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Night Owls
This actually appeared as an op-ed for the New York Times. From previous Times editor Bill Keller, no less.
Republicans are howling for President Obama to name a special prosecutor to investigate the Internal Revenue Service’s targeting of Tea Party groups. The president should call their bluff.

The president should announce that he has told the Justice Department to appoint an independent investigator with bulldog instincts and bipartisan credibility. The list of candidates could start with Kenneth Starr, who chased down the scandals, real and imagined, of the Clinton presidency.

That has to be a joke, right? Sadly, it doesn't seem so, as the rest of the column is devoted to the premise that Obama can diffuse Republican notions of scandal by appointing a special counsel to do some serious work getting to the bottom of it all, and somehow the nationally famous penis-chaser "Kenneth Starr" would be a fine upstanding someone to do that job, allowing the rest of government to get back to the business of governing. (All right, now I am seriously thinking the entire column was put up as a ruse, an Onionesque parody of what the dumbest imaginable bastard in all of politics might put up as an opinion column, in which case: Well played, indeed.)

Ken Starr and the unending hunt for something, any something at all, that would require impeaching the opposition-party president was the exact moment all of American politics went to hell and stayed there. Politics was always partisan: The Starr investigation made it stupid. Politics was always stupid, at least on the outskirts: The Starr investigation turned the stupidity into a mainstream and celebrated thing. It canonized conspiracy-peddling as the defacto Republican method of governance. It gave a podium to every liar, crook, asshole, ambulance chaser, tin foil hat aficionado, and black helicopter watcher, and all the top-name Republicans in Washington came up to give them a big, sticky hug. It was one of the first things that was supposed to be worse than Watergate, and in a very real way, it was. Watergate and Iran-Contra were actual crimes conducted by sitting administrations. Whitewater was the attempt to bring down an elected president regardless, cart before horse.

It started off with obscure Arkansas land deals, wound its way through fringe theories of Hillary-as-murderer or Bill-as-drug-trafficker, and eventually settled in on a sexual favor as being the thing that was reason enough. It was the ur-outrage that plotted out how all future outrages would be plotted and peddled in Republican circles. It was retribution for Watergate and Iran-Contra, two monstrous acts by Republicans, via the industrialized construction of a new "scandal" as payback. What it was really about never mattered, and blew with the winds, and nobody blew like Ken Starr and his leak-o-matic investigation of anything and everything that crackpots brought to his ear.

It was, as I said before, the exact moment all of American politics went to hell. The press, in a constant attempt to prove their own fealty to anyone who would piss anything that the public would pay a quarter to read, slit its own wrists on a daily basis to let what was left of their integrity drain out. The GOP moved from any pretense of being policy-minded into an all-outrage, all-the-time model channeled first through Drudge and later turd-polished by Fox News into the vapid, nonsensical, eternally shouting propaganda that now defines all of conservatism. It was the very moment the sound and the fury started to signify nothing, and then less than nothing.

After the episode, though, even Republicans distanced themselves from Ken Starr. The impeachment business itself ended as a flop, a humiliation for the GOP, and was met with retribution from an angry electorate that wasn't keen on being played for the dimwits and chumps the GOP apparently thought them to be. The one group that Starr never seemed to lose favor with, though, was the pundit class. The same walking balloons of tittering media nothingness that pumped the "scandal" through all of its varied, silly iterations never did seem to internalize the lesson or feel shame over it. Even now, the old hands seem wistful. Remember back when we didn't have to do anything but wait for the phone to ring with the latest "leak?" Remember when we all got to talk about sex on the teevee and, for once, pretend we were serious? Remember that, the one time in history when our only true talent, the only thing we were ever truly good at, gossiping about pointless drivel with no pesky policy implications or choices to be made or facts to look up, was the driving force behind our very lives—no, our very professions? Remember when Bill was the root of all evil, and Hillary was the scheming mastermind behind eighty percent of everything that ever happened—back when scandals were good, and by that I mean, not so goddamn boring?

Sometimes, when the wind is still, you can still hear them wistfully sobbing for those good old days. Still, though, you almost never saw someone bring up the name Ken Starr after that with an actual, serious proposal that he be brought back to do all of that nonsense again. Even in the worst, most vapid hollows of the press, that's a new one.

To quote Peggy Noonan, who blew a gasket on the I.R.S. in the Wall Street Journal, “This is not about the usual partisan slugfest. This is about the integrity of our system of government and our ability to trust, which is to say our ability to function.” If that’s the case, both parties should stand aside and let a special counsel determine if what happened was criminal, or just dumb. Meanwhile, we have some governing to do.
Good God.



Blast from the Past. At Daily Kos on this date in 2005Karzai Shoots Back:

After being the subject of a critical story emanating from Washington regarding the drug trade in Afghanistan, Afghani President Hamid Karzai shot back:
President Hamid Karzai today demanded justice for Afghan prisoner abuse by American interrogators, and he blamed the United States and Britain, not his government, for the slow progress of anti-drug efforts in his country. He also said he would ask President Bush for greater control over Afghan affairs as part of a longer-term strategic partnership.

. . . Mr. Karzai underscored cooperation with the United States, but also insisted that Afghans' sense of independence and self-reliance was growing. "No Afghan is a puppet, you know," he said in a Fox News interview. "There is a stronger ownership of the Afghan government and the Afghan people now."

It remained unclear how much his criticisms were intended for Afghan consumption, or whether his meeting with Mr. Bush might be rendered less comfortable than past such encounters, which have generally been portrayed as relaxed and amicable.

His comments, nonetheless, came at a delicate and unexpectedly contentious moment, a day after Mr. Karzai had expressed dismay over reports of abuses of Afghan prisoners - "it has shocked me thoroughly," he said Saturday in Kabul - and as Mr. Karzai's help in eradicating opium poppies in Afghanistan was being questioned by the United States.


Tweet of the Day:

if fossil fuels didn't have near-religious significance to the GOP, Fox would be calling KeystoneXL "a bailout to a Canadian company."
@sethdmichaels via web




On today's Kagro in the Morning show, Greg Dworkin on why there aren't more "safe rooms" and basements in homes in "Tornado Alley." More GunFAIL & passive voice. A note from alpaca farmer on one of the key arguments once made against a Utah bill to mandate alerting parents of armed teacher in their kid's classroom. And the guy quoted in support of armed teachers, whose argument rested on the extra protection of the permitting process, once lobbied to repeal the permitting requirement entirely! Plus, he's actually been on my GunFAIL list before! Moving on, more facts about tax-exempt political groups, and discussion of a possible "nuclear option" on filibusters.



