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  Edward Snowden's revelation is just the tip of the iceberg.

 Thousands of technology, finance and manufacturing companies are working closely with U.S. national security agencies, providing sensitive information and in return receiving benefits that include access to classified intelligence, four people familiar with the process said.
   These programs, whose participants are known as trusted partners, extend far beyond what was revealed by Edward Snowden, a computer technician who did work for the National Security Agency.

  So who are the companies? Pretty much every tech company worth mentioning.

 Makers of hardware and software, banks, Internet security providers, satellite telecommunications companies and many other companies also participate in the government programs. In some cases, the information gathered may be used not just to defend the nation but to help infiltrate computers of its adversaries.
 Of course since "adversaries" could mean anyone the government decides is suspicious, that pretty much means anyone.
 Microsoft Corp. (MSFT), the world’s largest software company, provides intelligence agencies with information about bugs in its popular software before it publicly releases a fix, according to two people familiar with the process.
 Of course Microsoft gave the NSA a backdoor into every operating system it has made since 1999 (long before 9/11), so this shouldn't surprise anyone.
    Time to switch to Linux.
 Some U.S. telecommunications companies willingly provide intelligence agencies with access to facilities and data offshore that would require a judge’s order if it were done in the U.S., one of the four people said.
   In these cases, no oversight is necessary under the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act, and companies are providing the information voluntarily.
Key word here: voluntarily.
   Remember when every single tech company denied the NSA spying right after Swoden's revelation? Now we find out that the government didn't even have to ask for the information. They were offering the information up.
 Intel Corp. (INTC)’s McAfee unit, which makes Internet security software, regularly cooperates with the NSA, FBI and the CIA, for example, and is a valuable partner because of its broad view of malicious Internet traffic, including espionage operations by foreign powers, according to one of the four people, who is familiar with the arrangement.
 Go to Linux and you won't need security software like McAfee.

  If you think the NSA is just about collecting information, think again. They share it with all the other intelligence agencies in the government.

  But hey, its all about national security, right? Right?

  Faulk says he and others in his section of the NSA facility at Fort Gordon routinely shared salacious or tantalizing phone calls that had been intercepted, alerting office mates to certain time codes of "cuts" that were available on each operator's computer.
   "Hey, check this out," Faulk says he would be told, "there's good phone sex or there's some pillow talk, pull up this call, it's really funny, go check it out. It would be some colonel making pillow talk and we would say, 'Wow, this was crazy'," Faulk told ABC News.
 Yea, that sounds like a case of national security to me. So you can trust the government to respect your privacy and not monitor phone calls it knows are innocent.
  NSA awarded Adrienne Kinne a NSA Joint Service Achievement Medal in 2003 at the same time she says she was listening to hundreds of private conversations between Americans, including many from the International Red Cross and Doctors without Borders.
   "We knew they were working for these aid organizations," Kinne told ABC News. "They were identified in our systems as 'belongs to the International Red Cross' and all these other organizations. And yet, instead of blocking these phone numbers we continued to collect on them," she told ABC News.
 And yet around 40% of Americans support being spied upon. Since the president, Congress, and the corporate news media aren't going to stand up for civil rights, I guess it requires a vocal minority of the people who still believe in the Constitution.
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Comment Preferences

  •  Tip Jar (157+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Youffraita, shopkeeper, Pluto, bobswern, chuckvw, Free Jazz at High Noon, sceptical observer, markthshark, George3, bula, Deward Hastings, koNko, Book of Hearts, DRo, Lovo, taonow, gulfgal98, deep info, One Pissed Off Liberal, kyril, northsylvania, blukat, Desolations Angel, RuralLiberal, Chi, temptxan, glitterscale, dkmich, katiec, profh, unclejohn, dance you monster, OutcastsAndCastoffs, ovals49, beverlywoods, Norm in Chicago, Dobber, Cassiodorus, Yellow Canary, Habitat Vic, Floande, Kristina40, hubcap, cosmic debris, bluedust, Loonesta, Stripe, bluesheep, blue91, triv33, catilinus, Ozymandius, Trendar, Tinfoil Hat, Sagebrush Bob, hyperstation, Dallasdoc, pat of butter in a sea of grits, MKinTN, petulans, emal, Rogneid, El Zmuenga, CroneWit, detroitmechworks, terabytes, also mom of 5, Dr Erich Bloodaxe RN, Clive all hat no horse Rodeo, pat bunny, MrBigDaddy, greenbastard, Meteor Blades, No one gets out alive, mkor7, SteveLCo, yet another liberal, 420 forever, OldDragon, Liberal Thinking, ActivistGuy, young voter, SeaTurtle, Friend of the court, Deep Harm, Sandino, J M F, Rick Aucoin, Panacea Paola, ek hornbeck, wonmug, USHomeopath, sunny skies, RJP9999, radical simplicity, EquationDoc, David Futurama, muddy boots, Aunt Martha, spacejam, lotlizard, JML9999, JDWolverton, native, CanyonWren, congenitalefty, quagmiremonkey, lunachickie, freesia, Kentucky Kid, StrayCat, run around, SuWho, happymisanthropy, Sun Tzu, Jim P, zerelda, enhydra lutris, Joieau, Blicero, PeterHug, AoT, MrJayTee, solesse413, countwebb, gooderservice, cardboardurinal, Teiresias70, Wolf10, Kombema, mconvente, shigeru, GrannyOPhilly, poligirl, Simplify, TheMomCat, Oaktown Girl, LaFeminista, jfromga, LucyandByron, Shockwave, SpecialKinFlag, wayoutinthestix, eru, Bluesee, Lost Left Coaster, greengemini, out of left field, madgranny, Isara, Possiamo, YucatanMan, grover, slatsg, SouthernLiberalinMD, greycat, Alumbrados

    “Wall Street had been doing business with pieces of paper; and now someone asked for a dollar, and it was discovered that the dollar had been mislaid.” ― Upton Sinclair

    by gjohnsit on Fri Jun 14, 2013 at 12:26:39 AM PDT

  •  Many among those 40% are our own yawners. (45+ / 0-)

    Add the median effective tax rate, healthcare costs (20%?), education costs, and other things guaranteed in Denmark & Sweden, we pay MORE for LESS. Somebody's gotta pay the billionaires. They don't grow on trees. ☮ ♥ ☺

    by Words In Action on Fri Jun 14, 2013 at 12:34:01 AM PDT

  •  I have just the thing they need! (38+ / 0-)
    Thousands of companies swap data with the NSA
    Your company's one-stop PRISM involvement denial statement generator.

    Go here and put in your company's name.

    That's all there is to it!

    It will put your customer's minds at ease.

    Dear [Company] users,

    You may be aware of reports alleging that [Company] and several other Internet companies have joined a secret U.S. government program called PRISM to give the National Security Agency direct access to our servers. We would like to respond to the press reports, and give you the facts.

    [Company] is not and has never been part of any program to give the US or any other government direct access to our servers. We have never received a blanket request or court order from any government agency asking for information or metadata in bulk, like the one Verizon reportedly received. We hadn't even heard of PRISM before yesterday.

    When governments ask [Company] for data, we review each request carefully to make sure they always follow the correct processes and all applicable laws, and then only provide the information if is required by law. We will continue fighting aggressively to keep your information safe and secure. Any suggestion that [Company] is disclosing information about our users’ Internet activity on such a scale is completely false.

    We strongly encourage all governments to be much more transparent about all programs aimed at keeping the public safe. It's the only way to protect everyone's civil liberties and create the safe and free society we all want over the long term. We here at [Company] understand that the U.S. and other governments need to take action to protect their citizens’ safety—including sometimes by using surveillance. But the level of secrecy around the current legal procedures undermines the freedoms we all cherish.



    Denial is a drug.

    by Pluto on Fri Jun 14, 2013 at 12:40:46 AM PDT

  •  Thousands of companies & 72 DHS Fusion Centers... (44+ / 0-)

    ...what could possibly go wrong?

    2011 Gov’t Report Confirmation: DHS, Banks Gathered Key Intel On OWS From Daily Kos, Other Sites

    The Wiki Page on Fusion Centers:

    FUSION CENTER
    From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    A fusion center is an information sharing center, many of which were jointly created between 2003 and 2007 under the U.S. Department of Homeland Security and the Office of Justice Programs in the U.S. Department of Justice.

    They are designed to promote information sharing at the federal level between agencies such as the Central Intelligence Agency (CIA), Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI), U.S. Department of Justice, U.S. military, and state- and local-level government. As of July 2009, the U.S. Department of Homeland Security recognized at least 72 fusion centers. Fusion centers may also be affiliated with an Emergency Operations Center that responds in the event of a disaster.

    The fusion process is an overarching method of managing the flow of information and intelligence across levels and sectors of government to integrate information for analysis.[1] That is, the process relies on the active involvement of state, local, tribal, and federal law enforcement agencies—and sometimes on non–law enforcement agencies (e.g., private sector) – to provide the input of raw information for intelligence analysis. As the array of diverse information sources increases, there will be more accurate and robust analysis that can be disseminated as intelligence.

    A two-year senate investigation found that "the fusion centers often produced irrelevant, useless or inappropriate intelligence reporting to DHS, and many produced no intelligence reporting whatsoever."[2][3]

    Contents

    Although the phrase fusion center has been used widely, there are often misconceptions about the function of the center. Perhaps the most common is that the center is a large room full of work stations where the staff are constantly responding to inquiries from officers, investigators, and agents. This vision is more accurately a watch center or an investigative support center – not an intelligence fusion center. Another common misconception is that the fusion center is minimally staffed until there is some type of crisis whereupon representatives from different public safety agencies converge to staff workstations to manage the crisis. This is an emergency operations center, not an intelligence fusion center. The fusion center is not an operational center but a support center driven by analysis.[1]

    Fusion process

    The fusion process proactively seeks to identify perceived threats and stop them before they occur. A fusion center is typically organized by amalgamating representatives from different federal, state, local, and tribal law enforcement agencies into one physical location. However, some fusion centers gather information not only from government sources, but also from their partners in the private sector.[4][5] Each representative is intended to be a conduit of raw information from his or her agency, a representative who can infuse that agency-specific information into the collective body of information for analysis. Conversely, when the fusion center needs intelligence requirements the representative is the conduit back to the agency to communicate, monitor, and process the new information needs.[1] Similarly, the agency representative ensures that analytic products and threat information are directed back to one’s home agency for proper dissemination. According to the fusion center guidelines, a fusion center is defined as “a collaborative effort of two or more agencies that provide resources, expertise, and/or information to the center with the goal of maximizing the ability to detect, prevent, apprehend, and respond to criminal and terrorist activity. The intelligence component of a fusion center focuses on the intelligence process, where information is collected, integrated, evaluated, analyzed, and disseminated. Nontraditional collectors of intelligence, such as public safety entities and private sector organizations, possess important information that can be fused' with law enforcement data to provide meaningful information and intelligence about threats and criminal activity.”[6]

