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This will be short.

Ahem, what's happening to us?  Did President Obama's remarks on Friday set this current round off? I truly hope not because the phrase 'there's no place left for us' sounds eerily and disturbingly familiar and not in a good way at all.

This will be very short because for the second danggone time, I accidentally deleted a draft.  GRRRRRRRRRRR.  I'm not used to this diary making stuff, especially 2 in one day, but this has to be said now.

IMO, right now the difference between us Progressives and the Tea Party is that for them, dysfunction works well because it's cohesive.

Dysfunctional Progressives is not cohesive with us and that is why we collectively fail.  

While we persist in having these round robin arguments over who as a Progressive has been more hurt, the right has taken its most delusional discussions that should have stayed behind closed doors after the Civil Rights Era and moved them to the state houses and into Congress, fueled by equally delusional people and institutions with way too much time and money on their hands.  

This is why Trayvon Martin is dead right now -- thanks in part to the delusional laws passed by delusional public officials who were elected by delusional citizens who are under the delusion that they speak for the majority in this country.

And we debate on Daily Kos who has the right to be more hurt.

The truth is that there are a lot of folk on here who are 'disillusioned' because they have been hurt.  Not to acknowledge this would be unfair to them and to everyone else here on DK.

They are hurting and have been hurting for some time.  Take away the skin color and the policies that are causing this pain is a hurt we all as Progressives can understand.  That is why diaries like the one that is on the rec list now are consistently supported by the same individuals day in and day out.

I challenged the diarist on today's rec list to view this a little differently:

You are wrong because I agree with you.  Just because I don't choose to take the tone that you and others do about President Obama doesn't mean that I do not take note of what's going on here.  It is not white privilege to complain about government abuse.  That is simply absurd.

It is EVERYONE'S privilege to do so, just like it is everyone's privilege to acknowledge what the government gets right.

Or not.  But don't hang your argument on race like this because you don't do yourself any favors by protesting in isolation, because that is where you will end up.

Marginalizing yourself out of the equation of solutions.

The problem right now in this country is that our collective sense of cynicism, indifference, anger and lack of collective focus as Progressives is why we fail.  I think that being pure to your word IS A GOOD THING.  It keeps us targeted.

But being pure in isolation is extremism because you don't possess the tools to be persuasive without being equally annoying to offensive.  That is the real problem with your argument.

Now it is up to you how you choose to receive what I said.  You can either figure out a way to help Progressives build a better, more cohesive and inclusive coalition or you can build yourself an island and shout from the distance.

If we as Progressive don't find a way to talk to one another better than this, then we ALL will be on separate islands shouting from the distance while the Tea Party and its insanity agenda takes us over.

This here on here on DK -- has got to stop.

UPDATE important: Oh wow.  Okay.  Thanks for those who have explained what the hell happened here.  Apparently Markos made a comment about white privilege in one of his diaries and I'm going to find it and read it.  I don't want to comment further until I've read it myself.

I will not call the diarist out by handle, but I think he would do well to update his diary to reflect that he is reacting to this because we could do without this level of  community deterioration that is now going on in that diary.

Originally posted to smoothnmellow on Sat Jul 20, 2013 at 11:20 AM PDT.

Also republished by The Federation.

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Comment Preferences

  •  I don't get it. I thought all progressives would (10+ / 0-)

    welcome Obama's Trayvon speech. What I'm I missing?

  •  There is no split. (28+ / 0-)

    It's a video game.  A few hundred people are mad because Markos disagreed with them.  Drama. drama.  

    Meanwhile in the real world, people are demonstrating for Trayvon today.  The drama here is mostly because it is all they have -- fighting on a blog.    

    There is a whole world out there, and it needs change.  Drama on a blog is not worth worrying about.

    Let them play.  It's all they have.  

    Join us on the Black Kos front porch to review news and views written from a black pov—everyone is welcome.

    by TomP on Sat Jul 20, 2013 at 11:29:41 AM PDT

    •  Is that what this is about? (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      doroma, kalmoth, TomP

      I don't know what Kos said, but my goodness.  Throwing white privilege into their arguments is greatly disturbing.

      And distressing.  Wow.  Just wow.

      •  umm, Kos was the one (9+ / 0-)

        who "threw white privilege" into the argument.

        Dogs from the street can have all the desirable qualities that one could want from pet dogs. Most adopted stray dogs are usually humble and exceptionally faithful to their owners as if they are grateful for this kindness. -- H.M. Bhumibol Adulyadej

        by corvo on Sat Jul 20, 2013 at 11:35:59 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  To be honest, Kos is not the first (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        joanneleon, JosephK74, 4kedtongue

        to offer the false choice. Tim Wise also attempted to claim whether there's a rising police state in the US or not is also white privilege and trying to pit one against the other

        Which again is a false choice

        People of color are hurt by the NSA relevations probably even more so than whites since that same racist structure is just going to be overlayed on top of whatever security state arises

        •  I'm going to read Kos' comments myself (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          wilderness voice, WB Reeves

          and then I will decide that I think he meant.  As for Tim Wise, while I don't always do a careful read on his commentary, I never got that impression from him and that is not how I would interpret his remarks.

          And Bruh1, people of color have ALWAYS BEEN HURT BY WHAT THE GOVERNMENT HAS BEEN DOING.

          Let me refresh you on a little dirty government secret about the Tulsa Race Riots.  You know story well -- I'm sure you do.  Post depression, a lot of white people lost everything they had in the markets.  Well blacks who were living in segregrated towns like the one near Tulsa didn't.  The little they had was more than what others had because of that segregration.  In fact this town was thriving, thus coined 'the Black Wall Street'.

          Oops.  Can't have that.  Town burned down over a 'race riot'.

          The ugly secret here is that the town was bombed by the U.S. government (allegedly, from a read of historical documents on the matter).

          So don't tell me about people of color being disproportionately affected by the NSA because it has always been that way and whatever goes down, we are the first in line to be rounded up.

          I do think black folk and others of color do already know this.

          What I think is that this is a shock to others who didn't.

    •  And I would be out there (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      doroma, TomP, WB Reeves

      if I hadn't injuried my knee.  Rats.

