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Comment Preferences

  •  Right now, just now nt (10+ / 0-)

    Streichholzschächtelchen

    by otto on Mon May 13, 2013 at 03:15:28 PM PDT

  •  This is a lovely sentiment, and was fun to watch (7+ / 0-)

    but many of the people interviewed are zombies. I cannot believe the general lack of awareness. Of anything.

    I resent that. I demand snark, and overly so -- Markos Moulitsas.

    by commonmass on Mon May 13, 2013 at 03:16:23 PM PDT

    •  I disagree (10+ / 0-)

      I though the vast majority of those people were being honest and reasonable.

      A surprising number were on point. And others admitted that they had been presented with an interesting question that challenged their viewpoints.

      That's pretty admirable if you ask me. They at least have enough awareness to recognize a new and different way of thinking about something important.

      "We forward in this generation, triumphantly."

      by Grizzard on Mon May 13, 2013 at 03:24:32 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I agree (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        JeffW, commonmass, Gardener in PA

        they seemed universally open and reasonable.

        I would also say that something as complex as human sexuality doesn't necessarily boil down to a binary switch.  And we know that genetics can in part be affected by environment so one suspects that in fact there may be some nurture in the expression of one's sexuality that isn't purely nature.

        That of course doesn't mean sexuality is a "choice" it just means some of those folks may have been poorly expressing something that isn't totally inaccurate.

        At any rate, they all seemed like reasonable honest folks, and none of them seemed particularly anti-homosexual or strongly wedded to their views, well, except the ones who were on the right side of the issue.

    •  What I find great about it (0+ / 0-)

      Is not a single one failed to conclude the obvious once the personal question was put.

      400ppm : what about my daughter's future?

      by koNko on Tue May 14, 2013 at 06:21:02 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  "Gay people choose to be gay." (11+ / 0-)

    "When did you choose to be straight?"
    "I didn't, I was always that way."
    "Do you think it's the same for gay people."
    "Probably, you make a good point."

    Come on people. Do you really have such a lack of intellectual curiosity that you never thought about this once in your entire life? How can you say it was a choice, without wondering why you didn't choose your sexuality?

  •  when my bisexual roommate told me (4+ / 0-)

    that when I brought a girl home he did not know of whom to be jealous?

    Seriously, that did happen.

    But I never chose, i just was.

    "We didn't set out to save the world; we set out to wonder how other people are doing and to reflect on how our actions affect other people's hearts." - Pema Chodron

    by teacherken on Mon May 13, 2013 at 03:22:31 PM PDT

  •  This works well with Iraqis (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    inclusiveheart, koNko

    and other refugees.  We use this in refugee training.  

    Makes sense.  Who among us didn't find it a little strange and unnerving being suddenly interested in the opposite sex?  You go from being 11 or 12 and rational, to 13 or 14 with these intense crushes, and anyone with a little self-awareness has to ask him/herself what the hell's going on here?

    “If the misery of the poor be caused not by the laws of nature, but by our institutions, great is our sin.” Charles Darwin

    by ivorybill on Mon May 13, 2013 at 03:22:57 PM PDT

    •  It is sort of funny that so many little (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      unclebucky, ivorybill

      boys go through that phase where they just LOATHE girls.  

      It is almost a wonder that such a high percentage of boys ultimately find themselves liking girls, at all.  ;)

      All I remember about that 11 to 14 time of my life was that everything shifted around and everyone was on unsure footing with respect to sexuality.  I don't think anyone escaped the confusion that came along with that shift.  

      One friend of mine was openly gay when we were 12-14 before we went to high school - and while he found acceptance with me and others, we didn't have a clue what straight was much less what being gay meant.  He died of AIDS by the time we were in our early 20's.  We had lost touch, but I always felt like we let him down somehow even though we didn't know anything - or better stated enough to be helpful to him.  