    State and local police departments provide both space and resources for the majority of fusion centers. The analysts working there can be drawn from DHS, local police, or the private sector. A number of fusion centers operate tip hotlines and also invite relevant information from public employees, such as sanitation workers or firefighters.[7]

    Criticism

    There are a number of documented criticisms of fusion centers, including relative ineffectiveness at counterterrorism activities, the potential to be used for secondary purposes unrelated to counterterrorism, and their links to violations of civil liberties of American citizens and others.[7] One such fusion center has been involved with spying on anti-war and peace activists as well as anarchists in Washington State.[8]

    David Rittgers of the Cato Institute has noted

        a long line of fusion center and DHS reports labeling broad swaths of the public as a threat to national security. The North Texas Fusion System labeled Muslim lobbyists as a potential threat; a DHS analyst in Wisconsin thought both pro- and anti-abortion activists were worrisome; a Pennsylvania homeland security contractor watched environmental activists, Tea Party groups, and a Second Amendment rally; the Maryland State Police put anti-death penalty and anti-war activists in a federal terrorism database; a fusion center in Missouri thought that all third-party voters and Ron Paul supporters were a threat; and the Department of Homeland Security described half of the American political spectrum as "right wing extremists." [9]

    MIAC report

    Missouri Information Analysis Center (MIAC) made news in 2009 for targeting supporters of third party candidates, Ron Paul supporters, pro-life activists, and conspiracy theorists as potential militia members.[10] Anti-war activists and Islamic lobby groups were targeted in Texas, drawing criticism from the ACLU.[11]

    According to the Department of Homeland Security:[12]

        [T]he Privacy Office has identified a number of risks to privacy presented by the fusion center program:

            Justification for fusion centers
            Ambiguous Lines of Authority, Rules, and Oversight
            Participation of the Military and the Private Sector
            Data Mining
            Excessive Secrecy
            Inaccurate or Incomplete Information
            Mission Creep

    2009 Virginia terrorism threat assessment

    In early April 2009, the Virginia Fusion Center came under criticism for publishing a terrorism threat assessment which stated that certain universities are potential hubs for terror related activity.[13] The report targeted historically black colleges and identified hacktivism as a form of terrorism.[14]

    "I always thought if you worked hard enough and tried hard enough, things would work out. I was wrong." --Katharine Graham

    by bobswern on Fri Jun 14, 2013 at 12:42:42 AM PDT

    •  Oh, and just remember, it's only a "wiretap"... (57+ / 0-)

      ...if someone listens to it! That's according to the legal definition of the word, ya' know. So, the government would need an INDEX of all calls, in order to establish a workable database. Something akin to all of the call record metadata, which would then be used for search parameters for specific calls. Otherwise, the entire process of accessing call record(ing)s would be untenable. But, thank god, because the government is telling us this, they only have the metadata. (What hasn't been highlighted too much in coverage of this story is that "the metadata" contains ALL the GPS coordinates of all cell subscribers, too! This is a fact, by the way, since it includes the coordinates of the call[er]. WHO KNEW?)

      (Man, I'm gonna' miss all those movie scenes where the detective asks the suspect: ?"Where were you on the evening of June 14th, 2013, between the hours of 7 and 9PM?" Obviously, that'll no longer be a question, for ANY American to have to answer. Because it's all public knowledge.)

      Which is kind of strange when one realizes that all of the telcos/telecoms, when they were seeking immunity, insisted upon immunity for civil actions with regard to....wait for it...drumroll...WIRETAPS.

      But, as we all know, this is just a conspiracy theory. And, why is that? Because the government tells us they don't listen to calls, at least not without a warrant and/or subpoena; or, except when they claim they don't need a warrant and/or a subpoena, which is most of the time....

      On January 23, 2009, the administration of President Barack Obama adopted the same position as his predecessor when it urged U.S. District Judge Vaughn Walker to set aside a ruling in Al-Haramain Islamic Foundation et al. v. Obama, et al.[45] The Obama administration also sided with the former administration in its legal defense of July, 2008 legislation that immunized the nation's telecommunications companies from lawsuits accusing them of complicity in the eavesdropping program, according to testimony by Attorney General Eric Holder.[46]

      So, pay no attention to the 7 or 8 different folks who tell us this, because they're all out of their minds. Or, at least, that's what our government is telling us. And, we all know, that the government would never, ever, ever, ever lie to us.

      We should ignore  RUSSELL TICE

      Enter former NSA employee and whistleblower Russell Tice.

      This was the same week that Russell Tice appeared on Keith Olbermann (1/21/2009)

      And, we should ignore MARK KLEIN

      About six months prior to Russell Tice’s appearance on Olbermann, retired AT&T technician Mark Klein appeared on Nightline (see mention of Mr. Klein on the Wiki page on the NSA warrantless surveillance controversy

      Mark Klein on Nightline (6/19/2008)

      (Note: Please note Mark Klein’s comments just after the 7:00 mark in this video, where he references data-mining and its effect on record selection on captured calls at the switching station[s].)

      In 2011, according to a slew of information requests made by the American Civil Liberties Union (ACLU) of law enforcement organizations throughout the U.S., as noted in this NY Times lead story, “U.S. Law Enforcement Made 1.3 Million+ Surveillance Requests Of Cell Carriers In 2011.”

      At the very end of 2012, President Obama re-upped on warrantless wiretapping, per this January 9th, 2013 excerpt from Alex Kane, who noted this over at Salon.com

      Warrantless Wiretapping

      One of the enduring scandals of the George W. Bush years was that administration’s practice of wiretapping American citizens with no warrant in order to spy on suspected terrorists. TheNew York Times, which broke the story in 2005, reported that “months after the Sept. 11 attacks, President Bush secretly authorized the National Security Agency to eavesdrop on Americans and others inside the United States to search for evidence of terrorist activity without the court-approved warrants ordinarily required for domestic spying.” The move raised concerns that the Bush administration was crossing constitutional limits on wiretapping Americans.

      But the outcry from those concerned with civil liberties has largely been muted in the Obama era. In late December 2012, President Obama signed an extension of a law that allows the U.S. to “eavesdrop on communications and review email without following an open and public warrant process,” as NPR summed it up. The law was an extension of the 2008 law that legalized the Bush administration’s wiretapping of American citizens.

      As national security blogger Marcy Wheeler notes in a recent piece for the Nation, the president’s signature on the new bill on wiretapping means that the U.S. “has nearly unrestrained authority to eavesdrop on those who communicate with people outside the country. The government doesn’t even need to show that these foreign targets are terrorists or that the conversations center around a plot. This means any international communication may be subject to wiretapping.”

      And, we should also ignore TIM CLEMENTE

      In addition to his appearance in early May, last month, on CNN with Erin Burnett and renowned defense attorney Mark Geragos, former FBI counterterrorism expert Tim Clemente appeared the next evening on CNN to further elaborate upon his knowledge that virtually all digital records (which would include most phone calls) are warehoused by our government.

      Tim Clemente CNN (5/2/13)

      And, ignore Jim Bamford, Bill Binney, and a few other folks that are all telling us this, too.

      Because, as we all know, under the "tip of an iceberg," all that's there is just ICE.

      "Nothing to see here. Move along!"

      "I always thought if you worked hard enough and tried hard enough, things would work out. I was wrong." --Katharine Graham

      by bobswern on Fri Jun 14, 2013 at 01:06:43 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  most of what is going on (0+ / 0-)

        is not wiretapping

        Calling it that shows you don't understand what PRISM is doing

        In the time that I have been given,
        I am what I am

        by duhban on Fri Jun 14, 2013 at 04:40:37 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  you are pretending (6+ / 0-)

          that what has been disclosed is more than the tip of the iceberg.

          That is a ridiculous assumption.

          What are you doing to fight the dangerous and counterproductive error of treating dirtbag terrorist criminals as though they were comic book supervillains? I can't believe we still have to argue this shit, let alone on Daily Kos.

          by happymisanthropy on Fri Jun 14, 2013 at 10:00:47 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  I am only going to react to what I know (0+ / 0-)

            not what I think I know

            The only assumption here is yours and many others as to what 'the tip of the iceberg' actually means.

            In the time that I have been given,
            I am what I am

            by duhban on Fri Jun 14, 2013 at 01:26:03 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

        •  These claims are about more than just PRISM (6+ / 0-)

          From what I understand.

          If debt were a moral issue then, lacking morals, corporations could never be in debt.

          by AoT on Fri Jun 14, 2013 at 10:36:37 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  yes but what else is going on (0+ / 0-)

            is at best nebulously understand as to precisely what is happening.

            And I honestly refuse to rampantly speculate and give in to what I see as almost paranoid fantasizing as to what they government could be doing. I deal in what I know and what I can prove that's it.

            In the time that I have been given,
            I am what I am

            by duhban on Fri Jun 14, 2013 at 01:27:33 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  See, I think it's reasonable to speculate (3+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              YucatanMan, gjohnsit, bobswern

              on these things given that we have a government that has consistently lied about all of these programs. We know they've tapping into telcom lines and copied huge swathes of data. We don't know what they got. We probably never will. We don't know what they stored, and probably never will. What we have is a bunch of people in the government who are telling us again that this is just a little info. Every single time something is released it's worse than the government has said. Every time. At this point I think it's naive to simply say we don't know so we shouldn't assume the worst.

              We're talking about organizations whose job is to hide evidence, and you want proof. It just won't happen. I know we're not going to agree on this, but I just want to make clear that I don't see my position as paranoid, I see it as reasonable. I've always had a black humor streak and have joked at various times about people watching me or listening to me. All in good fun though. Now we've got a bit of evidence that this has been happening and we've still got people screaming about paranoia. I mean, it isn't like collecting and using this sort of information on Americans would be unprecedented. The government has done it plenty of times before. I'm not sure why this time is different.

              If debt were a moral issue then, lacking morals, corporations could never be in debt.

              by AoT on Fri Jun 14, 2013 at 01:50:53 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  I understand but respectfully disagree (0+ / 0-)

                I think it unreasonable and more over unresponsible to do so. It allows the conspiracy theorist on both sides of the idealogical divide to come out and present their 'reasonable' theories. It scares the crap out of people that don't percisely understand what is going on and perhaps most importantly it's just plain speculation.

                I don't like to speculate but that's just my education and mind set.

                In the time that I have been given,
                I am what I am

                by duhban on Fri Jun 14, 2013 at 03:52:43 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  At this point it's all conspiracy theories (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  gjohnsit

                  Even the people sticking to what we "know" like you. You just happen to believe the conspiracy theory that the government is telling.

                  I don't like to speculate but that's just my education and mind set.
                  At some point we need to if we're going to take action. And I think it's more than time to take action. Repealing the Patriot act is the first step, and I'm glad you agree on that one.

                  Either way, we're just going to disagree on what we can speculate on.