    •  No, they angry because (9+ / 0-)

      he used the false choice of white privilege to explain away why he didn't care about the NSA/FISA issue

      its a false choice for several reasons

      1. the spying is likely to affected people of color
      2. there is white privilege, and it can be seen in the Zimmmerman case, and it creates the image that there's no real white privilege because kos's use of it is such an obvious change of subject.

      The frustration is over the manipulation of what are two legitimate issues pitting them against each other when in fact they aren't

      Ultimately it underscores the problem with this site

      No one here is really at bottom interested in real change

      if they were, they wouldn't be framing it as either one address white privilege or one addresses spying

      Its an absurd Sophie's choice argument that typical of Democratic v Republican framing.

      •  My adversity to the NSA stuff (3+ / 0-)

        very much comes from my activism in the Latino community, trying to seek amnesty for undocumented people. I believe that the NSA stuff will only aid deportation efforts handsomely. So there's some truth to your statement. It doesn't sit well with me.

        Beyond that, I've also been concerned about the impact it has on Muslim-Americans.

        Finally, very much on people living abroad, outside of the US, in repressive regimes where finding out that certain people are dissidents, the "wrong" religion, or whatever would result in potential human rights issues. If the NSA is spying internationally, and they are from what we are hearing, then the non-domestic implications are really problematic.

        Not to mention the economic issues surrounding the desirability of American tech companies for a global buyer. Without some guarantee of privacy, these could be devalued, and that could result in yet more job losses in the US.

        Thus my continued opposition to the NSA. I don't see the two issues in conflict at all. I'm outraged by the treatment of African-Americans in the US, period, and wish that to stop, cease, end, end the incessant DWB, racial profiling, disproportionate incarceration, and institutional racism in our system. I suggest that outrage is not really exceptional, although more white people should share it with me. I'm glad that there are mass protests for racial justice today, one way or another, and hope to God this country wakes itself up because a lot of people are asleep at the wheel, or worse, just willing to accept fundamental wrongs.

        Click the ♥ to join us on the Black Kos front porch to review news & views written from a black pov - everyone is welcome.

        by mahakali overdrive on Sat Jul 20, 2013 at 12:01:10 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  In fact, there have been several (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          corvo, JosephK74, 4kedtongue

          articles on how the immigration bill includes components that (1) make path to citizenship a decade or more long process (if ever) while (2) adding more layers of power to the security state

          This is not even getting into the corporate give aways in the bill, etc

          So, as  someone with a Latin background, I find Kos's position on the subject extremely counter productive

          The entire frame is a false one to describe this as white privilege  if one is concerned about the police state powers that are arising in this c ountry

          •  Like you, I definitely don't support (2+ / 0-)

            what I've seen in the immigration bill. In fact, a friend of mine just went to DC about a month or two ago as part of coalition of Progressive Democrats. He met with the President, and he did not have anything nice to say about the current proposals when he came home. His concerns struck me as extremely valid since I've always known him to be a very intelligent, albeit young, activist who is extremely motivated to reform the deportation and documentation process. It left me troubled. But that's beyond the scope of this diary.

            Click the ♥ to join us on the Black Kos front porch to review news & views written from a black pov - everyone is welcome.

            by mahakali overdrive on Sat Jul 20, 2013 at 12:16:59 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  And the scary part is as conservative (4+ / 0-)

              as the Senate bill is, the House version will be even more conservative as far as path to citizenship and the security state issues (again not even including how bat shit its likely to be with the corporate giveaways)

              I wish I could find that argument on the subject- It was over at Naked Capitalism as a link, but I don't remember more than that

              •  We need to really keep discussing this (0+ / 0-)

                in a more public conversation. I see a lot of people ready to accept this bill. But this isn't what will move the arc of social justice in a positive direction, nor will it reduce the kinds of social justice and human rights issues that we're currently facing. And we're all complicit in this if we don't speak up on behalf of those who literally have no voice in our system.

                So I want to suggest that we really use our lungs, and that we not cave on this, and that we explain what a good immigration bill looks like. That's crucial. This is a place for a certain level of idealism because such major reform needs to happen. In this case, the Democratic Party holds a pretty good ace card in that Latinos are a growing, yet coveted, vote, and a majority would support a more comprehensive immigration reform bill (in most cases; I'm not stereotyping but speaking from stats that I've read on the matter over the years). We're foolish to throw that leverage away when it concerns what is a human rights issue.

                Click the ♥ to join us on the Black Kos front porch to review news & views written from a black pov - everyone is welcome.

                by mahakali overdrive on Sun Jul 21, 2013 at 06:03:38 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

    •  Wow, Tom (4+ / 0-)

      75534 4-ever or until dk5

      by NearlyNormal on Sat Jul 20, 2013 at 11:49:48 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  I think there is (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      kalmoth, TomP, raptavio, doroma

      See my comment below.

      Click the ♥ to join us on the Black Kos front porch to review news & views written from a black pov - everyone is welcome.

      by mahakali overdrive on Sat Jul 20, 2013 at 11:53:06 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Well said TomP! (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      TomP, raptavio, doroma

      This is a time to shine a light on SYG and concealed carry laws, as well as on white privilege, and any distraction from that is a distraction from the possibility of real, progressive change.

      I would tip you, but the man took away my tips.

      by Tortmaster on Sat Jul 20, 2013 at 12:02:03 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  So tell us all about the "real, progressive change (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        joanneleon

        " being effected by the NSA and its elected enablers.

        Dogs from the street can have all the desirable qualities that one could want from pet dogs. Most adopted stray dogs are usually humble and exceptionally faithful to their owners as if they are grateful for this kindness. -- H.M. Bhumibol Adulyadej

        by corvo on Sat Jul 20, 2013 at 12:04:48 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Tell me about all the real progressive change (6+ / 0-)

          you have accomplished by focusing on the NSA to the exclusion of all else, and refusing to look at any other issue except through that prism.

          "Much of movement conservatism is a con and the base is the marks." -- Chris Hayes

          by raptavio on Sat Jul 20, 2013 at 12:17:05 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  ? (0+ / 0-)
            you have accomplished by focusing on the NSA to the exclusion of all else
            Desperate, but unsurprising.

            I suppose we should all view it exclusively through the prism of "white privilege"?

