything they could.

              I have read so much unadulterated speculation in the last few days it makes my head spin.

              Only time will tell, hopefully all parties review their responses.

              "Another world is not only possible, she is on her way. On a quiet day, I can hear her breathing." Arundhati Roy

              by LaFeminista on Sun Apr 21, 2013 at 01:25:52 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  For me, it will not matter if they review (4+ / 0-)

                their responses, or even admit error.

                Credibility for cable news has been lost. I never really relied on them to begin with, their behavior these last few days validates and makes permanent my avoidance of their "coverage."

                Somebody has to do something, and it's just incredibly pathetic that it has to be us.
                ~ Jerry Garcia

                by DeadHead on Sun Apr 21, 2013 at 01:51:58 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  cable lost it during the iraq war one. (0+ / 0-)

                  watched bush senior assure the iraqi soldiers that if the left kuwait, they would be given safe passage home.

                  those soldiers were forced into fighting by saddam's republican guard who waited at the border to slaughter anyone who tried to go back home.

                  at 3am, there was a live briefing with schwarzkoff - he was literally bouncing up and down - dancing with excitement and grins - stating that "when we realized they were leaving, we had to race very quickly to cut them off before they got back to the border..."

                  and we all know what happened when they did - 240,000 dead.  slaughtered like cornered rats - our new "sand" weaponry literally buried many of the iraqis in the sand.

                  as soon as the iraqis saw anyone foreign, they were giving up in droves - to reporters, to ANYONE.  they never wanted to fight - one "soldier" was an american who was visiting a relative and was conscripted into the army while wearing shorts and a hawiian shirt.  spoke fluent english since he was a friggin' american citizen!

                  so, when the "embeds" started, that's when journalism died.

                  peter arnett was the only REAL journalist during that time.

                  EdriesShop Is it kind? is it true? is it necessary?

                  by edrie on Sun Apr 21, 2013 at 11:36:02 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

              •  Case in point DKos (7+ / 0-)

                FPer's were running up to the minute tweets, updates etc.

                Why?  Site traffic....just like news - sites compete with each other.  

                Let's face it - news died many decades ago - it's more opinion and speculation now.  The pie is no longer CBS, ABC and NBC - it's been sliced into smaller pieces - add in the web and it's more fragmented.  if you're not 1st you're last.

                The care of human life and happiness, and not their destruction, is the first and only legitimate object of good government. - Thomas Jefferson

                by ctexrep on Sun Apr 21, 2013 at 05:08:21 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  I don't think what happened here was (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  indie17, greengemini

                  just to drive up site traffic. Regardless, what drives site traffic is that people were interested, curious, and concerned about what was happening. I know I was, and I think those who wrote those front page posts were as well.

                  Gondwana has always been at war with Laurasia.

                  by AaronInSanDiego on Sun Apr 21, 2013 at 09:22:29 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                •  nope. wrong there. there are some of us who have (0+ / 0-)

                  worked with news media - who follow breaking situations and are keenly interested in current events.

                  those of us who have been there, we are very cautious about "speculating" and call out those who do.

                  information is critical this day and age to alert people to unfolding events - from hurricanes, fires, blasts, or attacks like this one in boston... we had people on THIS site who lived nearby - and the information that was on this site and others helped keep them safe.

                  EdriesShop Is it kind? is it true? is it necessary?

                  by edrie on Sun Apr 21, 2013 at 11:39:20 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

              •  They need to... (0+ / 0-)

                but 5'll get you 10 they won't.

                Words can sometimes, in moments of grace, attain the quality of deeds. --Elie Wiesel

                by a gilas girl on Sun Apr 21, 2013 at 09:11:50 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

              •  regarding the media, i totally agree with you. (0+ / 0-)

                sadly, the reason the suspects were released to the public early was BECAUSE of the media misidentifying people who had nothing to do with the bombing - and, imho, putting those innocent people in harm's way.

                the fbi released the real photos to debunk the witch hunts going on by the news readers and bloggers on sites like reddit and facebook (and, yes, sadly, even here).

                EdriesShop Is it kind? is it true? is it necessary?

                by edrie on Sun Apr 21, 2013 at 11:30:53 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

            •  The media (21+ / 0-)

              was an epic failure. They copy and pasted from the internet in the hopes of breaking news instead of verifying sources or doing actual investigative work. WHen they got it wrong they then tried to place blame on the internet, but then went right back to doing the exact same thing again.  THis is what happens when the majority of the budget goes to sports and a crack investigative staff is now 2 internts on the internet looking for the stories with the most up-rates.

              The citizens doing the actual investigation work on the internet are just that, citizens. As individuals they did not have the power to place those pictures on the front page of the NY post, or MSM tv news. That was the rush for ratings.

              •   I'm curious how many who are asking these (5+ / 0-)

                questions are in the Boston area.

                Gondwana has always been at war with Laurasia.

                by AaronInSanDiego on Sun Apr 21, 2013 at 02:23:15 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  How many speculating (12+ / 0-)

                  on the decisions made in the fertilizer explosion are from the West, TX area? Doesn't make the questions they ask any less relevant.

                  Next time they could be shutting down Dallas. Last I checked Boston was in America. And in America I thought public discussion was good. No harm in asking questions. In fact, many other Democrats are doing it as well.


                  Former Sen. Jeff Bingaman (D-N.M.) said it is “hard to imagine what could justify directing the entire population of the city to ‘shelter in place.’”

                  Rep. Dutch Ruppersberger of Maryland, the top Democrat on the House Intelligence Committee, stopped short of directly criticizing the decision, but he lamented the development as a win of sorts for terrorists.

                  “When you have lives at stake, it’s up to law enforcement,” Ruppersberger said. “But it’s an accomplishment when someone shuts down an entire community and people can’t go outside and are told to stay away. We have to stand up as Americans to this. … We’ve got to continue to go to baseball games, continue to go to events. We can’t allow these people to shut us down.”

                  Michael Cohen, a former speechwriter for U.S. Ambassador to the United Nations Bill Richardson, said authorities reacted too strongly.

                  Read more:

                  •  Goddamnit, I hope you will take this post and make (0+ / 0-)

                    your own diary out of it.

                    All these suppsoed progressives chanelling their inner Ari "People better watch what they say" Fleischer bugs the living fuck out of me.

                    •  I don't see people channeling their... (8+ / 0-)

                      inner Ari F telling folks to watch out what they say.  I do see people...

                      a.  Questioning whether you can reasonably analyze the handling of the situation when it's unclear (at least it is to me) whether I have 5% of the story or 95% of the story (I'm leaning towards the former at the moment).

                      b.  Understanding that it's important to appreciate whether a reaction is due to the immediate noise or a directional shift.

                      c.  Appreciating that there's a strong situational component here and everyone is making realtime judgements during very fluid events.

                      d.  Understanding that sometimes you need to live in the event to appreciate the emotions, and sometimes you need to be removed from the event so that those emotions don't provide you with permission to do things you'll eventually regret.

                      •  OK, but I still think these questions deserve to (3+ / 0-)

                        be asked and debated in a healthy democracy. I don't think one has to live in the Boston Metro area to have an opinion over whether the display of force was excessive and that there were better ways to handle it.

                        There were FBI and ATF agents prominently strutting their stuff and my federal, i.e., non-Bostonian, tax dollars pay for their salaries. As such, I am entitled to a justification for their use and presence, as are all American taxpayers and citizens.

                        •  Uh, Boston did go back to work (14+ / 0-)

                          Boston did go back to work as normal the day after the bombing--indeed immiediatly after the bombing.  My daughter was back in school the day after the bombing literally three subway stops from the bombing.  Jeff Bingahman can fuck himself if he thinks that hot pursuit of an unknown number of bombers with an unknown number of bombs wasn't worth asking people to stay home for a day. We were not cowering and we were not shirking some kind of fantasy american duty to pretend nothing is going on. We were choosing to stay out of the way of law enforcement who were trying to capture a person wanted for a horrendous terrorist act.

                          Shift your kaleidescope a little bit and grasp that public safety is a little more complicated than your personal experience. Just because you imagine you paid for something qua taxpayer doesn't give you the right to insist on bostonians risking their lives to satisfy your (or binghamans) fantasies of gutsiness. You can't have it both ways: either there was no danger in which case it takes no courage to go out to work while the bullets are flying in Watertown or there was an unknown amount of danger of bombs and other bombers elsewhere in Boston and it was foolhardy to let the whole business day go forward without the shut down.

                          •  No, but my taxpayer dollars entitle me to ask (0+ / 0-)

                            whether they are being spent appropriately. Or, as this OP suggests, whether there might have been better ways for those same resources to be expended.

                            I'm not sure you intended the main substance of your reply to me. Or are you saying that U.S. citizens have no right to ask any questions about what went down?

                          •  Actually, it's not your taxpayer dollars..., (5+ / 0-)

                            it's your rights to free speech, which aren't dependent on you paying taxes.  Dragging taxes into this muddies the waters and tries to assert authority that doesn't exist.

                          •  If the questions have to do with (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:

                            how resources are allocated, then the tax issue is relevant.

                            Gondwana has always been at war with Laurasia.

                            by AaronInSanDiego on Sun Apr 21, 2013 at 08:46:56 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Yes, I certainly don't think that tax dollars (0+ / 0-)

                            by themselves convey a right to question government, except perhaps in a traditional rhetorical sense. Every citizen has a right, nay a duty, to question his or her government. The absence of questioning sows the ground for tyranny.

                          •  I find your comments to be (5+ / 0-)

                            spectacularly unedifying and ill informed. There's nothing wrong with asking questions and/or holding our politicians to account but you seem to not know anything about the situation in Boston and you way overvalue your rights as a "taxpayer." Your tiny tax mite didn't pay for more than a notional fraction of the FBI in my city and your personal disinterest in our bombing doesn't mean that the rest of us aren't satisfied with the way our tax dollars were spent.

                          •  recced for "tax mite" (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:

                            even if that was a typo.

                            Gondwana has always been at war with Laurasia.

                            by AaronInSanDiego on Sun Apr 21, 2013 at 09:24:26 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  No, tax "mite" was intentional (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            AaronInSanDiego, edrie

                            a reference to the "widow's mite" in the bible.

                          •   ah. I'm not familiar with that reference. n/t (0+ / 0-)

                            Gondwana has always been at war with Laurasia.

                            by AaronInSanDiego on Sun Apr 21, 2013 at 04:47:19 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  I likewise find your comments spectacularly (0+ / 0-)

                            devoid of specifics and built upon the flimsiest of logical edifices. The issue is not that portion of my tax dollar that funded FBI activities in Boston, nor is it that portion of my tax dollar that funds FBI activities nationally. Rather the issue is that my taxes fund public services of all types and, as such, I have every right to question how those tax dollars are allocated.

                            I'm not going to continue to argue this point with you, as your insulting language and presumptuous slurs say far more about you than me.

                          •  how is your "concern" different that those of (0+ / 0-)

                            the texans who didn't want THEIR "taxpayer dollars" going to pay for the damage done by hurricane sandy in new england?

                            once the dollars are in the pot - they are there for ALL of america to use as needed.. the next time, it may be your city in need... so to argue that those are "your" taxpayer dollars, you do so as an american - not as an individual.

                            shared costs means that no matter where the disaster/emergency/need arises, there is money to cover.

                            EdriesShop Is it kind? is it true? is it necessary?

                            by edrie on Sun Apr 21, 2013 at 11:45:37 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Agreed. Look, there seems to be a concerted (0+ / 0-)

                            effort to suppress debate and stifle discussion of how the government operates. Those who would stifle the debate seem to come from a position of "If the government does it, that means it was and is done ipso facto correctly" (so therefore questioning is to be quashed).

                            I come from a different tradition that says every citizen has an obligation to ask questions of his or her government, to demand accountability and transparency and to disagree when reason compels it.

                            The taxpayer - taxpayer dollar issue is a rhetorical red herring that I inadvertently, through a moment of intellectual slovenliness, introduced into an otherwise stimulating discussion. Somehow, I have not figured out how to back out of comments once they are posted here. That's probably just as well, as I actually deserve some of the rebukes and corrections my initial 'tax dollar - taxpayer' comment elicited.

                          •  can't delete comments once made - but this is a (0+ / 0-)

                            good start in clarifying what you meant.  i've done that a few times when i realized what i typed was not interpreted as i meant it.

                            every citizen does have the right to question how government works - what has bothered some of us here was the early on piling on when only a few facts were available.

                            post mortems are done after a situation is over and you have the facts to work from - going back and reviewing how to do it better benefits everyone - every agency.

                            i have no doubt that every law enforcement group involved in this will be taking it apart to see how they could have responded quicker, faster, better.

                            already, the software used to isolate the two suspects is based on face recognition - tracking - and one of the people working for the software company said the next step is to identify behavior that is consistent with the bombing or terror instant and flag it in realtime - i.e., seeing someone sureptitiously placing a bag and walking away - flag to go clear the area and check the package.

                            we have something similar now with the postal scanners for toxic substances like ricin and anthrax.  those are a good use of taxpayer dollars!

                            okay - on the way offline tonite - peace and see ya on the tube!

                            EdriesShop Is it kind? is it true? is it necessary?

                            by edrie on Mon Apr 22, 2013 at 12:14:07 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                        •  WRONG. N/T (0+ / 0-)

                          2012-2016 President Obama, Vice President Biden, Senator Warren. For a LIFETIME, federal judges. Get the filibuster changed. Steamroll.

                          by CuriousBoston on Sun Apr 21, 2013 at 10:56:59 AM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                    •  It's not my intent to (0+ / 0-)

                      try to shut people up.

                      Gondwana has always been at war with Laurasia.

                      by AaronInSanDiego on Sun Apr 21, 2013 at 08:23:05 AM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                  •  I just think we're not likely to get good answers (0+ / 0-)

                    right away.

                    Gondwana has always been at war with Laurasia.

                    by AaronInSanDiego on Sun Apr 21, 2013 at 08:19:20 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                •  A few (9+ / 0-)

                  Some folks were too busy with the "America Fuck Yeah" party on the Common, but others were wondering why the whole damn city had to be shut down for something happening up in Watertown.

                  Why shut down a rail service that doesn't even go to Watertown?  How the heck is a fella going to escape Watertown on the Orange Line train?

                  It's one thing to put a perimeter around the affected area, shut down traffic, and go house to house.  That improves safety for everybody.  But shutting down areas that were miles and miles away looked more like a municipal outbreak of pants-wetting.

                  Meanwhile, in other, police-starved parts of town (like mine), people were still getting shot and robbed.  On any given day of the week, someone may be getting shot in Boston.  Usually we are permitted to 'keep calm and carry on,' but not on Friday.  Friday was for hysteria.

                  •  In practice, the shut-down was voluntary (34+ / 0-)

                    Only Watertown had a don't-drive order, but nearly everyone stayed off the streets throughout the affected region. Why? Because we all wanted to deny the remaining suspect the ability to drive around undetected. We wanted to deny him the ability to hide in crowds. And remember, nobody had any idea how far he had gotten after the shoot-out.

                    As it turned out, the close-search perimeter was too small and the stay-home perimeter was too large. But cars can go a long way very quickly. Nobody knew how much was necessary. What people did know was that the pair of them were heavily armed, VERY dangerous, and most likely increasingly desperate.

                    Among my friends in the Boston area, I have not heard ONE COMPLAINT about the lockdown (I live outside the metro region but had business in the Boston area that day that got canceled). All I heard was relief that it's over & they caught him alive.

                    •  Well the closing of (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:

                      businesses and government offices certainly helped keep people at home.

                    •  Correct. I am in Cambridge (14+ / 0-)

                      I am in Cambridge and I think the shutdown of the city was an important gesture. It prevented the lowest level of workers from being required to come in, potentially at the risk of their lives, on a subway system that was at risk. The crack about the Orange Line is absurd. The police did not know whether bombs had been planted elsewhere in the city or how far the bombers might have had contacts and associates.  As I said upthread huge numbers of people would have been heading into the city that day, among them my daughter, while others would have been driving in and out of the surrounding towns. The possibility/liklihood of another mass death event among crowds was not insignificant.

                    •  Fair enough (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:

                      I know some folks who would have liked to go to work in Boston on Friday, including a doctor who relies on the T to get to work and took vacation days instead.  I imagine several hospitals were short-staffed, and surgeries were likely postponed.

                      I know that police were thin on the ground in non-Watertown areas, and a few unrelated shootings occurred without apprehensions of suspects.  But that might happen on any given day in Boston.

                      The shutdown didn't inconvenience my family terribly much, as we don't rely on the T for everything and never go to Watertown, and we continued with all our normal activities on Friday despite the hunker down request.  Most (but not all) of the businesses we use daily also ignored the order, kept calm, and carried on.  I heard criticism of the shutdown from their proprietors as well.

                      I suspect if you knew more people who actually live and work in the city of Boston, you would have heard some complaints.  I'm here in the city all day every day, and I am not the only one here who thought the breadth of the response was excessive.

                      •  I know plenty of people who live and work in the (0+ / 0-)

                        I know plenty of people who live and work in the city--in fact as i said my daughter would have been going in to BU.

                        •  Check parent (0+ / 0-)

                          I was replying to theMeans.

                          I agree that the 'shutdown' of your city, Cambridge, may have been appropriate, as police operations were ongoing there in response to direct threats.

                          I was talking about my city, Boston.  Parts of Boston that are eleven or twelve miles away from the actions in Watertown and Cambridge were also affected by the shutdown, in my opinion needlessly.

                          I feel fortunate that we do not have to rely on the services that were removed from so many others, and that the loss of a day of work doesn't result in financial hardship for us.  Others are not so fortunate.

                          •  Uh, Boston is my city, too. (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:

                            You just don't seem to grasp that a decision needed to be made for the entire city not because Watertown was under siege, which it was, but because they were not certain and could not be certain whether there were more bombs or bombers. You might also consider whether it was a decision made to keep the general background of requirements for policing low or because they needed to shut down government facilities and the subway because they thought they might need to protect subway workers or couldn't get people in from outlying districts reliably.  I'm sorry that you were inconvenienced and I am very sorry that low wage/hourly workers were inconvenienced. On the other hand if there had been more bombs in the city or on the subway everyone would have been screamign and crying about how foolish the police were for not managing the situation better. They did the best they could under the circumstances, anticipating the worst and preparing for the worst. I just don't understand the bizarre need to bitch and moan about it. Shutting down the city was not the worst decision a local government has ever made, it wasn't made capriciously, and although it had some negative ramifications they are not as significant as allowing people to congregate in a potential minefield would have been. In this life you pays your money and you takes your choice--I think the government made a reasonable choice and I see no reason to obsesses over it now.

                          •  I know people who live & work in the city... (0+ / 0-)

                            ...they were who I was talking about when i said I heard no complaints from "my friends in the Boston area."

                            I don't claim that it's a statistically valid sample -- just my observation. I also reply on some of them for the news that hardly anyone was on the streets, even in the zones where that was not requested.

                            As it turned out, the shutdown was needless. The second suspect apparently didn't even have a gun!  Though in the fog of the situation many things were not clear.

                            I know that it resulted in hardships among people whom I am not likely to hear from. I hope we have a more precise response if there is a next time. But I also think it's crossing the mind of the NEXT radicalized, alienated youth who is thinking of a grand gesture just how far Boston is willing to go to track them down.

                    •  I found the level of cooperation astonishing. (5+ / 0-)

                      The police made a plan and asked for cooperation and a whole area just listened and cooperated. I think it showed either a lot of fear or tremendous faith in law enforcement.

                      And it worked.

                      For most of us, it's not the end of the world if we stay home for a day.

                      I saw one of those photos with a message on it that I loved. I can't remember the photo, but the said something like, "Boston. You mess with us, and we will shut the city down, hunt you down and fuck you up."

                      And they did.

                      Confession time: When I'm not ranting about politics, I write romance novels

                      by teresahill on Sun Apr 21, 2013 at 10:05:34 AM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                  •  The "America Fuck Yeah" puzzles me. (8+ / 0-)

                    My memory is not what it used to be but did we have people do that after McVeigh was caught?  How does the "America Fuck Yeah" fit in when half of the suspects were American??  This may have had some religious angle and some foreign angle but in the end it was homegrown American terrorism.  

                  •  Thanks for the response. (0+ / 0-)

                    You're the first person I'm aware of from that general area that I've seen express that point of view.