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Comment Preferences

  •  Yesterday, when I was young (12+ / 0-)

    I learned about a terrific singer, whose birthday is today, MAY 22.

    I honor him here

    "We didn't set out to save the world; we set out to wonder how other people are doing and to reflect on how our actions affect other people's hearts." - Pema Chodron

    by teacherken on Wed May 22, 2013 at 08:31:33 PM PDT

    •  Beautiful (5+ / 0-)

      When someone is impatient and says, "I haven't got all day," I always wonder, How can that be? How can you not have all day? George Carlin

      by msmacgyver on Wed May 22, 2013 at 08:54:05 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  May 22 was Wagner's birthday (3+ / 0-)

      He was born 22 May 1813 in Leipzig.
      I have recordings of 11 of his operas, and I decided to play parts of them. I started with 'Rienzi', which could be called his last non-Wagnerian opera. I played the overture (fairly well-known) and the ballet music (not well known). Wagner more or less disowned it but still it was popular in the 19th century. I don't know that the Metropolitan has ever performed it. My recording is by the Dresden Staatsoper, from the days of East Germany.
      Then I played 'Siegfried Idyll.' Not an opera, but it uses music from the Ring operas.
      Finally I played Act I of 'Die Walkuere', the Ride of the Valkyries, and the finale with the Magic Fire Music.
      When I was 12 or 13 someone gave my folks an old 78 recording of Act I of 'Die Walkuere.' It has very moody music, tells of how a love affair buds between Siegmund and his sister Sieglinde. The lure of the forbidden! Sieglinde, after this opera ens, dies giving birth to Siegfried, who is in the 2 sequels.

      Censorship is rogue government.

      by scott5js on Wed May 22, 2013 at 11:28:04 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I went to one Wagner opera - and (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        helpImdrowning

        despitre Siegfried (at Covent Garden), can say that I have had enough Wagner to last me several lifetimes.  Tastes differ thank god, and you are welcome to every last semi-quaver..........

      •  Yes, Wagner can be lengthy ... (0+ / 0-)

        but I find it fascinating how his music evolves. I have sat through 'Parsifal' without getting bored. This was without following the story. The way the music evolves takes much time, so Act I of 'Die Goetterdaemmerung' and Act III of 'Die Meistersinger' are longer than some operas.
        I have collected a wide variety of classical music, so I am not just a Wagner fan. I am not Adolf Hitler. I have bought up Wagner's operas because I do not get much of a chance to hear them on the radio. I have only 2 of Verdi's operas and 3 of Puccini. I listen to Wagner from time to time, and most of the time I listen to other music.
        I would call Wagner an expert at grandeur and a genius at narrative music. I do see his limitations.

        Censorship is rogue government.

        by scott5js on Thu May 23, 2013 at 07:30:50 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  Stewart and The Truth Pretzel Factory tonight. (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Jeff Y, Aunt Pat, stagemom, helpImdrowning

    Golly, gee whiz, weren't they cute?

    The Great Awakening Is Afire! Think outside the box or remain mundane.

    by franklyn on Wed May 22, 2013 at 08:32:02 PM PDT

  •  WaPo's Glenn Kessler covers Jonathan Karl's ass (18+ / 0-)

    Glenn Kessler wouldn't recognize a "fact" if it walked up to him and broke a beer bottle over his head.

    WaPo Fact Checker: 3 Pinocchios For Claim Of ‘Doctored’ Benghazi Emails

    Washington Post fact checker Glen Kessler on Tuesday examined the controversy over Benghazi emails the White House released last week, dishing out "three pinocchios" to the administration's claim that Capitol Hill Republicans "doctored" quotes to "smear the president."

    Kessler sides with ABC White House correspondent Jon Karl, who in March wrongly attributed quotes from White House officials that were based on "summaries," by chalking up the inconsistency as a simple transcribing error. To that end, Kessler says that other reporters at CBS and the Weekly Standard similarly based their stories on notes taken of the actual emails. After Karl's colleagues at CBS and CNN called into question the material he obtained, he apologized for the error but maintained that the story "entirely stands."

    http://livewire.talkingpointsmemo.com/...

    ------"Load up on guns, bring your friends. It's fun to lose and to pretend."------- Kurt Cobain

    by Jeff Y on Wed May 22, 2013 at 08:34:43 PM PDT

  •  I thought Starr had fadeded into well deserved (10+ / 0-)

    obscurity as the answer to Trivial Pursuit or third tier quiz shows.  Please say it ain't so and they are not about to unleash a Zombie Starr investigation.

  •  Sweatin' to the Oldies (6+ / 0-)

    Tomorrow a PA church will open up a sports camp designed to sweat the gay away and Pottersville mainstay Cyril Blubberpuss weighs in (heavily) with a story out of his family's past.

    JP
    http://welcomebacktopottersville.blogspot.com

    Defending bad taste and liberalism since 2005.

    by jurassicpork on Wed May 22, 2013 at 08:38:54 PM PDT

  •  Bad, Bad Yoga (16+ / 0-)

    http://www.nbcnews.com/...

    An instructor testifying in a lawsuit filed over the Encinitas school district's yoga program demonstrated some basic poses inside a San Diego courtroom Wednesday.

    At issue: are yoga poses religious in nature and can schools offer yoga instruction as part of its physical education program without promoting the religion or spirituality behind the practice?

     Judge John S. Meyer heard testimony this week regarding Ashtanga yoga and a curriculum established within the Encinitas Union School District where students practice yoga as P.E.

     The district established its yoga program with a $500,000 grant from the K.P. Jois Foundation. The hope was that yoga would help the elementary school students focus on studies, keep them calm and may even curb bullying.

     All nine schools in the district are currently participating in the program.

     However some parents objected when the program was launched in the fall of 2012. After complaining to the district, opponents sued claiming the classes are being used to indoctrinate children and "spread the gospel" of Ashtanga yoga. The plaintiffs want yoga classes suspended immediately.