            Dogs from the street can have all the desirable qualities that one could want from pet dogs. Most adopted stray dogs are usually humble and exceptionally faithful to their owners as if they are grateful for this kindness. -- H.M. Bhumibol Adulyadej

            by corvo on Sat Jul 20, 2013 at 12:21:41 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  I'm sure you didn't mean (4+ / 0-)

              to suggest that white privilege isn't a real thing by putting it in quotes, I hope.

              Unlike some of the purists, I can focus on issues related to racism AND issues related to privacy, at separate times. Most of us have learned to both walk and chew gum.

              "Much of movement conservatism is a con and the base is the marks." -- Chris Hayes

              by raptavio on Sat Jul 20, 2013 at 12:25:55 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  re: your first paragraph: (0+ / 0-)

                no.

                re: your second: Does that include creating straw men?

                Dogs from the street can have all the desirable qualities that one could want from pet dogs. Most adopted stray dogs are usually humble and exceptionally faithful to their owners as if they are grateful for this kindness. -- H.M. Bhumibol Adulyadej

                by corvo on Sat Jul 20, 2013 at 12:44:58 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

  •  There is one more factor... (13+ / 0-)

    that the author of this diary did not consider (probably out of kindness).

    Now, I try to be a kinder person too, but I have to say the following.

    No part of the political spectrum is free from demagogues. No person is fully resistant to demagoguery (whether one buys into it or tries to refute it). Some of the diaries that get clicks and recs on this site are, in my opinion, classical (that's my kind and polite way to say "stale") examples of demagoguery.  

    Demagogues always get a following because they appeal to popular prejudices, arguing with demagogues is futile, and regardless of the case the demagogue espouses, for the demagogue, it's all ultimately about the demagogue.

    What can be done about it? Should anything be done about it?

    I think an "ignore" button would be nice.

  •  It has nothing to do with Obama's speech (6+ / 0-)

    it has to do with the false choice being used to claim that either one wants to address white privilege or one wants to address the shift of the coutnry to a police state

    In actuality, there's no conflict between the two

    The truth is that black people living in a current police state is not going to be helped by turnign the rest of the country into a police state, and in fact, trains resources from social programs to instruments that will be used against us such as local policing actions

    Under the current process, for example, in NYC, the police authorities here work heavily with the federal government to people the build great police powers in the city, and the primary targets will almost certainly be Muslims and POC

    In the case of the POC, once you give the local authorities these extra tools they are going to use  them for other purposes

    We have already seen that leaking from national security to criminal investigations in other areas

  •  It's a Green Party/Dem divide (10+ / 0-)

    in many cases. In some, it's a Libertarian/Dem divide, strangely enough.

    I'm not going to elaborate. But my take on much of the divide has very little to do with Progressivism and more to do with Party affiliation.

    Democrats will always argue with Third Party folks. On this site and elsewhere.

    Click the ♥ to join us on the Black Kos front porch to review news & views written from a black pov - everyone is welcome.

    by mahakali overdrive on Sat Jul 20, 2013 at 11:52:39 AM PDT

    •  There's nothing Libertarian or Progressive (5+ / 0-)

      or green about supporting either the NSA or police actions of the state

      If anything, the argument kos used, white privilege, might fall under Liberetarian since he claims that his views, but only as they see it as not a real issue since their only concern is government action, not private

      So i just think ultimately what this is about is kos defending Democratic Party even when they do something wrong by using a legitimate issue to pit against another legitimate issue

      It was a b.s false choice

      Somehwere the site stopped worrying about better, and just focused on democratic

      •  Unfortunately, mahakali overdrive (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        WisePiper

        is correct, and with each day ever more so.  If you support "the NSA or police actions of the state" and identify complaints about it as so much "white privilege," you're a Democrat and vice versa.  That really leaves those upset with said police state behavior with ever fewer options inside the Democratic Party.

        Dogs from the street can have all the desirable qualities that one could want from pet dogs. Most adopted stray dogs are usually humble and exceptionally faithful to their owners as if they are grateful for this kindness. -- H.M. Bhumibol Adulyadej

        by corvo on Sat Jul 20, 2013 at 12:06:58 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  It's conflation (5+ / 0-)

      of two entirely different issues. That's what this diary is.  It's not about partisanship.  Plenty of life long registered Democrats are strongly opposed to the massive surveillance system. All you would have had to do is to watch the House Judiciary committee meeting last week on FISA Authorizations to understand that.  Members of both parties are really outraged about it and threatened not to renew PATRIOT Act section 215 at all, or to repeal that and FISA Amendments Act 702 as well, before the renewal comes up.

      Democratic Senators have introduced legislation.  Many people in Congress on the D aisle are working on legislation and have spoken out about this, along with Democratic party activists, party members, partisan bloggers, you name it.  

      And in addition, there are people from all parties who are outraged about it.  

      It's the least partisan think I've seen in a long time.  It's decidedly not just people with libertarian leanings, though I know that's a new convenient talking point for the rapid response teams.


      "Justice is a commodity"

      by joanneleon on Sat Jul 20, 2013 at 12:09:41 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Beautiful comment, except (3+ / 0-)

        please don't wager any money as to the sincerity of the Congresscritters protesting the Security State's behaviors.  If they thought their legislation stood any chance of success, I doubt they'd be proposing it.

        Remember that the last time Congress got all in a tizzy over Security State abuses, it ended up legalizing most of the behavior (namely, Nixon's) that had previously been illegal.

        Dogs from the street can have all the desirable qualities that one could want from pet dogs. Most adopted stray dogs are usually humble and exceptionally faithful to their owners as if they are grateful for this kindness. -- H.M. Bhumibol Adulyadej

        by corvo on Sat Jul 20, 2013 at 12:13:14 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  I know (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          corvo

          I think some will stick with it though. Two members of the Black Caucus offered some of the best questions and statements during that hearing.

          I don't know how many senators will stick with it, though Wyden and Udall likely will.  But campaign season is coming up and the party leadership will use the help with fund raising as a stick.


          "Justice is a commodity"

          by joanneleon on Sat Jul 20, 2013 at 12:15:29 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  If it's not Colorado's Udall, maybe. (0+ / 0-)

            I wouldn't trust my Udall any farther than I can throw him.  Don't know about Wyden.  And your last sentence speaks volumes.