                    Gondwana has always been at war with Laurasia.

                    by AaronInSanDiego on Sun Apr 21, 2013 at 08:25:49 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  There's plenty of us here (0+ / 0-)

                      I expect most of us don't want to express these things to outsiders - even if they're just from "across the river."  (If you're not from around here, Cambridge is not Boston).

                      Gun violence in the neighborhoods has been particularly heavy from Friday on.  Several murders, rolling gun battles, woundings. No great police concern, few arrests, no newspaper stories (although more Bostonians have been murdered outside the Marathon Bomber story than inside it in the past week).  It's just back to business as usual, with the advantage of the police being absent or tired.

                      Now some folks are suggesting a duck boat parade for the police.  Which of course would require more police on detail pay to oversee, and would remove more police from the neighborhoods where most Bostonians live and most day-to-day violence happens.  There's a cost.  There's always a cost.

            •  Yes the media could do a great deal better, I (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:

              thought Law Enforcement, for the most part, were professional and competent. The media was amateurish, treated it like a reality tv show, and were trying to stoke up fear and hysteria.  They were all just awful.

              Follow PA Keystone Liberals on Twitter: @KeystoneLibs

              by wishingwell on Sun Apr 21, 2013 at 07:13:29 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  "SOME" irresponsible outlets??? (3+ / 0-)

              I think we are hard pressed to find the responsible ones in this instance.

              The best and most responsible coverage was the Boston local coverage.  By far.

              The national media, all of it, was disgraceful. But as I noted in a comment somewhere, the private sector is less well atuned to the "what did we learn" process than the public sector seems to be.

              In the private sector, if you make money, nothing else matters.  And all of them made money on Friday.

              Words can sometimes, in moments of grace, attain the quality of deeds. --Elie Wiesel

              by a gilas girl on Sun Apr 21, 2013 at 09:11:09 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Have to disagree with your last paragraph. (0+ / 0-)

                Making money is not the only thing that matters in the private sector. Not sure about the rest.

                Gondwana has always been at war with Laurasia.

                by AaronInSanDiego on Sun Apr 21, 2013 at 09:28:40 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  In my experience (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Kentucky DeanDemocrat

                  working in the private sector it is.  That's one reason I no longer work there.

                  Words can sometimes, in moments of grace, attain the quality of deeds. --Elie Wiesel

                  by a gilas girl on Sun Apr 21, 2013 at 09:43:04 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Fair enough. (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    a gilas girl

                    I have a different experience. Although there is too much of that, it's not the only thing that matters in my perception. But maybe it's somewhat of a hybrid where I work, which is primarily a defense contractor.

                    Gondwana has always been at war with Laurasia.

                    by AaronInSanDiego on Sun Apr 21, 2013 at 09:53:02 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  I congratulate you (0+ / 0-)

                      (genuinely intended), when such workplaces can be found they should be appreciated.  I've heard tell they exist; though have yet to run into anyone who could actually provide accounts.

                      Most folks I know who work in the private sector, look forward to "retiring" from that once they've made enough money and then doing "meaningful work" like teaching when they don't have such great salary needs.

                      But I readily acknowledge that my own experience and my pool of acquaintances may be heavily skewed given where I live and what I have studied...I suspect the world looks different for folks in the sciences.

                      And life has made me far too cynical.


                      Words can sometimes, in moments of grace, attain the quality of deeds. --Elie Wiesel

                      by a gilas girl on Sun Apr 21, 2013 at 10:53:32 AM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  I don't want to overstate the point. (0+ / 0-)

                        It's far from perfect and it  especially has moved more in that direction in recent years.  But the company I work for was founded by scientists, and they were motivated by more than just money. There is more cynicism now though.

                        Gondwana has always been at war with Laurasia.

                        by AaronInSanDiego on Sun Apr 21, 2013 at 02:23:51 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

        •  Technically (6+ / 0-)

          the same could be said about any event. Like the BP oil spill. I mean who are we to question events, we are not doing the post-mortem report and was not out there skimming oil ourselves....

          The absolute best time for a public discussion of what happened, is directly after it happened and is still fresh in our minds.

          •  The best time (5+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            mimi, CuriousBoston, indie17, YucatanMan, edrie

            for public discussion is after the events are over; at the moment these aren't: all the facts aren't yet in, making reasonable public discussion and post-mortem impossible.

            without all the pertinent information (some of which has yet to be gathered) it's still just as speculative as some of the discussion that was going on during the events.

            Since the investigation is still going on, it's not yet "mortem", so the post-mortem is a bit premature.

            But yes, a public discussion of post-mortem events is a good thing, when the necessary info is available.

            Words can sometimes, in moments of grace, attain the quality of deeds. --Elie Wiesel

            by a gilas girl on Sun Apr 21, 2013 at 09:20:48 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  ...when the necessary info is available ... (4+ / 0-)

              ... it it will become available and factually correct ...which is something that should occur beyond a reasonable doubt.

              It's the doubt that people have, that is so dangerous, imo.

              •  I agree... (5+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                mimi, CuriousBoston, indie17, YucatanMan, edrie

                and I recognize that there is reasonable doubt about the transparency of the process, especially among folks at dkos, but it's equally irresponsible to start this process AS IF you have all the info when you know with a fair degree of certainty that you do not.

                Words can sometimes, in moments of grace, attain the quality of deeds. --Elie Wiesel

                by a gilas girl on Sun Apr 21, 2013 at 09:45:24 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  exactly, I got this, unfortunately (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  a gilas girl, edrie

                  rather irresponsible people, who have in mind to spread doubt, have an easy time to do so and have an impact on other people, who can't verify the facts and are prone to be suspicious for reasons other than rational ones.  It's then that I regret something like facebook exists, where any of the so-called friends, you don't even know you had, can bombard your site with "suggestive speculations about what has happened". I hate facebook and wished it would die a deserved death.

                  I wondered about our own (publicly financed TV broadcasts to Germany) during the last days. It's amazing that we were asked to deliver up to 10 segments and stories live or narrated video pieces a day. One person in Texas, one in Boston, one holding the studio running in DC. That's crazy. All you do is shaking your head that they actually manage it at all without major glitches. I have no idea why they also must "do the news" every hour over there in Germany.

                  The world must go under if we don't have the news within some minutes of them happening. Crazy.

                  I haven't worked here during 9/11, but from what we have in the archives of those days, I can reconstruct that the studio collapsed in chaos and was dysfunctional.
                  Must have been awful. It was more luck than brain and professionalism that they generated good coverage back then nevertheless.

        •  People want to know how and why (12+ / 0-)

          things happened the way they did. It's not every day you have what amounts to a domestic military operation that puts an entire city on lockdown over one dude.

          There's some shit about this ordeal that, as time goes on, is raising questions in people's minds.

          That doesn't mean they're entertaining conspiracies or trying to tell LE how they should have more effectively achieved their goal of catching the guy.

          Somebody has to do something, and it's just incredibly pathetic that it has to be us.
          ~ Jerry Garcia

          by DeadHead on Sun Apr 21, 2013 at 01:39:30 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  When do you think it's appropriate to question (5+ / 0-)

          the behavior of law enforcement?

          "He, O men, is the wisest, who, like Socrates, knows that his wisdom is in truth worth nothing."--Socrates

          by TealTerror on Sun Apr 21, 2013 at 05:25:11 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  Yes, one thing that I am super impressed with is (10+ / 0-)

        the ability of a police negotiator to tak this kid out of that boat and take him alive.  That amazed me , that was so professionally and well done.  They said it took a long time and a great deal of patience but they were able to talk him out of that boat.

        Follow PA Keystone Liberals on Twitter: @KeystoneLibs

        by wishingwell on Sun Apr 21, 2013 at 07:06:36 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  "...always true" (0+ / 0-)

      and why they conduct After Action Reviews. Always.

      "Show up. Pay attention. Tell the truth. And don't be attached to the results." -- Angeles Arrien

      by Sybil Liberty on Sun Apr 21, 2013 at 07:07:46 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  It is what it is. When the adrenaline starts (9+ / 0-)

    flowing it is hard to contain.
    Perhaps some people are conditioned to rush towards a scene of confusion. My inclination is to stay out of the way. The shelter-in-place was designed to separate the compliant from the non-compliant. Trimmed the population that had to be dealt with, so to speak. Made it more manageable. They knew he couldn't have gotten far on foot and would be discovered as soon as everyone started looking. Having been shut up inside gave everyone a new perspective on their surroundings. The anomalous became more obvious.

    What we seem to have here is a family of opportunists. The father went back home, but the mother reportedly was arrested last year for shoplifting from Lord and Taylor's. Tamerlane is/was married and has a child. It's not unusual for immigrants to marry natives to solidify their status. Apparently, grifters show up in all populations. The U.S. is particularly vulnerable because people are generous and make all kinds of allowances for nice looking people with accents. Remember that fellow who passed himself off as a Rockefeller?
    Conmen. They're not all male and they're not all in the political arena.

    We organize governments to deliver services and prevent abuse.

    by hannah on Sun Apr 21, 2013 at 12:54:44 AM PDT

    •  I expect better of trained professionals (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      DeadHead, RandomGuyFromGermany, caul

      Armies used to bayonet charge machine guns and cavalry charge tanks, they changed their tactics eventually.

      "Another world is not only possible, she is on her way. On a quiet day, I can hear her breathing." Arundhati Roy

      by LaFeminista on Sun Apr 21, 2013 at 12:57:32 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Excellent observations. As the media struggles (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      caul, timewarp

      with the question of "What caused two seemingly well-adjusted young men to go bad?" I think your hypothesis deserves some careful scrutiny.

      Watching the Uncle throw his brother and two nephews under the bus, I was struck by the feeling that this was a family of exploiters, when they couldn't exploit others, they exploited one another. To wit, specifically, I got this vibe that the Uncle and his brother (the Tsarnaev brothers' father) were hoping to enrich themselves off Tamarlan's boxing success. Nothing specific I can point to, but both my wife and I picked up that vibe.

      If I had to sum up the family dynamic, it was an absence of 'love.' But this hypothesis is quite tentative on my part. And your 'grifters' thesis is equally intriguing to me.

  •  The press was (8+ / 0-)

    an absolute joke. And then they want to blame their laziness of copy/pasting their stories from the internet on Redditt.

    Also I wonder if some nutcase sets off a pipebomb in Los Angeles, would they really shut the entire city down? They certainly did not do it for Dornier. I truly believe it was a massive victory for fear and terrorism.

  •  Two Points..... (29+ / 0-)

    #1.....If you're smart, you will never kill a cop.  The other
              cops no likey.

    #2.....The folks in Watertown lined the streets, cheered,
              clapped & looked pretty darned relieved when the
              police cars, ambulances, EMTs & Feds did a slow
              promenade out of town after they got suspect #2.

    Maybe you had to be there.  Maybe you had to hear the rounds going off, feel that particular terror when the guy
    who was suspected of bombing the Boston Marathon was
    in your neighborhood.  Maybe he was next door or maybe he was  hiding out in your boat parked in the driveway next to your house.

    Sometimes proximity is everything.  

    •  I not questioning the reactions nor the (12+ / 0-)

      immense sense of relief, my family lives in NE some in the Boston metro area.

      What I am asking was the response appropriate, and were many in the media behaving responsibly.

      "Another world is not only possible, she is on her way. On a quiet day, I can hear her breathing." Arundhati Roy

      by LaFeminista on Sun Apr 21, 2013 at 01:32:06 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  CNN Made Absolute Fools Of Themselves.... (17+ / 0-)

        A FOX affiliate in Texas fingered the actress Zoey Deschanel as the bomber.  Brian Williams of NBC did a pretty good job of verifiable measured reporting.

        The police in Boston that day immediately ran to the victims & performed above & beyond anything one
        could expect.  The suspects threw grenades out of the car
        during the police pursuit after they had killed the first officer & kidnapped & hijacked another individual.  Not exactly your one strike terrorist.

        No one knew where the next pressure cooker bomb was coming from.  It was a new day, a long & horrible night  after days of abject terror for everyone in Boston.  

        •  I still think the reaction needs to be reviewed (10+ / 0-)

          I can understand why the reaction I am asking if it could be handled better in the future without shutting down a major city.

          The FBI that released the photographs of the suspects might have checked their own files before releasing them because all indications are one of the suspects was already on file.

          What is done is done, perhaps something can be learnt from how it was done?

          "Another world is not only possible, she is on her way. On a quiet day, I can hear her breathing." Arundhati Roy

          by LaFeminista on Sun Apr 21, 2013 at 01:50:13 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Of Course, Lessons Can Always Be Learned (7+ / 0-)

            I suspect the intent was to smoke the suspects out, throw them off balance & encourage all the attendees at the Marathon to re-examine their own cell photos that day.

            That's exactly what happened.  Those in attendance had inadvertently captured better pictures placing the two suspects @ the scene mingling & watching, then calmly leaving in the midst of everyone else running in terror.  

            The photos on file didn't place them @ the scene.  The cell photos taken that day established their association, their proximity to the bomb sites & their calm, laissez faire attitude in the midst of horror.  

          •  I was wondering why they released the photos (4+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            big annie, TealTerror, srkp23, caul

            so early.

            Prior to their release, the guys were hiding in plain sight, getting on with their lives, and trying to avoid attention.

            Whenn their photos were released, they went on the run, resulting in a dead and injured cop.

            Once they had photos of these guys, I am surprised they didn't use facebook face recognition technology to narrow the list of suspects. After all, these days, people in late teens early 20's without a facebook page are already suspicious.

            •  My thought would be to send the photos (5+ / 0-)

              to every school and University in the Boston area. Perhaps someone could identify the suspects from their photo database. But who knows, perhaps they did do this and came up with no results.

              The more time that passed, the farther away these men could have been, so I think the FBI did the thing in releasing the images sooner than later.

              I do wonder what precedent has been set as to shutting down an American city in an 'emergency.' I suspect we'll see more of this.

              •  One thing I think we learned from this is that (6+ / 0-)

                if they published the photographs to anyone, including schools or universities they would most likely find their way into the public domain via the internet or news.  The news pays for things like that.  And if not the photographs then inaccurate descriptions of what people thought they saw on the photographs.  If they are going to put the photographs into the public domain I think they have to do it the way they did.  Otherwise the speculation and erroneous assumptions would be worse.

                "Speak the TRUTH, even if your voice shakes."

                by stellaluna on Sun Apr 21, 2013 at 07:01:00 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  I'm not so sure (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  caul, stellaluna

                  I worked in the IT department of a public university and know a little about internal and external investigations.

                  Whoever would have leaked these photos would have lost their jobs. These people wouldn't have been department secretaries, but high-level administrators. Only authorized persons have access to certain information and the IT department knows when and who is logged in and accessing confidential data.

                  I'm certain that whoever would have had access to these photos was well aware of the repercussions of down downloading and distributing these photos.

              •  But I still think the photos would have leaked (3+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                yella dawg, big annie, timewarp

                had the FBI decided to send them to every college in the Boston area.  I have  a feeling those photos still would have leaked out.  ..just a hunch. It seems the media manages to get hold these things one way or the other. I guess the FBI maybe wanted to smoke out these guys or truly did not know their identities and wanted their neighbors or friends to call.  Remember the Una Bomber's brother say the sketch and turned in his own brother. FBI probably thought that would happen here before the suspects went on a rampage.

                Follow PA Keystone Liberals on Twitter: @KeystoneLibs

                by wishingwell on Sun Apr 21, 2013 at 07:23:53 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  School FBI investigations aren't new (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:

                  This wouldn't have been the first time the FBI requested confidential information on a student, faculty member, or employee.

                  After 911, a host of new regulations were enacted regarding record keeping on domestic and international students, reporting immigration status, etc. If the FBI requests information, schools comply.

            •  WHY DIDN'T THE FBI HAVE PHOTOS OF THEM? (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:

              They not only interviewed him, but his family as well, multiple times according to mom.

              I really don't understand this. OK, maybe it was overlooked initially, but once they had the interview with the legless victim in hospital, why DID NOT the brothers go to the top of the list? why did the public have to identify them?

            •  What the WaPo says (13+ / 0-)

              Great tick-tock:

              Law enforcement officials debated whether to release the photos, weighing the risk of the suspects fleeing or staging another attack against the prospect of quicker identification. Officials said they went ahead with the public appeal for three reasons:

              Investigators didn’t want to risk having news outlets put out the Tsarnaevs’ images first, which might have made them the object of a wave of popular sympathy for wrongly suspected people, as had happened with two high school runners from the Boston area whose photos were published on the front page of the New York Post under the headline “Bag Men.” At the news conference, FBI Special Agent in Charge Richard DesLauriers sternly asked the public to view only its pictures or risk creating “undue work for vital law enforcement resources.”

              ●During a briefing Thursday afternoon, President Obama was shown the photos of the suspects by senior members of his national security team. Senior administration officials said that although Obama was not asked to approve release of the images by the FBI, the president offered a word of caution after viewing them. Be certain that these are the right suspects before you put the pictures out there, he advised his national security team, according to the administration officials.

              Investigators were concerned that if they didn’t assert control over the release of the Tsarnaevs’ photos, their manhunt would become a chaotic free-for-all, with news media cars and helicopters, as well as online vigilante detectives, competing with police in the chase to find the suspects. By stressing that all information had to flow to 911 and official investigators, the FBI hoped to cut off that freelance sleuthing and attend to public safety even as they searched for the brothers.

            •  I believe it has been noted in several places (6+ / 0-)

              that their hands were somewhat forced by all the reckless speculation about the wrong people that was going on both in the press and on social media.

              When the NYPost published photos of a young kid who wasn't the suspect on the cover or all the speculation about the missing Brown University student got out of hand, that's when they needed to get more photos on the folks they had as the more likely suspects.

              Words can sometimes, in moments of grace, attain the quality of deeds. --Elie Wiesel

              by a gilas girl on Sun Apr 21, 2013 at 09:41:37 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  Perhaps "the internet" (3+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              CuriousBoston, indie17, YucatanMan

              was already speculating about them (as with the Moroccan guys on Reddit)?  We don't know how many photos of them were already out there.

              Also, if the FBI had already positively ID'd them, presumably they were already interviewing friends and family and it was only a matter of a short time before THAT leaked.

              IF either of those possibilities were at play, then it would seem that it would be an attempt by the police to control the story somewhat -- or simply PR, to reassure the public that they were on top of it before the identities of the bombers  came out via the tabloids

          •  This is not a tv show (15+ / 0-)

            this is reality. In reality, there is no computer database with photographs of every person the FBI has ever interviewed that can be instantly matched with grainy photographs from a surveillance camera.

            Come on.

          •  FBI (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:

            the FBI wanted the marathon going public's help in getting better pictures of bombers.  CNN and other places "reported" by Tuesday that they were looking for a white cap -- who would have thought they were still in Boston?  OTOH better pictures (and even people who knew them did not recognize them from the first pictures) could help to locate them in all kinds of ways including facial recognition software.  And contrary to what we all might have believed just being checked out by the FBI does not seem to put you in a database.

          •  Here's the flaw in your perspective: (4+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            timewarp, mimi, CuriousBoston, Nowhere Man

            you've made this a singular.

            It's not "THE" reaction.

            Your question has (at least) two major parts:

            1. The reaction of the Law Enforcement Organizations

            2. The reaction of the press

            To those two above, I'd add a third:

            3. The reaction of the public
                a.  Local public directly impacted
                b.  Larger public

            Then your question and your assertions make sense.  

            Lumping it into one large "the" reaction, serves little practice purpose, but it does provide a good platform from which folks who want to inflame belligerence and incite trolling to do so.  

            So there's a way to do what you seem to be saying is needed.  If your request for that is genuine and in good faith, I agree with you and would suggest a bit more careful thinking about and framing of/expressing the concern, because that's more apt to bring productive results.

            Words can sometimes, in moments of grace, attain the quality of deeds. --Elie Wiesel

            by a gilas girl on Sun Apr 21, 2013 at 09:37:10 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  I think you shouldn't forget the reactions (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              a gilas girl

              on the internet ... which I think have a huge impact...and one can discuss of those as being part of a "press". They seem to often come close to it. I think the coverage on twitter, facebook and blogs has more impact than the coverage on the MSM TV media, or what do you think?

              •  I was thinking of the internet (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                mimi, Nowhere Man

                as "the public" rather than the press, as in "Larger public", but you're correct that where to place the internet in this three tiered structure is tricky.