                  If debt were a moral issue then, lacking morals, corporations could never be in debt.

                  by AoT on Fri Jun 14, 2013 at 03:56:30 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  that's not true at all (0+ / 0-)

                    a conspiracy theory is a wild, paranoid 'theory' that has no backing in known fact.

                    Frankly I will take at least what is 'known' other wildly specualting.

                    In the time that I have been given,
                    I am what I am

                    by duhban on Fri Jun 14, 2013 at 05:23:55 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  By that definition I'm not (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      gjohnsit

                      talking about a conspiracy theory. I'm talking about a reasonable conjecture.

                      But you didn't mean me, did you?

                      If debt were a moral issue then, lacking morals, corporations could never be in debt.

                      by AoT on Fri Jun 14, 2013 at 05:42:14 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  you speaking in specific (1+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        AoT

                        have yet to offer anything even close to a CT, you are reasonable, civil and make an effort to talk.

                        That said we or at least I was not talking about just me or just you but the entire circus this has become.

                        When people act like the US has become like China when there is absolutely no evidence of that, that is a conspiracy theory. You can conjecture all you want just remember you are basically tapdancing on a thin sheet of ice with the unknown below you when you do.

                        In the time that I have been given,
                        I am what I am

                        by duhban on Fri Jun 14, 2013 at 08:15:38 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  China (0+ / 0-)
                          When people act like the US has become like China when there is absolutely no evidence of that, that is a conspiracy theory.
                           I get the feeling that your idea of China is radically different from reality.
                            And your idea of America is slightly different from reality.

                          “Wall Street had been doing business with pieces of paper; and now someone asked for a dollar, and it was discovered that the dollar had been mislaid.” ― Upton Sinclair

                          by gjohnsit on Fri Jun 14, 2013 at 08:42:02 PM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

      •  Bob--this needs a book length study (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        CroneWit, bobswern, YucatanMan

        Do you think that Obama's revised program precludes the things Tice was talking about?  Do you think they are still keeping content, but only getting warrants want they want to access it?

        He who would trade liberty for security deserves great customer service.

        by Publius2008 on Fri Jun 14, 2013 at 05:14:11 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Actually, all it needed was some hours doing... (15+ / 0-)

          ...online research. Like I've been saying, the info's all there, if you make an effort to look for it.

          It's quite common knowledge that the government's "Total Information Awareness" program was never terminated under Bush, despite kabuki to the contrary. It was merely renamed--into a group of programs--and parsed out to a handful of agencies. Generally speaking, a basic RESTRUCTURING.

          Obama merely inherited it; and, the general consensus is that he did expand it, too.

          Again, it is COMMON KNOWLEDGE in national security circles that this is what happened. And, the information IS readily available to any citizen that bothers to research it.

          It's not like we're revealing state secrets here, despite (hate overusing the term) kabuki to the contrary.

          "I always thought if you worked hard enough and tried hard enough, things would work out. I was wrong." --Katharine Graham

          by bobswern on Fri Jun 14, 2013 at 05:30:49 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  It's still not evident to me (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Joieau, AoT, lotlizard

            whether they are keeping (all) content or not.  Tice seems to be saying they are keeping content files on certain groups (including journalists), but not all citizens.

            At this point, my solution is the naming of an independent third party auditor with full access to find out what is really going on.  The agencies simply can't be trusted as they have been thoroughgoingly duplicitous about these programs from the very first.  

            However, whether anyone will ever be able to get beyond their shell games and deception is really an open question.

            He who would trade liberty for security deserves great customer service.

            by Publius2008 on Fri Jun 14, 2013 at 05:37:33 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  It's a POLITICAL issue, whether or not this... (12+ / 0-)

              ...is ever "confirmed." Therein lies the Catch-22.

              One or two of three things has to happen...

              1.) Another leak, with verifiable information/documentation
              2.) And, then the government confirms it
              Or...
              3.) Legislators, agency heads (senior officials) or the White House decide to just open up and admit matters on their own

              Alternatively, one may look at the FACTS, do some good old fashioned journalistic research, and get the story on their own.

              There's tremendous irony here. Under normal circumstances, if you have two credible sources confirming the story, you may (generally) run with it. In this instance, there are a bunch of quite unusual/extenuating circumstances, with not the least of them being that you're NEVER going to get official confirmation without someone putting their ass on the line.

              Of course, the ultimate irony is the "excuse" is being made that we're supposed to accept what we hear about this from government spokespeople who've been caught lying and omitting facts all along, up 'til now. So, we're supposed to buy into everything we're being spoonfed now...and that's a ridiculous joke....parrotted by many, even here.

              "I always thought if you worked hard enough and tried hard enough, things would work out. I was wrong." --Katharine Graham

              by bobswern on Fri Jun 14, 2013 at 05:58:40 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  Of course they are keeping (5+ / 0-)

              content. The "metadata" pen register stuff is what the telecoms keep - for certain lengths of time - so they can bill customers and play with data for making charts and graphs on traffic, use of other companies' towers, and other business-type statistic stuff for the shareholders in the annual reports. They do not monitor, record or store content as part of this, because not a single one of the telecoms has 40-story underground bunkers cryogenically cooled and chock full of millions of zetabytes of such data. The NSA (et al.) has that.

              So for the purposes of this spy game, the metadata would do the spies no good if they didn't have the content as well. It may take weeks before a person gets rounded up in a 'friends network' they're doing serious spying on, then they [say they] have to get the FISA court to issue a warrant that allows them to 'unzip' said content and have a human listen to the conversation. This would not be possible if the content were not part of the data-grab in the first place.

          •  Yup (4+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            gjohnsit, AoT, bobswern, YucatanMan

            It became the Rapid Knowledge Formation program, with pieces farmed out to various organizations. RKF uses exactly the same software and methodologies that were used in TIA, just the purveyors of said tools were merged into other companies, and the research for how to make it all happen has been farmed out to universities all over the world.

            I worked at a company that got a tiny piece of the TIA contract. When the funding was cut, the folks involved in that effort were chatting in the lunch room about how it wouldn't end (aka: the flow of $$ to our company), but it would just come from different contracts through TTIC and other acronym organizations. And, surprise, the money did keep coming in.

            Poindexter did not go away, and neither did his surveillance state toys. They just shuffled around a bit and changed their names. Heck, even the contractors involved didn't change, except for the small ones that were bought out by the larger ones.

            •  Booz Allen was/is the general contractor.... (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              AoT, YucatanMan

              ...both before and after the changeover (and even now). I even stated this in a post 2-3 weeks ago, before Snowden ever hit the news.

              "I always thought if you worked hard enough and tried hard enough, things would work out. I was wrong." --Katharine Graham

              by bobswern on Fri Jun 14, 2013 at 12:28:02 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  That is correct (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                bobswern, YucatanMan

                Though they aren't the only ones.

                •  The other two biggies were (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  bobswern, YucatanMan

                  Hicks & Associates, and SAIC.

                  The software being developed back in the days of TIA, was described as follows (from the software marketing materials):

                  “... the capability for analysts and decision-makers to develop an understanding of the intent of an individual or set of individuals with regards to a future action based on current understanding.”
                  In other words, use a list circumstantial criteria to build a story of potential terrorist behavior with the automatic assumption that any person who meets those criteria intends to perform a terrorist act.
                  •  This is a sidebar but similar situation as the (2+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    radical simplicity, bobswern

                    targeting of drone strikes on identity-unknown individuals in Pakistan, Yemen, et al, based upon their "activity profile."

                    How was that even determined?  Were they monitored by drone day after day?  Likely, any person entering a certain area or otherwise "associated" via behavior with "terrorist-similar activity" was simply terminated:

                    the intent of an individual or set of individuals with regards to a future action based on current understanding
                    “Signature strikes,” explained Heller, make up the overwhelming majority of drone attacks carried out by the United States. These strikes target individuals whose identities are unknown, but who exhibit certain patterns of behavior or defining characteristics associated with terrorist activity.
                    Why is this important and related?

                    The present administration, for over four years, has had no qualms about killing people engaged in "signature activities."  That they are tracking US citizens' behavior according to very similar parameters is disturbing.

                    No, I am absolutely not saying that Obama intends to drone strike Americans. That's some looney RW fantasy run amuck.

                    What I am saying is that this corrupt reasoning is being carried over into our civilian lives within this nation.  As radical simplicity stated, only circumstantial evidence is being used to determine who to study, investigate, surveil or otherwise target by intelligence organizations.

                    Doesn't this violate the essential concept of innocent until proven guilty?   Isn't it rather unAmerican to place suspicion on people, not for their overt actions or their dangerous behavior, but simply because their "patterns" fit a pre-designated circumstantial set of evidence?

                    They claim to be able to predict Future Behavior based upon Present Circumstances?  Is that really even a valid behavioral concept?

                    Frankly, that's disgusting, but that is exactly what these surveillance programs are doing -- today. Now. To us.

                    "The law is meant to be my servant and not my master, still less my torturer and my murderer." -- James Baldwin. July 11, 1966.

                    by YucatanMan on Fri Jun 14, 2013 at 06:01:11 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

        •  Of course they're keeping content (7+ / 0-)

          The statement that they only "go back" and listen if they get a warrant means there's something to "go back" to. If it were deleted, then it wouldn't be available to "go back" and listen to. They may have changed the UI from direct access to your full content to one in which there's a DB view you can get to only after the right rubber stamp has been applied to the right piece of paper, but that's not really much of a change.

        •  I seriously doubt (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          bobswern, Dianna, YucatanMan

          that Obama changed anything.

          “Wall Street had been doing business with pieces of paper; and now someone asked for a dollar, and it was discovered that the dollar had been mislaid.” ― Upton Sinclair

          by gjohnsit on Fri Jun 14, 2013 at 09:39:23 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  We couldn't possibly see a revolving door here (20+ / 0-)

        I'm sure there are no former Bushies raking in the millions from security-state contractors hoovering up contracts to do the duplicative and invasive IT work NSA's farming out.  Except probably all of them.

        Surely none of these companies "sharing" their info with NSA is using it to make money on insider stock trading, or scooping up start-ups based on this "security" information, or otherwise manipulating the business environment to their advantage.

        And it's not possible that there could be any confusion between enemies of America and threats to a company's quarterly profit projections.  Nope, can't see that happening at all.

        I didn't think Democrats could stoop lower than to support chained-CPI.  Didn't take long to learn I was, of course, completely wrong.  Anybody who supports this fascistic obscenity doesn't deserve to use the label.

        We have always been at war with al Qaeda.

        by Dallasdoc on Fri Jun 14, 2013 at 06:08:31 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  Beautiful (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      bobswern

      "I know what you are but what am I?"

      American Television is a vast sea of stupid. -xxdr zombiexx

      by glitterscale on Fri Jun 14, 2013 at 04:06:24 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  I hope they enjoy (25+ / 0-)

    my infrequent calls to get Chinese food delivered.

    Mine must be the most boring cell phone they're monitoring. It mostly stays home, turned off.