            Dogs from the street can have all the desirable qualities that one could want from pet dogs. Most adopted stray dogs are usually humble and exceptionally faithful to their owners as if they are grateful for this kindness. -- H.M. Bhumibol Adulyadej

            by corvo on Sat Jul 20, 2013 at 12:20:26 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

      •  I saw partisanship (10+ / 0-)

        I do know how some people on this site don't happen to be Democrats in the real world. I think many people here happen to be aware of this. It's not an arguable issue when it's a fact.

        I wasn't offering an interpretation based off peoples' statements and positions. I was observing a dynamic on this site when some vocal, Third Party posters talk to Democrats and everyone calls themselves "Progressive." The term "Progressive," I was pointing out, is not the place where there is conflict; the conflict is often at the level of Party affiliation.

        And that is a fact.

        Click the ♥ to join us on the Black Kos front porch to review news & views written from a black pov - everyone is welcome.

        by mahakali overdrive on Sat Jul 20, 2013 at 12:13:34 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  The number of people (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          corvo, WisePiper, JosephK74

          on this site who aren't Democrats is decidedly small, and even if they aren't, they would not be here if they didn't have a history of voting for Democrats. I don't know why you constantly obsess about that.  It's like it's your answer to everything. A complete obsession.


          "Justice is a commodity"

          by joanneleon on Sat Jul 20, 2013 at 12:16:47 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  I concur (3+ / 0-)

          If you have a faction calling Obama a dictator, and the Democratic Party sell outs and traitors on a regular basis, is it reasonable to assume those same people will line up in the voting booth on election day to vote for those same sell outs and traitors they decry? I don't think so.

          Must we have to rely on them to be hypocrites for selling out their ideals, if they so earnestly believe them? Or might it be logical to assume that there is indeed a partisanship divide?

          I've seen some hardboiled eggs in my time, but you're about twenty minutes

          by harrylimelives on Sat Jul 20, 2013 at 12:30:02 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  From what I've seen (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            WisePiper, JosephK74, allenjo

            the talk about traitors is coming from the Obama camp, not directed at it.  It's true that there is a lot of talk about selling out directed at it though, deservedly so.

            As for your words about hypocrites and selling out ideals, it's almost amusing, it's so pointed in the wrong direction. We are talking about people who railed against the surveillance state when Bush was president, and who ran their campaigns using opposition to it.  Are you sure you're not getting things mixed up?


            "Justice is a commodity"

            by joanneleon on Sat Jul 20, 2013 at 12:36:49 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  What if this isn't speculation (7+ / 0-)

              but factual observation?

              Okay, done with this thrilling round of interpretative caterwauling since the comment was, again, not an interpretative claim but a factual observation which is not a point of potential dispute, but which could potentially help clue some people in to the source of some of the ideologically disparate arguments here: differing partisanship.

              In other words, we actually don't all want the same things, we aren't all here for the same reasons, and in fact, coalitions can't be had across some ideological lines.

              Click the ♥ to join us on the Black Kos front porch to review news & views written from a black pov - everyone is welcome.

              by mahakali overdrive on Sat Jul 20, 2013 at 12:41:41 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Oh no disagreement there (4+ / 0-)

                on this point.  

                In other words, we actually don't all want the same things, we aren't all here for the same reasons
                I'd also say that the things we believed in and fought for up until five years ago are entirely different for some of us. Others have remained consistent, and have been pummeled for that and are absurdly accused of being third party people, Greens, Ron Paulites, Republican plants, etc. but in fact, we've been registered Democrats for decades who have stood for the same things all along.  

                Also I don't disagree with the fact that coalitions are forming around the surveillance state issues, and I think that's a good thing. In order to stand with someone on one issue doesn't mean I'm going to marry them or vote for them.  It just means we agree on one issue. Simple as that. Doesn't make me a libertarian or a Green or anything else, though, but for the record I don't see anything wrong with third party dkos members joining in discussions since third party members or undeclareds have often voted for Dems all their lives. I have more than one friend and a family member who falls into this category. They just don't want to declare a party, or in a few cases they've left the D party because it has gone too far over to the dark side.  There are a lot of other people who are still registered Ds who feel the same way but just haven't officially switched their affiliation.


                "Justice is a commodity"

                by joanneleon on Sat Jul 20, 2013 at 12:54:17 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Excellent points, joanneleon. (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Just Bob, joanneleon

                  We who've consistently espoused traditional Democratic principles over the years are considered traitors to the party when we refuse to jettison those principles for the sake of supporting our elected "representatives."

                  Each of our comments is a butterfly in the Amazon. Be ever mindful of the hurricanes we spawn.

                  by WisePiper on Sat Jul 20, 2013 at 02:29:29 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

            •  I think you misunderstand my point (9+ / 0-)

              If a person spends all of their time railing against the Democratic Party, it's leaders, our president on the basis of their personal ethics, and life experiences, on the basis of their own strict moral code...would it not be hypocrisy for them to cast a vote for those same "war criminals" and "tyrants"? and proponents of a"fascist police state"?

              And why on earth would you remain a member of a political party that you are so diametrically opposed to on the most significant matters in your life?

              That's the trouble with absolutism.

              I've seen some hardboiled eggs in my time, but you're about twenty minutes

              by harrylimelives on Sat Jul 20, 2013 at 12:50:34 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Well I guess it depends (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                corvo, JosephK74

                I know that I grappled with that for a long time regarding the 2012 election.  But most people seem to have come to the conclusion, though they knew they were voting for people who committed, or enabled, or ignored war crimes, voting for the R was even worse.

                And as for the issue of spending more of your time criticizing your party, I think that is relative and depends entirely on the actions of the party.  I am almost certain that you will find that most or all of the people who do more criticizing than praising right now, were strongly supportive of candidates and Congresses in past years, when they were on the side of issues that are more aligned with the party platform.  It wasn't until they went to the dark side that the criticisms began to dominate their conversations.


                "Justice is a commodity"

                by joanneleon on Sat Jul 20, 2013 at 12:58:29 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

              •  The same reason the Reagan Republicans (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                corvo, joanneleon

                who lost for over a decade stay in the GOP. To move the center to where you are.

              •  what you miss (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                joanneleon

                is that we have a standing chance of persuading the party to enact meaningful legislation and policy.  Hence all the criticism.  It's a question of getting our elected representatives to do the right thing.