                Words can sometimes, in moments of grace, attain the quality of deeds. --Elie Wiesel

                by a gilas girl on Sun Apr 21, 2013 at 10:56:53 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

          •  I don't understand why shutting down a major city (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            pgm 01, Caipirinha, Nowhere Man

            for a day or two is such a bad thing!  We do it for storms.  NYC has been completely shut down 3 times in the last 3 years -- unprecedented it seemed at first, but now we are getting used to the idea that it is the prudent thing to do. A lot of money WAS lost -- I suffered personal financial hardship during the Sandy shutdown but I would rather suffer that than to know that even more people died just to keep the subways and buses running etc.  

            I am simply happy that after the marathon, no others were caught up in a crossfire situation (as happened here in NYC last summer:  

            However, the media was a catastrophe.  As are politicians who are already looking for a way to make political hay out of this.  

          •  They reviewed the photos against (0+ / 0-)

            millions of ones on file, including mug shots, passports, drivers licenses, you name it.

            All that in just a day or so.  Using face recognition software, as it is not possible to get human eyes on so many pix so quickly.

            Unfortunately, this review came up empty.

            They needed the public's help finding the brothers.  That is why they released the images.

            "Who the hell is Grover Norquist, anyway?" - George H.W. Bush

            by rsmpdx on Sun Apr 21, 2013 at 10:35:19 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

        •  Zoey Deschanel (4+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Magenta, TealTerror, Paddy999, pgm 01

          I don't think that the Fox affiliate intentionally suggested that Zoey Deschanel may have been the bomber, so "fingered" may not be quite the right word. It seems to be one of the famous Fox/Fox affiliate cases of botched closed captioning. In the cases of attaching "(D)" to the names of GOP pols involved in scandals, I'm pretty sure it's intentional. In the case of Zoey Deschanel, I think it's more likely to be a legitimate (if indicative of egregiously sloppy editorial work) mistake.

          Thanks to denial, I'm immortal. -- Philip J. Fry

          by IamGumby on Sun Apr 21, 2013 at 05:11:54 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Yes. (0+ / 0-)

            That one was just sort of funny. It didn't hurt anyone. The wrong reporting was a problem. Accidentally naming Zooey Deschanel was just a stupid mistake made by a tired person.


            by Magenta on Sun Apr 21, 2013 at 05:30:28 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  I don't think a person was involved at all. (3+ / 0-)

              Closed Captioning can be done on the fly using specially designed speech to text programs.  My guess is the program "heard" the name of the suspect and it used the name it new that was closest to what it "heard".

              •  I Think You're Right (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                pgm 01

                I was recently watching a British series on Netflix. The closed captioning didn't know what to make of "The Chiltern Hundreds," and just posted [Indecipherable]. It was probably either closed captioning for an American audience by an American captioner, or it was a machine, or it was both.

                And yeah, the Zoey Deschanel error was just about the only thing in the last week that made me laugh.

                Thanks to denial, I'm immortal. -- Philip J. Fry

                by IamGumby on Sun Apr 21, 2013 at 02:03:31 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

        •  "Abject terror" is a bit of (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:

          hyperbole in this instance, after the original bombings. Following which I didn't see that much "abject terror" - I saw people rushing in to help.

          Nor do I figure there was that much "abject terror" in Watertown or elsewhere in Boston during the lockdown. People were most likely thankful to have had the warning that shootouts might be imminent and sensibly didn't care to be in the line of fire.

          It could not have gone on much longer. Luckily it didn't have to. But it all has to be weighed against the fact that there are desperate and dangerous killers on the loose in most cities any hour of the day or night. People somehow manage to go about their business anyway, you can't just lockdown whole big cities and swaths of the countryside because one bad guy is still loose.

          I expect the conversation to go on for quite awhile.

          •  Abject terror? Somebody needs a reality check. (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:

            Come and visit.

            2012-2016 President Obama, Vice President Biden, Senator Warren. For a LIFETIME, federal judges. Get the filibuster changed. Steamroll.

            by CuriousBoston on Sun Apr 21, 2013 at 11:13:50 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Boston is my absolutely favorite (0+ / 0-)

              city in the megalopolis corridor. Spend any time there at all, and the next thing you know it feels just like 'home'. One of the niftiest aspects (in my limited experience) are those bars on every corner where "everybody knows your name" - or not, it doesn't matter. There's always some colorful politics going on, everybody's got an opinion and they're not shy of expressing 'em!

              I love Boston. Need to buy the tee shirt...

              •  Or a Red Sox cap. Come and run for mayor, i've (0+ / 0-)

                lost count of the candidates.

                2012-2016 President Obama, Vice President Biden, Senator Warren. For a LIFETIME, federal judges. Get the filibuster changed. Steamroll.

                by CuriousBoston on Mon Apr 22, 2013 at 03:05:33 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

      •  The media? Responsible? Surely you jest (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Sue B, yella dawg, mndan

        On the other hand, I think law enforcement handled this superbly.

        The reason they went public with the pictures of the suspects is that they did not have ID's for them, and they had no way to locate them quickly. The longer it took to ID these guys, the more it became likely that they could escape the area.

        Yes, it was a risk, but a calculated one. And I would say well worth it.

      •  Kudos to you for so questioning. It speaks to (0+ / 0-)

        the health of our democracy and freedoms. Keep it up!

      •  I understand the post mortem (0+ / 0-)

        questioning. But at this point I'm not sure the 'wrong things' were done. Sure, the lockdown of a million people and an entire greater metro area went on too long, but once it was in place how easy or well-advised would it have been to simply lift it at daybreak? That's going to cost a whole lot (feds or Boston or both), but it certainly worked well to keep civilians out of the line of fire.

        How "terrorized" the public actually was by the shelter in place order is highly debatable. If I lived in Watertown and had kids, I would have been doing my own version of lockdown until either the bombers were caught or were known to be well clear of my neighborhood. I do not think they could reasonably have extended it over a period of days, so it's a good thing they didn't try.

        As for the media, of course 'everybody' wanted to know whatever was going on. As they were closing in it was good for the public to be able to keep on top of it, and to get officials making announcements in real time. The more far-flung speculation was sensationalistic (and dangerous for some), but that's how those type of press sources work in this country.

        It's right to ask questions, and it will be right to get them answered. Officials need to do their own honest post mortem and develop some contingency plans for any such/similar situations that may arise in the future. We'll all be paying attention, for sure.

      •  I think in this instance (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:

        you really have to separate the response of the authorities from the response of the media when you ask this question.

        For one thing, they aren't part of the same monolith, no matter how much it may appear they are from the outside.

        For another, the answers to the question will be very different once you do that separation.

        Words can sometimes, in moments of grace, attain the quality of deeds. --Elie Wiesel

        by a gilas girl on Sun Apr 21, 2013 at 09:31:12 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  Absolutely agree... (8+ / 0-)

    I have repeated this same concern now in a few different comments:

    Why did the FBI solicit the public's help in identifying the suspects when they had knowledge of one or both of them prior to this incident? Surely they have the technology that would have enabled them to ID these guys without the public's interference.

    Allowing the public/news to become collective armchair sleuths ended up in the inevitable: misidentification of innocent people.

    It makes no sense.  

    Somebody has to do something, and it's just incredibly pathetic that it has to be us.
    ~ Jerry Garcia

    by DeadHead on Sun Apr 21, 2013 at 01:31:36 AM PDT

    •  That is one of the worring details coming out (6+ / 0-)

      of this.

      "Another world is not only possible, she is on her way. On a quiet day, I can hear her breathing." Arundhati Roy

      by LaFeminista on Sun Apr 21, 2013 at 01:33:22 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  The fact that they had some knowledge (8+ / 0-)

      doesn't mean they had knowledge they would commit this incident. How would they have any idea those particular people, among the thousands they have knowledge of, would be the suspects in this case? And yes, they have technology, but there were many potential images to sort through, and the public's input sped up that process.

      Gondwana has always been at war with Laurasia.

      by AaronInSanDiego on Sun Apr 21, 2013 at 01:36:15 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Running the photos of the suspects against (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        DeadHead, TealTerror, srkp23

        those on file would not have taken much time.

        They published the photos to the world, surely they opened their case files for the local area?

        "Another world is not only possible, she is on her way. On a quiet day, I can hear her breathing." Arundhati Roy

        by LaFeminista on Sun Apr 21, 2013 at 01:43:46 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •   What makes you day it wouldn't have (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:

          taken much time? As it happened it only took about a day or less, once the correct photos were determined, didn't it?

          Gondwana has always been at war with Laurasia.

          by AaronInSanDiego on Sun Apr 21, 2013 at 01:54:27 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Not only the innocent watch TV (4+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            DeadHead, TealTerror, wishingwell, caul

            Fore warned is fore armed

            They could have just circulated photos to the thousands of police involved rather than broadcasting them.

            Just a thought.

            "Another world is not only possible, she is on her way. On a quiet day, I can hear her breathing." Arundhati Roy

            by LaFeminista on Sun Apr 21, 2013 at 01:57:26 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Exactly. Instead we got a shitstorm (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              TealTerror, caul

              of misery directed at the wrong people and the inevitable Islamophobes being activated ahead of schedule.

              Somebody has to do something, and it's just incredibly pathetic that it has to be us.
              ~ Jerry Garcia

              by DeadHead on Sun Apr 21, 2013 at 02:04:27 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •   well, i think we may be talking about (8+ / 0-)

              different things. Circulating the photos among police wouldn't have  helped to identify them, and i expect  photos were given to police in any case.

              Gondwana has always been at war with Laurasia.

              by AaronInSanDiego on Sun Apr 21, 2013 at 02:13:43 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  And this assumes that by circulating the (3+ / 0-)

                photographs to law enforcement they would stay confidential.  The same type of law enforcement officers who took a picture of the older bomber after he was dead and posted it on the internet.  I think if the photographs are going to be circulated it's pretty much an all or nothing proposition.  Otherwise we end up with more speculation and erroneous behavior.

                "Speak the TRUTH, even if your voice shakes."

                by stellaluna on Sun Apr 21, 2013 at 07:04:41 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

              •  Yes I am thinking all local law enforcement were (3+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                indie17, CuriousBoston, Caipirinha

                shown these photos hours before the public saw them. I am thinking local and state law enforcement could not identify them. But the FBI apparently was right about one thing, lots of people called them about who these guys were. As it seemed both had a lot of friends, neighbors, coaches, teachers who knew them well, especially younger brother. It seems Younger Brother was popular. Some girl was on TV saying she had a crush on him back in high school and then she kinda shivered thinking about what she might have avoided.  It seems she wanted to date him and now realizes maybe it is good he was not as interested in her.

                So it turns out FBI realizing photos did stir up the terrorists to go on a rampage but wow, these guys were not loners, one was captain of his high school wrestling team and popular and other was the NE heavy weight champ 2 yrs they knew a helluva lot of people.  

                If they were loner types or recluse types, I think it would have been like other cases, they would have been able to hide out longer but these two were going to college classes and even seen partying in the dorms that week...after the bombing once the pics were released, the guys did panic.

                Follow PA Keystone Liberals on Twitter: @KeystoneLibs

                by wishingwell on Sun Apr 21, 2013 at 07:29:38 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

            •  OTOH - Criminals on the run don't have much TV (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:


            •  They had released them to le agencies (0+ / 0-)

              before going on tv was what I saw reported.

            •  It was a store video, an interview, and public (0+ / 0-)

              photos at various angles and times that identified the brothers.

              You weren't there. You have zip experience. Please stop armchair speculating. Wait for the results. Be fore warned, the public won't get everything, some changes must be kept private for security reasons.

              2012-2016 President Obama, Vice President Biden, Senator Warren. For a LIFETIME, federal judges. Get the filibuster changed. Steamroll.

              by CuriousBoston on Sun Apr 21, 2013 at 11:19:26 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  They still would have ended up (0+ / 0-)

              on the Internet, for all to see.

              Case in point; the autopsy photo of the elder brother than was distributed to law enforcement.

              It ended up on Twitter.

        •  Do you have reason to believe that they didn't (0+ / 0-)

          check against information on file?

          My understanding is that they did a massive search against ever photo they could lay their (digital) hands on.

          "Who the hell is Grover Norquist, anyway?" - George H.W. Bush

          by rsmpdx on Sun Apr 21, 2013 at 10:45:29 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  because normally (4+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        DeadHead, TealTerror, kkjohnson, caul

        they have their photograph in a 'suspcious persons' file somewhere after talking to him in 2011, and then use facial recognition software for comparison. I mean we are talking cuts to social security because of the mass spending after 9/11. Why not at least put some of it to use....

        Next Generation Identification", a massive database with biometric identifiers on millions of Americans. When completed, the NGI system will be the largest biometric database in the world." NGI aggregates fingerprints, DNA profiles, iris scans, palm prints, voice identification profiles, photographs, and other identifying information. The FBI will use facial recognition to match images in the database against facial images obtained from CCTV and elsewhere.
        •   I'm sure that was done. n/t (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          LieparDestin, stellaluna

          Gondwana has always been at war with Laurasia.

          by AaronInSanDiego on Sun Apr 21, 2013 at 01:55:46 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Facial recognition was tried, and only when it (0+ / 0-)

            failed, did the cops release the pictures for public help.

            This isn't the police's first time attempting to identify suspects in a crime from a photo, or a drawing, or whatever.

            That's not even "gun control". It's more like "massacre control".

            by Inland on Sun Apr 21, 2013 at 08:25:00 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

        •   actually, I'll back up a bit. (7+ / 0-)

           I'm confident that  whatever technical resources they had available that could help them were used.

          Gondwana has always been at war with Laurasia.

          by AaronInSanDiego on Sun Apr 21, 2013 at 02:07:44 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Im sure youre right (4+ / 0-)

            makes you feel good about all the $ spent right?

            I still dont think shutting down a major city is the right backup plan though. I think if it has been done during a Bush presidency this site would be in a totally different mood.  

            Dont get me wrong Im glad it worked in this case I just think this is a perfect time to discuss if this is the new precedent.

            •  Zing! You nailed it. If the Shelter in Place (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:

              had gone down during the Bush Junta, this site (and a couple others I frequent) would have been in full melt-down mode.

              And I'm not sure it 'worked'. One can argue that the release of the photos to the general public led to the death of the MIT officer and the near-fatal attack on the MBTA officer. Oh sure, releasing the photos had the (as far as we know) unintended effect of flushing out the suspects. But one is rightly entitled to ask whether deputizing an entire metropolitan area is the best way to handle investigative work.

              •  Why keep insisting on this weird notion? (9+ / 0-)

                1) Who cares if people at a different time would have been upset with a different administration?
                2) This incident happened, now. The MA governor didn't receive orders from the Obama administration to shut the city down so what relevance to National politics does this have?
                3) To the extent that you fear a repeat of the jingoism/anti muslim Bush years it should be obvious that Obama and Patrick and the Police and FBI were INCREDIBLY cautious about fingering any particular ethnic/religious/national group.
                4) The FBI did not "deputize an entire metropolitan area" in any sense of the word and worked hard--in fact the shut down was meant to prevent--vigilante like behavior. If you were reading this thread you'd know that the reason they released the pictures at all was in response to a) false identifications of innocent persons and b) because they didn't know who these guys were and they were on the lam. This is quite common in a number of cases including amber alerts and most wanted situations. It has nothing to do with the war on terror or new police powers.

                •  So asking the public's help in ID'ing the suspects (0+ / 0-)

                  from photos is not 'deputizing an entire metropolitan area' in any sense of the word? In ANY SENSE of the word?

                  You might want to check your dictionary for the definition of 'deputize'. Or not.

                  •  You might want to check your dictionary (4+ / 0-)

                    To deputize is to authorize, specifically to authorize a person to act as a deputy to perform an official legal or political duty.  The police did not authorize the public to do anything more than offer them tips--they specifically requested that the suspects never be approached and that there be no vigilante style justice or public identification of the suspects (as in the newspapers or on social media.)

                    •  Your definition is correct insofar as the literal (0+ / 0-)

                      use of the word is concerned (and provided one agrees to overlook your tautology therein). Ah, but the figurative uses of the word go far beyond the literal. And it was you, after all, who said that Bostonians were not 'deputized' IN ANY SENSE OF THE WORD. Presumably you included the figurative along with the literal when you made that statement.

                      Shall I dig up for you literary and even legal uses of 'deputize' that fail to conform to your literal definition but that have stood the test of time? I think you shall probably find them on your own, should you choose to do a rudimentary search.

                      Here's a good place for you to start:

                      FWIW, to deputize can also mean to ask to substitute for or delegate to, in addition to the correct literal definition you provide.

                  •  Police would almost always (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:

                    ask the public to provide information.

                    Gondwana has always been at war with Laurasia.

                    by AaronInSanDiego on Sun Apr 21, 2013 at 08:56:01 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

              •  I'm fairly sure I would not have (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:

                reacted in "melt-down mode" if it had happened during the Bush years.

                Gondwana has always been at war with Laurasia.

                by AaronInSanDiego on Sun Apr 21, 2013 at 08:54:37 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

              •  Actually, the Bush administration shut down (0+ / 0-)

                air travel across the US for something like two days after 9/11.

                all civilian airplane traffic in the United States and Canada was grounded until September 13, 2001
                And pretty much everyone was just fine with that.

                Wall Street was shut down until 9/17. Buildings, monuments were closed and sporting events were cancelled across the nation.  

                Under the Bush administration, portions of the entire nationwere shut down for one, two or more days.  And everyone was pretty much OK with that.

                I'm not passing judgement whether that was good or bad, but that to say if Boston had been shut down under Bush that DailyKOS would have gone nuts is just inaccurate, in my opinion. There would likely be a discussion much like today's with some agreeing that safety is an overriding concern and some believing freedom to possibly endanger themselves in the face of the unknown is more important.

                "The law is meant to be my servant and not my master, still less my torturer and my murderer." -- James Baldwin. July 11, 1966.

                by YucatanMan on Sun Apr 21, 2013 at 02:26:23 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

            •  it was done during Bush's presidency (0+ / 0-)

              on 9/11. that's why folks were walking home. MTA and tunnels shut down as well as bridges. for at least 12 hours if memory serves. just saying....

              anyway, it maybe easy to to$$ around glib statements about "backup plans" but in doing so you are also creating a narrative where this is the new precedent. that remains to be seen.

              i think solving a major investigation this quickly should be a precedent, and if ASKING people to stay home for a day (instead of asking them to go shopping) is a way of involving people who want to help. I see nothing wrong with any of it. people were posting all kinds of witch hunt pictures, so FBI releasing suspects pix creates accurate crowd sources and protects innocents like the poor kid on the NY POST.

              as for the different mood: maybe you should ask yourself why you have to see things through an "if this were Bush" filter? is that really any more accurate or enlightened than the view that this is a different event, informed by a different set of circumstances?

            •  why would there be different "mood" if this (0+ / 0-)

              happened during Bush presidency?

      •  How did the public's input speed up the process? (4+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        88kathy, TealTerror, catwho, caul

        All that accomplished was fingering the wrong people.

        The breakthrough in IDing the perps came from the guy lying severely injured in the hospital.

        Somebody has to do something, and it's just incredibly pathetic that it has to be us.
        ~ Jerry Garcia

        by DeadHead on Sun Apr 21, 2013 at 01:57:12 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  As I recall, (14+ / 0-)

      the sequence of events w/r/t LEOs identifying the suspects went like this:

      LEO had obtained grainy video of the area of one of the bombings from Lord & Taylor.  The footage wasn't sufficiently high resolution to allow them to make an ID using facial recognition technology.

      In retrospect, we know that Jeff Bauman, the injured spectator at the Boston Marathon who lost his legs, confirmed for LEOs that the two persons LEO had picked out of the L&T footage were the actual suspects.  So, LEOs put out a call to the public in order to get more high res photos so they could ID the suspects.

      The eventual submissions that aided them were photos taken at the finish line immediately prior to the blast.  They could have put out a call to the public specifically for those, but it seems they wanted to enlist the public's help in finding those suspects' whereabouts simultaneously...maybe to flush the suspects out, as well.

    •  DeadHead - They pretty obviously don't (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      yella dawg, indie17, Caipirinha

      have the technology to match blurry surveillance phots with people they might have interviewed.

    •  Perhaps they wanted (0+ / 0-)

      to see whether the public could be counted upon to help when asked to do so. What better opportunity to test that could they ever have had?