      •  Your friend (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        inclusiveheart

        probably didn't think you let him down... having friends who care about you when you are a teenager, particularly at that time, and don't judge you for being a little different - effeminate, or geeky, or whatever - that's an incredibly valuable thing.  Kids in high school today hear anti-gay slurs 27 times a day, and three in four kids who get bullied for being gay are actually straight. If you were someone who wasn't teasing him, treated him like a human being, that alone is affirmation enough.  I'm not sure of your age, but probably we went through high school in the late 70's or early 80's when being gay was still something unfamiliar and maybe uncomfortable but not as stigmatizing as even a decade earlier. By college, it was pretty routine - at least for me, at least in the early-mid 80's - there were lots of students who were lesbian or gay.  What opened my eyes was when a close friend was the victim of very severe domestic violence by her partner, and how isolated she was when that happened.  She couldn't tell her family in Oklahoma that she was living with another woman, she was embarrassed for what she was going through, and all the whole power and control stuff that we learn about later in domestic violence was not not something I'd expected or even considered between two women.

        “If the misery of the poor be caused not by the laws of nature, but by our institutions, great is our sin.” Charles Darwin

        by ivorybill on Mon May 13, 2013 at 04:14:03 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  My little life at that time played out in SF. (0+ / 0-)

          His short life did too.

          I think it was easier not to be judged in that city, but no less confusing because we were all so confused.  And it was the late 70's and he was seeing older men - which was another thing we probably should have been more "judgmental" about, actually - because that part was not okay and what, I think, probably led him to the most damaging and ultimately deadly phase of his life.  

          He rejected his family or they rejected him - we do not know which or if it was effectively both - I know his family mourned his death and felt his loss - but I don't really know how they lost each other initially.  I only know that we all lost him.

          It is a story I don't tell very often because the reality is that he was preyed upon by older men at a very young age and I am loathe for people to confuse male predators with gay men.  What I think I was able to learn from that experience among others growing up in SF at that time was that allowing people to be openly gay and making sure that they were accepted was healthier for our society.  The predators always have a hard time hiding when we are open about how we define consensual adult sexual relationships.  If that makes any sense.

          •  It makes absolute sense (0+ / 0-)

            because the vulnerability to exploitation by older men is so much greater when a kid loses his/her family support, when s/he ends up in a survival sex situation.  

            I also suspect that internalized homophobia - listening to all those horrible messages and all the shame - would make a kid like your friend more vulnerable and less able to push back and obtain the sort of equal, reciprocal relationship that we all need.  I certainly saw it in my friend in that DV situation - had she been more comfortable in her own skin and less infected with rural Oklahoman values, she might have been able to negotiate herself a saner and healthier relationship earlier.  She did survive - visited her a couple years ago and now she's got two kids and a sane wife and a good life.

            “If the misery of the poor be caused not by the laws of nature, but by our institutions, great is our sin.” Charles Darwin

            by ivorybill on Mon May 13, 2013 at 04:38:24 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

  •  Something I think I finally understand? (0+ / 0-)

    that's about what i wrote earlier today

    LINK

    "We didn't set out to save the world; we set out to wonder how other people are doing and to reflect on how our actions affect other people's hearts." - Pema Chodron

    by teacherken on Mon May 13, 2013 at 03:23:24 PM PDT

  •  That has been my argument for years. (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    flumptytail, unclebucky

    I have asked that question several times. Always gets that deer-in-the-headlights look.

    Welcome To The Disinformation Age!

    by kitebro on Mon May 13, 2013 at 03:23:34 PM PDT

  •  Introspection is a very rare commodity. n/t (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    flumptytail, RichM, unclebucky, bythesea

    "Give to every other human being every right that you claim for yourself." - Robert G. Ingersoll

    by Apost8 on Mon May 13, 2013 at 03:25:07 PM PDT

  •  I must be slow.... (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    flumptytail, unclebucky, bythesea

    on the uptake! I never thought of turning the question on its head. When did I choose to be straight?. Well, gosh when did I choose to have brown hair...oh yeah someone talked me into it when I was 12...those damn brown hair proseletyzers!

  •  Holy crap (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    unclebucky, bythesea, scott5js, drmah

    The right wing idiots have their hair on fire today.

    BENGHAZI! IRS!

    IMPEACH OBAMA!

    This is starting to feel like the right wing feeding frenzy that they started with the Clinton's in the 90's.