                •  I've never known anyone (3+ / 0-)

                  To be receptive dialog I've read here from so called persuaders, the code pink approach is more self destructive than helpful. The funniest, most ironic damn part is that I agree with you about reigning in the NSA! I just don't agree with the messengers, Snowden and Greenwald, or the method by which they're doing it. Fruit from the poison tree is tainted and earns fair skepticism.

                  So, there we stand. For five years, we've been inundated with a nearly steady stream of conscious insults and threats against this president from the right, everything from birth certificates to witchdoctor emails to the fucking antichrist, a guy standing up in the state of the union and screaming "you lie" and suddenly this merry band comes along from the left and adopts nearly identical rhetoric, and we're supposed to be receptive somehow to whatever their message is? I've read multiple posts about impeachment here, for chrissakes.

                  Consensus can't be reached and ultimately, nothing of merit will get accomplished because of a severe messaging problem. Fair, not fair, them's the breaks.

                  I've seen some hardboiled eggs in my time, but you're about twenty minutes

                  by harrylimelives on Sat Jul 20, 2013 at 04:49:17 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

            •  From what I've seen? Give me a break. (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Lying eyes
              From what I've seen the talk about traitors is coming from the Obama camp, not directed at it.
              Really.  If you are not from the Obama camp, please do tell us where you are from because I doubt that anyone else has a clue.  I might add that no one outside of this site gives a damn.  

              I know I have been cussing a lot lately.  I'm sort of thinking it's healthy.  

              In the time it took Adam Lanza to reload, eleven children escaped. What if...

              by Sixty Something on Sat Jul 20, 2013 at 02:54:00 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  By Obama camp (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                DeadHead

                I mean the "my President Obama right or wrong" camp, the Obamacrats as opposed to the Democrats. But I'm pretty sure you knew exactly what I meant, and just wanted to rant at somebody.  It's pretty common nowadays, the misdirected anger.  Obamacrats can't get angry with him so they lash out at their fellow Democrats who bring things up that the Obamacrats want to pretend isn't happening.  Cuss all you like. Makes no difference to me, with the exception of one or two words.


                "Justice is a commodity"

                by joanneleon on Sat Jul 20, 2013 at 04:03:24 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  And this is also a problem (6+ / 0-)

                  Calling people Obamacrats or 'bots' is just as disruptive as saying that someone is a racist because they criticize the President.  

                  There are no Obamacrats here.  We are all either Democrats or Progressives of various stripes.  When you reduce your position to such name calling, you are deeping the divide and preventing real coalitions to form that could lead to actionable measures.

                  •  That is a ridiculous statement (0+ / 0-)
                    Calling people Obamacrats or 'bots' is just as disruptive as saying that someone is a racist because they criticize the President.  
                    I don't use the term Obamabots because it's been made clear that it's offensive. Though it's interesting that the same people who say it's offensive don't hesitate to frequently use even more offensive terms to describe the critics.  Just another case of rank hypocrisy.  I've never seen anyone declare the term Obamacrat to be offensive or off limits. Why don't you guys come up with a list of descriptive terms that you won't accept instead of just objecting to every single one of them and constantly moving the goal posts?

                    And your assertion that "Obamacrat" is more offensive than calling someone a racist is just over the top absurd and dishonest.  There's no way you could really believe that.


                    "Justice is a commodity"

                    by joanneleon on Sun Jul 21, 2013 at 03:56:25 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                •  You give yourself away when you say the (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Wordsinthewind

                  "Obamacrats."  "Obamacrats as opposed to Democrats.?"

                  What libertarian or republican camp do you come from?

                  Believe me, you can't even imagine the cuss words that I would like to throw at some on this site.  

                  So I will just say it out loud, I'm guessing that those words you want to say are FU?  Am I right?

                  I have no use for this kind of debate.   It might be time that the "Liberal/Progressive/ Democratic" party came to terms with the fact that they have their own teaper contingency.  It ain't pretty.  It could get us in a shit load of trouble if we don't watch out.

                  It might behoove some here to ask if they are a part of the problem or the solution.

                  In the time it took Adam Lanza to reload, eleven children escaped. What if...

                  by Sixty Something on Sat Jul 20, 2013 at 05:26:56 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Gave herself away, how exactly? (0+ / 0-)

                    In trying to distinguish between those who end up twisting and contorting their positions so that they justify anything Obama does, even if it runs counter to what Democrats have stood for, and, you know, actual Democrats who remain true to the foundation upon which the party has been built?

                    Like those who say NSA spying was bad under Bush, but no big deal under Obama.

                    Or those who think chained CPI is a pragmatic solution, as opposed to those who recognize it for the SS cut that it is.

                    Would "ardent Obama supporters" be better? It's kind of a lot to type out each time.




                    Somebody has to do something, and it's just incredibly pathetic that it has to be us. ~ J. Garcia

                    by DeadHead on Sun Jul 21, 2013 at 12:25:53 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  That is exactly (0+ / 0-)

                      what I meant by "Obamacrat". Thanks. And I disagree with smoothnmellow when he says that they are Democrats or progressives because these policies are not like anything that either Democrats or progressives have ever supported before and were decidedly against the very same things when Bush did or tried to do it.


                      "Justice is a commodity"

                      by joanneleon on Sun Jul 21, 2013 at 03:59:14 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                  •  LOL (0+ / 0-)

                    Go find someone else to rant at.   I have no desire to say FU to you. I'm not even the slightest bit angry at you or anyone else in this conversation. These things you are coming up with are imaginings.

                    This seems to me to be the exact kind of misdirected anger that I've talked about with others.  Fierce defenders of this party and admin. who, because of their fealty, can't direct the anger they have toward the object of their fealty, so they shoot it out at other people all the time.  

                    It would not have mattered what word I used or what I wrote. You've got anger to spray at somebody and I was the target you chose today.  I knew that before I responded to your silly question that you didn't really want an answer to, you just wanted to bully or rant at someone and then pretend to be the victim. It's a textbook case of what happens here all the time.