  •  i take my cues (33+ / 0-)

    from the people of the boston area, including boston area kossacks, not one of whom seems upset with the official response. the media were, of course, largely awful, but the horrendous misidentifications didn't come from the authorities. going public seems to have helped flush the suspects into the open, and the people of watertown cheered the police, when it was over.

    spencer ackerman has a good post at danger room. with the advent of phone cameras and social media, we are all effectively spying on each other, all the time, even if we aren't aware of it. if i'm taking pictures or videos of a public event, and a crime is committed, i might have evidence. at the boston marathon, multiply that might have by many thousands. the authorities were trying to tap that public resource.

    The cold passion for truth hunts in no pack. -Robinson Jeffers

    by Laurence Lewis on Sun Apr 21, 2013 at 01:59:21 AM PDT

    •  I do not question the resources (8+ / 0-)

      nor the general reaction to the horror and the outcome.

      I'm just wondering if it could be done better.

      Will we shut down cities in the future and for how long?

      Will we always inform the criminals by broadcasting their photos world wide?

      Could the investigation have been done better, if so what will be the methodology.

      As I said what was done is done, but can you learn from how it was done?

      "Another world is not only possible, she is on her way. On a quiet day, I can hear her breathing." Arundhati Roy

      by LaFeminista on Sun Apr 21, 2013 at 02:06:33 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Yeah. Next time they'll call in airstrikes, drones (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        srkp23, CuriousBoston

        and shut down the whole state.

        Somebody has to do something, and it's just incredibly pathetic that it has to be us.
        ~ Jerry Garcia

        by DeadHead on Sun Apr 21, 2013 at 02:09:51 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  they shut it down quickly (28+ / 0-)

        they got their suspect, and although one cop and one suspect were killed, it could have been so much worse. and all apparently with not only local public cooperation, but full support. that's pretty damn good, in my book. just compare it to lapd shooting up innocents, when chasing their man, a couple months back.

        The cold passion for truth hunts in no pack. -Robinson Jeffers

        by Laurence Lewis on Sun Apr 21, 2013 at 02:16:02 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  I dont know... (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:

          we could compare it to the LAPD shooting incidence, or we could say that when some nut plants a bomb in Hollywood, it is going to be them very same police shutting that city down.

        •  I was studying in London (1996- 2003) during the (5+ / 0-)

          both the the IRA and Real IRA bombing campaigns I remember the Docklands bombing well.

          That was organized terrorism and requires a different reaction.

          "Another world is not only possible, she is on her way. On a quiet day, I can hear her breathing." Arundhati Roy

          by LaFeminista on Sun Apr 21, 2013 at 02:35:40 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  I was in London during the 70's (4+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            tardis10, TealTerror, Gareth, Susipsych

            and Paris during the 80's, when both suffered bombing campaigns, the former from the IRA and the latter from the GIA.

            People didn't cower in thier houses, and the police used brains and intelligence rather than overwhelming force to get the perps.

            The point of terrorism is to impact the maximum number of people by making a random gesture, and in this case these guys were wildly successful, just like the shoe bomber.

            •  You don't anything about Boston, do you? (14+ / 0-)

              The people there were not "terrorized".  They were fuckin' pissed off and ready and willing to find the bad guys.

              Listening to the NRA on school safety is like listening to the tobacco companies on cigarette safety. (h/t nightsweat)

              by PsychoSavannah on Sun Apr 21, 2013 at 05:33:54 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Agreed (10+ / 0-)

                Boston shuts down for blizzards too.  And nobody is terrorized about it.  

                Pissed off, sometimes, yes. But we know when to stay out of the way and let the professionals do their job.

                Whether it's plowing the roads or catching a terrorist, most people don't mind taking a day off if it means we can get back to normal the next day.

                People here work harder than anywhere I have ever lived -- I don't know any other city where so many people get to work by 7am!  Being told that you should spend a day with your family now and then is not a problem for most people.

                I really don't think people outside of Massachusetts understand this state at all.  

                But I LOVE that dirty water !  
                Boston you're my home.
                (Even though I'm originally from the Bronx.)
                Go Sox!

                "My mother always taught me they can have their own opinion but that doesn't mean they are right." -- Marcelas Owens

                by Mad Mary on Sun Apr 21, 2013 at 06:18:44 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

            •  This is such a ridiculous comparison (3+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              indie17, sukeyna, Nowhere Man

              I was in Paris for one of those bombings, and I passed through England many times during the period of the IRA bombings. The city of boston was closed because of a situation of HOT PURSUIT of the bombers. You can bet your god damned boots that when/if the police of either Paris or London were in hot pursuit of bombers engaged in throwing bombs out of the window of their cars they might have chosen to shut down areas of the city or the entire city to prevent the escape of the bombers.

              As I said upthread BOSTON WENT BACK TO WORK AS USUAL THE DAY AFTER THE BOMBING. We all went back to work and school and we certainly did not allow terrorism to terrorize us. The shutdown of the city was not done out of fear but out of expediency--no different from closing the ports to prevent someone from escaping.

              The analogy you are drawing is completely absurd.  If you were  honest about the way the British police reacted to the IRA bombings you'd admit that it was far more hysterical and violent than anything the Boston police ever dreamed of doing because Irish people were attacked for those bombs in their home territories. There was retaliation and overreaction to spare--its just that it was directed at an ethnic minority elsewhere and in the metropolitan area where the bombings took place.

              •  You are showing your lack of knowledge (0+ / 0-)

                in the last paragraph. The British police did absolutely nothing in Northern Ireland, because Northern Ireland was policed by a separate Northern Ireland Police force.

                The situation in Northern Ireland bears no resemblance to Boston as it was an ongoing sectarian conflict, similar to say Bahrain, whereas the mainland bombings were pure terrorist acts aimed at obtaining a political end.

                The communities in Northern Ireland withdrew into "ghettoes" based on sectarian identities, just like Baghdad, and the military was drafted in to keep them ( and particularly the military wings - Provos, UDF etc) apart.

                What happened in Boston was a relatively small (think Murragh Building) terrorist bomb attack by individuals who did not want to die for the cause.

                As the LaFem points out, seen from a perspective of people who have lived through terror campaigns, the action of the police etc in Boston can be seen as over the top, and sub optimal.

                For perspective, where are the 2000 EPA inspectors in West, Texas hunting down the asshole who killed (or wilfully allowed to be killed) some 30-60 people.

                •  The British were in Northern Ireland (0+ / 0-)

                  You are correct that it wasn't the "british police" reacting against the irish community in Northern Ireland, that would have been the British military. However it is not the case that the british police were not involved in profiling and arresting Irish in Great Britain, because they were.

                  Fuck you and LaFem for this glib remark "people who have lived through terror campaigns the action of ht epolice etc.. in boston can be seen as over the top and sub optimal."

                  This, too, is incorrect. The Boston police and the FBI conducted a perfectly ordinary man hunt for two criminals accused of a mass bombing of a major public event and concluded it in record fucking time--something that the British in London and the french with their various bombings only wish they could have managed. Certainly we beat the record of the Atlanta police/fbi with the Olympic bombings. Labeling this terrorism or not terrorism is besides the point--it was a major act of criminal mayhem and the police got their man in relatively short order by a full court press.

                  I don't get the weird fake ego behind claiming that some other city in europe was less fazed by their bombings than Boston was by ours. The entire fucking city went back to work the next day without a tremor. In the course of a major manhunt it was decided to shut down the city for a day. That wasn't some kind of pants pissing or an error in judgement it was a considered and legitimate action taken by local authorities who, for whatever reasons, did not think they could adequately police the entire metropolitan area under the circumstances. What you think London did or didn't do, or France did or didn't do, is irrelevant.

                  But like I said I passed through both Paris and London during the time you are talking about and if you think there wasn't police overreaction and attacks on ethnic minorities and suspects (which there weren't in Boston) you have another think coming.

                  •  Passed through - makes you an expert? (0+ / 0-)

                    as for

                    Fuck you and LaFem
                    keep it classy bro.

                    Your idea of a "perfectly ordinary manhunt" is hilarious.

                    Shutting down a city, and its transport system is "perfectly ordinary". How come they don't shut down cities for the LA cop killer?

          •  Me too (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            tardis10, TealTerror, caul

            I worked in a different area of Docklands but passed over the site of the 1996 bombing on the DLR (Docklands Light Railway) about 90 minutes before. My apartment is on the other side of the river but I heard it clearly and the shock rattled my windows.

            You may also remember there was a bungled attempt at further bombings about 2 weeks after the 7/7/2005 suicide bombings. One outcome was the killing of an innocent Brazilian who lived almost next door to a suspect (later convicted). On the other hand, there was a siege in an apartment block where another suspect and accomplices were holed up. They surrendered after being surrounded by  a small fraction of the number of police who rushed into the Boston location.

            We will work, we will play, we will laugh, we will live. We will not waste one moment, nor sacrifice one bit of our freedom, because of fear.

            by Lib Dem FoP on Sun Apr 21, 2013 at 04:46:23 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  i was in london (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              middleagedhousewife, Caipirinha

              just days after 7/7. three times in just a few days, i had to walk blocks out of my way, because suspicious packages were found- lost backbacks, forgotten bags- and the police swooped in and shut down entire blocks. one time, i was with a companion who didn't know london, and authorities so swiftly taped off the sidewalk that she was caught on the other side, and would have needed to walk a maze of crazy streets to reach me, but the police allowed her to pass quickly through to me.

              no one seemed bothered. no one complained. it was a hassle, but everyone worked around it. and the day they reopened the tube, plucky londoners were running right down into it. amd of course, days later police killed an innocent man on an underground train, because they wrongly thought he was up to something. in boeton, prople seem to have responded with the same pluck, and the boston police got in, got out, and didn't hurt any innocents.

              The cold passion for truth hunts in no pack. -Robinson Jeffers

              by Laurence Lewis on Sun Apr 21, 2013 at 08:38:15 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

        •  I live in a state where the governor shut down (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Laurence Lewis

          the entire state, except emergency and essential personnel could be out, during the Blizzard of 93.  I know of a few people stopped by the police and told to go home and stay off the streets.  But no one was told to stay indoors, you could go outside and take a walk but it was a blizzard and a white out so it was rough. We could not see more than a foot or two in front of us, if that.  But we shut down for 2 days and not allowed on the streets.

          Follow PA Keystone Liberals on Twitter: @KeystoneLibs

          by wishingwell on Sun Apr 21, 2013 at 07:56:36 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  Or the NYPD shooting 9 bystanders (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Laurence Lewis

          in front of the Empire state Building last August.

          I am frankly amazed that something similar didn't happen in Boston given the mindset of the bombers.

      •  Whitey Bolger was hunted for decades (0+ / 0-)

        He was found very quickly after the FBI broadcast his and his girlfriend's photos.

        I'm asking you to believe. Not in my ability to bring about real change in Washington ... *I'm asking you to believe in yours.* Barack Obama

        by samddobermann on Sun Apr 21, 2013 at 03:11:24 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  I see your point about your cue-taking, (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      footNmouth, buddabelly

      although arguably a traumatized city is going to do whatever authorities say and applaud if the agent of traumatization is apprehended.

      Basically, 9/11 marked the creation of a Security State, formed in terror, and the Overton Window has been moving further and further to the right on the whole security state thing ever since. Now we see all over dK lots of agreement with this heavy-handed style of law enforcement. Wonder how the reaction would be around here if there were an R in the White House ...

      The 9/11 attack was a massive success for the terrorists: death, mayhem, destruction, financial ruin for the U.S., and a populace ready to play along with security theatre or militarization of law enforcement.

      There are moments when the body is as numinous as words, days that are the good flesh continuing. -- Robert Hass

      by srkp23 on Sun Apr 21, 2013 at 05:57:00 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  A massive success? (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:

        Only on 9/11 itself.  We've largely decimated al Qaida's capacities since then.

        •  i think her point (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Hillbilly Dem, chrississippi

          is that 9/11 changed us, including domestic spying, a war that became a great recruiting tool for the bad guys, and a staggering waste of money, on multiple fronts, while washington is trying to dismantle the social safety net supposedly because we can't afford it anymore.

          The cold passion for truth hunts in no pack. -Robinson Jeffers

          by Laurence Lewis on Sun Apr 21, 2013 at 08:13:31 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  the security state (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        aimai, rsmpdx, Nowhere Man

        was created by truman. if boston police now wanted something permanent based on their massive presence last week, i could understand the worries. and i have no doubt bostonians would crticize it. but from what i've seen, they got in, got their suspect, and got out, and things now will return to normal.

        The cold passion for truth hunts in no pack. -Robinson Jeffers

        by Laurence Lewis on Sun Apr 21, 2013 at 08:10:12 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  disagree (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        indie17, churchylafemme, Caipirinha

        people on DK are not in "agreement with this heavy handed style of law enforcement"...

        nice strawman!

        There is disagreement over whether this was heavy handed or appropriate. i happen to think your position is uninformed, in the true meaning of the word. I think you are looking at this with preconceived ideas about what opinions should be on this site, the "if this were Bush..." filter, that causes you to see a shift in opinion where none exists.

        I grew up in Boston: In my memory there are at least ten times that I can remember when people were asked to stay home during an emergency, including weather and at least one hazmat train derailment that sent us home from school early and had us sheltering in place with the windows closed.

        I think most of us can agree that the problems with the response to 9/11 came at the highest levels and were strategic in nature (Iraq, torture, Patriot Act). and there were certain procedure issues (radio communication problems) exposed during the emergency. but does anyone think that mobilizing a lot of police in an uncertain emergency is always and only a sinister plot? i had to get to work everyday after 9/11 and I was happy to see a bunch of cops on the subway, in the weeks and months after. why? because we didn't know what was going to happen. trust me, you have to live through it to understand. my guess is you haven't... I may be wrong.

        there is always a danger in seeing only what we want to see, and you seem to dismiss what others are saying with buzzwords like Overton Window and security theatre. why don't you listen for a while without judgement? none of have the facts yet. DK from Boston seem to be saying "this isn't a police state thing, we wanted this" which is also what my mom and sister tell me (both very LW liberals).

        please be open to the possibility that you are not correct.

  •  I made a similar point (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    tardis10, TealTerror, eXtina, caul

    If you look at the huge number of police vehicles that clogged the surrounding streets, the upteen different uniforms of the various branches of local, state and federal police and other agencies and the amount of technology on the streets in terms of what in any other country would be considered appropriate perhaps for a paramilitary police force like the CRS in France; you could see that there was both a lack of co-ordination and an excess spending on military hardware (compared to intelligence gathering etc).

    The classic approach to a search is to identify an immediate search radius using assumptions about how far the suspect could have reached within the time it will take to put up the cordon. You lock down that and search quickly. If you do not find anyone, you widen the radius of the search. In Boston, the opposite happened. The initial 20 block radius was searched, cleared and the lockdown lifted. Then and only then a home owner ONE BLOCK from the initial search area saw blood and reported it.

    One thing to consider - how badly was the immediate area around the abandoned car contaminated by the police piling in so dog units could not follow a trail?

    We will work, we will play, we will laugh, we will live. We will not waste one moment, nor sacrifice one bit of our freedom, because of fear.

    by Lib Dem FoP on Sun Apr 21, 2013 at 02:34:03 AM PDT

    •  There were two cars... (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      TealTerror, elmo, Nowhere Man

      ...the second suspect wasn't in the hijacked car. He was in a second vehicle. So there may not have been a foot trail for dogs to find.

      There are lots of questions to answer, and lots of things to think about for handling this better. But I went to bed Thursday night having heard of a gun incident at MIT with very few details, and woke up Friday to learn of a gunfight with explosive devices in Watertown, and no news at all about how the 2nd suspect got away from the scene. Denying him the ability to move about within the perimeter a car might have gotten to did not seem unreasonable that morning!

    •  military hardware (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:

      it's fun to play with and looks good

      "I'm sculpting now. Landscapes mostly." ~ Yogi Bear

      by eXtina on Sun Apr 21, 2013 at 06:34:34 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Yeah, I really hate it when the police catch (11+ / 0-)

      a terrorist armed with explosives in my neighborhood the wrong way.

      "Every now & then your brain gifts you with the thought, 'oh, that's right, I don't actually give a **** about this.' Treasure it" -- jbou

      by kenlac on Sun Apr 21, 2013 at 06:54:42 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  I think the day of the shutdown , police wanted (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      indie17, rsmpdx

      to make sure the suspect did not escape again as he did escape their capture Thursday evening.  He did escape the perimeter and on foot. I think the very heavy police presence was because they wanted to make sure he did not escape again. I think all the police at the capture site was due to them being determined the kid would be surrounded on all sides with no escape route. As they did not know the extent of his injuries at that point. Sure the owner of the boat saw a lot of blood but police were not certain if all of that blood was because of an injured suspect and how injured was he? My uncle was a state police officer and he would tell stories of suspects who were injured and bloodied still escaping and police having to chase him down and it took a long time.  As one can never underestimate adrenaline, he would say.

      Follow PA Keystone Liberals on Twitter: @KeystoneLibs

      by wishingwell on Sun Apr 21, 2013 at 08:03:57 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Was I the only one who heard the lockdown of (13+ / 0-)

    Boston was to prevent people from congregating in large masses, oh, say like they would at the finish of the Boston Marathon, and where a lunatic with nothing to lose could blow up a bomb (or himself) and cause mass casualties?
    Hmm, guess I was ....

    Ash-sha'b yurid isqat an-nizzam!

    by fourthcornerman on Sun Apr 21, 2013 at 02:46:12 AM PDT

    •  I thought of that as no one knew then suspect (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      worldlotus, churchylafemme

      was injured and I thought the lockdown was also to keep large crowds from gathering where the suspect could have set off another bomb or starting on a shooting rampage anywhere. Shutting down also protects people from stray bullets or being injured accidentally and gives police vehicles free access to roads and streets with no traffic jams.

      Follow PA Keystone Liberals on Twitter: @KeystoneLibs

      by wishingwell on Sun Apr 21, 2013 at 08:06:35 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Media coverage was awful (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Yasuragi, wishingwell

    And imo the "coverage" by the "social media" types, i.e. via Twitter, was worse. The way it was all reported by both kinds of media could definitely have been better.

    As for the way it was handled by the various police departments and the FBI.... no, in my opinion they did a superb job and it could not have been handled any better. They did what they thought was best and at the end of the day they made the right calls.

  •  By now, you probably feel some relief knowing you (5+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    catilinus, TealTerror, tardis10, srkp23, caul

    are not the one. :) I wrote something similar soon after the FBI put out blurred images in the first press release asking for the public to help. It seemed surreal and somehow wrong. Yes, it may have gotten the job done, but I'd hate to see it go down like that again. I believe it could have caused more harm than good. I tried expressing that Friday morning, and got hammered in here. I felt like I was being accused of not being patriotic. It was very strange. The whole week - strange.

    And I'm still trying to figure out why the Texas plant explosion killing 14, with 200 injured and 60 missing as of yesterday, continues to take a backseat to the Boston bombing even after the suspects have been captures. It's as if we don't want to let go... I don't know. Or maybe it's because the Boston bombing was of a terrorist nature? Hard to say. I don't think the media was to blame. We all used them. They used us. Much of the social media news relied on mainstream for the facts, everyone stealing from each other until it became clear no one was really sure of the facts, except perhaps law enforcement? So many questions.

    In retrospect, I believe the president and FBI knew exactly what they were doing, and I"m sure they knew much more then -- than any of us know now. It worked out well, but the process still leaves me a little bit of a sick feeling.

    In the face of darkness - be the light.

    by Leslie Salzillo on Sun Apr 21, 2013 at 03:03:32 AM PDT

    •  Ignore the "sick feeling." It is unpatriotic. (6+ / 0-)

      Instead, just feel good that 10K armed folks took down 2 terrorists. Ignore any possible ramificitions on civil liberties or on the GWOT. Ignore any destructive memes that this may entail. I offer you that advice, can't take it myself, & doubt you can also.

      Personally for me, es la misma mierda desde 9/11.

      Es ist dassalbe afte thema seit 9/11

      America's greatest political dynasty...the Ka'an

      by catilinus on Sun Apr 21, 2013 at 04:41:49 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  What civil liberties violation? (7+ / 0-)

        What civil liberties violations are you talking about? I paid good tax money to be protected by the police and to have the police and FBI work to apprehend people who bomb my city. Fuck: they didn't even mistakenly arrest or shoot up the wrong people. This was an expensive but fairly well targeted attempt to arrest violent perpetrators. I don't understand this knee jerk need to see everything as a slipper slope to disaster. Of all the responses to a violent bombing this seems to have been among the most professonial and quickly resolved. It took them 6 YEARS to find the Atlanta Bomber and they tagged and destroyed the wrong guy first.