    When someone is impatient and says, "I haven't got all day," I always wonder, How can that be? How can you not have all day? George Carlin

    by msmacgyver on Wed May 22, 2013 at 08:39:56 PM PDT

  •  Ken Starr? Really, Mr. Keller? (8+ / 0-)

    Has there been a bigger headline-grabbing, big-hat, no-cattle, partisan, thoughtless, and arrogant special prosecutor in the history of the nation?

    Maybe Keller is replicating the same joke Starr pulled on the country.

  •  Absurd ideas with Starr aside, (0+ / 0-)

    Noonan was spot on with this:

     “This is not about the usual partisan slugfest. This is about the integrity of our system of government and our ability to trust, which is to say our ability to function.”

    Although I don't think an IC is necessary. A full instigation is.

    But there is some crazy like a fox genius is Starr. If HE found nothing there would nothing left for the RW to even pretend to point at.

    •  You seem to be under the impression (18+ / 0-)

      Republicans might eventually be satisfied, if only someone with the right amount of "credibility" finally determines there's really "nothing to see here."

      I beg to differ.

      They'll just keep looking for somebody who WILL find something that validates their suspicions.




      Somebody has to do something, and it's just incredibly pathetic that it has to be us.
      ~ Jerry Garcia

      by DeadHead on Wed May 22, 2013 at 08:52:28 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  An IC for what? (11+ / 0-)

      The only so-called "crime" here is the fact that some Teabagger POLITICAL groups, who were posing as Social Welfare groups to get tax free status, had their applications approved when they should have been denied.

      ------"Load up on guns, bring your friends. It's fun to lose and to pretend."------- Kurt Cobain

      by Jeff Y on Wed May 22, 2013 at 08:52:33 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  You are way off base (0+ / 0-)

        They were ID'd because of political terms applied to them.Then they were found to be OK. But only after delays and extra scrutiny. It would be wrong for us. it is wrong for them.

        •  You're way off base (9+ / 0-)

          Political groups on both sides of the aisle were targeted, and the only group that had their application denied was a liberal group.

          http://www.bloomberg.com/...

          ------"Load up on guns, bring your friends. It's fun to lose and to pretend."------- Kurt Cobain

          by Jeff Y on Wed May 22, 2013 at 10:02:55 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Nope, you are still way off base (0+ / 0-)

            Those three were not "targeted" because of their liberal sounding words. The conservative groups were specifically targeted due to the words used to search for them. And since the 3 groups you refer were not approved, they have no beef. The conservative groups are all approved- but only after being subjected to delays and extra hassles.

            Get your facts straight. Read the IG report.

            •  I'd bet you that if I put the phrase (4+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Eric Nelson, Jeff Y, DeadHead, DRo

              "I hate the IRS and the Government of the US and protest their right to levy any form of taxation upon me" at the top of each page of my tax forms, I'd get some extra scrutiny from the IRS as well.

              "Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." - John F. Kennedy -7.8., -6.6

              by helpImdrowning on Wed May 22, 2013 at 10:16:50 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  How do you know those three liberal groups (4+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              helpImdrowning, Ender, DeadHead, JeffW

              weren't targeted? And how do you know they don't have a beef now?

              Puleeease, you're just making up shit now.

              And again, I repeat, ALL of the conservative groups were approved. Every single stinking one of them.

              ------"Load up on guns, bring your friends. It's fun to lose and to pretend."------- Kurt Cobain

              by Jeff Y on Wed May 22, 2013 at 10:31:42 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Read the report (0+ / 0-)

                Then get back to me. You are the one making stuff up.

                No liberal terms were used to ID groups. Conservative terms were used. I am not appalled that conservative groups were targeted I am appalled that ANY political bias was used by the IRS.

                Yes they were all approved, meaning there was no reason to delay them in the first place.

                •  I already provided you with proof (0+ / 0-)

                  of liberal groups being targeted.

                  You're running around in circles now.

                  ------"Load up on guns, bring your friends. It's fun to lose and to pretend."------- Kurt Cobain

                  by Jeff Y on Thu May 23, 2013 at 10:39:53 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  No you didn't (0+ / 0-)

                    "a" liberal group was examined and asked to clarify. They were not one of hundreds purposefully targeted with biased search terms that resulted in delays for years. You aren't running in circles but you are definitely spinning.

                    •  Try reading the whole article (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      JeffW

                      That liberal group wasn't asked to "clarify", they were denied their application.

                      I'm done wasting time on you, Slick. Your right wing, crackpot conspiracy theorist pals are over at Redstate, not here.

                      ------"Load up on guns, bring your friends. It's fun to lose and to pretend."------- Kurt Cobain

                      by Jeff Y on Thu May 23, 2013 at 03:17:49 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  I am sorry that facts (0+ / 1-)
                        Recommended by:
                        Hidden by:
                        Jeff Y

                        make your world uncomfortable. Read the report. No liberal groups were "targeted". They had to clarify their applications and were denied. Unlike the opposite that happened with conservative groups which were targeted and got approved. My point is and has been that political bias against any group via the IRS is unacceptable, and so many here either do not know the facts of the case or more appalling, do not care.

                        Not sure which one you fall in to, but I guess name calling is all you have left.

                        •  The entire story is about liberal groups being (0+ / 0-)

                          targeted, you fucking moron. Hell, even Daily Kos was audited last year.

                          I'm done here. I'm tired of kicking your ass.

                          Like I said before, RedState is over there, Biff. Get lost. ------------------------------------------------------------>>>>

                          ------"Load up on guns, bring your friends. It's fun to lose and to pretend."------- Kurt Cobain

                          by Jeff Y on Thu May 23, 2013 at 08:37:06 PM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  please, (0+ / 1-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Hidden by:
                            Jeff Y

                            Give a single iota of any evidence that liberal groups were "targeted". A single group found their application lacking and was not approved. That is not being "targeted".

                            Hundreds of applications were systematically "targeted" because of the conservative sounding words in their names.

                            IF I cures I;d call you that expletive moron as well.

                            you have not kicked anything but your own denial.

                            BYW, do you eat with that mouth?

                            If you have ANY evidence to the contrary please present that to me. The article does not.