                    If you're looking for the roots of the problems, perhaps you should look at the members of our party, your allies, who readily accept all of these right-wing policies and support the elected Democrats no matter what they do.  Yes, that's what is wrecking the party and your finger pointing and wanting to banish critics from the party won't help anything.  Do you even realize how absurd it is to point at me and suggest that I'm Republican or libertarian when most of my criticisms are about the fact that this party keeps moving to the right, to the corporatist position, while you are the one defending this steady march toward conservative Republican policies and cheering on the people who do it?


                    "Justice is a commodity"

                    by joanneleon on Sun Jul 21, 2013 at 03:50:59 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

  •  You're conflating (5+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    corvo, Just Bob, WisePiper, JosephK74, DeadHead

    two entirely different issues.  The rec list diary that you refer to was a backlash at a comment by the site owner last night, and the subject of the question posed to him was entirely the NSA, not Trayvon Martin.

    I have no idea why you'd want to conflate the two issues.  The diarist's position, as far as I know, on Trayvon is the same as most people's position here, that justice was not served.


    "Justice is a commodity"

    by joanneleon on Sat Jul 20, 2013 at 12:04:17 PM PDT

    •  "As far as I know" (8+ / 0-)

      is the problem.

      Because people like the aforementioned diarist will not, it seems, devote time and effort to anything other than those areas where the President is less than ideologically what we'd like, or pursues policies most of us don't like.

      When he's on our side, these people offer silence at best, topic changes to those areas where he's not at worst.

      "Much of movement conservatism is a con and the base is the marks." -- Chris Hayes

      by raptavio on Sat Jul 20, 2013 at 12:19:38 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Joanneleon, I am sure that (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      doroma, kalmoth, ballerina X

      you have seen my update by now.  You might want to comment to OPOL that it would be helpful to update HIS DIARY TO SAY THAT.

      •  No, I hadn't seen (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        DeadHead

        your update when I wrote that comment. It wasn't there at the time.

        It's really clear that OPOL was responding to kos' comment last night.  He doesn't need to spell it out, imho.  And why are you going ALL CAPS on this?


        "Justice is a commodity"

        by joanneleon on Sat Jul 20, 2013 at 01:51:17 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Because he needs to do it Joan. (5+ / 0-)

          Because it's NOT CLEAR.  That's what I'm trying to get across to you.  You assumed that everyone read Kos' comments, so you thought it should have been obvious to everyone else, but that is not the case.  It's not clear.  When others pointed out to me what had happened, I felt an obligation to clarify my diary.

          I don't get why that same obligation doesn't apply to him.  It would help matters a lot.

          •  The reason (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            DeadHead

            that you needed to update your diary was entirely different, just saying.  You got it all wrong.  There are more than a thousand comments in his diary and the commenters seem to understand exactly what he was saying.  


            "Justice is a commodity"

            by joanneleon on Sat Jul 20, 2013 at 03:54:09 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Oh stop it (4+ / 0-)

              A significant segment of those comments are ongoing arguments between commenters who either agree or disagree with the diary. Pretending that the total number of comments represents a collective, uniformed reading of the diary is a willful distortion.

              Nothing human is alien to me.

              by WB Reeves on Sat Jul 20, 2013 at 04:00:34 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  Actually Joan, I didn't 'get it all wrong' (4+ / 0-)

              because the basic premise of my position is still valid, even without the explanation that OPOL was pissed off at Markos.

              What is happening to us is still a valid question.  The Progressive community, at least on DK, is dysfunctional and without cohesion.  Do you deny this?  Do you not understand that we get no where with these circular diaries?

              There are a thousand comments in his diary Joan because people are ranting and arguing up a storm.  People don't tend to post hundreds of comments in a diary unless they are arguing, ranting and HR'ing folk.   Now I know you aren't this obtuse to understand at least that much.

              Come on now, really.

              Let's quit with the mincing here.  All OPOL has to do is provide the necessary context to clarify his diary.  If he can't do that, then I'm right to assume that he means what he means and then all of what I have said stands.

  •  It's not as dire as some of you believe (9+ / 0-)

    Here's the deal: there are about 100 people on this site who constantly fight with each other no matter what the topic is.

    There are rivalries here that have gone on for years and will continue for years and they've mostly devolved into the personal. If you strip their arguments down, they all more or less agree, they just don't like "tone" or "style" or what they perceive to be an allegiance to an outside force.

    Ya know, it used to be a big deal when Boise State would play University of Idaho. The hardcore fans would get freaky intense over that rivalry, and god help you if you were caught wearing colors other than orange and blue or black and gold on game day. That made you squishy.

    Honestly, the fights on this site are no less ridiculous.

    Who cares who is the underdog, who is the favorite, what are the odds? Most of us just want to watch the game, drink beer and eat junk food.

    We're all here because we DO share the same goals and hopes for our country. Don't get distracted by those who are more concerned with what team has better stats. It's a hobby. All of this fighting is a hobby. There's no more reason to get pissed at one side or another for simply being on that side than there is at getting pissed off at me when I'm wearing my Broncos hoodie.

    Yes, I suck at metaphors :-)

    P.S. I am not a crackpot.

    by BoiseBlue on Sat Jul 20, 2013 at 12:05:44 PM PDT

  •  By the time I got to the referenced diary ... (8+ / 0-)

    ... there were so many comments, I decided not to bother, as I figured I'd just get lost amidst all the shouting.

    My problem with that and other similar diaries is twofold:

    (1) Nowhere do they ever offer solutions to the corrupt system they're complaining about. One commenter in the diary now topping the rec list suggested they work to get better people elected. The response was basically, "Don't vote - it only encourages them." That seems rather a strange position for someone who's railing about what an existential threat to democracy our current leadership is. Look at how many federal, state and local politicians identify with the Tea Party. Now ask yourself how many identify with Occupy Wall Street. Very few. Why? Because the Tea Party worked within the political framework, where as Occupy eschewed politics as a corrupt system which was beneath them. If you want to overthrow the current system, you have to work from within it, because even a movement as large as OWS became for a brief period of time will never reach the critical mass needed to overthrow it from the outside.

    (2) All of them have this sense of being "betrayed" or "sold out" by Barack Obama, as if they thought he really was the Socialist the Tea Party believes he is. I don't know about anyone else here, but I was never under any illusion that Barack Obama was as liberal as I am. Anyone who really listened to his breakout convention speech should have known he was, at best, a centrist.