    ------"Load up on guns, bring your friends. It's fun to lose and to pretend."------- Kurt Cobain

    by Jeff Y on Mon May 13, 2013 at 03:32:20 PM PDT

  •  We always assume (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    SheilaKinBrooklyn

    , even if only "subconsciously", our experiences are universal, it's a holdover from our mental development imho. We edit our points of view to be tailored to our experiences which reinforces our points of view etc etc etc.

    Calling someone on this this way is old, I did it in texas in the 90's when I was in school over there. I don't think it'll change the mind of any bigot but anything that gets the cognitive ball rolling is good, regardless of where it rolls too.

    Nicht durch Zorn, sondern durch Lachen tödtet man. ~Nietzsche

    by somewierdguy on Mon May 13, 2013 at 03:34:00 PM PDT

  •  why would anyone (0+ / 0-)

    choose to be gay when you have to deal with people like this that have chosen to be ignorant assholes, its genetic people its genetic!

  •  If there's a bright spot coming from the (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    bythesea, scott5js

    shenanigans exposed in DC this week, it could be that Civil Libertarians will gain some political traction. It's far past overdue.

  •  meantime, Fox News host wants to know: (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    unclebucky, FogCityJohn, JeffW, antirove

    ‘Is Malia Obama going to go on birth control?’

    Was this question ever posed by the media when Jenna and Barbara were "First Daughters"?

    no, I didn't think so

    "Show up. Pay attention. Tell the truth. And don't be attached to the results." -- Angeles Arrien

    by Sybil Liberty on Mon May 13, 2013 at 03:51:28 PM PDT

    •  Somehow I think that any date arriving... (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Khun David

      at the White House will have Papa Obama waiting for him before he comes in the door.

      Not to mention Mama Obama and Mrs. Robinson (Malia's Grandmother) looking him over and whispering...

      That young fellow had better have an insurance policy if he thinks he is going to do anything beyond hand holding or conversation. :D

      IMHO, but I think I am right! The Obamas are the modern Father Knows Best family! hah!

      --UB.

      "Daddy, every time a bell rings, a Randian Libertaria­n picks up his Pan Am tickets for the Libertaria­n Paradise of West Dakota!"

      by unclebucky on Mon May 13, 2013 at 03:57:13 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  For me, it was when I saw those nude (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    bythesea

    pictures of Mr. Limbaugh.

    •  Don't try to put him in our camp! (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      bythesea, scott5js

      We gay guys have enough problems as it is.  Rush Limbaugh isn't playing for our team, thank God.

      "Ça c'est une chanson que j'aurais vraiment aimé ne pas avoir écrite." -- Barbara

      by FogCityJohn on Mon May 13, 2013 at 04:09:21 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  'The Solicitor' (0+ / 0-)

      A video about an ace lawyer in Los Angeles and a junior lawyer at their firm. Senior shows junior a video where he is interviewed  by one Butch Limbo. Lots of talk about representing famous people, womanizing, etc. Butch closes on saying how refreshing it is to talk with a fine, upstanding heterosexual male.
      The junior lawyer asks the senior one for advice on making out with the fair sex. Maybe a few subtle signs that this is not what junior is really wondering about.
      The senior lawyer stays late in his office and 2 cleanup guys arrive. He observes from another room that thet start having sex. He keeps on watching. He looks in a mirror and senses that he is not so str8 after all.
      The show ends with Butch Limbo back on the screen. He is fretting that the 2 lawyers have formed a new partnership and new law firm. Their specialty: gay rights.

      Censorship is rogue government.

      by scott5js on Mon May 13, 2013 at 06:44:30 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  My parents chose me to be, aprpoximately 9 months (0+ / 0-)

    prior to my birth, and was told later that brandy may have played a part?
    I''m pretty cool with all that.

    Living the austerity dream.

    by jwinIL14 on Mon May 13, 2013 at 04:13:37 PM PDT

  •  SEKRET CONSPIRACY: "born gay, see" = benghazi (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    scott5js

    Now it all makes sense, Obama's secret agenda cannot be stopped. God help us all.

  •  Great, just great. (0+ / 0-)

    The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt. Bertrand Russell

    by accumbens on Mon May 13, 2013 at 05:06:54 PM PDT

  •  The maddest I ever made my Father (0+ / 0-)

    Was when I asked him how long he had considered being gay?  When he asserted being gay was a choice.  He was a Fortune 500 Labor Attorney and he turned bright red with rage, the only time in my life I saw him turn that color.