                          •  iota this, right wing assclown (0+ / 0-)
                            In a statement late yesterday, the tax agency said it had pooled together the politically active nonpartisan applicants -- including a “minority” that were identified because of their names. “It is also important to understand that the group of centralized cases included organizations of all political views,” the IRS said in its statement.

                            http://www.bloomberg.com/...

                            ------"Load up on guns, bring your friends. It's fun to lose and to pretend."------- Kurt Cobain

                            by Jeff Y on Thu May 23, 2013 at 08:59:49 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  OK you got me (0+ / 0-)

                            3 liberal groups were looked at. Wow, 3, not 300 conservative groups. Three. it's all equal now.

                            under pressure after admitting it targeted anti-tax Tea Party groups for scrutiny in recent years, also had its eye on at least three Democratic-leaning organizations seeking nonprofit status.

                            Assclown indeed. Sleep well.

                          •  When the name of your so-called (0+ / 0-)

                            'social welfare organization' stands for 'Taxed Enough Already', you deserve to be targeted. That's what the IRS is supposed to do,

                            ------"Load up on guns, bring your friends. It's fun to lose and to pretend."------- Kurt Cobain

                            by Jeff Y on Thu May 23, 2013 at 10:08:13 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Really dude? (0+ / 0-)

                            That is not what "they the IRS is supposed to do". You are Ok when the IRS decides that they can arbitrarily target groups because of their political affiliation? Wow. Nixon would be proud.

                            And again, the fallacy is that these groups did nothing to warrant the delay. Conservative (or liberal) sounding names aren't supposed to bring the wrath of the IRS upon you.

                            The IRS is not supposed to target anyone based on their opinions, which is what they did. They are supposed to enforce the tax code fairly and objectively. That's why heads are rolling now.

                          •  Yes, really, dude (0+ / 0-)

                            This whole "scandal" is complete crap.

                            The IRS was reviewing political organizations funded by big money donors (Koch bros, et al.) who were attempting to illegally not disclose their donors. The IRS was inundated with these applications, and used common sense to flag applications that were obviously shell political organizations posing as "social welfare organizations".

                            These Teabagger idiots got caught trying to game the tax system and are now complaining that they got caught using targeted methods.

                            Perhaps if they didn't try to subvert the system first and basically commit tax fraud none of this would have happened.  

                            ------"Load up on guns, bring your friends. It's fun to lose and to pretend."------- Kurt Cobain

                            by Jeff Y on Fri May 24, 2013 at 01:52:28 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  You are absolutely wrong (0+ / 1-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Hidden by:
                            Jeff Y

                            1- You say "The IRS was reviewing political organizations funded by big money donors". You have any proof of that?  That is NOT how the use of conservative terms came to be used. In fact we have no idea WHO'S idea it was. In fact most of these orgs were budgets in single thousands. Small potatoes.

                            2- "he IRS was inundated with these applications, and used common sense to flag applications" No. As I have repeatedly pointed out. The use of these politically biased terms was implemented BEFROE the rise in applications began.

                            3- "were obviously shell political organizations posing as "social welfare organizations"." No again, as they all got approved, even after the unnecessary extra scrutiny.

                            4- "These Teabagger idiots got caught trying to game the tax system" Got caught how? When? Where?

                            Man I'm glad the URS admits their problem, I can't see why you won't.

                          •  All of these Tea Party groups that sprouted up (0+ / 0-)

                            seeking 501(c)(4) status were frauds. They weren't doing anything illegal, although it should be illegal.

                            The 501(c)(4) designation is for groups that can be fairly described as “social welfare organizations” or “local associations of employees.” Your average Tea Party group is neither of those things.

                            When you start describing anti-tax fanaticism as 'social welfare', you've allowed everything to be social welfare. "We're a social welfare group that tries to deny people access to health care!"

                            The other thing about 501(c)(4) groups is that they have to be for-profit and they can't have a primarily political purpose. Does that sound like a Tea Party group to you?

                            Maybe if the Republicans funded the IRS at an adequate level and didn't deluge them with bogus tax-avoidence schemes, the agency wouldn't feel compelled to take short cuts.

                            Now please do us all a favor and go fuck yourself, you right wing hack.

                            This case is closed.

                            You lost.

                            Go back to Planet Wingnuttia, troll boy.

                            ------"Load up on guns, bring your friends. It's fun to lose and to pretend."------- Kurt Cobain

                            by Jeff Y on Fri May 24, 2013 at 08:45:41 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  HA HA HA (0+ / 1-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Hidden by:
                            Jeff Y

                            You are so amazingly lame. Reconcile:

                            All of these Tea Party groups that sprouted up (0+ / 0-)
                            seeking 501(c)(4) status were frauds
                            .

                            with:

                            They weren't doing anything illegal,
                            Holy cow, that is amazing... I am tying to figure that out.

                            "Republicans' don't fund the IRS

                            The targeting of conservative names began before any increase in applications.

                            In other words, while there was an increase in 2010, it was relatively small. The real jump did not come until 2011, long after the targeting of conservative groups had been implemented. Also, it appears Lerner significantly understated the number of applications in 2010 (“1500”) in order to make her claim of “more than doubled.”
                            You would think that someone so adamant in their olin would have a fact or two to back that up. nit the case.

                            And by the way, do you eat with that mouth? And I am sure your mother taught you better manners than to resort to vulgarity when you lose an argument.

                            If you ever, and I mean ever,  care to present a single solitary fact in this debate please let me know. Otherwise read and wise up.

                          •  They also weren't denied their applications (0+ / 0-)

                            Now get lost troll.

                            ------"Load up on guns, bring your friends. It's fun to lose and to pretend."------- Kurt Cobain

                            by Jeff Y on Fri May 24, 2013 at 10:39:23 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  And by the way, assclown (0+ / 0-)

                            If you think I'm going to accept without question the word of the idiot who calls himself a 'fact-checker' (Kessler) at WaPo (the same idiot who just claimed that Jonathan Karl did nothing wrong re WH e-mails), you're more delusional than I thought you were.

                            See ya!

                            ------"Load up on guns, bring your friends. It's fun to lose and to pretend."------- Kurt Cobain

                            by Jeff Y on Fri May 24, 2013 at 10:48:53 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Right (0+ / 0-)

                            just take your word for it. Your inability to accept reality os bizarre.