    I was worried about the surveillance state way back in the 1980s, and I'm even more concerned about it now. I read Bartlett & Steele's America: What Went Wrong back then, too, and worried about growing inequality, and I'm even more concerned about it now. I stood up to the conservative publisher of the small weekly newspaper I worked for back then, and was rewarded with being allowed to write a column supporting the Air Traffic Controllers Strike, and I'm even more concerned about the erosion of worker's rights today. I was optimistic when Occupy Wall Street began, but I quickly became disillusioned with it. You can't change a corrupt, entrenched system by camping out in a park and yelling "Mic Check!" That's how you get noticed. That's how you build support. But then you have to channel that support into political action. The Tea Party learned that lesson. OWS did not. That's why the Tea Party succeeded in 2010, and OWS, for the most part, has failed. We need 100 Elizabeth Warrens in the Senate and 435 Alan Graysons in the House. But we're not going to get there by sitting in parks, yelling "Mic Check," worshipping Edward Snowden and complaining that Markos hurt our fee-fees.

    I vote we run Rick Scott out of Florida on a high-speed rail.

    by ObamOcala on Sat Jul 20, 2013 at 12:15:15 PM PDT

    •  I want to repeat this 1000 times (0+ / 0-)
      (2) All of them have this sense of being "betrayed" or "sold out" by Barack Obama, as if they thought he really was the Socialist the Tea Party believes he is. I don't know about anyone else here, but I was never under any illusion that Barack Obama was as liberal as I am. Anyone who really listened to his breakout convention speech should have known he was, at best, a centrist.
      As with all politicians, there are some campaign promises by Obama that were straight out not kept. Was this because he's just a politician, because he's a pathological liar, because conditions on the ground changed once he was in office, because he's beholden to his corporate overlords, or some combination of all of the above? There were some promises he was not able to keep due to political obstructionism by the GOP, And finally, there were some he was able to keep.

      I want/wanted someone who can win. Initially in 2008, I was for Edwards because I thought he had the best shot to win (dodged a bullet there....). When it came down to Clinton and Obama, I thought Obama had the best shot so that's who I supported. After seeing the damage done by Dub and Daddy on the Supreme Court, this was and remains my main concern.

      Admittedly, my bar for political sincerity is set pretty low and my political cynicism is quite high. The kind of people that enter politics in the first place and especially ones who can succeed nationally or even statewide are not usually from the warm and fuzzy, straight arrow, idealist, wing of the citizenry. So no, I'm not screaming for Obama's head or going all teabagger on him because I never expected a liberal agenda.

      "Someone just turned the lights on in the bar and the sexiest state doesn't look so pretty anymore" CA Treasurer Bill Lockyer on Texas budget mess

      by CaliSista on Sat Jul 20, 2013 at 07:38:52 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Now that you know you didn't know what you're (0+ / 0-)

    talking about, perhaps it would be best to delete this diary.

    Others have simply gotten old. I prefer to think I've been tempered by time.

    by Just Bob on Sat Jul 20, 2013 at 01:17:36 PM PDT

    •  Thanks, but no. (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      kalmoth

      I won't.  Unless of course OPOL decides to update his, because my point in the update still stands and is still valid.

      •  You started with a misconception and went (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        bruh1

        downhill from there. It isn't OPOL's fault you didn't know what he was talking about. Hundreds of others do/did understand. There's really no way to savage a diary based on an error. It only adds to the general level of confusion here.

        Others have simply gotten old. I prefer to think I've been tempered by time.

        by Just Bob on Sat Jul 20, 2013 at 01:51:35 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  No. I was misled by the premise of OPOL's diary. (3+ / 0-)

          Now look.  I'm not about to round robin with you about a diarist's obligations here.  Furthermore, yes, it is his fault if he is not clear because one cannot assume that everyone reads every diary -- let alone a comment within a diary on this website.

          Make it clear.  That's just common sense Bob.

          •  Life is so much easier if you ask questions when (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            bruh1

            you don't understand something rather than going off on a rant based on a misconception and then follow that with giving advise (or was it a demand?) based on that misconception and then following that with assigning the blame for your failings to someone else.

            Whew! Super run on sentence there.

            Of course I could be wrong.

            Others have simply gotten old. I prefer to think I've been tempered by time.

            by Just Bob on Sat Jul 20, 2013 at 02:26:56 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  It would be even easier if (4+ / 0-)

              folk take the time to explain themselves better from the start.  I don't know why this simple thing is so hard for you to understand.

              Even without the background, points I've made in this diary are still valid ones.  

              Do you really want a truly inclusive Progressive coalition or do you want to go tic for tac in a game of oneupmanship?

              •  Valid? (2+ / 1-)
                Recommended by:
                bruh1, DeadHead
                Hidden by:
                WB Reeves

                The diary you're criticizing had nothing to do the Trayvon Martin, contrary to your assumptions.

                Your diary is based on a falsehood. Viewing OPOL's diary from the perspective of your diary seems to paint OPOL as a racist.

                I would suggest one more time that you delete your diary. You're spreading false information.

                Others have simply gotten old. I prefer to think I've been tempered by time.

                by Just Bob on Sat Jul 20, 2013 at 03:57:02 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  I would suggest (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Wordsinthewind

                  you stop being dickish.

                  There's no falsehood in this diary. None. There's speculation as to motivation but it was not presented as fact.

                  Have a donut for false accusations of lying.

                  Nothing human is alien to me.

                  by WB Reeves on Sat Jul 20, 2013 at 04:10:16 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  The diary is based on a false premise. (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    bruh1

                    Just who is being dickish?

                    The diarist admitted he was wrong but blames his misunderstanding on OPOL.

                    He may have only been mistaken when he posted the diary. Now that he knows he was wrong is insisting on leaving the diary up a lie?

                    Others have simply gotten old. I prefer to think I've been tempered by time.

                    by Just Bob on Sat Jul 20, 2013 at 04:17:00 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                  •  There are some links you should follow (0+ / 0-)

                    I gave the diarist 5 links to explain OPOL's dairy. You can find them here:
                    http://www.dailykos.com/...

                    Read those links, read OPOL's diary, and read this diary again. Now do you see the problem?

                    There's little that can be done about willful ignorance.