    I did good that day :)

    "My name's Dr. Multimillionaire and I kicked your ass." --Rep. Steve Kagen D-WI to Karl Rove

    by walja on Mon May 13, 2013 at 05:39:03 PM PDT

  •  Born this way. Straight as a ruler. (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    JeffW

    But very friendly!

    "Republicans are poor losers and worse winners." - My grandmother, sometime in the early 1960s

    by escapee on Mon May 13, 2013 at 05:59:03 PM PDT

  •  I'd say age 5 or 6. (0+ / 0-)
  •  here's what i legitimately dont understand (0+ / 0-)

    i'll preface this comment by saying: i don't think anyone is gay or straight, I think there's a tendency to one or the other, but otherwise there's some gradient of bisexuality that covers everyone.

    In my own family I've got an uncle who had a family and kids and then years later says he's gay and lives a different lifestyle.

    my question is: if you're gay, that is, sexually attracted to men and not women, how the hell do you get with a woman, get aroused, have sex, etc.? doesn't the ability to do that disqualify you as a gay?

    I can't imagine, as a man, just being with a man and being able to have sex with him for years because of societal pressure and then turn around and say "okay, i'm gonna have sex with women now."

    And on the same page, I bet you every "straight" guy out there would get erect and enjoy oral sex from a man.

    So I think most people are bisexual, and depending on how things develop as a kid you get tendencies to be sexually attracted to men and women in different ways. So it's not a "choice", consciously, but a development from within the environment.

    But I think it's absurd to phrase this issue as a gay/straight one, when everyone is basically bisexual to different degrees (why, for example, are women more likely to be openly bisexual? because it's socailly acceptable and learned behavior in their environment!!)

    Then again, if you find the gene that determines whether someone will be legitimately sexually attracted to the same gender, then none of this analysis really matters. But that has not been found.

    Deficits don't matter, jobs do.

    by aguadito on Tue May 14, 2013 at 12:58:57 AM PDT

    •  How does a gay man copulate with a woman? (0+ / 0-)

      Same way I copulated with my ex-boyfriend. Closed eyes and imagination, and self-delusion that I was actually happy.
      So no, it doesn't "disqualify" you from being gay. It's a self-identification thing, anyway. You can't really point at someone and say, "you were married to a lady for ten years! You can't be GAY!"

      Also, have you ever heard of the Kinsey scale?
      http://en.wikipedia.org/...

      "We need institutions and cultural norms that make us better than we tend to be. It seems to me that the greatest challenge we now face is to build them." -Sam Harris, neuroscientist

      by MarthaPeregrine on Tue May 14, 2013 at 09:54:38 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  it just doesn't make sense to me (0+ / 0-)

        because I personally can't imagine myself having sex with a guy for 10 years just to maintain a facade.

        and yes i'veh eard of the kinsey scale, which is why I think it's dumb to view sexuality as just gay/straight.

        Deficits don't matter, jobs do.

        by aguadito on Tue May 14, 2013 at 04:36:57 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Well, it doesn't have to make sense (0+ / 0-)

          So long as people live and let live, doesn't matter if they don't understand everything about each other I suppose.

          "We need institutions and cultural norms that make us better than we tend to be. It seems to me that the greatest challenge we now face is to build them." -Sam Harris, neuroscientist

          by MarthaPeregrine on Tue May 21, 2013 at 09:17:57 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

  •  I was talking w/ my very conservative friend once (0+ / 0-)

    She believed that sexual orientation IS a choice, and I asked, "Well when did you choose to be straight?" And she replied with "Junior high."

    Obviously I was taken aback. She explained that she had seriously thought about it, and concluded she was straight.

    I now think she either did some self-appraisal and realized she wasn't attracted to women, therefore she was choosing to be straight, or maybe she HAD felt some attraction at some point, but was going to ignore it for the sake of her religious beliefs.

    Either way, I had no comeback at the time.

    "We need institutions and cultural norms that make us better than we tend to be. It seems to me that the greatest challenge we now face is to build them." -Sam Harris, neuroscientist

    by MarthaPeregrine on Tue May 14, 2013 at 09:50:04 AM PDT

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