                            How about this then assclown?

                            And that they weren't denied their apps is MY point. They were targeted for no rational reason. Can you read and think? Or did mommy make you get off the computer before you finish sounding out the big words?

                          •  Why should we be surprised (0+ / 0-)

                            that the IRS takes special attention to the tax forms of you Teabagger morons? Judging from the terrible spelling on your protest signs, attention to detail isn’t really your thing.

                            ------"Load up on guns, bring your friends. It's fun to lose and to pretend."------- Kurt Cobain

                            by Jeff Y on Sat May 25, 2013 at 01:19:30 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  can you please read (0+ / 0-)

                            or get your mommy to read to you? This has all been explained. They were singled out excuse of politics, which is not OK> for anyone.

                            I'll ask you Why WOULD the IRS have any reason to single them out?

                            And don't call me names just because you can't read or think.

                      •  What "conspiracy"? n/t (0+ / 1-)
                        Recommended by:
                        Hidden by:
                        Jeff Y
            •  To steal another analogy from (4+ / 0-)

              another user here (forgot who it was):

              Let's say I have a couple of bumper stickers on my car like:

              I FUCKING HATE COPS
              LOVIN' THIS FAT DOOB I'M SMOKIN'

              I should probably expect some flashing red and blue lights behind me at some point, no?




              Somebody has to do something, and it's just incredibly pathetic that it has to be us.
              ~ Jerry Garcia

              by DeadHead on Wed May 22, 2013 at 10:56:36 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

        •  The delay was ineffectual in that they (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          DeadHead, Don Quixote, JeffW

          could behave as if they had been approved until they weren't, if they were to be denied.
          What the Cons don't get is that probity is the norm. That is, there is a presumption that people are entitled to the permits they request until it is found that they aren't. Approval is the default. In the Cons' mind, the default is denial. That is, they assume something is denied until it is approved. They've got the sequence reversed. It happens in regard to criminal fault, as well. The Cons do not understand the presumption of innocence, either. At best, they consider it a hypothetical starting point for a trial. Putting the cart before the horse seems to relate to a common way of thinking on the part of some people and is an error that is well recognized in common parlance, but often ignored by otherwise smart people. That order or sequence are not necessarily perceived by some people seems difficult to comprehend by people who see it. It may have something to do with a sense of time as a linear process.

          We organize governments to deliver services and prevent abuse.

          by hannah on Thu May 23, 2013 at 03:34:05 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  Wait.....What? (13+ / 0-)
      Noonan was spot on with this: “This is not about the usual partisan slugfest. This is about the integrity of our system of government and our ability to trust, which is to say our ability to function.”
      Srsly? Noonan has never been spot on about anything.

      "The scientific nature of the ordinary man is to go on out and do the best you can." John Prine

      by high uintas on Wed May 22, 2013 at 09:01:49 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Mister T is the proud owner of NR status. (6+ / 0-)

        I don't think the T stands for terrific. ifyaknowhadimean.

        "Go well through life"-Me (As far as I know)

        by MTmofo on Wed May 22, 2013 at 09:22:11 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  You think it is OK for (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        jec

        the IRS to target groups because of politics?

        •  Yawn (9+ / 0-)

          Benghazi sputtered out, so Republicans are moving all their chips over to the IRS thing.

          Yes, I think the Tea Party trying to pass themselves off as a social welfare organisation to get out of paying the taxes normally collected from the type of political group they REALLY are can be given a questionaire.




          Somebody has to do something, and it's just incredibly pathetic that it has to be us.
          ~ Jerry Garcia

          by DeadHead on Wed May 22, 2013 at 09:41:18 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Can you reply to my question? (0+ / 0-)

            The IRS has already admitted it was wrong to ONLY target the conservative groups.

            Plus if they WERE not on the up and up they would not have had their papas approved (albeit after a 2 year delay and extra hassles on their part).

            So, why would you defend the biased and unnecessary practice that the IRS itself and the President says was inappropriate?

            •  Here's a better question: (4+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Ender, Sue B, JeffW, high uintas

              Why the fuck are you fighting this battle here?

              I don't give a fuck what the president said. I told you how I feel about it.

              If the president had NOT taken the action he did, you would have found fault with THAT, right?

              So what do you want from Daily Kos?

              If you're looking for some kind of mass Mea Culpa, you're gonna be waiting a long time.




              Somebody has to do something, and it's just incredibly pathetic that it has to be us.
              ~ Jerry Garcia

              by DeadHead on Wed May 22, 2013 at 10:40:12 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  I am appalled (0+ / 0-)

                that people would defend these actions of the IRS and call themselves progressive. But at least you say it is a "feeling" and no logic. I hope "feel" good if it ever happens to our side.

                •  You are talking about big money (0+ / 0-)

                  political groups complaining about a fucking questionaire for fucks sake. Groups that HATE TO PAY TAXES are rightly looked at a little closer for the possibility THAT THEY ARE ACTING ON THEIR HATRED FOR PAYING TAXES.

                  Are you worried about the IRS targeting you because you have a 'T' in your username? Is that it?




                  Somebody has to do something, and it's just incredibly pathetic that it has to be us.
                  ~ Jerry Garcia

                  by DeadHead on Thu May 23, 2013 at 03:20:50 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Answer a question or two (0+ / 0-)

                    Have you read the report? Actually it is self evident you haven't. The groups were delayed for almost three years in getting their status conformed. And spent extra time money and resources on MUCH more than simple questionnaires.

                    Do think it is OK for the IRS to target ONLY one end of the political/opinion/ideological groups and not others  - without any indication they are fraudulent?

                    What makes you think the IRS should just determine that the name Patriot means "hates paying taxes"?

                    Will you be OK when it happens to liberal groups instead of conservative ones?

                  •  PS (0+ / 0-)

                    These were not Big money groups. If you look at them they were nearly all small time operations. Here is just a sample.