    Except for every month or so when I order Chinese food...or have to get more minutes.

    And, yes, I agree that the Fourth Amendment has been squashed into the mud of irrelevance by this NSA overreach.

    NOT shrugging, just...we already knew this, years ago. Under Shrub. The only difference is that Obama's government finally had to confirm it b/c of Snowden.

    They might be trashing him...but if he wasn't telling enough truth to threaten the NSA, nobody would have copped to it.

    And when the FISA court says you're undermining the Fourth Amendment, I think we can believe them.

    Hi, NSA! Nice to see you again! Did you read SensibleShoes' diary? You should...there are some really funny comments.

    Irony takes a worse beating from Republicans than Wile E. Coyote does from Acme. --Tara the Antisocial Social Worker

    by Youffraita on Fri Jun 14, 2013 at 12:44:16 AM PDT

  •  Listening to the Dead Kennedys lately (15+ / 0-)

    and its scary how much of Jello Biafra's lyrics have come true.

    And that was a funhouse mirror on Reagania!

  •  Mussolini (20+ / 0-)

    It does bring to mind Mussolini's description of fascism as a merging between Corporations and the State.

    Mark Twain: It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.

    by Land of Enchantment on Fri Jun 14, 2013 at 01:48:41 AM PDT

  •  I think most folks just cannot make the connection (21+ / 0-)

    between what is gathered and what it means. And what can be done with it. My own husband just a couple of days ago said - so what, they are tracking phone calls. Dude! WTF! Do you realize the technology today is to the point where there can be an icon with your name on it where you click on it and it will show you:

    Who/when/where you have made phone calls.
    Your banking and credit card transactions, including what you bought.

    That seemed to wake him up. I have been saying for years and years that this rewards card/data mining shit will be for no good. My go to example is when you go to Safeway and they tell you at the checkout that your health insurance company says you have bought enough red meat this month! And I bring up Safeway as an example because years ago they tried to screw over a warehouse employee involved in a warehouse accident by saying he was an alcoholic because of the amount of beer he purchased which they tracked. I found that scary then and it's scary now.

    Lately, whenever I go to a store and am asked if I have a rewards card, I say no. I'm sick of rewards cards. And 9 out of 10 cashiers seem to be agreeing with me.

    if a habitat is flooded, the improvement for target fishes increases by an infinite percentage...because a habitat suitability index that is even a tiny fraction of 1 is still infinitely higher than zero, which is the suitability of dry land to fishes.

    by mrsgoo on Fri Jun 14, 2013 at 01:52:53 AM PDT

  •  New schism: the watchers and the watched. (24+ / 0-)

    The NSA Director sounds all in on this.

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/...

    The National Security Agency isn't quite sure that it's doing enough when it comes to tuning into people's digital lives. A profile of NSA Director Gen. Keith Alexander in Wired magazine offers this frightening possibility: One day the organization may intercept online communications directly.

    "In his telling, the threat is so mind-bogglingly huge that the nation has little option but to eventually put the entire civilian Internet under his protection, requiring tweets and emails to pass through his filters, and putting the kill switch under the government’s forefinger," wrote James Bamford for the magazine. It may seem like an exaggeration, but Bamford, author of about a half dozen books on the agency, should know better than anyone else.

    "The human eye is a wonderful device. With a little effort, it can fail to see even the most glaring injustice." Richard K. Morgan

    by sceptical observer on Fri Jun 14, 2013 at 01:56:55 AM PDT

  •  A question (24+ / 0-)

    Has anyone else felt a very subtle second thought about posting something a bit controversial on-line (especially something critical of  the system/government), even if anonymously?  I have and it scares me.

    There's room at the top they're telling you still But first you must learn how to smile as you kill If you want to be like the folks on the hill

    by taonow on Fri Jun 14, 2013 at 03:16:16 AM PDT

    •  You can't live in fear. (8+ / 0-)

      Well, I can't anyway.  Maybe you can.

      I'm just not constitutionally able to censor my true thoughts due to repressive, dictatorial murderous people.  It's probably not a survival trait, but there you are.

    •  Worries me, (5+ / 0-)

      but what the heck, all my various nom de plume e-mail accounts have informed me that they are tied together under my real name this week, so what the heck.

      You..ought to be out raising hell. This is the fighting age. Put on your fighting clothes. -Mother Jones

      by northsylvania on Fri Jun 14, 2013 at 03:57:53 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  why? (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Rich in PA, zed

      You act like like the US government has some crack super secret team of ninja squirrels that will disappear you

      Gods I am so tired of people acting like we are living in a police state

      In the time that I have been given,
      I am what I am

      by duhban on Fri Jun 14, 2013 at 04:43:55 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  AKA: 'Whistling past the graveyard' or (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        gjohnsit, Dianna, YucatanMan

        'Re-arranging deck chairs on the Titanic' (as it heads toward the 'iceberg' Loretta Sanchez mentioned yesterday).

        •  um no (0+ / 0-)

          I just think people are overreacting

          In the time that I have been given,
          I am what I am

          by duhban on Fri Jun 14, 2013 at 01:31:07 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  It cuts both ways, I think. On other Democratic- (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            YucatanMan

            leaning boards there is a strong contingent calling for Greenwald to be prosecuted, under some bizarre theory where the First Amendment I guess simply ceases to exist. They've already eviscerated the Fourth, might as well make room for the First, I suppose that thinking goes.

            As soon as Loretta Sanchez issued her not-so sub rosa invitation to other whistleblowers and investigative journalists yesterday to reveal more of the 'iceberg,' I figured this could become, if not a government-ending scandal, then certainly a party-killing issue, before it's all over.

            We shall see.

            •  wow (0+ / 0-)

              so you are one of those then? I love dealing with the green party so full of idealism and yet so far from reality

              In the time that I have been given,
              I am what I am

              by duhban on Fri Jun 14, 2013 at 03:50:34 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Hunh? One of what? Are you red-baiting (or, in (0+ / 0-)

                this case, green-baiting)? I'm a registered Dem and voted Dem from 1980 through 2008. I voted Peace and Freedom in 2012 to protest the non-closure of Guantanamo and other issues where I felt like Obama had failed to deliver.

                Now it appears I may have been merely the proverbial canary in a coal mine of noxious Democratic fumes.

                But, as I said, we shall see.

                •  you are the one rooting for the dem party to fall (0+ / 0-)

                  not me

                  In the time that I have been given,
                  I am what I am

                  by duhban on Fri Jun 14, 2013 at 05:24:54 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  I'm rooting for the entire capitalist-imperialist (0+ / 0-)

                    system to fail, including both major bourgeois parties. I suppose I subscribe to the romantic Marxian notion of 'historical inevitability' for said failure, while trying in the meantime to ameliorate as many of the cruelties of capitalism as I can and stand resolutely against its manifest brutality.

                    But I also adhere strictly to a belief in 'one person, one vote' and try to hew adamantly to a policy of non-violence in both my personal and my poltiical lives.

                    Here's an interesting thought experiment for you to try: if we were to take the entire U.S. national income and divide it equally, each American family of four would receive approximately $200,000/year. In the abstract, doesn't that strike you as a far more equitable, hence moral, distribution of wealth than the current landscape of suffering and misery?

                    •  and I don't (0+ / 0-)

                      I think Marx at best saw the problems of a 100 years ago but the problems of a 100 years ago are not inherently the probelms we face today. That said I think him a fool for thinking captialism will fail because frankly while it's not perfect it's been implemented far better then Marx's ideas.

                      I think strict equality is great in theory but so long as we are dealing with the fundamental forces that drive captialism (want and scarcity) that's not going to happen.

                      I would love to have some Roddenberry Utopia but for now the reality is that's not happening and so we are left doing what we can with what we have. It really sucks sometimes but then that's life.

                      In the time that I have been given,
                      I am what I am

                      by duhban on Sat Jun 15, 2013 at 01:23:06 AM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

      •  You don't have very good vision, do you? (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        cardboardurinal, YucatanMan
        Just last month, unilateral changes to US military laws formally granted the Pentagon extraordinary powers to intervene in a domestic “emergency” or “civil disturbance”:

        “Federal military commanders have the authority, in extraordinary emergency circumstances where prior authorization by the President is impossible and duly constituted local authorities are unable to control the situation, to engage temporarily in activities that are necessary to quell large-scale, unexpected civil disturbances.”

        Other documents show that the “extraordinary emergencies” the Pentagon is worried about include a range of environmental and related disasters.

        http://www.rawstory.com/...
      •  round up the usual suspects (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        gjohnsit, Dianna, YucatanMan

        to say it's all nothing, we're just crazy nutcases for not trusting the govt and for worrying about our civil liberties.

        "Watch what you say or they'll be calling you a radical, a liberal, fanatical, criminal..."-7.75, -5.54

        by solesse413 on Fri Jun 14, 2013 at 10:52:18 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Yeah. They seem to be everywhere (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        gjohnsit, YucatanMan

        these days, acting like good little automatons as they go about their daily business of providing the gub'mint SuperSpies with stuff to giggle at and share with each other through their in-bunker intranets, never complaining about the loss of liberties they never used anyway and didn't know they had in the first place, feeling all toasty safe from da ebil terrier-ists and assorted less-than white folks forever plotting to trouble their hypnotic stupor and drug-induced apathy with uncomfortable truths their bureaucratic overlords don't want them to know.

        ...for their own good, of course.

        •  we have always existed in a delicate balance (0+ / 0-)

          of rights vs limitations. If you want to get off your cross for a bit I wouldn't mind having an actual conversation about that in the digital age because it is a conversation we all as a nation need to have.

          But I am not impressed by overreaction and hyperbole

          In the time that I have been given,
          I am what I am

          by duhban on Fri Jun 14, 2013 at 01:34:36 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  What, pray tell, (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            AoT, gjohnsit

            would make you think I am overreacting or hyperbolic?

            I made a tongue-in-cheek statement about people who don't use their liberties and may not even know they have liberties because those don't factor into their lives in any meaningful way. Or, as I once explained to a Russian immigrant friend, a person living in the worst totalitarian country on earth ruled by the evilest of despots is perfectly free to say and do anything they like, so long as what they say and do is exactly what their government wants them to say and do. Hence the true measure of liberty is how well a nation tolerates citizens saying and/or doing things that 'authorities' and authoritarians do not approve of.

            There are a great many people who want their government to keep them safe from the ebil terrier-ists that same government keeps them terrified of, so they can comfortably and predictably go about their mundane daily lives. This includes eating vast amounts chemical garbage disguised as food to the point of gross obesity, taking too many drugs prescribed by too many Big Pharma drug dealers because they're advertised on teevee ("tell your doctor you need this drug!") straight to "consumers" who don't have any clue what it's for or how it works but are programmed to demand it anyway. Then having to take more drugs to counteract the side effects of the other drugs, a never-ending spiral toward serious disease and/or early death. Oh, and spending literal years of their lives vegetating in front of the flickering screen of said teevee allowing themselves to be hypnotized and have their brains filled with garbage, hype and overwhelming desire for things they don't need and cannot afford.