        Jeebus, people are never satisfied.

      •  oh right... (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:

        ... anyone who thinks this was handled reasonably well is ignorant. a patriotic idiot.

        while we're at it, should we also ignore that "10K armed folks took down 2 terrorists" is an absurd frame which might become a destructive meme if it falls into the wrong hands?

    •  Boston where they pay their taxes has a system (7+ / 0-)

      in place that can catch mad bombers.

      Texas where they don't pay their taxes, don't inspect their explosive factories, don't zone their vast spaces so towns aren't surrounding explosive factories. There are some big wig perps in Texas. But they are rich and powerful.

      guns are fun v. hey buddy, watch what you are doing -- which side are you on?

      by 88kathy on Sun Apr 21, 2013 at 05:20:38 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  It was handled fine. (17+ / 0-)

    Only the government is accountable to us about how it handles things, and the government did fine.  The media isn't accountable, and properly so.  

    You know, I sometimes think if I could see, I'd be kicking a lot of ass. -Stevie Wonder at the Glastonbury Festival, 2010

    by Rich in PA on Sun Apr 21, 2013 at 03:40:18 AM PDT

  •  I Don't Think . . . (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    . . . that your questions are inappropriate, or that you are alone in having concerns about the way the manhunt was handled.

    However, I'm not happy with "hate-spewing members of our population." The placement of your comment seems to indicate that you are referring to members of Daily Kos, and I think that's needlessly inflammatory.

    Of course, if you are referring to someone else, I will cheerfully withdraw that comment on your comment.

    Thanks to denial, I'm immortal. -- Philip J. Fry

    by IamGumby on Sun Apr 21, 2013 at 03:58:48 AM PDT

  •  Compared with how this COULD have (35+ / 0-)

    been handled in a worse way--much worse way--I think we have a lot to be grateful for.

    I would also like to correct something: Boston and environs were not "locked down". Prisons are "locked down". People stayed home VOLUNTARILY. Until I hear of an instance of a person arrested for no other reason than being on the street during that time, I'm going to take the word of my friends and family in Boston and assert that this was voluntary cooperation with the police. It helps no one to use that media "lockdown" language because it's NOT TRUE.

    What is truth? -- Pontius Pilate

    by commonmass on Sun Apr 21, 2013 at 04:01:46 AM PDT

  •  Riddled with bullets? (0+ / 0-)

    Anyone asking why a suspect that has been - according to the Washington Post - in sort of a 'melee' with the police and then had been run over by a vehicle - why said person then is delivered into the hospital with an indeterminable number of gunshot wounds?!

    I remember an incident in New York, where the suspect had been shot with more bullets than the German police fires during the course of a whole year.

    Maybe, just maybe, there should be questions regarding the professionalism of some of the cops on the streets of America...

    Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -- Philip K. Dick

    by RandomGuyFromGermany on Sun Apr 21, 2013 at 04:03:23 AM PDT

  •  Unexploded Bombs Were Found In the Field as (15+ / 0-)

    well as in the suspects' apartment.

    It's hard to put the terms "authorities" and "patience" into a viable sentence given that fact.

    I suspect it could've been handled much better but I've got nothing to work with yet.

    We are called to speak for the weak, for the voiceless, for victims of our nation and for those it calls enemy.... --ML King "Beyond Vietnam"

    by Gooserock on Sun Apr 21, 2013 at 04:21:03 AM PDT

  •  CNN's new call letters should be FUD (6+ / 0-)

    Wolfie Blister was out of control proposing all sorts of doomday "what ifs".  He should be replaced.

    As for releasing the photos publicly, recall it was rumored they were going to release photos of men in baseball caps, then the press conference was cancelled. Then 24 hours later they did release the photos. I think they tried circulating the photos to police during that 24 hr period, but got no hits. So they then went public. I think they were afraid the perps would leave the country, thus the urgency to get an identification.

    The city lock down was good i thought. Because if the perps started to run, they would stand out.

     I don't fault the fbi/police for their methods.  But we may find out more as details get released.

    Obama Style Justice: Make 99% of Bush Tax Cuts Permanent. Then cut Senior's Social Security to pay for it. Hey Grandma, F#@K YOU!

    by CitizenOfEarth on Sun Apr 21, 2013 at 04:47:31 AM PDT

  •  I live 1 1/2 miles away from the Tsarnaev's apt. (35+ / 0-)

    And I work 2-3 blocksaway from where the MIT officer was killed.

    My take is that the media was a circus, and did far more harm than good.

    But I don't agree with you re: The law enforcement approach.  I think they did what had to be done. These were two dangerous people who had bombs and more importantly had already demonstrated a willingness to use explosive devices on the public.

     It's nice to talk about approaching it with more subtlety - that sounds good in theory.  But in the meantime the entire area is living under a threat of being randomly blown up, and I can tell you from firsthand experience it sucks living under such conditions.

     I think they had to smoke these guys out, bring the matter to a conclusion.  It's not as if these guys didn't still pose a threat in hiding.  They had quite the stockpile in their apartment.  

    Long story short: I respectfully disagree with you re: the law enforcement approach.  With respect to the media circus aspect I am in total agreement.

    There's another old saying, Senator: don't piss down my back and tell me it's trickle down

    by mosec on Sun Apr 21, 2013 at 04:50:14 AM PDT

    •  Yes I think Shelter in Place was largely due to (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      indie17, rsmpdx

      Law enforcement finding bombs in their apartment and the seven devices found around the area after the shootout Thursday night. They kept finding these bombs and were probably worried people would be out and about and could be blown up or start messing around with something that could be a bomb or IED.  Iamgine children out playing and picking up an IED or messing around with it, not knowing what it was.  

      Follow PA Keystone Liberals on Twitter: @KeystoneLibs

      by wishingwell on Sun Apr 21, 2013 at 08:15:29 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  I was thoroughly impressed by the (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    dharmafarmer, mrblifil

    investigators and the responders throughout the entire event.  That is, until the final scene.

    The homeowner lifted the tarp on the boat and saw the kid inside covered with blood and barely conscious, and he called the police.  A negotiator was in place to talk the kid out of the boat but even he wasn't necessary because there was no way he could get out without help.

    Why the shoot-out before they removed the kid?

    The religious fanatics didn't buy the republican party because it was virtuous, they bought it because it was for sale

    by nupstateny on Sun Apr 21, 2013 at 04:54:05 AM PDT

  •  Monday morning quarterbacking is as popular (8+ / 0-)

    a sport as armchair sleuthing. Bombers and bombs were still out there. (As one bobblehead misspoke "police are concerned Boston is boobytrapped with IUDs") The bombers were, for once, actually armed for mayhem. The stay in shelter call was disconcerting, but appropriate. Who wants to be caught in a firefight? As much as I am viscerally opposed to the militarization of police, at least I was shown once instance where it came in handy. Appropriate for Boston, maybe for larger cities. NYC police have shut subway lines to find common criminals in the past.

    I did hear early on (amidst the drek of reporting)  that the FBI was previously aware of these suspects.  You may have noticed the FBI made a decision on Thursday that the risk of successful flight outweighed the risk of revealing the faces to the public (with the subsequent explosive chase).

    Oh, the media is terrible.... no news there. The fringe outlets? Apparently Obama called Rent-A-Terrorist and hire a Saudi national to do the deed with Michelle's pressure cooker. NO NEWS THERE either.

    As far as the bomber's legal status, it seems authorities are threading the needle. He will be Mirandized after they get what info they need from him. (I have to say, I'm for this. Who knows what and who is still out there.) Calls for enemy combatant status are politically motivated, but worth public discussion, not a rush to judgement.

    So my answer is, sure it could have been handled differently, but not necessarily better. The media is what it is, just pathetic and often counterproductive.

    Even if I knew that tomorrow the world would go to pieces, I would still plant my apple tree. -Martin Luther

    by the fan man on Sun Apr 21, 2013 at 05:09:29 AM PDT

  •  I agree. Speculation is the refuge of the ill (0+ / 0-)


    Never argue with an idiot. They will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.

    by thestructureguy on Sun Apr 21, 2013 at 05:32:53 AM PDT

  •  no, you're not the only one. (5+ / 0-)

    but you're wrong.

    "Just because you win the fight, don't mean you're right," - Funkadelic

    by AlyoshaKaramazov on Sun Apr 21, 2013 at 05:33:08 AM PDT

  •  I don't necessarily agree (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Lady Libertine, LieparDestin, HCKAD

    but I think these questions need to be asked, so I recced.

    The best argument against you IMO is that the police had no idea how many unexploded bombs might still be out there, so there was a risk of more death if people were outside.

    But in any event, this discussion should be had, not just dismissed out of hand as being "armchair quarterbacking." (Isn't armchair quarterbacking of our government what citizens are supposed to do?)

    "He, O men, is the wisest, who, like Socrates, knows that his wisdom is in truth worth nothing."--Socrates

    by TealTerror on Sun Apr 21, 2013 at 05:44:35 AM PDT

  •  Thank you, LaFem. (7+ / 0-)

    And judging from comments around dK, the Overton window on the Security State has been successfully moved toward the right.

    There are moments when the body is as numinous as words, days that are the good flesh continuing. -- Robert Hass

    by srkp23 on Sun Apr 21, 2013 at 05:47:32 AM PDT

    •  Not really..., (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      the fan man, Quicklund, emelyn

      not yet at least.  Right now, you're reacting to noise.  Nobody  (me included) knows whether anything has moved anywhere.  Yet you view it as fait accompli. Comments on a site, even this one, don't mean all that much in isolation.

      •  Heck, even before this event, that the OW (0+ / 0-)

        on the security state has been moving rightward (as evidenced by this site) is not really debatable, so not sure what you mean.

        There are moments when the body is as numinous as words, days that are the good flesh continuing. -- Robert Hass

        by srkp23 on Sun Apr 21, 2013 at 06:02:29 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Perceptions are always colored by experience... (0+ / 0-)

          I grew up in the 60's and 70's in the Boston area and went to school for a number of years in Montreal, PQ as the Parti Quebecois was coming to power.  That's my context.

          There were periods then when the same claim could be made.  It was noise and it was segmented noise that impacted certain aspects of society.  

          Same thing now.  Yes, the tool set and technology have changed.  Certain things that use to be hard are now technologically easy.  However, a lot of details that you may label as police state, I'd view as simple prudent data mining of information that people willingly (and naively IMHO) put out there with abandon.

          To me, security state implies a level of control and invasion of personal space that I simply don't see at the moment, nor do I see it heading directionally there at the moment on a societal level.  

          I'd agree that a level of technology and infrastructure exists to make it happen and I worry when clowns like Rep. Peter King talk of increased surveillance on selected ethnic/religious groups (seems he's unaware of our legal system) and folks like Ted Cruz (multiple instances of thoughtless sputter), but I'm also aware of what unfolded under Joe McCarthy.  Relative to that, we're further away from a "security state".  There's a flow in these sentiments driven by current events, as there always has been.  In a long view, the extremes are aberrational fluctuations.

      •  Language. Remote controlled bomb became IED. (0+ / 0-)

        Although that is what they were, we haven't heard that terminology used before on our soil. Insignificant maybe, except it made me feel more susceptible to seeing the US as part of "the battlefield" in the war on terror, with all subsequent decisions that fall from this perception more tolerable.

        I saw reporters quickly change the focus of the distressed uncle's statement from “This has nothing to do with Chechnya. Chechens are ... Anything else, anything else to do with religion, with Islam – it's a fraud, it's a fake” to simply "Someone radicalized them".

        As I said before, this was perhaps the first and only time I've seen police as military force make sense. It may make future events, like Occupy protests, more likely to be stomped on with the jack boot with public approval, but that remains to be seen.

        Even if I knew that tomorrow the world would go to pieces, I would still plant my apple tree. -Martin Luther

        by the fan man on Sun Apr 21, 2013 at 06:12:34 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  Things always could have been done better (6+ / 0-)

    but in the event, they just did what seemed reasonable.
    Armed men determined to kill innoncent people are indeed a threat to public safety. They had a duty to post pictures of the two and ask for the publics help, thats just basic police work.
    the notion that it was coordinated by the media to sell papers or ad time is just pure CT.

    Happy just to be alive

    by exlrrp on Sun Apr 21, 2013 at 06:00:18 AM PDT

  •  As a person who pays his real estate taxes (27+ / 0-)

    in person at Watertown town hall, I would like to ask kindly that you all stop staring at your fucking navels and speculating from afar about what went on in "our fair city" and how we supposedly feel about it.

    Nobody there was in panic mode. They were in "get these fuckers" mode. They blew up a bunch of people. Then they knocked off a convenience store. Then they killed a poor kid working a minor police detail. And we're all supposed to go, "Oh, hey, let's just think this through a bit, make sure we don't look like we're overreacting in the eyes of a bunch of people the internet.

    You're usually smarter than this LaFem.

    "Every now & then your brain gifts you with the thought, 'oh, that's right, I don't actually give a **** about this.' Treasure it" -- jbou

    by kenlac on Sun Apr 21, 2013 at 06:07:54 AM PDT

    •  Well part of the media hype she is talking about (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      zed, jayden, Sanctimonious

      is evident in your post, is because after all the dust was settled and actual facts instead of speculation came out, it was learned that they did not in fact rob the convenience store.

      And just because it is 'your city' does not mean it won't be 'our' city next time around, for some other reason for someone some other administration considers a terrorist. Whether you are for or against the government response, it is certainly every citizens right to discuss.

      •  When it's your city... (5+ / 0-)

        ...and let's just note here that I hope to hell your city never goes through something like this...

        ...when it's your city nobody is going to catch me Monday morning quarterbacking what your police force is doing about it based on what I see on my TV screen.

        "Every now & then your brain gifts you with the thought, 'oh, that's right, I don't actually give a **** about this.' Treasure it" -- jbou

        by kenlac on Sun Apr 21, 2013 at 07:29:57 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  BTW, thanks for catching my error on the (3+ / 0-)

        convenience store. It caused me to look more carefully into the timeline of events, and I now realize I left out the 'effing carjacking.

        Police located the stolen SUV in Watertown, Massachusetts.[78] Police in Watertown reported that they exchanged gunfire with two suspects following the MIT shooting,[79] with explosions and much gun fire heard. It was later determined that about 200 rounds were exchanged.[80] The Boston Globe reported that the shooting suspects were the same men being sought in the Marathon bombings.[71] A Watertown resident observed the perpetrators exchanging gunfire with police and throwing explosives at them.[77] Tamerlan came within 5 to 10 feet of the nearest police officer while firing at the officers, before he ran out of ammunition and was subsequently tackled and captured by police officers. At that time the other, Dzhokhar, managed to escape in the SUV, forcing the police officers to dive away while Dzhokhar drove over his brother Tamerlan and dragged him a short distance down the street.[76] He then abandoned the SUV and escaped on foot.[76][77][81] During the firefight, 33-year-old MBTA Police Officer Richard H. Donahue Jr.[82] was critically wounded. He was taken to Mount Auburn Hospital, where he was in critical but stable condition.
        But, y'know, maybe we ought to consider from afar whether, oh perhaps we just kinda... overreacted a bit to all that.

        "Every now & then your brain gifts you with the thought, 'oh, that's right, I don't actually give a **** about this.' Treasure it" -- jbou

        by kenlac on Sun Apr 21, 2013 at 08:18:48 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  I wish I could rec this (7+ / 0-)

      a million times.

      I'm not in Watertown, but I am in MA.

      First of all, Patriots Day is a Holy Day of Obligation if you're from MA, and the Marathon is the Required Pilgrimage. They fucked with something that makes Boston Boston.

      Second of all, we all know somebody. I know a guy who was 100 yards away, and a girl who had just left the site of the second bomb (with her toddler daughter!) My sister actually knows somebody that lost a leg. And, yes, like 90% of MA, I've been to the Marathon--more than once--and actually thought about going this year. This is the Boston equivalent of dropping a bomb in Times Square on New Year's Eve.

      The MIT cop graduated from the same university I'll be graduating next month.

      So, yes, "GET THESE FUCKERS!" We would have stood on our heads if that would've helped the cops get these guys.

      And the only "message" that any outsider playing Monday-morning quarterback should be taking from the response is this: This is what happens when you fuck with Boston. Lesson? DON'T. FUCK. WITH. BOSTON. If you do, we'll send 10,000 cops after your ass. Remember this.

      "Maybe: it's a vicious little word that could slay me"--Sara Bareilles

      by ChurchofBruce on Sun Apr 21, 2013 at 07:09:53 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  well said (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:

      Great job by the law enforcement too.

  •  One of the repeated threads through OWS (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    ChurchofBruce, Adam B, old possum

    was the question of why cops were so focused on laying the smack down on protesters and not doing their real jobs.

    If there is an instance of law enforcement doing their real jobs that is more pure and uncontroversial that tracking down the Tsarnaev brothers, I am unsure if there is such a thing.

    I fully respect, regard and say 'darn right!' to the imperative of remind those with guns, be they military, law enforcement or our fellow citizens, that we are not of a mind to enshrine a warrior caste.

    Yet there are so few opportunities to say, yes, well done. Thank you. We're so glad you're on the wall, guarding our sleep.

    Though, heh, sleep might have been the most scarce commodity this week in Beantown.

    Ok, moving to procedural "...and let's discuss how to do this even better next time" issues, I think we see an ease of commentary on media figures (Blitzer, Murdoch) and politicians (Graham, that idiot Bell from Arkansas) and wannabe influence peddlers (Infowars? Really?). That's consensus against the mob-raising is even stronger than Americans' polled consensus for background checks to stop terrorists from easily buying guns....and makings for explosives.

    As for law enforcement particulars, one I home in on is perhaps, maybe a faster drawdown on a much more focused drawdown would have been preferable.

    At some point, Tsarnaev was pinned down and all persons of interest in the case located. Metro Boston is a big, big area. Waterdown is larger than a boat.

    Also, US military doctrine is all about concentration of force to achieve maximum leverage. No need to have that "9,000 cops" figure all over metro Boston. Just have, oh, 90-100 tops around one boat, and similar number around other particular locations of concern. So long as you don't go over 100 particular locales, you save labor and save almost all the city from being sheltered in place.

    Or, if that's too complex, or leaves too many holes I'm not experienced enough to see, just have a smaller lockdown area and reduce it to the size of a boat over time.

  •  I'm still appalled that these two amateurs (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    escaped the notice of DHS given the surveillance they do and the budget they have.
    But, they weighed showing their pictures carefully and waited so I have no problem with that, and the safety exclusion of Miranda seems warranted in this case as there may have been other bombs present,a nd it predates the war on terra

    "I'm sculpting now. Landscapes mostly." ~ Yogi Bear

    by eXtina on Sun Apr 21, 2013 at 06:20:15 AM PDT

  •  Yes, This Should Have Been Handled Much (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    eXtina, kkjohnson, jayden


    Help me understand this: The FBI needed help identifying the bombers when they had been informed months ago by Russian authorities that Tamerlan had been radicalized when he visited his father in Dagestan?

    Why did the names of the brothers not automatically rise to the top of the suspect list after a bombing of an obvious high profile target-- near where these guys lived?

    The FBI/police should have been knocking on the doors of where these guys lived within an hour or two after the bombing. Everything that happened Thursday night, the shooting death of the MIT officer, etc., could have been avoided.

    The obvious larger fail is the failure to stop the bombing itself. Again, Tamerlan should have been very much on the radar of the FBI and CIA. he was visiting extremist websites, he purchased materials to make the bombs, he purchased guns and ammo; all of this is trackable.

    This is not the first time our intelligence agencies have failed to stop an attack/potential attack when they had a clear warning. The "underwear bomber" being one example.

    As I've pointed out here before, we're spending enormous resources on "security" but it appears to be only for apprehending criminals after they attack. It doesn't appear much is being done to preempt an attack even though we clearly have the tools/resources to do so.

    "The 1% don't want SOLUTIONS; they've worked very hard the last four decades to get conditions the way they are now".

    by Superpole on Sun Apr 21, 2013 at 06:21:56 AM PDT

    •  I agree none of this should ever have gotten (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      kkjohnson, old possum

      to the point it did especially with two such obvious amateurs. But who knows how much has been prevented. You don't hear about those.