                    Others have simply gotten old. I prefer to think I've been tempered by time.

                    by Just Bob on Sat Jul 20, 2013 at 04:37:09 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Bob, the diary is based on what OPOL wrote (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      Wordsinthewind

                      You could excise every reference to motivation and it wouldn't alter the criticism one whit.

                      I'm fully aware of Kos' Diary but awareness or ignorance of it simply doesn't effect the criticism above. Thanks for the links anyway though.

                      In any event, since the diarist admitted upfront that they didn't know what the motivation was, there is no falsehood. This makes your accusation totally indefensible. You owe the diarist an apology. Give one and I'll remove the Hr. Otherwise, I'm afraid not.  

                      Nothing human is alien to me.

                      by WB Reeves on Sat Jul 20, 2013 at 04:57:33 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  I owe neither you or the diarist anything. (0+ / 0-)

                        The diarist may have something worthwhile to say about the discord here, but there's no connection with OPOL's diary and the President's comments or Trayvon Martin.

                        Had he(?) posted his thoughts without the mistaken reference to OPOL's diary, my reaction might be very different. He has admitted his mistake. Why don't you?

                        Do you really think your HR is intimidating? Isn't it against the rules to HR for disagreement?

                        Others have simply gotten old. I prefer to think I've been tempered by time.

                        by Just Bob on Sat Jul 20, 2013 at 05:12:54 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                      •  Please don't respond to him anymore. (2+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        Wordsinthewind, WB Reeves

                        He is trolling my diary.

                        •  I don't troll. n/t (0+ / 0-)

                          Others have simply gotten old. I prefer to think I've been tempered by time.

                          by Just Bob on Sat Jul 20, 2013 at 06:41:02 PM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                        •  Thanks, I pretty much arrived at the same (0+ / 0-)

                          conclusion.

                          Nothing human is alien to me.

                          by WB Reeves on Sat Jul 20, 2013 at 07:31:16 PM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                        •  He's making a good point (1+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          DeadHead

                          when you make a mistake, admit it.

                          You want people to get along better than treat them better, which means if you say something that's wrong, just say it.

                          Right now, you have people who are your friends I am guessing at the site defending you , but from someone who frankly doens't have a horse in this race, now that you know, I don't see why you don't just say I was wrong.

                          What's wrong with doin gthat?

                          •  And what have I made a mistake about (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Wordsinthewind, WB Reeves

                            I clarified my comments based on new information, but make no mistake about this bruh.  Whether it was about Markos or not, my point is still valid and if people can't understand that, then they just want to argue for arguement's sake.  

                            And bruh, I don't know anyone here, let alone have any friends.  Friends don't exist in cyberspace.  I have them in real life where they belong.  

                            Did you have any other comments about this diary you wish to discuss?

                •  I will take it then that your (0+ / 0-)

                  answer is no, you don't want a cohesive, inclusive coalition, and you don't get to tell me what to do with my diary.  If you are that confused, that densed in your thinking that you are under the wayward impression that I am spreading false information, then either you didn't read my diary at all because no way would you ever be able to come to such a conclusion or you are just being fool hardy.

                  Have a nice evening Bob.

                  •  Another false assumption...or was that intended (0+ / 0-)

                    to be an insult?

                    If you're saying that my choice is your way or the highway, I'll take the highway. Nice cohesive, inclusive coalition ya got there.

                    You have a nice evening as well.

                    Others have simply gotten old. I prefer to think I've been tempered by time.

                    by Just Bob on Sat Jul 20, 2013 at 05:01:41 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                  •  I'm surprised he hasn't accused you of... (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    WB Reeves

                    attempting silence him or OPOL.  

                    This BS is why I stopped commenting for a while.  There is a small (in comparison to how many people visit the site) number of people that confuse disagreeing or even agreeing in a way they don't like as trying to silence them.  It has infiltrated and has adherents in different groups though one in particular seems to have a lot of them.  If you aren't part of one of the groups or cliques doesn't matter to them.  If you disagree you are automatically accused of being in the 'other' faction and accused of whatever stupid insult name currently in vogue and not banned yet.

                    A person's character is measured by how they treat everyone. Not just your pet group.

                    by Tempus Figits on Sat Jul 20, 2013 at 06:58:50 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

              •  I believe you have his answer. n/t (0+ / 0-)

                A person's character is measured by how they treat everyone. Not just your pet group.

                by Tempus Figits on Sat Jul 20, 2013 at 06:50:46 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

      •  You'll have a hard time trying to figure it out (0+ / 0-)

        without help. There's hundreds of comments to sort through.

        Here's the original diary:
        http://www.dailykos.com/...

        Here's the question:
        http://www.dailykos.com/...

        Here's Markos' answer:
        http://www.dailykos.com/...

        Here's one comment I liked:
        http://www.dailykos.com/...

        and here's another:
        http://www.dailykos.com/...

        Good luck.

        Others have simply gotten old. I prefer to think I've been tempered by time.

        by Just Bob on Sat Jul 20, 2013 at 02:04:41 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  Obama is not a progressive (0+ / 0-)

    Many of us thought he was years ago, but were apparently deceived.   Obama is right wing.   Not far right like McCain, but clearly right wing and promotes neoconservative policies.  

  •  There's really no other option left at this point: (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    kalmoth, Trix, sviscusi

    we need to impeach Kos.

    Non futuis apud Boston

    by kenlac on Sat Jul 20, 2013 at 01:43:22 PM PDT

  •  Missing emotional context (0+ / 0-)

    Language is a strange thing.

    There's a distinct lack of emotional context inherent in online communication. I went back to OPOL's diary and traced the chronology of some of the comments. I found some of the emotional context that led to your diary. Had I known that emotional context included charges of "Uncle Tom" I likely would not have have posted any comments to your diary. I didn't know that just as you didn't know the genesis of OPOL's diary. I guess that means we're both guilty of the same thing.

    Language is a strange thing. We miss so much and can communicate so little. It makes it hard, if not impossible, to have discussions such as this. The greater problem is that the emotional context that color our definitions of words and our intent and motivation would still be missing even if we were face to face.

    Language is a strange thing.

    Others have simply gotten old. I prefer to think I've been tempered by time.

    by Just Bob on Sun Jul 21, 2013 at 12:40:18 PM PDT

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