            I know some of these people quite well.

            Such people absolutely don't want to know any government secrets, or truths that might discomfort their worldview in any way. The government doesn't need to keep secrets from people who don't care. Secrets are kept from people who DO care about things governments like to keep secret. Such as the blanket abrogation of human and civil rights, brutalization of citizens who dare to exercise rights they no longer have, and the many other assorted atrocities governments are known to commit on a regular or semi-regular basis.

            •  and some people (0+ / 0-)

              merely disagree with your opinion

              In the time that I have been given,
              I am what I am

              by duhban on Fri Jun 14, 2013 at 08:13:20 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  that's it? (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Joieau

                Joieau made a long, carefully explained point and all you can respond with is "I disagree with you"?
                   How is that "having an actual conversation"?

                “Wall Street had been doing business with pieces of paper; and now someone asked for a dollar, and it was discovered that the dollar had been mislaid.” ― Upton Sinclair

                by gjohnsit on Fri Jun 14, 2013 at 08:36:44 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  I feel no need to inflate my words (0+ / 0-)

                  simply to match Joieau in word count.

                  This isn't a word count contest, I made my point that is all that matters.

                  The fact is me and Joieau have been talking but from the looks of it we are simply not going to agree on this topic so what else is there to say? I suppose we could do the daily kos ritual insult but overall I find that tiresome.

                  There is something to be said for saying only what you need to say.

                  In the time that I have been given,
                  I am what I am

                  by duhban on Fri Jun 14, 2013 at 09:28:05 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

          •  You seem unimpressed by anything other (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Joieau

            than your own opinion.

            Literally dozens to hundreds of links have been posts and facts which counteract your prevailing view.  Yet you want to say things like "get off your cross."

            You cannot have discussion without insults and hyperbole yourself.

            "The law is meant to be my servant and not my master, still less my torturer and my murderer." -- James Baldwin. July 11, 1966.

            by YucatanMan on Fri Jun 14, 2013 at 06:12:33 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  I am unimpressed by (0+ / 0-)

              overreaction and insults

              And I think you mistake me for yourself. I've yet to see you have a conversation with anyone you don't agree with that deevolves into you insulting them .

              In the time that I have been given,
              I am what I am

              by duhban on Fri Jun 14, 2013 at 08:12:43 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Link ? n/t (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Joieau

                "The law is meant to be my servant and not my master, still less my torturer and my murderer." -- James Baldwin. July 11, 1966.

                by YucatanMan on Fri Jun 14, 2013 at 10:02:56 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

              •  Sigh. (1+ / 0-)

                You descend into insults upon insults, then project those onto those you're insulting. I'd wager you don't even see what you're doing, same as you can't see what's wrong with this gub'mint's gross overreaction to ebil terrier-ists haunting nothing but the dark corners of their own minds. They believe you and I are ebil terrier-ists now. Because we live here and have lives that terrify the gub'mint. You probably don't see anything erroneous in that either.

                I can understand why they're scared of me. I'm a certified Senior Citizen. Worse, I am a notable dissenter and 'whistleblower' in their eyes, against an entire technology they invented just so they could threaten all Americans and everyone else in the whole fucking world with Instant Annihilation back when that was their favorite control-button of convenience. I live on a mountain so far out in the boonies you can't legally get any farther without a wilderness camping permit. I grow actual organic food for my family, and I'm big into alternative, renewable energy. Extremely dangerous.

                Why are they scared of you?

                •  last I checked (0+ / 0-)

                  I have never called everyone and anyone I disagree with a fucking idiot nor recced a diary doing so

                  Last I checked I have never told everyone and anyone that if you don't exactly agree with me you should get ready to be exterminated nor recced a diary doing so.

                  Don't throw stones about insults Joieau you really don't have a leg to stand on.

                  In the time that I have been given,
                  I am what I am

                  by duhban on Sat Jun 15, 2013 at 08:54:44 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                •  duhban is... (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Joieau

                  a troll who likes winding people up. Don't feed the troll any more. I won't either.

                  'If you want to be a hero, well just follow me.' - J. Lennon

                  by Clive all hat no horse Rodeo on Sun Jun 16, 2013 at 06:47:12 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

    •  Well, Just in case (6+ / 0-)

      ...Business Insider published a helpful guide:

      The 10 Best Places To Seek Asylum From The US Government

      Are you wanted by the U.S. government?

      If you are Edward Snowden, the 29-year-old who leaked Top Secret information about the NSA, the answer is yes. And you need a sympathetic country to offer you political asylum. Soon.

      But where do you turn? Which countries could be willing to flout American interests and take you in?

      This list is a careful balance between those countries with strained diplomatic relations with the U.S., or those with a history of welcoming American dissidents, and those places that are most livable....

      Hong Kong is there -- for reasons that have nothing to do with China.



      Denial is a drug.

      by Pluto on Fri Jun 14, 2013 at 04:47:59 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  of course (5+ / 0-)

      self censorship is a well known phenomenon
      don't mention conspiracies

    •  No, of course not. (0+ / 0-)

      I think many people want to feel that way, to validate their overall belief that we live under a repressive regime, but that's the proof we don't live under a repressive regime.  In actual repressive regimes people don't have to will themselves to feel under threat.

      You know, I sometimes think if I could see, I'd be kicking a lot of ass. -Stevie Wonder at the Glastonbury Festival, 2010

      by Rich in PA on Fri Jun 14, 2013 at 05:12:22 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  The world changes. (10+ / 0-)

        The farther back you go, the more physical and obvious repression had to be to achieve the desired results.

        In the 'ideal' repressive society, little to no physical force at all is required.  The results of repression are what matter, not the outer expression thereof.  A populace that supplies the labor required to keep the upper class in luxury while subsisting on the crumbs left to them.

        For most of human history, that meant literal slavery of foreign populations.  Then it became apparent that the same ends could be achieved by economic policies that oppress your own population, and we no longer required literal slavery to achieve the same ends.

        So now, we only see the force expressed through violence when people physically dare to stand up against the economic caste system, such as in OWS protests.  Then the batons, tear gas, pepper spray, and rubber bullets come out, until the protesters are properly pacified again.

      •  repressive regime? (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        gjohnsit, cardboardurinal

        I think people are far more concerned about their current/future jobs, than they are of official reprisal.

        What are you doing to fight the dangerous and counterproductive error of treating dirtbag terrorist criminals as though they were comic book supervillains? I can't believe we still have to argue this shit, let alone on Daily Kos.

        by happymisanthropy on Fri Jun 14, 2013 at 10:12:49 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  That is official reprisal (0+ / 0-)

          It's random and it's a threat to our lives. I live in fear of not having a job and being homeless. And the police are happy to help kick me out of where ever I may be lucky enough to live.

          If debt were a moral issue then, lacking morals, corporations could never be in debt.

          by AoT on Fri Jun 14, 2013 at 11:26:43 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  No. It's too late by now. (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      mkor7, AoT, Joieau

      You're either already screwed, or it doesn't matter.  Unless it's your first posting critical of the system, if it's going to matter, it's already too late.

    •  I was going to reply and had typed out (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      taonow

      a lengthy response. Then I thought, "Why tip the NSA to my plans?" and hit cancel. So unless the NSA has a keyboard logger, my plans are safe.

      JK, but not totally. And yes, I'm now channeling my inner Ari Fleischer and 'watching what I say' while I wait for more of the "iceberg" Loretta Sanchez mentioned yesterday to come into view and plan my countermeasures.

    •  Yes, and that's the point (0+ / 0-)

      that's why there is a right to privacy and why a violation of it matters.

      “Wall Street had been doing business with pieces of paper; and now someone asked for a dollar, and it was discovered that the dollar had been mislaid.” ― Upton Sinclair

      by gjohnsit on Fri Jun 14, 2013 at 10:08:41 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Doc2 posted last night (0+ / 0-)

      that anyone defending Snowden on the internet ought to be very, very afraid...

      What are you doing to fight the dangerous and counterproductive error of treating dirtbag terrorist criminals as though they were comic book supervillains? I can't believe we still have to argue this shit, let alone on Daily Kos.

      by happymisanthropy on Fri Jun 14, 2013 at 10:10:39 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  When the wikileaks state department (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        LucyandByron, gjohnsit

        documents first got leaked people were outright told that they would never be hired for a government post if they read them at all. I'd bet that this info is used for every background check.

        If debt were a moral issue then, lacking morals, corporations could never be in debt.

        by AoT on Fri Jun 14, 2013 at 11:28:44 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  I just now clicked on the 'recommend' button for (0+ / 0-)

      your comment, and my screen kind of flickered and my computer froze up for a few seconds.    Sure makes me wonder .....

  •  I want to know ... (24+ / 0-)

    how the NSA can be so good BUT ...

    - the VA can't cope with two computer systems talking to each other ... maybe the NSA can hack in and fix it.

    - SEC can't seem to catch insider trading ... but if the NSA listens to or logs everything this should be a fucking piece of cake.

    - the SEC/DOJ can't prosecute bank fraud. Again this should be a slam dunk.

    - the government can't catch companies fixing prices/colluding ... again .. easy as pie.

    I am not crazy about spying on citizens at all .... but it might make it a bit more palatable if the spying had some tangible results ... like catching some real bad guys.

    All I can say based on what we have seen and heard so far (the tip of the iceberg I hear) is that OBL won.

    There's room at the top they're telling you still But first you must learn how to smile as you kill If you want to be like the folks on the hill

    by taonow on Fri Jun 14, 2013 at 03:26:01 AM PDT

  •  Linux is not a panacea. (28+ / 0-)

    1) It's not any harder to attack Linux than it is to attack Windows.

    The reason that Linux viruses and malware are relatively rare isn't that Linux is hard to attack. It's just that Windows is more common. It's hard to spread a Linux virus because of the "herd immunity" effect, which works essentially the same way against computer viruses as it does against biological viruses. But if we ever did see widespread mass adoption of Linux, we'll see more frequent and more effective attacks.

    It's worth noting that Linux is actually more vulnerable than Windows is to certain kinds of attacks. Most notably, it's ridiculously easy to trick a Linux user into running arbitrary code from the terminal. Much harder to get Windows users to do that.

    2) Linux isn't guaranteed to be secure and free of back doors.