      "I'm sculpting now. Landscapes mostly." ~ Yogi Bear

      by eXtina on Sun Apr 21, 2013 at 06:25:43 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  It reinforces the fact... (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:

      ... that our rights have been taken away for no good reason whatsoever, and that all the sucking up of our internet & phone communications [without a proper search warrant while giving telecoms immunity from being charged with illegal searches, per FISA fiasco '08 & the earlier Patriot Act] is a waste of time and resources.

      It would be far better to target a suspect and get a proper warrant (or warrant after-the-fact which is easy to do and was originally provided for) than to just generally suck up all communications and sift through endless bits of info with no results.

      I'm sick of attempts to steer this nation from principles evolved in The Age of Reason to hallucinations derived from illiterate herdsmen. ~ Crashing Vor

      by NonnyO on Sun Apr 21, 2013 at 07:58:37 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Right (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:

        We're not surveilling the right people.

        It has to get much more about being proactive not just reactive-- acting after an incident happens.

        "The 1% don't want SOLUTIONS; they've worked very hard the last four decades to get conditions the way they are now".

        by Superpole on Sun Apr 21, 2013 at 08:03:43 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  Geez, gosh. (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      emelyn, old possum, VClib

      You think he's the only person in the Greater Boston area about whom the FBI had received any word in the past five years?  How would they even know to narrow it down to Chechens?

    •  So suddenly (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      indie17, churchylafemme

      you support tracking and spying on everyone's activities?  I thought that was the sort of thing we didn't support on this site.

      "Why did the names of the brothers not automatically rise to the top of the suspect list after a bombing of an obvious high profile target-- near where these guys lived?"

      You mean within the same large, major metropolitan area?  Um, how exactly would that process work?

      Let's stop and think about this -- some FBI agents had a talk with Tamerlan two years ago.  Whoever those agents were, they probably do interviews like that every darn day.  And have been doing so for years.  They've probably built up hundreds of dossiers over their careers, maybe thousands.  Just in the Boston area.  And most of them probably are of people who seemed more legitimately dangerous than Tamerlan did.  And there was no reason to think that the bombers were even necessarily from the Boston area.  They could have come from anywhere in the world.

      So, in sum -- how exactly were the police supposed to figure out that it was these two individuals?  How would their interviewers even be able to remember Tamerlan and his doofus younger brother from amongst their scores of interviews two years ago?  Psychic powers?  And if they wanted to start looking in their dossiers from the past several years, how would they even start searching?  Or alternatively, were they supposed to mobilize every swat team on the face of the earth and start knocking on the doors of every single person who has ever been questioned by counterterrorism all over the country?

      I'm inclined to think that that these processes would have been a hell of a lot slower (and hence would have allowed a lot more opportunity for further attacks) than just releasing the photos and asking, "has anyone seen these guys?"

      •  No, not "Suddenly" (0+ / 0-)

        if you've been around here, you'd know I've been advocating surveilling (the right people) for some time now.

        Your problem, the problem with numerous "progressives" in Bloggo world is you don't actually want solutions to our major problems.

        What you're doing is aiding and abetting the fear state, needed to attempt to justify the gigantic amount of money we spend year after year on security (theater).

        "The 1% don't want SOLUTIONS; they've worked very hard the last four decades to get conditions the way they are now".

        by Superpole on Mon Apr 22, 2013 at 05:32:56 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  This is what a police state looks like (9+ / 0-)

     photo ap_boston_celebrates-suspect_custody_flag_smiling_students_mn_thg_130420_wmain_zps80d570b0.jpg

    Happy just to be alive

    by exlrrp on Sun Apr 21, 2013 at 06:39:16 AM PDT

    •  People celebrating (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      CharlesInCharge, Sanctimonious

      While others lay dead or in critical condition. Yipeeeee, lets have a parade!!!

      •  Lunatic murderers off the streets - YEAH! nt (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        emelyn, old possum
        •  I understand people were relived. (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:

          I was in Boston and was also relieved. But I didn't think it appropriate to act like there should be celebrating like you won the Super Bowl. Two stupid assholes paralyzed a city, so despite what people want to say, these guys actually were successful.

          •  Can people stop talking about "paralyzing a city" (5+ / 0-)

            That.Did.Not.Happen. We voluntarily decided to listen to the professionals we hired, including our governor, and stay home that day to enable our professional law enforcment to do their jobs. The city was not paralyzed. These guys were not successful. To the extent they wanted to blow people up they succeeded at that and they did kill and maim--but its clear from their panicked reaction after they were so quickly identified that they did not succeed in their main goal which was to do what they did and resume their ordinary lives. They.did.not.succeed. We were not terrorized. We got back our city and our safety and our sense of security within one week of a major and seemingly inexplicable bomb attack.

            •  Public transit was shut down (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:

              Businesses were asked to not even open so I disagree with your point of view.

              I know people want to say they failed, but from a terrorists point of view they didn't.

              •  You know what terrorists want to do? (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:

                Yeah, me neither. Terrorists really don't get off with a pointless temporary shut down of a city. They want to move public policy or move political realities. bin laden wanted to create a war with the US and he got that--he succeeded. He didn't care about bringing down the towers, that was just a mean's to a real political goal. Do you honestly think that anywhere in the world any actual political party/terrorist organization is saying "Yay! For an entire day no one could get starbucks in downtown boston?" Do you seriously think they think any cause is advanced by this bombing or by the swift police reaction? Or by the fact that both brothers weren't martyred but rather caught and shown up as, in the uncle's memorable words, "losers.?"  

          •  So wrong (4+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            mrblifil, old possum, indie17, aimai

            and it's comments and attitudes like this that alienate average folks from progressives.
            You don't think it's appropriate so celebrate? This is better than the Super Bowl. A couple of lunatic murderers are off the street. That's a wonderful reason for celebration!

            these guys actually were successful.
            What a load. The people of Boston joined together, with law enforcement, and caught the murderers. That's wonderful.

            If you want to sit in a corner and brood - go ahead.

  •  "Am I the only one thinking that by publishing (7+ / 0-)

    photos of the main suspects on national and international TV might just induce panic in the suspects? Perhaps a little discrete questioning of local people, or a search on the internet might have lead to a cleaner arrest? Have a look first, then if you cannot find them publish the photos?"

    Why do you assume this didn't happen?

  •  Twitter=journalistic equivalent of a 30-round clip (0+ / 0-)

    Allowing journalists and others the ability to instantly broadcast whatever unconfirmed tidbit they overhear serves no purpose but to drive people into a hysterical frenzy, especially when news organizations post so many of these as facts. I don't have any numbers to base this on, but I'm guessing that at the height of the incident the ratio of tweets that had no basis in reality to tweets with substance was something like 5,000:1.

  •  Another diarist got multiple HR's for raising some (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    stevej, mrblifil

    of the same questions. Interesting.

    You can't make this stuff up.

    by David54 on Sun Apr 21, 2013 at 06:57:16 AM PDT

    •  You think so? (0+ / 0-)

      Because the other diary was HR'd for CT, and it had statements like this:

      "How is it they were carrying around all that ammo/guns/ieds/bombs/etc to have it conveniently show up in the Mercedes they "hi-jacked"?"

      "The "Stay Safe" Tweet - is being repeated in the press like they don't know how to tell time. I have heard newsguy say it was Tsarnaev the Younger crowing about their bombing success. Not sure how he can interpret it like that since it was sent about 15 hours BEFORE the bombing."

      This IS the diary you are talking about, isn't it?  I note that you recced it.

      Oh, and just for those that don't know, the "Stay Safe" tweet occurred after the bombings.  Takes very little research to find it.

      •  I reread it. I took him to be asking questions, (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:

        not positing a particular CT.
        I thought the focus of his diary was the rush to judgment through the fog of the mainstream media and the "feed" from authorities. I guess there's some sense of CT in there, but I took it as questioning.
        At this stage in the episode I'd prefer to see more questions and answers that don't seem "baked".
        I glossed over on the tweet.

        You can't make this stuff up.

        by David54 on Sun Apr 21, 2013 at 03:21:02 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  The feeding frenzy (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    tardis10, mrblifil

    going on here was certainly not this website at its best.

  •  When armchair perfection (8+ / 0-)

    is the enemy of real world good.

  •  The good news is that we don't have troops (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    yella dawg

    streaming into Uzbekistan because a couple of renegade Chechen/Chechen-Americans bombed us.

    However, the bad news is that police depts. look more and more like army units.

    Ultimately, "law enforcement" is what ended this. A police officer unfortunately was there, and was killed, and that led to the end of this saga.
    The officer was "there" because he was paid to be there.
    With taxes.

    You can't make this stuff up.

    by David54 on Sun Apr 21, 2013 at 07:06:10 AM PDT

  •  AND.... (0+ / 0-)

    We know that the real news never gets on the news. The massive feeding frenzy in the media on this event makes me think that there was something else going on that we were supposed to be distracted from. There are a couple of candidates, but we may have to wait a while to find out the real story.

    Overreaction, for sure ... almost everyday in Iraq something worse than this happens.

    There's room at the top they're telling you still But first you must learn how to smile as you kill If you want to be like the folks on the hill

    by taonow on Sun Apr 21, 2013 at 07:06:37 AM PDT

  •  Hind sight is 20-20 (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Capt Crunch

    There were (and still are) a lot of unknowns.  It does seem to me that if this had been state sponsored terrorism or a cell of some kind the two trigger men would have been a bit more sophisticated.  Who doesn't realize there will be cameras and video cameras all over the place at the Boston Marathon?  If you don't want to draw attention, why wear a glaring white cap - and backwards to top it off!?

  •  Valid question, but no. (0+ / 0-)

    Trying to pass the photos around discreetly wouldn't have worked. Once a few people knew, everyone would know. So best to just get it out there and flush them out.

    They had more bombs in their hands and lots of weapons. Who knows what would have happened given a couple more days?

  •  The message to future disaffected young people (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    zed, CharlesInCharge

    contemplating a massacre in their school or community is, rather than being treated as a criminal, the entire security apparatus of the US  and everything in its arsenal short of tactical nuclear weapons will be brought to  bear to turn your hated town into an  occupied territory. That'll show them. Plus you'll be the only thing anyone talks about on TV. Validating just how special you are. Esp if you wrap your sick revenge fantasies in a thin tissue of 'jihad'.

    •  I believe this is called (in less emotional times) (0+ / 0-)

      the "Law of Unintended Consequences".

      Some politician (don't remember who now) actually suggested using a drone. Oy vey.

    •  There have always been teenage murderers (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      middleagedhousewife, sukeyna

      There have always been teenage murderers in this country--look up Leopold and Loeb. There have been thrill seeking killers--look up Ayn Rand + Murderer to read about her personal favorite torture/killer. And ever since Columbine there have been school shooters and, of course, Adam Lanza. This boston thing is just a blip on the landscape of thrill seeking terrorist acts by young men. The actions of the police in catching these guys can't be seen as significant in that trajectory.

      •  Talking heads are already saying Boston will be (0+ / 0-)

        the new model for how these rampages are handled in the future. I dont think its a good one.

        •  A) talking heads talk (0+ / 0-)

          B) so what? What are you objecting to? Could this have been handled better? I'm sure it could. I would have gotten Dzohar's wrestling coach on a loudspeaker and had him talk the kid out early in the day of searchign in watertown. But other than that what is your beef with the way this was handled?

    •  thanks (0+ / 0-)

      thanks for making the message so clear.

      Oh... you weren't trying to help disaffected young people see murder as a means to get attention? you were just commenting at length on how someone might get that idea, not from you, but from someone else making that point (again, not YOU making that connection) or maybe they get that idea from the news or it just pops into their head, but the fact that YOU are pushing that meme isn't at all adding to any risk that someone disaffected might see it exactly as you see it. Right?

  •  Perhaps we can blame NRA for some of this (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    Firstly, Moronic Media could have been more help than they were if they had verified what the hell they were doing rather than put the wrong photos out there and run with stories that had to be immediately corrected by law enforcement.  Media could also have been a helluva lot more helpful in their live coverage if they had refrained from editorializing their comments.  Off of one of the links to a local Boston CBS station, I was listening to two anchors, and the man (whose name I never did catch) was UNhelpful with his opinions about what he wished out loud (it was worthy of Faux Snooze UNhelpful 'wishful thinking' and opinionated editorial comments).  I remember thinking that a defense attorney could have a field day with those comments.

    Secondly, IF this story about the NRA is true (I've never heard of "The Natinal Memo," so I don't know how reliable they are), neither the NRA - nor our Cretinous Congress Critters, on top of their latest insult that rejected common sense gun controls - have done us any favors:

    How the NRA Impeded the Boston Bomber Investigation

    By David Cay Johnston, The National Memo (20 April 13)

    The intense hunt for the Boston Marathon bombers illustrates another way that the National Rifle Association helps mass murderers - by delaying how quickly they can be identified.

    The inability to quickly track the gunpowders in the Boston bombs is due to government policy designed and promoted by the NRA, which has found a way to transform every massacre associated with weapons into an opportunity for the munitions companies that sustain it to sell more guns, gunpowder and bullets.

    The price for such delays was put on terrible display Friday morning when the two brothers, who had been caught on video placing the bombs, killed one police officer, wounded another and carjacked a motorist, creating conditions so unsafe that the 7th largest population center in America spent Friday on lockdown.

    But for the NRA-backed policy of not putting identifiers known as taggants in gunpowder, law enforcement could have quickly identified the explosives used to make the bombs, tracking them from manufacture to retail sale. That could well have saved the life of Sean Collier, the 26-year-old MIT police officer who was gunned down Thursday night by the fleeing bomb suspects.

    When the TV station I was listening to began to repeat itself I clicked it off and got some sleep (I have my nights and days turned around again).  When I awoke they had the second fellow in custody.

    Still, if there's anything to the above story, both the NRA and Congress Critters have some 'splainin' to do....

    I'm sick of attempts to steer this nation from principles evolved in The Age of Reason to hallucinations derived from illiterate herdsmen. ~ Crashing Vor

    by NonnyO on Sun Apr 21, 2013 at 07:19:03 AM PDT

  •  I don't get the point of this diary (9+ / 0-)

    It's a free press and free internet with millions of independent actors. It's not something that can be controlled, or should be controlled.

    As far as the government goes, they had pictures well before they published them. I assume initial efforts to ID them were not working and time was critical because the perps might have more bombs. And they did.

  •  I moved from Boston a couple of months ago (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    But was staying at a hotel in Newton when this all happened. After staying up half the night watching the news and listening to police streaming by, I woke up to the "lockdown" along with everyone else.  At first I didn't question it but as the day went on I began to feel we were losing something, giving in to the fear. I understand there was a real threat and people were dead, but shutting down not just Watertown but an entire metro area seemed questionable.

    After spending most of the day in the hotel room, I got stir crazy and decided to take a drive to New Hampshire to do an errand. I left my hotel and got on the turnpike and drove out of the city. I realized there were no road checks, not even one police car at the tollbooth. If I had been the fugitive (who was hiding a short distance from me) I could have stolen a car and driven away with no one even noticing. So an entire city told to shut down, yet really, it wouldn't have stopped me from simply driving away, maybe never to be seen again.

    So yes I wish more people were questioning instead of celebrating.

  •  They've always shown photos of suspects-- (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    mrblifil, middleagedhousewife

    "Have you seen this person?" sort of thing.

    How many crimes got solved after being on "Unsolved Mysteries"?  

    But the media feeding frenzy is correct.  And the ONLY people talking about it were the fake news people Stewart and Colbert.  NO ONE ELSE mentioned it.  No one mentioned the CNN and Post fails.

    "Nothing in all the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity." --M. L. King "You can't fix stupid" --Ron White -6.00, -5.18

    by zenbassoon on Sun Apr 21, 2013 at 07:23:56 AM PDT

  •  i just know i don't want me in charge (4+ / 0-)

    This reminds me of listening to a woman complaining to her husband about how badly the shuttle busing at the 4th of July fireworks was going. The poor guy eventually said 'fine- next year you can be in charge.'  i for one am amazed at how quickly it all came to an end, and at how few people lost their lives. It all could have gone so much worse.

    "...i also also want a legally binding apology." -George Rockwell

    by thankgodforairamerica on Sun Apr 21, 2013 at 07:25:10 AM PDT

  •  I don't think we really have enough info (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    NonnyO, emelyn

    to know whether they over did it or not...but that won't keep us all from speculating. One thing I do know, is that after catching the first 15 minutes of Chris Hayes on Thursday night (he was discussing social media and mentioned Reddit - apparently I'm the last person to discover this site...) I went to the internet to read reddit. There was a link there to listen to the BPD scanner and I listened for about 3 hours. While they were focused on finding the "bad guys" there were hundreds of other "bad guys" roaming Boston - domestic violence, apartment break ins, robbery, false info on where the bombers lived, an officer down in I'm sure that part of the shut down on Friday was just to keep the police from having to answer so many other calls, so they could keep their focus on the bombers. This strategy would not have been sustainable for much longer but for one day I believe it was worth it.

    As someone who lived through the DC Sniper - 3 weeks of terror - I'm very glad that it only took 4 days to solve the Boston case. Did they make mistakes or over do it? Maybe, but I think we would all be here having a similar but different discussion if they hadn't caught them so quickly.

    •  Now if you all want to have a discussion on how (0+ / 0-)

      awful CNN's coverage was and Chris Matthews rush to judgement - I'm all in.

    •  It will take many months... (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Ginger1, Radiowalla

      ... to do a minute-by-minute (even second-by-second sometimes) reconstruction of the events, study it all, then assess what "could have, might have, should have" been done differently, if at all, and what procedures and practices may or may not need to be changed IF this sort of thing happens in the future.  Actually, that last part may take more than a year's assessment once the reports are completed.

      I agree with you, in other words.

      I do think that shutting down everything helped in THIS particular case because it meant fewer cars to check if the kid had tried to run.  A car on the road would have stuck out like a sore thumb, so keeping everyone off the roads THIS time helped enormously, as did keeping people in their homes.  That may have been an abundance of caution, but they did not need another bombing event with more people injured and/or killed IF the kid had more explosives set to go off somewhere.

      This kind of action probably wouldn't work for future senseless criminal actions, but THIS time I think it was most likely the better option.  It made sense when I heard about it that day, and it still makes sense these few days later (if other facts come to light later, I may change my mind; right now it still makes sense).  Goodness knows, the area didn't need any more innocent people injured or killed after Monday's horror.  Keeping people home and away from potential injury or death in a public place is preferable to having to pick up pieces of their bodies after a disastrous event like shrapnel bombings or bullets being fired at them for whatever reasons these fellows invented as an excuse to kill or wound so many innocent people.

      "Woulda, coulda, shoulda" is easy these few days out, but we most assuredly do not yet know all the facts..., so we need to wait until ALL of the details are known, and timelines and reconstructions, and assessments are done before we do any second guessing.

      After all, we were not there.

      I'm sick of attempts to steer this nation from principles evolved in The Age of Reason to hallucinations derived from illiterate herdsmen. ~ Crashing Vor

      by NonnyO on Sun Apr 21, 2013 at 07:51:32 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  No one was checking cars (0+ / 0-)

        I drove out of town from a location a few thousand yards from where he was hiding. No one checked who I was or where I was going.

        •  That's disturbing (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:

          they were stopping amtrak trains to check but not checking a car leaving from Watertown!

        •  If you didn't fit the profile... (0+ / 0-)

          ... or drive the kind of car they might have been looking for, there would be no reason to stop you.

          It's called "profiling" for a reason.

          In my youth I worked in law enforcement.  If cops are looking for a white person with blonde hair, they ignore anyone who doesn't look white or have blonde hair.  If they're looking for a red vehicle, they ignore the others.  Etc.

          Profiling has gotten a bad name in recent years, but if you talk to any good law enforcement person of any racial or ethnic background, they'll tell you the same thing.  If they have a valid description of a person or a car, or picture of a perpetrator and/or a car, they ignore anyone and anything who doesn't fit the description.

          I'm sick of attempts to steer this nation from principles evolved in The Age of Reason to hallucinations derived from illiterate herdsmen. ~ Crashing Vor

          by NonnyO on Sun Apr 21, 2013 at 10:57:03 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  I'm olive skinned (0+ / 0-)

            Brown haired young enough looking. Besides who's to say the back seat and trunk were empty? It's amazing the lengths people will go to to keep up the cop worship.