                    The Colorado groups affected are universally small and self-defined as grassroots. Their budgets are mostly in the single thousands of dollars a year and mostly derived from dues-paying members. They said in interviews with The Denver Post that they hold picnics and forums and try to recruit neighbors to hear about conservative ideas and philosophy.
                    You may want to get some facts rather than knee jerk to conclusions that confirm your opinions.
                    •  Whatever (0+ / 0-)
                      Since 2009, the Tea Party Patriots, a large national umbrella group, has claimed no fewer than 3,500 affiliates. Many applied for nonprofit status with the IRS, a prime reason the agency was so overwhelmed with applications. The people leading these groups were often neophytes politically and organizationally—or, as Dan Backer, a lawyer for TheTeaParty.net, explained in an interview with Mother Jones this week, "they didn't understand the complexity of what's involved."

                      Other tea partiers were part of a constellation of right-wing groups that seek to make money with fundraising appeals for conservative causes. And finally, some high-profile tea party leaders wrestled with personal tax problems before trying to start new political organizations.

                      Whether the IRS focused on any specific groups for any of these reasons is not clear. But here are some examples of these groups and why the IRS might have wanted to take a closer look at them:

                      True The Vote/King Street Patriots: True the Vote was among the active conservative groups that sought to police the polls during the 2010 and 2012 elections to root out alleged voter fraud. The group was created by the King Street Patriots, a Houston-based tea party organization and a 501(c)(4). But True the Vote is a 501(c)(3), a tax-exempt designation that allows a group's donors to write off their contributions but also has strict rules prohibiting electioneering and partisan political activity. True the Vote and King Street share board members and often co-sponsored events. [...]

                      link




                      Somebody has to do something, and it's just incredibly pathetic that it has to be us.
                      ~ Jerry Garcia

                      by DeadHead on Thu May 23, 2013 at 10:50:31 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

        •  They won't when the shoe is on the other foot. (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          high uintas
        •  Do you think it's OK to target special prosecution (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          helpImdrowning, high uintas

          because of politics.

          You don't seriously think this is about the po' little Tea Party getting their rights trampled?

        •  The IRS is correct to put scrutiny on (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          JeffW, high uintas, Calamity Jean

          groups claiming the be "social welfare" organizations, thus to enabling them to keep the identity of their donors secret, if there is sufficient reason to believe that the primary purpose of the organizations is political.  By giving themselves names that align with political rabble rousers (i.e., Tea Party, Patriots, etc.), such groups invite scrutiny until the facts are known.  (I assure you, if they gave themselves the name "Occupy" they'd be in for the same kind of scrutiny.)  Once they proved themselves NOT to be primarily political, they were given the status they requested in their applications.  

          With the budget cuts to the IRS, and with the floodgates that the criminal SCOTUS decision, Citizens United, opened up, it's completely understandable that overworked, understaffed IRS employees would use shortcuts to get their task accomplished.

          "Why reasonable people go stark raving mad when anything involving a Negro comes up, is something I don’t pretend to understand." ~ Atticus Finch, "To Kill a Mockingbird"

          by SottoVoce on Thu May 23, 2013 at 03:36:40 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  None of that is accurate (0+ / 0-)

            The terms they used to target groups were only on the rw side.

            The use of these terms predated increase in applications

            That all applications were eventually approved indicates there was no reason to treat them differently in the first place.

            There are no excuses for subjective and arbitrary treatment by the IRS no matter who it is.

        •  Yes (0+ / 0-)

          The mistake was that the IRS was lazy. It's easy when an organization uses names like "Tea Party Patriots" and such, harder when they use "Americans For A Better Future" "Progress For America".

          They picked the easy ones, they should have dug deeper and picked all political tax shelter scams, left and right. They are a curse on our body politic.

          "The scientific nature of the ordinary man is to go on out and do the best you can." John Prine

          by high uintas on Thu May 23, 2013 at 11:49:02 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Actually (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            high uintas

            The 'easy ones" turned out to be innocent. I hope it was laziness. And after the investigation I hope the problem can be identified and rectified.

            I agree with:

            They picked the easy ones, they should have dug deeper and picked all political tax shelter scams, left and right.
            But I would say ALL a curse.
            They are a curse on our body politic.
      •  Not true. Noonan can usually get the gin to (3+ / 0-)

        her mouth with hardly any spillage.

        "George RR Martin is not your bitch" ~~ Neil Gaiman

        by tardis10 on Wed May 22, 2013 at 11:18:02 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  Lois Lerner always seemed fishy to me (0+ / 0-)

      Even more so when she took the fifth, today.

      Her first action was to apologize for things that I don't think that the IRS did.

  •  This is awesome (13+ / 0-)
    14 yr old girl covers Eddie Van Halen's 'Eruption' solo:

    ------"Load up on guns, bring your friends. It's fun to lose and to pretend."------- Kurt Cobain

    by Jeff Y on Wed May 22, 2013 at 08:46:41 PM PDT

  •  Impeachment Won the 2nd American Revolution. (5+ / 0-)

    It led to GW Bush's selection and on to the tea party.

    If you can find a universe where Bush lost the post impeachment election in America, my expert recommendation is leave ours and go there.

    We are called to speak for the weak, for the voiceless, for victims of our nation and for those it calls enemy.... --ML King "Beyond Vietnam"

    by Gooserock on Wed May 22, 2013 at 08:49:44 PM PDT

  •  Keller (11+ / 0-)

    I saw that and thought, no, he's not serious, right?

    Between this and the obsession with Assange, he's done some really weird things in the last few years.  And not that I'm the greatest writer, but I didn't spend my career writing, I spent it in science and technology, but... in addition to being really strange, the writing is  of really bad quality, IMHO.  

    As for the NYT... they print this stuff!

    I think that Bill Keller needs to find a hobby.


    "Justice is a commodity"

    by joanneleon on Wed May 22, 2013 at 08:55:39 PM PDT

  •  Tin Foil Hats, pfft… (7+ / 0-)

    Tin Foil hats are for Yankee conspiracy theorists, in the southern tier of this country the finest conspiracy theorists only wear armadillo hats.

    Union-printed, USA-made, signs, stickers, swag for everyone: DemSign.com.

    by DemSign on Wed May 22, 2013 at 08:56:33 PM PDT

  •  67 (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    JeffW, Ender

    "We didn't set out to save the world; we set out to wonder how other people are doing and to reflect on how our actions affect other people's hearts." - Pema Chodron

    by teacherken on Wed May 22, 2013 at 09:03:15 PM PDT

  •  So very wrong (3+ / 0-)

    http://www.nbcnews.com/...