    Linux is open-source. You are theoretically free to peruse millions of lines of source code and look for vulnerabilities and back doors. But...

    a) Humans actually aren't very good at figuring out what code does just by reading it. Even programmers aren't very good at that. The problem of figuring out what code does is basically an extension of the halting problem, which isn't solvable. Programmers are a little better at it than computers are, because we can use intuition and experience as shortcuts around the rigorous analysis - but sometimes (often) intuition and experience fail. That's why bugs and vulnerabilities exist.

    b) There's no guarantee that the software you're installing is actually compiled from the exact source code you're reading. It's likely. But it's not guaranteed, unless you compile every piece of software you use, including your Linux distribution itself, from source. Every time you update it. And even then, you have to trust your compiler. Did you compile your own compiler? With what?

    c) Proprietary software exists for Linux. It's likely, if you use Linux as your main OS for purposes other than programming geekery, that you use at least some proprietary software. The most common is probably hardware drivers (video drivers are notorious), but you may also be using proprietary software for your work. For instance, there aren't any good open-source alternatives to Maple or Mathematica (Sage and Octave are both bleh). You may need to run Matlab, not SciLab, for compatibility reasons. And so on.

    None of these packages have even the minimal level of transparency/accountability that open source software does. All of them are capable of introducing vulnerabilities to your system. (Ironically, Windows versions running on Wine are probably the safest form of proprietary software because they live in a 'walled garden'.)

    3) Security is inconvenient.

    It is possible to configure a Linux system so that it's exceptionally secure. Use only long-term-support versions. Compile your own source. Create separate admin and user accounts, limit the user accounts' privileges, and disable sudo. Use only open-source drivers and software (all compiled from source). Disable scripting and cookies in your web browser. Configure the network to connect through Tor at login. Use only encrypted chat and email. Use an encrypted drive for all your sensitive data. Auto-wipe all unencrypted user data periodically.

    Congratulations, your computer is now a massive pain in the ass.

    It might be worth it if you're actually a James Bond villain. Or a darknet drug dealer, perhaps. Or a dissident under an oppressive totalitarian regime. Or clinically paranoid. For the rest of us, having our computer set up like that is going to have a greater chilling effect on our online participation than any amount of NSA snooping (until the black helicopters actually start showing up).

    Real people will use Linux pretty much the same way they use Windows: using a pre-compiled distribution, under an account with admin access/sudo enabled, running multiple proprietary software packages, with web scripting and cookies and insecure connections and unencrypted email and unencrypted data, solving technical problems by doing pretty much whatever the first Google result tells them to do. So all of the potential security features of Linux aren't going to do them a lick of good.

    I'm not bashing Linux here. I love Linux. I run Mint as my secondary OS at the moment. I mostly need it for web programming, but it's a beautiful OS. It just isn't going to solve all our problems.

    "Let’s just move on, treat everybody with firmness, fairness, dignity, compassion and respect. Let’s be Marines." - Sgt. Maj Michael Barrett on DADT repeal

    by kyril on Fri Jun 14, 2013 at 03:34:22 AM PDT

    •  My son made the point (5+ / 0-)

      that the OS is less important than what you send out into the ether, and what you receive from it. As soon as you use TOR, or an anonymizer to search, that sends up immediate red flags. Since he works for one of those aforementioned skeezy companies, I figure he knows enough to talk.
      He also uses Mint, as an elegant system, and because it currently foils the general run of malware hackers.  

      You..ought to be out raising hell. This is the fighting age. Put on your fighting clothes. -Mother Jones

      by northsylvania on Fri Jun 14, 2013 at 04:05:13 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  That's the exact same reasoning I used to skip (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        elfling, northsylvania

        using TOR or anonymizers in the past.  They're going to instantly tell people 'look at me! I've got things to hide!' and single you out for attack for no real reason.  (Well, I guess unless you actually are doing something that is illegal anyway.)

        •  The more people who use it (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          kyril

          the less that is true. The more people who refuse to use it out of fear of being targeted the more those people are vulnerable. The more vulnerable. TOR is far from a panacea, but it helps. The more we run shit through encrypted networks the more time it takes the folks in charge to decrypt and the safer we all are. Given that they're already collecting all your information and given that no one that we know of has been singled out for using TOR it seems overkill to worry about being singled out and attacked.

          If debt were a moral issue then, lacking morals, corporations could never be in debt.

          by AoT on Fri Jun 14, 2013 at 10:57:28 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  Actually, one suggestion I have is to maintain (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Nina Katarina, young voter, AoT

      a computer with no physical network connectivity for file storage.  Even if you manage to infect it with a file with a trojan carried on a cd or thumb drive, it will have no way to let anyone else onto your system.  The worst it can do is erase or corrupt files, then.

      Use your network connected computer basically as a dumb terminal to hit websites or send email.

    •  kyril, THANKS for straight scoop on Linux (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Nina Katarina

      Within the last couple of days, a Kossite posted a well-intentioned diary that claimed that a number of Linux-based packages could be used to provide safety from NSA info-grabbing.  I knew the info was wrong, but lacked the geekdom to reply meaningfully.  Would you consider turning this comment into a diary to warn/inform Kossites who may have considered that diary credible enough to act on?

      •  The suggestions given were actually pretty good (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        AoT, CroneWit

        They were primarily about securing your communications, not your computer itself.

        The thing is, they had little or nothing to do with Linux. Tor is cross-platform. Most of the other software is either cross-platform or browser-based. You can secure your communications just as effectively on a Windows system as on a Linux system.

        "Let’s just move on, treat everybody with firmness, fairness, dignity, compassion and respect. Let’s be Marines." - Sgt. Maj Michael Barrett on DADT repeal

        by kyril on Fri Jun 14, 2013 at 01:52:39 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  It's not a total fix, but Linux is far better (0+ / 0-)

      than Windows for lots of reasons.

      “Wall Street had been doing business with pieces of paper; and now someone asked for a dollar, and it was discovered that the dollar had been mislaid.” ― Upton Sinclair

      by gjohnsit on Fri Jun 14, 2013 at 10:52:51 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I refuted pretty much all those arguments (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        AoT

        in the comment you're replying to.

        Linux systems are by no means infallible, but one of their key advantages lies in the way account privileges are assigned. In Windows, users are generally given administrator access by default, which means they pretty much have access to everything on the system, even its most crucial parts. So, then, do viruses. It's like giving terrorists high-level government positions.
        The article is wrong (or has outdated information) about Windows. The default access levels for Windows 7 and most Linux distros are roughly equivalent. Both give the account limited privileges, but allow it to temporarily upgrade to administrator-level privileges when needed.

        Windows actually does slightly more to protect itself from its own users, in that there are some things that even an Administrator can't do from inside a running copy of Windows. Linux, on the other hand...any account with sudo access can rm -rf.

        A good sysadmin can protect Linux from users very effectively. Much more so than a Windows system. But you're recommending Linux for home use, where the user - a newbie you just converted - is the sysadmin.

        Thanks to the fact that most Linux users don't have root access, however, it's much harder to accomplish any real damage on a Linux system by getting them to do something foolish. Before any real damage could occur, a Linux user would have to read the e-mail, save the attachment, give it executable permissions and then run the executable. Not very likely, in other words.
        Yes, social engineering attacks on Linux systems take a different form. Email attachments don't typically do a whole lot of good. On the other hand, getting people to run arbitrary code from the terminal is pretty easy. And terrifying.
        Fortunately, a diversity of environments is yet another benefit that Linux offers. There's Ubuntu, there's Debian, there's Gentoo, and there are many other distributions. There are also many shells, many packaging systems, and many mail clients; Linux even runs on many architectures beyond just Intel. So, whereas a virus can be targeted squarely at Windows users, since they all use pretty much the same technology, reaching more than a small faction of Linux users is much more difficult. Who wouldn't want to give their company that extra layer of assurance?
        There's surprisingly little difference between the distros 'under the hood'. Especially since the overwhelming majority of users will be running a Debian-based distro.
        Hand-in-hand with this monoculture effect comes the not particularly surprising fact that the majority of viruses target Windows, and the desktops in your organization are no exception. Millions of people all using the same software make an attractive target for malicious attacks.
        This is true. It's also got absolutely nothing to do with Linux or Windows per se. The main security advantage of Linux is that other people aren't using it. If you're trying to get those other people to use it, you can't use the fact that they're not using it as a selling point. Even indirectly.
        "Linus' Law"--named for Linus Torvalds, the creator of Linux--holds that, "given enough eyeballs, all bugs are shallow." What that means is that the larger the group of developers and testers working on a set of code, the more likely any flaws will be caught and fixed quickly. This, in other words, is essentially the polar opposite of the "security through obscurity" argument.

        With Windows, it's a limited set of paid developers who are trying to find problems in the code. They adhere to their own set timetables, and they don't generally tell anyone about the problems until they've already created a solution, leaving the door open to exploits until that happens. Not a very comforting thought for the businesses that depend on that technology.

        This is a decent argument. It's one of the reasons why I like open-source. But it's not airtight, for all the reasons I pointed out in my comment above.

        "Let’s just move on, treat everybody with firmness, fairness, dignity, compassion and respect. Let’s be Marines." - Sgt. Maj Michael Barrett on DADT repeal

        by kyril on Fri Jun 14, 2013 at 02:39:46 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  Privacy is not a civil right. Privacy is a human (8+ / 0-)

    right. The Constitution does not recognize human rights, much less guarantee respect for them. That was a wise decision on the part of the founders because guarantees that can't be enforced are worthless.
    Civil rights are those that relate to the individual performance of our duties and obligations as citizens:

    to vote
    to hold office
    to propose laws
    to serve on juries
    to provide material support
    to enforce the laws

    These are the rights that the civil rights movement addressed because almost two hundred years after the country's founding, citizens were prevented from carrying them out. And, indeed, we are currently witnessing push-back, an effort to restrict citizen participation directly and indirectly, by secreting the information we need to govern.  That the people govern is still not universally accepted. Many people prefer the authoritarian, in loco parentis, mode, which argues that, having consented to be represented, we should, like dutiful spouses, lie back and let ourselves be ruled.

    How do we enforce the law? By electing public servants, rather than petty potentates. The Constitution is not self-enforcing. Judges are opinionators, not enforcers. They rely on the executive to impose restraints on recalcitrant persons. If the executive and the legislative branches are themselves recalcitrant, it is up to the citizenry to replace them. Firing people is an enforcement mechanism, not by setting an example for others, who might be inclined to recalcitrants, but by getting rid of the deadwood.

    The argument that governmental agency is a problem was actually very clever. It made recalcitrance and obstruction look like a virtue. As a result, we ended up with a host of Bratlebys, people who get paid for doing nothing. Scarfing up electronic data, btw, is what I'd classify as doing nothing.

    We organize governments to deliver services and prevent abuse.

    by hannah on Fri Jun 14, 2013 at 04:03:47 AM PDT

  •  "SWAP" (2+ / 0-)

    What do they get in return?

    •  Who? The government or the company? (0+ / 0-)

      If you mean the companies, I suppose an example for 3 or 4 years ago would be when Google detected Chinese incursions into their systems and the US government jumped in to investigate.

      SoS Clinton even made a statement on their behalf IIRC.

    •  The article does not (0+ / 0-)

      discuss this very much but they do mention that Google received classified information about Chinese hackers who were attacking Google in 2010. Sergey Brin received a temporary clearance to sit in on a classified meeting. It would be nice to know if there are other things all these companies are getting in return since it is "thousands" participating.