            •  Tsk, tsk, tsk... (0+ / 0-)

              Sounds to me like you wanted someone to stop you so you could bitch, piss, moan, groan, and complain that you were stopped for "driving while olive-skinned."

              It's amazing the lengths some people will go to to keep up the cop-hate froth-fest, up to and including being obnoxious for no discernible reason so someone in law enforcement has an excuse to pay negative attention to them so they then have a reason to complain.

              Are you as rude to clerks in grocery stores, the wait staff in restaurants, the kids behind the counter at the local fast-food places as it sounds like you are to local law enforcement, rescue personnel, or firefighters?  Are you always so defensive for no reason whatsoever?  Or do you have a guilty conscience because you did something wrong as a kid, were not caught, and still have a guilty conscience over it so you react defensively in fear of being held accountable many years later?

              Why would you expect someone to be nice to you if you act like a spoiled brat and don't use courteous manners you should have learned at home or at school as a child?

              Courtesy goes two ways, you know.

              I'm sick of attempts to steer this nation from principles evolved in The Age of Reason to hallucinations derived from illiterate herdsmen. ~ Crashing Vor

              by NonnyO on Mon Apr 22, 2013 at 08:37:21 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

  •  I thought it was pretty amazing how the FBI (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    were able to find these two amongst thousands attending the marathon through the mountains of videos they had to sift through. Quite a few people that day had backpacks on and to pinpoint the right persons was great work.

    I'm just wondering if once the photos were released if anyone was able to make a positive id or if the photos just weren't clear enough.

    Neighbors, teachers, friends, classmates, family members? Was anyone able to recognize these suspects in the hours after the photos were sent out.

    That's the part I'm unclear of.

  •  Listening to the police scanner (3+ / 0-)

    On Friday evening I was on Reddit to read the discussion about the photos of suspects in the marathon crowd. At that point the FBI video and stills were available. Someone posted something about an address, possibly of the bombers being given out on the police scanner. I tuned in. Heard nothing more than normal police activity. For some reason I kept listening. Most significant was an armed robbery of a 7-11 in Cambridge. Then, ominously, "officer down." Minutes later the anguished voice of a cop calling for help at MIT. It was all cryptic, but you could tell something very out of the ordinary was taking place.

    I kept listening even though it was not clear at that time that it was the bombers. Then, a report of a carjacking, pursuit, shots fired, bombs thrown, officers hurt. It was absolute pandemonium. Police cruisers, one after another, reported on the radio they were going to Watertown. Officers calling for "long guns," canine units. Then they were setting up a perimeter, a command post, searching the neighborhood. All this unfolded on the scanner.

    There's plenty of room for addressing tactics for the future, especially considering all the overlapping law enforcement agencies involved, but what I heard were people operating professionally under extreme stress heading into an unknown and dangerous situation.

    •  I stopped listening at 11:30 (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:

      thursday night - was there another officer shot in roxbury that night - I thought i heard that but can now find no reports of it.  I heard the request to send cars to MIT - my husband went there in the late 70's early 80's so we know Vassar street well. All the while I was listening I kept thinking that I  would never be brave enough to do their job - you truly never know what kind of danger you're walking into to. The police scanner was much better source of news than CNN.

  •  Classic Peggy Noonan passive aggressive diary (10+ / 0-)
    Am I the only one thinking that by publishing photos of the main suspects on national and international TV might just induce panic in the suspects? Perhaps a little discrete questioning of local people, or a search on the internet might have lead to a cleaner arrest? Have a look first, then if you cannot find them publish the photos?
    A little discrete questioning of the local people? WTF? This wasn't a shoplifting case.
    A search on the internet? Huh? How about they put out an ad on Craig's List for used pressure cookers?
    A cleaner arrest? In what way? In the arrest process the only person killed was a lunatic terrorist committing suicide by cop.
    A directive to our security agencies to review their actions and improve how they investigate and deal with the media without letting the suspects know the posse is on their tail.
    This is fantasyland. I WANT the murderers to run scared. That's when they make mistakes and get caught.

    It's this kind of starry-eyed, Pollyanna talk that make the left look so out of touch with reality.

    •  I want to second Capt. Crunch's point (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Capt Crunch

      There is something really wrong with people in that they can't rejoice at the one time that our police and FBI actually work to do what we want, efficiently, and protect us from bad actors.

      I'm totally not a pro-government person but this entire diary is veering very close reading like a right wing anarchist attack on an excercise of lawful police power.

      Look: we live in an organized society, a state, in which we gave up having to perform the police power ourselves and mete out justice ourselves. When a police force is incompetent or corrupt it doesn't bother to catch criminals at all. Catching these guys was actually the sole reason we need to have police around.

      I get that people are suspicious of government power, big data, whatever but admit that if you can't support government and the police in this situation you leave yourself open to the situation in West, Texas, where a low government intervention state basically lets its citizens get blown up with no recourse.  Because that's the flip side of Boston. (One is criminal and one is civil but I stand by the comparison).

      If you want to make it more stark you can compare the BPD's full court press to the lackluster response of the Chicago Police to the endemic violence there. Or the LAPD's craptacular approach in the Dornier case.

      I just don't understand the bitchery and the hysteria over this. We paid our guys to find the people who killed three and wounded 200. And we rejoice in the fact that for once in our lives we got our moneysworth out of our government.

  •  No, you are not the only one probably BUT, (6+ / 0-)

    IMO: This is a lightweight diary that makes your serious work appear less which I often admire and recommend.  This is just "Low hanging fruit."  

    Unless you have a skill set and a knowledge base that includes law enforcement and risking your life then you know nothing about the facts in the case yet continue to offer your opinion.  When you are responsible for your life and the life of others difficult decisions must be made.

    This is the kind of diary that makes folks in the mainstream discount what is written here.

    The proof as they say is in the pudding.  The number of officers and others  that got killed is minimal.

    Just sayin!

  •  I doubt it (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    emelyn, indie17

    Discretion is unlikely to have prevented the spree of shooting and bomb tossing that was the beginning of the end.

    Would have had the authorities not release the photos of what was then bombers at large in the community?

    I think you are second guessing and on the wrong track.

    What about my Daughter's future?

    by koNko on Sun Apr 21, 2013 at 07:46:56 AM PDT

  •  I have to believe that government (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    jayden, HCKAD

    agencies are reviewing the timeline of events and actions to examine where there can be improvements. All in all, I think the authorities acted pretty responsibly and effectively in this case.

    I do agree with the author about our governments continued willingness to shelve civil rights of suspected criminals. I have no love for these two ass hats but the captive should be mirandized and given access to a defense like any criminal. That's how we used to do it and it worked'll work now too.

    As for our corporate media, I don't believe they serve any  function except to sell their shitty product.

    -7.5 -7.28, A carrot is as close as a rabbit gets to a diamond.-Don Van Vliet

    by Blueslide on Sun Apr 21, 2013 at 07:51:56 AM PDT

  •  This is the site of finding problems sometimes... (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    kenlac, emelyn, Tony Situ, aimai

    If those LE officers hadn't shut down the city to find the suspects dkos would be calling heads to roll, that people are mor important than money and to do WHATEVER was necessary because lives were in danger! Those first responders can't win!

  •  Law enforcement can't cure stupid (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    Most of the stupid stuff was done by people law enforcement had no control over. It's hard to stop stupid people  from doing stupid stuff. That is the price for freedom of speech.

  •  Everything that happened in the (0+ / 0-)

    yesterdays could have been done a little (or a lot) better by everyone, once they see the results of what they did do.

  •  And we have the normal second guessing. (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    Takes little thought or courage to Monday morning quarterback.

    Everyone Chill the fuck out! I got this - unknown but credited to Barack Obama

    by natedogg265 on Sun Apr 21, 2013 at 08:14:31 AM PDT

    •  why do you want to shut down discussion (0+ / 0-)

      why not evaluate how this thing was handled and whether we would want it handled differently in the future? what a ridiculous comment. smells vaguely like obama's "looking forward not back" thing or whatever he said in regards to evaluating Bush Administration's war crimes.

      "Today is who you are" - my wife

      by I Lurked For Years on Sun Apr 21, 2013 at 11:16:57 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Sure, peope should evaluate what happened (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:

        But not every jerk on the internet with a keyboard. The various postings from posters here indicate that very few people have the faintest idea what happened, when, or why. If you want to call for congressional hearings on this go right ahead. But the couch potato inquisition that is happening here is nothing short of disgraceful. You guys come across like civil war re-enactors, the right wing congressman who used a watermelon and a gun to try to prove Vince Foster was murdered, and the various right wing guys who tried to prove, using model trucks and a sand box, that our soldiers in Iraq could never have run over a dog.

  •  I don't think that's knowable yet. (0+ / 0-)

    At some point answers to virtually all of the public's questions should be publicly known.

    I do think the public and law enforcement naturally know the difference between The Media and the necessary dissemination of information to and from law enforcement. In fact social media is already encroaching on any dependence on media organizations for that communication.

    The management of media organizations are accountable for any interference. Whoever really flipped to CNN for information, they had to stop after John King's real time meltdown.

    No professional post action analysis is ever spare no matter how perfectly the event transpired.

  •  Cops only went public after failing to ID: (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    A directive to our security agencies to review their actions and improve how they investigate and deal with the media without letting the suspects know the posse is on their tail.
    It was only after running the faces through the information that the FBI and police asked for public help in black cap and white cap.

    So yeah, they thought of the cost of tipping off the suspects and weighed it against the fact that SOMEONE is going to recognize them.

    That's not even "gun control". It's more like "massacre control".

    by Inland on Sun Apr 21, 2013 at 08:20:48 AM PDT

  •  In fairness, America has a lot yet to learn (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    about how to cope with terrorism.  This is all new to America and the learning curve is steep.

    It's a sad thing to say, but one day, when America is more accustomed to terrorist activity here at home, people will gradually learn to deal with it better.  The thing to understand is that terrorism is not about the amount of individuals killed and wounded on the day, it's about the disruption to normal life afterwards and the ongoing financial and psychological cost.  You CANNOT let them win on that front.  You HAVE to keep calm and carry on.

    The idea that an entire city should be locked down to search for one individual is clearly ludicrous and does not happen in other countries when terrorist attacks have occurred.  Noticeably, the second suspect was found immediately after the lockdown ended, and members of the public were allowed to get on with their normal lives.  I'm sorry to say that the response in Boston was, unfortunately, pretty much exactly what terrorists want.  We learned this in England a long time ago and America will have to learn it too.

    •  In these lovely incidents of (0+ / 0-)

      In these lovely incidents of terrorist acts after which people return to normal right away how often is the terrorist bomber actually caught? Do tell me about how calmly the Germans dealt with Baader Meinhof?

      We are a big country and we are an extremely violent country--more violent than Europe (at least since the end of the second world war). You might argue that this all goes the other way: we were able to use something we know how to do to capture these guys within a week of the first incident.

      •  On the subject of what Europe would have done: (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:

        I looked up Baader-Meinhof (RAF) in the wiki because I seemed to remember that Europe was not as cool as you all are pretending. Sure enough:

        Lawyers' arrests
        Several special laws were voted hastily in order to be used during the Stammheim trial. For the first time since 1945 lawyers were excluded from trial, after being accused of various accusations, like helping the formation of criminal organisations (Section 129 - Criminal Law). In that case the authorities invaded and checked their offices for possible incriminating material. Minister of Justice, Hans-Jochen Vogel stated proudly that no other Western state had such an extensive regulation to exclude defense attorneys from the trial. Klaus Croissant, Hans-Christian Ströbele, Kurt Groenewoldwere, who had been working preparing for the trial for three years were expelled the second day of the trial. On June 23 (1975), Croissant, Ströbele (who had already been expelled) and Mary Becker were arrested, and in the meantime police invaded in several defense attorneys' offices and homes, seizing several documents and files. Ströbele and Croissant were remanded and held for 4 weeks and 8 weeks accordingly. Croissant had to pay 80,000 DM, to report himself weekly in a police station and had his transport and identity seized.[27]:545-572
        Moreover, defense lawyers were not the only people (besides the prisoners) that were affected from RAF-trial. On November 26, 1974 an unprecedented mobilization by police and GSG-9 units, to arrest 23 suspected RAF members, included invasion to dozens of homes, left-wing bookstores, and meeting places, and arrests were made. However none of the guerillas were found.[30]:266 BKA's chief, Horst Herold stated that despite the fact that "large-scale operations usually don't bring practical results, the impression of the crowd is always a considerable advantage".[31]
        As for the aftermath of the 7/7 bombings of course everything was shut down for a while:
        Cabinet Office Briefing Room A (COBRA) was activated within minutes of the first reports of explosions, and remained open round the clock for over a week.
        The London Underground was closed in the hours following the attacks, and did not re-open until the following day, with a reduced service. The Circle line, and the Piccadilly line between Hyde Park Corner and Holloway Road, remained closed. Several other lines remained disrupted in the areas affected. Security alerts were also causing disruption.
        The entire London Buses network was suspended on 7 July, with all buses sent back to depot for security checks. Eventually, services outside Zone 1 in central London returned to operations, and a reduced Zone 1 service operated in the evening of 7 July. Services returned to normal on 8 July, except through affected areas.
        All major Network Rail stations in London closed on the morning of 7 July, re-opening in late afternoon. King's Cross remained closed until 8 July. Most national rail services terminated outside London, with Great North Eastern Railway trains stopping at Peterborough and Virgin Trains stopping at Watford.
        The London Ambulance Service reported that they would "only be sending ambulances to patients across the capital with life-threatening illnesses or injuries".[1]
        The Metropolitan Police Service urged people not to enter London, and to limit their usage of public transport.[2]
        Schools in the capital did not close on 7 July, as police thought it safer for children to remain in classes. On 8 July, most schools in central London were closed due to transport difficulties.
        In London, security responses saw major buildings such as the Houses of Parliament, Buckingham Palace and the United States Embassy sealed off. Most landmarks such as the London Eye and Westminster Abbey were closed. All theatre productions in the West End were cancelled, as were several concerts. The Bank of England commenced financial continuity plans, to keep the financial system operational.
        East Croydon station was closed due to a suspect package, but was later re-opened. There were reports of Victoria station being cordoned off by police amid reports of a "suspicious package" on a bus near the station.
        And that was true for the entire of GB, including scotland and portions of Europe.  Like Boston everything was up and running again the next day.

        None of the people blathering on about how Europe or the UK would have handled hot pursuit of suspected bombers know what they are talking about. When the London police even just thought they were pursuing a suspect they shot that poor Brazilian man to death. That's fucking panic.

  •  Police response was appropriate. (7+ / 0-)

    The police did exactly what they needed to do. With people off the streets, the suspect could not blend in and flee. With people off the streets, the danger of accidentally being hit by gunfire was eliminated.  Also, there could have been additional bombs. So, the "secure-in-place" was the way to go.

    Some of the major cable news outlets are not careful about accuracy. I followed the Globe and the well as the front page here. ( The staff at dailykos is good about reminding people how careful we must be about the "facts" as unfolding news is covered.)

  •  A lot of politicians and news media blew it (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    BlueZ, greengemini

    But criticisms of police procedure need a lot more work if we're going to get serious.  For starters all our impressions are in 20-20 hindsight.  Remember, in the initial days of the investigation the FBI and local police had little idea about who these suspects were, how many other individuals (or groups) they might have been connected with and what other plans they might have had.

    Any sane analysis has to start with what law enforcement knew on day one and what police procedures were called for in that scope.  I'm not an expert, but my impression is that police did an outstanding job.

    I'm not liberal. I'm actually just anti-evil, OK? - Elon James White

    by Satya1 on Sun Apr 21, 2013 at 08:36:15 AM PDT

  •  No, you're not the only one.... (3+ / 0-)

    And let me add one more troubling element to this whole debate.

    While the media were on 24/7 breathless reporting of every rumor and bloviating speculation modes, CISPA passed in the House with the support of nearly half the Dems.  

    Speaking of civil liberties, which we soon may not be able to do without some corporate/government entity listening in or looking over our shoulders.  

    Is it courageous to propose tax cuts but not identify a single tax expenditure to rein in? Is it courageous to target your deepest cuts on the poorest Americans, who vote in lower numbers and provide little in campaign contributions?

    by caul on Sun Apr 21, 2013 at 08:50:20 AM PDT

  •  One would hope (0+ / 0-)

    the media might learn, but given they are a private entity rather than a public one, I have my doubts.

    I've not been overly impressed with the private sector's ability to learn from their mistakes.  I think the public sector actually does a better job of this.

    And I cannot express in words how happy I am that law enforcement agencies involved did not kill the young man they were seeking to apprehend.  In my 53 years on the planet, I've seen far too many so-called manhunts end in death by cop.

    There are any number of things that could be learned by this: I'd also hope that the general tweeting public might also have learned some things, but like the lack of faith I have in the private sector and its ability to learn, my sense is that the general public learns even less well than the private sector.

    As individual specimens, we human beings have an amazing capacity to learn, but when placed in groups, those groups have to work hard to establish procedures and systems which reinforce and encourage this ability to learn.   Something about our need for one-ups-manship when grouped together that impedes that learning capacity, would be my guess.  

    Words can sometimes, in moments of grace, attain the quality of deeds. --Elie Wiesel

    by a gilas girl on Sun Apr 21, 2013 at 08:53:51 AM PDT

  •  I hope this doesn't become so common that (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    we learn to handle it with absolute grace.

  •  The day the story came out that a suspect was (5+ / 0-)

    being driven to the Federal Court House was really crazy in Boston. And then there was a bomb scare.

    Tues-Thurs we all went to work in the city and there were agents everywhere. At the time no one knew if other bombs were going to go off and agents were put in place everywhere, just in case ...

    I saw no one being hassled at all. The security was there in plain sight - just in case - and it was the appropriate thing to do.

    Getting people off the streets on Fri. was appropriate - after what happened at the shoot out on Thurs. nite and what was discovered in the apartment.

    No one knew if there was a bigger threat and so all precautions were put in place.

    Well done.

  •  This link may answer some questions: (7+ / 0-)

    From The Washington Post:

    Police, citizens and technology factor into Boston bombing probe

    Apparently the pictures were released for several reasons, one of which was people on the internet were fingering the wrong people and causing great grief for these innocent people.

    Page 2 and Page 3 of the article go into this in detail.  

    “Fear is the path to the dark side. Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to ...the TEA Party."

    by StevenJoseph on Sun Apr 21, 2013 at 09:03:06 AM PDT

    •  Thanks for the link to article (0+ / 0-)

      The chain of events seem pretty much what happened as written in the article.

      And it answered the question I kept wondering about - were they positively id'd once FBI photo were released.
      As it turns out they were, by their aunt.

      •  You're welcome. (0+ / 0-)

        From the beginning I've been worried about the wrong people possibly being accused and/or convicted so I've tried to keep an eye on how the case is proceeding.

        “Fear is the path to the dark side. Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to ...the TEA Party."

        by StevenJoseph on Sun Apr 21, 2013 at 03:51:02 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  Hindsight is always 20/20. Overall, they did ok. (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
  •  What I have learned.... (6+ / 0-)

    America will stop everything and use every option available to chase around anything that can be described as terrorism.

    America will do nothing about the terror caused by insane gun availability laws and capitalist endeavors that ignore public safety.

    This better be good. Because it is not going away.

    by DerAmi on Sun Apr 21, 2013 at 09:04:16 AM PDT

  •  My only thought was if the shelter in place order (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    had been lifted sooner; maybe the boat owner would have called sooner and maybe it would have been over sooner. or not

    I know they will do a post debrief and make changes. Some will be better for the public, most will be better for law enforcement.

    As to the media. The hype was egged on by the media and it worked. People were glued to the story. The media got lots of clicks and viewership which makes advertisers happy. It could have been better, but the post analysis at the networks and news will be more like "What could we have done that would have been more sensational?"

    My post analysis is that I will be better off if I spent less time listening to the media noise if anything like this happens in the future.

    If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, in a state of civilization, it expects what never has and never will be. Thomas Jefferson

    by JDWolverton on Sun Apr 21, 2013 at 09:17:22 AM PDT

  •  eh (4+ / 0-)

    Maybe the media response looked different from outside -- I, living ~5mi away, stuck to very local news sources, which were occasionally jumping at straws but in an honestly mistaken rather than scaremongering way.  