    The Department of Defense confirms to NBC 5 Investigates that accused Fort Hood shooter Major Nidal Hasan has now been paid more than $278,000 since the Nov. 5, 2009 shooting that left 13 dead 32 injured. The Army said under the Military Code of Justice, Hasan’s salary cannot be suspended unless he is proven guilty.

    If Hasan had been a civilian defense department employee, NBC 5 Investigates has learned, the Army could have suspended his pay after just seven days.

    Personnel rules for most civilian government workers allow for "indefinite suspensions" in cases "when the agency has reasonable cause to believe that the employee has committed a crime for which a sentence of imprisonment may be imposed."

    Meanwhile, more than three years later soldiers wounded in the mass shooting are fighting to receive the same pay and medical benefits given to those wounded in combat.

    When someone is impatient and says, "I haven't got all day," I always wonder, How can that be? How can you not have all day? George Carlin

    by msmacgyver on Wed May 22, 2013 at 09:03:47 PM PDT

  •  the godfather of investibators: $ + Onanism /nt (3+ / 0-)

    Warning - some snark may be above‽ (-9.50; -7.03)‽ eState4Column5©2013 "I’m not the strapping young Muslim socialist that I used to be" - Barack Obama 04/27/2013

    by annieli on Wed May 22, 2013 at 09:05:17 PM PDT

  •  IRS? Ken Starr? Christ..I gotta pick the kids up!n (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    doinaheckuvanutjob

    The Great Awakening Is Afire! Think outside the box or remain mundane.

    by franklyn on Wed May 22, 2013 at 09:05:27 PM PDT

  •  Dems could have stood up for LGBT & Leahy's.. (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    JeffW, helpImdrowning

    ..amendment.

    Pam's House Blend - By: Laurel Ramseyer Wednesday May 22, 2013 10:15

    Following months of threats and pressure by some Republican members of the Senate Judiciary Committee, Chairman Patrick Leahy (D-VT) announced today he is withholding amendments to the immigration bill that would end discrimination against lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender (LGBT) immigrant families. In recent weeks, GOP Senators Lindsey Graham, Jeff Flake, Marco Rubio, and John McCain have sought to scapegoat LGBT families, promising to abandon immigration reform entirely if it was amended to include LGBT protections.
    Dems are (at least could be)  in a postion of strength on the immigration issue but by the sound of this you'd think it was the GOP that was in charge
    Sen. Diane Feinstein said of the LGBT-inclusive amendment that the Democrats refused to move:
    "Like Sen. Hirono’s amdt, we know this is going to blow coalition apart … Don’t want to lose Sen. Graham’s vote."
    arrggh

     I like Laurel Ramseyer's take on it. She asked the better question:

    What if the Democrats had said “Sen. Graham will lose Democratic support for the Comprehensive Immigration Reform bill if we don’t include same-sex binational couples“?  I guess we’ll never know.
    Dems should have stood up and refused to codify discrimination into immigration reform.

    And from a purely political standpoint republicans need immigration reform much more than Democrats.

    Call the GOP bluff from now on imo

    P.S.: it's good that immigration reform has passed a hurdle, but with this kind of negotiating what will the RWNJ house do to it?

  •  My weather diary gets no love (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Eric Nelson, DeadHead, helpImdrowning

    You should check it out just for the lightning photo at the end.

    http://www.dailykos.com/...

    •  T + R for ya. (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      helpImdrowning, Ender

      Sometimes the diaries with the most graphs and detail don't get the attention they deserve.

      I've had similar experiences on occasion.

      Thanks for posting it, and I'm quite happy to have NOT been on the receiving end of that lightening bolt. ;)




      Somebody has to do something, and it's just incredibly pathetic that it has to be us.
      ~ Jerry Garcia

      by DeadHead on Wed May 22, 2013 at 09:58:54 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Thanks for reading! and the T+R! (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        DeadHead
      •  I lived in Orlando once.We had daily thunderstorms (4+ / 0-)

        You get used to it. People would just point up in the air when they were trying to talk, but you couldn't hear them because of all the thunder.

        I saw a video clip where scientists were studying lightning in Orlando by launching rockets into a thunderstorm. The ionized gas in the rocket exhaust would conduct the electricity back to their launch site.

        Since any model rocket leaves a trail of ionized gas, I was thinking that you could go to the store and buy a lot of raw chicken, steak, fish, etc. and put it in a ring around the launch pad.

        You could do a week's worth of cooking in a second!

  •  First thing that comes to mind (6+ / 0-)

    when I hear the name Kenneth Starr: Susan McDougal.

    "The human eye is a wonderful device. With a little effort, it can fail to see even the most glaring injustice." Richard K. Morgan

    by sceptical observer on Wed May 22, 2013 at 09:12:21 PM PDT

  •  GOP has opened up a new front:anti-abortion groups (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    stagemom

    I diaried about this here.

  •  the teaparty application was approved. (4+ / 0-)

    what is all the fuss about?
    and as stephen colbert said, the didn't even HAVE to submit an application.
    this is so dumb.

    "A dollah makes me hollah"-- Stephen Colbert, pretending to be S. Palin

    by stagemom on Wed May 22, 2013 at 09:42:10 PM PDT

  •  I'd bet... (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    tardis10, JeffW

    ...that even Ken Starr thinks this is a stupid idea.

  •  Man, this ... (3+ / 0-)
    The same walking balloons of tittering media nothingness that pumped the "scandal" through all of its varied, silly iterations never did seem to internalize the lesson or feel shame over it.
    You sir, have a fucking way with words. And I only add the expletive because I feel like you have a better way with words than most people who, uh, have a way with words. Or something like that.
  •  I just booked my train ticket Seattle to San Jose (4+ / 0-)

    for Netroots Nation. With stop off for a night in Portland on the way down.

    "If Wall Street paid a tax on every “game” they run, we would get enough revenue to run the government on." ~ Will Rogers

    by Lefty Coaster on Wed May 22, 2013 at 10:26:12 PM PDT

  •  That was really cool. (3+ / 0-)

    We had a talk on fair trade tonight at UCLA with someone from the coffee world and someone from the chocolate world, with a free tasting afterwards.  :-)

    And we're holding Ecochella this Friday, which will be a bike-powered concert!!