      I'm not concerned if Microsoft or MacAfee are telling the government about flaws in their own systems or emerging viruses they know about. Turning over all the users' records is completely different.

    •  That's the real question (0+ / 0-)

      and the answer might go a long ways toward explaining why small companies are getting crushed by big ones.

      “Wall Street had been doing business with pieces of paper; and now someone asked for a dollar, and it was discovered that the dollar had been mislaid.” ― Upton Sinclair

      by gjohnsit on Fri Jun 14, 2013 at 10:25:27 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  During the early years of Iraqi war (6+ / 0-)

    ...they were listening the intimate phone conversations between the military officers deployed there and their spouses back at home. I think they wanted to know which officers were disagreeing with the Bush gov or what they were thinking about what was going on there...we can't blame the "government" for this but with such power without proper oversight and laws, any lowlife with an alterior motive could do such things. The information was in the news.

    I believe my personal and intimate conversations with my spouse when he was working in Arlington were listened. for example. I have no proof but certain words by certain assholes on some social media sites during 2007 made that clear to me. They would troll around and target the liberals and the Democrats online with ugly taunts....anyone remembers those days?

    Yeah they did abuse the trust given to them.

    "Corruptio Optimi Pessima" (Corruption of the best is the worst)

    by zenox on Fri Jun 14, 2013 at 05:10:25 AM PDT

  •  Sales of 1984 up 6000% since NSA story broke (10+ / 0-)

    Not a joke.

    Come on, guys.  

    Unelected presidents are Presidents.

    Non-existent WMD's exist.

    Iraq is a safe and America-loving democracy.  As is Afghanistan.

    The American political class respects our 4th-Amendment privacy rights and would never betray that sacred trust.

    Freedom is slavery, people.  

    2 + 2 is 5.

    I love Big Brother.

  •  What's the quo to the quid? (4+ / 0-)

    If corporations are "freely" giving this data, what are they getting in return?  Are they receiving special treatment from the govt?  Will MSFT's consideration make the govt more likely to give them a tax holiday for all their billions in offshore profits?
    Is there a chance that any of these "partners" of the govt would get favorable treatment in return for their cooperation?  First dibs on lucrative contracts?  Is the govt more likely to turn a blind eye to antitrust violations or other corporate malfeasance in exchange for their "help"?  

    •  corporations? favorable treatment? (5+ / 0-)

      from the government?
      the You=Ess government??
      the hell you say.
      They get nothing in return but the warm glow of patriotism. A skewed tax code, nonexistent regulation of safety and labor laws, too-big to fail status entrenched and reinforced, and no prosecution of wrongdoing by anyone important enough to be in the Club?

      Coincidence.

      Last full month in which the average daily temperature did not exceed twentieth-century norms: 2/1985 - Harper's Index, 2/2013

      by kamarvt on Fri Jun 14, 2013 at 06:50:24 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  What? They were Lying? (3+ / 0-)

    Can't be!  I believed every single word that they said!

    Arrrgh.  Ok, what's the truth today?

    Dang it, I hate it when I have to study for the History exam.  The answers are never what they were yesterday.

    /snark

    I don't blame Christians. I blame Stupid. Which sadly is a much more popular religion these days.

    by detroitmechworks on Fri Jun 14, 2013 at 06:33:12 AM PDT

  •  They should cut a deal. (4+ / 0-)

    Pay my phone/internet bill and you can spy on my computer and phone for free, all they want, even jack off over a juicy personal call if that's what they want.  (Sadly, I don't get many juicy personal calls anymore.  Actually, more like none).  

    It might even save them some money because they wouldn't have to screw with so many vendors!  Win-win!

    Or maybe it just wouldn't be the same them, knowing that I'm in on it.  Sort of like how a peeping tom can't just go to a nudie bar and instead has to peek through strangers' bathroom windows.

    Well, okay then, how about this?  If they ALSO throw in free World of Warcraft and/or Everquest subscriptions, I'll pretend to not know they are there.  I'll say things like, "Gosh oh gee, that NSA guy Keith Alexander is such a turd-head!  But I'm glad he can't hear this phone call!  It would be so embarrassing!  I hate America!"  I'll try to make it sound less staged than that.  Really, I can do better.  I took drama in high school.  

  •  Recced, tipped, one quibble. (0+ / 0-)

    With linux, you still need software that performs the same sorts of functionality as McAfee, but it is also generally freeware and open-source, and often installed at the time the operating system is, depending on the distribution you choose.  Linux has a bit of a learning curve, but has been getting more desktop user friendly for years.

  •  but why will people ignore this (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    native, gjohnsit, Joieau, LucyandByron

    why do people ignore this info? ignore the NSA scandal? why do people continue to support the President and this government? even here on this site?  because to do otherwise is to make oneself vulnerable, to question, to reflect and see the world for what it is.

    and that can be scary.  It's not fun to realize there are no white hat cowboy heros in the world. Its not fun to realize you arent part of the "good guys".

    Living the lie is often much easier and much more comfortable.  So people lash out when people expose and attack the lie.

  •  Shit (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    native, gjohnsit

    NSA's too friggin' smart.  I was hoping they'd shoot themselves in the foot by hijacking Corporate America's telecommunications, thus setting up a struggle with another actual [power center, rather than the mere citizenry.  But they were too smart for that, they got their deals done with Oligarchy first, the circle of hegemony remains unbroken.  So much for my wishful thinking of internecine power struggles among the elites.

    "You may very well think so, I could not possibly comment." ~ Francis Urquhart, pragmatic political philosopher

    by ActivistGuy on Fri Jun 14, 2013 at 07:35:34 AM PDT

  •  I suspect they're getting much more (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    native, gjohnsit

    Money is the prime motivator of industry, and when they are this eager to cooperate, one should suspect that someone is paying them for that cooperation.

    Which makes it all even more reprehensible.

  •  "It would be some COLONEL..." (0+ / 0-)

    Funny.  I'm not a colonel, I don't think you are.  Aren't there different rules for military personnel regarding privacy?

    Bad example.

    "Nothing in all the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity." --M. L. King "You can't fix stupid" --Ron White -6.00, -5.18

    by zenbassoon on Fri Jun 14, 2013 at 07:55:12 AM PDT

  •  A whole lot of "trackin" going on (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    native, gjohnsit

    Even on this site...all sorts of cookie tracks...at least 10 according to  Ghostery a Firefox add-on.

    The outsourcing of security positions to private companies also opens the $$$$ doors for those companies to make lots of contributions to the legislators who make the decisions on security issues....cue Alanis Morrisette's  "Ironic"...

    •  Kind of makes one wonder (0+ / 0-)

      what major blogs might be cooperating with the NSA, doesn't it?

      “Wall Street had been doing business with pieces of paper; and now someone asked for a dollar, and it was discovered that the dollar had been mislaid.” ― Upton Sinclair

      by gjohnsit on Fri Jun 14, 2013 at 10:32:58 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Ya know, everyone whines about the NSA, but I (0+ / 0-)

    can get tons of your metadata legally on my own and it won't cost me that much money.

    "Nothing in all the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity." --M. L. King "You can't fix stupid" --Ron White -6.00, -5.18

    by zenbassoon on Fri Jun 14, 2013 at 07:59:53 AM PDT

  •  Another question (0+ / 0-)

    How can Bloomberg disclose this info and not be called a traitor? Arguably this is more damaging than the previous disclosures

    There's room at the top they're telling you still But first you must learn how to smile as you kill If you want to be like the folks on the hill

    by taonow on Fri Jun 14, 2013 at 08:02:27 AM PDT

    •  Well, they released the story (0+ / 0-)

      in the middle of the night.
         Have you ever noticed that the most controversial news stories are broadcast on Friday evenings, holidays, and other times when most people aren't paying attention?

      “Wall Street had been doing business with pieces of paper; and now someone asked for a dollar, and it was discovered that the dollar had been mislaid.” ― Upton Sinclair

      by gjohnsit on Fri Jun 14, 2013 at 10:34:55 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  I can't remember the timing on this offhand (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    AoT
    Of course Microsoft gave the NSA a backdoor into every operating system it has made since 1999 (long before 9/11)
     
    Was that part of the Microsoft settlement with the government, back when they were being sued for monopolizing the market? There was A Deal, as I recall...

    "The “Left” is NOT divided on the need to oppose austerity and the Great Betrayal. The Third Way is not left or center or even right. It is Wall Street on the Potomac."--Bill Black

    by lunachickie on Fri Jun 14, 2013 at 09:13:02 AM PDT

    •  I don't believe so (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      AoT, lunachickie

      I don't think it was part of The Deal. The story came out in 1999, but the backdoor was there several years before.

      “Wall Street had been doing business with pieces of paper; and now someone asked for a dollar, and it was discovered that the dollar had been mislaid.” ― Upton Sinclair

      by gjohnsit on Fri Jun 14, 2013 at 10:36:06 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  So far, I haven't seen anyone discuss (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    gjohnsit, shigeru, AoT, LucyandByron

    the fact that Carlyle is 2/3's owner of Booz Allen.
    As owner, are they privileged to have access to any of the data that they track?   Could explain why they have so much invested in so many companies.   Henry Kissinger sits on this board, as well as a whole lot of former govt players.  

    Also, in the realm of CT, noted that the Bilderberg group met in England just days ago, and some of the attendees included Google's  Schmidt,  and Thiel, the principal of the CIA invested company Palantir, which is doing a lot in metadata research.  Henry Kissinger was supposedly at that meeting as well.  Amazon's Bezos was there, too.
    Metadata was on the agenda they released for the public.

    Why can't they put this much effort into jobs, ensuring that people pay fair taxes, and being sure that people are getting a fair share of public resources they need?  There's a moral obligation for these guys to turn these tools to use on the light side, not keep them for dark side use only.  

    •  Look it is all an incest club. (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      AoT

      Everyone is related. All the top folks went to the same 10 universities at these companies. The most diverse part is the army.

      "Oh, I am heartily tired of hearing about what Lee is going to do..... Go back to your command, and try to think what are we going to do ourselves, instead of what Lee is going to do." Grant

      by shigeru on Fri Jun 14, 2013 at 11:08:17 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  I am not happy about PRISM but (0+ / 0-)

    I am not certain that the information in this diary is quite what the diarist is thinking.

    Virus companies DO see a lot of malware - it's their job. You're thinking that this partnership means they're sniffing your personal data off your protected computer - but more likely, the partnership is more about McAfee et al informing the Three Letter Agencies when they see new attacks, attacks that are in fact criminal activity.

    If they see a new virus engineered to attack, say, power plants, I sure want them to call law enforcement. Heck, any coordinated attack is stealing energy and thus money from all of us, and many of them come from overseas. The amount of spam and other unlawful, unwanted traffic is a substantial percentage of the whole network. The carbon footprint of that alone is a crime, never mind all the time spent fighting it.