    And stuff was less shut down than it was for the blizzard a few months ago -- honestly, I think the blizzard and its outcome (no lives lost, people a little annoyed at the inconvenience and thinking it was a bit of an overreaction but doing as asked anyway) played into this.  This time, it wasn't a shutdown order, just a request, and so people grumbled less and hung out at home.  And the area affected was much, much smaller -- while downtown was included, the next ring out in all directions except due west was business-as-usual.  

  •  Releasing The Less Than Perfect Photos Early.... (3+ / 0-)

    was inspired.  It took the bombers off their game, got the public involved checking their own shots of the day, & put the FBI back in charge.  We're on your tail, we are coming.

    The FBI & the cops were there, putting it on the line.  Now it comes out the bombers had other bomb plantings in mind.  But their cover was blown, no more anonymous bomb plants.
    Their faces were everywhere.  The noose was tightening.

    The dumb thing the bombers did was not get out of town before the pictures started appearing.  They didn't even have sufficient money for a get away.  They had
    to hijack someone & force him to withdraw $1800 @ gun point.  No getaway plan, boys.  

    Then in the end, suspect #2 ran over his own brother & dragged him for a while during his get away attempt.  He killed his own brother.  Let him live with that one on top
    of everything else.  He murdered his own bro who was
    still alive before he ran him over.  

  •  You're conflating several different things (6+ / 0-)

    here, willy-nilly, viz:

    1. the police response
    2. the media response
    3. certain politicans' response.

    Each of these things was different, and often they came into conflict -- for instance, the police were often frustrated with the media reporting too much on what they were doing or reporting false information.

    I cannot defend the media's behavior here.  But don't conflate that together with the police response.  We might sit back today and say, "oh, those police overreacted," but look -- they managed to corner and apprehend the one surviving suspect, with no one but their own killed or injured.  It's hard to imagine what more you want from them.  "Could you please save these civilians from heavily armed murderers, but do it a little quieter, and without inconveniencing me so much?"

    You also don't seem to understand that at the time the police released the photos, they did not know who the suspects were.  They only had those images and a little video.  How could they have surreptitisouly gone and arrested them when they did not know who they were?  Their release of those photos was no different from the cneturies-old practice of posting a "WANTED" poster.  Or a composite sketch, as the case may be.  Do you wish to argue that that has been a bad practice all of these years?

  •  ??? (5+ / 0-)
    Perhaps a little discrete questioning of local people, or a search on the internet might have lead to a cleaner arrest?
    The suspects had bombed innocents in a public forum. The presumption had to be that they were intent on setting off another attack immediately. It's the same reason there are photos in the post office of the FBI's top wanted. Do not approach, and alert authorities. Would pursuit of a "cleaner" arrest (whatever that means) have been worth the potential for more mass casualties?
  •  NYT quotes "senior law enforcement (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    old possum, greengemini

    official" on the decision to release the photos:

    F.B.I. officials, who had been debating all week whether to go to the public, were ultimately convinced that they had to release the photographs because the investigation was stalling and bureau analysts had finally developed clear images of the suspects from hours of video footage.

    “We were working the videos, and the footage was getting better and better as the week went on, and by Thursday we got a good frontal facial shot,” a senior law enforcement official said. “That tipped it.”

    The official added: “With that type of quality photo, there was no doubt about who they were. We had these murderers on the loose, and we couldn’t hold back, and we needed help finding them.”

    [emphasis added.]


    "Who the hell is Grover Norquist, anyway?" - George H.W. Bush

    by rsmpdx on Sun Apr 21, 2013 at 09:42:00 AM PDT

  •  Don't let online media off the hook (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    old possum, tardis10

    We were live-blogging these events like mad, both on DKos, Reddit, Twitter, you name it.

    The crowd-sourced "investigation" had elements of vigilantism (Brian Stelter, NYT):

    The crowd-sourced criminal justice system that flourished online this week was running at full tilt — and drawing sharp criticism — on social news sites like Reddit, where a number of people used guesswork to try to identify the suspects. There was at least one prominent case of mistaken identity late Thursday and early Friday: some users of Twitter, Reddit and other sites homed in on the visual similarities between a Brown University student reported missing in March and one of the suspects identified by the F.B.I. For a time, the student’s name was trending nationwide on Twitter. But reporters, relying on law enforcement sources, shot down the suggestion that the student was a suspect.

    The student’s family issued a statement later saying that the speculation had been “painful.”

    That misstep came after several days of frenzied, sometimes inaccurate, reporting about the bombings. On Wednesday, the F.B.I. chastised news outlets that mistakenly reported an arrest in the case, saying it could have “unintended consequences.” But the next day, the authorities used the news media to help display photographs of the two men it was seeking as suspects.

    "Who the hell is Grover Norquist, anyway?" - George H.W. Bush

    by rsmpdx on Sun Apr 21, 2013 at 10:00:31 AM PDT

  •  Sometime you WANT them to know the posse is there. (5+ / 0-)

    The word that explains it well is 'canalize.'  We don't hear that word often outside military circles; in that context, it usually means "make them go where WE want them to go."  An archetypal military example would be a minefield; if I deploy a minefield, the enemy is like to "go the long way around," yes?

    So, how best to canalize these suspects?  Well, I saw several specific steps that fit this model:

    * Minimize their ability to travel openly.  Crowdsourcing their identities and releasing their pictures was quite effective for this purpose.  We've been doing this for a VERY long time - ever see WANTED posters in your local post office?

    * Eliminate their ability to travel quickly.  Obviously, shutting down both mass transit and taxi services took this avenue away from the suspects.  It's also worth noting that releasing their pictures and identities made it almost impossible to obtain other means of anonymous travel (e.g. car rental).

    So, they can't really walk down the street in daylight, and they can't disappear into a crowd via bus, subway or train; they can't disappear into some anonymous rented vehicle or taxi, either.  In other words, they've been limited to evening travel in private vehicles.

    Now comes the trickiest part:

    * Minimize their ability to act or attack.  That's where the city shutdown and door-to-door canvassing comes into the picture.  By all accounts, it was handled professionally, courteously and well.  It also denied the suspects any potential "mass targets," since there were no large groups of civilians against whom to direct attacks; it also served to frustrate any accomplices that may have been preparing followup attacks.  Finally, it forced them to remain mobile WITHIN the boundaries set by law enforcement.

    Folks, there's a reason that urban operations demand a completely different doctrine of the military; in this case, we saw that much of that doctrine also applies to law enforcement operations.  Will they tinker around the edges?  Absolutely; there are always "lessons learned" from any operation, and it's only natural that each law enforcement group modifies doctrine in response to "what works" for their area, their terrain, their population, etc.

    Finally, understand that the media and Internet feeding frenzies will occur regardless of actions taken by government and law enforcement.  That's just a fact of modern life.  I can't think of anything that would have stemmed THAT flood.

  •  Decades of having it relatively (or seemingly) (4+ / 0-)

    good in the US (until the crash) combined with the steady deterioration of our education system, the spoiling effects on an overly materialistic culture, and the deadening effects of being overworked, have conspired to turn us into a nation of shiny object-obsessed adult children with an inability to contemplate anything or acquire the sort of wisdom that would allow us to put such events, horrible as they are, into some perspective.

    We've lost our ability to be sober and reflective.

    "Liberty without virtue would be no blessing to us" - Benjamin Rush, 1777

    by kovie on Sun Apr 21, 2013 at 10:30:45 AM PDT

  •  I have to (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    greengemini, rsmpdx


    Yes, the media needs to STFU.  They're wrong, jaw and speculate endlessly without information, jump to conclusions, because it's infotainment, not news.

    But no, I don't find the response heavy handed.  

    Seriously?  Someone sat in a room and watched videotape until they actually saw the bag being left there.  They listened to a victim who identified the guy who put it there.  

    They freaking identified the bombers in three days.

    They then posted their images, and almost immediately we knew who they were.

    Now we have two men running around the city with bombs and hand-made grenades.  They just finished shooting an officer at MIT - 26 years old - and the FBI knows where they are.

    They carjack a guy and hold him for an hour.

    They manage to avoid having the older one blow up anything further.  They diffuse yet another bomb.

    The other guy drives away, abandons the car - they track his every move almost in real time, and narrow the search to a few blocks.

    They keep people safe by telling them to stay in their houses while they search for a guy who may very well have a large bomb strapped to his body or a pocketful of hand-made grenades.

    They catch him.

    NO civilians were harmed.  Nothing was blown up or damaged except maybe the boat.  

    The infotainment complex needs to shut up if it can't reanimate the legacy of Murrow.  Xenophobic politicians and racist right wingnuts need to shut up.

    But law enforcement found these guys and managed to capture one without killing him - they put all their anger and adrenaline in check because we need to know what the kid knows.  

    No.  Tracking a carjacker or non-violent criminal and killing him in a hail of bullets after bashing the cars of innocent drivers is heavy handed, and it has happened more than once in L.A.

    Tracking guys who have coldly and methodically killed and shredded lives and who are running around an urban area with the same weapons + fear and adrenaline . . . and managing to capture them without harming civilians?

    I can't judge them to be heavy handed.  I don't know what they did before they revealed the photos to us.  I'm sure the brothers were already scared shitless, and if they didn't blow shit up because we knew who they were they would have blown shit up because we didn't.

    I know that the FBI's calculation - even if it seems wrong to us - worked.

    Change will not come if we wait for some other person or some other time. We are the ones we've been waiting for. We are the change that we seek. Barack Obama

    by delphine on Sun Apr 21, 2013 at 10:41:37 AM PDT

  •  silly wabbit. news isn't for conveying information (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    its for selling ad time/space.  and to do that to/for the largest audience requires discretion and measured response be cast to the wayside.  

    Fuck accuracy!


    and that includes 'new media' where diarists & citizen journalists care more about GETTING FIRSTEES and provoking emotion than raising the level of discourse.

    and, lets face it, the idea of "raising the level of discourse" is pretty boring compared to "REPUBLICAN MUSLIM GETS DICK CAUGHT IN TOASTER WHILE SMOKING MISSING COLLEGE AGE WHITE GIRL SHITTING POP-TARTS FROM AN ASSAULT RIFLE"

    drone strikes in Pakistan = Sandy Hook Elementary x10.

    by bnasley on Sun Apr 21, 2013 at 11:01:31 AM PDT

  •  No. Melissa Harris Perry brought up a variety (0+ / 0-)

    of issues surrounding the handling of the situation, as have several authors of diaries on site, most of whom merely got a lot of grief for their trouble, since they weren't all 'USA! USA! USA!-ish'.

    The logical path taken after every major endeavour is to examine it in terms of cost-effectiveness and ROI, not merely to cheerelead because a successful conclusion was reached, especially when you can probably expect future incidents.

  •  Although, as a followup (0+ / 0-)

    I think publishing the photos of the two men was actually a good idea, in fact one of the best ones that occurred, right along with the decision to crowdsource to find photos in the first place.

    With photos, everyone knew better who to look for - 'See something, say something'.  Without them, or with the 'shelter in place', you removed millions of eyes that otherwise would have been looking for the two men.

  •  Good God, Thank You! (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Dianna, dhshoops, tardis10

    I felt like like I was getting pretty heavy blowback here for saying the police/government response felt heavy handed, out of control, and honestly a bit creepy. Glad I wasn't alone.

    "Today is who you are" - my wife

    by I Lurked For Years on Sun Apr 21, 2013 at 11:11:16 AM PDT

  •  There is no way to bottle the crazy (0+ / 0-)

    but let's give credit to the Watertown Chief of Police, Pete Williams of NBC/MSNBC, and the people of the greater Boston area for their own personal conduct.

    Those who fought the war in Afghanistan won it. Get them out of Afghanistan NOW . . . It's long past time. To vote for me at NN13: \a< Thank you

    by llbear on Sun Apr 21, 2013 at 11:27:10 AM PDT

  •  youtube (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    How big is your personal carbon footprint?

    by ban nock on Sun Apr 21, 2013 at 11:51:27 AM PDT

  •  Tues, Wed, Thurs... (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    rsmpdx, Caipirinha

    Let's not forget that these guys were walking around for a few days, that the younger one showed up at his college campus at UMass Dartmouth, and that when the big chase happened, they were armed with a variety of explosives.

    I live just outside the "shelter in place" zone (and went to work per usual on Friday), and I have to say that the "please stay home" request--and it was a request--made sense to me. With the media focused solely on what was happening in Watertown, none of us know what else LE folks may have been doing that day--looking for bombs at MIT and UMass Dartmouth, scouring subway stations, checking under bridges. Today Gov. Patrick said he had been informed of unexploded devices in other locations. I'm not going to second guess an overabundance of caution or an overabundance of LE hardware the first time this city is confronted with the kind of terrorism others have learned the hard, sad way to handle differently.

    And then Saturday folks went to Fenway Park, the Sox won, and downtown Boston was filled with happy, smiling families and tourists and joggers and shoppers (and an apparent pot fest on Boston Common). We all looked less haunted than we'd been all week.

    I also want to echo an earlier comment: we do all know someone more tragically affected by these events, and I'm glad that LE quickly gave them one tiny bit of peace and relief, given the long, long road of their recovery.

  •  do remember that (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    the way you were recommending the investigation be handled, talking quietly to people and not releasing the pictures, was the way it was being done for the first three days.

    then on Thursday they decided to kill a member of the MIT campus police, and once it was established that these were the same guys who did the Monday bombing, the hammer really came down.

    So the major lockdown was sparked by their willingness to commit the fourth murder, and a fear that they had more murders and more bombs to come.  Also by knowing that "white hat" was confined to a small area with no chance to get away without hijacking another car.

    overkill, maybe. but would we be saying that if they had used their other pipe bombs to kill more people?  Should we have waited until their death toll was higher and THEN pulled out all the stops to catch them?

    it's hard to second guess at this point.

    Politics is like driving. To go backward put it in R. To go forward put it in D.
    Drop by The Grieving Room on Monday nights for support in dealing with grief.

    by TrueBlueMajority on Sun Apr 21, 2013 at 11:57:11 AM PDT

  •  I think that CNN and the Daily News (0+ / 0-)

    handled things dreadfully, and are a blot on their profession.  Lindsay Graham and other grandstanding politicians should hang their heads in shame.  As for the police, however, both local and federal, I thought they acted with restraint and professionalism, ESPECIALLY since one of their own was killed and another seriously wounded.

    With Occupy nationwide, as well as the stop-and-frisk tactics in NYC, we are accustomed to the police acting with thuggery, overuse of weaponry and violence, and tremendous arrogance, so we are primed to assume they will always be like that.  But in this case, we were proven wrong in our assumptions, thank goodness.  The cheering of grateful residents in the Boston area proves that a great deal went very right.

    "Why reasonable people go stark raving mad when anything involving a Negro comes up, is something I don’t pretend to understand." ~ Atticus Finch, "To Kill a Mockingbird"

    by SottoVoce on Sun Apr 21, 2013 at 12:07:57 PM PDT

  •  I live in the apartment complex in NB (0+ / 0-)

    that was raided on Friday afternoon. Thank God no violence transpired here but it just seems that there should have been some forewarning to the residents here that we were going to be  descended upon by scores of FBI/SWAT teams, heavy armory etc

    "I'm a white male, age 18 to 49. Everyone listens to me, no matter how dumb my suggestions are." --Homer Simpson

    by dhshoops on Sun Apr 21, 2013 at 12:18:06 PM PDT

    •  Have you really thought through what you just... (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:

      wrote?  Really?  You do know what a raid is, right?  Have you ever run into a raid which is pre-announced to the rest of the neighborhood/area (Guys - please - it's real important that this doesn't leak to the target - so promise not to tell?  OK?  No crossed fingers right?)

      Yea, it's nice nothing happened, but it's not like all this was happening in a vacuum.

      •  Believe me I know what you're saying... (0+ / 0-)

        but it just seems that there could have been some sort of discreet warning to the other residents in the complex i.e. "stay inside etc"

        "I'm a white male, age 18 to 49. Everyone listens to me, no matter how dumb my suggestions are." --Homer Simpson

        by dhshoops on Sun Apr 21, 2013 at 12:53:52 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  Ask the FBI. (0+ / 0-)

    I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just; that his justice cannot sleep forever. ~Thomas Jefferson

    by bobdevo on Sun Apr 21, 2013 at 12:21:18 PM PDT

    •  According to (0+ / 0-)

      this report on TPM, the Russian government makes that kind of inquiry, complete with insinuations about radicalism and terrorist ties, pretty much every time someone with Chechen ancestry applies for a visa to visit Russia. Apparently a juvenile hominid yelled "Canis Lupus!" a few too many times.

      Writing in all lower-case letters should be a capital offense

      by ebohlman on Sun Apr 21, 2013 at 05:56:14 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  I'm simply grateful it wasn't handled worse... (0+ / 0-)

    See Bush's before and after 9/11 response and the LAPD handling of the Dorner hunt.

    Republicans: They hate us for our Freedom.

    by mikeconwell on Sun Apr 21, 2013 at 12:39:40 PM PDT

  •  What concerned me and still does is the huge (0+ / 0-)

    number of bullets fired in areas with wood walled homes with the residents basically locked in.

    Why so much shooting and so few hits on what was supposed to be the targets?

    •  Ahem. did it occur to you that the bad guy had (0+ / 0-)

      bullets? Check reliable news sources. Geez.

      2012-2016 President Obama, Vice President Biden, Senator Warren. For a LIFETIME, federal judges. Get the filibuster changed. Steamroll.

      by CuriousBoston on Mon Apr 22, 2013 at 04:17:59 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Considering they had other bombs (0+ / 0-)

    And guns, I think that locking down the city was the right thing to do. It may have saved more lives.

    It's not that bad having everyone stop what they are doing and paying attention. About the only way to do it was by locking things down.

    Women create the entire labor force. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Sympathy is the strongest instinct in human nature. - Charles Darwin

    by splashy on Sun Apr 21, 2013 at 03:31:44 PM PDT

  •  As always LaFeminista (0+ / 0-)

    you hit the proverbial nail on the head.

     Yes---- this could have been handled better.

    Mayan Word For 'Apocalypse' Actually Translates More Accurately As "Time Of Pale Obese Gun Monsters."......the Onion

    by lyvwyr101 on Sun Apr 21, 2013 at 06:02:18 PM PDT

    •  It would be nice... (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      lyvwyr101, kenlac

      if I could unambiguously say that the situation was handled great, fine with some obvious areas for improvement, or poorly.

      However, the fact of the matter is that I can't.  I don't have enough knowledge to make that call and I'm pretty sure that applies to most/all of us, nor do I have the subject matter expertise to render that analysis.  Not even close to unambiguously.

      Could the situation have been handled differently. Sure.  Would that constitute better? Who knows.  I sure know that I don't.

      Given the current state of affairs,  

      Yes---- this could have been handled better
      seems a remarkably glib statement.
  •  My observations (0+ / 0-)

    1. The one break was all the video taken at the scene, which meant that the considerable amount of media and right wing speculation only got to run for a week.

    2. The average doofus has no idea what or where Chechnya is.

    3. The MSM (and the Republicans, but they're always like that) have a huge vested interest into turning this into 9/11.  (This is painfully obvious with CNN.)  But it's domestic terrorism, and the gun culture worked the same way it would have with Christian fundamentalists.

    4. The above notwithstanding, most of the tactics used by the eastern MA cops made some degree of sense, adjusted for the disarray caused by the MSM and the rather bizzare way the whole thing came down.  It seems that they relied on traditional police tactics and not all the Patriot Act bullshit to find them.

  •  I think it was handled extremely well. (0+ / 0-)

    Having lived in Massachusetts my entire left and have watched the marathon from many vantage points over the years, I think things were handled extremely well.

    I am not sure where you live or where you read or watched news on it, but I go no such impression.

    Our state and Federal law enforcement did a brilliant job,

    Our local news coverage was excellent. The response at the site of the explosion by bystanders, medical teams and law enforcement was nothing short of inspirational. All who were taken to area hospitals alive have survived. Many of them lost one or more limbs.

    I won't get into graphic details of what the carnage at the seen but I recall a number of interviews form some of the survivors. One gentleman was asked about his injuries and he stated that he was lucky. 4 of the 5 friends that he was standing with lost limbs in the explosion. I won't even go into the young victims..

    The law enforcement official involved did not rush to judgment. In fact they cautioned that no one should make any assumption on who perpetrated the crime. They also displayed an amazing candor and humility when the asked for the public help on identifying the suspect. It appears that help from the public was very instrumental in identifying and catching them.

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