  •  They've identified... (5+ / 0-)

    the person who jumped off the engineering building yesterday here at UCLA as a library employee.

  •  Just amazed at the lack of concern over the (0+ / 0-)

    scandals coming to surface. I guess, since the polling hasn't shown it yet we can all bury our heads in the sand. This Administration is the worst Democratic Administration in my lifetime. And for you young folks that want to praise them as the best thing since sliced bread, I'd suggest that you read up on the constitution.

  •  Beautifully written. (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    JeffW, Calamity Jean

    With

    ...walking balloons of tittering media nothingness...
    You are entering Charles Pierce territory.

    Obama is the Chickenshit-in-Chief for failing to stand up to Republicans on all their phony scandals, from the "beer summit," to Van Jones, "death panels," Shirley Sherrod, contraception, Benghazi, and the IRS.

    by expatjourno on Thu May 23, 2013 at 12:53:37 AM PDT

  •  If what Peggy Noonan says is true...?????? (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Don Quixote

    Keller actually said that? Amazing. Kinda revealing about the level of his intellect, and not in a good way.

  •  Guilt is a contrary emotion. (0+ / 0-)

    We assume it leads people to reform their lives and make necessary changes. It doesn't.  As often as not it leads people to do the same thing over and over again, as if to prove it wasn't wrong in the first place. Combine that with being habit-prone and the result is stupidity multiplied.

    The problem with Watergate is that in resigning, Richard Nixon validated that the President is not above the law; that his first assessment that "when the President does it, it's not a crime" was wrong. Nixon agreed that the passage of the Federal Tort Claims Act, which stripped public officials of the sovereign immunity they had clung to since colonial days, was a sea change. If the President could no longer act or order actions with impunity, then all subordinate office holders are similarly individually liable to being subordinate to the law, as the prosecution and imprisonment of William J. Jefferson proved again just a few years ago. In that case, though it was trotted out by the leadership in the House, the claim to immunity from prosecution for what public officials say and do in carrying out their duties was found not to apply to what they store in their freezers, if the loot was ill-gotten to begin with.

    The issue is the autonomy of public officials, whether they are, to put it succinctly, rulers or servants. Apparently, a goodly number of the people who run for Congress do so in the expectation that they will be giving orders, not doing what they are told or fulfilling the obligations of a job. The "unitary executive" was sort of their last best hope for a position upon which all blame/praise could be heaped without repercussions. In other words, the purpose of the President as front man was to relieve the Congress of responsibilities, rather than invest the presidency with new powers. In the binary mind, powers and obligations are antagonistic forces, so, to enhance power, obligations must be shed.
    What Bush/Cheney have managed to demonstrate, so far, is that the executive is immune from being prosecuted for negligence. This is significant because most of the prosecutions under the Federal Tort Claims Act have been civil actions against public officials who failed to carry out their duties--i.e. to protect and provide for welfare.
    Given this context, what I'd argue is that the intent of the William Jefferson Clinton impeachment and trial was to prove, in a sense, that the President is above the law and a safe sacrificial lamb upon whom all opprobrium can be heaped without consequence. The impeachers planned to fail, as do those who are calling for impeachment now.
    See, in the binary mind, it is easy to be against what one is actually for because failure spells the success of what one wants.
    What authoritarians want is power without obligations. If they can slough off their obligations unto an impotent and incompetent executive, that suits their purposes precisely, because obligations not carried out are an opportunity to try and try again. Planning to fail is good because it promotes longevity in office and constancy. Planning to fail is a prescription for no change.
    People who plan to succeed find it very difficult to comprehend this alternative. People who just exist in the realm of ideas have no difficulty with it at all.

    We organize governments to deliver services and prevent abuse.

    by hannah on Thu May 23, 2013 at 03:15:41 AM PDT

  •  Hunter S. Thompson lives! (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    JeffW

    Such outrageous outrage, such -

    Wait  - Hunter???? Is that YOU?

  •  Here is a grim article about how low a person (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    DRo

    "Why reasonable people go stark raving mad when anything involving a Negro comes up, is something I don’t pretend to understand." ~ Atticus Finch, "To Kill a Mockingbird"

    by SottoVoce on Thu May 23, 2013 at 03:44:09 AM PDT

  •  Nailed. Viciously and beautifully. (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Calamity Jean
    The press, in a constant attempt to prove their own fealty to anyone who would piss anything that the public would pay a quarter to read, slit its own wrists on a daily basis to let what was left of their integrity drain out.

    If you want something other than the obvious to happen; you've got to do something other than the obvious. Douglas Adams

    by trillian on Thu May 23, 2013 at 03:53:38 AM PDT

  •  Wha' isn't there no safe rooms 'n' basemints in (0+ / 0-)

    TORnader Alley? 'Cause the LIBRULS tuck all the money fer it an' spint in on tryin' ta take our GUNS!

    'Sides: Ah'd lahk t' see a TORnader what kin stand up to mah howitzer!

  •  Some long distance bus companies (0+ / 0-)

    that you may not be aware of

    Omnibus La Cubana

    Going between Miami and NYC with stops at major points along the way

    http://www.lacubanabus.com/...

    There is also a Miami NYC bus service that goes through places such as Tampa Atlanta Charlotte

    http://www.lacubanabus.com/...

    The El Expreso Bus Company serves Texas and offers service between Mexico and Chicago and Raleigh, North Carolina:

    http://www.elexpreso.net/...

    The Tornado Bus Company also serves Florida points:

    FLORIDA
    Fort Myers

    3628 Washington
     (239) 332-0081

    Homestead

    436 S. Krome Ave.
     (855) 378-6678

    Plant City

    2203 W. Reynolds St.
     (813) 659-2901

    GEORGIA

    Atlanta / Doraville

    3658 A. Shallowford St.
     (770) 458-9218

    ILLINOIS

    Chicago

    2807 S. Kedzie
     (773) 247-3349

    Waukegan

    2067 Belvidere Rd.
     (847) 336-5038

    INDIANA

    Indianapolis

    8313 N. Michigan Rd.
     (317) 870-0070

    NORTH CAROLINA

    Raleigh

    4005 New Bern Ave.
     (919) 212-1448

    TENNESSEE

    Nashville
    4031 Nolensville Pike
     (615) 313-8843


    http://www.tornadobus.com/...
     

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