    Fry, don't be a hero! It's not covered by our health plan!

    by elfling on Fri Jun 14, 2013 at 11:11:09 AM PDT

  •  Tempest in a Teabag (0+ / 0-)

    It rubs the loofah on its skin or else it gets the falafel again.

    by Fishgrease on Fri Jun 14, 2013 at 11:17:46 AM PDT

    •  Re: (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      AoT, LucyandByron, Dianna
      Those rules are very specific. The targeting can only be of foreign nationals outside the United States.
       And it has since been revealed that their method only works 51% of the time.
         I don't trust the author of this article.

      “Wall Street had been doing business with pieces of paper; and now someone asked for a dollar, and it was discovered that the dollar had been mislaid.” ― Upton Sinclair

      by gjohnsit on Fri Jun 14, 2013 at 11:37:55 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  You must be very brave to still be on the internet (0+ / 0-)

        either that, or like most of us, the NSA isn't really interested in you.

        It rubs the loofah on its skin or else it gets the falafel again.

        by Fishgrease on Fri Jun 14, 2013 at 11:44:09 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  And that makes it all better, huh? (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Dianna

          You don't mind your rights being violated as long as you personally don't get arrested.
            Is that your logic? If so, what is the point of the Bill of Rights at all?

          “Wall Street had been doing business with pieces of paper; and now someone asked for a dollar, and it was discovered that the dollar had been mislaid.” ― Upton Sinclair

          by gjohnsit on Fri Jun 14, 2013 at 01:14:04 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  "Yawn" (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      gjohnsit

      The government swears it isn't really spying on us. Just like all the other times it swore that when it was revealed that it was spying on us.

      If debt were a moral issue then, lacking morals, corporations could never be in debt.

      by AoT on Fri Jun 14, 2013 at 11:40:45 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  People who worry about the NSA spying on them (0+ / 0-)

        have a hugely exaggerated‎ idea of how goddamn interesting they are.

        It rubs the loofah on its skin or else it gets the falafel again.

        by Fishgrease on Fri Jun 14, 2013 at 11:47:41 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  You have no clue what this is about (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          LucyandByron, gjohnsit, Dianna

          if you think this is about how interesting people are or are not. This is the sort of info that the government uses to go after environmentalists. But hey, it isn't like that's important.

          If debt were a moral issue then, lacking morals, corporations could never be in debt.

          by AoT on Fri Jun 14, 2013 at 12:01:01 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  I know exactly what this is about. (0+ / 0-)

            It's yet another excuse for you to bitch about Obama.

            It rubs the loofah on its skin or else it gets the falafel again.

            by Fishgrease on Fri Jun 14, 2013 at 12:09:04 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  And you bring up Obama, not me (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Dianna

              You try to make it about the president, not me.

              I'm sure that's because I want to talk about the president.

              If debt were a moral issue then, lacking morals, corporations could never be in debt.

              by AoT on Fri Jun 14, 2013 at 12:16:17 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Wow! You got me there! (0+ / 0-)

                Brilliant!

                Cannot compete with UR skillz.

                It rubs the loofah on its skin or else it gets the falafel again.

                by Fishgrease on Fri Jun 14, 2013 at 01:32:04 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  So you throw in some sarcasm (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Dianna, gjohnsit

                  I have consistently made clear that this is not about Obama. You and other people who are intent on defending spying on the American public consistently scream about how people who oppose this only oppose it because they hate Obama. You just did exactly that.

                  It's yet another excuse for you to bitch about Obama.
                  No, it isn't. It's a serious fucking problem. It was a problem when we got the first inklings of how broad this stuff was, and when folks like me were called paranoid for saying that the government was spying on all Americans. But no, I just don't like the president.

                  If debt were a moral issue then, lacking morals, corporations could never be in debt.

                  by AoT on Fri Jun 14, 2013 at 01:43:45 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  It's not a serious fucking problem and 2 months (0+ / 0-)

                    from now no one will give a crap about it.

                    It rubs the loofah on its skin or else it gets the falafel again.

                    by Fishgrease on Fri Jun 14, 2013 at 01:47:36 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  I disagree with the first part of that (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      Dianna

                      The second I don't disagree with. Of course, that has nothing to do with the first.

                      If debt were a moral issue then, lacking morals, corporations could never be in debt.

                      by AoT on Fri Jun 14, 2013 at 01:54:57 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  The news media might forget (1+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        AoT

                        but the people won't.
                            The news media will always get distracted by whatever Lindsey Lohan is doing and whatever is happening on Dances With The Stars, but people are going to remember this every time they log into their email. There are going to be a lot of dark jokes told about this years to come.

                          This isn't going to go away.
                        The politicians won't want to talk about it. The news media will want to talk about something else. But everyone will remember every single day.

                        “Wall Street had been doing business with pieces of paper; and now someone asked for a dollar, and it was discovered that the dollar had been mislaid.” ― Upton Sinclair

                        by gjohnsit on Fri Jun 14, 2013 at 08:23:16 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  No. The people will forget. Already have. (0+ / 0-)

                          Unless you mean 5% of the population that includes you.

                          The story is nothing. Get over that or don't - it will change nothing.

                          It rubs the loofah on its skin or else it gets the falafel again.

                          by Fishgrease on Sat Jun 15, 2013 at 10:39:11 AM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                    •  There has been outrage about this (0+ / 0-)

                      for several years. The outraged is renewed with every new revelation.
                         If you think this is going away then you are going to be very disappointed.

                        You may not understand why, but some people in this country still care about their freedoms.

                      “Wall Street had been doing business with pieces of paper; and now someone asked for a dollar, and it was discovered that the dollar had been mislaid.” ― Upton Sinclair

                      by gjohnsit on Fri Jun 14, 2013 at 08:19:39 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                  •  I'm starting to get the feeling (0+ / 0-)

                    that some people here work in D.C. for the Obama Administration. They may not even disagree with you, but they feel it is their duty to protect the government policy no matter what it is.
                        I could be wrong, but the inability of some of these people to see things in a non-partisan way tells me that they are waaayyy too close to the source.

                    “Wall Street had been doing business with pieces of paper; and now someone asked for a dollar, and it was discovered that the dollar had been mislaid.” ― Upton Sinclair

                    by gjohnsit on Fri Jun 14, 2013 at 08:17:56 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

            •  Which proves (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Dianna

              that you don't have a clue what this is about.

              It's yet another excuse for you to bitch about Obama.
              Thanks for playing.

              “Wall Street had been doing business with pieces of paper; and now someone asked for a dollar, and it was discovered that the dollar had been mislaid.” ― Upton Sinclair

              by gjohnsit on Fri Jun 14, 2013 at 01:18:38 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Nor do you. (0+ / 0-)

                Unless you've suddenly learned everything there is to know about the NSA.

                You're guessing, just like Greenwald did. Even the Guardian has walked back his fuckup of an article.

                It rubs the loofah on its skin or else it gets the falafel again.

                by Fishgrease on Fri Jun 14, 2013 at 01:24:16 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Wrong on several levels (0+ / 0-)

                   First of all, you claim this is all about getting Obama, when in fact most of the outrage involved the same claims about the Bush Administration (that Obama has since carried out and expanded).
                    Secondly, I find it extremely offensive that you can't honestly understand how someone can be outraged at having their civil rights violated. Are you really so partisan that you can't view an event in a non-partisan way?
                    Finally, I don't need to know everything about the program when so much of it is beyond question. I don't need to know exactly how much they've spied on me. All I need to know is that they have.

                  “Wall Street had been doing business with pieces of paper; and now someone asked for a dollar, and it was discovered that the dollar had been mislaid.” ― Upton Sinclair

                  by gjohnsit on Fri Jun 14, 2013 at 08:05:36 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

          •  Make that "willful cluelessness" (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            AoT

            A classic form of magical thinking like this:

            The Bells of Hell go ting-a-ling-a-ling
            For you but not for me:
            For me the angels sing-a-ling-a-ling,
            They've got the goods for me.
            Oh! Death, where is thy sting-a-ling-a-ling?
            Oh! Grave, thy victory?
            The Bells of Hell go ting-a-ling-a-ling
            For you but not for me.  

            "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold...The best lack all conviction, while the worst Are full of passionate intensity" -W.B. Yeats

            by LucyandByron on Fri Jun 14, 2013 at 12:19:21 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

    •  And any author who simply presents (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      gjohnsit

      the text of a legal code and tries to pass it off as "the law" is clearly deluded about what the law really is. There are a lot of secret decisions about PRISM, that's part of the law. So no matter what statute he might like to cite it doesn't make that statute "the law".

      If debt were a moral issue then, lacking morals, corporations could never be in debt.

      by AoT on Fri Jun 14, 2013 at 11:42:49 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  According to today's (0+ / 0-)

    NYT, Snowden has provided the Chinese with detailed information about which systems of their's the the US has compromised.

    So much for the moral high ground.  

    Is President Obama the last moderate Republican?

    by al23 on Fri Jun 14, 2013 at 12:49:25 PM PDT

    •  There are all sorts of ways (0+ / 0-)

      our comment can be picked apart.
         But the most obvious way is this isn't about Snowden. This is about the NSA spying on us without warrents.

        Think about who is most motivated to make this about Snowden's character, and why they would want to do that.

      “Wall Street had been doing business with pieces of paper; and now someone asked for a dollar, and it was discovered that the dollar had been mislaid.” ― Upton Sinclair

      by gjohnsit on Fri Jun 14, 2013 at 01:17:31 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Because World Net Daily (1+ / 1-)
    Recommended by:
    Tony Situ
    Hidden by:
    gjohnsit

    is such a bastion of facts!

    Check your links.  'backdoor'.  

    Here's something more dependable:

    http://www.vanityfair.com/...

    http://www.zdnet.com/...

    https://medium.com/...

    •  World net daily? (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      gjohnsit

      There was no link to World Net Daily.

      If debt were a moral issue then, lacking morals, corporations could never be in debt.

      by AoT on Fri Jun 14, 2013 at 03:50:42 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Not even a link to a link to World Net Daily (0+ / 0-)

        Not sure what he's talking about

        “Wall Street had been doing business with pieces of paper; and now someone asked for a dollar, and it was discovered that the dollar had been mislaid.” ― Upton Sinclair

        by gjohnsit on Fri Jun 14, 2013 at 08:09:03 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  I get it (0+ / 0-)

        Check the links he then posts. All of them are pro-NSA spying links.
           His strategy is to make a wild claim that he has no intention of backing up, and then direct people to articles that have nothing to do with his claim, but that back up his agenda.
            It's the strategy of someone being paid to push a political agenda.

           I would like to HR him, but I'm not sure what the DKos rules say on this matter.

        “Wall Street had been doing business with pieces of paper; and now someone asked for a dollar, and it was discovered that the dollar had been mislaid.” ― Upton Sinclair

        by gjohnsit on Fri Jun 14, 2013 at 08:12:48 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

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